In the Arena

Things We REALLY Need to Start Talking About

  • Share
  • Read Later

Barack Obama’s victory–which becomes more pronounced every day, as the final votes are counted–has obviously opened the door to a negotiation over tax increases, in which the Republicans will have to make concessions. But there are other formerly taboo subjects that need to be discussed in Washington.

Gun control, for instance. The ever-estimable Bob Costas said it all yesterday, in primordial male land, during half time of a football game. He quoted the Fox sports columnist Jason Whitlock, who argued that if the Kansas City linebacker Javon Belcher didn’t own a handgun, he and his girlfriend would probably be alive. Well, I’m not sure that’s entirely true–Belcher was a large, strong man and it is not unknown for such men to visit fatal violence upon women…or to commit suicide by driving off a bridge. But it is unquestionably true that we have a blood tide of gun carnage in this country, and that there are smart, reasonable gun control laws that need to be enacted within the context of the Second Amendment. The National Rifle Association has become increasingly disassociated from reality; the need for constant fund-raising will do that to you. And worse, the NRA has engaged in some really rancid fear-mongering about Barack Obama’s position on gun control, which increases the possibility, now that he’s been reelected, that some nut case with a semi-automatic will try to go after the President. The truth is quite the opposite of the NRA’s fever fantasies. Obama has punted on gun control. We need to reopen that debate.

And a few others, too: Climate change, for one. Immigration, for another. The actual shape and scope of Obamacare, and the way it meshes with our other public health care plans, for another. Racial preferences, too–although I suspect the Supreme Court is about to reopen that one in a fairly spectacular way pretty soon. The point is, Barack Obama no longer faces an electoral cliff, but he does have a legacy to build. The first step is to resolve the current budget negotiation. But there must be other steps. There are too many things that our poll-driven, oversensitized-to-fundraising politicians haven’t been talking about for too long.

75 comments
Leftcoastrocky
Leftcoastrocky

"Obama has punted on gun control. We need to reopen that debate."  Joe, I urge YOU to start it and with specific proposals.

JeremyKeat
JeremyKeat

We have trusts, monopolies, oligopolies (which in a true free market wouldn't exist for most) taking over agriculture, energy, water, telecommunication/ISPs, media, finance/banking and healthcare. We have useless wars being fought to protect Afghan drug trade, special interest reasons for attacking Iraq and pushing for an invade of Iran, private contractors taking gov contracts acting outside military control/protocol and numerous crimes against humanity. Zionist hijackers of American economy. A corrupt and failure system of war on drugs which promotes Mexican cartels. A broken as hell patent/copyright system, especially in the medical field and many technological fronts. Last 2 presidents have committed numerous impeachment worthy offenses attacking our constitution, particularly our bill of rights.

Instead top issues keep being abortion, gays, health insurance, taxes, immigration, general welfare(not corporate) and constant tip-toeing around gun control. Don't we have other big fish to fry? You know actual things destroying this country? Why do we let these go unchecked?

Sax1031
Sax1031

Prohibition has historically worked very well

-said no one

gysgt213
gysgt213

We have already trained people to believe climate change if it actually exists is to costly to fix (in other words doing anything about climate change will cost you your job) and that Obama just wants to take way their guns.  Not sure what's left to talk about.

drudown
drudown

What the United States needs is to accept reality. The reality that we are wasting precious fiscal resources fighting a "war" on drugs that has wrought as much, if not more, unwanted violence than the guns journalists such as Klein make a half-hearted attempt to control. One need look to the lawless chaos in Mexico to see how the drug trade has wrecked an entire sovereign's ability to enforce a Police Power. What, if the US passed gun laws we'd all be safer from the Cartel? How's this. Regulate and tax the drugs people use recreationally, thereby eliminating the need for meth and other "substitutes" that partial legalization could obviate. Secondly, we need to have a reality check over crimes of "terrorism". If someone lights a structure on fire, it's arson. Whether done for political motives is irrelevant. If the events in KC teach anything, it's that people are violent and unpredictable. Period. So whether analyzing Benghazi or "eco-arson", our elected officials need to remember that murder is murder and there is no reason to call it terrorism and purport to live in some new world that takes away our freedoms at home, nor was the world abroad ever "safe". The sooner we accept the reality that both the "war" on terror and drugs has helped create the reality we abhor, the sooner we can enact policies to stave off the consequences we'd prefer to avoid.

dobermanmacleod
dobermanmacleod

Procrastination has it's benefits.  For instance, the current prescription for global warming is cutting emissions by forcing extra costs associated with the burning of fossil fuels, but soon mankind will dramatically and rapidly cut their emissions to save money big-time because of a new energy technology called LENR:

"A volume about the size of a #2 pencil eraser of water provides as much energy as two 48-gallon drums of gasoline. That is 355,000 times the amount of energy per volume – five orders of magnitude." ( http://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/New-LENR-Machine-is-the-Best-Yet.html ).This phenomenon (LENR) has been confirmed in hundreds of published scientific papers: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJtallyofcol.pdf"Over 2 decades with over 100 experiments worldwide indicate LENR is real, much greater than chemical..." --Dennis M. Bushnell, Chief Scientist, NASA Langley Research Center"Total replacement of fossil fuels for everything but synthetic organic chemistry." --Dr. Joseph M. Zawodny, NASABy the way, here is a survey of some of the companies that are bringing LENR to commercialization: http://www.cleantechblog.com/2011/08/the-new-breed-of-energy-catalyzers-ready-for-commercialization.htmlFor those who still aren't convinced, here is a paper I wrote that contains some pretty convincing evidence: http://coldfusionnow.org/the-evidence-for-lenr/

shepherdwong
shepherdwong

Jesus, Klein, now you want to be a liberal?! Well too bad, you're thirty years too late. 

The country is now awash in guns, including high-capacity assault weapons. What are you going to do now, start a government confiscation program? Good luck with that, the only thing you'll accomplish is to give Wayne LaPierre a woody. Likewise  "climate change" (you can't even manage to call it what it is). Anyway, it's too late to do anything about that as well. You may have noticed, the planet is already rapidly heating, feedback loops have started, ice sheets are melting, the seas are swallowing cities, etc., and we're on track to substantially increase the amount of carbon in the atmosphere for decades.

Immigration and racial justice are shortly going to be resolved electorally and permanently, probably more quickly than they would otherwise had the Republican Party not decided to commit suicide with it's overt racism.

Face it, you turned your back on liberalism thirty years ago (like the most of the rest of the Beltway Establishment) when you might have made a difference on these issues. Now they've passed you by.

TimothyRatliffe
TimothyRatliffe

I'm a southerner, lived inTexas a lot of years, a gun owner, and I would love to see a realistic approach to immigration, gun control, social policy, and economic policy. Neither political party seems to be very realistic on any of this, but the Republicans are absolutely in la-la land.

notsacredh
notsacredh

Heigh ho, heigh ho, it's off to work I go. have fun folks.

notsacredh
notsacredh

Immigration reform is going to be a hoot. The right wing has to appeal to a minority or risk getting their asses kicked in future elections. It's like Charlie Brown trusting Lucy not to snatch the football away again.

outsider
outsider

Coincidence that the NRA is losing touch with reality, and that they support the GOP?

PaulDirks
PaulDirks

Actually I'd put 'voting rights" at the top of the list and then allow for all of those other issues to take care of themselves in due course. Obama's victory doesn't negate the fact that partisan control of the electoral process is at the heart of our inability to address the other issues in a rational manner. 

FWIW, I think that global warming is a lost cause. The damage is already done......

carolerae
carolerae

We need to talk about Boehner & the TParty Caucus.  They plan to stop all government.  There's at least 60 who don't agree with most of the issues you mentioned.  Nothing moves unless they agree.  They were purchased by Freedom Works, Grover, the Chamber, etc to do nothing except stop government.  How do you fix that?  Boehner answers to them.

DonQuixotic
DonQuixotic

Uh oh JK, if you want to see the right go really nutty all you have to do is mention Gun Control.  Many of them are convinced Obama is out to get their firearms, never mind that he hasn't made any anti-gun push since becoming President.  The NRA will continue to spoon-feed their supporters the idea that he is, however, because fear is what keeps them rolling in the money from their shallow base.

JeremyKeat
JeremyKeat

To clarify the first part on the major industries, the problem is limited to only those and in general is is fascism and pandering to specific corporations at the cost of fair opportunity to citizens and increased tax-demand (AKA spending). Too much money the government has funneled to private organizations for profit and is using all sorts of exploitative laws and regulations local and federal to prevent local competition.The federal reserve has had greate impact on economy than all of our presidents and that is something that has been kept well in the shadows from public eye and many people haven't a clue of what they do, when they are dealing with trillions of government dollars/spending on nobody else's discretion. Our military industrial complex needs to be put in check for our security and our economy.

PaulDirks
PaulDirks

@gysgt213 The best time to address our fossil fuel dependence would have been just around the year Reagan was inaugurated. We've wasted over thirty years.

Leftcoastrocky
Leftcoastrocky

@shepherdwong "too late to do anything about climate change," you said.  WRONG. In fact, it is more important and urgent than ever.   And as an interim start, replace coal fired plants with natural gas fired plants, and stop exporting coal to other countries.

kbanginmotown
kbanginmotown

@shepherdwong While I agree that Joe deserves a derisive "FU" on occasion (ok, weekly), I'm going to differ on your "It's too late"message.

I came of age in Cleveland after the Cuyahoga River fire in 1969, and understood the "Conventional Wisdom" of the 1970s to be that Lake Erie was "dead" and that it was going to be a generation before sea life returned anywhere near the north coast. Much to everyone's amazement, the Clean Water Act did its trick and by 1980, Walleye were being  caught in Vermillion, 40mi west of Cleveland. It took an act of Congress, but Lake Erie was (mostly) saved. Since then, the "Dead Zone" around the mouth of the Cuyahoga has all but disappeared.

Yes, starting to combate Global Warming 30 years ago would have been better. But, starting today is the next best thing...

RoccoJohnson
RoccoJohnson

@sacredh 

So are you saying the flood of illegal immigrants pouring in from Mexico and obtaining public services from the United States is no big deal? Is that what you mean by "immigration reform?"

notsacredh
notsacredh

How the GOP is going to appeal to anyone other than angry white guys is something I have a hard time imagining. They've built their brand on the southern strategy and appeal for a world the way it was 50 years ago. It's a whole different ball game now and it's only moving further away from them. Having a committee of all old white guys deciding birth control issues for women isn't an image that a few words is going to wish away. The have to change and not just say that they're going to change.

kbanginmotown
kbanginmotown

@PaulDirks Reposting my comment from above:

I came of age in Cleveland after the Cuyahoga River fire in 1969, and understood the "Conventional Wisdom" of the 1970s to be that Lake Erie was "dead" and that it was going to be a generation before sea life returned anywhere near the north coast. Much to everyone's amazement, the Clean Water Act did its trick and by 1980, Walleye were being caught in Vermillion, 40mi west of Cleveland. It took an act of Congress, but Lake Erie was (mostly) saved. Since then, the "Dead Zone" around the mouth of the Cuyahoga has all but disappeared.Yes, starting to combate\ Global Warming 30 years ago would have been better. But, starting today is the next best thing...

tommyudo
tommyudo

If the damage is already done, and most likely will intensify, then why do voting rights really matter , since we are screwed as a species?

Sue_N
Sue_N

@DonQuixotic You should have seen the guns and ammo flying off the shelves around here after Obama won (shades of 2008). The rationale (I use the word loosely) was "buy 'em before he confiscates 'em."

During the primary, one of our sheriff candidates ran on the promise that he would personally stop the gubmint from coming in and takin' our guns. It was, um, interesting, even for my red neck of the woods.

jmac
jmac

@DonQuixotic We are all owned by the NRA.  It's more powerful than Fox and the Press.   It's going to take a Nixon (Republican) goes to China to get any traction on the issue - or an Independent like Bloomberg running with that issue at the forefront.  No one running for a House seat can touch the issue - it's too powerful.  Just run and watch your mailbox fill - every day - with 3 by 5 cards from gun nuts.  Gun nuts who get out the vote.   

Sue_N
Sue_N

@PaulDirks @gysgt213 Exactly. I cannot imagine why we didn't get serious about alternative fuel sources after the embargo crisis. Imagine where we'd be today.

But that would've involved embracing reality somewhere down the line, so …

dobermanmacleod
dobermanmacleod

@shepherdwong @dobermanmacleod Paradigm change is doubling each decade, so it is predictable that such a transformation from burning fossil fuel for energy, to using LENR, could happen as fast as cell phone technology spread.  BTW, did you ever hear of the software team that slayed two major industries in the course of a couple of months (VOIP and P2P file sharing)?  I know it is easy to be pessimistic about change, but technology is increasing at an exponential rate (and that rate is accelerating at an exponential rate due to LOAR).

I suggest you read this article: http://coldfusionnow.org/lenr-and-the-paradigm-of-abundance/

shepherdwong
shepherdwong

@kbanginmotown Sorry, kb, but the Earth's atmosphere isn't the Cuyahooga River and all of it's industrial effluents aren't the combined carbon output, past, present and future, of the human species, along with natural global warming feedback loops it is starting to set in motion. I realize that this sort of we're-all-effed (or our grandchildren, at least) truth-telling is the last thing anyone will choose to believe (and sounds more than a bit paranoid to the uneducated) but the known science - and the actual climate change - is basically in. Only desperate, radical attempts to re-engineer the climate could possibly save the ecosystem to support anything like current human civilization, if at all, beyond a century from now. Forgive me if I have my doubts about that.

We blew it. And by we, I mean Joe and all the rest of us boomers, which is why we're the last people who will accept the truth of it (except the liberals who understood the monumental truth of it all along). And Al Gore is fat. Sorry. But not as sorry as those opinion-makers who undermined the liberal truth since the age of Saint Ronald of Reagan and are now watching us reap the hot, hot whirlwind.

reallife
reallife

what illegals? President Kardashian has fixed the immigration problem! no one in their right mind is coming into this country anymore! for what? those people are poor, not stupid

mantisdragon91
mantisdragon91

@RoccoJohnson @sacredh They work, and pay taxes and get very little benefits in return. I have seen the moochers and they look like you and me and not the hard working immigrants you are trying to vilify.

jsfox
jsfox

@RoccoJohnson @sacredh No and either is anybody else. This line of thought only exists in the paranoid delusions of right.

Sue_N
Sue_N

@sacredh Haven't you heard? They're going to find a "better" way to present their policies. You know, talk nicer to us womenfolks, coloreds, illegals and poors.

Never mind the fact that it's their policies that suck.

DonQuixotic
DonQuixotic

@tommyudo 

We have to be considerate of the rights and privileges of the mutants that we will be leaving behind.

SteveWo42357647
SteveWo42357647

jmac, what you call gun nuts, I call protecting the 2nd Amendment.  This country was founded on guns and will stay free because of the everyday joe owning and pocessing guns.  Anit-gunners don't ever want to look at free societies in the past that revoked the right for citizens to protect themselves against the goverment, Germany comes to mind.  Our freedoms are being taking away from us everyday, and it is the very people that depend on the goverment for their success that support gun control.  If this continues, it will be the very same people wandering what happened the day they wake up and the  freedoms they once enjoyed are taken from them and then it will too late.

kbanginmotown
kbanginmotown

@Sue_N @PaulDirks @gysgt213The good news was that we instituted CAFE standards to improve fuel economy (which actually worked! My wife drove a Chevy Nova that got 45+ MPG back in 1986.)  

The bad news was that we exempted "light trucks" from CAFE calculations. And, when you put seats and a roof over the bed and turn it into SUV, it's still a "light truck", and when you put a 6.0L V8 into it and call it an Excursion/Suburban, it's still a "light truck", and now you're getting 6 MPG and burning a hole in the ozone every time you accelerate... :(

shepherdwong
shepherdwong

@dobermanmacleod Yeah, I made a funny and you keep skipping past the relevant parts of the present discussion: a billion cars still burning fossil fuels (120-year-old technology still in near universal use), existing warming and current natural feedback loops, powerful industries corrupting politics and policies, etc. Tell you what, stop trying to blow sunshine up everyone's skirts (simple climate engineering, yeah, what could go wrong) and keep the shades to yourself. You're going to need them.

dobermanmacleod
dobermanmacleod

@shepherdwong @dobermanmacleod There is a very simple and extremely cheap way to immediately cool down the Earth: just add a little (more) sun dimming aerosol into the upper atmosphere.  BTW, to say "technology has been increasing at a exponential rate since the Bronze Age" is magical thinking - you and I both know that isn't relevant to the present discussion about alternative energy technologies nor how fast technological change is occurring.  You are rationalizing your pessimistic beliefs - the future will be so bright we'll have to wear shades.

shepherdwong
shepherdwong

@dobermanmacleod I know the facts about energy technology, thanks. Know the facts about human behavior, industry, politics and oligarchy? Technology has been increasing at an exponential rate since the Bronze Age, fossil fuel replaced whale oil two centuries ago and we're burning more of it than ever. And, again, it's already too late. Even if we started running our pickup trucks and McMansions on cold-fusion reactors tomorrow, there's too much carbon already in the atmospheric pipeline and natural feedback loops (methane released from permafrost, reduced carbon uptake from drought, etc.) have already started. Stop waiting for LENR. Move north.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121127094250.htm

RoccoJohnson
RoccoJohnson

@mantisdragon91 @RoccoJohnson @sacredh 

People in the country illegally don't pay taxes. They're often times paid under the table by restaurants, hotels and produce jobs, as well as other industries. I never called them moochers, you did. I also never implied that they don't work hard or that they are not decent people. See my above comment for further explanation.

jsfox
jsfox

@RoccoJohnson @jsfox @sacredh Let's clear a few thing up shall we. One if you hospital was serving uninsured indigents, good for you, but unless you checked their documentation you have no idea whether they are here legally or not. Remember over 50 million people who are citizens who not have insurance and many of these poor. So without proof you cannot blame it on undocumented immigrants. Your complaint is a good argument for single payer or Obamacare.

Next the flood of undocumented people from mexico is now going the other way there are more Mexicans leaving than coming in, especially when you include the increase in deportations under Obama, which by the way are higher than any previous President. 

And finally had you responded like this, thoughtfully, and not like you did originally I may not have assumed you are paranoid delusional. 

RoccoJohnson
RoccoJohnson

@jsfox @RoccoJohnson @sacredh 

I live in the Pacific Northwest, a place where many hispanics migrate to. I have Mexican friends, and am in no way prejudiced against Mexicans, it just happens that Mexico is where the flood of illegals are coming from. 

There are so many violent crimes in Portland and Seattle committed by illegals that its very concerning. The vast majority of Mexicans that come into the States are law-abiding people just looking to provide for their families, nonetheless they are in the country illegally, and they are provided services that American taxpayers provide. 

As a former hospital administrator our emergency room was inundated with hispanic indigents, and they were a huge financial drain on the hospital. Our hospital is struggling to stay afloat in this small community, and whether you choose to accept it or not the unstemmed flow of illegals are placing a heavy financial drain on some communities. Most of my Mexican friends who are here legally as U.S. citizens, whether born here or their parents or grandparents came here, share my concerns about the unstemmed flow of illegals. 

Of course, many people in the central and eastern part of the country have little perspective on the problem because they don't see it first hand, so it doesn't affect them. These people naively, and provincially think that because they don't experience the problem it must be a myth.

And just to set the record straight I am not a right-winger, and I'm not a Republican.

tommyudo
tommyudo

LOL! Yeah, I've seen so many sci fi films from the 1950s that I should have remembered that. I'm sure there will ultimately be a species of gill people in the low lying coastal areas.

Sue_N
Sue_N

@SteveWo42357647 So, wait, you're upset that we're somehow losing "the right to protect our boarders" (and it's borders, btw), but you're also upset that you get searched while traveling along the Mexican border?

Isn't there just a bit of a disconnect there?

HudsonValleyTim
HudsonValleyTim

@WilliamWagg @DonQuixotic @SteveWo42357647   Untrue - Most of the handguns on the street started-out as legal-buys, albeit by strawmen who buy them at gun shows, or dealers in states where laws are so flimsy as to be virtually non-existant (Florida, the Gunshine State!).  Control is only possible if there is a federally enforced, uniform standard.  Otherwise, we're just kidding ourselves while killing each-other.

DonQuixotic
DonQuixotic

@SteveWo42357647 

Mexico is going through a monstrous drug war and has a tremendously different standard of living and poverty rate compared to us.  The analogy is silly.  You're misconstruing what I've said too.  Read it again:

Nobody ever suggest taking everyone's guns away from them, merely that individuals go through the proper screening and education when purchasing reasonable firearms (as in, no automatic weapons for public use). I just would like to see guns kept out of the hands of psychopaths.

SteveWo42357647
SteveWo42357647

It is illegal to own a firearm in Mexico.... How is that working out??? I see it 1st hand how it working out and it is inhuman.  Why??????? because the average person did not have the right to protect himself and the cartels and goverment knew it.   I will be happy to have you ride with me for a few days and see if you have the same opinion on gun control after you spend a few days in the Texas Rio Grande Valley. 

DonQuixotic
DonQuixotic

@SteveWo42357647 

Being pulled over and having your vehicle inspected for probable cause is hardly a loss of your rights, particularly when it's so seldomly abused, and if it is abused you have every right to prove so in court and get vindication.  If you don't want to live in a society where we have police with the right and responsibility to keep us safe and enforce the law (within the bounds we have set for them), you're free to leave.

MrObvious
MrObvious

@WilliamWagg @DonQuixotic

What rights? There are too many to list(...)

First off - there is no lack of freedom to choose what to eat and drink. None. If you want a sugar drink with 10000 calories then go ahead. If you want a triple pounder heart attacker. Be my guest.

There's absolutely no shortage in this country to find new ways to destroy ones body.

Second of all - you never had the right to protect our borders. That's a government type function. You're not an army of one and never was. It's not your job nor a 'natural' right that anyone have every talked about.

Third - you still have a right to create a business. But every single community have the right to ensure it works with their zoning. That have NOT changed under Obama or any other previous President. Nor is it a natural right that you have lost.

How do you think that pyschopaths and criminals get guns?

You live or you die. Your freedom to live or die in that moment is direct proportional to the amount of dying you will do.

Maybe you will survive if you have a gun, but as most statistics show you mostly won't. None of it will change radically based on how many freedom hording weapons you're allowed to own.

SteveWo42357647
SteveWo42357647

I did not say this had anything to do with Obama.  This is a result of goverment overstepping their boundaries and "we the people" allowing this to happen.  This is how we are losing our freedoms.  In your examples above, I do agree in most cases.  However, in my case it is just simple geoography and it is common practice by law officials to check everyone (time permmitting).  I live and travel the Mexico border quite a bit.  Like law enforcement profiles citizens I profile law enforcement agents.  Usually the young, local, that walk with a swagger will give me  a hard time.  My point is, it is wrong, and should not exsist, but it is too late to stop because the majority of the population allows it to happen.

DonQuixotic
DonQuixotic

@SteveWo42357647 

Most of those traffic laws have older precedent Steve.  In the 1999 case Wyoming v. Houghton, the courts also decided that an office may also search your personal belongings if they have probable cause to search your car.  There are many ways for them to obtain probable cause, and they have been doing so for years.  Typically this isn't really abused unless their "probable cause" falls under the grounds of racial stereotyping.

The Fourth Amendment, as it is generally understood, protects you from unreasonable search and seizure. The Supreme Court has looked at a number of cases involving Fourth Amendment rights and warrantless searches. In most instances, the officer can conduct a search if they have probable cause to do so. This is essentially a hunch backed up by reasonable suspicion. There may be something in your behavior, your physical appearance, or the physical appearance of your vehicle that would prompt an officer to search.

For example, you might have been pulled over because you were driving erratically. However, a smell coming from the car or signs of slowed reflexes on your part may have indicated you are using some type of drug or alcohol. If the officer decided to search your car from glove box to trunk based on the suspicion that you are using and possibly transporting an illegal substance, this would be probable cause.

I should point out that at no time in the last four years has this right been under threat by Obama or his Administration.

jsfox
jsfox

@SteveWo42357647 This country was founded on guns? What country do you live in because this one, The US was most certainly not. In fact when this country was founded most American did not own a gun. And this myth propagated by the NRA about free societies losing their freedom once gun rights were taken  away is just that myth making.

HudsonValleyTim
HudsonValleyTim

@SteveWo42357647   I would suggest that you are powerless against a government force no matter what level of weaponry you might own.  Beyond that, nobody is trying to limit your ability to own firearms in general, but it would be worth considering if there is anyone outside of the millitary or law enforcement who should be able to legally own any weapon that can fire over 8 rounds without reloading, or fires 50cal rounds.  Handguns are iffy to me as well.

My feeling is that there are 2 legitimate, constitutionally protected reasons to own a gun:

1.  Feeding your family - Shotguns and deer rifles are fine by me

2.  Protecting your family - Nothing says "Get out of my house" like a 12gauge shotgun.  

For those purposes, nothing with a barrel shorter than 24", or a capacity over 3 rounds is necessary.  All other guns are over the top, and should be strictly regulated.

SteveWo42357647
SteveWo42357647

One of the freedoms that have been taking away from me personally and you too (probably, depending on what state you live in) is the illegal search of private property.  This has been happening all over the country.  When ever you get pulled over a police officer has to have a reasonable suspicion to search your vehicle. However, they seldom do, it has become standard practice to ask to search your vehicle (all walks of life are being asked).  I travel about 40,000-60,000 miles a year and see this everyday on the road.  Last time this happened to me, I asked the officer what happens if I refuse, he said he would take me to jail for obstruting justice and search my car anyway, so I complied.  This is a direct infringement on the 4th amendment. 

It is also common practice to see road checks now for DWI and vehicle insurance inspections, again a direct infringement on our 4th amendment.  However, these checks are legal in many states (not all though) It is easy to say "it is for the best of our society" to bend/break these rights. But these are the very rights that are being widdled away everyday.  It is not drastic, very slight and very slow.

DonQuixotic
DonQuixotic

@WilliamWagg @DonQuixotic @SteveWo42357647 

The freedom to choose what you eat/drink?  What?

The right to protect our borders?  What??

The right to create a business?  What???

I'm not sure what laws you think took these rights away from you; I'd love to hear which ones.  You don't need to mention healthcare because SCOTUS ruled Obamacare was constitutional; you didn't lose any "rights".  I'm not sure what case you're trying to make on the illegality some people utilize to purchase firearms - that we shouldn't even try to enforce it then?  Certainly not that more people being armed would be the safest bet, because that has been proven time and again to be false. 

WilliamWagg
WilliamWagg

@DonQuixotic @SteveWo42357647 What rights? There are too many to list, freedom to choose what you eat/drink, the right to protect our boarders, the right to create a business(go look at what's happening to Uber by local governments) and those are just the obvious ones and I didn't mention healthcare.  How do you think that pyschopaths and criminals get guns? Do the go to a shop and buy one? No they get them illegally.  It's why "Gun free zones" don't stop people from getting killed in schools.  The only people that it affects are people that pay attention to the law

formerlyjames
formerlyjames

@SteveWo42357647 

 Who of the everyday Joes with their guns decides when to "protect themselves against the government"?  This common gun owner argument is more of one for anarchy than for protection from government.  It makes no sense on any level.

MrObvious
MrObvious

@SteveWo42357647 

Steve

Your fears are fabricated. As a liberal who doesn't own one single weapon I stand fully behind any sane persons legal right to own guns. Not assault weapons mind you. But firearms. And I want to make sure that the person who buys a gun is also not a criminal or mentally ill.

Beyond those 3 things (not criminal, not mentally ill and no assault type weapons) I don't care how many guns you own OR if you think it's vitally important for you. I or anyone I know have no desire in taking away any legally owned weapons.

As for your example about other nations; they're just as free as we are despite their gun laws. I don't know how you measure your freedom but it doesn't increase in any real measurable way the more weapons you have.

I am free to do all legal things here and in other free nations.

I'm not free to threaten, kill or otherwise harm others nor start revolutions anywhere. No amount of weapons will change that.

Maybe I'm just not so hysterical in measuring my freedom in direct relationship to how much harm I can do to others.

DonQuixotic
DonQuixotic

@SteveWo42357647 

Speaking of which, which of your freedoms have been lost to you in the past four years?  I'd like to know since you suggest that they're being "taken away from us everyday".

DonQuixotic
DonQuixotic

@SteveWo42357647 

Nobody ever suggest taking everyone's guns away from them, merely that individuals go through the proper screening and education when purchasing reasonable firearms (as in, no automatic weapons for public use).  I just would like to see guns kept out of the hands of psychopaths.

jmac
jmac

@SteveWo42357647 My husband owns an arsenal.  No one is trying to take away his guns.