Afghan Massacre

About four posts back I said:
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“…[W]ho’s crazier: The “preacher” or the murderers?
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“It’s a tie.”

Yeah, but the really scary thing is this – if Joe’s description is accurate, these weren’t “radicals”.
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But they DO serve as a demonstration that our actions and words DO have consequences beyond our immediate intent.
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OUR actions under the banner of what WE think is OUR freedom to act as WE wish aren’t always viewed in the way WE would like them to be.
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We better learn that the world at large doesn’t respond to Western actions with a Western mindset.
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But that’s what we keep expecting and demanding.

just…
…i don’t even…
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sickening.

Odd that the emphasis of this story is on a pointless political gesture and not on the slaughter of 12 innocents by adherents of the “Religion of Peace.”

Jones is odious, no doubt about that. He should be locked up in a sanitorium with the rest of the nut jobs. But why are we blaming him for the murders of 12 people. His actions didn’t help, but 12 people were brutally killed today over the THREAT of burning a book. Why is there no question as to the craziness of those that use death as a response to the THREAT of the burning of a sacred text?

This was not a protest, this was not a demonstration. This was murder, plain and simple. The nut job Jones threatened to burn the Koran 6-7 months ago. Why did it take so long for this response? Why do we lay the blame for the response at Jones feet for threatening to burn a book (bear in mind, he didn’t actually do it)? I propose that these murders and brutal killings were going to happen anyways, and that Terry Jones is being used as a scape goat.

nflfoghorn@1,
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Not even close, foghorn. Not even in the same galaxy.
There is no comparison between a infantile political gesture and the consequences of religious blood lust.
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Rev Terry Jones may well be a cretin, but he is not a savage butcher.

bostonian2307,
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Here, here, bostonian. You are right, but the moral equivalency crowd is running amok.

afguy@1.1,
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Is everything our fault, afguy? Does no one else in the world have responsibility for their own actions? Do you infantalize every one who is not an American.

Just to make it absolutely clear. I still think that Terry Jones is a loon and do not in anyway support the burning of a koran or other text that is held sacred but the multitude of religions in this world. The fact that such a man considers himself a man of God is at least laughable, and incredibly dangerous at the most. I just think that there are better ways to discuss our religious differences than burning texts or killing people.

But in regards to what he was saying “I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it”

“But there should be no confusion about this: Jones’s act was murderous as any suicide bomber’s.”

That is as racist a statement as I have seen in a mainstream publication. Mr. Klein’s low expectations for Muslims is rather breathtaking. He actually believes these people so base that he expects even a moronic westerner like Jones to have known better than to burn a book that would OBVIOUSLY incite mass murder of people that had nothing to do with the idiotic act.

I doubt Mr. Klein would find a person burning the holy book of the Buddhist, Hindu, Jew or Christian religions to be equally guilty of a subsequent atrocity by a member of the aggrieved faith, as he does in the Muslim case. This is a clear example of western bigotry towards Islam.

We need to legalize dueling again and let Jones and the other religious idiots go at it fair and square. Gasoline bombs are allowed, no holds barred. Maybe it would rid us of religion. Fat chance.

The Reverend Jones did burn a Koran on March 20, 2011.

Your thoughts hadn’t really occurred to me, but now I think I will go buy a bible, a koran, and a torah,any other holy book I may find, spit on them, pour gasoline, and light a match. Thanks for the suggestion.

Bostonian, roughly two weeks ago (on Sun, Mar 20), Terry Jones did burn the Koran. He put it on ‘trial’, and with 30 people in attendance, he burned it.

Actions have consequences.

On second thought, I don’t need to pay for a bible. They hand them out free.

And I am sure that Mr. Klein will not hold you responsible for murder if some Christians beheads 12 atheists in Europe because of your act. That’s the difference.

I will only state that he lives in America, where you have the right to slur people you don’t know, cuss out politicians, protest at soldiers’ funerals, etc., and it’s all constitutionally protected.
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But you have the responsibility to do what’s right.
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Jones didn’t do that.
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Zealous people took it as an affront because they don’t live in a place where all this crazy talk is tolerated by the government.
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Dead serious, Paulie – if you can’t see the cause and effect, you’re more than just politically blind.

paulejb, the fact that you even *try* to defend this negates any worth you might have had. YOU didn’t do this, but Terry Jones sure as h@ll did. Just don’t post about this if you have a decent bone.

cdrwayne@4.2 & warrengee@4.3,
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Well, that makes all the difference. That must make the murders justifiable, right?

Do you people think that the last time this loon threatened this there wasn’t solid information that this kind of thing would happen? That is exactly why national figures *from all areas* talked to him. He knew bloody well what would happen.

formerlyjames@6.1,
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If you do, it is unlikely that Christians and Jews will go out on a murderous rampage, but I wouldn’t count on the Muslims to react well.

Paul

I was correcting Boston. That said, why are you projecting your biases on me.

I can and will form my own opinions and do not need or want your help.

formerlyjames@7,
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The problem with your idea is that both sides would enjoy it too much.

I stand corrected then. I didn’t know that he had burned a Koran. That changes my belief that Jones is a scape goat, but I still believe that he’s not more to blame for these murders than the people who actually committed them. That being said, He’s a (explicative deleted) idiot.

Burning a book is still never a justification for brutal murder regardless of what that book says or how sacred it is.

nflfoghorn@1.4,
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Your attempt to ascribe moral equivalence to the two situations is inane and morally bankrupt.

chupkar@1.5,
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Get you eyes checked, skippy. No where in my comments will you find a defense of Rev Terry Jones’ actions. As I said, he may be a cretin, but he is not a savage butcher.

cdrwayne@4.5,
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Than your correction was frivolous. It shed no new light on the situation.

…and did it anyway.
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“Tried and convicted” a book of which he has little or no understanding.
Come to think of it, I don’t think he has much understanding of the Bible either.

“Warren tries to stay out of the political spotlight and he is to be admired for that.”

Joe, Before you make generalized statements, I wish you would check the facts. He conducted an interview on CNN before 2008 election to help voters determine whether McCain and Obama were morally, religiously worthy.
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Two weeks before the 2008 U.S. general election, Warren issued a statement to his congregation endorsing California Proposition 8, which would amend the California Constitution to say “only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California,” thereby eliminating the right of same-sex couples to marry.

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I would be a “revelation” if evangelicals had been speaking up all along regarding the bigotry against Muslims and taking politicians to task for exploiting it.
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Theocrats of all persuassions are potentially dangerous.
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First they came for the Muslims…..

The “International Judge the Qur’an Day,” a six-hour event, was held March 20, according to church-affiliated websites.On its websites, the church “accused” the Koran of “inciting murder, rape and terrorist activities.” “If we are proven wrong, we will issue a PUBLIC APOLOGY,” a press release before the event said. “Otherwise if the Koran is found guilty, it will be ‘executed’ in one of the following ways, chosen by an International Poll: 1) Burning 2) Drowning 3) Shredding or 4) Firing squad.”

A subsequent press release, issued March 22, announced that the Koran was “found guilty and a copy was burned inside the building.”
The pastor of the Church and the Mullah of the Mosque equally responsible for this heinous crime of killing more than 20 innocent human beings. Our SC must take a note of this event and think twice before allowing hate crimes as no crime but rule that “it is a crime against HUMANITY” and the guilty must be punished accordingly.

Here is a theocrat as dangerous as Terry Jones and the Muslim radicals, James Inhofe (tea party favorite) and his evangelical cohorts:
. http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2011/03/30/ivory_coast_christian_right_gbagbo/index.html
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Why the Christian right is backing a brutal despot
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The west African nation of Ivory Coast has been in turmoil ever since incumbent leader Laurent Gbagbo refused to step down after losing an internationally certified election in late November. As forces loyal to Gbagbo have killed civilians and been accused of crimes against humanity, and as the number of refugees from the country has ballooned to as many as 1 million, observers have described the situation as worse than the Libyan conflict.
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While the crisis has gotten substantial press attention, one aspect of Gbagbo’s past — and present — has flown under the radar: his longtime ties to the Christian right in the United States, a movement in which he still finds at least some support.
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That includes a U.S. senator and acquaintance of Gbagbo who declined to intervene in the crisis when asked by the State Department earlier this year, a former congressman who was hired by Gbagbo as a lobbyist, and a Christian right TV network that ran a fawning profile of Gbagbo, even as violence engulfed Ivory Coast. The senator, Jim Inhofe of Oklahoma, today released a letter to Hillary Clinton calling for new elections in Ivory Coast, putting him in direct opposition to the view of the Obama administration, the United Nations and the African Union that Gbagbo lost a fair election.
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Both Gbagbos have attended the National Prayer Breakfast, a big annual Washington event run by the secretive Christian group known as the Family, or the Fellowship.
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Chief among Gbagbo’s American supporters is Inhofe, who is the most influential Republican in the Senate when it comes to African affairs. Inhofe has been traveling to Africa regularly since the late 1990s and, while the trips are paid for by the taxpayer and typically involve some official business, the senator also engages in missionary work. He has been to Ivory Coast nine times and knows Gbagbo personally. That’s why, early on in the post-election crisis, when the State Department was frantically looking for intermediaries to reach out to Gbagbo to try to convince him to leave the country peacefully, the Obama administration asked Inhofe to talk to Gbagbo. But, according to a source familiar with the situation, Inhofe declined to do so.

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Not surprising that Gbagbo lost to a Muslim causing the Inhofe, Robertson, evangelical wrath.

No, the Pastor of the Church is just a fool, but not a murderer. This is America where if you buy it, you can burn it. This includes burning an American flag, a bible, a torah and even a koran.

Is everything our fault, afguy? Does no one else in the world have responsibility for their own actions? Do you infantalize every one who is not an American.
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Is NOTHING our fault with you, paulie?
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Even in our own laws there is a provision for something called negligence, and it goes beyond simple poor decision-making, like you assume Jones is guility of. It has to do with taking an action that, if you had thought about it, you should have seen the potential for harm.
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It’s windy outside right now, paulie. I have the freedom to go outside on my own property and light a fire at any time… unless it’s dry and a ban has been declared.
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Then it’s illegal and I can be cited. Because, under dry, windy conditions, that fire I am free to set usually can blow elsewhere and burn down a neighbor’s property. If that happens, I can be held liable.
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Jones set a fire under windy conditions on his own property. It’s not that he didn’t foresee the results of his actions – I don’t think he cared because, like in YOUR viewpoint, HE didn’t kill those soldiers so HE is not liable for ANY part of what happened. This is, after all, all about HIS freedom to do what HE wants to do.
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paulie, you are so blindly closed-minded that I don’t think you would recognize a truly moral argument if it hit you between the eyes.
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Yours is a purely legalistic viewpoint. He’s culpable in the deaths if and only if it can be proved he directly instigated it. That’s a Mafia boss’ defense… I didn’t kill that man myself… I was on vacation. I merely suggested it would be better if he was gone. I didn’t give any order.
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I doubt you’d see a problem burning anything any time you saw fit. Nor would you see any problem with yelling fire in a crowded theatre – because it’s their own damned fault for allowing themselves to be panicked – and THEY are responsible for their own actions, NOT you.
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You’ve already shown your colors in the past by blaming the victims of errant missile strikes or collateral damage for not being smart enough to move out of the area.
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Translation: we are exceptional – it’s ALWAYS SOMEONE ELSE’s fault for OUR mistakes.
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When it comes down to it, Jones (and you) wil be answerable for your own actions and attitudes before the Almighty or with your own conscience (at least what passes for one).
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Hope chanting “USA! USA! We’re Number 1!” at the Judgment works for you… but I doubt it.

Nothing like applying American legal reasoning to events that happened in a foreign country and expecting it to make perfect sense on an emotional level to THEM.
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What could go wrong there?

@Pellam,

Couldn’t agree more with your comment. it’s refreshing to see some common sense around here!

I’ll just repost my slogan and leave to others to try to assess who’s needs to hear it the loudest.
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The number of Creators of The Universe is somewhere between zero and one. At some point we’re all going to have to learn to share……….
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http://phd9.blogspot.com/

Yeah, Protestants and Catholics have been absolute angels in Northern Ireland for a couple of centuries now.
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It’s only those Mooslims that react with such fervor whenever religious differences are involved.

paulie, what’s “political” about burning another religion’s text?
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We have some of the most hateful “political” speech on the planet but have minimized it to the point that NOTHING said from a “political” viewpoint is subject to any sort of libel or slander laws.
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Does framing what Jones did as a “political” act rather than a “religious” act make it somehow a little more palatable and excusable?
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Do the Afghans consider the burning “political” rather than “religious”… or is that simply how YOU want them to see it, so we can wash Jones’ hands of any responsilbity for what happened?

“If there is a hell, he’s just guaranteed himself an afterlifetime membership.”
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He should share a circle with the clerics who ginned-up the riot. Vultures of a feather…

Agreed. ALL had an axe to grind here…

He burned it in America and had the right to burn it in America. Moreover, he is in no way responsible for the decisions of other to take innocent life in a most brutal way because the murderers were pissed off at him. The murderers are 100% responsible for these crimes and the loony pastor is, in fact, blameless. I, for one, will hold those Muslims to a standard where murder is despicable. To expect otherwise is racist.

Right. Only the hit-man is to blame. Never the Don.
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Blowing Godwin’s to bits, as far as I know, the only person Hitler personally killed was himself. I guess you’d hold him “blameless”.

Let me understand you, then. If a synagogue was desecrated by Catholic boys in California, you would find mitigating circumstance if some Jewish kids killed a priest and 10 other Catholics in New York to exact revenge. That is exactly what you are saying.

No, it’s not.

Just a little tip. Moral analogies are fraught with confounding variables. Especially dangerous if you don’t understand morality.

Nothing like mere conclusions and platitudes. Double standards are the antithesis of morality.

Terry Jones really ought to be considered a dangerous enemy of America if his antics are really the cause of this vicious incident. Is it the UK that has regulations barring people deemed “offensive” or potentially “extreme” from entering the country? Sounds good right about now…
http://www.sunstateactivist.org

I was just reading the accounts of the riot where the people were killed. There were also a number of people in the crowd protesting that were killed and wounded. Some of the people who have been arrested for starting this, (And there were arrests by Afghan police of people suspected of being the ringleaders and agitators), were from areas outside that community and from areas known to still have strong taliban presence. So to just blame Afghans or Muslims is also without any moral standing. That does not excuse anyone who did it of course, but there were clearly people from radical groups wanting to use the Koran burning as an excuse to kill.

As to Jones, he is the equivalent of the guy who yells fire in a crowded room and starts a panic where people are killed and injured in the panic. Worse, he knew what the consequences of his actions could bring and did it anyway. As a matter of fact, I think a case could be made that this was exactly what he wanted, for people to die. I have no qualms with equating Jones to a murderer.

The whack job morons’ whack job moron Joe Klein blames the murders of a dozen people in Afghanistan on someone who is half the world away and had nothing to do with the murders!

Does anyone from the sane community doubt that Joe Klein is the biggest idiot in history?

Who does Klein blame for the bombing of the Pentagon conducted by Obama’s dear friend William “Everything was absolutely ideal on the day I bombed the Pentagon. The sky was blue. The birds were singing. And the bastards were finally going to get what was coming to them” Ayers? Captain Kangaroo?

Double standards are the antithesis of morality.
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So are legalisms where an act is deemed to be wrong or right simply by matter of WHERE it was done, NOT because of its results.
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Jones didn’t have to do what he did as part of his practice of HIS religion. He chose to do that to make a point. His point cost lives. What he did was morally shabby but NOT, according to our laws, illegal.
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But morality isn’t about location or nationality or the ability to find legal cover, is it?
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What THEY did is morally outrageous as well. But moral responsibility for what happened isn’t a “zero sum” game as some here are trying to make it.
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There’s PLENTY to go around.

I guess if someone died in violent events following the burning the American flag you would consider the flag burner to be a murderer too.That is a position the most reactionary elements of the US right wing have put forward and it is wrong. A liberal approach does not blame the person expressing themselves in an offensive but non-threatening way, but the person who lashes out in violence as a reaction to it.

No one is defending the loon on morality grounds. But, he is still 100% innocent of murder.

Look up the term “strawman”, pellam, and acquaint yourself with its meaning.
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NO ONE has called Jones a murderer.
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Negligent, yes. Unconcerned about any effects his act might have – most definitely.
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He yelled “fire” without any concern for its effects. But he’s not guilty of any violation of US law.
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Morally, though, he’s got things he’s going to have to answer for at some point. Preacher or not.
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Or, more accurately, ESPECIALLY BECAUSE he calls himself a preacher.

Two points that are being missed.
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The first is that in this day and age nothing is “half a world away” anymore. There isn’t an invisible barrier around America that lets world events in but doesn’t let domestic events out. “What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas” doesn’t apply to America as a whole.
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Secondly, lest we forget, we are discussing a war zone where like it or not WE are the outsiders.

None of this is to say that murder isn’t murder. Arguing over ‘blame’ at this stage is just stupid. But pretending that being ‘the sole Superpower” means that the world is our possession to do with as we see fit and ignoring the fact that not everyone sees it that way is significantly more destructive than anyone’s particular choice of Holy Book.

Careful, pellam.
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Legally, the guys that stood at the back of a mob and instigated a lynching were ALSO 100% innocent of murder, because they didn’t place the rope around the neck themselves.
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You’re being legalistic again.
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Lots of people who hired someone to do the deed so they could keep their hands clean were found guilty. It’s just harder to prove. Doesn’t make them less morally involved.

That IS the point, isn’t it?

afguy,

Mr. Klein called him a murderer:

“But there should be no confusion about this: Jones’s act was murderous as any suicide bomber’s.”

It is that at which I am bristling. It is expecting and accepting a lower standard of behavior from Muslims that for others. It is a dangerous form of bigotry.

As for yelling fire, what he did is no different than flag burning: a moronic and offensive act that must be protected as free speech in the USA. He burned the Koran in the USA, and as moronic and offensive that is, it must be protected. As in the flag burning situation, if violence follows the event, the perpetrators of the violence are 100% responsible, not the flag burner.

Consistency must be absolute. Otherwise we are no different than those lawless lands.

“Legally, the guys that stood at the back of a mob and instigated a lynching were ALSO 100% innocent of murder, because they didn’t place the rope around the neck themselves.”

Sorry afguy, but that guy IS guilty of murder. If he is in the mob while instigating the murder, he is part are the crime.

Balance…….

http://networkedblogs.com/g9yJg

Also worth remembering…..
http://www.theonion.com/articles/god-angrily-clarifies-dont-kill-rule,222/

“Consistency must be absolute.”
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Both morality and the law make accommodations for such things as intentions and circumstance, which should include culture. American Muslims are not rioting, they are praying.

A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds….
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– Ralph Waldo Emerson

Thank for the links Paul.
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Theocrats from most religions have been the source of so much death and destruction for millenia. Clergy and political leaders exploit the weaknesses of their followers to gain more power.
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I prefer peaceful secularism.
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Jones is quoted in a NYTimes article: “That actually burned quite well.” The church apparently held a mock trial to determine what means would be used to destroy the Koran. They also streamed the event. Jones is now demanding that the U.S. and U.N. take immediate action against Muslim nations in retaliation. Nothing like adding fuel to the fire on his part.

Not to in any way defend what happened in Afghanistan, but I try to look at this through their eyes. They’re one of the poorest nations on earth…..when you have known nothing but war and live in poverty, your religion for some becomes the only stabilizing factor in their life. It holds a much more prominent role than does religion for many here in the U.S. So when it’s seen as being desecrated by another country/religion the impact is much greater. I consider myself a humanist, so this is conjecture in some respects.

Unfortunately I think his actions may spawn more acts of retaliation.

,iBut there should be no confusion about this: Jones’s act was murderous as any suicide bomber.

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Right.

He is responsible for what they did, just like you are responsible for me posting in this thread.
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You really should stop writing stupid things like this. It makes me lash out.
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Some other leftist, loony “reporter” should speak up against you and tell you to stop saying such inflammatory things.

Without consistency there is no equal protection and there is selective prosecution. Just ask the black folks who got pulled over on the New Jersey Turnpike for infractions white people got a pass on. Justice must be blind to be fair.

Joe
You miss the real issue, which is that we have done a dismally poor job of winning over the Afghan people. Our aid had been and continues to be mismanaged; the killing of civilians has not stopped (airstrikes are way up); our diplomats continue to sit in their bubble embassy instead of being out with the people (oh, they cannot do that because they do not speak Pashto or Dari or Nuristani etc). Despite years of negative IG reports, nothing ever changes (what happened to change you can believe in) and no one is ever held responsible. This massacre is a symptom of countless failures – with no one in the Administration seemingly having a clue that there even is a problem.
Matthew Nasuti
Reporter – Kabul Press

Mazar i sharif is ruled by non fanatic Uzbeks who are related to people in Uzbekistan.How do we know outside hand is not involved in this matter.If it was Taliban whole of Afghanistan would have been on fire..

As for yelling fire, what he did is no different than flag burning: a moronic and offensive act that must be protected as free speech in the USA. He burned the Koran in the USA, and as moronic and offensive that is, it must be protected.
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Interesting. We just went through a period in which ANY adverse comment against the war itself was judged as to whether or not it “put the troops at risk”, no matter where and what was said.
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Now we have an actual event that contributed to the loss of lives and it now “must be protected” because it was uttered within the confines of the USA. Amazing the logical shapes we can twist ourselves into when needed.
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Two quotes come to mind. One religious and one secular:
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I Corinthians 6:12 – “All things are lawful for me; but not all things are expedient. All things are lawful for me; but I will not be brought under the power of any.”
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The last is one of my favorite lines from “Jurrasic Park”, adapted: “Yeah, but your scientists citizens were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn’t stop to think if they should.”
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I guess the REAL test comes when we see what happens now. I’m going to give him the benefit of the doubt that Jones didn’t see this coming.
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He’s seen that Law of Unintended Consequences up close now. If he decides that he needs another of these little “1st Amendment” stunts, his free speech trumps all other concerns. If he demurrs on other similar events, then stupidity here is his defense. To this point, though, I’m not encouraged by what he’s said and done.
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There ARE times that we need to keep our mouths shut, whether or not we can blame anyone else for the consequences of our actions or not.

Not to in any way defend what happened in Afghanistan, but I try to look at this through their eyes.
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We have lost the ability (or desire, maybe?) to see ANYTHING ELSE in the world through anyone else’s eyes but our own.
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If it’s legal here, then, by God, it should be OK everywhere. Our responsibility for OUR words stops at OUR borders. Internet and mass communications be d*mned.

afguy,

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you. If you are saying Jones is a bad guy and a fool, and possibly even immoral, but legally protected, then we are in agreement.

If you are saying that he should be subjected to some form of American government legal sanctions, then we are not in agreement.

Which is it?

“Rev Terry Jones may well be a cretin, but he is not a savage butcher.”
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Oh I don’t know let us ask God about that. Something about what is in a mans heart. I think he hates, there is no love there.

If someone encourages another to murder, aren’t they considered morally culpable?
Evangelicals must condemn Terry Jones. Politicians must stop exploiting the anger at Muslims. And, Muslims must loudly condemn the revenge killings.
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And, we must get the h*ll out of Afghanistan.
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FYI: Al Jazeera is reporting that the US and Egypt are training the opposition inside Libya.

Jones is a self-absorbed moron whose speech is protected in this country. So “yes to 1″…
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The Home Office in GB refused entry there essentially because “we don’t need your kind here”.
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Guess they thought that his U.S. right to sound and behave like an a$$hole didn’t extend to them, although, IIRC, he thought it should.
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“I’m not against Muslims, we are not against their religion,” he said.
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“The idea isn’t to cause trouble or kick up a stink. These things do need addressing and people do need to speak about them. We shouldn’t be frightened about them.”

afgay,

I kind of thought we were saying the same thing.

“Just ask the black folks who got pulled over on the New Jersey Turnpike for infractions white people got a pass on.”
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Running hard and fast from your moral consistency problem with that silly analogy. Again, is the despot who orders his soldiers to murder “blameless”? Is the person who hires another to murder also “blameless”? How about the robber who’s partner pulls the trigger? Someone who simply eggs on another to kill? Any blame there?
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Your “morality” seems clear but it is far too simplistic for actual human motives and actions.

We are.
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What I’d like to hear a LOT more of is the equivalent of “yes, you have the right to say it, now get the h*ll away from me, you immoral jerk – you’re disgusting”.
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I think we’d be a lot better served in our relations to the rest of the world if THAT was the message they heard. PUBLIC condemnation of the message itself while we defend the right to utter it. There’s been precious little of that.
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What they hear too often is “We’re in America! Free speech! Free Speech!” and then silence. No remorse for the collateral damage; no apologies. What they get is “We’re Americans! We don’t aploogize to nobody!”
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And we wonder WHY our noble claims of morality and principle seem to fall more and more on deaf ears over there.

Why should America apologize for the act on one mentally ill person? Nobody on this thread thinks Jones is anything more than a sick moron. Why should American feel any collective guilt?

The bottom line is that no matter how you slice it, Jones is not the one who murdered those people. The only ones with blood on their hands are the Islamists who, I have no doubt, were looking for a reason to kill and torture. The murders were not committed in the name of religion, they were done in the name of sadism and perversion. Jones merely gave them the excuse to let the evil flow. Evil that resided in those people well before their horrific act.

afguy@1.8,
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You are being willfully obtuse, afguy. My point is that no matter how egregiously stupid Jone’s actions were, they do not justify murder and mayhem.
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It is time to call out all Muslims on the actions of their co-religionists. Christians, Hindus and Jews are not going to drive Islamic extremists from the midst of the greater Muslim population. Only Muslims can do that, and they are making no effort to do so. It is time that they face the evil being perpetrated in the name of their God.

afguy@3.1,
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Jones was making a political statement with his stunt, not a religious one. He was attempting to earn his 15 minutes of fame or perhaps infamy.
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The crazed Mullahs who used this incident to stir up blood lust are evil. Rev Terry Jones is merely stupid.

afguy@6.6,
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Why don’t you bring in Nero and Attila the Hun also, afguy?
Anything to excuse savagery from the adherents of the “Religion of Peace.”

Evil doesn’t need an excuse to flow, no more is Islam responsible for Jones’ act of hatred.
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Evil also resides in Jones.
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They both condemn themselves, and I think that is the point of this whole thread.

But burning a book is a far less evil act than taking life. Jones is 100% responsible for burning the book. The murderers are 100% responsible for the murders.

Joe Klein’s attempt to declare Jones somehow responsible for those murders is disgusting and racist against Muslims.

No butts, Jones intent was to incite, you, me, Americans, Christians, Muslims, Nut cases, his loyal band, who ever, where ever, he succeeded.
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The whole world is to blame, that is the teaching of the Church.
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Why do you want to make an excuse for the man, God isn’t.

Because, paulie, Nero and Atilla the Hun were not religious figures.
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And Jones was NOT making a “political” statement simply because you want him to be able to hide behind that term. He burned a “religious” text. He didn’t burn a copy of their Constitiution or civil code.
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Rest easy. There’s nothing for him to be charged with. But that’s your whole point, isn’t it?
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Legally clean = morally clean. I’d like to see a little more condemnation rather than just calling the act stupid.
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You’ve made stronger claims here simply because we hurt your feelings. And no one got killed because of that.
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Feel like you’re required to protect another tribe member?

Wow.what stupid fuc?wads here. Over 100,ooo comments on yahoo and not one compares to the idiocy of libtards here. Actually blaming someone else for murders. I hope no one else in other countries read this because I would be extremely embarrassed. Losers here are more mad at burning then butchering..truly disgusting. I know it’s an extreme liberal website when even other liberal sites blame the actual murderers .

Thank you for your profound insight and excellent commentary.

ilikechips,

The extreme right understands violence in reaction to flag burning and the extreme left understands violence in response to Koran burning. Both extremes believe that violence is a natural outgrowth of vulgar actions and therefore find exaggerated fault with the jerk conducting the vulgar act.

Extremists left and extremists on the right are closer than either would like to admit.

ilikechips,

The extreme right understands violence in reaction to flag burning and the extreme left understands violence in response to Koran burning. Both extremes believe that violence is a natural outgrowth of vulgar actions and therefore find exaggerated fault with the jerk conducting the vulgar act.

Extremists on the left and extremists on the right are closer than either would like to admit.

In response to allthingsinana, I am hardly making excuses for the man by saying he is in no way responsible for murder. I have consistently said he is a bad guy, a jerk and an idiot. But saying he is not responsible for murder is hardly controversial.

Allthings, the idiocy of your statements are astounding..truly. U are probably a 21 year old tree hugger from berkely I am thinking..go to bed and stop embarrassing yourself.

Look Jones was warned what would happen. He was warned by the US Government, he was literally begged not to do it. He was counseled by other church leaders. You, I, The Left, the Right all knew what would happen. yet he did it anyway.
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Would you taunt an insane man? What is the difference here? Was the reaction of those who murdered the reaction of reason? No? Would a reasonable man continue with an act, without any real purpose, knowing the out come would result in death? No?
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I am right back where I started I can not excuse any one of them. Jones wanted them to do it, he dared them to do it, he might as well have done it himself, he wanted it done. He just didn’t have the guts to do it himself. He is a weak pathetic excuse for a man. I am sure we can agree with that. He is not deserving of any support.

Yea right. Thanks again for your contribution.

“Jones’s act was as murderous as any suicide bombers”? What about the Danish cartoonist, or Salman Rushdie, or anyone else who ruffled Islamist feathers, does Klein also see them as the equivalent of suicide bombers? That is ridiculous.

Is every over-the-top over-reaction to a real or unintended slight the fault of the perpetrator of the slight? No.

The pastor of the church is not “equally responsible” for the murders. He is not responsible at all. He expressed negative views about Islam. He didn’t instigate or carry out murder.

Right. Let’s start expelling and barring from the U.S. anyone who says or does anything that is offensive to rabid Islamists. Maybe you could ask the Taliban to write out guidelines of who should and shouldn’t be admitted to the U.S. , based on what might offend them. Man up, Matt.

awww, “American legal reasoning doesn’t make emotional sense to radical Islamists,” well that’s a good reason to go out and slaughter people- they were emotionally upset, what else could they do?

And then let’s talk about the heinous crimes of the Christian right, otherwise, we might be considered Islamophobic to dwell on 20 little murders by Islamists without cataloguing the past sins of other groups.

It’s an insult to the innocent dead in the Afghan U.N. attack for you to apologize and excuse their murderers and use their deaths as another opportunity to climb on your multiculti soapbox.

pellam- you are speaking to the Left here, and they become very foggy on First Amendment rights as applied to right wing Christian fundamentalists like Terry Jones. Somehow the concept of universal rights eludes the Left unless it pertains to those they admire and agree with.

Allthings, what you don’t get is that there are many innocent actions that will bring punishment of violence or death from Islamist law..whatever is not in accordance with their beliefs. We cannot let their violent reactions have a chilling effect on our speech or actions. Writers and artists should not have to go into hiding to protect their lives from fatwahs issued over their statements that didn’t toe the Islamist belief line.

Did I say anything about restricting his speech? Did I say anything about charging him?
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What I have been saying is that from a moral point of view he is guilty. I could care less about the legal aspects, for the most part I do not think legal is always moral.
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For one example that I am sure you can ID with is that Abortion, while legal, is certainly not always moral, and in some circles is never moral.
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I am not arguing the morality of Islam or for that matter of Christianity, but perhaps the morality of sects within, or who claim to be Christian, or Muslim.
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I think what you are arguing is your justification for your continued hatred, or fear of Muslims, not the act of Jones’.

Where do you see me excusing the insanity and evil of the killings in Afghanistan? What I am condemning is the use of theocracy to promote death.
As I write this 1000s are being killed on the Ivory Coast due to exploited religious differences. I find this immoral. Do you not?

Jones is saying he feels real bad for the deaths in Afghanistan. He doesn’t regret burning the Koran. He is not discounting doing it again. If this isn’t a psychotic need for attention, what is?
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He is taking his protest to Dearborn, Michigan. His reasoning:
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“This protest was formed by a few concerned citizens that want to ban ‘foreign law, legal code, or system’ meaning any law, rule, legal code, or system of jurisdiction outside of any state or territory of the United States.’ We are protesting global jihad caused by our Middle East policy, and wish to expose some Israeli/Palestinian lies that we feel need to be approached…to move forward.”
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Does this sound familiar to some Repulicans?

shepherdwong,
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“Running hard and fast from your moral consistency problem with that silly analogy.”

Not at all, I was quite clear.

“Again, is the despot who orders his soldiers to murder ‘blameless’?”

No, he is a murderer.

“Is the person who hires another to murder also ‘blameless? ”

No, her is a murderer

“How about the robber who’s partner pulls the trigger?”

He is a murderer

“Someone who simply eggs on another to kill? Any blame there?”

Need more facts, but almost certainly guilty of a crime.
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“Your “morality” seems clear but it is far too simplistic for actual human motives and actions.”

Not at all, shepherdwong. You have a confused moral compass. Moreover, you know absolutely nothing about the law.

scribe,

What I find amazing is that people who support the right to burn the American flag in public believe that burning the Koran should be somehow prohibited and vica versa. Neither the extreme left nor the extreme right truly believe in freedom of expression.

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Just for clarification, burning a Koran on the sidewalk in front of a Muslim family’s home, or burning a cross right off the property of a black family fall in a different category, as that is direct harassment.

Like Mao and Stalin?

““Again, is the despot who orders his soldiers to murder ‘blameless’?”
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No, he is a murderer.
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“Is the person who hires another to murder also ‘blameless? ”
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No, her is a murderer
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“How about the robber who’s partner pulls the trigger?”
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He is a murderer
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Then, to you, mere words and actions designed to instigate murder are the equivalent of murder. So if Jones intending his words and actions to instigate murder…
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Intentions matter, my friend, morally and also in the law. And though Jones may not be legally guilty of murder he’s still guilty as hell.

shephardwong,
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“Then, to you, mere words and actions designed to instigate murder are the equivalent of murder. So if Jones intending his words and actions to instigate murder…”
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Unlike the example you gave, Jones never ordered those murders nor was he acting in concert with the murderers. That is a HUGE difference. Even if he said I am going to burn the Koran with the hope that some Muslims behead some UN workers he still would be only morally responsible for being a jerk and bigot.
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“Intentions matter, my friend, morally and also in the law. And though Jones may not be legally guilty of murder he’s still guilty as hell.”

Of being an a-hole. But he should feel zero guilt for the murders.

afguy@6.8,
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The Rev Terry Jones is as much about religion as was Madeline Murray O’Hair. Both of their actions were stunts meant to get themselves in the news.
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Only an idiot would give Jones any credence as a religious figure. He has a congregation smaller than a football team. They could hold services in a phone booth.
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You want to give this guy way more credit than he deserves, afguy. Why is that?

rdw: At any point were Paul and I defending Mao and Stalin? We are pointing to one source of war and violence. Please stop the “so’s your old man” method of debate.

If someone knows their actions will cause death, then I sure hope they feel guilt. Only psychopaths goes ahead and do what they do even if they know that there will be a reaction.
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Only Psychopats feel absolutely no remorse and no guilt having instigated slaughter.
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I see a lot of splitting hair here. A lot of ‘technicalities’ in regards to morality.
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Technically he’s not guilty of anything except burning a book. But he knew what the reaction would be when he did it. He was hoping for it.
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Lets say there’s a pit of starving wolves. All you do is open the door and let the village idiot into the pit. You know what’s going to happen, yet you didn’t do anything. You’re not guilty of the slaughter, it just happens so that the wolves are starving and you opened the door.
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This guy isn’t a grand @sshole. @ssholes are people who steal someones parking space or slams a door in your face.
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This guy is a psychopath. No less then the murderers.
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Some are capable of murdering people for reason only sane people find incomprehensible, then there are psychopaths who gladly set things in motion because there’s a means to an end.
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He have of course not done anything ‘wrong’ legally. He’s not going to jail for this – but there’s a spot in a warm place for a person like this. Right next to the murderers.

“Lets say there’s a pit of starving wolves. All you do is open the door and let the village idiot into the pit. You know what’s going to happen, yet you didn’t do anything. You’re not guilty of the slaughter, it just happens so that the wolves are starving and you opened the door.”

That is the problem those who wish to have the murderers share blame.

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Muslims are not wolves, they are people and must be held to the same standard we in the west hold for each other. I am tired of all this leftist bigotry.

I believe that if you give in an admit that Jones owns some responsibility, that you also will have to admit some responsibility on other things. That is you will have to change your philosophy on life. Your moral code, and this is something you are unwilling, or afraid to do.
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So keep marching around the rim.

Interesting philosophical discussion here. I like it.
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Let’s get some things straight before we proceed:
Nobody disputes that the radicals who actually physically committed the murders are guilty of murder. Nor is anybody confusing those murderers with all muslims.
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The question here is whether and to what degree Terry Jones faces responsibility for their murders.
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I see it like this: Burning the Koran or any other book or inanimate object that you legally purchased and own is entirely within your legal rights to freedom of expression in America. Legally speaking, it’s the same as crossing the street.
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At the same time, the murderers warned everyone, and Terry Jones knew perfectly well, that they would riot and kill people if he burned the Koran. This is a death threat made and carried out by murderers, we can all agree upon that and condemn them.
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However, knowing that the murderers would kill if he burned the Koran, Terry Jones went ahead and did it anyways. You are willing to condemn Terry Jones for stupidity, and presumably you wouldn’t do the same thing yourself (stage a public burning of the Koran knowing that it will incite riot and death). Why stupidity? It’s not that Terry Jones was incapable of putting 2 and 2 together. It’s not that he didn’t know what would happen. It’s not that he accidentally burned the Koran. He knowingly and purposefully did an action that directly lead to killing. Sure it’s a legally protected action in the USA, but does that reduce his moral culpability? Sure the murderers are guilty of murder and we all agree upon that, but does that reduce his moral culpability?
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If a psychopath with a gun to your daughter’s head says he’ll kill her if I burn a copy of Harry Potter and I say ‘To hell with you, it’s my legal right to burn Harry Potter if I want to!’ and go ahead and burn it, and he kills your daughter, do you shrug your shoulders and say ‘Oh well, it’s within nhautamaki’s rights to burn a book if he wants to, I mean sure it was stupid, but it’s not his fault that a psychopath had a gun to my daughter’s head and really loved Harry Potter’ ?
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The bottom line is that Terry Jones could have done 10 million things besides burn a Koran and nobody would have died. But he decided his right to make a point that cost innocent people their lives was more important than anything else. Would you be so forgiving if his choices cost YOUR loved ones their lives?

This is pure idiocy. The knee jerk urge to blame this guy for these murders is insane. And repulsive. And idiotic. And on and on and on.

Mr. Klein, you’ve lost any respect I ever had for you.

Time Magazine, I see you are racing Newsweek for the bottom of the crap heap.

What I refuse to do is have an American’s free speech jeopardized, no matter how vulgar, because some perverts threaten violence when if such speech is exercised. Burning the Koran was a moronic thing to do, but it was Jones’ ABSOLUTE right to burn it if that is what he wanted to do.

American officials warning him not to do it was an embarrassment and showed fear, not respect.

I felt equally strong about flag burning, and I bet there are posters on this thread who were offended when conservative elements in the US wanted that act restricted, yet feel differently about Jones’ act. Free speech must consistent if it is to mean anything. Please don’t drone on about screaming fire in a theater, as that was the same idiotic argument made by the anti-flag burners and it missed the mark then and it misses the mark now.

“Muslims are not wolves, they are people and must be held to the same standard we in the west hold for each other. I am tired of all this leftist bigotry.”
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I’m sure you can point out anywhere in what I wrote where I exempt the murderers. Anywhere. It shouldn’t take to long. Personally I wish you kept left and right out of it; no one shows their lack of understanding logic and moral more than people who make it some kind of political hightide. Sorry – but this has nothing to do with politics – regardless if you believe it or not I would have felt the same if anyone on the ‘left’ did it. Don’t you get tired of idiot statements like that? I do. It’s nonsense and means nothing.
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Moral don’t give a squat about who you vote for.

Step one foot outside American borders and see where your free speech rights gets you.
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It’s nice that you feel they are universally applicable and I feel the same, but regardless of what we feel they start and end at our borders.
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That aside – it’s funny that you yourself would never do it, but the worst you can say about this guy is that he’s an @sshole. Morally guilty is just a bridge to far, eventhough there’s no legal actions involved. I did not realize that our first amendment – our rights to free speech against OUR government, meant that everyone was morally obligated to defend psychopaths.
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Anyway – it’s a circular argument and it’s clear that this is a political statement and not really one of moral – since you have already done the whole ‘you guys on the left’ BS.

“American officials warning him not to do it was an embarrassment and showed fear, not respect.”
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Yea right. How pathetic this argument. The only one showing fear here is you.

He had a legal right he did not have an absolute right. But hey no harm done correct? That why you call him a cretin, an other moderated names, whatever.
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This isn’t about free speech, it is about moral choices. Yea I have free speech, but I keep my mouth shut more often then not. Why? because I do not want to offend for the most part.
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Yea, Yea I know we on this blog speak our minds but we invite each other to do so.

“American officials warning him not to do it was an embarrassment and showed fear, not respect.”
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General Petraeus spoke out against it in the strongest terms. I’m sure this was out of fear. Fear for the hard work he and others have put into making our presence more in line with what’s best for our troops under those circumstances.
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It would be interesting if people who regard this guy as a hero also listened to the man when it goes against their own ideas. Sometimes we just have to understand that what we do isn’t always the best thing to do, even if we have a legal right to do them.

While all soldiers deserve respect for putting their lives on the line, I have to believe that the jury is still out on whether General Petraeus is a hero or not.Time will tell.
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He has been extremely solicitous of Muslim sensibilities, as it serves his purposes to do so. I would seldom criticize a person for kissing up to his clients, and the Muslims are his clients. So, no, it’s not out of fear that he condemns Jones, just that it is good for his business. Who knows how he really feels.

Regarding hippoath’s criticism of my swipe at the “left”, point taken and I usually feel as you do when people bring the left-right bulls**t into conversation. As you might have noticed from my other posts, I am equally contemptuous of the far right and the far left. The reason I mentioned how I think the left feels about the Koran burning in the first place is that I suspect that many of the same people who thought the right were nuts trying to ban flag burning would not be averse to some legislation banning Jones’ act. That was where I was coming from, but, as stated, your point is well taken. On your other points, let me address them one by one:

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“Step one foot outside American borders and see where your free speech rights gets you.”

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You are 100% correct, but Jones conducted his act in the USA.

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“It’s nice that you feel they are universally applicable and I feel the same, but regardless of what we feel they start and end at our borders.”

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I never said they were universally applicable, as they are not. But the act took place in the USA where it is applicable.

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“That aside – it’s funny that you yourself would never do it, but the worst you can say about this guy is that he’s an @sshole. Morally guilty is just a bridge to far, eventhough there’s no legal actions involved. I did not realize that our first amendment – our rights to free speech against OUR government, meant that everyone was morally obligated to defend psychopaths.”

.

I called him an idiot, bigot and jerk, too. He is not guilty of murder, morally or legally. Other people did that and they are 100% guilty of that crime. I am not defending what he did, only his right to do it. BTW, the first amendment is not limited to speech against our government. For example, that is why holocaust deniers are free to spew their nonsense here, but not in Europe.

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Allthings,

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You wrote: “Yea right. How pathetic this argument. The only one showing fear here is you.”

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Not even sure what that means on an anonymous blog, however it is clearly a hollow attempt at an ad hominem attack, which is really uncalled for. It’s rather immature.

NewsBusters: Joe Klein Reserves Spot in Hell for Koran-burning Pastor Who’s As ‘Murderous’ As ‘Suicide Bombers’
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/ken-shepherd/2011/04/04/joe-klein-reserves-spot-hell-koran-burning-pastor

“I called him an idiot, bigot and jerk, too.”
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Why?
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If he really didn’t do anything wrong, why even bother calling him that?
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Is being guilty on a moral level just to far to go? Would that admit that he indeed set this in motion?
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“Regarding hippoath’s criticism of my swipe at the “left”, point taken and I usually feel as you do when people bring the left-right bulls**t into conversation.”
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I personally don’t understand why you had too; because I argued againt you? It’s generally a reflexive need with people who have an inability to find a good argument. What their opponent is politically is a lazy way out.
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I don’t know or care where you stand politically, but you’re still wrong. Morality isn’t a free speech indignity; sometimes we have to stand above our ability to do something regardless of our rights.
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He knew that something would happen. Plain and simple. Lets assume we didn’t know. Lets assume he showed genuine shock that his action caused this and felt guilt. That would resonate with me on a moral level and maybe perhaps just make him a idjut. But he doesn’t show anything; he feels that his free speech insulates him from any moral implication.
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So again – from the top – why do you even bother calling him those names if the real issue of his moral guilt is a bridge to far? Just so you can cover the base of ‘he’s a grand moron’?
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You should have saved your energy posting all of that if that was the entire point.

hippoaoth,

In conclusion, Jones is a crack pot and bigot, but not morally or legally guilty of those murders. If you wish to use soft bigotry by infantilizing Muslims, good for you.

Your question about why called him anything if he did not do anything wrong is so off base that I will take it an an indication that you know I am correct. In other words, he is wrong in insulting a religion and that makes him a bigot and a jerk. And you know that.

Your lack of graciousness on my explanation for use of the left-right thing I will take as no more than a lack of graciousness. I had misjudged you.

And finally, moral guilt IS a bridge too far. 100% of the moral and legal guilt rest with the murderers.

assuming this blog is not an april fools’ prank, joe klein has found a strange bedfellow in pastor jones: they are both moral idiots

Is Joe Klein sane? He thinks burning the koran is the same as crashing planes into the World Trade Center?

The Koran is just a book and not a very good one at that. Muslims are using it to murder people every single day. Klein defends it?

Who does he think is causing all our problems today? Catholics? It is people like him that are helping these murderers justify their attack on western civilization.

Klein needs to go and live in Saudi Arabia and see just how wonderful life is under Muslim rule. He is as clueless as a rock.

If we were to burn a Koran every day there would never be justification for the barbaric acts of these murderers. Except in the minds of people like Klein who seem blind to reality.

Your analogy fails because at NO stage did Jones ever no matter how obliquely encourage anyone to commit violence.

He did however refuse to give in to threats of violence, but apparently to some, that’s many times worse than actually committing violence .

@allthingsinaname
comment 37.1
“Look Jones was warned what would happen. He was warned by the US Government, ”
This is the same government that warned of the dire consequences and loss of life of US personnel in regards to the wikileaks cables?
Remind me again how many people lost their lives as a result of that claim?
Do you think that they should not have been released given their was a potential for violence according to the US government, or is it only when islam is in the mix that one should bow at once to threats of violence?