Shutdown: Obama and Republicans Trade Blame as Deadline Is Crossed

The federal government has begun to shut down

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Evan Vucci / AP

House Speaker John Boehner of Ohio walks to a House Republican Conference meeting to discuss the ongoing budget fight on Monday,

Federal agencies were ordered to beginning shutting down late Monday evening amid finger-pointing between Democrats and Republicans as to who was responsible for the United States’ first government stoppage in 17 years.

“Unfortunately, we do not have a clear indication that Congress will act in time for the President to sign a Continuing Resolution before the end of the day tomorrow, October 1, 2013,” said Sylvia M. Burwell, Director of the White House Office of Management and Budget in a memo. “Therefore, agencies should now execute plans for an orderly shutdown due to the absence of appropriations.”

Earlier Monday evening, the Senate killed the House of Representative’s continuing resolution that would have funded the government while delaying the Affordable Care Act by one year. That sent the debate back to the House, where Republican leaders moved to appoint negotiators to a joint House-Senate conference in order to work out the differences between the two chambers’ government-funding bills.

House Majority Leader Eric Cantor (R-Va.) tweeted that the House would have one final vote Monday evening pushing its latest Obamacare-delaying amendment while also requesting a conference with the Senate.

Throughout the night, Democrats and Republicans engaged in a battle of blame over the shutdown. “Republicans are still playing games,” said Senator Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) of the House Republicans’ conference plans. “We will not go to conference until we get a clean [continuing resolution].”

Speaker of the House John Boehner (R-Ohio), speaking before an earlier vote on the House floor, said that “all the Senate has to do is say yes and the government’s funded tomorrow.”

“They have lost their minds,” Reid responded after that vote. The Senate later stripped Obamacare-delaying language from the House bill and sent back to the House a “clean” continuing resolution.

From the White House briefing room early Monday evening, President Barack Obama said military paychecks and Social Security benefits would continue, but that many other government functions critical to economic growth would not. He said his signature health care reform law, which Republicans have been attempting to block as part of the shutdown standoff, would be implemented regardless. And he warned a shutdown would throw a “wrench” into the country’s fragile economic recovery.

“Of all the responsibilities the Constitution endows to Congress, two should be relatively simple: pass a budget and pay its bills,” Obama said. “A shutdown will have a very real economic impact, right away. The idea of putting Americans’ hard-earned progress at risk doesn’t make any sense.”

Obama called four top Congressional leaders, including Speaker of the House John Boehner (R-Ohio), Monday evening to discuss the shutdown. Per the White House, Obama “made clear to the Republican Leadership that they must act, as the Senate has, to pass the bill that funds the government for six weeks that doesn’t include any extraneous ideological riders.”

Boehner spokesman Brendan Buck said “the speaker told the president that Obamacare is costing jobs and that American families are being denied basic fairness when big businesses are getting exemptions that they are not. The call lasted nearly ten minutes.”

(MORE: Explaining the Shutdown to Your Kids)

House Republicans, for their part, aimed to take one more swipe at using the threat of a shutdown to scale back Obama’s signature healthcare reform law, voting earlier Monday evening on a continuing resolution that would fund the government but also delay the mandate that individuals buy health insurance, which is at the heart of the law.

“None of us want to shut down the federal government. No one’s advocating for that,” Utah Republican Rep. Chris Stewart said. “Many of us feel like this [health care] law is going to hurt millions of Americans and they’re going to avoid that if they can.”

However, Senate Democrats and the White House continued to insist that only a clean funding bill would pass muster.

“The bottom line is this: House Republicans should pass the Senate’s clean CR,” Democratic Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said.

At a news conference later on Monday, Boehner toward reporters bluntly: “That’s not going to happen.”

And after the Senate easily stripped out language from an earlier House-passed bill that would have delayed implementation of the entire health care law for a year, Republicans in the House blamed Democrats controlling the upper chamber for bringing the country closer to the brink.

“We think we’re in negotiation with the Senate. They’re the ones trying to run out the clock,” Oklahoma Republican Rep. Tom Cole. “As soon as we get their proposal we’re going to react right away, put it right back in their laps. … If they do something we’ll kick it back again.”

(MORE: Everything You Need to Know About a Shutdown)

Late Monday night, Obama signed a bill to ensure military personnel are still paid during a shutdown; the House-passed bill was passed in turn on a unanimous voice vote by the Senate on Monday.

But Obama reiterated Monday evening that he wouldn’t negotiate over the health care law, hours after his top spokesman said Republican demands for him to do so or risk a government shutdown amounted to “extortion.” The President said he was willing to negotiate over long-term budget issues, but taking aim at tea party Republicans, he said, “one faction of one party in one house of Congress in one branch of government doesn’t get to shut down the entire government just to re-fight the results of an election. Keeping the people’s government open is not a concession to meet.

“You don’t get to extract a ransom for doing your job, or doing what you should be doing anyway, or just because there is a law you don’t like,” Obama said. “The American people sent us here to govern.”

As the blame game between Obama and House Republicans came to resemble a ping-pong match, some senior Senate Republicans lamented that their party seemed to be playing a losing hand.

“We may do this for a day. We may do this for a week. We may do this for a month. It’s going to end up the same way,” Arizona Sen. John McCain said. “It ends by us not repealing Obamacare.”

The latest House bill, which the Senate rejected Monday just hours before a government shutdown took effect, marks Republicans’ third attempt to pare back Obamacare as a condition of keeping the government open, after voting to defund the entire law 10 days ago and voting Saturday to delay it for a year.

230 comments
joe44
joe44

I can not believe what is coming out of the Republicans mouths. Attempting to blame the Senate and the President for this mess they created. The rest of the world must be shaking there heads. The Govt. is shut down and Obama care is in effect. Seems to me the Republicans have failed.

sambrit10
sambrit10

I don't understand why the Republicans aren't taking full credit for the shutdown! Isn't eliminating government spending exactly what they're always saying they want to do? 

Or maybe people are realizing, when these things are taken away, exactly how much they actually WANT and NEED the things the government does? Is there anyone out there who thinks, for instance, that halting all food inspections or harbor security is a good idea?

Republicans, why give Dems all the credit? Let your constituents know that you've managed to do the very thing you've been promising to do! And ain't it great??


KevinClark
KevinClark

The Republicans are finally listening to their constituents and standing up to the liberal wing of the Dems, rather than just caving on every issue like they have done since 2008.  they know that caving on this will mean an exodus of their support.  They packed the battle and now must win.  If they lose they will lose the party to the Cruz, Paul and Amash coalition.  They lost 2 elections to a weak candidate largely because the libertarian and social moderates of the party stayed home.  

They have decided to change tactics and the media and Dems are not sure how to handle it since they have a record of capitulation.  Those who want them to cave again, be careful what you wish for.  The old guard is hanging on by a thread and if they are abandoned there will be an entire party of libertarians that will pull the ones on the side line back int the voting mix.  The Dems having to negotiate is only your second worst nightmare.  An entire party of true limited government, fiscal responsibility and dedicated to states rights and minimal regulation across the board is.  But the bright side is that they will agree on most social issues.

sallyedelstein
sallyedelstein

The blame for the shutdown can be squarely put on the Republicans for going to great lengths in their one sided fight against Obamacare. The Affordabe Care Act is a reality just like the government shutdown is now. 

Socialized medicine or anything that even looked or smelled like socialized medicine have long given the Republicans the chills and fever..In the chilly climate of the Cold War Republican lawmakers wanted to make sure that the US would not catch a bad case of socialized medicine -GOP prescription "to preserve our freedom" was to pull the plug on the bill much like they want to defund Obamacare today. An illustrated look  http://wp.me/p2qifI-1Hi  

haylz
haylz

. America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. - Abraham Lincoln


reallife
reallife

Soooo how is everybody coping with this catastrophe? LOL

You better wish the "American people" don't wise up to the fact that there are a lot of nonessential "employees" suckling off the government tlt, otherwise there'll be a lot of time posters out of work.

I guess you could go to work for Acorn and become an obamacare "navigator".

LOL

HudsonValleyTim
HudsonValleyTim

I hope that the 800K people who are now furloughed take a little snapshot of how they feel right now, and take that mental picture out as they walk into the polls in a few weeks.  Remember one thing from all this...every single member of the house of representatives will be called to account for their lack of governance this November, and it is up to us...we the people...to show these dysfunctional lunatics the door.

DonQuixotic
DonQuixotic

Stop the lie in its tracks:  If Obamacare is such a crippling failure then why won't the GOP just let it happen so the American public could see it's a failure and vote more of them in office into 2014 (so they could actually repeal it)?  The answer is pretty obvious.

DonQuixotic
DonQuixotic

In what world is it acceptable to shut down the government and hold the economy hostage simply because a bill you don't like (and that you've failed to repeal nearly 40 times) is about to go into effect?

NP042
NP042

American families are being denied basic fairness when big businesses are getting exemptions that they are not. 

Wait...he really said this?  Isn't this the same House that recently cut food stamp funding while continuing to include subsidies for big business in the latest farm bill?
Were other members of the House GOP all in the same room snickering and high-fiving each other?  What a disgrace.

GregoryHarris
GregoryHarris

Do yu'all remember, back in 2009, when negotiations on ACA were going on in Congress? I remember that the individual mandate, the part of ACA the Republicans want to stay for a year now, was the Republican mandate for passage of the law back in 2009.

Democrats were pushing a "single payer" mandate, much like Medicare, but the Republicans won their bid for the "individual mandate" ie. everybody signs up for ACA...a Republican idea ala Mitt Romney.

So why now is the Republican mandate to the law in 2009 now the issue of all this fuss today?? Answer... it's not the law Republicans are against...it's the man, and they come up with all these rhetorical excuses rather that just admit the truth. The Tea Party was elected to Congress to obstruct Barack Obama and his administration...period!

j45ashton
j45ashton

I think you're missing the main point here.  We have a long standing process in this country.  If a law is passed by the congress, signed by the president & declared constitutional by the supreme ct, it gets funded and goes into effect.  Then if changes are needed, the law gets amended after it goes into effect.  That's it.  Compromise at this point has never been a part of the process except for arguing about budgetary numbers.  Arguing about the content of laws that have already passed has never been considered a part of anything at this point.  To start re-legislating at this point whenever an opposing party feels like it would grind us to a standstill (just as it has today).  Can laws be repealed?  Sure.  Either by mutual consent (i.e. the Volstead act) or if the opposing party wins the congress & white house.  But after the laws have gone into effect.  What the GOP has done is derail a long standing democratic process through undemocratic means.  This is like a guerilla coup attempt where the GOP has taken the country hostage and is threatening harm if it doesn't get what it wants.  Worse than despicable.  With any luck, the GOP will destroy itself over this.  Any party that seeks to destroy the workings of our democracy deserves to be destroyed.  The President & the democrats shouldn't entertain this so-called compromise nonsense for a second. 

rivers
rivers

regard to the american history,bipartisan is an welcome political structure supported by american people. republic refuse to accept obamacare, republican argue that they worry that american people will suffer too much from Obamacare. i do believe that the republican specially worry about what they can do if obamacare  make a great success.

mantisdragon91
mantisdragon91

A parties loses two national elections and yet still feels that they can force their policies down the country throat. Only in GOP fantasyland.

MrObvious
MrObvious

800k government employees will have to go without pay. Congress don't. You'd think the tea party house members would insist on a shutdown if their paycheck were in any danger?


AlphaJuliette
AlphaJuliette

Way to go Congress.  Thanks for sticking it to We the People who really need you to act on our behalf.  No budget = no confidence = no recovery. 

Here's an idea; no budget, no pay.  I vote we defund your paychecks.

alfonso.carrino
alfonso.carrino

Congress still gets paid and still get their health benefits during the shut down! What a surprise! They have no consequences or conscience nor are they part of the mainstream public. They all need to go. "Democracy is good as long as you can keep it" founding father, Thomas Jefferson. Embarrassed by the holier than Thou attitude and self importance of government - vote them out. 

GorBismori
GorBismori

The problem, I think, is that to some, the ACA is a list of taxes, nothing more, that people have to pay. Of course, any social program, to succeed, must be supported by revenue, but that ACA is far more than just these: It aims to insure Americans, millions previously uninsured and uinsurable. Now, how about that?

T.P.Chia
T.P.Chia

The GOP has outrageously betrayed the American people and the nation's interest by acting like a political thug.  It has so abused the process of democratic politics by resorting to political extortion and blackmail at the expanse of the United States of America. It has succeeded in shutting down the federal government disgracefully and immorally. 

The American people, regardless of their political affiliations, can hardly be proud of GOP's political selfishness and  wickedness. The interests of the American people and the nation outweigh any political ambitions or achievements of a political party.

The GOP has shown its true colors, and it will pay a heavy price sooner or later.

ahandout
ahandout

Tax, tax, tax, tax, tax.

ObamaCare Taxes That Effect you.    

• 40% Excise Tax "Cadillac" on Premium Health Insurance Plans 2018

• An annual $63 fee levied by ObamaCare on all plans (decreased each year until 2017 when pre-existing conditions are eliminated) to help pay for insurance companies covering the costs of high-risk pools.

• Medicine Cabinet Tax In Effect
Over the counter medicines no longer qualified as medical expenses for flexible spending accounts (FSAs), health reimbursement arrangements (HRAs), health savings accounts (HSAs), and Archer Medical Saving accounts (MSAs).

• Additional Tax on HSA/MSA Distributions
Health savings account or an Archer medical savings account, penalties for spending money on non-qualifed medical expenses. 10% to 20% in the case of a HSA and from 15% to 20% in the case of a MSA.

• Flexible Spending Account Cap 2013
Contributions to FSAs are reduced to $2,500 from $5,000.

• Medical Deduction Threshold tax increase 2013
Threshold to deduct medical expenses as an itemized deduction increases to 10% from 7.5%.

• Individual Mandate (the tax for not purchasing insurance if you can afford it) 2014
Starting in 2014, anyone not buying "qualifying" health insurance must pay an income tax surtax at a rate of 1% or $95 in 2014 to 2.5% in 2016 on profitable income above the tax threshold. The total penalty amount cannot exceed the national average of the annual premiums of a "bronze level" health insurance plan on ObamaCare exchanges.

Here's the IRS version, enjoy

http://www.irs.gov/uac/Affordable-Care-Act-Tax-Provisions

shepherdwong
shepherdwong

@KevinClark "...there will be an entire party of libertarians that will pull the ones on the side line back int the voting mix."

“There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.” ― John Rogers 

KemWills
KemWills

@DonQuixotic   " IF "  Hasn't anyone else read it? Yes the answer is pretty obvious. read it. and NO I'm not saying the law is bad or good.

Diecash1
Diecash1

It's no longer a bill. It's a law that has been argued before the Supreme Court.

AlphaJuliette
AlphaJuliette

@GregoryHarris Why are the Republicans against the individual mandate?  The answer is they aren't.  They are opposed to President Obama.  THAT is the real issue behind all this.

MrObvious
MrObvious

@GregoryHarris 

Remember when GOPers were kinda sane. Back before the courted the Christianists that lead to their loss in 2006 or before the tea party regression that lead to the loss in 2012.

I have to strain myself to figure out when they ever were sane sane, but at least they always tried to keep their crazy uncle under checks.

But circa Bush years they decided to go bonkers. And a resurgence in 2010 and gerrymandered themselves into a lock. But on a national level I doubt they will see the presidency in the foreseeable future.

reallife
reallife

Oh honey... you must've skipped that "checks and balances" class... there is a something that you conveniently forgot... the house was elected also... yeah I know who cares about that minor point, right?

Lol

HudsonValleyTim
HudsonValleyTim

How about we just furlough the house of representatives?  Their contracts are all up-for-renewal in a few weeks.

AlphaJuliette
AlphaJuliette

@GorBismori The ACA is law.  You may like it or you may not (I don't like it).  But you cannot hold it hostage to extort concessions from the rest of the government. 

The proper legislative procedure is to keep the ACA separate from the budget debate (focus on reducing the deficit for example) and tweak it to improve the good points and fix the bad as time goes on.  If, in the end, the ACA proves unworkable or unsustainable THEN repeal it.  

What is happening in D.C. is bad for We the People. 

ahandout
ahandout

@T.P.Chia  Extortion, blackmail, bribes...That would be the Democrat Party's dirty deals in forcing through Obamacare. 

AlphaJuliette
AlphaJuliette

@ahandout Ok, fine.  Now, what to do about this?  My impression is that you don't like any of the above.  But is this any reason to do financial damage to a struggling and recovering economy just because?

The answer is no.  No, they shouldn't hold the budget and this nation hostage because there is a law they don't like.  They should go through the proper legislative channels and either fix it or repeal it there.

bobcn
bobcn

@ahandout

My healthcare coverage cost is going down!  For me the ACA is a godsend.  Of course, I live in a state (California)  that's working to provide quality services to all of it's citizenry -- not just the wealthy ones.

Taxes, taxes, taxes.  Really?  Do you have such a short memory that you can't remember the ruinous health insurance price escalations that were happening just when the gopers thought they had succeeded in killing the ACA?  I believe that they were the final proof that was needed to push the ACA over the goal line and into law.

Gopers complain that the ACA has too many pages when printed and is too complicated.  I'll help you out with understanding over 50% of the law:  Over half of the law is dedicated to cost reductions and containment.


allthingsinaname
allthingsinaname

@ahandout  

You do know that excess FSA accounts go to the company and not the Federal government? That the fast majority of people probably do not exceed $2500 in FSA accounts, and there has always been a penalties for using FSA accounts for non medical or approved expenses?

KevinClark
KevinClark

@shepherdwong @KevinClarkYup thats what progressives do.  Can't argue facts and can't accept that some just don't agree with them so they just make fun of them.

Openminded1
Openminded1

@Diecash1 I see you are not only a moron, you are a coward. so typical of a bleeding heart liberal . not much of a man are you? If you are married to a women keep a close eye on her.

shepherdwong
shepherdwong

@reallife "... the house was elected also..."

The House would pass the clean CR if John Boehner wasn't running scared from the minority Teatard caucus. The Founders assumed the product of certain "checks and balances":

"The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism." - George Washington 

mantisdragon91
mantisdragon91

@reallife So why is it only 30 congress critters that are holding the entire country hostage?

RimKitty
RimKitty

@ahandout @T.P.Chia Hate to remind you, but the Republicans did exactly that with Medicare Part D. The difference is that the Dems lost the fight and moved on without stamping their feet and crying like babies.

mantisdragon91
mantisdragon91

@ahandout @T.P.Chia Actually that would be what the GOP is doing now. Since the country rejected their ideas twice, they now resort to terrorist tactics.

manlyman
manlyman

Recovering economy. That one always gets me.

ahandout
ahandout

@bobcn @ahandout  The insurance costs are going to go up.  It will happen under Obamacare.  Insurance companies are the suppliers of Obamacare.

Health insurance costs continue to go higher and higher in California. 

You can pay a lower monthly premium under Obamacare, but your out of pocket expense will soon make up for those if you have to go to the doctor.

You cannot regulate costs.  Healthcare is a market.  Regulations increase costs, always.  Now what do you mean by containment? 

shepherdwong
shepherdwong

@KevinClark "Can't argue facts and can't accept that some just don't agree with them so they just make fun of them."

What "facts"?

AlphaJuliette
AlphaJuliette

@manlyman Well, truth be told, the economy has recovered very nicely for the Too-Big-To-Fail investment corporations, the investors on Wall St., Corporations in general, and the CEO's of said corporations who have received obscene raises in their annual compensation and benefits packages.  Yes, very well indeed.

Meanwhile, back in the real world, We the People, you know, middle America and the struggling 47%'ers, who have seen their compensation increase by 5% since 1979, have actually seen their paychecks shrink since the 2008-09 recession, seen benefits packages reduced or eliminated, have endured higher cost of living across the board and now, cut-backs in full time and even part time employment by corporations trying to avoid the ACA.

That's SOME recovery all right. 

KemWills
KemWills

"The ACA requires that insurers can no longer kick people off of coverage if their healthcare costs are too expensive"??? Nothing in the bill states that...

ensure that health benefits established as essential not be subject to denial to individuals against their wishes on the basis of the individuals age or expected length of life or of the individuals’ present or predicted disability, degree of medical dependency, or quality of life.

It is 2409 pages I may have missed something but I don't think so.

ahandout
ahandout

@shepherdwong @ahandout  Except that is was the Clinton administration that went after banks for "red lining" and forced them to loan to minorities who couldn't afford the loans.  Then there were those government regulated entities: Fannie and Freddie who bought up those bad loans and enabled the brokers to go right back and do it again.  So, government regulations caused the mortgage meltdown. And it's STILL being passed on to consumers. 

You read all the BS you want.

You are very naïve when it comes to economic matters.

Paul Krugman and economists of his ilk caused the devaluation of the dollar, and passed on all their failed policies onto the backs of consumers.  That's why Oil will never fall below $100 per barrel unless the dollar strengthens.

Here Krugman praises the F ing of the US consumer in order to gain a few manufacturing jobs, which by the way are low paying jobs.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/20/opinion/20krugman.html?_r=0

shepherdwong
shepherdwong

@ahandout "Another economic fact:  When regulations increase a company's costs, they pass the cost on to the consumer."

Your facts are flawed. I just gave you an example of the cost of regulation - refunds of overcharging by insurance companies to their customers - that was borne completely by the companies. Meanwhile, the cost of insurance to consumers continues to decline due to government regulation, i.e. Obamacare. 

But you do bring up the cost of regulation and who bears it, which isn't quite as neat as your Econ 101 textbook. The cost of failing to regulate the bansters' high-risk trading was $trillions of dollars and millions of jobs, a cost that would have been much worse for the workers of the world and catastrophic for the banks, had government not stepped-in at the last possible moment. Try reading a book or two that goes beyond the pedantic, you might learn something.

http://www.amazon.com/Return-Depression-Economics-Paul-Krugman/dp/0393320367

ahandout
ahandout

@shepherdwong @ahandout 

Apparently you are so enamored with regulations that when you read " Regulations increase costs, always" your knee jerks up and slaps your reaction center.  I am not against regulations; I am not a laissez faire capitalist.  I am stating an economic fact.  So, if you want a better economy, you have to minimize and eliminate unnecessary regulations. 

Another economic fact:  When regulations increase a company's costs, they pass the cost on to the consumer.

Here's what the article, I posted, talks about:

Regulations appear to drag more on the bottom line of smaller firms than of larger ones, the study concluded after comparing compliance costs to the firms' total stock market capitalization. As the report notes, “regulatory costs consumed 6.7 percent of Honeywell’s market cap ($50 billion), compared to just 1.6 percent for General Electric ($221 billion), even though GE reported higher regulatory spending. The same was true for energy, where ExxonMobil had the lowest share of costs/market cap, after reporting the highest regulatory burdens, $2.7 billion.”



shepherdwong
shepherdwong

@ahandout "If you ever opened an economic textbook, you might have a clue."

Lots of textbooks, like the "experts" who write them get lots of stuff wrong. For instance, economists from the Chicago School have been wrong about just about everything before, during and after the CDS debacle. In any event, only an macroeconomic illiterate would argue against regulation in general since no market could exist without it. You can look it up in your Econ 101 textbook, no matter who wrote it.

tom.litton
tom.litton

@ahandout @tom.litton @bobcnSorry, your rhetoric was confusing.  

New cars don't pollute because they are required to not pollute.  If you remove that regulation they would start polluting, because it's cheaper.

Unless your saying you would rather have the regulation on the dealership to ensure the cars they sell don't pollute.  But then you would need more regulations detailing how a person can buy a car out of state and still ensure it doesn't pollute. 

I'm not sure what your thought process is here.  Is it that you think car manufacturers are good hearted and won't build cars that pollute without any regulation, or that people won't buy them if they did, or you don't care about controlling pollution?

Furthermore, how do you know obama care doesn't have the most efficient set of regulations possible while still protecting the consumer? 

Let me be clear.  I don't think it does.  But that doesn't mean the law is a bad law.  It just means the regulations should be reviewed and modified periodically as we gain more experience with the new system.  It certainly doesn't mean the government should be shutdown because of it.

ahandout
ahandout

@tom.litton @ahandout @bobcn  Don't be a dolt.  I never said to drop all regulations. Regulations can become outdated and inefficient. 

Example:  New cars don't pollute.  They are equipped with computers, fuel injection and catalytic converters.  They don't need to be taken to a service station and have the owner pay for an emission check and a smog certificate, yet the state of California STILL requires you to pay for both.  That wastes time and money, and takes $100 out of your pocket for nothing. 

ahandout
ahandout

@HudsonValleyTim Our government has created a situation in California where people are allowed to come here illegally, steal resources, use the emergency rooms to the point where dozens have had to close their doors, AND you ask me how to fix it?

Los Angeles actually tried to issue an order to police to NOT impound the vehicles of unlicensed illegal aliens.  But you would still face punishment.

We have laws that the government along with past and present presidents have ignored, and NOW they want to enforce more laws on their own citizens.  We have been asking for years to enforce the immigration laws and have been ignored.

What has been created is a situation where American citizens are forced to obey the law, but illegals are not.  That is intolerable.

My real reaction is a one finger salute.

tom.litton
tom.litton

@ahandout @bobcn And when people die from infections because that regulation about keeping the ER clean went away, can they be sued?  How much?  How much will that add to the insurance premiums. 

Regulations are there for a reason.  You just can't drop them. 

HudsonValleyTim
HudsonValleyTim

So, what do you suggest as an alternative to cover those individuals for whom health insurance is simply unaffordable?  Should they simply go to the emergency room every time they have a sore throat?  Our emergency room is about to shutter...not because of lack-of-business, but because they are inundated by non-emergency cases from uninsured individuals. 

caqde
caqde

@ahandout @bobcn  Maybe you should learn to read the law. Its 906 pages not 2700. The ORIGINAL unpassed law was 2700 but that was before 1800 pages of junk were thrown out and it was finalized and passed as a law. If you still think it is 2700 pages I wonder if you even know what is still in the law?

 Oh and if you want to read it here it is -> http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-111publ148/content-detail.html . A lot shorter than the 2700pages you think it is.

TimJohnson
TimJohnson

@ahandout @bobcn So to drive down costs of healthcare we should make it illegal?  By god, that's brilliant!

idknonsense
idknonsense

@bobcn @idknonsense @ahandout This is true in some regards, and its why we need the court to be the objective interpreters.  Unfortunately, our over-burdened judicial system will continue to suffocate under its case load if judicial vacancies remain and if draconian, inefficient laws aren't redressed.

ahandout
ahandout

60%@Thomas[NL] @ahandout  California is a corrupt state.  Los Angeles is the capital of hit and run drivers.  The Los Angeles School District has a dropout rate of 60%.  A simple traffic ticket will cost you $560.  Mayors in some cities vote themselves million dollar salaries and pensions.  Yes, it is just like a communist state.

Thomas[NL]
Thomas[NL]

@ahandout @Thomas[NL] I didn't know California was a communist state :).  Didn't expect that as even Obama is more right wing than any European government.

As for the nanny state, no the Netherlands is not a nanny state, nor is any other country in Europe (I know, I live in Europe).




idknonsense
idknonsense

@ahandout @idknonsense @bobcn No, I have never filed taxes for a small business.  Yes, I have dealt with the DMV.

And yes, Washington is elite.  That's exactly why so many there welcome the fat cat lobbyists and incessantly push for whatever industry's deregulation.  Banking/finance, energy, NRA, etc.; pick any one that comes to mind.  The people's voice is being drowned out by big business's reckless demands for ever higher profits.

"That's why they exempt themselves from their own laws." - Here, I assume you are referring to the rumor that President Obama, Congress, and  staffers are "exempt" from the ACA.  That is a myth; rather, its propaganda being pushed from the right.  Federal employees are subject to the same ACA provisions as everyone else.

ahandout
ahandout

@Thomas[NL] @ahandout   I never said that women shouldn't be insured, or people with pre-existing conditions.  I favor healthcare reform.  Obamacare is NOT reform.  We have an aging population; THAT is the number one issue.  Politicians will not touch that issue, because it means making REAL reforms.

Meanwhile, let's define the nanny state.  California, and state like New York want to tell you how to live.  You can't buy a large soda.  You can't have a mylar balloon. You can be fined for smoking a cigarette, they want to outlaw firepits on beaches.  The constant propaganda to conserve, when 80% of water and power are used by industry and agriculture. 

 Nanny state is a term of British origin (and primary use) that conveys a view that a government or its policies are overprotective or interfering unduly with personal choice.[1] The term "nanny state" likens government to the role that a nanny has in child rearing. An early usage of the term comes from Conservative British MP Iain Macleod who referred to "what I like to call the nanny state" in his column "Quoodle" in the December 3, 1965, edition of The Spectator.[2] It is defined by Dictionary.com as "a government perceived as authoritarian, interfering, or overprotective" and has also come to be associated with intrusive practices of having the government basically "baby" the populace by being in charge, in control of, and even financing all of its needs. Some governance claimed to represent a nanny state are those that emerge from application of public health, risk management of health and safety policies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanny_state

Thomas[NL]
Thomas[NL]

@ahandout You have to define the 'nanny state', because I don't feel like I'm in one. It seems to me that your land of the free had become the land of the freetime because some politicians can't handle the fact the democracy isn't always in your favour.

Also interesting to see you support a healthcare system that can actually say to a person 'no, we won't insure you, because you are too expensive', or 'because you are a woman'.

And about that great country.... well your great country doesn't have a functional goverment, has a relative higher debt than Greece and is being overtaken by China in production. I'm not anti-America, there are still great things about and in your country, important things, but claiming you're so great only shows you have to enforce the idea by words because you're lacking action.

ahandout
ahandout

 Americans value freedom over the nanny state.  That's why we live here and are the greatest country on earth, and it's why most of the world wants to live here.

Thomas[NL]
Thomas[NL]

As a Dutchman I have to say bobcn has it right. We do have regulated healthcare here in the Netherlands, it's not paradise, but we know we can get help if we need it, without being disciminated.

I'm amazed a lot of Americans only look at the price of things instead of what you get for it. There is a difference between 'making sure everybody has basic care' and 'me, me, me'.

ahandout: your final remark only shows you don't have an argument left and you reside to calling names (and btw, professors don't always have it right, that's the whole thing about the academic world: there are different opions).

bobcn
bobcn

@idknonsense @ahandout @bobcn 

The majority of regulations being passed by the Congress and in the states are regulations designed by businesses and lobbyists  with the purpose of protecting themselves from aggrieved customers or from potential competitors. 

ahandout
ahandout

@bobcn @ahandout  No, it's from my econ 101 professor.  I thought that you could relate.  It's a simple exercise in market economics.

You have two provisions that would take two pages; the ACA is 2700 pages.

Don't try and negotiate now.  What I like or didn't like...you didn't bother to ask. Democrats pushed this crap through all by themselves.

ahandout
ahandout

@idknonsense @ahandout @bobcn  Have you ever filed taxes for a small business?  Dealt with the DMV?  I am not arguing for no regulations. 

And get a clue, Washington is the elite.  That's why they exempt themselves from their own laws.

idknonsense
idknonsense

@ahandout @bobcn Regulations are vital to the economy, social mobility, and the protection and well-being of citizens.  The absence of regulation would consolidate resources, allow gross abuses of economic and political power, and subject the masses to the discretion of the elite.  Regulation is necessary to every aspect of the economy.

There is no completely deregulated or laissez-faire economy and there has never been such.

bobcn
bobcn

@ahandout @bobcn

The primary ACA regulation on the insurance companies is that they must spend at least 80 percent of their income on providing actual health care (not marketing, not bonuses, etc.).  Do you have a problem with that?

The ACA requires that insurers can no longer screen out people who need healthcare.  Do you have a problem with that?

The ACA requires that insurers can no longer kick people off of coverage if their healthcare costs are too expensive.  Do you have a problem with that?

Those are all regulations that  make the US a better county for Americans.

"Let's take an example:  Laws that regulate Marijuana make the price of pot very expensive."

Are you taking your economic example from High Times, or from personal experience?   Or are you just making things up again?

ahandout
ahandout

@bobcn @ahandout  BS Bob.  Those countries tax the crap out of their citizens in order to subsidize healthcare. 

Let's take an example:  Laws that regulate Marijuana make the price of pot very expensive.  Without those laws, it's easy to grow and abundant.

It's not quite the same with healthcare, but regulations and having more paperwork, in order to comply with those regulations will only add to costs.

bobcn
bobcn

@ahandout @bobcn

"You cannot regulate costs.  Healthcare is a market.  Regulations increase costs, always."

Nope.  Virtually all 1st world countries provide REGULATED healthcare that exceeds the US in both quality and the percentage of their citizenry that are covered.  Take a break from shouting "we're number one, we're number one" and look around.  You'll find that your claim is demonstrably false.