Bathroom Battle: States Grapple With Transgender Rights

As the Supreme Court mulls gay marriage, states tackle a different question: which bathrooms should transgender citizens use?

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Toby Talbot/ AP

A sign marks the entrance to a gender neutral restroom at the University of Vermont in Burlington, Vt., Thursday, Aug. 23, 2007.

What do you call it when a person enters a bathroom but the sign outside doesn’t match the sex listed on his or her birth certificate? Disorderly conduct, according to a bill offered earlier this month by Arizona state Rep. John Kavanagh. But the measure sparked outrage in the LGBT community, which saw discrimination against transgender citizens. Kavanagh responded with a revamped, more limited version, which protects businesses that bar such practices from civil or criminal liability. After a contentious seven-hour hearing on Wednesday dominated by opposition to the proposal, a House panel voted along party lines to approve it.

As the Supreme Court considers same-sex marriage, and with gay couples enjoying more rights and protections than ever, pitched debates in state capitals are a reminder that transgender rights remain unclear and controversial. Of the roughly 9 million people in the U.S. who identify as lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender, according to a 2011 study, roughly 700,000 say they are transgender.

One reason that transgender rights remain murky is because the American public is still coming to understand who they are: a survey released in 2011 showed that 3 in 10 Americans cannot identify what it means to be transgender and dictionary definitions aren’t cut-and-dry. (The Oxford English Dictionary’s rather tortured entry: “a person whose identity does not conform unambiguously to conventional notions of male or female gender, but combines or moves between these.”) Confusion or discomfort about where gender lines are drawn make bathrooms a perennial hot-button, because those are the only places most people are self-segregating based on their gender in an average day.

The fight for transgendered rights has lagged behind that of gays and lesbians. But the measures on state dockets aren’t all a blow to the movement: while activists consider Arizona’s “bathroom bill” a setback, other states are considering expanded protections for the transgendered, who are hopeful their cause may be headed for the kind of mainstream acceptance enjoyed by the gay rights movement.

A Democrat-backed California proposal would allow students to take part in sex-segregated school programs based on their gender identity, irrespective of the sex on their records. So, a student born male but who identifies as female could play on the girls’ tennis team and use the girls’ locker room. Opponents say “gender identity” is too broad to serve as an absolute guide and warn that such a bill could leave school facilities and programs at risk for abuse. In the District of Columbia, council members are considering a proposal that would make it easier for citizens to change the sex listed on their birth certificate, requiring only an affidavit signed by a doctor rather than a court order.

The second version of the contentious Arizona bill is nearly identical to one defeated in the Maine legislature two years ago. Rep. Kenneth Fredette, the sponsor of that bill, says that the legal boundaries of what it means to be transgender are still “emerging” and that communities need to have conversations about how to deal with sex-segregated facilities and programs without “throwing darts at people for being bigots because they ask questions.” He says the purpose of his bill was to protect businesses from being sued. “It wasn’t any attempt to discriminate against anybody,” the Republican Minority Leader says.

Transgender rights attorney Lisa Mottet disagrees. She says that such bills are “mean-spirited,” back-handed ways to marginalize transgender individuals. Arizona residents are “being told that the cities they live in cannot protect them from discrimination in bathrooms, and that’s a terrible message to send to the community,” she says. Mottet, who works for the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, argues that while statutes regulating bathroom access are rare, non-discrimination laws inherently protect the right of a transgender patron or student to use the bathroom of their choice. Sixteen states and the District of Columbia have passed such non-discrimination laws, as have hundreds of colleges and towns.

Mara Keisling, executive director of the National Center for Transgender Equality, says that labeling all single-stall bathrooms as unisex is one easy fix, though that sidesteps broader questions about the status of transgender people, when it comes to bigger bathrooms—or prisons or homeless shelters or high school sports teams. “Transgenders simply want to be themselves and not hide their entire lives,” Mottet says. “The least we can do as a society is say we respect that.”

95 comments
hypotheticalforu
hypotheticalforu

Hypothetical question:  A woman is a rape victim (of a male assailant) and wants to go into a bathroom without a penis in there.  Does she have the right to do that? 

BenevolentLawyer
BenevolentLawyer

Dropped in to provide a quick update: Sorry it might be full of typos because I have a lot to write fast, and I am typing pretty quickly. I might look it over later if Ican stomach any further attacks, and correct it.

Here is the update--Yesterday, I saw the individual that caused me a lot of angst, last week, by displaying his male genitalia in the locker room-- by walking up and down and making a spectacle of himself. Yes, he was back to the women's only locker room. Since he had already told me he was trying to make a point-the last time, when he started marching up and down again, male genitals swinging, I decided to find out what point he was making this time. He and I spoke again. He told me the following:

1. He is not transgendered. He is inter or intra sexed. I am not sure which term he used.

2. He said he decided to put in breast implants, as he explained, since though he was born male because he felt  strong pull to his feminine side as well. He says he also feels male, but wants to be both male and female.

3. He says we can refer to him as he or she because he is both. He might choose one later but now he feels more male because he is male most of the time for work, family etc.

4. He is not on hormonal therapy and will not consider it because he works as a man and is happy with it. He said he likes the flexibility he has obtained from taking male and female sexual identities. He also said he likes being strong and lean, benefits not provided by estrogen. This remark about estrogen being weak apparently, to him, was knee slapping funny. Not to me.   

5. His point this time was that he could walk around naked in the locker room with "noone daring to bother him."-his words not mine, since as he said had more testosterone than all of us women in the locker room put together.

6. He said that in other gyms, when he walked around naked in men's rooms, he had been threatened by some of the men.

7. He said he finds both sexes equally sexually attractive. For now, he likes women more but it usually changes, according to him.

8. I asked him if he was using our locker room with his male or female persona. He said, he was using it as a man and a woman.

Finally, he told me there was nothing we (the women in the locker room) could physically do to him except complain like mice< his words. He confirmed that he could not walk around naked in the male locker room but could do so in the womens locker room. I guess it is because as he said, we could do nothing to stop him. And he was right, even though he is a somewhat older guy in his fifties, he is still, as he said, stronger than us women. He said he could be whatever he chose, whenever he chose and it was too bad if the women in the locker room felt upset. The men concern him but not the women. Meanwhile he is  a man too. He is a bully, and invading our privacy rights, in the womens locker room, with his arrogant and unconscionable conduct.   

That's all.

7

PS: On another note. This is a magazine blog. We should be able to share and discuss different opinions without being insulted or accused of using multi aliases. Since I started this discussion, I had "Jmac" on another page call me crazy, ask me to take Midol (Midol is medicine generally used by women during their periods), told by two other people that I am another female lawyer (who by the way frpm what I have found,deserves compassion not mockery) that uses this site, since they stated I write like her-even though I have  only one pseudonym and have said so (BTW, "JordanGwendolynDavis" below, has a similar writing style as I do (I think)--and I am not her either). My identity was stolen for a while during the election cycle, I reported it, and since that time, as far as I know, no other person uses this moniker other than me.

Well, all these attacks just because I have a passionate different view, these deriding anyones charrater is very hurtful and makes me quite sad. I shared my passionate opinion as many folks do, and should not be attacked and my character questioned in the manner it has been by a few folks. I will always have my own views on issues. This site used to be much more accommodating of different perspectives on an issue, and I do not have to be "Jmac" who positions are based as I noticed, I think, on following the dominant view, without  providing any original opinions.         

Arguing different view points should always be welcome. But, Even now, I wonder if reading articles here and posting my views it is worth subjecting myself to the  character attacks from some on Swampland. I think it is worse because those who have attacked me are people I have always shown respect, and even liked. 

Hope everyone had a nice Easter. Have a nice week everyone.



Irony
Irony

How about we, as a culture, collectively get over our phobia of basic biology and come to the realization that it does not matter which facility they use. A transgender person who uses the female restroom is not going to "infect" it with maleness or vice-versa.

Seriously, it seems like so many grown adults need to go back to kindergarten and read "everybody poops".

N_Marie
N_Marie

This is probably going to be shot down as a dumb question. But, if a law passes to allow transgender or transsexual individuals to  use the bathroom facility of their choice - What is to prevent a sex offender from taking advantage of this? 

As it stands now, a person who is OBVIOUSLY a man dressed as a woman will be stopped from using a women's bathroom.  I said obvious because some men do look like females. If a law passes to allow transgender individuals access to an otherwise prohibited area, what protective measures are in place to stop a sexual assault? 

If a sexual predator were able to gain better access to potential victims simply by claiming to be transgender or transsexual, what preventative protective measures will be taken? In places where there is limited security, like a rest stop or even an Sports facility where there is sometimes 2 entrances into the same bathroom - what protection is there? 

I hear a lot about protection for transgender individuals, what about protecting  the rights of individuals who just want to use the facility dictated by their birth sex and not their mental sex identity? 


Andrashocker
Andrashocker

@TIME @TIMEPolitics If you have a willy you can use the stand up urinal in the boys bathroom, otherwise, sit down on the girls loo.

StrayedoggAgain
StrayedoggAgain

@TIME I wouldn't be surprised if Transgenders sue the clothing industry for the rights to bras, panties, and female garments!

socialnn
socialnn

@TIME @TIMEPolitics If Americans still can't grasp gay marriage, they're really going to have a hard time with the transgender issue.

JordanGwendolynDavis
JordanGwendolynDavis

This is not about men being able to use a women's room or to enter a women's facility, rather, it's about ALL WOMEN being able to enter a women's facility, no matter if they have the birth defect that can only be corrected through gender reassignment surgery or what their genitals look like.

Furthermore, I would like to expose "bugbrennan". Her name is Catherine Margaret "Cathy" Brennan, an attourney for Hudson Cook in Hanover, MD. In addition to her MD license, she is also licensed to practice in the states of Pennsylvania and New York, and what makes this interesting, was the fact that she could probably clean sweep the mid-Atlantic states, though New Jersey would probably disbar her for the transphobic comments she makes.


She also maintains a blog called pretendbians.com in which she attacks numerous transsexual women, including myself, whom she videotaped without my consent (there's a reason why people who wish to appear in films have to sign a release). She has also travelled out of her way to events to castigate transwomen, and was pictured holding a sign that says "Only Men Rape". Though most rapists are men, is anyone reminded of Mary Kay LeTourneau. Point is, she is stating a legal fallacy here, and for a LICENSED ATTORNEY to say something like that possibly breaches numerous ethics rules.


Furthermore, her advocacy of transgender women using or being placed into men's spaces is a perpetuation of rape culture. While cisgender women have nothing to fear simply by allowing transwomen to be placed or enter women's space, forcing transwomen into men's spaces seeks to expose a vulnerable subset of women to rape. She is a rape apologist, pure and simple, and should never be able to call herself a feminist. In fact, her most recent blog post on "Pretendbians" is called "The Undeniable BUTTHURT of Joy Ladin", implying that she would be delighted if Joy Ladin, a transwoman, got anally raped.

michiko
michiko

The problem with this bill is that it goes beyond those who you would consider as transgender or transsexual and goes to the "cis" gender persons (those who identify with the gender that was assigned at birth).  This means a tall or masculine looking woman is subject to scruitny.  It seems to me the problem with this legislation is the risk of exposure of genitals.  If this is truly the case, as a compromise, I would recommend that Kavanaugh amend this bill to eliminate public restrooms from the legislation and keep it active for showers and locker rooms. (Of course, this idea is still not popular among those in a segment of the "transgender" community who choose not to be under a doctor's care [including those who take self-prescribed hormones] or who cross-dress for sexual fetish)  

Restrooms have individual stalls with doors and the risk of exposure is virtually non-existent. 

I would rather see this bill just die because overall it does promote discrimination.  It would also be another bill that could go to a court case and Arizona is still reeling the expenses of defending SB-1070.  

But those who are transsexual or intersex and have their hormone levels of that of their identified gender are not a threat to anyone.  The best way to identify those who fall under this category is through the gender marker on their US Passport or (in some states, including Arizona) their state driver license or non-driver ID.  Those with their ID matching the gender of the restroom that they are using have a MEDICAL need to be in that space. 

DarrylETMiller
DarrylETMiller

Oops it posted too soon. Meant to say: as for Transgender teens using certain bathrooms and lockerrooms in high school, I'm not sure what the beat answer is. Probably a case by case basis. I understand kids being especially sensitive. However, whatever the solution is we must ensure the Transgender teen is treated fairly and with dignity. They've likely gone through tremendous emotional turmoil that surpasses anything their peers have experienced. It's a cliche, but what this world needs desperately is more love & understanding.

DarrylETMiller
DarrylETMiller

Transgender human beings have faced enough persecution through the ages, made to feel uncomfortable (an understatement) probably more than any other group, including gays. And I grew up gay in small town Oklahoma, so I def know homophobia firsthand. My feeling is by the time we become adults we have had a chance to educate ourselves. In the adult workplace, I totally support a Transgender's right to use the bathroom that matches their gender identity, regardless if they've had the operation. Either way, someone might be uncomfortable. My empathy lies with the person who has been discriminated against their entire life. As for Transgender

jmac
jmac

It's Phyllis Schlafly's worst nightmare.  Remember when she fought against the Equal Rights Amendment by saying it would lead to same sex bathrooms?   Now she won't even know which sex might be in her bathroom (not that she knew before). 

p1970
p1970

Whatever conclusions are reached about bathroom use, the issues should sorted with compassion and recognition of the human dignity of transgender people. A survey released a couple of years ago showed that 78% of transgender people were harassed in school for being transgender, 90% were harassed at work (and 47% were either fired, not hired, or denied a promotion because they were transgender), and 53% were harassed in public accomodations (restaurants, hotels, or airports, for example). These statistics show an appalling level of prejudice toward transgender people. The full survey results can be read here: http://transequality.org/PDFs/Executive_Summary.pdf

PamelaBrown
PamelaBrown

@BenevolentLawyer As I thought, this person did not even identify as transsexual. I don't think this person belongs in female facilities either but a m-f transsexual under medical care with the proper identification such as a female designation on their driver's license is a different story. I can't afford sexual reassignment surgery and there is no way on earth I would ever use a women's locker room unless I had enough privacy. There are stalls in the bathrooms so privacy is not an issue but I would be humiliated if women were to see my genitalia. I don't think you have a real grasp of what transsexuals are like. No surprise , sense we are maligned and misrepresented and are openly mocked in the media persistently.

deconstructiva
deconstructiva

@BenevolentLawyer A serious question: did you go to the gym management or the police to complain? If they both said the man had a right to be there, then there is a privacy conflict, but alas, no legal standing to deny his presence. Certainly issues that like need clearing up.

IndigoSage
IndigoSage

@BenevolentLawyer Your view is akin to, "I think blacks and whites should be segregated" You know why people don't like you and you thrive off of it. You know that your views hurt people because of their bigotry and you know you are reviled because of your stalking. You are not benevolent, Brennan. You attack people and misgender them all the time.  You should know by now that calling trans women men is not acceptable for someone who claims to be for equality. You know you are harming these people and contributing to pain in their lives.

If you are a good person, you will drop the hatred and stop. You will stop attacking and stalking people, you will stop trying to ruin lives. You know what? I want the hatred to end. If you care about women so much, why not try to help women instead of attack the ciswomen who think differently from you. Why do you spend to much time persecuting trans people when women are in need of help from colleges that shun them for reporting their rapists? 

It seems that you are just one of a number of activists that use the influence you have to spread your hatred and not really to help women. I call on you to stop the madness. Join the side of the angels, in a manner of speaking. Drop the trans hate, Brennan. Someone with your skills and ability to make the world a better place if you'd let hatred go and concentrate on bringing equality and love into this world.

jamesf161
jamesf161

@N_Marie sexual assault is already covered under the statutes, and people have other ways to perform sexual assault.

snukb
snukb

@N_Marie Well, first of all, trans people already do have this right. This law is attempting to take it away. If you can cite me even one instance of a man pretending to be a trans woman to access a woman's space, then please do. There is no evidence that this has ever happened. This fear is simply not valid.

On the other hand, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of stories each year of trans folks who were assaulted in restrooms, and who were denied access to restrooms (despite it being a protected right). I understand your concern, but it's simply a false fear. Whereas on the other hand, if a trans woman is forced to use the men's room, she faces the very real threat of verbal harassment and abuse, or even physical or sexual assault. You cannot deny these people safe places to pee simply because of unfounded fears.

bobell
bobell

@N_Marie Sorry, but if a man wants to rape a woman in a restroom, he can already do so.  He just needs to pick his spots carefully. I don't think loosening up on who goes where is going to make much of a difference. I'll be happy to see the guy fry in hell, but short of armed guards in restrooms there are limits to what one can prevent.

Life is very easy when everyone has to act according to their birth gender and can't even develop a same-sex romance.  That's how it was in this country fifty or so years ago.  I suppose there are those who think life was better then, and I'm not going to argue the point. But life is now a lot more complex, with racial and ethnic and now gender diversity. You need to learn to live with it -- or move to some isolated spot where people continue to ignore it.

So take your choice. But don't expect the world to turn back half a century because it makes you uneasy.

MaryDalyzinHell
MaryDalyzinHell

@StrayedoggAgain @TIME Secret fantasy to share, doll? I KNOW where you've been on teh internetz....:)

jamesf161
jamesf161

@StrayedoggAgain @TIME anyone can buy pretty much any clothing, regardless of gender. You are very strange, Mr Bigot

PamelaBrown
PamelaBrown

@michiko I think if you are a pre-op , you should go home  to change . I'm a pre-op and i would be humiliated if a woman saw my genitalia. I would not want to use a women's locker room or showers. I do not want to make other women feel afraid or uncomfortable nor do I want to be embarrassed. This is really a non issue, bathrooms have private stalls . Locker rooms are a different story but I think there has to be a way to deal with this without overtly discriminating against trans folk.

CristanWilliams
CristanWilliams

Do you even understand that you are using the same argument that Phyllis Schlafly used against the Equal Rights Amendment? 

"Listening to the opponents of the Equal Rights Amendment, you would think it was designed to... integrate public toilets, legalize rape, outlaw heterosexual marriage... Law professor Paul Freund objected in 1973 to being 'quoted erroneously and out of context by certain opponents of the Equal Rights Amendment' and commented flatly, 'I have not staled, and I do not believe, that the Amendment would require the sharing of restroom and prison cells by both sexes.' Yet in 1975 a huge anti-ERA advertisement in Baton Rouge papers credited him with the allegation that the ERA would integrate bathrooms. " - Ruston Daily Leader, Thursday, June 16, 1977

Tell me, Bug... I've been asking you this question for a year now and you never answer it: 
In what way does trans equality nullify laws prohibiting rape, assault, stalking and/or public indecency/disturbance? Answer the question, Bug. 

ColinCrowe
ColinCrowe

@bugbrennan Things are not so black and white. I agree that the definitions used within these laws are too broad. There is a clear distinction that could be drawn, though. Cross dressers are a class separate from transsexuals. The diagnoses are distinct, and cross dressers do not medically and socially transition. Why not exclude crossdressers from women's bathrooms and let transsexual women use them. And if this is really about creating penis and vagina bathrooms for you, do you advocate the exclusion of transsexual men from men's rooms?

p1970
p1970

@bugbrennan I didn't know that feminism was about attacking the anti-discrimination laws that protect transgender people. I thought feminism was about believing in the equality of the sexes, nothing more, nothing less. 

"The definition of feminism ... does not care what you look like. It does not care what color skin you have, or whether that skin is clear, or how much you weigh, or what you do with your hair. You can bite your nails, or you can get them done once a week. You can spend two hours on your makeup, or five minutes, or the time it takes to find a Chapstick without any lint sticking to it. You can rock a cord mini, or khakis, or a sari, and you can layer all three. The definition of feminism does not include a mandatory leg-hair check; wax on, wax off, whatever you want. If you believe in, support, look fondly on, hope for, and/or work towards equality of the sexes, you are a feminist.

Yes, you are."

BenevolentLawyer
BenevolentLawyer

@deconstructiva @BenevolentLawyer Thanks for asking. We told the gym management, and since he told them he us male, and reaffirmed it, they said he had to use the male locker room. But some folks also reported him to the police, and now he says his rights to present as whatever sex he pleases are being infringed. Well, the local NOW folks have become involved, so we will see how it all works out.

Have a good one D. 

BenevolentLawyer
BenevolentLawyer

@IndigoSage @BenevolentLawyer What are you talking about IndigoSage? You have mixed up my remarks with "Brennan" or that of someone else. If you follow the thread of my comments, you will understand the final update I  have posted above. I do not know anything  talking about. My issue is privacy for women in our locker rooms, not rape or feminism.  

JG91
JG91

@PamelaBrown @michiko I think your correct. I suggested meeting in the middle. Trans having their own bathrooms would be a start. Then everyone has a choice.

MaryDalyzinHell
MaryDalyzinHell

@ColinCrowe Witness the Brennan. She cites her own hate screed. The Ego Amazes! And look! She agrees with the screed she has written! AS IF if could be any other way. #academicFAIL #hubrisBecomesHer #HeardItAllBefore

bugbrennan
bugbrennan

@ColinCrowe I am not the person advocating for these laws. I don't think we need them. However, if trans advocates propose them, as a feminist attorney, I will propose definitions to lessen the negative impact on women.

Transmen in the men's room is not an issue that concerns me.

We already have "penis and vagina" restrooms. They are called "the men's room and the women's room. If trans advocates cared about women, they wouldn't be pushing people with penises in the women's room.

bugbrennan
bugbrennan

@p1970 @bugbrennan Feminism is about advocating for Females. The gender identity laws pushed by NGLTF and other groups are toxic sludge for us. Sorry if that hurts your feelings. 

PamelaBrown
PamelaBrown

@MaryDalyzinHell @ColinCrowe She's not exactly a an unbiased impartial observer. She does not represent the views of all women , in fact her views are very hateful and extreme. I doubt that many women at all agree with her views. Brennan is a professional anti-trans rights activist who constantly disseminates lies about trans folk and belittles their plight.

armozel
armozel

@bugbrennan@ColinCrowe And yet some how in the mix your logic fails you. 

 Can you tell me at any time you were able to distinguish a transman from a male? And don't say all the time. You don't have a statistical study to back you up, just anecdotes. 

Is it the onus of owners of said restrooms to give you a separate (but oddly equal) space from other parties? The last time I checked, the answer to that is a negative (at least in the US). Because if your logic held here then I as a caucasian human should demand caucasian only facilities because I feel some how those non-caucasians are creepy. See how it doesn't work? For someone that's a lawyer by trade, you seem to fail at logic.

Furthermore, until you prove that transmen and transwomen are a 'danger' you can't invoke such things (it's called appeals to future knowledge, look it up).

ColinCrowe
ColinCrowe

@bugbrennan @ColinCrowe And you avoid the real argument by focusing on a single sentence. Guess you gotta go with your strengths in life, girl.

ColinCrowe
ColinCrowe

@bugbrennan @p1970 @ColinCrowe You know that GID was removed from the DSM, right? You spend a lot of time on the Internet ranting against trans folks as mentally ill. Always nice to have a target, isn't it? We're not mentally ill, bug. We're just a little touched. And I'd think you, of all people, should know what the current medical terminology is.  

p1970
p1970

@bugbrennan @p1970 @ColinCrowe They'd like us all to have reparative therapy. You, apparently, would like only us transgender people to have reparative therapy. You did just say we have "dysmorphism", didn't you?

What we need instead is for all of us to have compassion for one another, no matter we're straight, homosexual, or transgender, whether we're Christians, nonbelievers, or members of other religions, whether we're left wingers or right wingers.

I want to live in a world where there is compassion enough for everyone, and that would include compassion big enough to include you, too, bugbrennan.

p1970
p1970

@bugbrennan @p1970 @ColinCrowe Okay, got it. You think transgender people are mentally ill. So does Focus on the Family, James Dobson, and Bryan Fischer. Do you also advocate reparative therapy for transgender people? 

p1970
p1970

@bugbrennan @ColinCrowe If what transgender people say about themselves isn't true, what's going on with them, in your opinion?

bugbrennan
bugbrennan

@ColinCrowe Oh look, a queer person cannot make an argument and instead resorts to insults.

I don't trans men as lesbians in disguise. I view them as females.

ColinCrowe
ColinCrowe

@bugbrennan @ColinCrowe Ah. But your focus on this issue here and elsewhere belies that fact. And since you view your transsexual male brothers as mere lesbians in disguise, you fight daily against their right to eliminate the binary. Kudos! You're a hot mess.

bugbrennan
bugbrennan

@ColinCrowe I am a lesbian feminist. Advocating for women to use the men's room isn't high on my list of priorities, what with all the rape in the world.

I believe that there are some people who want to change sex and who have cosmetic surgery to create facsimile organs to resemble the opposite sex. I don't believe one can actually change sex. I don't prioritize working on cosmetic surgery for transsexuals as a lesbian feminist.

ColinCrowe
ColinCrowe

@bugbrennan @ColinCrowe What's the distinction you draw with vaginas in the penis bathroom? Do you not want your vagina brothers to be able to use the men's room? It's clear you don't believe in the notion that one could even be transsexual, given your rhetoric here and on the rest of the nets. Why not give up the ruse and fight the issue at its core? Advocate for the illegality of medical transition in any form.

bugbrennan
bugbrennan

@p1970 @BenevolentLawyer @bugbrennan They ARE bad public policy because (1) trans people should seek protection under sex and (2) gender identity as a concept is based on sex stereotypes, which is HARMFUL to women. 

You should read the letter we wrote to the United Nations.

p1970
p1970

@BenevolentLawyer @p1970 @bugbrennan I'm with you, BenevolentLawyer, on the exposure of male genitalia in women's locker rooms. It's just that bugbrennan says, above, "gender identity laws are bad public policy", by which she includes laws protecting transgender people from discrimination in employment and housing, among other things. Those laws might be the only thing standing between a transgender person and homelessness. 

BenevolentLawyer
BenevolentLawyer

@p1970 @bugbrennan No one is advocating discrimination against transgendered folks. At least, I am not. I just do not agree that a grown man should expose himself to me in the locker room in that way. In addition to the invasion of privacy issue, some of us are mothers of tweens and younger. Male genitalia on display in our locker rooms  robs us of our privacy, and prematurely exposes our children to mens genitalia etc. 

p1970
p1970

@bugbrennan @p1970 I've become very accustomed to the fact that people are opposed to transgender equality. So, you didn't hurt my feelings.  I'm used to people like that. But discrimination based on sex stereotypes is still wrong, whether it's against girls and women or against transgender people. Being transgender, I have a lot of personal experience with this, and I understand, in my heart, why it's important that no one be subject to it, so no matter how loud you shout, or no matter how sarcastic you are, you can't stop me from being against it.