Four Hurdles That Could Block Immigration Reform

This is the best chance in a generation for immigration reform, but there are reasons a deal has been so hard to come by

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Children participate in a U.S. citizenship ceremony at the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS), district office on January 29, 2013 in New York City.

The next few months offer the best chance in a generation for the two parties to solve a problem that has bedeviled Congress like few others. Both sides agree the U.S. immigration system is broken. Both would seem to gain from a deal that clears a pathway out of legal oblivion for the nation’s 11 million illegal immigrants. Support is building for a landmark pact. But while negotiations are progressing in both the House and Senate, an agreement is a long way off. As the talks grow more detailed, obstacles to a deal may begin to emerge:

Problem #1: The Gang of Eight

The first snag lurks in the Senate, where the so-called Gang of Eight has huddled privately since the election in hopes of hammering out a bill. Members have crafted a set of measures that would create a pathway to citizenship for the nation’s estimated 11 million undocumented immigrants within about 13 years while requiring them to register with federal authorities, pay back taxes and fines, learn English and undergo background checks. The deal, both sides agree, would also beef up border security and determine how the future flow of immigrants will be regulated to match the needs of the economy.

(MORE: Rand Paul Embraces Immigration Reform)

The Gang’s closed conclaves have been marked by Vatican-style secrecy, often a sign of progress in a town where silence is rare. The Gang’s members – Republicans Marco Rubio, Lindsey Graham, John McCain and Jeff Flake, and Democrats Chuck Schumer, Dick Durbin, Bob Menendez and Michael Bennet – have, by all accounts, developed a rapport. “You can tell by the tone of their voices,” says an elected Democrat briefed on the progress of the private talks.

But the broad themes are the easy part. The full bill will stretch to hundreds of pages, each peppered with detailed provisions that could spike it. Members bring clashing political imperatives and ideologies to the talks. Rubio, for example, is trying to repair the GOP’s tattered image with Hispanic voters without sparking a backlash among the movement conservatives he’d need in a presidential bid. Graham, who faces a probable primary challenge in 2014, has a habit of basking in the bipartisan spotlight before bolting when negotiations intensify.  The measure of the Gang of Eight’s success isn’t whether they are aligned at the start of their talks. It’s whether they are all aligned at the end.

Problem #2: The Lobbyists

A few years ago, an impasse between the leaders of the Chamber of Commerce and the AFL-CIO helped scupper an immigration-reform bill backed by President George W. Bush. At that time, business and labor could not agree on how many visas to grant low skilled workers who make the construction, agriculture and hotel and restaurant industries hum. The Chamber wanted cheap labor, but didn’t want workers to stay; unions were concerned about protecting citizens’ jobs. Soon after, reform collapsed.

This time the two groups have nurtured an unlikely alliance. “There has been a sea change,” says a labor source close to the discussions. Nudged by Graham and Schumer, the two lobbies released a set of shared principles, including one stating that Americans should get “first crack” at available jobs and that businesses should have the flexibility to hire to meet the demands of the market. But history could repeat itself again. The two sides call for a new federal agency charged with setting visa levels, but they have yet to agree on who’s eligible or how the new bureau will work. The issue of future flow has been a stubborn sticking point before. And it is as easy to imagine conservatives balking at efforts to create a new government agency as it is to foresee unions drawing a line at a small number of foreign workers.

(MORE: Committee to Save the GOP Says Pass Comprehensive Immigration Reform, Become Inclusive to Gays or Keep Losing)

Problem #3: House Republicans

Even if Senate negotiators can come up with a package to get 60 votes in the upper chamber, “the question continues to be, how does it get through the House?” says Frank Sharry, an expert on immigration reform. As in the Senate, a bipartisan cluster of eight representatives from across the ideological spectrum have been secretly meeting for months. Congressman Luis Gutierrez, an Illinois Democrat who has long been a leader on immigration reform, is full of praise for the new tack taken by his Republican counterparts. But, he acknowledges, “You still have to put those votes on the board, and that’s going to be a real, real test in the House of Representatives.”

For their part, Republicans say the party’s old dogma, which held that illegal immigrants should self-deport and then go to the back of the line, is not viable policy. Even many immigration hard-liners say they want to help shape comprehensive reform. “It’s time for us to belly up to the bar,” says Ted Poe, the Texas Republican who chairs the House immigration reform caucus. But for conservatives, amnesty remains a dirty word. “A bill that’s basically amnesty, that says you’re here and you’re going to be a citizen — those two things are not going to come out of this conservative House,” says Poe. Even citizenship is charged enough that Republican Senator Rand Paul, who gave a speech March 19 backing a path to legalization for undocumented immigrants, avoided using the term. Many House Republicans, including several in the Judiciary Committee through which a bill must pass, have a long history of antipathy to amnesty, and only a grassroots rebellion to fear as next year’s primaries approach.

Then there is the reality that even if Republicans were to be widely supportive of amnesty, very few of those new citizens are likely to abandon the Democratic Party anytime soon. “Republicans face a choice: do they ditch their principles and go all out in a failing attempt to outpander Democrats?” asks Rosemary Jenks, director of government relations at NumbersUSA, which advocates for lower immigration levels. “It’s becoming very clear to Republicans in Congress that this is not going to get them the Hispanic vote.”

(MORE: The Plight of the “Illegal” Nanny)

Problem #4: The Democrats

Little discussed but also looming is the possibility that Democrats drag their feet on reform. Liberals will balk if the path to citizenship is too long or too onerous, or if enforcement provisions are too rigid. Many conservatives also suspect that Democratic power brokers, despite their daily hammering of Republicans to get moving on immigration reform, would privately prefer to keep the issue as a cudgel than actually pass a law. Barack Obama “wants to make a bill come out of the Senate that is so far out there that it would never pass, so that he can blame us for not being compassionate and use the issue to take back the House in 2014,” says a House Republican. Even some liberals see this as a plausible scenario. “There’s always a lingering doubt in my mind,” admits one House Democrat. Obama knows that putting his fingerprints on the deal is an easy way to kill it; when a draft of his proposal leaked in the press, he called Republican negotiators individually to apologize. But if negotiations in Congress bog down, he may not be so hands off.

By all accounts, negotiators are making genuine progress toward a landmark deal that builds on a foundation laid during its last fumbled attempts. But lawmakers still have to thread a bill through a thicket of obstacles in a bitterly divided Congress. Sources close to the negotiations say they expect both chambers to introduce legislation in early April, giving Congress several months to haggle out a pact before members scatter for their summer recess. It sounds like plenty of time, but it’s not. Immigration will have to jockey for attention this spring with gun control, budgets and a potential grand bargain on tax and entitlement reform. Meanwhile, the human cost of the political stalemate is high. Each day, 1,400 undocumented immigrants are deported.

(PHOTOS: America’s Undocumented Immigrants)

For now, Washington is optimistic. “I believe we are finally at a moment where comprehensive reform is within our grasp,” Obama said in January. This is the best chance in a generation, but there are reasons a deal has been so hard to come by.

— With reporting by Massimo Calabresi

157 comments
gutierresenrique
gutierresenrique

Why you got to be to stupid to not understand what is the reality stop crying grow up and go back to school....

DaveFrancis
DaveFrancis

There is absolutely no justification to keep importing poverty, when we have our own people patiently seeking a job. The more migrants and immigrants who arrive here legally or illegally, the more financial woes tax payers will have to contend with in generations to come? It remains completely senseless, when millions of people are out of work and must look to government and charities for enough food stamps, or other welfare entitlements to get through a month. I am afraid that our politicians have fallen into the campaign trap, because they rely on special interests to build their chance of reelection. Why don't we have taxpayer funded elections, without corruption setting the standard in Washington? While we have special interest groups, there will never be a true government for the people? Now I am not saying every political personage is abusing the system, but many are and that’s the major dilemma on both sides of the aisle.In this firebrand of illegal immigration, much of the previous and future troubles could have been prevented, if entry into America was classed as a felony. But the real oddity, it’s not and this was probably the pressure from the corporate world, which wouldn't if this law had been passed get their fair share of cheap labor.

You would think that the big unions as the AFL-CIO and all those pressing for immigration reform would be more dominant in fighting against such issues. But now, how can this be, when 23 million or more Americans cannot locate a job to feed their families? Why doesn't the rank and file rise up against this indignities for a country deep in debt and could go under, during the present rule of President Obama.Then we have the gang of eight flirting with the lives of honest citizens and legal immigrants, with the 2 favorites in the GOP, who have now evolved into a pro-illegal alien crowd pleaser for the radical majority organizations, removing most restrictions from stopping more relentless foreign nationals from crossing our border, or just slipping on a airliner and entering as a simulated visitor, tourist or scholar. Daily we have this travesty as its not just people escaping poor countries, but years of pregnant females bringing an unseen fetus through immigration gates, readily to claim citizenship for the child once born?Probably other than Family Chain Migration, birthright citizenship forced upon taxpayers is the most expensive payout that cannot even be imagined. The estimate for States alone is in the 100 billion dollar mark. This law is a breach of any commonsense for any prudent person, especially the lawmakers who should enact legislation to repeal this law. IT JUST NEEDS THE FULL CRESCENDO OF AMERICAN INCENSED VOICES TO DEMAND THIS CHANGE, OTHERWISE THIS POLICY WILL REMAIN AND OUTRAGEOUSLY KEEP COSTING ANNUALLY OVER HUNDRED BILLIONS DOLLARS?

THE GANG OF EIGHT WILL SURELY BE ENTIRELY BLAMED FOR ANOTHER AMNESTY AND WILL CERTAINLY BE REMEMBERED WITH BITTER COLD FRUSTRATION, WHEN THE TIME FOR REELECTION COMES AROUND? THIS WILL ESPECIALLY BE RELEVANT IF THIS NEW COMPREHENSIVE IMMIGRATION REFORM ERUPTS INTO ANOTHER 1986 FRAUD.HOWEVER, POLITICIANS DON’T CARE, BECAUSE WHEN THEY RETIRE THEY HAVE A VERY LUCRATIVE JOB WAITING FOR THEM AS LOBBISTS, FOR THE SAME ENTITIES THEY WERE AWARDED FAVORS?

Before any exceptions of allowing illegal aliens to stay, the border fence must be built to the requirements of the 2006 Secure Fence plan. That means double or triple fencing, with fast access points for the movement on the Border patrol vehicles in the internal “No man’s land”.Unless we control our borders and have maximum enforcement in tracking visa overstays and even maritime checks. We must also demand mandatory E-Verify provision, accompanied by IMAGE program that authenticates legal workers and red flags foreign nationals. Absolutely before any mass immigration package, most definite is the requirement of a national ID card, which should be in the possession of every American and permanent resident and other with legal status.

 

DaveFrancis
DaveFrancis

As Calif. Drowns in Debt, Group Advocates For Free Healthcare for Illegal’s.

By Stephen Frank on 03/21/2013 who writes for California News and views.

California is in a Depression.We have a current debt/deficit of $90 billion—not even close to a balanced budget.Even the Democrat State Controller John Chiang admits the State has a $16.2 billion cash deficit, and that is only part of what we owe.

Now, the California Endowment, a leftist think tank, wants to give free health care to illegal aliens.That, of course, will become a magnet for more illegal aliens to sneak into our country and State.While our young and elderly are waiting on long lines, as the doctor shortage grows each day, along with our deficit, these folks prefer you pay for health care for criminals from foreign nations than be able to receive health care for yourself and your family.

This is part of a propaganda video sent out by the group—could make you cry, ““I'm undocumented, but I dream that one day we will all be treated as one people, because we are one people,” the young people tell viewers. “Now, our country has spoken saying that everyone should have affordable healthcare.”

“I dream that one day, everyone will include me,” they say.

This new burden would drive the state further into bankruptcy. California is already rated as one of the worst run states in the nation.”

With inept governor as Jerry Brown holding the State purse strings, when a state like California is falling to the risk of millions more illegal aliens spilling across either national border, under the potential of a significant blanket immigration reform bill shortly.Why would they subvert money from the diluted treasury, when seniors and other destitute Americans are reeling from the continuous cuts to their health care, including dental treatment?This is not just a possibility in California, but even upon the strained resources of Arizona, plus the rest of the 50 states.It’s absolutely inevitable that the Imperial potentate Obama and his executive disciples are not going to keep their word, but unleash on the unsuspecting public, health care for everybody no matter the financial predicament it leads too?

The lawmakers in Washington should get it in their brains that 11 to 25 million or more illegal aliens should not obtain any Path to Citizenship or anything else, specifically when hard working taxpayers are their benefactor. Just the dispensation of this many people will be an added expense to the near 17 Trillion dollars we owe foreign nations such as China and Arab investors. How can we keep on adding more people to the welfare rolls, when millions of citizens and permanent residents are waiting patiently at food banks in line with foreign nationals for food stamps? We cannot give any ground of any kind is to exchange blows, by confronting politician in any method possible, to even calling them through the Central Washington at (202) 224-312. . LEARN THE AUTHENTICITY OF OUR SINGLE FENCE AT THE BORDER AND EXAMINE THE VEILED NEWS REPORTS AT AMERICANPATROL. ALSO SIGN THE PETITION AT THE NUMBERSUSA site to show your contempt. (Hundreds of thousands of infuriated citizens and lawful residents, have signed the petition already) Confront your Representative with post cards, challenging that they stop the current path to overpopulation, balkanization and taxing Americans to support foreigners. Inundate Facebook and Twitter with your attitude about the coming tempest, as the other side will do also. Make contact with your neighboring press and TV channels, because the end is near for rational thinking and the next strike on the smarting taxpayer. Nonetheless the best path is in getting results is a direct phone call to yourperson in Congress through the screening- aide and leave your clash against illegal immigration, insisting onthe real wall, e-verify, revoking illegal alien children gaining citizenship and of major value for security a nation ID card for every citizen and legal resident.

 

JohnGates1
JohnGates1

the most thoughtful articles I have read on immigration in last month...

ollieallears
ollieallears

You have so many undocumented workers because no proper visa exists for unskilled labor. First you must create a visa category, then you can enforce it.

And how are you going to reduce immigration by 95 % per quota ? 

First of all, for US citizens there exists no quota re. the numbers of spouses, children (unmarried under 21), fathers and mothers they can petition for. These are Immediate Relatives, they do not have to wait for a visa#. In total: about 450,000 - 500,000 permanent immigrants per year.

There are categories for relatives of UScitizens, that have waiting times from a bit long to very long: married children, children over 21, brothers and sisters. This adds over 100,000 - 150,000 immigrants a year.

Permanent Residents/green card holders, are also allowed family reunion, but only with spouses and unmarried children under 21. That is 150,000-200,000 newcomers a year, but these family members wait often more than five years for admission.

Then there is a group, in the last few years around 125,000 - 150,000 I thought, refugees and asylumseekers.

And then there is the Diversity Lottery, a green card raffle, with 55,000 winning lots every year,

That leaves, for highly skilled labor, scientists etc., just under 150,000 permanent visas, and this incl. the wives, children, and also the investors.

So how are you going to do it ?

Are you going to tell a US Citizen he/she cannot import the foreign girl or guy they met vacationing abroad, or in an internet chat room ? And what if the beloved is a high school drop out ?

Same for the children, the moms/dads, the siblings. They need not be educated, they come because a US Citizen sponsors them. Five years later they are citizens themselves - the spouses in three years bytheway. And thus able - if they have the income or the assets, to sponsor more family members.

See now why I think the Immigration system needs an overhaul ?



armon
armon

...and the lies continue. Wake-up America, this is not your country anymore. Immigration reform is a sham. What's left of the middle class is being sold to the highest bidder by, the mercenary politicians on both sides for votes, big business (and big unions) for cheap labor and the dwindling religious groups for new congregants and ethnic advocacy groups for obvious reasons....AND, don't forget the media with their 24 hour news cycle inflaming the so-called left and right political points of view on a near constant basis. Are there no independent thinkers anymore? The important issues, like factual information, regarding the true impact of illegal immigration on this massive a scale gets lost in this political football. This is an economic impact story, period.

ChristopherMacQueen
ChristopherMacQueen

5. The American People. The American People being the ones with the most to lose if any immigration reform goes through. They are the ones footing the bill and who's jobs are taken due to illegal immigration. The American People have been speaking loudly not that the Media which are in the pockets of the liberal agenda or politicians care to listen. The American People have already said NO to giving legal status to illegal aliens many times and continue to do so.

IsraelMedinaCotta
IsraelMedinaCotta

To all those who claim, that illegals immigrants would take their jobs, how many white people you see working at Mc donalds or a taco place? Doing landscape work?(if any they are, is usually bossing around illegals) how about working in farms picking crops or how about working for Tyson Foods in those back braking jobs? most of them don't go see a doctor for a flu, and if they go will only be in an emergency life or death situation, I know many of them like my brother who work work 30 plus years and paid taxes and will never be able to collect a penny in SS, as he is now retired in Mexico, and are many in this same situation,most of them just want to work and be left alone, I am coming from a mixed extended family some of us are legal some are not, when I lost my job a couple years ago I could have collected $400 a week on unemployment benefits but I choose not cause I don't wanted to be a "Welfero" I suck it up and took a lower paying job, most immigrants don't complaint and whine we suck it up cause we don't take nothing from granted and we do love this country so stop hating cause this is gonna happen whether you like it or not 

kerthialfad
kerthialfad

CIR need to end automatic birth citizenship, repeal the Cuban Adjustment Act, ban sanctuary cities, and end chain migration.

 Is that ever so clear?

drudown
drudown

How about the term "Amnesty and Naturalization" because that would be the most intellectually honest, correct? 

Here, the author inexplicably fails to question the Constitutionality of (1) granting 11,000,000-20,000,000+ people mass "amnesty" for violating Immigration Law(s) and (2) diluting the Electoral College by giving citizens of other sovereign an unprecedented opportunity to swing elections. This is nothing short of outrageous given less "onerous" means (i.e,, in terms of vote dilution) are obviously available. 

As an aside, how is the "legislation" not void ab initio on account of giving similarly situated people (e.g., people with statutory violations) different treatment (i.e., amnesty) under Federal law? It clearly violates the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment. 

"Man, if you gotta ask, you'll never know." - Louis Armstrong (asked to define Jazz)

jdyer2
jdyer2

I consider myself a liberal, and usually vote Democratic, but for the life of me can't see the big need for more immigrants.  The southwest is running out of water, the Hoover Dam turbines will come to a halt in a few years as the dam water level dropsbelow the turbines.  We have more people than we have jobs for.  I realize this is somewhat an issue of what to do with the folks already here, but that number will double when they all bring their relatives into the country.  I have to reach the conclusion that the Democratic party wants this for the votes, not for the best interest of the country. 

Paul137
Paul137

@ollieallears  

Certainly end the diversity visa lottery.  Also shut down the refugee/asylum program, 95% of which is fraudulent (just a back-door route to legal immigration), as former Assistant INS Commissioner Jan Ting (now a law prof at Temple University in Philly) said in 2003, when I asked him about refugees and asylees.

Make **all** immigration employment-based, so it would be single people only (unless both members of a married couple qualified to immigrate individually).  And set the thresholds high.  There's no **need** for any immigration -- it's basically just a favor to foreigners -- so we might as well not accept anyone besides superstars.

If it's almost entirely single people who immigrate, they'll have every reason to assimilate, something that's not happening now with the massive chain migration of extended families (and even more so because such a large fraction is coming from Spanish-speaking countries).

The criterion, **always**, should be "What's good for the American citizenry?", not "What's good for immigrants?" nor "What will the rest of the world think about us?" (Much of the rest of the world doesn't allow any significant immigration, anyway, so they'd be hypocritical to complain.)

gutierresenrique
gutierresenrique

@armon another hater how many haters does America has? do you think america would be better with out haters? or I can say people with no brains.

gutierresenrique
gutierresenrique

@ChristopherMacQueen What are you? stupid, retard, got no brain in you head stop crying like a little baby put your self to work in stead wait for the illegal immigrants work for you so you can collect more money of an unemployment and the SS grow up......

Paul137
Paul137

@IsraelMedinaCotta  

A lot of those jobs are traditional "starter" jobs for American kids, not career positions.  I did menial jobs growing up in Chicago in the 1950s and 1960s.  (Today I'm a PhD physical scientist.)

But American kids are now effectively excluded from a lot of those jobs, because the employers can hire illegal aliens who will often work cheap (because they're illegal).  

Plus, many times American kids are excluded from such jobs because they don't speak a foreign language, so they won't be able to work with the illegal aliens already there.  What sense does it make that a native-born citizen should have to learn a foreign language to get a low-level job in his/her own country?

And sometimes the illegal aliens make the workplace actively hostile to the American kids who try to work there anyway, despite the impediments.

If every illegal alien in the U.S. suddenly vanished, the country would do just fine, adjusting to the abrupt change in short order.  That's what dynamic economies do.

And you can't truly believe that, if illegal aliens all suddenly disappeared like that, that we Americans would all just sit around and starve!

ChristopherMacQueen
ChristopherMacQueen

@IsraelMedinaCotta Less then 1% of jobs illegal aliens do is agricultural. The other jobs you listed I have seen plenty of Americans willing to work those in the past and plenty are still looking to work those. McDonalds finds people easy, so do other faster foods, construction, resteraunts, working in factories of all sorts. Even landscape work as long as its real landscape work. But if you want your front yard mowed and to lazy hire the local kid. You see Americans doing these jobs all over in states with low illegal immigration, its not like Americans in 1 state refuse that kind of work.

drudown
drudown

@IsraelMedinaCotta 

The illegal immigrants here are a tremendous fiscal burden on the People of the United States. 

If we don't sensibly confront how these costs are paid, whether or not "reform" passes or not, there is still the reality of Lifeboat Ethics. Spare me the "white people won't do lower jobs bit." I started working at Subway in 9th grade. Oh, I've visited 6 continents and have yet to find a sovereign where I can magically acquire voting rights and the privileges and immunities of citizenship. Perhaps you could identify a corollary in any other instance?


kerthialfad
kerthialfad

those are my four hurdles.  hurt-les

gutierresenrique
gutierresenrique

@jdyer2 immigrants won't come to the USA if there wouln't be no jobs all of you that are against illegals. you need to go to school and perhaps you learn how to honest and realistic. some times I ask  my self what is in this peoples brains maybe don't have any........

jskdn
jskdn

@jdyer2 There are plenty of rank and file Democrats that share your sentiments but pretty much no Democrats politicians that do. Democrats see the demographics resulting from illegal immigration as the path to power and don't mind using illegality as the mechanism to get it. 

ollieallears
ollieallears

@Paul137 @ollieallears So you suggest that when somebody is needed for a job, he or she just divorces and then goes to the US alone. So much for family values.

You have never immigrated to another country have you ? Well to do it succesfull, you need preferably to be together. Immigration is hard, you get lonely, you get home sick. You need support.

Your assimilation idea, after 20 years in the US I can tell you, most USers are completely not interested in foreigners and prefer to keep them out where-ever they can. USers are only interested in somebody when they can squeeze money out of him or her. 

And why would I assimilate, and what on earth does that mean ? 

And yes there is need for immigration, if you want to sell products all over the world, you need people from all over the world to develop and design them. In many ways the US overestimates itself. Seeing immigration as "a favor to foreigners" is another example of US hubris.

I really do not think that some 250,000 - 300,000 people a year are willing to give up the right to be with HIM or HER here in the US in married bliss.

Paul137
Paul137

What an inane comment, gutierresenrique.

The U.S. exists to benefit its own citizens, not for the convenience of foreigners.  If those foreigners' presence doesn't benefit us -- and to an overwhelming majority of us citizens it doesn't -- then they shouldn't be here.  We owe them nothing.  Case closed.

IsraelMedinaCotta
IsraelMedinaCotta

@Paul137 @IsraelMedinaCotta  You have a great point right there this jobs are starter for American kids but consider this:

1.-I don't think there are enough American kids to fill the jobs at all times,employers most of them think these type of workers are unrealiable and not as hard working as illegals. ask any restaurant owner

2.-This "American kids" live at home,drive their parents cars, and spend their money mostly on video games and junk, therefore contributing less to the economy 

3.-Illegals live in apartments or houses maybe two families at the time in most cases, they pay rent buy groceries,cars,pay utility bills, a port money to the SS from their paychecks and a lot of them file taxes using their ITIN number and therefore contribute more to the economy!! And no they cant get food stamps and go to the doctor unless they are really sick and if and their contribution to society will most likely offset any spend made to the goverment.


IsraelMedinaCotta
IsraelMedinaCotta

@drudown @IsraelMedinaCotta Yean I have a U.S. Passport like I said I come from a mixed family and I can only talk from my experience and most of the people I know don't really care about being a citizen, some do some don't the majority just want to work and be left alone and yes some are here to abuse the system, I even dislike them therefore the term "Welfero" but not all are the same and I don't care how many continents you have travel I am talking about the reality from my point of view and I respect your opinion I am not trying to convince anybody, this is just my opinion.  

Paul137
Paul137

gutierresenrique

You've shown by your comments here that you have nothing to offer beyond clumsy, semi-literate insults.

And Hispanic chauvinism.

ollieallears
ollieallears

@ BL Thank you for your nice words. 

Maybe I write too personal. But what I want to tell is that yes immigrants gain - sometimes a lot, sometimes less - but they also leave a lot behind, have to let go of a lot that was important.

ollieallears
ollieallears

@Paul137 @ollieallears At least we have something on common.

But wasn't there a movement to locate Afican Americans back - a country was even created for that purpose, Liberia.

I think if you live for several years in this country, contributing, then yes you can make some demands - like getting some Status and no longer having to fear LaMigra.

And too much 'chutzpah' was once attributed to another group of people, in another country, in another time. It led to some of the most horrible crimes in the past century. Few things are as dangerous as vilifying people, accusing them of all kinds of ills in a society. Somebody our age should know that by now.

Paul137
Paul137

@ollieallears 

I wasn't a teenager until the 1960s.  

And the cases of blacks and Mexicans have no resemblance. 

Blacks were here because their ancestors had been brought here as slaves.

Mexican illegal aliens are here as gate-crashers, uninvited but, nevertheless, making demands.  Their chutzpah is awesome, while also being despicable.

IsraelMedinaCotta
IsraelMedinaCotta

@ollieallears @Paul137  Please don't waste your time with Paul as he mentioned in my comment he was a teenager in the 50's  and went to college I can only assume he is one of those Baby boomers Angry white old man, he it's just mad cause Romney lost, back in the 50's he probably hated Blacks!! and now is the Mexicans illegal aliens but don't worry their kind is begging to extinct that is why the republicans realize now that they can not win elections only on the angry white old man vote, the country is changing and they have to adjust, don't worry Paul you will most likely will not be around to see that, and the only reason I am saying this is because your generation is getting older.

ollieallears
ollieallears

@drudown @ollieallears @Paul137 

I have said there should be a visa system for unskilled labor which makes it possible for some to come here documented if they are really needed.

I am in favor or a complete E-Verify system, mandatory for all employers.

I have also proposed conditional green cards that will not lead to citizenship. I have in none of my postings pleaded for citizenship.

I just am in favor of a good solution that makes that people who contribute here do not have to live in fear for deportation.

In my opinion citizenship is a not a good option as long as the US Immigration system stays as family based as it is now.

Also, Mexico changed its law some 12 years ago, allowing dual citizenship. That should make the US think twice about (also) citizenship for this large group. 

Many other countries prohibit dual citizenship and that makes for some (I for one) the decision yes or no very hard, and often not really an option. What is you want/need to go back home ?

Most western countries have allowed in large numbers of immigrants, and have large numbers of illegal immigrants. Also there it is hard to come up with good policies. 

I am still unclear why some politicians push so hard for citizenship, so fast. Most work related legal immigrants wait 10 - 15 years, now all of a sudden that is too long ? Is this because both your parties want more voters, quickly ?

drudown
drudown

@ollieallears @Paul137 

Ollie, I want you to cite a single corollary to the proposed "amnesty" in ANY Western Industrialized Nation, i.e., where 20,000,000 illegal immigrants were magically transmuted into full-fledged citizens.

You know, I get it. Having seen the entire world, I understand EVERY single person on this God-forsaken Earth wants a better life for his/her family. But Lifeboat Ethics works and is along with Sovereignty. Get real.

ollieallears
ollieallears

@Paul137

Excuse me now that I laugh so hard my sides split. You invented it all, just by yourselves ? Nothing was based on work from others ? And you have it all already, do not new products, new applications of ?

You should look up how many of Nobel prizes awarded to USers were the result of work (also) from immigrants. If not first, then second generation.

Did you read what I wrote ? We came because my husband was offered a job. Not to amuse you with 'aspects of my country'. Where do you get these ideas, rather idiotic if you ask me.

Why would I want you to adjust to me ? I do not want/need that at all. What would be the purpose of that ?

I said immigrants tend to be homesick from time to time, that's why it is good to be together so you can support one another. It makes the transition easier.

When we moved, phonecalls were expensive, you could not go online with other expats, you could not read newspapers from your country, or see television clips from your country, on-line, etc.

Indeed I do not regard the US as my home. It is the place where I now live. Home is back home. Why would I feel at home here ? I have been made clear from day one I was not welcome here, not allowed to work, not allowed to build a life. 

Go home ? Yeah probably someday, and honestly, that keeps me going. 

Paul137
Paul137

ollieallears

You evade the basic point that we don't need immigration. (We don't need foreigners to design products that interest people elsewhere.  The bedrocks of the modern technological world -- the transistor, the intergrated circuit, the laser, and recombinant DNA -- were all invented by native-born Americans.)

Should Americans be interested in you simply because you're of foreign origin?  Why?  

Assimilation means that you adjust to us and don't expect us to adjust to you.  After all, you came here.  Maybe you'll show us some things that impress us and that we'll take up (and thank you), but those of us who are intrinsically interested in aspects of the country you hale from can go be tourists there.  We don't need to import people from there en masse to cater to such an interest that only some of us have.

And if you feel homesick, that means you don't regard the U.S. as home.  So go home.   


Paul137
Paul137

@BenevolentLawyerer

I have been immersed in learning about what immigration is doing to the American nation for fifteen years, starting with when I lived in southern California and much of it was in my face.  I'm qualified to say that every facet of our immigration regime amounts to a victimization of the American citizenry.

As for celebrities and all that swamp of American life, I don't even have a TV.  But if I did, I'd be too busy to ever watch it.

With a PhD in the physical sciences from the University of Chicago and being widely and deeply read over a range of public affairs well beyond immigration, I could bounce a slob like you, "and others of your ilk," off the walls, intellectually speaking.

 

AnneVincent
AnneVincent

@Paul137 @IsraelMedinaCotta All children in the US are eligible for food stamps....whether they were born here or not. Families with illegal parents get food stamps for all the kids....as many as are claimed to be in the home. Families get about $600. -$700./ month in my town (in California); which certainly supplements inadequate incomes from the parents, along with the "free" meals at school, "free" bus rides to school, "free" medical care for all the kids under age 18, "free" dental care provided by a private group via a dental van at schools, supplemented housing via HUD (which is supposed to be for only US citizens), etc. These freebies are provided to all those who claim to be eligible because of low-income.....but the documentation for those without SS#'s is not possible. Thus, American families who are struggling without adequate income are going without help (they don't qualify with even the small income that they have) and any Hispanic family that is willing to lie on those forms is obtaining assistance. That is the rub. If there was adequate financial assistance for all who need it, it wouldn't be so disturbing.

IsraelMedinaCotta
IsraelMedinaCotta

@drudown @IsraelMedinaCotta @Paul137 That is the question of the million dollars my point is, you guys always blame the illegals and like I said they are not solely to blame don't let be brain washed by politicians and the blame game "Those damn illegals" if they repeat it a thousand times through  your head, it becomes true even if is not. 

drudown
drudown

@IsraelMedinaCotta @Paul137 

Even, assuming, arguendo, there is, in fact, a "constant" need for illegal labor...what about the proposed amnesty is going to address that? Zip. 

IsraelMedinaCotta
IsraelMedinaCotta

@Paul137 @IsraelMedinaCotta Again very good points you do there sir but you sir live (as a teen)in the golden era of this country were having a job in a fast food joint was  a right of passage then college,get a good job get married buy a house with a white picket fence and raise a family, but most of these American kids now days have a self entitlement attitude and always demanding from their parents, having a Bachelors now days is like a High school diploma twenty years ago and good luck paying your students loans, long gone are the days that with a high school diploma you can get a factory job with benefits and live with a single income, back then the illegals were still doing the mundane jobs they do today but American citizens did not care cause they still have those nice paying jobs union and benefits, but corporate greed took those jobs to China and many places.


That caused a void because of the corporations looking for cheap labor, once those jobs disappear  American found themselves looking at illegals and the blame game start, "Is those damn illegals" Politicians and big corporations wanted you to think that, in any case illegals are not sole to blame we, live in this hungry monster called the USA, and that big monster feeds on cheap labor,Drugs, and Oil, bottom line as long as there is a need for cheap labor, there will be a supplier that will fill those (Think Mexico and Latin America) Drugs, well the same people that supply the cheap labor!! Oil well you know those guys that call us infidels. And as Why Gas is not cheap after we invade those countries that are full with it, well very simple ask Texaco,Shell or BP. 


Bottom line as long there is a need for cheap labor cause greedy corporations will not pay a fair wage to an American citizen, there will be the need for illegal labor and that Mr. Paul is the reality, so don't let yourself to be brainwashed they are not solely to blame and at some point they are victims, wake up!! go yell at all those politicians that you vote for(Mainly Republicans) and yell at those Fat cats CEO's don't blame the illegals for everything!! Thanks

Paul137
Paul137

@IsraelMedinaCotta 

Those sorts of things you describe -- wherein American society seems to "need" illegal aliens -- have developed over time.  If illegal aliens hadn't been available, the society would have done just fine.

1&2: And it was much better without such illegal immigration, because we were developing our own people, which is something any society has to do to survive.  So, yes, an individual employer may be immediately better off by having an adult (especially a desperate adult here illegally) steadily working a job, rather than having a flow of youngsters "passing through" the job (so that training needs to be done over and over again).  But that's penny-wise and pound-foolish.  It delays maturation of our own youth and is thus bad for the society overall, thus ultimately hurting such employers, too.

It also lets American youth develop bad habits and bad attitudes: Such jobs are beneath them, they're "for illegals." And the kids expect their parents to buy them all sorts of stuff they "need."  But if they were the ones who had to earn the money for those "needs," more sensible choices would result.  And they wouldn't be wasting time, cruising the malls (as you suggest) and getting fat.

3. Once there's a mas market economy, there are no benefits of adding people to it, since all the economies of scale have been reaped.  And think about it: Does it help any of us to have more people buying, say, gasoline?  If anything, that just raises the prices for everybody.

Then there's the bit about two families, say, cramming into a single apartment.  But that doesn't increase the property taxes associated with the apartment, so the two families will be a more-than-proportionate burden on schools and other tax-funded facilities.  They're definitely not paying their way.

A lot of illegal aliens don't pay income taxes, working for cash.  Of those who work for actual paychecks and file tax returns using ITINs, many do so only because they'll collect EITC and ACTC -- they get more than 100% refund and, thus, actually pay negative taxes.

And although they can't **legally** get food stamps, many do fraudulently.  And in any event, they can get food stamps and other welfare for their U.S.-born children.  Those children are U.S. citizens, but they wouldn't be here, burdening us taxpayers, if their illegal alien parents weren't here.  So they're a real cost of illegal immigration to the American people.