Joe Klein’s Cover Story: How The Guns Won

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Photo-Illustration by Bartholomew Cooke for TIME

Legislators have tried to ban 100-round ammo-drum magazines similar to the one that was used in Aurora.

In this week’s TIME cover story (available to subscribers here), political columnist Joe Klein outlines the serious conversations we should be having in the wake of the tragic theater shooting in Aurora, Colo. Amid the hand-wringing over policy and politics, Joe’s piece is a reminder that the question is not whether Americans can bear arms, but rather which arms we should have the right to bear:

The right to bear arms is famously enshrined in the U.S. Constitution. It is also enshrined in the American character, inherent in the chesty, libertarian Scots-Irish sensibility that populated the Appalachian backwoods and spread south and west from there. But no right is absolute. No American has the right to own a stealth bomber or a nuclear weapon. Armor-piercing bullets are forbidden. The question is where you draw a reasonable bright line.

In the early 1990s, after an astonishing rise in violent crime that started in the 1960s and peaked following drug-related gang violence during the 1980s, there seemed to be a critical mass for tighter gun laws.

Joe recounts how President Bill Clinton harnessed that sentiment by passing a landmark crime bill in 1994, and how our views have changed since then. The political will for stricter laws has diminished over the past two decades, as has violent crime. Yet mass shootings, which now plague the U.S. at an average rate of more than 18 per year, remain a terrible constant. As President Obama said in the wake of the Tucson massacre last year, the country should not remain passive in the face of such violence. But how should we react?

You can read a teaser of Joe’s take here. Let us know if we can send you a copy.

129 comments
frankblank
frankblank

We have allowed the greedy, the paranoid and the profoundly stupid to control policy on this.  They haven't got a single argument that will hold up to even a mildly logical refutation, and their constitutional claims simply ignore some of the words in the amendment.  They're scared, they're stupid, they allow themselves to be used by politicians who despise them, and they're responsible, in the sense of negligent homicide, for thousands of unnecessary deaths every year.  And I say this as someone who has owned a gun for 45 years. 

Aztec77
Aztec77

I fail to understand the argument that gun restriction will end freedom.  The citizens of Canada, Great Britain, Belgium, France, etc., all celebrate freedom with gun restrictions. 

Michael Frazier
Michael Frazier

 Last time I checked, grocery stores like Walmart do sell guns.

Michael Frazier
Michael Frazier

 I am assuming that you realize that an "assault rifle" would be a fully automatic(or burst fire) rifle, and that they are not for civilian purchase unless you find a private seller to sell you one for the cost of your first two children. James Holmes did not have an assault rifle.

Thomas Mulligan
Thomas Mulligan

At one point Klein quotes George Will.  And he goes on to say "Will has a point.  Holmes had no record of violence.  It was impossible to pick him up with existing background checks.  Even if there were an assault-weapons ban, he might have found a way to buy his weapon and perhaps even his 6,000 rounds of ammunition on the black market.  There is no law that will prevent every crime."

You see, that's it, right there.  Only the sentence should read "There is no law that will prevent ANY crime".  Anyone that is committed to committing some sort of crime, there is NOTHING that ANY law will do to stop the commission of that crime.  The law just simply codifies behavior and sets penalties for those that do not behave according to the limits of the law.

So, the gun didn't win the arguement.  The gun control advocates just may be realizing the futility of the fight.  Yes, it is appalling that anyone should die as a result of gunfire, but what can we do?  We can't legislate against jerks getting into office, but yet we have one at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave., but we all do have the right to vote.  You don't hear anyone looking to repeal the right to vote, now do you?  And to follow Joe Klein's logic of the question is not whether Americans can bear arms, but rather which arms we should have the right to bear, if we were to extend that to voting, then what are we to do, only allow the people to vote on local and state representatives, but when it comes to presidents, senators and congressmen, well, it's just too important to let the people decide that.  We'll just let those in office continue to serve and any replacements are appointed by the president?  I don't think so....

Chuck Schumer and all you gun control advocates...I think it's time you give it up...finally.  It may be the smartest thing you every have done.

Benja Sophon Sariwatta
Benja Sophon Sariwatta

Make no mistakes Liberals, if the government tries to take the guns, there will be civil war.  We simply will not stand for it. This war will not be in some foreign land you don't care about. It will be in your front yard, around your house and family, and you will get to experience it first hand up close and personal.  You make up your mind how you want it but we will not be disarmed. It is a hell of a lot easier for you to move to your socialist gun free utopia like Australia, South Africa, England, etc... than it is for us to move to a pro gun country.

ProwdLiberal
ProwdLiberal

@facebook-100001930329481:disqus 

"Oh please, the founding fathers wanted to end slavery since the get go.  Go read the draft of the Declaration of Independence.........Tell me more about the financial situation in Europe. Tell me about the austerity riots. Tell me how collectivism have turned out in other countries. And tell me why you aren't there right now"

First of all you have not understood the fundamental point I am making. Most people think the founding fathers are demi-gods and we need to accept everything that they have done without questioning including the constitution. As I mentioned they are just like you and me and they have done some good things and some bad things. One of the worst things they have done is the 2nd amendment. They did not have the vision of understanding the affect of 100s of millions of guns on a society. They did not envision that there could be 20,000 to 30,000 people dying due to guns in a civilized society. They were tunnel visioned in thinking that the guns are meant for stopping authoritarian and dictatorial governments from running the country. But if you see in US history never was any attempt by any government or military to impose an authoritarian rule on the people in its 200+ years of history. So their fears were no different than the fear of many in the 50s and 60s about communist take over of the world. It is just paranoia bordering in schizophrenia.  

About the financial situation in Europe, with all its great capitalism and un-interrupted development for 200+ years, doesn't US have 15+ trillion $$$ debt. If you divide the $15 trillion debt among the US states each would be have $300 billion debt. Greece debt is $430 billion. In addition all the European countries in debt problems have debt/GDP ratio is around 80% to 100%. For US it is 90%. So US is in the same boat. So you need to stop listening to the right-wing redneck radio that brain washes the American cowboys incessantly day in day out and the Faux TV and NRA. They are no different than cults like Scientology or Taliban's madrasa schools in which kids are brain washed to kill the infidels. You are brain washed to not question the great capitalism of US and its 2nd Amendment.  

ProwdLiberal
ProwdLiberal

@facebook-100001930329481:disqus 

 "and you are driven back to your socialist motherland in europe by gun toting red necks so you can worship government at your leisure."

According to the right-wing rednecks everyone other than US is socialists including Canada, Germany, Japan etc. 

You can worship the cuntservative clowns and right-wing redtard cowboys who love guns in a 21st century civilized world. You are the true American Taliban. Live in dark ages. The European and Canadian Socialists are hundered times better than you.

TheTruthExistsInLogic
TheTruthExistsInLogic

The Aurora killer could have just ran over the crowd of people leaving

the movie.... but that wouldn't have made him famous just a "bad driver." (They may have even called it involuntary vehicular manslaughter and let him get away with it)

GUNS are not the problem. Unstable / sick people will ALWAYS find ways to cause harm.

TheTruthExistsInLogic
TheTruthExistsInLogic

If the Aurora shooter was looking to cause carnage he would have waited until the movie was over and driven his car into the crowd of people leaving the movie.

GUNS are not the problem...

Benja Sophon Sariwatta
Benja Sophon Sariwatta

 The 2nd amendment is not about sports.  The second amendment is there

for the people to overthrow the governmetn if the government becomes

tyrannical like Hitler's Germany, Mussolini's Italy,  Stalinist Russia,

Maoist China or Polpot's Cambodia.  Therefore the weapons in public

hands should at least match those in the military.  Just because people

die, it doesn't mean you should ban it.  During the birth of the US

Constitutional, people were killing each other with muskets as well.  If

the colonist were stripped of their arms, we would never have had a

revolution and will be just be the same country as Canada.   FYI in case

people forgot, the colonist didn't fight a foreign government, they

fought their own government. The colonist were all British subjects

before the Declaration of Independence.  Read more: http://lightbox.time.com/2012/...

James
James

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James
James

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ececca
ececca

I would like to know why someone needs an assault rifle? 

It seems to me that it is as useful as a fallout shelter. 

Do they have one of those as well?

ProwdLiberal
ProwdLiberal

The article title should be "

How The Guns Won and BRAINS lost"

Benja Sophon Sariwatta
Benja Sophon Sariwatta

I do understand. The founders are not demi-gods, just well read men. They have studied history and found tyranny takes over when the people cannot protect themselves. The founders made the correct decision on the 2nd amendment because they see many european monarchs oppress their people. Please look at these quotes from the founders.

"We established however some, although not all its [self-government] important principles . The constitutions of most of our States assert, that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves, in all cases to which they think themselves competent, (as in electing their functionaries executive and legislative, and deciding by a jury of themselves, in all judiciary cases in which any fact is involved,) or they may act by representatives, freely and equally chosen; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed;"

---Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824. Memorial Edition 16:45, Lipscomb and Bergh, editors.

"To suppose arms in the hands of citizens, to be used at individual discretion, except in private self-defense, or by partial orders of towns, countries or districts of a state, is to demolish every constitution, and lay the laws prostrate, so that liberty can be enjoyed by no man; it is a dissolution of the government. The fundamental law of the militia is, that it be created, directed and commanded by the laws, and ever for the support of the laws."

---John Adams, A Defence of the Constitutions of the United States 475 (1787-1788)

"And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the Press, or the rights of Conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms; …"

Samuel Adams

quoted in the Philadelphia Independent Gazetteer, August 20, 1789, "Propositions submitted to the Convention of this State"

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

---Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759.

"what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? let them take arms. the remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon amp; pacify them. what signify a few lives lost in a century or two? the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots amp; tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/je...

Benja Sophon Sariwatta
Benja Sophon Sariwatta

  Your argument that it hasn't happened in 200 years is mute.  We are all human beings so if it happened in history elsewhere, it can happen here and the founding fathers recognized that.  That is unless you believe Americans are different from human beings elsewhere in the world.  Perhaps Americans are so much better so it can never happen.  Hit1er was a democratically elected leader who won by popular vote.  The german people were smart advance western people like the people in the USA.  Why would they fall for his rhetoric?  The fact that it happened to smart people in a western society is testimony that it can happen here.  YOu should read a book by Naomi Wolfe comparing the parallels to the build up to Nazi Germany and what is currently happening in the USA after the attack.

Benja Sophon Sariwatta
Benja Sophon Sariwatta

 Hitler was a democratically elected leader who won by popular vote.  The german people were smart advance western people like the people in the USA.  Why would they fall for his rhetoric?  The fact that it happened to smart people in a western society is testimony that it can happen here.  YOu should read a book by Naomi Wolfe comparing the parallels to the build up to Nazi Germany and what is currently happening in the USA after the attack.

Benja Sophon Sariwatta
Benja Sophon Sariwatta

Your argument that it hasn't happened in 200 years is mute. We are all human beings so if it happened in history elsewhere, it can happen here and the founding fathers recognized that. That is unless you believe US Americans are different from human beings elsewhere in the world. Perhaps you believe US Americans are so much better than the rest of the people in this world so it can never happen here in the good ol USA. Hit1er was a democratically elected leader who won by popular vote. The german people were smart advance western people like the people in the USA. Heck, their science and engineering was the best in the world. Why would they fall for his rhetoric? The fact that it happened to smart people in a western society is testimony that it can happen here. You should read a book by Naomi Wolfe showing parallels of the build up to Naz1 Germany and what is currently happening in the USA after the september 11 attack.

"To model our political system upon speculations of lasting tranquility, is to calculate on the weaker springs of the human character."

---Alexander Hamilton

Benja Sophon Sariwatta
Benja Sophon Sariwatta

 I do understand.  The founders are not demi-gods, just well read men.  They have studied history and found tyranny takes over when the people cannot protect themselves.  The founders made the correct decision on the 2nd amendment because they see many european monarchs oppress their people.  They envision the opression governments conducts to gain power based on what happened in Europe.  They know of the results of an invading force as well as domenstic tyrannies.  Your argument that it hasn't happened in 200 years is mute.  We are all human beings so if it happened in history elsewhere, it can happen here and the founding fathers recognized that.  That is unless you believe Americans are different from human beings elsewhere in the world.  Perhaps Americans are so much better so it can never happen.  Hitler was a democratically elected leader who won by popular vote.  The german people were smart advance western people like the people in the USA.  Why would they fall for his rhetoric?  The fact that it happened to smart peopel in a western society is testimony that it can happen here.  YOu should read a book by Naomi Wolfe comparing the parallels to the build up to Nazi Germany and what is currently happening in the USA after the attack.

Benja Sophon Sariwatta
Benja Sophon Sariwatta

 I do understand.  The founders are not demi-gods, just well read men.  They have studied history and found tyranny takes over when the people cannot protect themselves.  The founders made the correct decision on the 2nd amendment because they see many european monarchs oppress their people.  They envision the massacres governments do to people for power based on what happened in Europe.  They know of the results of an invading force as well as domenstic tyrannies.  Your argument that it hasn't happened in 200 years is mute.  We are all human beings so if it happened in history elsewhere, it can happen here and the founding fathers recognized that.  That is unless you believe Americans are different from human beings elsewhere in the world.  Perhaps Americans are so much better so it can never happen.  Hitler was a democratically elected leader who won by popular vote.  The german people were smart advance western people like the people in the USA.  Why would they fall for his rhetoric?  The fact that it happened to smart peopel in a western society is testimony that it can happen here.  YOu should read a book by Naomi Wolfe comparing the parallels to the build up to Nazi Germany and what is currently happening in the USA after the attack.

Benja Sophon Sariwatta
Benja Sophon Sariwatta

 Another example of tyranny is the civil war where Abraham Lincoln refused to let the south secede and lied to the people saying the war was about slavery even though he confessed to Horace Greeley that the war was not about the slaves but about preserving the union.  And compare that to the other european colonies and how they ended slavery without violence, including England itslef.  700,000 brothers killed each other.  He trampled the 10th amendment.  How about during world war 2 when the Japanese were put in concentration camps loosing their business and honor.  The gun control bill of the 60s by senator Dodd was borrowed from the Nazi gun control laws they used to disarm the German people before carting them off to concentration camps.  Do I need to get into the Eugenics policy of the USA in the 1920s and adopted by Hitler for his Eugenics model (eugenicsarchive.org)?  People were being sterilized all the way up until 1974.  They just got their settlement last year from the state of North Carolina.

Benja Sophon Sariwatta
Benja Sophon Sariwatta

You are wrong about no attempt was made to impose tyranny.  Google the business plot then google the creature from Jeckyll island about bankers controlling government through finance.  There is the Eisenhower farewell address warning of the undue influence of the military industrial complex.  And in the past few years, the bill of rights have been eroded away out of the terrorist scare.  And with the police becoming federalized paramilitary forces receiving armored vechicles from the government, surveilling the people, warrantless wiretapping, Patriot Act, passing NDAA allowing indefinite detention and torture of anyone deemed a terrorist without disclosing which criteria they use to label a terrorist ( this whistle blower was labeled domestic terrorist and her home raided http://topprioritymovie.com/ ), the military violating posse comitatus and doing civilian work, and the highest incarceration rate in the world, why should we not think we are under tyranny.  Google rex84 or readiness exercise 84 and see what that is all about.  Now operation northwoods as reported by abc news.  http://abcnews.go.com/US/Story...

Benja Sophon Sariwatta
Benja Sophon Sariwatta

I do understand. The founders are not demi-gods, just well read men. They have studied history and found tyranny takes over when the people cannot protect themselves. The founders made the correct decision on the 2nd amendment because they see many european monarchs oppress their people. They envision the massacres governments do to people for power based on what happened in Europe. They know of the results of an invading force as well as domenstic tyrannies. Your argument that it hasn't happened in 200 years is mute. We are all human beings so if it happened in history elsewhere, it can happen here and the founding fathers recognized that. That is unless you believe Americans are different from human beings elsewhere in the world. Perhaps Americans are so much better so it can never happen. Hitler was a democratically elected leader who won by popular vote. The german people were smart advance western people like the people in the USA. Why would they fall for his rhetoric? The fact that it happened to smart peopel in a western society is testimony that it can happen here. YOu should read a book by Naomi Wolfe comparing the parallels to the build up to Nazi Germany and what is currently happening in the USA after 9/11.

You are wrong about no attempt was made to impose tyranny. Google the business plot then google the creature from Jeckyll island about bankers controlling government through finance. There is the Eisenhower farewell address warning of the undue influence of the military industrial complex. And in the past few years, the bill of rights have been eroded away out of the terrorist scare. And with the police becoming federalized paramilitary forces receiving armored vechicles from the government, surveilling the people, warrantless wiretapping, Patriot Act, passing NDAA allowing indefinite detention and torture of anyone deemed a terrorist without disclosing which criteria they use to label a terrorist ( this whistle blower was labeled domestic terrorist and her home raided http://topprioritymovie.com/), the military violating posse comitatus and doing civilian work, and the highest incarceration rate in the world. Google rex84 or readiness exercise 84 and see what that is all about. Now operation northwoods as reported by abc news. http://abcnews.go.com/US/Story...

Another example of tyranny is the civil war where Abraham Lincoln refused to let the south secede and lied to the people saying the war was about slavery even though he confessed to Horace Greeley that the war was not about the slaves but about preserving the union. And compare that to the other european colonies and how they ended slavery without violence, including England itslef. 700,000 brothers killed each other. He trampled the 10th amendment. Need I mention sherman's march? How about during world war 2 when the Japanese were put in concentration camps loosing their business and honor. The gun control bill of the 60s by senator Dodd was borrowed from the Nazi gun control laws they used to disarm the German people before carting them off to concentration camps. Do I need to get into the Eugenics policy of the USA in the 1920s and adopted by Hitler for his Eugenics model (eugenicsarchive.org)? People were being sterilized all the way up until 1974. They just got their settlement last year from the state of North Carolina.

In regards to the 15 trillion debt, that is just the number they give out. Look at this article and see the real debt. http://www.news.com.au/busines...

My whole point on europe is the socialist policy of those countries and how it failed.

Benja Sophon Sariwatta
Benja Sophon Sariwatta

 I do understand.  The founders are not demi-gods, just well read men.  They have studied history and found tyranny takes over when the people cannot protect themselves.  The founders made the correct decision on the 2nd amendment because they see many european monarchs oppress their people.  They envision the massacres governments do to people for power based on what happened in Europe.  They know of the results of an invading force as well as domenstic tyrannies.  Your argument that it hasn't happened in 200 years is mute.  We are all human beings so if it happened in history elsewhere, it can happen here and the founding fathers recognized that.  That is unless you believe Americans are different from human beings elsewhere in the world.  Perhaps Americans are so much better so it can never happen.  Hitler was a democratically elected leader who won by popular vote.  The german people were smart advance western people like the people in the USA.  Why would they fall for his rhetoric?  The fact that it happened to smart peopel in a western society is testimony that it can happen here.  YOu should read a book by Naomi Wolfe comparing the parallels to the build up to Nazi Germany and what is currently happening in the USA after 9/11.

You are wrong about no attempt was made to impose tyranny.  Google the business plot then google the creature from Jeckyll island about bankers controlling government through finance.  There is the Eisenhower farewell address warning of the undue influence of the military industrial complex.  And in the past few years, the bill of rights have been eroded away out of the terrorist scare.  And with the police becoming federalized paramilitary forces receiving armored vechicles from the government, surveilling the people, warrantless wiretapping, Patriot Act, passing NDAA allowing indefinite detention and torture of anyone deemed a terrorist without disclosing which criteria they use to label a terrorist ( this whistle blower was labeled domestic terrorist and her home raided http://topprioritymovie.com/), the military violating posse comitatus and doing civilian work, and the highest incarceration rate in the world.  Google rex84 or readiness exercise 84 and see what that is all about.  Now operation northwoods as reported by abc news.  http://abcnews.go.com/US/Story...

Another example of tyranny is the civil war where Abraham Lincoln refused to let the south secede and lied to the people saying the war was about slavery even though he confessed to Horace Greeley that the war was not about the slaves but about preserving the union.  And compare that to the other european colonies and how they ended slavery without violence, including England itslef.  700,000 brothers killed each other.  He trampled the 10th amendment.  Need I mention sherman's march?  How about during world war 2 when the Japanese were put in concentration camps loosing their business and honor.  The gun control bill of the 60s by senator Dodd was borrowed from the Nazi gun control laws they used to disarm the German people before carting them off to concentration camps.  Do I need to get into the Eugenics policy of the USA in the 1920s and adopted by Hitler for his Eugenics model (eugenicsarchive.org)?  People were being sterilized all the way up until 1974.  They just got their settlement last year from the state of North Carolina.

In regards to the 15 trillion debt, that is just the number they give out.  Look at this article and see the real debt.  http://www.news.com.au/busines...

My whole point on europe is the socialist policy of those countries and how it failed.

Benja Sophon Sariwatta
Benja Sophon Sariwatta

 I do understand.  The founders are not demi-gods, just well read men.  They have studied history and found tyranny takes over when the people cannot protect themselves.  The founders made the correct decision on the 2nd amendment because they see many european monarchs oppress their people.  They envision the massacres governments do to people for power based on what happened in Europe.  They know of the results of an invading force as well as domenstic tyrannies.  Your argument that it hasn't happened in 200 years is mute.  We are all human beings so if it happened in history elsewhere, it can happen here and the founding fathers recognized that.  That is unless you believe Americans are different from human beings elsewhere in the world.  Perhaps Americans are so much better so it can never happen.  Hitler was a democratically elected leader who won by popular vote.  The german people were smart advance western people like the people in the USA.  Why would they fall for his rhetoric?  The fact that it happened to smart peopel in a western society is testimony that it can happen here.  YOu should read a book by Naomi Wolfe comparing the parallels to the build up to Nazi Germany and what is currently happening in the USA after 9/11.

Benja Sophon Sariwatta
Benja Sophon Sariwatta

 I do understand.  The founders are not demi-gods, just well read men.  They have studied history and found tyranny takes over when the people cannot protect themselves.  The founders made the correct decision on the 2nd amendment because they see many european monarchs oppress their people.  They envision the massacres governments do to people for power based on what happened in Europe.  They know of the results of an invading force as well as domenstic tyrannies.  Your argument that it hasn't happened in 200 years is mute.  We are all human beings so if it happened in history elsewhere, it can happen here and the founding fathers recognized that.  That is unless you believe Americans are different from human beings elsewhere in the world.  Perhaps Americans are so much better so it can never happen.  Hitler was a democratically elected leader who won by popular vote.  The german people were smart advance western people like the people in the USA.  Why would they fall for his rhetoric?  The fact that it happened to smart peopel in a western society is testimony that it can happen here.  YOu should read a book by Naomi Wolfe comparing the parallels to the build up to Nazi Germany and what is currently happening in the USA after 9/11.

You are wrong about no attempt was made to impose tyranny.  Google the business plot then google the creature from Jeckyll island about bankers controlling government through finance.  There is the Eisenhower farewell address warning of the undue influence of the military industrial complex.  And in the past few years, the bill of rights have been eroded away out of the terrorist scare.  And with the police becoming federalized paramilitary forces receiving armored vechicles from the government, surveilling the people, warrantless wiretapping, Patriot Act, passing NDAA allowing indefinite detention and torture of anyone deemed a terrorist without disclosing which criteria they use to label a terrorist ( this whistle blower was labeled domestic terrorist and her home raided http://topprioritymovie.com/), the military violating posse comitatus and doing civilian work, and the highest incarceration rate in the world.  Google rex84 or readiness exercise 84 and see what that is all about.  Now operation northwoods as reported by abc news.  http://abcnews.go.com/US/Story...

Another example of tyranny is the civil war where Abraham Lincoln refused to let the south secede and lied to the people saying the war was about slavery even though he confessed to Horace Greeley that the war was not about the slaves but about preserving the union.  And compare that to the other european colonies and how they ended slavery without violence, including England itslef.  700,000 brothers killed each other.  He trampled the 10th amendment.  Need I mention sherman's march?  How about during world war 2 when the Japanese were put in concentration camps loosing their business and honor.  The gun control bill of the 60s by senator Dodd was borrowed from the Nazi gun control laws they used to disarm the German people before carting them off to concentration camps.  Do I need to get into the Eugenics policy of the USA in the 1920s and adopted by Hitler for his Eugenics model (eugenicsarchive.org)?  People were being sterilized all the way up until 1974.  They just got their settlement last year from the state of North Carolina.

In regards to the 15 trillion debt, that is just the number they give out.  Look at this article and see the real debt.  http://www.news.com.au/busines...

My whole point on europe is the socialist policy of those countries and how it failed.

Benja Sophon Sariwatta
Benja Sophon Sariwatta

 I do understand.  The founders are not demi-gods, just well read men.  They have studied history and found tyranny takes over when the people cannot protect themselves.  The founders made the correct decision on the 2nd amendment because they see many european monarchs oppress their people.  They envision the massacres governments do to people for power based on what happened in Europe.  They know of the results of an invading force as well as domenstic tyrannies.  Your argument that it hasn't happened in 200 years is mute.  We are all human beings so if it happened in history elsewhere, it can happen here and the founding fathers recognized that.  That is unless you believe Americans are different from human beings elsewhere in the world.  Perhaps Americans are so much better so it can never happen.  Hitler was a democratically elected leader who won by popular vote.  The german people were smart advance western people like the people in the USA.  Why would they fall for his rhetoric?  The fact that it happened to smart peopel in a western society is testimony that it can happen here.  YOu should read a book by Naomi Wolfe comparing the parallels to the build up to Nazi Germany and what is currently happening in the USA after 9/11.

You are wrong about no attempt was made to impose tyranny.  Google the business plot then google the creature from Jeckyll island about bankers controlling government through finance.  There is the Eisenhower farewell address warning of the undue influence of the military industrial complex.  And in the past few years, the bill of rights have been eroded away out of the terrorist scare.  And with the police becoming federalized paramilitary forces receiving armored vechicles from the government, surveilling the people, warrantless wiretapping, Patriot Act, passing NDAA allowing indefinite detention and torture of anyone deemed a terrorist without disclosing which criteria they use to label a terrorist ( this whistle blower was labeled domestic terrorist and her home raided http://topprioritymovie.com/), the military violating posse comitatus and doing civilian work, and the highest incarceration rate in the world.  Google rex84 or readiness exercise 84 and see what that is all about.  Now operation northwoods as reported by abc news.  http://abcnews.go.com/US/Story...

Another example of tyranny is the civil war where Abraham Lincoln refused to let the south secede and lied to the people saying the war was about slavery even though he confessed to Horace Greeley that the war was not about the slaves but about preserving the union.  And compare that to the other european colonies and how they ended slavery without violence, including England itslef.  700,000 brothers killed each other.  He trampled the 10th amendment.  Need I mention sherman's march?  How about during world war 2 when the Japanese were put in concentration camps loosing their business and honor.  The gun control bill of the 60s by senator Dodd was borrowed from the Nazi gun control laws they used to disarm the German people before carting them off to concentration camps.  Do I need to get into the Eugenics policy of the USA in the 1920s and adopted by Hitler for his Eugenics model (eugenicsarchive.org)?  People were being sterilized all the way up until 1974.  They just got their settlement last year from the state of North Carolina.

In regards to the 15 trillion debt, that is just the number they give out.  Look at this article and see the real debt.  http://www.news.com.au/busines...

My whole point on europe is the socialist policy of those countries and how it failed.

Benja Sophon Sariwatta
Benja Sophon Sariwatta

I do understand.  The founders are not demi-gods, just well read men.  They have studied history and found tyranny takes over when the people cannot protect themselves.  The founders made the correct decision on the 2nd amendment because they see many european monarchs oppress their people.  They envision the massacres governments do to people for power based on what happened in Europe.  They know of the results of an invading force as well as domenstic tyrannies.  Your argument that it hasn't happened in 200 years is mute.  We are all human beings so if it happened in history elsewhere, it can happen here and the founding fathers recognized that.  That is unless you believe Americans are different from human beings elsewhere in the world.  Perhaps Americans are so much better so it can never happen.  Hitler was a democratically elected leader who won by popular vote.  The german people were smart advance western people like the people in the USA.  Why would they fall for his rhetoric?  The fact that it happened to smart peopel in a western society is testimony that it can happen here.  YOu should read a book by Naomi Wolfe comparing the parallels to the build up to Nazi Germany and what is currently happening in the USA after 9/11.

You are wrong about no attempt was made to impose tyranny.  Google the business plot then google the creature from Jeckyll island about bankers controlling government through finance.  There is the Eisenhower farewell address warning of the undue influence of the military industrial complex.  And in the past few years, the bill of rights have been eroded away out of the terrorist scare.  And with the police becoming federalized paramilitary forces receiving armored vechicles from the government, surveilling the people, warrantless wiretapping, Patriot Act, passing NDAA allowing indefinite detention and torture of anyone deemed a terrorist without disclosing which criteria they use to label a terrorist ( this whistle blower was labeled domestic terrorist and her home raided http://topprioritymovie.com/), the military violating posse comitatus and doing civilian work, and the highest incarceration rate in the world.  Google rex84 or readiness exercise 84 and see what that is all about.  Now operation northwoods as reported by abc news.  http://abcnews.go.com/US/Story...

Another example of tyranny is the civil war where Abraham Lincoln refused to let the south secede and lied to the people saying the war was about slavery even though he confessed to Horace Greeley that the war was not about the slaves but about preserving the union.  And compare that to the other european colonies and how they ended slavery without violence, including England itslef.  700,000 brothers killed each other.  He trampled the 10th amendment.  Need I mention sherman's march?  How about during world war 2 when the Japanese were put in concentration camps loosing their business and honor.  The gun control bill of the 60s by senator Dodd was borrowed from the Nazi gun control laws they used to disarm the German people before carting them off to concentration camps.  Do I need to get into the Eugenics policy of the USA in the 1920s and adopted by Hitler for his Eugenics model (eugenicsarchive.org)?  People were being sterilized all the way up until 1974.  They just got their settlement last year from the state of North Carolina.

In regards to the 15 trillion debt, that is just the number they give out.  Look at this article and see the real debt.  http://www.news.com.au/busines...

My whole point on europe is the socialist policy of those countries and how it failed.

Benja Sophon Sariwatta
Benja Sophon Sariwatta

hahaha, the problem is the USA have turned socialist thanks to the libera's adoption of marxist philosophies.  The communist/socialist have infiltrated ever aspect of american life.  The venona files declassified in the 90s have proven we have been infiltrated.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

And that dark age you are referring to is the constitution.  where the rights are granted by nature and nature's god, and not some king, tyrant, government, or libtards infiltrating government to further agenda.

pc1397
pc1397

PEOPLE (with guns) are!

TheTruthExistsInLogic
TheTruthExistsInLogic

Why does someone NEED a car that goes faster than 75 mph? a television larger than 40 inches? a super-size soda? an encrypted computer hard disk?  

What really matters here is we SHOULD have the RIGHT / ABILITY to own what we want.

I own multiple "assault rifles" for recreational target shooting... does that make me bad person?

I am MUCH more likely to kill someone via unintentional food poisoning at a potluck than with my firearm hobby... should only professional cooks be allowed to make food for "non-personal consumption"?

Benja Sophon Sariwatta
Benja Sophon Sariwatta

 How can you call it using brains when you go off emotions and not use history as a guide?

Benja Sophon Sariwatta
Benja Sophon Sariwatta

Another example of tyranny is the war for southern independence where Abraham Lincoln refused to let the south secede and lied to the people saying the war was about s1avery even though he confessed to Horace Greeley that the war was not about the s1aves but about preserving the union.  And compare that to the other european colonies and how they ended slavery without violence, including England itslef.  700,000 brothers killed each other in the war of southern independence.  Abraham Lincoln trampled the 10th amendment.  The south was also in danger from the English who wanted the nation to split so it becomes weaker and ripe for an invasion. How about during world war 2 when the Japanese were put in concentration camps loosing their business and honor.  The gun control bill of the 60s by senator Dodd was borrowed from the Naz1 gun control laws they used to disarm the German people before carting them off to concentration camps.  Do I need to get into the Eugenics policy of the USA in the 1920s and adopted by Hitler for his Eugenics model (eugenicsarchive.org)?  People were being sterilized all the way up until 1974.  They just got their settlement last year from the state of North Carolina.

http://www.wral.com/news/state...

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12...

Benja Sophon Sariwatta
Benja Sophon Sariwatta

 Another example of tyranny is the civil war where Abraham Lincoln refused to let the south secede and lied to the people saying the war was about slavery even though he confessed to Horace Greeley that the war was not about the slaves but about preserving the union.  And compare that to the other european colonies and how they ended slavery without violence, including England itslef.  700,000 brothers killed each other.  He trampled the 10th amendment.  How about during world war 2 when the Japanese were put in concentration camps loosing their business and honor.  The gun control bill of the 60s by senator Dodd was borrowed from the Nazi gun control laws they used to disarm the German people before carting them off to concentration camps.  Do I need to get into the Eugenics policy of the USA in the 1920s and adopted by Hitler for his Eugenics model (eugenicsarchive.org)?  People were being sterilized all the way up until 1974.  They just got their settlement last year from the state of North Carolina.

ProwdLiberal
ProwdLiberal

You are living in the 1950s and so do Taliban in the 7th century.

Rights granted by nature and nature's God??? LOL! BWL!

The founding fathers were just like you and me. The founding fathers still believed in slavery and did not abolish slavery for nearly another 100 years from 1776. Then slavery was abolished in and no civil rights until another 100 years. So see how backward the founding fathers and others that you hold in high esteem failed miserably. It only shows that they are just like you and me and fallible. So all this BS about constitution and granted rights by nature and nature's God is your delusions of grandeur attributed to constitution and the founding fathers just like Hitler attributed similar superiority to the grandeur of  Aryan race. Get educated and come into the 21st century unlike the Taliban.

TheTruthExistsInLogic
TheTruthExistsInLogic

People with (martial arts training) (molotov cocktails) (knives) (scissors) (hammers) (ice picks) (canes) (saws) (c0rrosive drain cleaners) (clubs) (cars) (dogs) (baseball bats) (rope) (plastic bags) are the problem...

I agree that PEOPLE are the problem but limiting guns is not going to stop someone that is determined to cause harm. The only thing that can prevent mass shootings is opposing force (armed citizens... not unarmed targets). Not even a psychopath would attempt a mass shootings at a gun show....

ProwdLiberal
ProwdLiberal

History as what guide?

Why don't you do some deep research into countries without GUNS like  north and western Europe, Asia etc and see how FEW gun related deaths and compare them with 20,000 to 30,000 gun related deaths EVERY YEAR!.

The reason I said brains lost is, most American conservatives/right-wing do not use their brains to look at data from these countries but are driven by emotions about the 2nd amendment. Actually they know about it but they don't want to admit it because they are driven by their emotional connection to the 2nd amendment which they value more than the ten commandments.

Benja Sophon Sariwatta
Benja Sophon Sariwatta

Oh please, the founding fathers wanted to end slavery since the get go.  Go read the draft of the Declaration of Independence.  It was the Carolinas and Georgia that refused to sign the Declaration of Independence if that clause outlawing slavery remained there so they had to compromise.  So if you want to blame something, blame the carolinians and georgia. http://www.britannica.com/EBch... Even in the northwest ordinance, Thomas Jefferson wanted all newly formed states in the west to be slave free states.   You take one issue and say because of one issue, everything else they say is bad.  That's rather short sighted and tunnel vision.  And you think banning weapons is such a trendy thing? It has been done for 1,000s of years in world history and that is so the tyrants can effectly suppress and control the people. And your socialist/marxist philosophy you are embracing is such a new 21st century concept? Its from the 1800s. Some say before that since both Greece and Rome had some socialism during the decline of their empires. How well is the socialism working today? Tell me more about the financial situation in Europe. Tell me about the austerity riots. Tell me how collectivism have turned out in other countries. And tell me why you aren't there right now.

TheTruthExistsInLogic
TheTruthExistsInLogic

 pc1397 -There is NO way to tell what people

that desire to kill will do. You seem to think that if you remove all

guns (impossible to do) all the violence will go away.  The main result

of restricting guns will be to drive them to the illegal / black market

(just like drugs).

With regards to the murder / suicide... if Jeffrey was determined to kill his wife and mother do you really think that NOT having a gun would have stopped him? He probably could have killed his 85 year old mother by pushing her down a flight of stairs. Perhaps he could have offered to take them both out to eat and just ran the car off a bridge. Once again... once again the gun didn't kill them, he did.

And in WI, you are right this person also "reached for a gun." If that gun wouldn't have been there perhaps he would have made a bomb and blown the place up (and 100 people could have died). Maybe the Sikh temple shooter used a gun because he/she knew it would get media attention... its all speculation.

pc1397
pc1397

And today, it's a shooting at a Sikh temple in Wisconsin with at least 6 dead. And again, for whatever wacky reason the the perpetrator reached for a gun. Not a knife, not drain cleaner, not a car. A gun. Kind of a trend, wouldn't you say?

pc1397
pc1397

Interesting tidbit, from today's Boston.com website (this is what I was referring to in my last post):

The New Hampshire attorney general's office says 50-year-old Jeffrey Kaznecki (KAZ-neck-ee) fatally shot his 51-year-old wife, Barbara, and his 85-year-old mother, Shirley Leary, on Tuesday before turning the gun on himself at their Salem home. All three died of gunshot wounds to the head.Assistant Attorney General Peter Hinckley told the Eagle-Tribune (http://bit.ly/T4r3WC) if a motive is determined, it might take investigators a while to get there.Barbara Kaznecki's Facebook page said she and Jeffrey were married for 30 years. On July 25, she shared a Facebook petition about the right to keep and bear arms. The last sentence reads: "Guns don't kill people, people kill people."

pc1397
pc1397

Just an update- since my last response there has been one of those pesky murder/suicides I was mentioning, last night actually, about 2 miles from my home. Some guy shot and killed his wife, then his mother-in-law (or mother, still not clear), then himself. Decided to go with a gun for some reason. A gun. They're so convenient, aren't they? It's almost like they were designed to kill.

pc1397
pc1397

That's because they're browsing the booths for weapons. But seriously, folks, clearly limiting guns will not stop someone determined to cause harm. That is, someone who has time to reconsider but refuses to do so. What it will stop, or at least  limit, are homicides resulting from a hot temper, the heat of the moment, a drunken rage, drug-induced mania etc etc etc. Our prisons are full of people wishing they didn't have access to a weapon when they were at their least rational. You can also throw in the majority of murder/suicides we hear about.

Benja Sophon Sariwatta
Benja Sophon Sariwatta

You are mixing a culture problem with gun possession.  Switzerland has guns.  Its mandatory that every head of household has a gun and where is the disasterous crime rate in switzerland?  their culture lowers crime, not gun possession.  What I see is liberal knee jerk reactions to a problem that is cultural, not a problem with an object.  You can have all the guns in the world in front of you but if you don't want to kill, that won't happen.  You can get rid of all guns in the world but with the will, you can still do mass murders.  Why are people selling drugs and forming drug gangs in the USA, land of opportunities?  Seems the immigrants can rise above the locals to wealth in the USA no matter what color or shade they are yet some people in the USA have a problem making ends meet.   So the problem are undisciplined spoiled slobs that want to do nothing but rob and steal other people's possessions.  Look at England, they ban guns, criminals still have them, their police are becoming a para military force, the streets are litered with cameras that stops no crime turning London into an Orwellian distopia and knife crimes are at a rate of 400 per week.  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new... 

England has the highest crime rate in europe. It shows your gun control agenda doesn't work. In a society that embraces the liberal mindset of disarming the victim, the criminals have free reign.  In regards to Asia, I was born in asia and grew up there.  I know about crimes in asia.  Most aren't even reported.  Sometimes its the police that does the robbing. When you tell police, they don't care unless there is a reward. They are more concerned with smooching some liquor off you to suck up to their boss for a promotion than finding the thieves. If it doesn't mean some career advancement or money, the police dones't care. Japan being an exception because they are a very disciplined society.