House Passes Ryan’s Budget in Party-Line Vote

House Republicans passed their 2012 budget resolution Friday afternoon, sending to the Senate a blueprint that would transform major entitlement programs like Medicare and Medicaid, lower taxes and cut some $6 trillion over the ensuing decade.

The 235-193 vote split almost strictly along party lines. Every Democrats voted against Congress Paul Ryan’s plan, while only four Republicans declined to back it: Walter Jones of North Carolina, David McKinley of West Virginia, the iconoclastic Ron Paul of Texas and Denny Rehberg of Montana, who is running for the U.S. Senate in a state with high Medicare enrollment.

Ryan’s budget blueprint is almost certainly dead on arrival in the upper chamber. But just a day after a bloc of 59 Republicans rebelled over the budget deal brokered by House Speaker John Boehner, the vote hands House Republicans a symbolic victory as members head home for a two-week spring recess. By holding together on Ryan’s “Path to Prosperity,” Republicans temporarily papered over the tears emerging in the party’s fabric as it grapples with the question of how hard to press in its agenda to cut spending.

For a nonbinding vote, the day’s exchanges were heated, with moments of rancor and dashes of levity. Nine protesters were ejected from the House gallery for interrupting the debate over the budget blueprint by loudly breaking into song. (The protesters, some of whom sang a variation of the “Star-Spangled Banner,” were later arrested.) During closing arguments, House Democrats booed Ryan when the House Budget Chairman blasted President Obama for failing to lead. “Will we be remembered as the Congress that did nothing?” Ryan said. “This is our defining moment.”

Democrats are betting the moment will haunt Republicans, who run the risk of alienating constituents by transforming Medicaid into a block-grant program administered by states and replacing Medicare with a system that offers seniors subsidies that partially cover the cost of private insurance. (The Medicare component saves money because the subsidies would not grow at the same pace as escalating health-care costs.) “The Republican budget breaks the promise that this country has made to seniors,” Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi said. “It ends Medicare as we know it.” At a morning press conference, Democrats derided Ryan’s “Path to Prosperity” as a “Road to Ruin,” hoisting yellow-and-black signs reading “HANDS OFF MY MEDICARE” and chanting slogans. Chris Van Hollen, the ranking Democrat on the Budget Committee, brought visual aides to the floor that showed CBO estimates of how Ryan’s vision would decrease benefits for seniors over time. “The House Republican plan places the burden of debt reduction on those who can least afford it, ends Medicare as we know it and doubles health care costs for seniors in order to pay for more than a trillion dollars in tax cuts for millionaires and billionaires,” White House Press Secretary Jay Carney said in a statement that closely echoed the denunciations pouring forth from the Democratic side of the floor.

Republicans used the debate to set the tone for the spending skirmishes on the horizon. “The President wants a clean bill. The American people will not tolerate it,” Boehner said, before borrowing Obama’s favorite rhetorical signpost: “Now let me be clear: there will be no debt limit increase unless it is accompanied by meaningful spending cuts and budget reforms.”

“I can tell you, our conference is united,” Majority Leader Eric Cantor told reporters this morning. Democrats put that unity to the test with a procedural gambit that nearly worked. During a vote over an alternate budget blueprint proposed by the Republican Study Committee — a group helmed by Rep. Jim Jordan that includes some 175 of the conference’s most conservative members — Democratic Whip Steny Hoyer instructed his side to vote “present,” hoping to lower the bar for passage so the measure would succeed and forestall a vote on the Ryan budget. The tactic touched off a chaotic few minutes, with members shouting across the chamber to corral colleagues. The RSC plan, which wielded an even bigger machete than Ryan’s, nabbed 119 Republican votes, with 120 GOPers voting against it. So much for unity.

In a floor speech today, Van Hollen scoffed at Republicans’ lofty praise for Ryan’s plan, calling it “the same old ideological agenda on steroids.” That’s party true. But as Congress heads off on its spring hiatus, it’s worth pausing to reflect on the GOP’s rightward lurch over the past year. Fourteen months ago, I profiled Ryan, who was attracting notice for propagating his “Roadmap” at a time when Democrats were portraying his party as an ideological graveyard intent mostly on obstructing the majority. At the time, party leaders lauded Ryan but wouldn’t touch his ideas with a 10-ft. pole. Now it’s been formally endorsed by both the GOP leadership and its rank-and-file. “I put this out there to get the debate going and show a different vision,” Ryan told me. “I don’t expect it to be the platform of the party. I expect it to launch a debate about what America is to become.”

It’s now become the platform of the party — and the centerpiece of what will be the biggest policy fight in the nation for months to come.

Related Topics: Congress
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  • http://elvisberg.wordpress.com Elvis Elvisberg

    Paul Ryan’s lying, of course.
    -
    It’s perfectly simple to address the deficit in a way that, unlike his plan, doesn’t actually make the deficit worse for the next ten years, then tell seniors that they’re out of luck if they need assistance to pay skyrocketing US health care costs.
    -
    Here’s one way: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/11/13/weekinreview/deficits-graphic.html?choices=809205qv
    And it’s also worth keeping in mind that the long-term budget problem is largely a problem with health care costs– which Medicare actually does a better job keeping down than private plans. So we need to bring down costs. “On a per capita basis also the U.S. spent the highest with a total of $7,290 which is two-and-half times the OECD average” Source: http://seekingalpha.com/article/146992-comparing-u-s-healthcare-spending-with-other-oecd-countries
    -
    There are policies we can pursue– some of which were in the ACA– to reduce health care costs. Ryan’s not-quite-really-a plan simply says, “we won’t help with those rising costs.” But it doesn’t address those costs, which are a US-only problem, as you can see in the link above.
    -
    It’ll never happen, of course– as we’ve seen in the past on the doc fix, or the alternative minimum tax, or the prescription drug donut hole, Congress tends to forgo service cuts and tax hikes in order to placate organizeed constituencies. The CBO recognizes this: “It is unclear whether and how future lawmakers would address the pressures resulting from the long-term scenarios or the proposal analyzed here.”
    -
    His plan is chock full of made up numbers, fails to respond to the crisis he’s railing about, would lead to misery for the nation’s seniors, and would never be implemented. He has no place lying about the unseriousness of others.

  • http://grapemusing.blogspot.com/ grape_crush

    “I expect it to launch a debate about what America is to become.”
    .
    Careful what you wish for, Your Arrogance.

  • nflfoghorn

    First let’s cancel “Obamacare,” now this. We can call this group the “Non-Starter Congress.”

  • Ivy_B

    Alex, you left out the really fun part of the day! There is more at the link.

    What was supposed to be a routine vote in the House — to knock down an amendment authored by conservative Republicans — turned into pandemonium on the House floor Friday, as Democrats tried to jam the plan through, and hang it around the GOP’s necks.

    Normally something like that would fail by a large bipartisan margin in either the House or the Senate. Conservative Republicans would vote for it, but it would be defeated by a coalition of Democrats and more moderate Republicans. But today that formula didn’t hold. In an attempt to highlight deep divides in the Republican caucus. Dems switched their votes — from “no” to “present.”

    Panic ensued. In the House, legislation passes by a simple majority of members voting. The Dems took themselves out of the equation, leaving Republicans to decide whether the House should adopt the more-conservative RSC budget instead of the one authored by Budget Committee Chairman Paul Ryan. As Dems flipped to present, Republicans realized that a majority of their members had indeed gone on the record in support of the RSC plan — and if the vote closed, it would pass. That would be a slap in the face to Ryan, and a politically toxic outcome for the Republican party.

    So they started flipping their votes from “yes” to “no.”

    http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/04/pandemonium-dems-jam-panic-republicans-with-even-more-conservative-budget.php

  • bobell

    Paul Ryan tells the House that he’s very worried about people sailing off the end of the Earth, which as we all know is flat. He proposes constructing a huge wall all around the edge. All the Republicans vote for it (no Demos),and it passes. Headlines the next day: “House Republicans boldly pass flat-earth protection bill unanimously.”

    Have we all gone nucking futs?

  • Matt

    Is this the end of the Republican Party? They are now on record as supporting — and almost unanimously so — a proposal that literally destroys the most popular program the government has ever created, a program that every American will benefit from and that saves lives of seniors that would otherwise be unable to afford care. No longer. RyanCare will throw elderly Americans into the den of the insurance companies with nothing but a scrap of paper as protection.
    http://www.sunstateactivist.org

  • darius3

    Ryan’s budget blueprint is almost certainly dead on arrival in the upper chamber. But just a day after a bloc of 59 Republicans rebelled over the budget deal brokered by House Speaker John Boehner, the vote hands House Republicans a symbolic victory

    Hahahaha, right. 235 Republicans just voted to end Medicare as we know it, and you’re trying to spin this as a “victory” for them. Nice try.

  • Ivy_B

    Not to mention that it cuts funding for school libraries. This will have the worst effect on poor districts which don’t have enough local funds to begin with, so rely on federal funds for libraries.

    Improving Literacy Through School Libraries is the only the only federal program exclusively for school libraries and is designed to boost academic achievement by providing students with access to up-to-date school library materials.

    http://www.schoollibraryjournal.com/slj/home/890227-312/congress_denies_federal_funding_for.html.csp

  • http://derekg.wordpress.com/ Derek

    “”Will we be remembered as the Congress that did nothing?” Ryan said. “This is our defining moment.”"

    You will be remembered as the Congress that did nothing about the issues currently facing the nation, like unemployment or eternal war, for example.

  • http://gum0nshoe.wordpress.com gumOnShoe

    We keep saying republicans are “lurching” right or “moving” right. This pretends they were on some track that was pretty much remaining the same, when in reality their entire party is dissolving and moving towards Anarcho-Capitalism…

  • fhmadvocat

    When one looks at the current behavior of Congress, it is no wonder why freeinpa, rusty and rdw56 complain about paying taxes!

    Who do the Republicans think they are fooling? This goal did not get one single Democratic vote. (Remember when our conservative friends squawked that the Affordable Healthcare Act got not one Republican vote in the House)

    Remember the Republicans controlled the White House, Senate and House for 6 years in the aughts and not once did they reduce spending. Now we are supposed to believe they found “religion” of balanced budgets.

    Of course we heard this all before. Remember Reagan promised us a balanced budget in the 1980′s only to watch the deficit quadruple during his watch or that he and Bush Sr. created as much debt as all the previous presidents combined.

    I used to think it was wrong to call the Republicans insane. But Einstein defined insanity as doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. In the case of the Republicans, it describes their policies to a Tee (tea party, that is).

  • nflfoghorn

    OT Headline –
    .
    Political Circus: Barney Frank bares all in Playboy
    .
    REALLY??

  • rdw56

    I’ve never complained about paying taxes. i happen to think our tax code is stupid and the idea of progressivity counter-productive. We’ve found with lower marginal rates the rich pay a lot more in taxes because they declare a lot more income. I’m in favor of he flat tax adapted by so many ‘new’ countries after the collapse of the USSR. Note Reagan wasn’t trying to lower tax revenues. He was trying to lower marginal tax rates to restore the incentives to work and invest.

    One of the more interesting aspect of the current era is that as younger people look back and find out tax rates were 70% when Reagan came into office they think the country was braindead. Who is going to work if they get such a small part of their own paycheck? It’s absurd. Well this is now the 9th year the Bush tax cuts have been in effect. By next year pretty much everyone under 32 won’t have paid even Clintonian tax rates and won’t be happy for the opportunity. It’s clear raising taxes on just those making > $250K won’t be nearly enough. The kids aren’t stupid. They know liberals will be coming for them next.

    Contrary to Joe’s prediction Obama is not going to get the opportunity to raise taxes next year rather sentiment will be towards the debt commissions proposal for another 1986 like tax simplification with very few exemptions and even lower marginal rates. The kids have been paying GWBs rates. They don’t want to pay bills their parents ran up.

  • rdw56

    Remember the Republicans controlled the White House, Senate and House for 6 years in the aughts and not once did they reduce spending. Now we are supposed to believe they found “religion” of balanced budgets.

    *************************************************************

    Bush lost a lot of conservative support for his lavish spending but it’s nothing compared to Obama. That’s why this comparison doesn’t work. Obama’s spending increases are so large they are shocking. Large majorities favor spending cuts to tax increases. It’s an unusual 2 to 1 majority and the tax proposals they support have no shot at closing the deficit.

    1st Qtr GDP will come out in early May and expectations have been revised down to as low as1.5%. That’s terrible. Revisions are released in 30 and 60 days but generally are minor. At the same time the monthly deficit report comes out mid month. Obama could very well be debating the debt ceiling while defending a series of bad GDP reports and worse budget reports well into the 3rd year of his Presidency. And then there’s gasoline prices.

    This could be a very long spring and summer with the debt ceiling vote leading directly to the 2011-2012 budget resolution. Morning in America? I don’t think so.

  • along1

    “Nonbinding”? No, it’s fully binding. Harry Reid could bring it to the floor on Monday and force the Republicans to vote for it clean, light it up with amendments, or filibuster it. If they declined to filibuster the motion to proceed out of embarrassment, then the Dems could provide enough votes to pass the damn thing, and let Obama savor the VETO. Which is binding.

  • rdw56

    I’m confused by his non-binding comment as well. But there is no chance Harry brings this bill to the floor. It’s not how the senate works and it would be pointless, probably counter-productive. What would an Obama veto accomplish? His opposition is well known. I get your gamesmanship but that’s not what voters want.

  • 53_3

    sorry charlie. If you are really convinced of that, go right ahead.
    .
    Of course, let’s not mention the dirty little fact that with Ryan, you get an extra 25k at least more in tax reductions while the rest of us idiots get nothing but a bigger burden to carry.
    .
    nice…

  • 53_3

    I think that fundamentally, Ryan is Welfare for the Rich.
    .
    …rainbows on fire indeed…

  • Alex Vallas

    I can think of no time in recent history when the Republican Party leadership is so lacking in intelligent thinking. They were duped by McCain and Palin — neither of whom had or have minute qualifications to be President and VP (which has been well proven in their actions). They are listening to Ryan who tries to project himself as America’s accountant and a financial guru on government spending and government policies. He has neither the educational background or experience. His bachelors degree from a little known college hardly qualifies him to establish the budget for the United States for the foreseeable future. His plan is full of flaws and is designed to enrich the rich with cuts taken from the middle class and poor. His plan is short on specifics and fact. His assumptions have no credibility. The BIG question, is how are so many GOP members of Congress following his lead? Do they never learn. Of course, the situation has become much worse with the Tea Party — a group of disgruntled individuals with a lack of vision or coherence. Their agenda: Screw the poor, the old, women, the sick and crown Wall Street, Bankers, themselves, and Lobbyist. In watching Ryan, it is interesting to see how his ego has outpaced his intelligence. The GOP follows.

  • Alex Vallas

    I love the way people blame Obama for the increase in the deficit. As anyone knows, if you go overboard in charges on your credit card, the interest eats up the payments and you go deeper in debt. There is no way the President could get us out of 8 years of total disregard for expenses and the deficit in a little over two years. Add to that the financial disasters created by lack of oversight by the Bush Administration of the financial markets and an unwarranted war in Iraq. Where was the GOP when the country was taken from a surplus to a huge deficit? Certainly, Cheney didn’t mind and Bush was too dim.

  • rdw56

    Welfare for the rich will never work as a marketing angle. This is a very different era. You are not appreciating the death of socialism and the slow but steady erosion of all Marxist type religions. 1st allowing people to keep more of the earnings they’ve struggled to make has as a base assumption all earnings belong to the govt and it’s up to Congress to decide how much the great unwashed gets to keep. You’ve got to be pretty extreme left to swallow that nonsense. Even if Congress were well respected you could not sell this garbage.

    Having grown up in the 60′s and 70′s and listening to so much leftist swill it was a neat little thrill to go to a college graduation a few years ago and here a large group of recent graduates so anxious to start making real money. These boys and girls like their toys. When I heard someone repeat one of my favorite sayings I was overjoyed. “If you are 20 and not a socialist you have a heart of stone. If you are 30 and still a socialist you have a hear of stone.” These kids were 22ish. They were toddlers when the USSR collapsed but their parents taught them well. There’s no one from Harvard saying as the did constantly n the 80′s that socialism is a viable system equal to capitalism. To be 25 in 2010 is to know from history socialism is evil. To be 50 in 2010 is to know from seeing it that socialism is evil. The polls for Congress are in the toilet. It’s simply not possible to convince Americans we should give Congress a bigger share of our paychecks because they can spend it more wisely than we can.

    You are absolutely, positively on the wrong side of history. What was the left pre-1989 has been evicerated. This is the 9th year of GWB level tax rates. You’ll always have a shot at getting 98% of voters to approve a tax increase on 2% but that tax increase won’t come close to paying down the deficit. This is widely known. Those 98% are not remotely interested in making up the difference. They want spending cut.

    BTW: ON top of the ideological impossibility you’ve got no shot at a decent campaign. Obama is a rotten advocate. Reagan sold supply-side. He brought rates from 70% to 28% when the other party was in power. Obama wasn’t able to raise rates 1% on just millionaires when he owned Congress.

  • rdw56

    How so you suppose Reagan and GWB made it to the White House? One of life’s truisms is that Liberals are really, really smart and conservatives are really, really stupid. It must drive liberals of a wall no one listens to them or wants to align with them. Gallups polls always show self-identified conservatives at 2x’s the levels of liberals. But at least you know you are smarter than everyone else. That has to count for something.

  • Alex Vallas

    How so you suppose Reagan and GWB made it to the White House? One of life’s truisms is that Liberals are really, really smart and conservatives are really, really stupid. It must drive liberals of a wall no one listens to them or wants to align with them. Gallups polls always show self-identified conservatives at 2x’s the levels of liberals. But at least you know you are smarter than everyone else. That has to count for something.
    ===============================
    Boy, your grammar and spelling would not put you into the intelligent class. I don’t know what Gallup poll you are referencing. Most college professors are Liberal as are the majority of authors. The new conservatives consist of redneck hillbillies, fundamentalist Christians, Rush, Beck, Bachmann and Palin followers. They bear no similarities with Eisenhower, Dirksen, Bridges, Reagan, Dulles, and a host of other notable Republicans.

  • rdw56

    Yeah, Bush is a dimwit. Of course he kicked your ass in 4 elections but he’s the idiot.

  • hippooath

    “How so you suppose Reagan and GWB made it to the White House? One of life’s truisms is that Liberals are really, really smart and conservatives are really, really stupid.”
    .
    Not at all; GOP and conservative pundits are very good at manipulate people such as yourself. There are no more useful tools than people who THINK like you. Note that most people here know that the democrats takes them for granted – we don’t vote democratic because we’re like you – ignorant – we vote democratic because the alternative right now – GOP – is a bad one.
    .

    “It must drive liberals of a wall no one listens to them or wants to align with them.”
    .
    I think this statement is almost true; up the wall no. I think most liberals feel it’s a sad statement that instead of a truly free market we have the idea that liberalism means socialism because useful tools such as yourself have been manipulated to believe so (very easily too) by the party you vote for. We have a truly centrist democratic party that is willing to bend over ‘for the good of the nation’ and a predatory GOP seized by the crazies who have managed to dupe corporate media to hawk every single idiot thing as if it’s a valid alternative view point. Look at our state of science; thousands of scientists look for a consensus but it’s treated as a alternative view point because a few paid and bought for half @ss scientists says something else.
    .
    “Gallups polls always show self-identified conservatives at 2x’s the levels of liberals. But at least you know you are smarter than everyone else. That has to count for something””
    .
    The true power of ignorance. Most people are centrist but default to bogus information that sounds ‘simple’ because thinking in complex terms about the many things that moves us takes away the precious 30 minutes it require when 5 minutes is all we have between coffee breaks and football.
    .
    Short – liberals are not smarter, just not as gullible as ‘you’.

  • http://sexsceneserotica.wordpress.com —————–

    Well, thanks for treating the elderly as if they abused you as kids. I mean, is that what this is about? Mr. Ryan, were you abused by your parents? Did they beat you? I wonder why they decided to take care of you when you were growing up, but you have nothing to give them in return. You sound like a spoiled, insolent, ungrateful child whose greed is a substitute for the respect and honor you should be bestowing not only on your own parents but on the people who fought in wars for this country, for people who worked hard all their lives, and for people who never did anything to hurt you.

    Shame is too good a word for you.

    Disgusted,

    Stephanie J. Golden

  • rdw56

    wow, I’m not in the intelligent class. What a burden! Maybe I can read you and learn up? Love your reasoning, Most college professors are liberal as are authors ergo liberals are smarter than everyone else. Well there’s no question they agree with you. No one else does but you should enjoy your fantasy. Why do you suppose liberal politicians like Bill and Hillary and Obama refuse to call themselves liberal?

    The smartest people in the world are not on campus. They’re on Wall Street, the Corporate sector, in the Sciences at the cutting edge. Those who can do, those who can’t teach. Rush is in that class of very intelligent. He is without question the most influential man in all media and very wealthy to boot. He is not a fundamentalist nor is he a politician.

  • rdw56

    You are aware no one under the age of 55 is impacted under Ryan’s bill?

  • rdw56

    Look at our state of science; thousands of scientists look for a consensus but it’s treated as a alternative view point because a few paid and bought for half @ss scientists says something else.

    *************************************
    I take it you mean global warming? What a perfect example of liberalism. The science is so bad you’ve had to rebrand it as climate change, a meaningless term that can and does mean anything you want it to.

    Also another great example of how the internet and blogs just blew the doors off the MSM. The science absolutely sucks and the number of brain dead mistake you made is unbelievable. How could anyone expect the UN to do a good job at anything? How could anyone use Al Gore as a spokesman. Leaving aside his long history of gross exaggerations and outright lies his own lifestyle was proof he never believed in it himself. Why on earth get hollywood involved? They all live in huge mansions, often several, fly private, and frequently and drive huge/fast cars. You think we don’t know?

    As far as the science check out wattsupwiththat.com once in a while and you’ll see good science. They were a major player in causing and then explaining climategate which some might view as the event that ended Kyoto but I think it was already dead. How cool that Japan, Canda and a boatload of others opened Cancun by announcing the would NOT participate in any more Kyoto type discussions. It’s so dead.

  • rdw56

    Home » Featured Block, US Politics » Gallup: Conservatives outnumber liberals 2:1, church attendance rising
    Gallup: Conservatives outnumber liberals 2:1, church attendance rising
    Posted by Mike Daniels Featured Block, US Politics Monday, June 28th, 2010

    Gallup polls released yesterday indicate that more than twice as many Americans consider themselves conservative than liberal, and that spread is growing

    There being more self-identified conservatives than self-identified liberals should come as little surprise. Over the 18 years Gallup has tracked “liberal”, “moderate”, or “conservative” self-labeling, self-identified conservatives have consistently accounted for roughly 38% of the population, and self-identified liberals about 19%. Moderates have centered at about 40%. However, in recent years — 2005 – 2008 — the number of conservatives had trended down as the number of liberals trended up.

    Since 2008, that trend has reversed. Liberals in 2008 accounted for 22% of the population, a figure dropping to 20% in 2010. That decline has not resulted in an increase in moderates; rather, moderates have declined from 37% in 2008 to 35% in 2010.

    Meanwhile, conservatives have seen their numbers leap from 37% in 2008 to 42% in 2010, the highest since 1992. The spread between conservatives and liberals is presently the broadest reported since 1996, and the percentage of the population identifying as “moderate” is the lowest since Gallup began tracking in 1992.

  • rdw56

    I love the way people blame Obama for the increase in the deficit.

    ********************************

    Is he innocent? Of course he gets the blame for now. He’s passed massive spending increases. This is your problem. The MSM can’t cover-up spending data. The charts are clear. We have a spending problem. State and local tax revenues were at all time highs in the 4th Qtr and most states now have balanced budgets. The Federal deficit is up 16% over last year and could hit an eye popping $1.6T. That’s 4x’s as much as any other President in any year.

    Altman above is hinting at something that is fascinating but he didn’t want to address it. Ryan felt himself his plan was too conservative. He wanted a starting point to the right of where he wanted to end up. He expected to negotiate and move closer to the center. Ryan didn’t get the push back he expected. Obama is unable to articulate a case for liberalism. He idea seems to be to rely on the MSM to convince people we can tax just the wealthy and all will be well. He can tax the wealthy at 100% and it won’t be near enough.

    Reagan was a successful radio announcer, actor, union president, corporate spokesman and governor before he became President. He negotiated 3 contracts for the screen actors guild. He majored in economics and kept up to date. Obama never had a job in the private sector. To expect him make savvy economic decisions was foolish. He’s not only getting blamed for the deficits but will get blamed for the weak recovery. He’s just not very good at anything.

  • rdw56

    You really want Obama to advocate for you?

  • http://szyskival.wordpress.com szyskival

    to rdw56 and others who apparently don’t understand that socialism and communism are two different things. Socialism is basically an economic system, as is capitalism, and most prospering nations, including the U.S., employ a system that is a combination of the two. Communism is a political system employing an extreme form of socialism combined with strict control of its people and ideas. Communism has failed everywhere but China, and its apparent success there depends on mixing in a dose of capitalism. Marxism has never really by tried, but I suspect it too would fail. Socialism however does thrive when mixed with the right amount of capitalism for that particular nation. Examples: Finland, Germany, France, all of which score higher in quality of life (education, health care etc) for the majority of their citizens than the U.S. Since Regan, only the wealthy have seen their life situations improve.

  • http://szyskival.wordpress.com szyskival

    I believe those are much of the same Americans who make American Idol the most popular show on TV, and my guess is more of them can name the last Idol, or Survival winner than can name the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court.

  • http://szyskival.wordpress.com szyskival

    Where do you think those on Wall Street, in the sciences etc received their education? I believe it was on university campuses, from those liberal professors.

  • 53_3

    Right.
    .
    It’s a marketing angle…
    .
    To wit:
    .
    Welfare for the rich will never work as a marketing angle. This is a very different era. You are not appreciating the death of socialism and the slow but steady erosion of all Marxist type religions.”
    .
    No, and you’re right — I’m not.
    .
    Why do you think that is?
    .
    First, I’lve lived through the cold war times and Vietnam war times and I know what both are. Our county has elements of socialism; any government, by definition, must, otherwise there would be no benefits in having a government.
    .
    The very fact that history is replete with socialist activities from tribal prehistory to the present is self evident. It gives me no pause whatever.
    .
    The ‘socialism’ and ‘Marxism’ items are inserted into this only as a marketing strategy. It is only GOP talking points, and as such, don’t predate my adult lifespan. Got it? Throw that one away…
    .
    1st allowing people to keep more of the earnings they’ve struggled to make has as a base assumption all earnings belong to the govt and it’s up to Congress to decide how much the great unwashed gets to keep.”
    .
    Errors galore. More marketing? Let me count the ways:
    1. You and other high income Americans may have struggled, some of you may indeed have, however, at no point should one even attempt to convey the idea that you have taken more risks, or harder struggles than the middle class, or the poor. Under the Ryan plan, it is they who will reap all the costs while the upper class reaps all the benefits.
    .
    That’s what will happen when you strip away the marketing of this thing. B&W. Living color. Take your pick.
    .
    2. there are laws and there are assumptions, which are restricted to your personal opinion. The underlying framework is simply this:
    .
    Government is necessary.
    .
    Government benefits the people (rural subsidies, case in point, I don’t benefit, but I do pay)
    .
    Government costs money.
    .
    The people being governed must share the cost.
    .
    Those are the underlying — tested over 6,000 years of human history — concepts behind taxation. Your assumption (your personal opinion) is wrong. Your entire performance so far here is as you said at the very beginning:
    .
    A marketing strategy.
    .
    You’ve got to be pretty extreme left to swallow that nonsense. Even if Congress were well respected you could not sell this garbage.
    .
    That’s fine rdw, I did too. Guess I grew up on the other side of the railroad tracks.
    .
    This is toilet paper. A rant. Empty, nothing more.

    Having grown up in the 60′s and 70′s and listening to so much leftist swill it was a neat little thrill to go to a college graduation a few years ago and here a large group of recent graduates so anxious to start making real money. These boys and girls like their toys. When I heard someone repeat one of my favorite sayings I was overjoyed. “If you are 20 and not a socialist you have a heart of stone. If you are 30 and still a socialist you have a hear of stone.” These kids were 22ish. They were toddlers when the USSR collapsed but their parents taught them well. There’s no one from Harvard saying as the did constantly n the 80′s that socialism is a viable system equal to capitalism. To be 25 in 2010 is to know from history socialism is evil. To be 50 in 2010 is to know from seeing it that socialism is evil. The polls for Congress are in the toilet. It’s simply not possible to convince Americans we should give Congress a bigger share of our paychecks because they can spend it more wisely than we can.
    .
    Well, more toilet paper. Another rant, pointless and ignorant of the real world, anyway.

    You are absolutely, positively on the wrong side of history. What was the left pre-1989 has been evicerated. This is the 9th year of GWB level tax rates. You’ll always have a shot at getting 98% of voters to approve a tax increase on 2% but that tax increase won’t come close to paying down the deficit. This is widely known. Those 98% are not remotely interested in making up the difference. They want spending cut.
    .
    So I take it, out of this boasting, that what you are really saying is that your “audience” is bigger than mine. Go ahead. You’ll find that the view through your audience is a very, very narrow tube that opens out into a tiny, tiny world.
    .
    …consisting mostly of views of toilets, or worse…
    .
    BTW: ON top of the ideological impossibility you’ve got no shot at a decent campaign. Obama is a rotten advocate. Reagan sold supply-side. He brought rates from 70% to 28% when the other party was in power. Obama wasn’t able to raise rates 1% on just millionaires when he owned Congress.
    .
    Another penis-eye view? Okaay.
    .
    In summary, I’ll say this:
    .
    It is clear that rdw really doesn’t care that this is welfare for the rich. He’s really only concern is how it is marketed. And, in addition, is entirely proud of the fact that this particular marketing scheme is apparently working!

    .

  • 53_3

    At 16, you all might find it interesting that rdw does not deny that this is welfare for the rich.
    .
    It’s only a “marketing scheme”!

  • hippooath

    “I take it you mean global warming? What a perfect example of liberalism. The science is so bad you’ve had to rebrand it as climate change, a meaningless term that can and does mean anything you want it to. “
    .
    Thanks for the long meaningless rant – but no. I’m talking about pretty much ALL science. If it’s science that corporations or the emotionally insecure GOP doesn’t like the whole echo chamber of punditry fall on the one voice that says something different and the rest of the media apparatus falls back on he/she. Remember smoking?
    .
    You rant is proof positive of what I wrote; useful tools. You simply fire off a plate full of mash potato talking points with UN and the likes. It’s like one long distressed though pattern of non thinking. Let me guess; you heard it from a rightie source? You didn’t actually come to the consensus yourself based on anything you really KNOW about science. Just what you heard from the echo chamber.
    .
    BTW – leaving the whole ‘science’ thing like I wrote it was a bait – just to see if you would stumble into it and you did. So, I might not be smart, but I’m not a tool. I simply have to vote democratic because the other choice is simply insane.

  • Alex Vallas

    First, Gallup is a Polling Organization and not political or economic analysts.

    Since you are a fan of Fox News, Rush and polls, let me paste a study by the University of Maryland:

    Fox News viewers are much more likely than others to believe false information about American politics, a new study concludes.

    The study, conducted by the University of Maryland, judged how likely consumers of various news outlets and publications were to believe misinformation about a wide range of political issues. Overall, 90% of respondents said they felt they had heard false information being given to them during the 2010 election campaign. However, while consumers of just about every news outlet believed some information that was false, the study found that Fox News viewers, regardless of political information, were “significantly more likely” to believe that:

    –Most economists estimate the stimulus caused job losses (12 points more likely)

    –Most economists have estimated the health care law will worsen the deficit (31 points)

    –The economy is getting worse (26 points)

    –Most scientists do not agree that climate change is occurring (30 points)

    –The stimulus legislation did not include any tax cuts (14 points)

    –Their own income taxes have gone up (14 points)

    –The auto bailout only occurred under Obama (13 points)

    –When TARP came up for a vote most Republicans opposed it (12 points)

    –And that it is not clear that Obama was born in the United States (31 points)

    THOSE WHO SCORE POINTS ARE WRONG…….

    In addition, the study said, increased viewership of Fox News led to increased belief in these false stories.

    Moral: Those who watch Fox News are not the brightest lights on the planet.

  • earljr1

    Reading this commentary provides an interesting peak into the liberal mindset.
    # 1 We think we are smarter than everyone else.
    #2 We are really sure we have ALL the answers.
    #3 We remain oblivious to reality.

    While the country spirals toward bankruptcy, our liberal friends grasp the straws of entitlement ever closer to their breast and cry most pitifully when faced with the reality of affordability.
    Drastic cuts to government spending, hard as they might be, are not only necessary, but imperative, if we are to avoid a total financial collapse.

    “Wilt thou seal up the avenues of ill?
    Pay every debt as if God wrote the bill.”

    Ralph Waldo Emerson

  • rdw56

    don’t predate my adult lifespan. Got it? Throw that one away…

    *************************************
    I have no idea of your lifespan nor do I care. The crux of marxism is alive and well among the left and that’s the class warfare politics of putting the haves against the have nots. It’s always easier to get people to vote for a tax increase when you promise it’ll be ‘the other guy’ paying it and yet Obama still fails.

    The age is shifting. The image of rich people in the 60′s was of corporate titans hiding out on their country clubs isolated from the great unwashed spending exploited profits. Today the rich are Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, Michael Dell, Steve Jobs, Oprah, etc. They’re not bad guys what’s not to like about IPads and PCs? They didn’t exploit anyone. They didn’t steal anything. Why punish them?

  • newfreedomblog

    “There are policies we can pursue– some of which were in the ACA– to reduce health care costs.”

    .
    Oh please list all of the ways ACA aka ObamaCare will drive down the cost of healthcare. Please do.

  • http://szyskival.wordpress.com szyskival

    Add to Alex’s comment, that polls taken just before the 2008 election indicated that the majority of those who relied on Fox for their news believed it was Iraq who attacked us on 9/11. As to climate change/warming: one can choose to ignore the vast majority of scientists, but not the disappearing glaciers and snow caps.

  • rdw56

    Learn how to read friend. I trashed the entire concept as nonsense. “Letting” people keep the money they earn can only be considered welfare on the far left. Oprah doesn’t owe you a dime and she damn sure doesn’t have any responsibility for your bills.

    The marketing is only a reference to the job of selling such marxist puke. You got no shot.

  • rdw56

    As to climate change/warming: one can choose to ignore the vast majority of scientists, but not the disappearing glaciers and snow caps.

    *******************************************

    I am only so patient because my side has won so decisively. At last years meetings in Cancun, the last scheduled under the Kyoto agreement, Japan opened by announcing they were done with kyoto and would not be joining in any future agreements. They were joined by Canada and a dozen others. It’s over.

    As far as glaciers melting we’ve been in a warming trend for several hundred years, pre-dating the industrial age. The warming trend has not been questioned. Claims by the alarmists have been silly and obviously unsupported by the data.

    It’s over. There won’t be more Kyoto’s.

  • rdw56

    No question you two are libs. You don’t like the poll so you trash the voters. You have to understand. Liberals are a breed apart. You’ve been blessed with a special intelligence not every one has. You can’t really expect we mere mortals to keep pace.

    As far as the U of MD poll do you really expect an academic institution to be objective about Fox? From MD? For the record I have no idea why you think it matters what Fox watchers believe, nor Rush listeners. Pity they get the same vote you do.

  • rdw56

    Not in the business schools. But even so it doesn’t matter. I had my share of liberal professors. You play to their vanities. In my case they were concentrated in the liberal arts courses as well as fringe business classes like Industrial behavior. There’s no liberal accounting or finance or econ.

  • rdw56

    You didn’t actually come to the consensus yourself based on anything you really KNOW about science. Just what you heard from the echo chamber.

    ***************************

    Actually I did come to a consensus myself. There are dozens of great sites to review and explain the science. But then a lot of it is obvious. It shocks me you can’t grasp what a disaster Al Gore has been. He has a very long and well detailed history of gross exaggerations and simply making things up. Plus his own lifestyle proves he doesn’t believe a word of it. Anyone with an IQ higher than a pea can figure out why you went from global warming to climate change.

    It’s so over. And you people think you are smart..

  • hippooath

    “I am only so patient because my side has won so decisively”
    .
    What does that mean? You think your ignorance intimidates us or that somehow because you ‘won’ you also get to write your own facts? I know – the victor writes history yet today we know what the victors did despite their attempt to write their part of history in a favorable light. It’s called research. I personally don’t give a hoot if your patient or not since you freaking out and tell me ‘how it is’ won’t matter since I’m used to read ignorant rants that have no impact on my life whatsoever.
    .
    “It’s over. There won’t be more Kyoto’s.”
    .
    Yeah, I’ve heard that too from geniuses like yourself. It got really cold and started snowing which is proof that global warming is over. That’s the science behind ideologues. As if global warming means that suddenly everything is 90 degrees and desert.
    .
    “No question you two are libs. You don’t like the poll so you trash the voters. You have to understand. Liberals are a breed apart. You’ve been blessed with a special intelligence not every one has. You can’t really expect we mere mortals to keep pace. “
    .
    This is the special bus argument of whatever you think it means. I’m sure most ‘liberals’ consider themselves above mouth breather but not because everyone have a higher end education or anything; just because we embrace knowledge and science as suppose to want everyone to be as exceptional and ignorant as you want them to be. You don’t want a political leader that is educated and smart; you want someone to have a beer with and that have a better score at bowling and skeet shooting than the smarts to know when to negotiate or when to drop bombs. You just want someone that is all fist, tackle box and can wrestle a animal down on the ground and skin it before it dies. It’s some kind of mythological tough guy that makes your tribe shine.
    .
    Personally I want the smartest man in this country to lead and someone with 200% common sense. I don’t need more lawyers, fake doctors and business suits that think of Americans as statistics.
    .
    Personally I don’t want someone who knows how to manipulate you to skip, dance and flail your arms around like a puppet because they give you all the emotionally charged words that make you wet your pants in fear and cry like a baby because you’re so damn proud to be exceptional.

  • hippooath

    Earl,
    .
    I bet there are some liberals that are smart enough to get a real doctors degree as suppose to your imagined one.

  • 53_3

    I invite anyone here to read 16, and rdw’s commentary, most of it GOP Toilet Paper.
    .
    Oh, and do you know why my lifespan matters, rdw?
    .
    Because it predates this particular marketing cycle, peppered with words like ‘socialism’, ‘Marxism’, ‘ObamaCare’, etc.
    .
    Why does it matter that my lifespan predates these things?
    .
    Because there was none of the things you speak of had any relevancy and were not part of the past in this country.
    .
    After all, rdw, I was there, too, and you cannot lie to me!

  • 53_3

    One that has a real sense of things Hippocratic, too, I might add…

  • 53_3

    Doesn’t it just irk you, earljr1, that my wife is into her second month of entitlement jonesing and refuses to die?
    .
    She’s twice the woman, even without her legs now, than you are a human, which you are not…

  • hippooath

    “Actually I did come to a consensus myself. There are dozens of great sites to review and explain the science. But then a lot of it is obvious. It shocks me you can’t grasp what a disaster Al Gore has been. He has a very long and well detailed history of gross exaggerations and simply making things up. Plus his own lifestyle proves he doesn’t believe a word of it. Anyone with an IQ higher than a pea can figure out why you went from global warming to climate change.
    .
    It’s so over. And you people think you are smart..”
    .
    You’re telling me that he convinced thousands of scientists that it’s all a hoax? Interesting theory. Or maybe while you harken on about Al Gore you might notice that I talked about scientists and last I checked he wasn’t one.
    .
    I went from global warming to climate change? Interesting – I didn’t know I did it all myself.

  • rdw56

    So I take it, out of this boasting, that what you are really saying is that your “audience” is bigger than mine. Go ahead. You’ll find that the view through your audience is a very, very narrow tube that opens out into a tiny, tiny world.
    .
    *****************

    It’s not complicated in any way. This President was unable to get a single vote to raises taxes even just 1% on just millionaires. This brilliant man and world class orator could not even get a vote. It’s not my view. It’s a consensus.

  • 53_3

    Yup. Ryan’s inverted welfare for the rich has it’s supporters:
    .
    Earljr1, with his $167k tear jerker.
    .
    rdw56, with the Brain that the Wizards of Fox gave him.
    .
    They demand the right to not only lean on their shovels while the rest of us take a step closer to the edge in the name of our country, but they want to be able to sit on their comfy couches while doing it!
    .
    If you’re buying, their selling…

  • 53_3

    Thank you for speaking out.
    .
    rdw’s commentary is what I would call divisive:
    .
    rdw:
    .
    It’s not affecting you, so why should you care?
    .
    everyone else
    .
    because it’s wrong…

  • hippooath

    “Learn how to read friend. I trashed the entire concept as nonsense. “Letting” people keep the money they earn can only be considered welfare on the far left. Oprah doesn’t owe you a dime and she damn sure doesn’t have any responsibility for your bills.
    .
    The marketing is only a reference to the job of selling such marxist puke. You got no shot.”
    .
    So she doesn’t take advantage of the infrastructure and the education we provide in the commons? Interesting. She walks on air and hire dressed monkeys without education?
    .
    You have a remarkably weak argument – everyone owes this country it’s dues. It’s the only way it functions as a modern society. Without it you don’t have a country – you have Somalia and whatever pirate is powerful enough to take the power through force. History shows that; despotism is pretty much out of style.
    .
    Remember why we revolted – tax without representation. We understand that paying taxes is part of a society – but at the same time as we pay taxes we all ‘own’ a part of our society.
    .
    Rich people take advantage of our commons moreso than regular joe schmoe. They use our roads, our airways, our communication and our lands to get rich. They enjoy our protection from external enemies, our protection from internal thiefs and our legal system offer them protection of their branding and physical and intellectual property.
    .
    Rich people can get filthy rich by using what we as commons provide – them paying slightly more in taxes isn’t exactly hurting them. They have billions and a balanced budget with their help only strengthens our country.
    .
    What you argue for is Somalia.

  • 53_3

    And I did forget to mention that both are very, very proud of the size of their audiences!

  • rdw56

    You’re telling me that he convinced thousands of scientists that it’s all a hoax?

    ***********************************

    He didn’t convince any scientist of anything and there are not thousands of them with expertise. Most of them despise Al Gore because he made fools out of them with some of his exaggerations.

    They all know what happened at Cancun.

  • 53_3

    I also want to make sure that people here understand that Medicare goes hand in hand with Social Security:
    .
    Receiving social security is pointless if those SS checks are eaten up by privatized, and increasingly worthless ‘vouchers’.
    .
    Don’t think so? I’m 57, my wife is 61, and had it not been for Medicare, we would already have gone under (bankruptcy) or worse.
    .
    Now, for all of you who are younger and considering approving of the wisdom of this:
    .
    Mentally adjust your age to 56. Talk to older, middle income (and lower) Americans who are in my situation now!
    .
    That will eventually be your fate. However, you will face it without any of the protections we have.
    .
    The motto of this little moral:
    .
    Be careful what you wish for. You may just get it…

  • hippooath

    “He didn’t convince any scientist of anything and there are not thousands of them with expertise. Most of them despise Al Gore because he made fools out of them with some of his exaggerations.
    .
    They all know what happened at Cancun.”
    .
    Awesome argument; you’re basically saying without proof that most scientists have no expertise (and I’m sure ‘yours’ do), most of them hate Al Gore and something happened in Cancun.
    .
    As I said; you’re a useful tool. Mash potato talking points. A bowl full.

  • 53_3

    Just if anyone doubts that I’m like most middle income Americans:
    .
    1. I make $45000 a year.
    2. My wife make $520 on Social Security
    3. We own a home, a small one.
    4. We have private insurance and Medicare for my wife.
    .
    We are the New Normal…

  • rdw56

    You have a remarkably weak argument – everyone owes this country it’s dues.

    ****************************

    Liberals pull this stupid strawman out all the time. It’s why you can’t win arguments. Just because Oprahs rates are not going up doesn’t mean they’re going to zero. She pays far more in taxes then you but does not use the roads any more than you.

    The suggestion Oprah is successful because she had more access to the infrastructure is dumb, She is successful because she’s worked harder than you and worked smarter than you.

  • hippooath

    “Liberals pull this stupid strawman out all the time. It’s why you can’t win arguments. Just because Oprahs rates are not going up doesn’t mean they’re going to zero. She pays far more in taxes then you but does not use the roads any more than you.”
    .
    Dude, read up WHAT a straw man means. Just because you use them doesn’t mean others do; my argument was EXACTLY related to your premise that she should keep her money.
    .
    “The suggestion Oprah is successful because she had more access to the infrastructure is dumb, She is successful because she’s worked harder than you and worked smarter than you.”
    .
    So she’s not succesful because we have the technology to broadcast her show and to print her magazine? Who’s airwaves are those? Hers?
    .
    Are you telling me that Oprah would have had the same success in Kenya given that she worked hard?
    .
    There’s a reason why she produce in America and not Venezuela (but I’m sure she sells the rights for them to broadcast her show there). It’s a reason why companies build here, make money here and off shore their headquarters – that way they can reap the benefit of our commons and pay little or no tax. We pay for their ability to maximize their profits.
    .
    You really don’t have any clue about why a company would put up shop here; it’s all about taxes? No bud – it’s about education and infrastructure. When we don’t offer quality infrastructure and education anymore we’re left with service companies instead while technology companies and such move where they find well educated people and the premier infrastructure. No wonder why Saudi Arabia is right now putting truck loads of money into building up a great infrastructure since they know that their oil won’t last forever and it’s a reason why China is booming building infrastructure and communication. Including renewable energy. The world knows the value of infrastructure and while we decide to stop spending in it, they’re continuing.
    .
    And what separates us from countries like Africa is both education and our infrastructure. But thanks to GOP and backwards thinking we might actually have more in common with Africa soon enough.

  • rdw56

    Rich people can get filthy rich by using what we as commons provide – them paying slightly more in taxes isn’t exactly hurting them.

    *******************

    Oprah didn’t get filthy rich by using the commons. We all use the commons. We’d all be rich if it was a matter of using the commons. Oprah got rich working hard and working smart. You had the same opportunity. Oprah doesn’t play slightly more in taxes. She pays millions more as does her business and her employees. She’s been paying tons more for those commons than you for decades. You should thank her.

  • hippooath

    “Oprah didn’t get filthy rich by using the commons. We all use the commons. We’d all be rich if it was a matter of using the commons. Oprah got rich working hard and working smart. You had the same opportunity. Oprah doesn’t play slightly more in taxes. She pays millions more as does her business and her employees. She’s been paying tons more for those commons than you for decades. You should thank her.”
    .
    Sigh – you’re daft. I guess our airwaves didn’t make it possible for her to produce and broadcast her show. And if the increase in her taxes goes from say 34 to 36 percent it’s a slight increase in her tax rate. You’d think she would sweat it?
    .
    I should thank a rich person? Why? I pay taxes too. What is with you and your slobbering worship of rich people.
    .
    BTW – using the commons isn’t like flushing the toilet. It’s not something that automatically makes you rich. You know that right? Commons is just one of the resources you have available for you to make it, but without it you won’t. Again – if you believe that Oprah could make it in Kenya I’m sure you can exclude our commons and somehow explain how her exceptional smartness would make it possible there.

  • rdw56

    So she’s not succesful because we have the technology to broadcast her show and to print her magazine? Who’s airwaves are those? Hers?

    *************************

    She’s not any more successful or any less successful than you or any other American because of this access. It is part of our infrastructure which she’s paif a lot more to support than you. We all had the same access. She made it work better than anyone else. She is rich because of her efforts.

    I can’t imagine what you are thinking. Obama with huge majorities in Congress could not raise taxes even 1%. He could not get a single Senate vote. You haven’t lost this debate. You’ve been crushed. This isn’t even a little confusing. You can’t get a more decisive outcome.

  • 53_3

    But one thing you completely overlooked, rdw, and is at the core of these arguments:
    .
    Our government made this possible.
    .
    It is clear you want to be a “Somali Pirate”; a big fish in a little pond’ you are invested in this and NEED a rationalization!
    .
    Your implication is shot through with elitist thought; that you take more risks; that you know better; that you are more important.
    .
    You are NOT!
    .
    For another rdw, is the fact that we have a much more difficult time shouldering this massive burden because our incomes are NOT ENOUGH!
    .
    Now, you may pay taxes, but you do so in comfort. You do not sweat, you are not in any danger of losing your home, and you do not have to choose between essentials in order to prioritize!
    .
    Yes, I am angry. The cat, after 40 years, is now out of the bag:
    .
    You, rdw56, are a lazy, shiftless whiner who only wants others to do the hard work!
    .
    So:
    .
    Shut the fock up and grab that damned shovel. Ours may be smaller, but we dig far harder than you!

  • 53_3

    Just to make clear my anger:
    .
    The likes of rdw56 and earljr1 are filthy leeches sucking on the body politic and now, sated with unbounded greed, want us to do the dirty work!
    .
    Filthy whores…

  • 53_3

    Thank you all, I’ve said my peace on this one.
    .
    If anyone doubts where I stand, take a look at 16, 16.2, 19, and between 22 and 25 (not exclusively).
    .
    There is, sometimes, a place for anger. And that time is now…

  • rdw56

    if you believe that Oprah could make it in Keny

    *****************************

    keyna has nothing to do with anything. It’s about US Tax policy, Oprah and you. You want Oprah to pay your bills because she is smarter and more successful than you. People rob banks because that’s where the money is. Libs go after the wealthy. Oprah made it on her own. Bill Gates made it on his own. They created their wealth. Not you. The fact she has already paid so much in taxes is why you pay so little. You should thank her.

  • hippooath

    “She’s not any more successful or any less successful than you or any other American because of this access. It is part of our infrastructure which she’s paif a lot more to support than you. We all had the same access. She made it work better than anyone else. She is rich because of her efforts.”
    .
    You’re not getting it – without it she wouldn’t be successful. And without all of us she couldn’t afford to build the infrastructure on her own to be succesful. You think Walmart built the roads and infrastructure to make their fortunes?
    .

    “I can’t imagine what you are thinking. Obama with huge majorities in Congress could not raise taxes even 1%. He could not get a single Senate vote. You haven’t lost this debate. You’ve been crushed. This isn’t even a little confusing. You can’t get a more decisive outcome.”
    .
    Huh? What the heck does this mean? My argument to balance the budget have been crushed because Obama is spineless and the democratic party can’t imagine raising taxes because they’re afraid of the screeching GOP? You’re a goof. It goes back to what I was argument about being smart and ignorant. You’re ignorant because when you can’t win a argument with a better one you declare victory by making silly statements like these.

  • 53_3

    That is what is wrong with you, rdw, you view sharing the burden as punishment!
    .
    I don’t need to further comment on this pointless take on Ryan…

  • hippooath

    “keyna has nothing to do with anything.”
    .
    It does. You made the statement that Oprah would be successful without what this country provides. Now show me the argument how she would in Kenya minus this country. “It’s about US Tax policy, Oprah and you. You want Oprah to pay your bills because she is smarter and more successful than you.”
    .
    That’s a red herring. Look it up. You made the statement that I want her to pay my bills. No I don’t. Make make money using the infrastructure we all provide so she should pay her part. I don’t ask her to pay 99% in taxes. The few extra percent that is required together with common sense tax cuts would balance the budget. Yours is a fallacy argument; you make claims about what I want that you have no idea about.
    .
    “People rob banks because that’s where the money is. Libs go after the wealthy.”
    .
    Straw man – look it up. You’re is a pure baloney argument. Rich and corporations are paying less in taxes today as a percentage and the burdon is shifted onto the middle class. We have less resources and less opportunity for upward mobility and the rich and corporations have everything. They make us pay for the commons will reaping the benefit of it. There are more rich people with even more money today than ever before. It’s not just ‘smarts’ it’s the resources they have to shift the political power against the middle class.
    .
    “Oprah made it on her own. Bill Gates made it on his own. They created their wealth. Not you.”
    .
    Straw man. I never claimed that I had any hand in them making it. I claimed that without us they wouldn’t. Put Oprah or Bill Gates in Kenya in the 80’s and tell me if they would be where they are now. Yours is a logic fail. You keep inventing arguments I or others are not making.
    .
    “The fact she has already paid so much in taxes is why you pay so little. You should thank her.””
    .
    Never – I have no reason, nor interest in thanking her. I pay for myself. Your worship and slobbering over rich people is atypical for your specious ignorance; you can’t find a argument where these people would actually be able to do it without what our country (or a similar country). You appear to argue that what they pay now is enough because they’re so filthy rich that if they pay 15% they still pay many times more than I ever could. Yet I pay more percentage wise than your average stock investor. I pay more percentage wise than GE. You confuse the total amount of what they pay with what I do. That’s just idiot math. I assume that if 0.0001 of their wealth would be as much as what I pay then you would be fine with it. After all – they earned what they made and should be able to take a free ride in our society.
    .
    BTW – biggest clue to how ignorant you are is that you started talking about Marxism and that’s about ownership of production. Not tax policy. You can always tell how ignorant a person is when they confuse production with tax policy (like higher taxes is socialism).

  • 53_3

    One thing I might point out here rdw is that Oprah is p!ssed at Obama for giving in to the recent extension of the Bush tax cuts that would raise taxes for her!
    .
    I’ll point out also, that given that, she considers paying higher taxes her obligation, and a way of giving back to the society that helped her be who she is.
    .
    Unlike you, she does not view it as punishment…

  • rwbbinla

    rdw.. Did you forget that the president allowed the reduction in taxes to remain because the republicans held the unemployed and middle class hostage? He does not have to get any votes to let them expire, not now, not in the future. It is the way Bush set it up. Is this just another mis-representation of many from you?

  • rwbbinla

    @19.1… Correction! No one over the age of 55 is affected.You can always tell a policy’s merit by what and who it excludes. If it is good policy impliment it immediately, otherwise go back to the drawing board.

  • rwbbinla

    @20.0 … Wall Street has the smartest people? I guess that could be true if you think ripping off regular americans of their savings and investments is somehow noteworthy.

  • rwbbinla

    How did Oprah get into this thread? Oh! Wait! I see!

  • rwbbinla

    Good words! Peace my fellow American.

  • earljr1

    Thank you, 53 and hippo, for making my point. It should be obvious to all just how narrow your perspective is.

    Anger and insults are a poor substitute for rational thought, but with the two of you, this is pretty much what one might expect. (based on past performance)

    Irrational, stubborn, inflexible and profoundly angry…what an unhappy state of denial you must live in.

  • earljr1

    Gee, 53, if it makes you feel any better, I paid 174K in federal income tax THIS year and yet, you still call me a leech….how much did you pay?

  • 53_3

    profoundly angry, yes.
    .
    Irrational, no.
    .
    An accurate description of Ryan, dead on (and I do mean dead, because that is the price that will be paid by those less fortunate – I know this intimately).
    .
    Regardless of what you may think, evil swine, I am the new normal.
    .
    There are millions out there in my position, and I believe that my anger is entirely justified. It is time for the American people to put an end to this filth.
    .
    FYI, the offer is still open, earljr1. I would dearly love for you to take it up…

  • 53_3

    Oh, and just how narrow is that perspective:
    .
    If I were under the age of 55, and in the position I am now, and Ryan did pass, my wife would die.
    .
    And if I were under the age of 55, I would refuse to sacrifice the health of my loved ones at your alter of greed.
    .
    That’s all it is. Greed. Pure and simple.

  • 53_3

    You are a leech. You are not facing discomfort. You are not in danger of bankruptcy. You do not have to worry about whether you have enough money to keep your loved one alive.
    .
    And yes, you are the filthiest kind of leech. I’ve paid $3350 in taxes and I’ve paid $4520 in medical expenses.
    .
    That does not include anything this year, which promises to be far, far more!
    .
    The moment of truth:
    .
    My income, including my wife’s’ is about $51,500. What is your income?

  • 53_3

    And the filthiest part?
    .
    That’s the part where you would stand to save $55,000 dollars!
    .
    All that extra juju for you while dare to tell ME to shovel harder with what little we have!

  • 53_3

    In summary, again, earljr1 and rdw56 focus on the anger, which is justified.
    .
    As far as the narrow viewpoint?
    .
    When it concerns things that will outright hurt the middle class and below, all so the likes of earljr1 and rdw56 can walk a little farther from the edge, in a little more comfort, are not going to fly!
    .
    If that’s too narrow a viewpoint, then I’m fine with it.

  • 53_3

    Thanks. Sometimes, just sometimes, there is a place for anger.
    .
    And I won’t sugarcoat this particular nasty batch of worms that are being sold:
    .
    They want more and want us to do with less.
    .
    How laughable…

  • 53_3

    For an accurate and more comprehensive criticism of what you consider to be “values” see 22.9.
    .
    It applies equally well to you and can stand in as an adjunct to my commentary at 26.2.

  • 53_3

    Again, shutting the door on this one.
    .
    As I’ve said before, I am in no way concerned about anger. One cannot go through an entire lifetime without ever having to draw the sword.
    .
    It is time…

  • thethirdcell

    A Republican approach to fixing the deficit that they created?

    1) Shut down the government!
    2) Never cut the defense budget which has grown 81% since 2000?
    3) Take the disabled and place them on mountain tops to die, instead of paying Medicaid?
    4) Continue to allow corporations like GE, Exxon Mobil and the Bank of America not to pay taxes?
    5) Continue to attack the American worker reducing further their wages and benefits?
    6) Attack the very people who put tax dollars into Social Security and Medicare and tell them too bad, eat cake!

    As the Republicans wring their hands and cry foul over raising taxes and making the wealthy and corporations pay a fair share, may I remind this bunch of losers, in eight years you ran up an $11 trillion dollar debt, while fighting an illegal war, giving massive unfunded government subsidies to the pharmaceutical companies and cause the greatest economic meltdown since the Great Depression? May I also remind you that you did nothing while $20 Trillion dollars of toxic derivatives were sold to the world, causing governments massive deficits in their pension funds!

    Please shut up and do the right thing for the American people. Not just the upper 1%!

    An American worker voting for a Republican is sort of like a chicken supporting Colonel Sanders!

  • http://grapemusing.blogspot.com/ grape_crush

    You really want Obama to advocate for you?
    .
    You really want GOPers like Ryan to advocate against you?*
    .
    *Assuming you’re not one of the wealthiest of Americans that Ryan wants to lower-economic-class wealth to…

  • 53_3

    …and then, they blame it on the Black Man. Nevermind that he’s half White…

  • http://elvisberg.wordpress.com Elvis Elvisberg

    http://www.tnr.com/blog/jonathan-chait/86447/the-affordable-care-act-did-happen
    -

    The Affordable Care Act’s central hope is that Medicare can lead the health-care system to pay for value, cut down on overtreatment, and cut out treatments that simply don’t work. The law develops Accountable Care Organizations, in which Medicare pays one provider to coordinate all of your care successfully, rather than paying many doctors and providers to add to your care no matter the cost or outcome, as is the current practice. It also begins experimenting with bundled payments, in which Medicare pays one lump-sum for all care related to the successful treatment of a condition rather than paying for every piece of care separately. To help these reforms succeed, and to help all doctors make more cost-effective treatment decisions, the law accelerates research on which drugs and treatments are most effective, and creates and funds the Patient-Centered Outcomes Research Institute to disseminate the data.
    If those initiatives work, they head over to the Independent Payment Advisory Board (IPAB), which can implement cost-controlling reforms across Medicare without congressional approval — an effort to make continuous reform the default for Medicare, even if Congress is gridlocked or focused on other matters. And if they don’t work, then it’s up to the Center for Medicare and Medicaid Innovation, a funded body that will be continually testing payment and practice reforms, to keep searching and experimenting, and when it hits on successful ideas, handing them to the IPAB to implement throughout the system.
    The law also goes after bad and wasted care: It cuts payments to hospitals with high rates of re-admission, as that tends to signal care isn’t being delivered well, or isn’t being follow up on effectively. It cuts payments to hospitals for care related to infections caught in the hospitals. It develops new plans to help Medicare base its purchasing decisions on value, and new programs to help Medicaid move patients with chronic illnesses into systems that rely on the sort of maintenance-based care that’s been shown to successfully lower costs and improve outcomes.
    Keep in mind that the Congressional Budget Office made the very conservative decision not to assign savings to these measures, on the assumption that since they had never been tried before, there was no way of measuring how well they would work, so it gave them no financial savings value. And the Affordable Care Act also included a limit on the tax deduction for expensive health insurance, a powerful cost-saving tool that the CBO did score.
    But to zoom out for a second, what Klein’s identifying here is part of a larger phenomenon. It’s not just that the debate about health care costs seems to take place as if the ACA never happened. The entire political debate seems to take place as if the ACA never happened. …

    What happened? The details of the ACA’s cost-containment are wonky, and few people paid attention to them. Staunch liberals either didn’t care about cost containment, or devoted their energy to agitating for more sweeping alternatives. Moderate liberals supported the measure, but, taking their cue from policy wonks, took the very honest posture of conceding that some parts might not work as planned, and thus contributed to a massive asymmetry of passion. Centrists simply assumed that any deficit plan that wasn’t a grand bipartisan deal could not be a real deficit plan, since their fundamental premise is that a grand bipartisan deal is the only way to address the deficit. And the whole health care issue was sucked into the vortex of an unhinged debate, so that millions of conservatives understand the whole package as nothing more than an assault on freedom, with little or no grasp of the particulars.

    (emphasis added)

  • hippooath

    “Thank you, 53 and hippo, for making my point. It should be obvious to all just how narrow your perspective is.
    Anger and insults are a poor substitute for rational thought, but with the two of you, this is pretty much what one might expect. (based on past performance)
    Irrational, stubborn, inflexible and profoundly angry…what an unhappy state of denial you must live in.”
    .
    The only point was made by RDW and you; you guys don’t want to pay for America – you want America to provide you with unlimited opportunities where I should k!ss your @ss because (if you were) rich. You and RDW keep making the point that we think we’re smarter; the point is of course that we’re not smarter, just not ignorant.
    .
    If that’s the point you think we made for you you’re welcome – if it’s about us being mean then you’re completely blind to the torrent of pathetic insults thrown at us here. But that you’re completely blind to of course.
    .
    And I would make a rational argument with you if you first entertained the idea of rationality but most of it is a endless repeat of the 4-5 talking points circulating the ideologue drain.
    .
    Most profoundly that taxes is socialism. The easiest spotting ground if anyone is having a rational thought or not.

  • earljr1

    Careful there, 53, your psychotic rage can be highly detrimental to your health….you could literally “pop a cork”.
    You and your ilk remain in denial about the looming financial crisis and it is obvious you are prepared (with the other lemmings) to follow Barry right off the cliff.
    Fortunately, the majority of Americans (the 67% who think America is headed in the wrong direction) think otherwise and are prepared to do something about it. So clutch those entitlements a little longer, 53, because you are about to see some changes made.

  • earljr1

    Get real, third cell, blaming it on Bush does not cut it anymore. Your party held ABSOLUTE power for two years and what did you do? Nothing, squat…except to increase the debt a record two trillion dollars in just TWO years.
    That debt continues to mount by over two billion dollars EVERY day and your only defense? blame Bush…pretty pathetic, I would say.
    As stated previously, liberals live in a state of denial

  • 53_3

    earljr1:
    .
    The only argument you seem to have for all this is for you to brand my anger as psychotic.
    .
    And so I am going to ask you a couple questions, and we will see exactlywhat “psychosis” is extant:
    .
    1. You consider and have stated clearly in 29, this little gem:
    .
    “So clutch those entitlements a little longer, 53, because you are about to see some changes made.”
    .
    Now, I have said in the past that those “entitlements” are what my wife is depending on now, as our medical expenses have exceeded $700,000. Do you honestly think my wife should die?
    .
    I expect an answer, a CLEAR answer, to this question.
    .
    2. My total family income is $51,500. I’ve paid $3350 in taxes and $3520 in medical expenses last year. My taxes will be about the same, but with medical bills climbing, see above, there is no doubt I will pay much more. We are now at the limits of our income to support these kind of expenses,– and you want us to pay more so you can take home $55,000 dollars more next year under Ryan.
    .
    I expect a clear non-ideological justification for this!
    .
    3. Let’s see what apples look like when compared to apples:
    .
    What is your GROSS income? I told you mine. I expect you respond with a single amount, embellished by any ideological crap.
    .
    I already gave clear answers, earljr1. Answer these questions directly, and do NOT divert!
    .
    We will see just who is “psychotic”…

  • 53_3

    …$4520 inmedical expenses…

  • 53_3

    earljr1, Answer the questions laid in in 32.
    .
    That is all.

  • 53_3

    No, the GOP is to blame, not just Bush.
    .
    Look it up, earljr1…

  • 53_3

    There you go. Ryan has no chance, no chance at all, God be thankful.
    .
    Which leaves you to answer the questions I’ve laid out in 32.
    .
    Put your money where your mouth is…

  • http://2thirdsrocks.wordpress.com 2thirdsrocks

    What a beautiful sunday morning. But all these sad little stories, and anger and handwringing has just about brought me to tears. Oh those evil rich people, who would leave these poor sick people to die.
    .
    I say we tax them 100 percent! Trouble is, that will only work for 1 year cuz who would be dumb enough to stay in business knowing they would have to give up every penny they earn. Not to mention that taking every penny from every rich person will not even put a dent in the debt. But if we heal and comfort all the sick for a year I guess it will be better than nothing. We could at least say we tried.

    .
    In my world (the real world) lower taxes mean better times for all. Now I know all you “economists” out there with your long thought out formulas and links and graphs and polls will scoff and differ and ridicule, but remember, I’m talking about my world (the real world) now, not the medication induced crap that you guys hang onto for dear life. I harken back to a time when things were better, when everybody had a job (those who wanted to work and make their own way that is) and life was good. Those who couldn’t make do(I mean those who were ACTUALLY sick and infirmed) were taken care of by those who were more fortunate. No one told us we had to (except Jesus) we did it because we wanted to. And we had it to spare. The stain on our world that is liberalism, is making it harder and harder everyday to help those in need. In a nutshell liberalism kills! I’ve said for many years that liberalism is actually evil diguised as good, and it’s proven true more and more every day.
    .
    Okay I don’t want to give the impression that all those who call themselves liberal are evil. I have many liberal friends that are genuinely good people, just severely misguided and naieve. What’s wrong with wanting to help those who are sick or less fortunate? Nothing. Forcing it, that’s wrong. Winds up with huge numbers of “sick and unfortunate”, with nothing left for those who genuinely need it.
    .
    -53 I sympathize with your plight. That is , I sympathize with the plight that you describe, although we have no way of knowing that this is indeed you. I still suspect what I always have, that you are just a smart mouth little punk playing with mommy’s computer… but I digress…
    .
    If indeed this is your plight, or even the plight of someone else that you’re merely borrowing, then indeed your situation is most unfortunate. Trouble is, you’re geographic location is and always has been about as liberal as it gets, none more liberal than perhaps San Francisco. If liberalism is all you say it is, then you should be living in a virtual utopia. The trials and tribs you cite should be non existant. I strongly suspect that the opposite is true, and your neck of the woods is indeed proof of what I say and have been saying. Librulism dont work!
    .
    Conservatism works. Always has. It’s what made us the greatest country on earth plain and simple. Too many of our republicans have abandoned conservative principles, and it really has helped us into the mess that we are in. They have become liberal! They have done so to get your vote, but they forgot to take the R away from their name. You libs should be praising them just like you do the D’s, but that just shows your sheep like partisanship. You hate all R’s even the ones you haven’t even heard of yet. Step outside people, take a look around at the real world for once in your life.
    .
    Liberalism doesn’t work, never will! And yes, it kills. Hopes, dreams, dignity, aspirations and, human life!

  • earljr1

    You need to take up HRBlock on their offer to take a second look at your taxes, 53. Physicians are notoriously poor accountants, but some simple math tells me your tax liability should have been Zero
    I will not share my income level with you, but if I paid 174k in tax (after deductions) you can do your own calculations.
    If you had ANY understanding of the Ryan plan, then your hysterical ranting would be unnecessary.
    There are NO provisions to “pull the plug” on the chronically ill. As a physician, I would never support this measure.
    You should know, however, under Obamacare, the decision to continue treatment for your wife, will now rest with the Insurance company. Your physician will have little, if any, say so.
    I wish you (and her) well with that.

  • hippooath

    “What a beautiful sunday morning. But all these sad little stories, and anger and handwringing has just about brought me to tears. Oh those evil rich people, who would leave these poor sick people to die.
    .
    I say we tax them 100 percent! Trouble is, that will only work for 1 year cuz who would be dumb enough to stay in business knowing they would have to give up every penny they earn. Not to mention that taking every penny from every rich person will not even put a dent in the debt. But if we heal and comfort all the sick for a year I guess it will be better than nothing. We could at least say we tried.”
    .
    And here we go again with the special bus argument – it’s like clockwork with ideologues that can’t present one single argument for people paying for their part of the American dream.
    .
    1) Evil rich people. I don’t know if people are evil because they’re rich. I don’t think so. Greedy maybe and greed breed contempt for regular folks but evil? If you read the bible God and Jesus don’t really care that much about money and rich people. They don’t think they’re evil, just that they’re going to have a real hard time going anywhere upward.
    .
    2) Tax them 100 percent. It’s that stupid straw man. No one asks a rich person to pay 100 in taxes. We’re talking about sunsetting the Bush tax cuts. That’s about it. That would help balance the budget with real reform and cuts. It’s always some stupid special bus argument when it comes to taxes. Apparently taxing someone is either nothing and everything…it’s not something that can be adjusted so we balance the budget. Yours is of course not a argument. And when you run out of this stupid talking point you’re going to scream socialism like a tornado siren.

  • hippooath

    “If you had ANY understanding of the Ryan plan, then your hysterical ranting would be unnecessary.”
    .
    The Ryan plan doesn’t take a genius to understand. Austerity for old and sick and prosperity for rich and corporations. More money to military spending and unicorn magic to lower taxes and somehow pay down our entire deficit in a short period of time.

  • 53_3

    The fact that you won’t share your income level with me tells me everything I need to know, particularly since I don’t know who you are.
    .
    And, it is clearly this:
    .
    If anyone saw your income level, they would IMMEDIATELY know that I am right, and that you are not experiencing any real discomfort in paying these taxes.

  • formerlyjames

    earl, to say that what you paid in taxes allows calculation of your income demonstrates your ignorance of this whole topic and points of discussion. It also underlines your real concern, the bogieman liberal under your bed, and any criticism whatever of W. Bush, your hatred of Barry, all of your imagined slights to your insular world. You are truly not worth the time it takes to read your rants.

  • 53_3

    2/3rds:
    .
    Nice rant literally filled with assumptions, just one of which is “evil rich”.
    .
    For that, I refer you to my commentary at 16.3, point 1 about my attitude toward rich people.
    .
    I don’t consider them evil.
    .
    I would suggest that you look at my posts, all of them, before trying to sell your sh!t.

  • http://2thirdsrocks.wordpress.com 2thirdsrocks

    “The evil rich” is your moniker, not mine. Yours and B.O’s. Sunset the tax cuts all you want. It will just give the gubmint a few more dollars to blow, with nothing to show for it. If every nickel were applied to the debt it still wouldn’t scratch the surface, and you know the liberals have no meaningful cuts in mind. except maybe the defense budget, and that’s very unwise and won’t sell. We’ll let you be the one that tells the troops and their families that their paychecks are being cut/stopped.
    .
    Common sense dammit! Give it a try.

  • 53_3

    The HCICs have always had the last say on treatment.
    .
    Medicare provides the cushion against the costs not covered by HCICs and the actual cost to me, which was $4520.
    .
    It was EXACTLY the same as before, and Obama’s health care plan has nothing to do with it, except to relieve me of worries about hitting a cap or possible other expenses that would force me to make choices between bankruptcy and her death.
    .
    You are full of sh!t, earljr1, and you are no physician!

  • 53_3

    33.4, but this’ll do…

  • 53_3

    Bullsh!t 2/3rds.
    .
    Show me where I said that.
    .
    Let me make this very, very clear:
    .
    In no way will I accept a further burden placed upon us, at a time when our country needs the money to pay our debts, just so YOU can take home more money!
    .
    You got that? Loud and clear?

  • 53_3

    I see earljr1 and has completely evaded the three questions posed at 32.
    .
    It tells me that earljr1 knows he’s wrong, but the prospect of that extra $55,000 under Ryan is much more important to him.
    .
    Earljr1 is fully invested in Ryan…

  • earljr1

    I pay my taxes with no reservation, whatever, 53. I consider myself blessed to be in a position of responsibility and I am very grateful for the compensation I earn. You should also be cognizant of just who is paying these taxes…….

    a Chart showing the highly progressive U.S. tax system, where the top 10 percent of income earners paid 71% of federal income tax.
    http://www.heritage.org/budgetchartbook/top…

    I find your ranting incongruous, at best.

    Hippo, you made me laugh out loud with your reference to Unicorns. Imagine that, a bleeding heart liberal accusing a staunch conservative of Unicorn magic!

    Who said liberals lack a sense of humor.

  • earljr1

    Yes, indeed, 53…..for the salvation of our country!
    67% (some polls show it to be 72%) of Americans think this country is headed in the wrong direction.
    Gee, I wonder why?

  • http://2thirdsrocks.wordpress.com 2thirdsrocks

    Huh? Wh…? got what?
    .
    My takehome is a far cry from what you claim to make (notice I said claim) but I’m not the one whining. Still having trouble believing a diapered, cork on the fork special basement child can make any money at all but still…

  • formerlyjames

    Wrong direction? Funny, I would have joined that percentage (I suspect you took it out of your ass, but whatever), during the W Bush administration. I am decidedly more optimistic since he and his goons are gone, tempered by knowing that we have a fight at the walls with the right wing (Prince earl leading the charge) in their imagined “anti-socialist” crusade.

  • earljr1

    Get your head out of the sand, formerlyjames, I provided you with the link.
    The first battle was fought in November when even good old Barry admitted to ” taking a shellacking.”
    And yes, I WILL be among those trying to salvage our country from ham fisted management. The ineptitude of this administration will surely bankrupt us…it behooves all Americans to correct this wrong.
    Liberalism is NOT the answer to solving problems…it only exacerbates them.

  • earljr1
  • hippooath

    You: “Oh those evil rich people, who would leave these poor sick people to die.”
    .
    You: “The evil rich” is your moniker, not mine. Yours and B.O’s.”
    .
    Right.
    .
    “Sunset the tax cuts all you want. It will just give the gubmint a few more dollars to blow, with nothing to show for it. If every nickel were applied to the debt it still wouldn’t scratch the surface, and you know the liberals have no meaningful cuts in mind.”
    .
    Right. Unicorn dust then? Let’s not sunset the tax cuts because it’s not enough so don’t do anything but touch the 10 percent of the federal budget that no matter if you remove it all won’t put a dent in the deficit. Unicorn dust and fairy dreams perhaps?
    .
    “ except maybe the defense budget, and that’s very unwise and won’t sell. We’ll let you be the one that tells the troops and their families that their paychecks are being cut/stopped.”
    .
    Straw man. I’m sure liberals would love to stop the paychecks to the troops and not wasteful spending (sarcasm). Seriously? This is your argument? Don’t touch taxes because there’s no point and it’s unwise to trim the budget hog because that equals stopping paychecks to our fighting men? But NPR gotta go? Geez.
    .
    “Common sense dammit! Give it a try.”
    .
    Yeah – why don’t you.

  • hippooath

    “Liberalism is NOT the answer to solving problems…it only exacerbates them.”
    .
    Sounds like the same nonsense RDW, paulie and the lot blurts out when the argument falls into a pit. Kind of like yelling ‘SOCIALISM’ when someone paint themselves into a corner.

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