Egypt’s Nightmare Scenario Draws Nearer

Obama tries to avert an explosion of violence in the Arab world's most populous country

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Rick Friedman / DPA / Corbis

President Barack Obama makes a statement on the situation in Egypt from the driveway of his vacation house in Chilmark, on the island of Martha's Vineyard, Mass., on Aug. 15, 2013

However awful Egypt’s political crisis may appear after the bloody government crackdown that left more than 500 protesters dead, the worst may be yet to come. Islamists enraged by the military-led government’s brutal tactics could retaliate on a scale that touches off an even bloodier phase to the struggle, regional experts say.

“I think a cycle of violence is coming,” says the Century Foundation’s Michael Wahid Hanna. “This will likely take the form of insurgent tactics, including possibly suicide bombings and assassinations.”

And that, in turn, would provoke more harsh tactics by the government. “Further violence will push greater repression and authoritarian behavior,” Hanna adds. “De-escalation, let alone democratic transition, is a long way off.” And all in a country already veering toward potential economic collapse and awash in arms.

(MORE: Cairo Counts Its Dead After Egypt’s Crackdown on the Muslim Brotherhood)

The implications for the Middle East, and for American security, are alarming. Turmoil in the region, from Syria to Libya to Iraq, has energized radical Islamists allied with al-Qaeda. Already in Egypt, Islamists in the Sinai peninsula are growing increasingly violent — troubling Israel’s government enough that it staged an apparent drone strike against militants there.

However it might disturb Washington, Egypt’s generals may welcome open conflict with their Islamist rivals. “The [Muslim] Brotherhood has always lost against the Egyptian military,” says Gregory Aftandilian, senior fellow for the Middle East at the Center for National Policy. “So that’s the historical memory of the Egyptian officer corps: ‘Whenever there was a confrontation, we’ve won.’”

The Egyptian military already talks as though it faces an insurgency: on Wednesday it said its crackdown had been a response to “terrorist acts” and a “criminal plan to demolish the pillars of the Egyptian state.” There have been some provocations by Islamists who don’t share the Muslim Brotherhood’s official credo of nonviolence. But the brutality of the military’s response could radicalize even pacifists within the movement.

(PHOTOS: Clashes Erupt in Egypt as Protestors March Against Earlier Bloodshed)

The Obama Administration is desperate to calm the situation — not only in the name of human rights but also, as President Obama noted on Thursday, America’s strategic interest in a stable Egypt. No one in Washington believes a crackdown will lead to stability.

But in the region, that view has powerful adherents. And Abdul Fattah al-Sisi doesn’t care about America’s opinions next to those of his financial benefactors in Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates. As one Arab official recently told TIME, there’s plenty of support in Riyadh and Dubai for an effort to crush Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood once and for all.

That’s why Obama’s diplomatic efforts might be better directed not at Cairo but at its wealthy allies in the region. “I think it’s the Saudis who have the leverage right now,” says Aftandilian, a former State Department Middle East analyst. That means Obama has to convince the Saudis that a crackdown will lead to instability and violence that could inspire radicals who threaten their own kingdom. “The Saudis fear an [Islamist] backlash. If the U.S. is smart, we can play to that fear,” Aftandilian says, by telling the Saudis, “the longer this instability goes on, there could be ramifications for you guys as well.”

And, by extension, for the U.S.

MORE: Viewpoint: Egyptian ‘Liberals’ Are Out for Blood

71 comments
lovely
lovely

The American administration is pouring the oil onto the flame by taking one side. Obama is sending wrong messages that encourage the Muslim Brotherhood to continue their extreme acts “attacking state buildings, burning churches, use of weapons in the streets …) He continues asking to release Morsi who is being questioned according to a lawful order by the Egyptian General Attorney and facing criminal charges that started even before he was removed from power.

The Egyptians are aware of what is best for them. I advise the American administration to mind its own business and stop intervening in other countries business and stop playing the role of the soldier of the world. This policy has proven complete failure (look at Iraq).

If the US wants stability in the region, it should let go its project in the area and give hands to the interim administration in Egypt to control the terroristic movements. This used to be the slogan of the US for the last decades “fighting terrorism”. The clear support of the largest Arab countries couldn’t be in vain. These people know their own good. Obama administration should find something else to do if they are really away from what is happening.

ReneDemonteverde
ReneDemonteverde

In all this never heard nor read this Ditherer in Chief speak in defense of the Coptic Christians who are being persecuted harassed and even killed for their beliefs. He declared himself as Christian but never did do anything in defense of his professed religion. Rather it is the Muslims and Islam he is quick to defend.

Wiggymaster
Wiggymaster

Islam is incompatible with democracy.  Show me a Muslim country that protects the interests of non-Muslims/minorities, and I'll show you a Unicorn.

And if you believe the US is to blame for the hatred between Sunnis and Shias, then you'll not be surprised to learn the US was also responsible for the Crusades, the rise of the Ottoman Empire, and the Holocaust.  Oh wait; according to Muslims, that didn't exist.  

kolagunta
kolagunta

The whole Muslim world is in turmoil. The reason as everyone knows is the historic animosity between the two Muslim sects, shias and sunnis. Since the 30's of the 20th century the US and the west were exploiting the Muslim world for the liquid gold. They played one sect against another and in the process the animosity which was more like a family feud developed into a conflict. Since the Arab Spring it has turned into a battle. Interference by the US has only turned worse. Iraq where the US claims to have solved the problem has again erupted. Libya is bound to follow suit.  Af-Pak area is also in the same melee. The only best way for settling this shia-sunni war is to leave the field to these sects with no interference. They will fight among themselves and soon come to a geo-political solution. Non Muslim world should should keep off the Muslim world except for a minimum trade relations so that the Muslim common man does survive. All other relations and connections should be cut off. 

RobertNguyen
RobertNguyen

Well now we have our own Syria in the hatching phase...

No government that can or should stay in power after killing 500+ of their own people and injuring more than 2000 in one crack down incident. For once, I agree with Rand Paul and Sen. McCann to stop aid to Egypt until the situation becomes more transparent. 

NoNonsense
NoNonsense

Well Egypt has the same future as Libya to look forward too,,and Obama is helping all he can.


Obama, with all the heft of the United States behind him, stood by helplessly and haplessly as Syria drifted in a civil war of almost unspeakable savagery. Only then, when it became beast versus beast, did Obama commit America to one side in the battle: America is now backing al Qaeda fighters in Syria. That means that our tax dollars and weapons are going to people who behead priests, rape women, and murder children.

Just today, yet another video emerged showing the type of people Obama has committed us to help. The video shows Obama-supported militants presiding over the execution of two very young-looking teenage boys whom the militants accuse of supporting the Assad regime. The execution took place in northern Syria. The executioners were an al-Qaeda affiliated group that calls itself the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant. The murdered boys were from Nubul and Zahra, in the Shiite-majority region of Aleppo.

russiviking
russiviking

The Military government ( the Egyptian people) must stop these MYWAY or NOWAY bullhood brothers at any cost !

KGelner
KGelner

Gee Time, have you missed the part where Morsi supporters organized rape squads to attack women protestors?  Or how Morsi supporters have killed HUNDREDS of copt christians and burnt down churches well before this crackdown?

The Muslim Brotherhood is the one spoiling for a fight, because they think they can get people to back down.  It's good to see the people of Egypt backed by the military are having none of ti.


Rami
Rami

The media in the US has it wrong for the most part, and I'm not sure why.  As an Egyptian who knows what is actually going on there, the pro-Muslim Brotherhood/Morsi supporters started the violence, vandalism, and murdering people, AFTER WHICH THEN did the military intervene to stop them.  They're not innocent victims as they are proclaiming. They're not protesting peacefully as is being portrayed here.  They are brainwashed savages who are willing die and kill others for the cause to be an Islamist country, where minorities such as women and Coptic Christians won't have equal rights. The Egyptian military needs as much support as possible so that order can be restored and these terrorists either get locked up or get to meet their maker.

Karl
Karl

I've already called for cutting off aid, it's a coup - there's a law about US aid after coups - We need to do something that the French did in Mali after the trashing of Timbuktu. The world has an interest in the safety of the objects stored in Cairo's Museum. An interest that supersedes the right of any conflict to imperil them for future generations. The UN should send blue helmets in to guard those treasures and arm those blue helmets. A thousand years from now no on will care about the cause only bemoan the fact that Egypt's treasures were destroyed in the early second millennium A.D., akin to the fire that destroyed the ancient world's written history in the fire that destroyed the Library of Alexandria. And second we need to do something that until WWI Russia and other European powers did, we need to protect Egypt's Christians. The Egyptians can sort this out any way they want but we need a mixed force from around the world to protect another Egyptian treasure, 10 million Coptic Christians would predate Islam in Egypt by half a millennium.

Amit-Atlanta-USA
Amit-Atlanta-USA

Those of you who are horrified by the barbarity of the violence, death & destruction just go You Tube and check out the following (all committed by radical Islamists, some of whom even call themselves freedom fighters!):

a) Mumbai attacks of 26/11 perpetuated by Laskhkar e-Toiba and the Pakistani army

b) The Beslan School Massacre (Chechan Rebels)

c) The Moscow Theater Siege (Chechan Rebels)

d) The be-heading of Indian soldiers at India-Pak border  (by Pakistani army men)

e) Burning alive scores of Hindu pilgrims, icnl. many women & children (perpetuated by Indian Muslims)

f) The London 7/7 bombings (by UK born Muslims of Pakistani origin)

g) The killing of the Dutch Film Maker

h) The barbarism by Muslims on fellow Muslims in Syria, Pakistan, Nigeria, Iraq, Iran-Iraq, Bangladesh (by West Pakistanis in the 1971 war of liberation) etc.

Most of the barbarity that we have seen on the streets of Cairo pales in comparison with the above!

Amit-Atlanta-USA
Amit-Atlanta-USA

MB has called "FRIDAY THE DAY OF ANGER"

And for the hapless Coptic Christians/minorities and Secular minded Egyptian Muslims it's nothing but "A DAY OF 'D'ANGER"

The fact of the matter is, while most people are horrified at the barbaric violence, destruction, the radical Islamists crave for more of it (NOT merely in Egypt, but all over the world incl. Pakistan, Nigeria, Yemen, Syria, Libya, Tunisia, Algeria, even India, US & Europe).

Often times, the parents, wives HAPPILY send their children, husbands NOT merely in harms way, but also on MARTYRDOM OPERATIONS, thinking that the dead will lead a wonderful life with ALLAH (if NOT the 79 virgins!).

In that sense, the radical MB only wants greater bloodshed, destruction.

It's a pity that we Americans, Indians, Europeans apply the same yardstick of fairness, justice, equality, compassion and even feelings of horror to these radicals who live NOT in the present, but in the non-existent future  (with Allah).

The greatest tragedy is this pervasive thinking is NOT merely limited to the Koranic educated religious zealots, but at least to a lesser extent by highly educated, much pampered, "so-called" moderate Muslims such as CNN/Times' own Mr. Fareed Zakaria.....when it comes to blaming all the ills of the Muslim world on Christians, Hindus, Jews, Buddhists in short all non-Muslims.

Unless there is a serious INTROSPECTION within the Muslim world, and Muslim communities the world over there's NOT the slightest chance of Muslims ever advancing themselves as all other world religions indeed have (inspite of their not so admirable past!).

It's a pity that Secular minded Muslims who don't subscribe to the radicalism espoused by their brethren don't stand a chance in shaping the future of their community........given the JUSTIFICATION/COVER provided to radical activities by "OTHERWISE" influential people like CNN's Mr. Fareed Zakaria, Huma Abedin, Rashad Hussain, Imam Rauf, those in CAIR & ISNA ( at least as far American and Indian Muslims are concerned).

Wish these people could take a leaf out of the writings (on both Islam and the West) by some truly precious Muslim gems such as Mr. Irfan Hussain, Nadeem Paracha, Kamran Shafi, I A Rehman, Late Murtaza Rizvi, all columnists for radical/terrorist supporting Pakistan's #1 English daily "DAWN". These people have been doing yeoman service trying to infuse some commonsense and purpose for a nation (Pakistan) infested with radicalism from top to bottom..........often times at grave danger to their lives!

It appears that that's indeed WISHFUL THINKING!

ShamsAci
ShamsAci

 When majority people of a country begin to hate the national forces for their rude and brutal deeds in or outside the country, it becomes impossible for the forces to get back their positive image, which stands as a big tragedy in the life of military forces of any country of the world

Anon24
Anon24

men need to stop resolving their problems with violence, we've seen time and after time it just leads to death, etc........start having women setup into places of power or just overall educating them so that we discuss our conflicts without killing others

BrahmandamLakshmiNarasimhaMurthy
BrahmandamLakshmiNarasimhaMurthy

Saudi Arabia and UAE are in the forefront of escalating conflict in Syria and Egypt.They want to fight their wars in these countries so that their dictatorships remain safe.Arab spring and the aftermath have already shown that their strategy is not working and everywhere Islamists and AlQuaida are gaining.It is just a question of time before Saudi Arabia and UAE will also be engulfed in the flame which they have lit.

eagle11772
eagle11772

The world has always been filled with violence and the occasional revolution.  The U.S. isn't going to end that, nor should we.  What would Americans have said if some Europeans sent a "peace-keeping force" in 1775 to end our Revolution ?  (Alright, the British sent a "peace-keeping force" to America in 1775 and look how well that worked out for them).  We should step back, not interfere, and let events play out for themselves.

RamonRoman
RamonRoman

A propos the videos being shown about the Muslim Brotherhood,  Wouldn't it be fair to show a video showing the " The friendly American involvement in the affairs of all the countries of the world in the 20th century and at  the beginning of this century?".

brad9383656
brad9383656

Arabs can't blame America for all the world's problems. America gets far more blame for events in the Middle East than its policies and power warrant, while nations like Russia rarely face the consequences.

RamonRoman
RamonRoman

No matter what mr Kerry says to the world about his pseudo condemnation of what is happening in Egypt. No matter what the winner of the Nobel Peace price, mr Obama, says trying to look worry in his pseudo condemnation of the bloody Egytian military, the fact is that the American government again was part of an overthrowing of a legitimate government in the name of very strange and occult, so it seems to the naïve and ignorant people, but so clear to many, forces that have an agenda commanded from a bloody book. 

The fact is that the MAJORITY of Egytians elected a government, with Islamic people in it, to govern them for the years that their constitution commands. Regretfully, this government is a danger, no to its people, but to a people recognized for being war criminals, that do not obey the resolution of the UN, and for keeping a concentration camp for more of 40 years. So, DEJA VU again. When the American see their interests in danger, this include the occult government already mentioned, the American government will do anything from the shadows or directly, to change the wishes of the majority of the people of those tragic countries. You saw it in Nicaragua, in el Salvador, in Chile, in Iran, in so many places that is impossible to name them all. The last one was Venezuela, where the American government recognized the same day the de facto government that overthrew the legitimate president, HUGO CHAVEZ, but then the majority of the Venezuelan people brought back in a counter coup, to the dismay of the USA government, Therefore, the only solution for the Egyptian problem is to let the Morsi government to finish his term, to avoid a bloodshed that has no end in the near future.

paulgeorges
paulgeorges

One may regret the death of people but then to complain movement "Muslim brothers" there is a big step. I'm not sure themself they complain Copts killed,  the burned  churches  . Build big Caliphate is their purpose, and their behavior with people of different faith and thoughts are revealed to the world. The wounded serpent  inspire pity but will he be thankfulness to  people who help him , to ones that will support him  ?  Or will he bites the hand who help him to prove his kind of "recognition"?     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TX4RK8bj2W0



arvay
arvay

The Germans have a word for it -- Totentanz -- the Dance of Death.

The jiggling corpse in this case is our misbegotten Mideast policy since the end of WWII -- when instead of siding with the newly liberated peoples of the area, we stepped into the neocolonial  cement shoes that have weighed us down ever since.

The last rational act we committed was when Eisenhower halted the British-French-Israeli attempt to occupy the Suez canal.

Right out of the box, we and the Brits removed the freely elected leader of Iran, because he dared to nationalize his country's own oil resources. Imagine that! The nerve! The government we see in Iran today springs from that ham-fisted intervention.

Most egregious is our out-of-whack support for Israel -- no matter what this little Prussia does we'll veto any UN resolution and keep sending the weapons and ammo that kills thousands and thousands of people in the area. Every single major advisor and American "expert" for decades on the Israeli-Palestinian issue has been a dedicated Zionist. What rational state would believe that it's perceived as an "honest broker" thereby?

Do we think the Egyptians don't remember who provided the weapons that killed their sons in the Egyptian-Israeli wars? That  the Lebanese are grateful for the 206 Israel attack and one million cluster bombs they left behind for their children to pick up?

For decades we supported and praised Ben Ali of Tunisia and Mubarak of Egypt. Surprise! They are overthrown, and our trusty "intelligence" services were caught with their pants down. Perhaps they were too busy spying on us? 

Th artificial states imposed by the neocolonial powers (that includes us) --  Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Israel -- either are dancing or will all dance the deadly dance. Syria, top news right now -- is dividing into Alawite, Hizbollah and al Qaeda regions. Lebanon may very well be dragged into the conflict. The Kurds of Iraq have just warned the Sunni insurgents in Syria to stop attacking Kurds there. The possibilities are very rich. Russia and the US are backing different sides.

Every combatant in the Syrian conflict wants to obliterate Israel.

Jordan, whose population is majority displaced Palestinians, may be the next to start dancing. The US dispatched F-16s and troops to Jordan. Are they there to keep Syria from spilling over, or will they assist the Little King of he's threatened at home?

The Saudis have ignited a sectarian conflict in the region, and -- like the US' foolish backing of Afghan jihadis to fight the USSR -- may very well reap their own whirlwind.

With all of this as backdrop, John Kerry is conduction "peace talks" with Israel -- which has no intention of seeing anything like a viable Palestinian state on its border -- and the Palestinian "Authority" which has a similar reach as the mayor of Kabul, and no authority to negotiate anything for the millions of Palestinians who want to exercise their UN-granted right of return.

Obama's flailing is unavoidable -- the greatest genius ever born couldn't make these cards into a winning hand.

Edwin_S
Edwin_S

@Wiggymaster  Europe has a shameful record of giving in to the totalitarian demands of Islam. That should not be surprising because it did the same with Nazism and Stalinist Communism. The somewhat surprising thing is that the United States seems to be doing the same thing under the Obama administration. 

ReneDemonteverde
ReneDemonteverde

@RobertNguyen Stop and then what. What will happen is the Gulf States will probably send money and materiel to Egypt as they could not afford a Muslim Brotherhood victory right in their midst. They already promised eight billion dollars. And suppose they turn to China or Russia as ally and sponsor ? Would that not look awkward looking ? America on the side of the Islamists against its former allies ? Egypt is already sending feelers to Russia. This is what happen when you have a indecisive and cowardly man for President. Nobody respects him anymore.

Edwin_S
Edwin_S

@KGelner I agree with you. Though it is a complex situation and i do not think I would like either side to be my government, I believe that the majority of Egyptians now recognize that the MB is a group of totalitarian thugs. The election victory of the MB was no more fair than that of Mubarak, who was an elected president removed in a coup that the United States actively supported. Mubarak was far more of a progressive force in that country than the Muslim Brotherhood. 

NoNonsense
NoNonsense

@KGelner Or the MB hired people to fire into the crowd at prior protests.....and admitted they did so

Edwin_S
Edwin_S

@Rami Unfortunately the American media is blind to the fact that the Army is one of the most progressive forces within Egypt. The election that put the Muslim Brotherhood in power was no more free and fair than the election that chose Mubarak. And elections are just one component of a just and responsible government. A government need extremely strong  (virtually absolute and unalterable) guarantees of equal rights for all groups within the country to be considered a good government. No government is perfect in that respect (including the United States) but, unfortunately, a high percentage of governments run by Muslims are absolutely terrible in that respect. China is wonderful in comparison. I really do not know if Egypt can rid itself of totalitarianism. Unlike you I (fortunately) am an American not an Egyptian so I do not have to live with whatever is created in this process. But I think that the Egyptian people deserve a better government than the one they had under Morsi. There are some majority Muslim states which are reasonably free and progressive. Turkey is one, though I think it is now sliding into Islamist tyranny. Surprisingly, the former Communist state of Albania is majority Muslim and it has a pretty decent government from what I've read---certainly in comparison to most Middle Eastern states. I think it is actually possible for the "good guys" to succeed in Egypt but not if Europe and the United States quashes them. 

NoNonsense
NoNonsense

@Rami Almost everyone from that area tells the same story except for the US media and the US govt and the Muslim Brotherhood. 

ReneDemonteverde
ReneDemonteverde

@Karl You have a better chance with Putin protecting Christians than our Muslim President. He is casting his lot with Mursi.

traderjim7
traderjim7

@Amit-Atlanta-USA  Yes, you are talking about THE RELIGION OF PEACE.  It is not a religion, and as long as there are muslims, there will be no peace.

hshafik.elsayed
hshafik.elsayed

Dear sir
I want to declare our point of view that we are not terrorists and our government started this matter according to the approval that we Egyptians announced clearly on 30/6 and on 26/7.
بالعربية
مايحدث بمصر الان امر داخلي ونحن شعب ‫#‏مصر‬ قد فوضنا جيش مصر وجهاز الشرطة بالقضاء على الجماعه الارهابية ولن نسمح لاي دوله مهما كانت بالتدخل في هذا الامر فمصر دوله صاحبة سيادة
بالانجليزية
What is happening in ‪#‎Egypt‬ is now an internal matter and we are the people of Egypt commissioned Egyptian army and police to deal with the elimination of the terrorist group will not allow any State whatever to intervene in this matter. Egypt is a ‪#‎sovereign‬ state.

i want to add that we Egyptian people , i would say the majority of us highly respect the police forces and the military force for being the ones who  always take all the chances to defend our country. 

we really need to defend ourselves against people ho suspect their good intenion
بالفرنسية
Qu'est-ce qui se passe en ‪#‎Egypte‬ est maintenant une affaire interne et nous sommes le peuple de l'Egypte juges a commandé l'armée Egypte et de la police de l'élimination du groupe terroriste ne permettra pas un État que ce soit à intervenir dans cette affaire l'Egypte est son Etat souverain
بالالمانية
Was in ‪#‎Ägypten‬ geschieht, ist nun eine interne Angelegenheit, und wir sind die Menschen in Attorney Richter beauftragt Ägypten Armee und Polizei die Beseitigung der terroristischen Vereinigung wird nicht zulassen, jeden Staat, was in dieser Angelegenheit zu intervenieren Ägypten Ihr souveräner Staat ist
بالاسبانية
Lo que está sucediendo en ‪#‎Egipto‬ es ahora un asunto interno y nosotros el pueblo de Jueces Egipto Egipto encargó ejército y la policía de la eliminación de la banda terrorista no permitirá que ningún Estado lo que para intervenir en este asunto Egipto es su Estado soberano
بالتركية
Ne Mısır'da oluyor şimdi bir iç meselesidir ve biz ‪#‎Mısır‬ Hakimler insanlar Mısır Onun egemen bir devlet ne olursa olsun bu konuda müdahale Mısır ordusu ve polis terör örgütü ortadan kaldırılması herhangi bir devlet izin vermez devreye
بالايطالية
Quello che sta accadendo in ‪#‎Egitto‬ è ormai una questione interna e noi siamo il popolo d'Egitto Giudici commissionato Egitto esercito e la polizia l'eliminazione del gruppo terroristico non permetteranno uno Stato qualunque sia di intervenire in questa materia l'Egitto è il suo stato sovrano

KGelner
KGelner

@Anon24 Women in power through history have been just as prone to using violence.  You don't even have to leave Egypt, just look at Cleopatra...

traderjim7
traderjim7

@Anon24  Yes, we need Hillary to step in and make peace.  She did a wonderful job at Benghazi, didn't she?

RamonRoman
RamonRoman

@doriangrey_grey Mr Doriangrey aka Oscar Wilde, with all due respect, " You are full of Sh..".

So, for you, the reality, what you are seeing through the media with pictures and videos, is a Liberal Marxist plot. May you be blessed!  So according to you, the Islamist being massacred are just a move by these fifth columnists to advance their Liberal Marxist Agenda. First of all, mr doriangrey, the soup that you try to cook couldn't be done: Liberal and Marxists?

Before you use other people's opinions, whether in videos, or in written accounts, Why don't you form your own opinion, reading and learning from history?  What you are doing is using your ignorant preformed hatred to spew your ignorance.

philip.smeeton
philip.smeeton

@RamonRoman Oliver Stone has done that (a TV series about the evil America has done) and the result was that his son hates America and converted to Islam. Islam is the most dispicable evil force that the world has ever experienced.

traderjim7
traderjim7

@brad9383656 Please tell us, exactly what did Russia do wrong, and what should be their consequences?  Russia should have taken over Afghanistan when they invaded there 33 years ago, and the US should have stayed out.  And that fool Jimmy Carter should never have boycotted the Moscow Olympics as retaliation for Russia having invaded Afghanistan.

Edwin_S
Edwin_S

@RamonRoman  In and of itself, democracy is no guarantee of a good and just government. It is possible for the majority of people in a country to be such religious zealots that once they attain power they brutally suppress all other religions. The fact that they may do this via majority rule does not make it right. At the very least the United States should oppose such governments and not befriend them (aside from attempts to change their minds by offering limited friendship, educational and cultural exchanges and the like). Of course, attempts to overthrow such governments and re-install a new democracy are generally going to be futile. If the majority of people actually want totalitarianism they will vote for it the next time.  In Egypt, I really don't know. Perhaps the majority of the country really wants a rigid Islamist regime that will brutally suppress not only other religions (which in this case would be Coptic Christian--Egypt having killed or driven away all the Jews long ago, otherwise they would be oppressing the Jews instead) but also all dissenting Islamic voices.  If so, the military could throw out the Muslim Brotherhood 10, 50, or 100 times and they would simply get back into power as soon as there was a new election. But I think there is still a chance that this is not the case. The fall of Mubarak was so rapid that other groups did not have a chance to properly organize for new elections. The Muslim Brotherhood was the only one positioned to win an election. Hopefully the Egyptians will soon get a chance to choose again. If they make a similar choice then it will be decades before Egypt gets out of the grip of religious extremism. 

KGelner
KGelner

@RamonRoman "the MAJORITY of Egytians elected a government, with Islamic people in it, to govern them for the years that their constitution commands." 

Immediately after which the Islamic leader they elected proceeded to take over the courts, military, police, and proclaimed that he was above and beyond that same constitution.

So what we saw in the recent protests for Morsi to be removed, was that the MAJORITY of Egyptians wanted Morsi gone before he could dismantle the whole democracy that elected him - and the military agreed to help the same MAJORITY.  That is what is happening today, the strikes against the murderious Muslim Brotherhood are by the will of the MAJORITY of the egyptian people.  And you have only to blame yourself for this, if you had just shared power peacefully none of this disaster would have befallen you and your people.  But you can't share, can you?  You can't bear the thought of a single human not living under Sharia law...


YehudaElyada
YehudaElyada

@arvay

Like the Pavlov dog you identify with, your reactions are so predictable. Raise any concern about something happening in the Middle East and you have automatic response to blame it on Israel. I won't try to answer your laughable explanation, just as Dr. Pavlov didn't waste hu time teaching physiology to the dogs. Just stay assured that this type of dialectics is bound to prolong the period before the Arab countries muster the courage to confront their real problems and start the journey towards real democracy.

KGelner
KGelner

@arvay What idiocy it is to drag Israel into every single problem in the middle east, even something that is clearly wholly about the people of Egypt.

You are obviously obsessed with, and deeply hate, jews.

philip.smeeton
philip.smeeton

@arvay You are right but it still doesn't excuse the way that Muslims behave.

Edwin_S
Edwin_S

@hshafik.elsayed I hope and pray that you are right and that the Egyptians who want a just and fair government which respects the rights of all the groups within the country will prevail. I don't think that either Europe or the United States should intervene, if we did intervene we surely should be against the Muslim Brotherhood and in favor of those who deposed Morsi. 

swimmer19
swimmer19

@hshafik.elsayed 

You are absolutely right and I am glad to read your comments. 

People should also know that General Al-Sisi has said the military will rebuild all the Christian churches that have been burned/destroyed by the Muslim Brotherhood. The military has done it in the past and they will do it again this time, at the government's expense. I believe there is a lot going on behind the scenes that the world does not know about. so no one should be judging.

 As it says in the above article "the crackdown had been a response to “terrorist acts” and a “criminal plan to demolish the pillars of the Egyptian state." We do not know a lot of these details yet but  you are right, this is an internal matter for Egypt.  I believe Gen. Al-Sisi and the military know exactly who they are dealing with and what response they need to make.


RamonRoman
RamonRoman

@philip.smeeton @RamonRoman Mr Philip, first of all, all religions are despicable, all of them, because they use the weak and ignorant people to impose something that is mythical in the real world, with the consequences that you still see in this 21 century. If you still doesn't figure out what I am trying to defend, here is again, " I AM DEFENDING THE CONCEPT AND THE REALITY OF DEMOCRACY, THE SAME CONCEPT AND REALITY THAT THE USA IS TRYING TO IMPOSE BY FORCE IN THE MIDDLE EAST, BUT WHEN THE RESULT DOESN'T PLEASE IT, THEY GO BEYOND THE REALITY AND SUPPORT THE BREAKING OF THE LAWS OF FOREIGN COUNTRIES, THAT'S ALL".

RamonRoman
RamonRoman

@KGelner @RamonRoman First of all, you have a good imagination that is not proven by the reality of the facts. Since when the losers in a  democratic process demand a sharing of Power? According to all the mechanics of democracy, when you lose, you wait for your turn. Simple as this. If you don't do it and you support this, you are as guilty as the ones taking down a democratic process and assassinating  all those who oppose them. Finally, show an iota of proof that the Morsi government was killing the poor secular Egyptians.

arvay
arvay

@KGelner @arvay 

Yes, of course, I'm just making it up. The Egyptians love us because we helped Israel kill their soldiers. All is forgiven, that's why they  listen to our advice so intently. No one in the region notices israel, it just goes about its business. Pay no attention to hose cluster bombs dropped among Lebanese villages. Only Jew-haters would be upset by those.

You people have achieved a state of reflexive  self-parody rarely matched anywhere. If a meteor crashed into Tel Aviv, it would be  interpreted by your ilk as an anti-Semitic meteor, a meteor that hates Jews, a Holocaust meteor. 

LOL. 

Thanks or the laugh.

The joke is on you. 


Edwin_S
Edwin_S

@RamonRoman @KGelner Mubarak won his last election with over 90% of the vote. The percentage reflected by the vote does not necessarily reflect the actual percentage of support. 

RamonRoman
RamonRoman

@KGelner Mr gelmer, your post contains something that doesn't show your prowess in mathematics. Morsi won with a 51% of the votes, but according to you there is another majority opposing him. How much is it, mr gelner, in mathematical terms, 52%, 53% or even more? So there are more than 100% of Egyptians living in Egypt? I am really confused.

arvay
arvay

@Edwin_S @arvay @KGelner 

israel is an artificial western enclave inserted into a hostile region. It will never be accepted and will eventually be destroyed, either in a general war or after years of attrition, attacks and increasing damage.

The scientific advances will be irrelevant the first time missile lands on, say, the Intel facility.

It is our most serious Middle east foreign policy mistake, and its collapse will bring and end to more  than sixty years of misguided actions in the region

Edwin_S
Edwin_S

@arvay @KGelner Israel has the right of self defense. Even Obama has recognized that. When the Muslims attack it, Israel does what it must.  Israel is our only real ally in the Middle East. Europe has cravenly bowed down to the Islamists, perhaps out of fear of losing their oil. The day is coming when Middle East oil will no longer be a large factor in the world's economy. On that day the Islamic nations will be in pretty bad shape because they have little productivity aside from using our Western technology to bring the oil out of the ground. They also have prospered by nationalizing (AKA stealing) the oil fields which we in the west discovered and purchased.  Israel will continue to thrive despite its hostile neighbors because it is a productive nation which contributes to the overall betterment of the world via economic productivity and scientific advances.