In the Arena

Is Libya All About Iran?

Cairo

Jeez, I certainly hope not. But David Sanger’s reporting today tells us that at least some in the White House saw it that way:

The mullahs in Tehran, noted Thomas E. Donilon, the national security adviser, were watching Mr. Obama’s every move in the Arab world. They would interpret a failure to back up his declaration that Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi had “lost the legitimacy to lead” as a sign of weakness — and perhaps as a signal that Mr. Obama was equally unwilling to back up his vow never to allow Iran to gain the ability to build a nuclear weapon.

“It shouldn’t be overstated that this was the deciding factor, or even a principal factor” in the decision to intervene in Libya, Benjamin J. Rhodes, a senior aide who joined in the meeting, said last week. But, he added, the effect on Iran was always included in the discussion.

That is truly embarrassing. We got ourselves mixed up in Libya because the President foolishly said that Gaddafi had to go and if Gaddafi didn’t go, we’d look weak to the Iranians? OK, as Ben Rhodes, insists, it probably wasn’t the “deciding factor,” but if it was any sort of factor, it’s…pathetic. If, in fact, Iran is any sort of factor in our Middle East thinking (as it should be), we should be paying a hell of a lot more attention to Syria, where Iran’s ally Bashar Assad is shooting people in the street, than we have been. Certainly, we should be paying more attention to Syria than to Libya. (Additionally, I’d add that if we have embarked on this Libya mission because the President said Gaddafi had to go, it was an even worse mistake for Obama to say it than I’d been thinking.)

All of this smacks of that old American “credibility” argument that is disproved again and again. As in: if we leave Vietnam, we’ll lose credibility in our struggle against the Soviet Union (actually, we lost credibility in our struggle against the Soviets by launching the foolish Vietnam war; we regained some strength by getting out). We’ve heard this argument over and over–in Iraq and Afghanistan, most recently. Of all the reasons to stay in both those benighted places, “credibility” is the least credible. Stability, in Mesopotamia and South Asia, is a far more plausible reason for staying, if you want to stay.

The Iran argument is desperation. I suspect that it’s been offered today because the other reasons for this escapade aren’t carrying enough weight. The “humanitarian” casus belli was real enough, but a flimsy reed when it comes to our real national interests (especially at a time when we’re overstretched militarily and financially, and should be focusing our diminishing foreign policy resources on really important places like Egypt and Pakistan). The “everyone wanted us to do it”–namely, the Arab League and the United Nations–conceit isn’t exactly supple, either. The idea that we go to war when the world wants us to do so is feckless in the extreme. We take military action only as a last resort, as the President used to say, and only when it affects our national interests. I hope we succeed quickly in Libya, and that whatever succeeds Gaddafi is better for the Libyan people, but I fear that this exercise has made it more difficult to tackle the next real crisis.

Despite what the Israelis say–and you hear some really crazy stuff about Ayatullah Khamenei when you’re in Israel–the Obama policy toward Iran has been succeeding. The economic sanctions have hit hard. The stuxnet virus is only the tip of an iceberg of sabotage and espionage being visited, brilliantly, upon the Iranians by Israel and the US. And even if Iran got a nuclear weapon–a terrible thing, to be sure–it probably would be no more of a threat to our national interests than the current North Korean program. Ineed, it probably wouldn’t even be much of a threat to Israel: the Iranians have never acted in a truly crazy way–like, say, Gaddafi; or even in as mindlessly bellicose a manner as Saddam Hussein. They have a real country, wealth on the ground, a beloved heritage to protect; the pain inflicted by the Iran-Iraq war remains real and raw, and a lesson far more compelling than this phony anti-zionism drummed up by the government (in a country that used to be, and could again be, Israel’s closest ally in the region).

The Iranians can make trouble. Their support of Hizballah and, to a lesser extent, Hamas, is a threat that Israelis have every right to deter and, when necessary, attack. The Saudis are worried about about the Shi’ite majorities in Bahrain and, closer to home, their Eastern Province, where most of the Saudi oil is located; those are not irrational fears, either. (But the Saudis are even more afraid that if their young people gather in the streets, the Obama Administration will join them.) There are also fears throughout the Sunni states in the region that when the US leaves Iraq, Iraq will tilt toward Iran–then again, Iranians killed exponentially larger numbers of Iraqis from 1981-88 than the US did this decade. Iraq is as Arab as it Shi’ite; Iran is as Persian as it is Muslim. Persians detest Arabs and vice versa, and have done so for at least a thousand years before the coming of Mohammed.

Iran is a problem. But in the universe of problems facing the US, I’d put it well behind the instability in nuclear-armed Pakistan. I’d even put it behind the need to support and nurture the Egyptian revolution. And, in the end, the question of whether Iran is gaining strength from the Arab Spring is a dubious one–the Sunni states may be weaker, but Iran stands on the wrong side of the democracy divide. It kills and tortures and imprisons and rapes its dissenters. I suspect that those who have taken to the streets throughout the region have less than zero sympathy for the Iranian regime. (The young Egyptians I’ve been speaking with the past few days consider Iran a laughably archaic place.) The young Egyptians, and others taking to the streets, may not like us all that much–since we’ve supported their oppressors–but they sure do like our ideas, especially the protesters under the age of 40, who represent a vast demographic bulge in the region. And that, in the end, puts us in very strong position against Iran–unless, of course, we blow it by continuing to impose our will through unwarranted violence in the region.

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  • sacredh

    “The young Egyptians, and others taking to the streets, may not like us all that much–since we’ve supported their oppressors–but they sure do like our ideas”

    Isn’t that at the crux of our own problems? We’ve become more of an idea than an actuality. We say one thing but then do another. We treat our own people like sh!t. Maybe other people see us as we really are and not how we pretend to be. We pay lip service to the ideals that made this country great but the reality is far different. I think other countries want to have what we represent and not what we are.

  • allthingsinaname

    You can more take Iran out of the equation than you can Israel, Egypt, Syria, Yemen, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Iraq. Are you just looking for something to complain about?
    .
    I know you are opposed to the action taken in Libya, but anything we do, or do not do affects the ME, and beyond into all the Stans.

  • freeinpa

    “We say one thing but then do another.”
    .
    What you are saying is the government causes more problems here and overseas for Americans an dyet the left wants more of that mistake.

  • sacredh

    No. I’m not saying that at all. We’re a nation run by special interests and they are calling the shots. We elect people that are in turn bought off by corporate interests that substitute their own interests for the interests of the people. Both the right and the left are pawns. Nothing more. We fight over the crumbs while the corporations get the pie.

  • lreed580

    How do you go from Iran “not a deciding factor or even a principal factor” as per Rhodes, to “Is Libya all about Iran”?

    Nick Kristof has an excellent article in the NYTimes today. Juan Cole has written extensively on the intervention in Libya. I suggest Mr. Klein, you read the articles written by those 2 experts on the ME. Tom Ricks last week also endorsed the intervention. I actually believe the primary reason for intervention was to present a massacre.

  • http://alextorkaman.wordpress.com alextorkaman

    I do not know who’s interest you serve by miss representing the facts, perhaps Israel, like many in U.S.
    you write “-then again, Iranians killed exponentially larger numbers of Iraqis from 1981-88 than the US did this decade. Iraq is as Arab as it Shi’ite; Iran is as Persian as it is Muslim. Persians detest Arabs and vice versa, and have done so for at least a thousand years before the coming of Mohammed.”
    For one thing Iraq invaded Iran Fact Iranians were defending their land fact, like Palestinians are fact. Israel is the invaded fact.
    In the other hand You invaded Iraq with no justification, except helping Israeli and murdered
    countless civilians just like your master Israel in the invasion of Lebanon and Gaza

    Persians do not detest Arabs Fact. you and Israel propaganda try to make them believing in that and it will fail fact

  • fbarkeshli

    I found this article very interesting.Iran and Libya were at odds in recent years due to Imam Mousa Sadr’s disapearance whose blame is apparantly on Ghadafi.Libya help Iran militarily and politically during Iran-Iraq war of 1080-88.When war ended problems between the two countries surfaced.It was not all about Mousa Sadr but mostly a leadership rivelery between them in Africa and the Middle East.Now Iran is begining to support Libya against the US and Europe in order to repay its past debts to Ghadafi.On the hand,the authorities in Iran say that Libya gave up its decision to go nuclear back in 2002 in order to compromise and end to US/UN sanctions,but at the United States did not spare Ghadafi and opted for his removal from power.As such Iran should not even think of a compromise to end sanctions.

  • geo1671

    Humbug! Wait a minute here,we should be concerned about Syria killings???? How about Israel’s killings/straving/abusing/torturing of Arabs–day after day..Oh Oh! I forgot how about USA troops/Politicians ordering/bombing/killing/Torturing muslims–that did no harm to Uncle Scam’s obtuse children??
    Has times forgotten of the roll CIA is doing in the middle east–stirring the pot???? Shame on Times for not being candid,who is the biggest terrorist state!

  • http://peterjonesmessiah.wordpress.com carlodj

    US has seized Iran in a triangle. Baghdad (gift of god in ancient Iranian language), Baghram (tamed by god in ancient Iranian language), Baghrain (island of god in ancient Iranian language). Bagh or Bah means god in ancient Iranian. I am a scholar. That only attracted me to this political issue. Hence Iranians should be annoyed somehow by this coincidence.
    Carlo

  • 53_3

    No. It’s all about Libya.

  • shepherdwong

    I thought its was all about oil. I guess it depends on who you ask.
    .
    The “everyone wanted us to do it”–namely, the Arab League and the United Nations–conceit isn’t exactly supple, either. The idea that we go to war when the world wants us to do so is feckless in the extreme. We take military action only as a last resort, as the President used to say, and only when it affects our national interests.
    .
    So if the entire world – you left out our NATO/European allies – wants us to take military action, ostensibly to prevent a humanitarian disaster, you don’t think it’s in our “national interests” to do so? And what, exactly, are we not “paying attention” to in Syria and what “diminishing foreign policy resources” are not being spent on Egypt and Pakistan as a result of our actions in Libya? Has it occurred to you that if US policy is successful at helping the Libyan rebels overthrow Gaddafi and establish even a nominally more representative government, that might actually increase our “diminishing foreign policy resources,” throughout the region?

  • freeinpa

    “bought off by corporate interests”
    .
    And you think its limited to corporate interests? Check out the list of those offered waivers to the demanded HC law. Why its the ones yelling the loudest for it: UAW, SEIU, AARP. Hardly corporate interest. Oh yeah, they also got money to pay for current costs. And the list of these go on. Believing that there are only corporate interests being served is just the liberal practice of lying to yourself.

  • http://quinterius.wordpress.com quinterius

    Much of what Mr. Klein says makes perfect sense. In particular, his comment that “to attack Libya not to look weak against Iran is preposterous,” is right on the mark. However, his claim that, “the Obama policy toward Iran has been succeeding,” is completely false. Iran’s economy is progressing by leaps and bounds. Its stock market is booming and Goldman Sachs just came out with a report saying that Iran will be the world 12th largest economy by 2015. By 2025, along with Vietnam, it predicts that Iran could be like Germany or Japan in the 20th century. So, don’t believe all the self-congratulatory boasts from the US administration. Iran is doing quite well, thank you, despite all the sanctions.

  • http://shortplaysaboutrealpeople.wordpress.com Michael Maiello

    I don’t have any reason to believe that this latest war is for anything other than what Obama said it was for. That said, this is still an important critique of our policy. Joe is really articulating the war opponent side here very well.

  • formerlyjames

    This is an interesting and wide ranging post, but what especially struck me was the mention of perception of lost ability to lead and lost credibility as support of war actions.
    .
    Those motivations should be limited to elementary school play grounds and drunken biker bars, not in rational foreign policy. But…guess what prevails in our foreign policy? Mr. Klein stated it nicely.

  • sacredh

    “And you think its limited to corporate interests?”
    .
    No I don’t. I also said:
    “We’re a nation run by special interests and they are calling the shots.”
    .
    I believe I made it clear that special interests and corporate interests weren’t the same thing. The corporate lobbyists have more power because they control the real money.
    .
    “Believing that there are only corporate interests being served is just the liberal practice of lying to yourself.”
    .
    I think that believing that serving only corporate interests somehow translates into the benefit of the public is a conservative practice of lying to themselves.
    .
    I think you’re interpreting my words to fit what you believe, not what I believe.

  • GivenUp

    Obligatory grammar/spelling nazism, “prevent” :D

  • sacredh

    “Both the right and the left are pawns.”
    .
    That seems pretty clear to me that whether we’re talikng about special interests or corporate interests, the end result is the same. Both liberals and conservatives are being used.
    .
    I recognize that I’m getting used. Do you?

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    I happen to think that the mental machinery that drives schoolyard antics and the one that drives Statecraft happen to be identical. Thats why watching Statecraft play out so often resembles a slow-moving train-wreck. You can see clear as day what is happening but remain powerless to stop it.

  • formerlyjames

    PD, agree, but we both besmirch slightly the elementary school mentality to make the point.

  • sacredh

    It seems to me that our foreign policy is a mess (as it usually is) because we try to cover too many bases and the end result is that none of them gets covered.

  • apr2563

    sacredh: You are putting it very well. People like freeper are getting duped by the plutocrats that are willfully destroying the American middle class.
    .
    Below is the history of the real Boston Tea Party.
    .
    “Multinational corporations were controlling the people, and the government was supporting the corporations. In particular, the East India Company sparked rebellion, since they were given so many exemptions, tax preferences and other breaks by the British government.” Sound familiar.
    .

  • apr2563

    Joe Klein dramatically reports the “ifs”!

  • http://jcapan.wordpress.com jcapan

    “Has it occurred to you that if US policy is successful at helping the Libyan rebels overthrow Gaddafi and establish even a nominally more representative government, that might actually increase our “diminishing foreign policy resources,” throughout the region?”
    .
    Holy Wolfowitz Batman.

    According to John Kampfner, “Emboldened by their experience in Afghanistan, they saw the opportunity to root out hostile regimes in the Middle East and to implant very American interpretations of democracy and free markets, from Iraq to Iran and Saudi Arabia. Wolfowitz epitomised this view.” Wolfowitz “saw a liberated Iraq as both paradigm and linchpin for future interventions.”
    Wiki

  • http://jcapan.wordpress.com jcapan

    And OT, but PNNTO is lurking about somewhere … Go O’s!!!!!!

  • sacredh

    apr2563, I know that AARP, the UAW and SEIU have their own agendas and put their own interests #1 with their members coming in second. However, I also feel that they know that it is in their long term interests to provide some benefit to their members so that they continue to remain in the game. You’d have to have fallen off the turnip truck not to be aware of that. But as long as I am seeing some benefit, I’m going to support them.
    .
    I quit my own union over 15 years ago because they were putting far too much emphasis on “getting along” with management rather than working for the best interests of labor. Of course they got along with management. They caved in on everything except crap management would have given us anyway. I didn’t give a flying f**k that they went on golf outings with management or had a joint labor/union picnic.
    .
    They weren’t going to continue getting $20 from me every two weeks to kiss management’s ass. We have one union member at our installation now. The steward. When we found out they spent more on the 4th of July and Christmas parties than they did on lawyers fighting for us, we bailed en masse. If I have a problem, I go to my congressman.

  • sacredh

    apr2563, if you want to hear something weird, the last time I did have a problem at work, my boss (management) fought harder for me than the union ever did. I’m lucky. My boss is a really good guy and if you do what you’re supposed to do and put out a little extra effort, the guy has your back.

  • paulejb

    quinterius@11,
    .
    “Iran is doing quite well, thank you…”
    .
    Except for the occasional murders of protesters and in the case of women protester, rape and murder. Other than that Iran is jut dandy.

  • paulejb

    Joe Klein,
    .
    How about we just repeat Gen Omar Bradley’s statement that we are engaged in “The wrong war, at the wrong place, at the wrong time?”

  • paulejb

    Joe Klein,
    .
    Another bit of advice from that past may also be useful for Barack the Reluctant. He should heed the Emperor Napoleon who warned that “When you set out to take Vienna. Take Vienna.”

  • paulejb

    Joe Klein,
    .
    And Von Clausewitz had a word of advice for Barack Obama. “It is even better to act quickly and err than to hesitate until the time of action is passed.”

  • Paul-no not that one

    I only came on just now to see if you were about, JC.
    .
    My brother and I were just praising that pitching!
    .
    Also, if you have the MLB At Bat radio (for a whopping $14.95 for the year) all the TV games are free for April.
    .
    Make your students watch with you.

  • freeinpa

    “I believe I made it clear that special interests and corporate interests weren’t the same thing. The corporate lobbyists have more power because they control the real money.”
    .
    No I don;t believe you made that clear. And the pont of corporate lobbyists have more power and control the real money is a fabrication of the left to deflect the reality of the special interests of the left buying power. Unions have spent far more money and have been given far more gifts in the past 2 years than any corporate interest.

  • Art Pepper

    they sure do like our ideas

    What ideas would those be?

    I’m hard pressed to think of any principle that the United States stands for today, unless “robber baron capitalism” is a principle.

  • paulejb

    Art Pepper@19,
    .
    Well, they are probably not too crazy about same sex marriage, abortion on demand, Madonna or the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue.
    .
    I am not quite sure why we should care what they think of our ideas? Shouldn’t they be worried about what we think of their ideas?

  • apr2563

    sacredh: I just know the history of life for workers pre-union and after union. After is better. If unions need cleaning up, members should do it.
    .
    My dad was a member of the Plumber’s and Pipefitter’s Union. He attended every union meeting and worked not only for worker’s rights but to reform his union. Dave Beck had a house in Seattle. Dad would drive by his manse and tell us how Beck got the house on the back of union members.
    .
    But, he really remembered worker status before and after unions. Look at any third world country where workers are being exploited by corporations (American and otherwise) and you will see the pre-union lives of American labor.
    .
    Monday is the anniversary of Martin Luther King’s assasination. People seem to forget he was in Memphis to support public service employees who were on strike.

  • formerlyjames

    paulejb, no they don’t care anymore about our ideas than we do theirs. Yours I am not sure of. Same sex marriage (I am in favor), abortion on demand (I am neutral), Madonna (I am opposed), Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue (I am amused).
    .
    So…what is your point?

  • http://jcapan.wordpress.com jcapan

    WBAL works for me Paul. And with Uehara and several other J-players in the AL, I get to see the O’s fairly often here. It used to be all Mariners all the time but now they spread it around quite a bit. This should mean, with Nishioka, that I’ll see a fair bit of the Twins this year as he’s the latest rage here, as far as Dai-rigu fandom goes.
    .
    Shaky start for him, obviously, but he’ll get it together.

  • http://jcapan.wordpress.com jcapan

    “So…what is your point?”

    To engage commenters at his tediously banal level.

  • paulejb

    formerlyjames@19.2,
    .
    It’s simple, james. It is not one big happy world sharing all the same values. Some people in this world hate us and want to see us dead simply because of our ideas.
    .
    I am hoping that Barack Obama gets over that naive leftist world view and begins to recognize reality.

  • Paul-no not that one

    “To engage commenters at his tediously banal level.”
    .
    From. Day. One.

  • http://jcapan.wordpress.com jcapan

    Apr, exactly. The village has such a skewed (intentionally, of course) view of MLK’s legacy.
    .
    Per Joe’s post, this springs to mind:
    .
    http://thinkprogress.org/2006/01/16/martin-luther-king-jr-anti-war-activist/

  • Paul-no not that one

    My concern about Nishioka is zero.
    .
    The Canadian first baseman screwed up a pick-off on Friday and Nishioka took responsibility. Beyond refreshing.
    .
    And I love his swing.

  • pelhamite1

    This quote is from Omar Bradley’s testimony before the Congress on the foolishness of extending the Korean conflict into mainland China (which MacArthur wanted to do). The year was 1951. The question was whether to take on the most populous nation on Earth six years after the most devasating watr the world had ever seen. Whereas the Libyan action was a highly limited intervention whose prime purpose, berlieve it or not, was simply to ensure that Qaddafi’s forces did not enter Benghazi and Tobruk and massacre thousands of cilians. One action would have cost tens of thousands of American lives. The Libyan intervention )so far, than god) has not cost an American life yet). so you’re history is as false and fractured and, dare I say it, phony as your logic.

  • pelhamite1

    Cute quote – and certainly Napoleon was military genius of a sort. But please note that a few years later, once he was dealing not with the desiccated Austrian empire but the rather more cohesive Russian Empire; when he, in effect, revised his little maxim to “When you set out to take Moscow, take Moscow”, it resulted in one of the greatest debacles in the history of military warfare. Although esitmates vary about just how large Napoleon’s invading army actually was, I tend to believe the estimate of roughly 680,000, of whom there were probably 90,000 survivors. We have better numbers of the French portion of the Russian invading force – 350,000 Frenchmen crossed the Nieman going into Russia and roughly 35,000 came, a loss of 90% of his force.

    Just sayin’ that these maxims do not always work out, even for those who utter them. And maybe Obama understnds the situation a little better than you do.

  • pelhamite1

    Uh, sometimes yes sometimes no. In 1863, at Gettysburg, Robert E. Lee came pretty close to leading his army to ruin by trying to exploit what he thought was an opportunity, whereas had he withdrawn and set his army between the Union Army and Washington, forcinmg the Unio tro attack him (as Longstreet wanted to do), he probably would caused a disastrous battle for the North.

    .

    A few years later, a fellow named Custer acted precipitously, without proper precautions, with disastrous consequences (for him). In war, one does not always get the opportunity to learn from one’s mistakes.

    .

    Many years later, the US Army’s careless attitude at Ia Drang, particularly its heartbraking decision to walk the 7th Cavalry thorugh enemy territory to a second landing zone, led to the greatest loss of American life in a single battle in that conflict.

    .

    Even more recently, the accidental shooting of 9 innocent Afghan boys who were gathering wood by NATO air forces has set our campaign to win the hearts and minds of the Afghan population back by, like, a year. In Asia and Africa, we are actually operating in a theater where avoiding a mistake is more important than ever. Myself, I do not love every aspect of the way that Obama has handled the Libyan rebellion either, but it should be recognized that this is a tremendously complex, dangerous situation with no easy answers, and the simplistic exhortations of the Fox News machine, which wants, after all, not to save lives or even advance our national interest, but to score cheap political points agsinst the President, is almost certainly the wrong thing to do.

  • shepherdwong

    I know, Obama is just like Bush.

  • formerlyjames

    paulejb I’m hip to the world not loving us and the hate and dead part. I just don’t follow the Obama part of your message. I think you have Obama thoughts that I can’t grasp and don’t understand.

  • pelhamite1

    Myself, I am little puzzled as to why my Red Sox decided to spot the O’s a three game lead to begin the season, but hey, if it leads to a few exciting months at Camden Yards before the roof falls in, fine with me. . .

    Back in ’94, I had the distinct pleasure of sailing into Baltimore harbor (friend’s boat, I was just “crewing”), tying up, going to an Orioles game and sailing out again. One of the cooler things I’ve ever done . . and Camden Yards is still probably the best of the “new Tradition” ball parks. . .

  • liberalmeltdown

    Media is the Numero Uno export of the United States. Videos, movies, music complete with all that Hollywood and the decadent pop culture has to offer. You think the Mullahs dig it man?

  • liberalmeltdown

    Obama’s actions are very similar to Jimmy Carter. Support Palestine, not Israel. Support leaders that aren’t our friends and abandon those that are.
    .
    And Joe Klein, “I hope we succeed quickly in Libya, and that whatever succeeds Gaddafi is better for the Libyan people, but I fear that this exercise has made it more difficult to tackle the next real crisis.”
    .
    We aren’t there to remove Gaddafi, at least that is the official word. What makes you think that anything will succeed him? Maybe his son, or something worse than the Mad Man of N. Africa, will rise to the top. We have shown no real desire for the last 30 years to remove or replace Gaddafi.
    .
    Prediction: We won’t do anything about the next real crisis, Iran. At least not until after the 2012 election of a new president.

  • rwbbinla

    @3.2.. McDonalds, Walmart! You do understand that a waiver is just a one year extension, don’t you? It may take some time to negociate contracts with private insurance providers.
    .
    @3.8.. “Unions have spent far more money and have been given far more gifts in the past 2 years than any corporate interest.” What a crock! I guess you are discounting the financial bailouts of wall street bankers since it was more than 2 years ago ( by a couple of months).

  • liberalmeltdown

    These comments were made before the Middle East really blew up. Seems that Obama is following right down the path of looking like Jimmy Carter II and may yet screw things up worse by supporting people like the Muslim Brotherhood, and acting only after the blessings of the Arab League.
    .
    If the Arab League doesn’t approve we won’t act in our best interests?
    .
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704129204575505822147816104.html
    .
    Foreign policy experts are also picking up on similarities. Walter Russell Mead, then a fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, told the Economist magazine earlier this year that Mr. Obama is “avoiding the worst mistakes that plagued Carter.” But he warns that presidents like Mr. Obama who emphasize “human rights” can fall prey to the temptation of picking on weak countries while ignoring more dire human rights issues in powerful countries (Russia, China, Iran). Over time that can “hollow out an administration’s credibility and make a president look weak.” Mr. Mead warned that Mr. Obama’s foreign policy “to some degree makes him dependent on people who wish neither him nor America well. This doesn’t have to end badly and I hope that it doesn’t—but it’s not an ideal position after one’s first year in power.”

  • pintortwo

    What ideas would those be?
    .
    I think what Joe is talking about is the Egyptians’, and Muslims in general, admiration for many governing principals here in the US. For instance:
    .
    When asked what they admire most about the West, citizens of Muslim countries ranked technology first and liberty and democracy second. They expressed widespread admiration for the freedom of expression and assembly, rule of law, and government accountability they see in the West. -link

  • sacredh

    “Unions have spent far more money and have been given far more gifts in the past 2 years than any corporate interest.”
    .
    Any links to back up that claim?

  • liberalmeltdown

    “What ideas would those be?”

    We the people. It’s still the only thing that makes the US different than all the other hellholes of the world where the government bypasses the middle man (your robber barons) and tyrants rule like they have since governments were created.
    .
    Our government feeds your so-called robber barons and they turn around and feed the creatures that inhabit the Swamp of Washington. Each party has it’s special feed ingredients $.

  • paulejb

    pelhamite1@16.1,
    .
    So, how is that “highly limited intervention” going, pelhamite? Things look rosy to you?

  • paulejb

    pelhamite@17.1,
    .
    I am not sure what Obama understands, are you? He is treating this Libya intervention like a hot potato. He is passing it off as quickly as possible. .
    .
    It would seem that if it was worth doing at all, it was worth doing right.

  • paulejb

    pelhamite@18.1,
    .
    Lee’s strategy worked well in drawing Union forces out of Virginia. His tactics would have worked but for two reasons, the normally reliable Jeb Stuart let him down and his right arm the Mighty Stonewall was gone.
    .
    George Armstrong Custer was an arrogant fool who let his pride lead him to a defeat and the slaughter of his forces.
    .
    The Ia Drang Valley was not a defeat for the US Army. North Vietnamese and Viet Cong casualties were immensely higher than those of the US Army.
    .
    There are numerous cases in history where failure to act promptly lead to defeat or failure. The German treaty violation of re-occupying the Rhineland militarily, Munich 1938, and Osama bin Laden’s declaration of war on the USA in 1998.

  • paulejb

    formerlyjames@19.6,
    .
    Barack Obama seems not to grasp the reality that you do. Citizen of the World Barack Obama believes that words, especially his words, will make a difference. They will not.

  • formerlyjames

    Truly bizarre comments. You no doubt subscribe to the Pat Robertson Foreign Policy Journal.

  • pintortwo

    The Iran argument is desperation. I suspect that it’s been offered today because the other reasons for this escapade aren’t carrying enough weight. The “humanitarian” casus belli was real enough, but a flimsy reed when it comes to our real national interests
    .
    I think this is the most insightful part of JK’s post. When evaluating the decision to get involved in Libya, we need to concentrate on what those “national interests” might be.
    .
    I think Egypt is one of those interests. We don’t know what the future holds there, and that has to be very uncomfortable for the brass. It is crucial for us to recognize that Egypt has Israel on its eastern border, Libya on its west and the Suez Canal in between. We’ve spent tens-of-billions spanning decades to arm and placate the despicable Mubarak. It is not unreasonable to expect that we’re trying to gain geo-strategic leverage over Egypt via an enduring military presence in Libya.
    .
    Next, Libya has significant oil reserves– no need to get into that here.
    .
    Lastly, I think the admin and Pentagon are trying to set a precedent. The neocons (going as far back as the Clinton era), the policy makers and Long War disciples of the Bush admin, and current Pentagon members all spoke of the need for the US military to be able to fight multiple small wars simultaneously– with Libya we’ve essentially announced that we have the right to apply our military wherever we want, regardless of whether or not that country has attacked us or can threaten us in any way.. so long as it supports our “national interests”.

  • pintortwo

    The notion that Muslim peoples hate us and want to attack us “for our freedoms”– or Hollywood, gay acceptance, drinking, lifestyle, etc– is preposterous. It’s a media-fabricated theme to get us to believe that a clash of cultures is inevitable and we should just accept the occupations.
    .
    Sure, many things that are commonplace here are not acceptable in Muslim nations. But so what?
    .
    They “hate us” when they pull the bodies of family members and neighbors out of rubble caused by missiles bearing Made in the USA- whether they were fired by us, Israel, Yemen, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, etc.
    .
    The article I linked to above says this:
    .
    “(M)ilitant extremism is created not by Islamic principles but by political orientation. In nearly every suicide bombing attack from 1980 to 2004, the primary motive was to overthrow foreign occupation, not further religious views.”

  • anon76

    Even if he does have stats (which I doubt), he’s cherry-picking the two years of the great recession. I wonder who’s contributed more over, say, the last 10 or 20 years?

  • michaelfury
  • http://alanmirsblog.wordpress.com alanmirs

    Arabs are in Saudi Arabia (Madaen) near Baghdad was the Persian Empire’s capital at the time Islam took over and Baghdad is a Persian word the other Arabic speaking countries are not Arabs

  • nhautamaki

    As an elementary school teacher I have noted with equal parts bemusement and despair just how much international politics plays out like arguments between 8 year olds.
    .
    ‘He started it!’ ‘No, he did!’ ‘He stole my eraser!’ ‘Well he broke my pencil!’ ‘It’s not your pencil it’s my pencil!’ ‘Nuh uh! It’s my pencil I found it first!’ ‘No you dint! I found it last week’ ‘Well you lost it again and it’s mine now!’ ‘That’s it you’re gonna get it!’
    vs
    ‘They started it!’ ‘No, they did!’ ‘They’re blowing up our buses!’ ‘Well they stole our land!’ ‘It’s not your land we were here first!’ ‘No you weren’t you left ages ago!’ ‘Well we want it back!’ ‘Well you can’t have it!’ ‘Oh yeah, our F-15′s and M1A2 tanks say we can!’
    .
    Equally frustrating to watch, whether it’s 8 year olds in my classroom, or nations of people.

  • http://alanmirsblog.wordpress.com alanmirs

    I also have to clear the fact that Saddam Hussein and also the kings in all kingdoms and dictators in the area where and are American puppets

  • http://quinterius.wordpress.com quinterius

    To paulejb: I think you are confusing Iran with some other countries in the region. No protesters in Iran were shot by the police recently. Iranian security forces as a rule do not fire weapons at crowds since they know that it will be counter-productive. I believe a couple of individuals died in recent demonstrations. But there is no evidence that the police shot them. Have you heard of the operations of the terrorist organization MEK in Iran? In contrast, over 400 people were murdered in cold blood in Egypt and no one raises a sound in the US that government henchmen are shooting at people from rooftops in Yemen and Bahrain. The US still still fully supports these autocratic governments.

    As far as the rape of women demonstrators are concerned, please provide a reference for any recent event. There was one rogue prison immediately after the last presidential election, where some individuals were tortured and even killed. Authorities close it immediately when the facts came out. Twelve officials were arrested and two were executed recently. In contrast, what has the US done to the torturers in Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo and rendition programs? Also, what about the violent police response to demonstrators during the Pittsburgh G-20 conference in 2009? What about the regular police beatings of blacks in the US? What about over 300,000 rapes per year in US prisons where almost 1% of the population is incarcerated?

  • rdw56

    The notion that Muslim peoples hate us and want to attack us “for our freedoms”– or Hollywood, gay acceptance, drinking, lifestyle, etc– is preposterous.

    **************************************

    It’s not preposterous, it’s dead on. It is a simplification, a metaphor, yet still true. What they hate is our success and all those things that contribute to it such as our openness and the fact we are a nation of laws and not of men. List all of the innovations of the last 50, 100, 500 years and the names are never Arab or Muslim or Russian or Chinese. This is a huge embarrassment and it should be.

    Just consider this for a minute. There are 4x’s as many muslims as Americans. How advanced would our world be if there were 4x’s as many technological/medical advances to match?

    I would have to think when you look at all of the advancements and the lack of support from the Muslim world it’s got to be humiliating. How could it not be?

  • rdw56

    with Libya we’ve essentially announced that we have the right to apply our military wherever we want, regardless of whether or not that country has attacked us or can threaten us in any way.. so long as it supports our “national interests

    *************************************************

    What were Korea and Vietnam? Gernada? Panama, Bosnia, Cuba? Phillipines? The list is actually quite long. None of these nations attacked us or threatened us. There isn’t anything new about Libya in terms of legality or policy. There is much to debate in terms of intelligent decision making.

  • rdw56

    current Pentagon members all spoke of the need for the US military to be able to fight multiple small wars simultaneously–

    ************************************

    This is precisely the transformation Bush sought and achieved. This is why he appointed rummy and then why he replaced him with Gates. Rummy was the visionary and Gates the bureaucrat. How interesting that Petraeus came of age under Rummy but Gates his coronation was finalized under Gates. We understood the shrewd pick of Gates when he fired the Secretary of the Air Force and the Air Force Chief of staff for delaying on drones against Petraeus’s wishes. The fact is Obama was able to give the order because he had the capability because of Bush.

    Think about it. When you look back at the military-industrial complex ‘scare’ of the 60′s generation and then flash forward to 2011 we won a huge victory. We revel in our smart missiles and drone wolfpacks and military excellence. I think just yesterday one of the Ivy Leagues voted to allow ROTC back. Today there is an interview of Rummy explaining the Iraqi and Afghanistan invasions were so quick because for the 1st time both were led by special forces units. The US military has as a percentage of total forces the highest level ever and this doesn’t even include snipers an other specially trained lethal actors.

    We switched to a professional military in 1970 and since then have developed it into a true science. The Powell Doctrine was a product of the Vietnam era. It was a preventative doctrine. Petraeus could not be more different. His doctrine is aggressive killing. We win when we slaughter the enemy.

    The bottom line is the US has become far more proficient at killing while protecting the home forces and it has much to do with our defense suppliers.

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