In the Arena

The Perils of Punditry: Libya Edition

Fareed Zakaria does a good job laying out many of the perils and possibilities of U.S. military action in Libya in this week’s print edition. Fareed favors US military action in the mildest, most reluctant and reasonable manner imaginable; I have opposed it, less mildly but with equal reluctance. I  agree with Fareed in this respect: I hope that we’ll “get lucky” in Libya–and Gaddafi will pack up his famous tent, settle somewhere in sub-Saharan Africa or be murdered by one of his retinue. It may happen. And if it does, all my fears will have been proven groundless–if, that is, the next Libyan government proves moderate and humane.

But a decade of watching our heightened interactions with the Islamic world has led me to fear the worst. The one thing I’ve learned, above all others, is that there are always unintended consequences–and those consequences are almost always negative. This cloudy reality is terrible news for those who play the pundit game, given that talking heads are expected to be vehement in one way or another. Yesterday, I found myself on Morning Joe with Howard Dean, who was as vehement in favor of the Libya action as he was vehemently opposed to the Iraq war. He said, without qualification, that all we had to do was get rid of Gaddafi and all would be well. I asked him how he knew that for sure, how was this different from Saddam in 2003. He said that in 2003 the government was “lying” to us about Weapons of Mass Destruction. That’s never been proven. What can be said with absolute certainty is that in 2003, the Bush Administration hurtled into war on the basis of insufficient information and wishful thinking–that Ahmed Chalabi would slip neatly into place as Saddam’s successor, among other things–and similar wishful thinking may be taking place today about the nature of the Libyan opposition.

Some other problems with the Libya punditry:

1. As Fareed mentions–and as I did last week–the extraordinary diplomacy that took place in the days preceding the military action has received insufficient attention. It is very difficult for a US President to stand aside when both the Arab League and the United Nations recommend military action. That was unprecedented. In the future, though, this precedent will allow us to make better informed decisions: if the Arab League and the UN recommend military action, think twice. No sooner did we begin the bombing of Gaddafi’s air defenses that made the no-fly zone possible than the Arab League began complaining that we were being too violent. Apparently the Arab League is only in favor of non-violent violence. Can an Arab League condemnation of western imperialist intervention be far behind?

2. There has been all sorts of consternation about the confusion at NATO headquarters as well. In the future, there should be none: we are NATO. Only we have the experience, equipment and logistical capability to lead a military action, even one that seems a nominally simple as a no-fly zone. The President’s notion that we can take a subsidiary role is more wishful thinking, a conceit without substance. As Jim Miklazewski of NBC reported yesterday, we have fired more than 120 cruise missiles and the British have fired 12–which apparently depleted their entire supply of said missiles. The French were derided as well for jumping the gun on the action and, allegedly, dropping only one bomb. I suspect we’ll find that information is incorrect. Even if it isn’t, we’d do well not to deride our allies–especially the French and the British, who have sustained many, many casualties in Afghanistan–but we should be aware of their limitations.

3. For every theoretical argument in favor of intervention in these cases, there is an equally valid argument against it. All of them are made of Swiss cheese, but the arguments against intervention should be taken more seriously than those in favor. For example, there are those who say American prestige is on the line now that the President has said–foolishly, I believe–that Gaddafi must go, and those who say that if we don’t stand against this (or that) dictator, we’ll be impeding the revolutionary surge through the region. I could argue with equal vehemence that any American-led military action (and believe me, even this UN-Arab League-NATO-sanctioned action is perceived in the region as American-led) will be seen as yet another example of western neocolonialism and give ballast to the arguments of Islamic extremists.

4. The most powerful argument for intervention is humanitarian, to prevent a massacre. But where and when does this responsibility stop? Syria just massacred at least 25 protesters; Yemen has massacred hundreds. There are the enduring horrors in Zimbabwe and the more recent inhumanity in Cote D’Ivoire. Well, you might argue, we should intervene when we can. (This is usually when Rwanda enters the argument.) Sure, if genocide is about to be committed by a force that doesn’t have air defenses or much of a military, it’s probably safe to intervene–but how often is that the case, and at what point does our intenvention impede the ability of local forces to come to a settlement? (As it may be doing, now, in Afghanistan.)

5. There are two powerful arguments against intervention. First, the unintended consequences mentioned above. If Gaddafi isn’t murdered or sent packing in the next week or so, are we prepared to maintain the no-fly zone for years and years, as we did in Iraq? If there is a stalemate on the ground, will we be sucked deeper and deeper into support for the rebels? Will this become Somalia–a classic humanitarian intervention that went bad? The second argument is more theoretical but no less powerful: what are the opportunity costs of this intervention? What, for example, could we have done with the $1 trillion spent in Iraq? This Libya intervention will undoubtedly cost billions–which could have been spent more profitably, as I’ve argued, in countries that matter more to our national interests than Libya does. Egypt, for example. And there is the second-level of opportunity costs: the amount of Presidential time and effort that could have been spent on other matters–like the need for economic development here at home.

6. And that’s the last peril of Libya punditry: there is a segregation of talking heads–they tend to be either foreign or domestic. Those who specialize in foreign or military affairs tend to know little or nothing about what’s happening within our borders. Those who specialize in domestic politics tend not to understand that vital impact on our national security that a country like Pakistan, for example, plays. Those who’ve argued for Libya intervention have been, for the most part, those who do not focus on the waning economic power of the United States, the need to rethink our long-term deficits, the need to invest in our future. They tend to think more about the Middle East than the Middle West. That leads to skewed priorities. (The best among them, like Fareed, have been paying more attention to the problems here at home in recent months).

Since 9/11, I’ve tried–to the extent that I can–to think about, and report from, both Middles, East and West. I understand that we have a role to play in the world. But I also try to understand what the world looks like if you’re an unemployed machinist in Ohio. I thought that decisive action against the Islamic extremists who attacked us was necessary after 9/11–but I’ve learned since that decisive action was (a) nearly impossible and (b) that the threat was not nearly as dire as I feared. The problems in the Middle West are far more important right now than those in Libya…

And having said that, I now perform the ultimate punditic about-face: I’ll be spending the next two weeks in the Middle East. The blogging may be sporadic…but I promise that when I return, I’ll be spending a lot more time on the road in the middle west.

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  • nflfoghorn

    “…[I]n 2003, the Bush Administration hurtled into war on the basis of insufficient information and wishful thinking–that Ahmed Chalabi would slip neatly into place as Saddam’s successor”
    .
    That, plus Curveball…
    .
    …doesn’t = LYING in your estimation?

  • Joe Klein

    No, it equals sloppy misreading and wishful thinking about intelligence…no guarantee we’re not doing the same thing with some Libyan curveball now, right?

  • newfreedomblog

    “And if it does, all my fears will have been proven groundless–if, that is, the next Libyan government proves moderate and humane.”

    .
    Oh ye of little faith. You mean to say that Islam is not one of the most peace-loving religions of the world? That there may be a chance if Gaddafi is over-thrown that there might be a government put into it’s place that would take advantage of the people? Stoning under Sharia? Be-headings in the name of Allah? Limbs removed with an Axe for stealing? Women who are treated not much better than the favorite family cow?

  • http://ericychan.wordpress.com ericychan

    Joe,
    .
    Thanks for this post. Several questions you may want to consider when you’re in the ME, though:
    .
    1. Now that we’ve already SAID that Gaddafi must go, what will be his response to the West if we fail to dislodge him? It is true that we do not altogether know whom the Libyan rebels are, but we KNOW what Gaddafi was, and still is.
    .
    2. Would Gaddafi have packed up his tent/get murdered by one of his retinue if his tanks went victoriously into Benghazi and he massacred the opposition?
    .
    3. Finally, you mention unintended consequences, which is VERY true. However, there are unintended consequences to inaction, just as there is to action. How do you measure, then, which is more deleterious?

  • michaelfury

    “He said that in 2003 the government was “lying” to us about Weapons of Mass Destruction. That’s never been proven. What can be said with absolute certainty is that in 2003, the Bush Administration hurtled into war on the basis of insufficient information and wishful thinking”

    Wrong.

    http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2011/02/28/what-would-they-not-do/

    And btw: “the government” is still lying to you about “weapons of mass destruction”.

    http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2009/03/10/culture-of-deception/

  • afguy

    Problem was, “Curveball” pretty much WAS our main source in Iraq. He was telling us what we wanted to hear.
    .
    Ignoring Ritter, Kay and the inspectors who could NOT find those WMD that we were assuring existed? Terminating the search then using the existence of WMD as a justification for the invasion, because he just HAD to have what we couldn’t find?
    .
    How about covering up or openly disparaging the parts that cast doubt on your conclusions? Picking ONLY the parts that seemed to lend credence to your goals and ignoring that others disagreed with the conclusions drawn?
    .
    Not LYING?
    .
    Ok, I think I get it… “We didn’t lie, we just refused to listen to anyone whose opinions and information didn’t support what we were already inclined to do.”

  • nflfoghorn

    Thx for responding. I still think W and Dick’s willful misreading of the facts and presenting them as truth was a deliberate attempt to pull the collective wool over Americans’s eyes. Colin Powell must’ve felt like Judas.

  • shepherdwong

    If there’s ever been a more perfect title for a blog post, I haven’t seen it.

  • http://grapemusing.blogspot.com/ grape_crush

    He said that in 2003 the government was “lying” to us about Weapons of Mass Destruction. That’s never been proven.

    Lie by Lie: The Mother Jones Iraq War Timeline (8/1/90 – 2/14/08)

    Excerpt:

    On CBS’s Face the Nation, Condoleezza Rice says, “We know from a detainee that—the head of training for Al Qaeda—that they sought help in developing chemical and biological weapons because they weren’t doing very well on their own. They sought it in Iraq. They received the help.” Libi, the detainee in question, has been doubted by American intelligence since February 2002. All of his intel was obtained under torture, and in 2004 the CIA will recall all intelligence assessments based on his testimony. – 3/9/2003

    They took weak evidence that, in some cases, had been clearly contradicted and ran with it because it fit the agenda. You can quibble over whether or not they were ‘proven’ to be lying, but to deny Dean’s claim, you have to do the journalistic equivalent of putting out your eyes and puncturing your eardrums.

  • http://grapemusing.blogspot.com/ grape_crush

    Perfectly ironic, yes.

  • nflfoghorn

    Islam didn’t treat Libyans poorly, Ghadafi did!
    .
    Next, will you tell us that Jim Jones and Dave Koresh were loyal Christian soldiers?

  • nflfoghorn

    aka pull a Michael O’Donoghue ;)

  • afguy

    I think we’re confusing “lying” and “perjury” here?
    .
    Lying is a moral term having to do with mis-stating what you know to be true.
    .
    Perjury is a legal term, in which you did the same, but under oath. Hence, the big deal raised in which witnesses before Congress are or are NOT sworn in.
    .
    Were we lied to about Iraq? Ask me a harder question, like if the sun rose this morning…
    .
    No one at the national level, either journalist or politician, has a real problem with lies. We even have cute names for them… “spin”, “mis-speaking”, propaganda, etc.
    .
    But, have someone do the SAME thing after placing their hand on that “black book”, and suddenly we are horrified.
    .
    Did any of the principles in the lead-up to Iraq do so in a manner that would have left them open to charges of “perjury”?
    .
    Please.
    .
    These people are masters of picking the right words to leave enough doubt that, what they said is actually a lie and not a simple mistake that ANYONE could have made. Just enough doubt to reach the “reasonable” thresh-hold.
    .
    But… did they lie? You betcha.

  • allthingsinaname

    “The second argument is more theoretical but no less powerful: what are the opportunity costs of this intervention? What, for example, could we have done with the $1 trillion spent in Iraq?”
    .
    What I have learned Joe is given the state of the Press and journalism today. That we would have done nothing with that money period. We would still be letting our infrastructure decline, dismantling the infrastructure of our future, by laying off and attacking our teachers, our people would still be without health care, the assault on science, or anything at all that might help us advance would continue. Not a damn dime of that 1trillion would be spent to help the middle class, the working class, it would all be given to the Corporations and the wealthy. Oh that is right it was given to them in the form of a tax cut during the war.

  • http://grapemusing.blogspot.com/ grape_crush

    No, it equals sloppy misreading and wishful thinking about intelligence.
    .
    No, presenting weak evidence that you’ve been told is unreliable as ‘Slam Dunks” and hard fact is lying, Joe.

  • http://elvisberg.wordpress.com Elvis Elvisberg

    I don’t buy the underlying premise here that we’re either at “Gaddafi goes” or “national shame for US.” We had a NFZ over Iraq for like a decade. It was great news for the Kurds. In Libya, international intervention has already avoided some Hama-like fate for at least Benghazi. And that’s a permanent victory– Qaddafi’s air force is no more.
    -
    The difference b/w Libya and Ivory Coast et al is that only in Libya were there clear lines of control, and a head of state openly using the military to crush protests of mostly civilians. What on earth good would a No Fly Zone do in Ivory Coast? (Or Bahrain, or Yemen). To intervene effectively there would be to engage in Iraq-style, likely counterproductive invasion & occupation. We lack the ability and, happily, the will to do that.
    ——-
    “No sooner did we begin the bombing of Gaddafi’s air defenses that made the no-fly zone possible than the Arab League began complaining that we were being too violent.”
    -
    Ugh, that talking point went stale days ago. See: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-21/arab-league-committed-to-libya-no-fly-zone-moussa-says-1-.html “The Arab League remains committed to United Nations’ efforts to enforce a no-fly zone in Libya and urged coalition forces to make protecting civilians a priority for the operation, Secretary General Amr Moussa said.”
    -
    From someone who was right about everything re: Iraq, here’s “Top ten accomplishments of the UN No Fly Zone”: http://www.juancole.com/2011/03/top-ten-accomplishments-of-the-un-no-fly-zone.html

  • rdw56

    -the extraordinary diplomacy that took place in the days preceding the military action has received insufficient attention.

    *******************************

    What was extraordinary?

  • rdw56

    There were no lies and there were several other intelligence agencies with the same opinions. Curveball was not a major source. You got your head handed to you on this one. The smears on Bush did much to get him re-elected. If you are going to call someone a liar you must have proof. As Joe pointed out, and he’s no fan of Bush, there is NO EVIDENCE OF LYING.

  • rdw56

    presenting weak evidence that you’ve been told is unreliable as ‘Slam Dunks” and hard fact is lying, Joe.

    ***************************************

    the only liar in the game was Joe Wilson. The intelligence agencies here and abroad all agreed with what was presented. Both Clintons and plenty of other liberals in the know all agreed. There were no lies. You lost this point badly in the 2004 election and will continue to lose it forever. Youtube really sucks sometimes. some of the most vocal critics of Saddam were on your side including Senator Rockerfeller, the ranking democrat on the intelligence committee and user of the phrase ‘mushroom cloud’.

  • shepherdwong

    One of the many proven lies about Iraqi WMDs:

    “In the last 14 months, Iraq has sought to buy thousands of specially designed aluminum tubes, which American officials believe were intended as components of centrifuges to enrich uranium.”
    .
    – George W. Bush

  • nflfoghorn

    Yellowcake.
    Nucular [sic] weapons.
    “Curveball was not a major source”
    .
    Cut to 1.3.
    .
    Delusion: the 58th state. (Or is it 52nd? I lose track.)

  • afguy

    There were no lies. You lost this point badly in the 2004 election and will continue to lose it forever.
    .
    And the fact the “Curveball” is on the record admitting that he DID lie means WHAT to you…?
    .
    Hello, rdw… what color is the sky on the planet you inhabit?

  • nflfoghorn

    JK, while there may be a Libyan Curveball (or ten), we can also see the atrocities perpetrated by the government for ourselves. ElBaradei and his guys couldn’t find anything in Iraq that directly led to a 9/11 connection. Nothin’.

  • rdw56

    I still think W and Dick’s willful misreading of the facts and presenting them as truth was a deliberate attempt to pull the collective wool over Americans’s eyes. Colin Powell must’ve felt like Judas.

    *************************************************************
    Oh there’s many more participants in the willful misreading. How about Bill and Hillary? Kerry? The 75% in Congress who supported the resolution AND had FULL access to ALL of the intelligence. How ’bout the Brits, French, Italians, German and Russians all of whom agreed?

    History is going to be very good to GWB on this one. It was always a baseless smear.

  • rdw56

    And the fact the “Curveball” is on the record admitting that he DID lie means WHAT to you…?

    ******************************************************

    Curveball was never more than a bit player. But even then he doesn’t prove your point. His lies were just that, his lies. He owns them. Powell did not lie at the UN. He believed in the intelligence he was provided. That it was wrong doesn’t make him a liar.

    This is your dilemma. We all understand what a lie is. Spin is spin. It might or might not be a lie. The historian out to prove Bush lied has to have definitive evidence before he can write it. That’s why History will be good to Bush. 1st off this history won’t be written for quite sometime and it won’t be written by an overly wrought partisan hack. They will cover the war as it unfolded according to the evidence available to the decision makers at the time the decision was made.

  • rdw56

    the post at 10 was intended to be here.

  • afguy

    The 75% in Congress who supported the resolution AND had FULL access to ALL of the intelligence.
    .
    Exactly WHAT version of history are you reading? The one written by the Texas Board of Education?
    .
    You DO understand the concept of “lying”, don’t you, rdw?
    .
    Only a FEW committee members saw the PART of the intel the Admin ALLOWED them to see and weren’t allowed to take notes or ask questions… the majority in the Congress had to vote based on what they HEARD second hand.

  • rdw56

    “In the last 14 months, Iraq has sought to buy thousands of specially designed aluminum tubes, which American officials believe were intended as components of centrifuges to enrich uranium.”
    .
    *****************************************

    Wasn’t a lie. Early reports were just that. Being wrong isn’t the same as lying.

  • http://elvisberg.wordpress.com Elvis Elvisberg

    Whether the Bush administration was openly lying, or simply acting with reckless indifference to the truth is a debate we can have. But I’m not sure it’s a debate worth having. The fact is, they intentionally half-assed everything about the rationale and the planning, bringing indelible shame on themselves and my country (and those who, like me, were foolish or nationalist enough to trust them).
    -
    They did not want to know the truth.
    - http://www.tnr.com/print/article/the-first-casualty

    the Bush administration culled from U.S. intelligence those assessments that supported its position and omitted those that did not. The administration ignored, and even suppressed, disagreement within the intelligence agencies and pressured the CIA to reaffirm its preferred version of the Iraqi threat. Similarly, it stonewalled, and sought to discredit, international weapons inspectors when their findings threatened to undermine the case for war. … the United States may yet discover the chemical and biological weapons that various governments and the United Nations have long believed Iraq possessed. But it is unlikely to find… a reconstituted nuclear weapons program or evidence of joint exercises with Al Qaeda–the two most compelling security arguments for war.

    On October 7, 2002, Bush made a number of misleading and exaggerated statements about the Iraqi threat. Threat of Nuclear Weapons; Saddam Had WMD; Iraqi Scientists Reconstituting Nuclear Weapons; Aluminum Tubes To Produce Weapons; Iraq Developing UAVs; Iraq/Al Qaeda Relationship; Zarqawi Presence In Iraq; Bush Linking Iraq to 9/11; Plan For War War With Iraq; Link To War on Terror; Al Qaeda Members Trained In Bomb-Making In Iraq; Iraq’s Long-Range Missiles

    http://thinkprogress.org/cincinnati-bungles/
    -
    For gosh sakes, Dick Armey said that Cheney lied to him about WMD. Republicans in Congress have saaid that “everyone” in Congress “Would Agree That Iraq Was A Mistake”.
    -
    There’s simply no rational defense of how the Bush administration behaved.

  • pintortwo

    sloppy misreading and wishful thinking about intelligence
    .
    .
    “It just sticks in my craw every time I hear them say it’s an intelligence failure. It’s an intelligence failure. This was a policy failure.” …
    .
    “The idea of going after Iraq was U.S. policy. It was going to happen one way or the other,”…
    .
    “The policy was set. The war in Iraq was coming. And they were looking for intelligence to fit into the policy, to justify the policy.”…
    .
    “The group that was dealing with preparation for the Iraq war came back and said they’re no longer interested. And we said, ‘Well, what about the intel?’ And they said, ‘Well, this isn’t about intel anymore. This is about regime change.’”
    .
    - Tyler Drumheller, CIA’s former top agent in Europe and head of covert operations there. (link)

  • rdw56

    Only a FEW committee members saw the PART of the intel the Admin ALLOWED them to see and weren’t allowed to take notes or ask questions… the majority in the Congress had to vote based on what they HEARD second hand.

    ******************************************************************

    Every single member of the intelligence committee and the leadership of the Senate and House had full access to every briefing and piece of intelligence every day. Every member of Congress has full access to every piece of intelligence for more than a month before the vote.

  • http://grapemusing.blogspot.com/ grape_crush

    1. In the future, though, this precedent will allow us to make better informed decisions: if the Arab League and the UN recommend military action, think twice.

    Oh, so you don’t believe the US should be part of the United Nations, or at least a member of its Security Council. Nice to know, Joe…because if you felt otherwise, you’d accept that “The Members of the United Nations agree to accept and carry out the decisions of the Security Council in accordance with the present Charter”, as stated in Article 25.

    2. The President’s notion that we can take a subsidiary role is more wishful thinking, a conceit without substance.

    Disagree. Anyone can build a bomb, but no one delivers them like the good ol’ US of A…but the fact that we can inflict massive pain doesn’t mean that only we can or should lead the action. That’s the principle behind civilian leadership of the military, isn’t it?

    3. All of them are made of Swiss cheese, but the arguments against intervention should be taken more seriously than those in favor.

    Yes, because making anti-US extremists into anti-US extremists and satisfying some nebulous notion of ‘prestige’ is important when deciding whether or not to save lives.

    And yes, “if so, then why not do something in country X?”…to which my answer is, ‘pick your battles.’

    4. The most powerful argument for intervention is humanitarian, to prevent a massacre. But where and when does this responsibility stop?

    Again, ‘pick your battles’…and do it wisely, as in situations where selective application of judicious force for a short period of time will achieve whatever goal you have in mind. It would be a great expression of humanitarianism to intervene in Zimbabwe, but there’s no way that any such effort could be performed cleanly without serious ethical/moral compromises.

    5. There are two powerful arguments against intervention.

    Those are good, but to be fair, unintended consequences and opportunity costs are powerful arguments against doing anything. How would those two arguments apply to not implementing the no-fly zone, Joe?

    6. And that’s the last peril of Libya punditry: there is a segregation of talking heads–they tend to be either foreign or domestic. Those who specialize in foreign or military affairs tend to know little or nothing about what’s happening within our borders. Those who specialize in domestic politics tend not to understand that vital impact on our national security that a country like Pakistan, for example, plays.

    Agree…but an unfortunate side effect of fence-straddling punditry is that said pundits end up with a shallower understanding of things than the specialists.

    I don’t have a solution for that, by the way.

  • hippooath

    “You lost this point badly in the 2004 election and will continue to lose it forever”
    .
    I wonder in what universe this really matters when it comes to truth? I find it – excuse the word – retarded to speak of facts a truth in terms of elections. It’s like saying SQUIRREL everytime someone brings up a fact. It’s quite plainly idiotic.

  • afguy

    Wasn’t a lie. Early reports were just that. Being wrong isn’t the same as lying.
    .
    Let’s say, for the sake of “argument” (yeah, big stretch there) that they weren’t “lying”…
    .
    I take it that you feel that BEING CONSISTENTLY WRONG about many things ranks right up there with being right, at least as long as it’s being compared to openly lying, when writing the history about lead-up to the Iraq war?
    .
    As long as one didn’t openly lie, then, somehow, he should be given credit in ths history books for being “right”?
    .
    Because, according to you, history is going to be kind to GWB because he didn’t openly lie about the WMD, he and his advisors were just wrong and were mis-lead about many things that turned out to be “fact-free”.
    .
    Like I said, what planet are you from?

  • rdw56

    I wonder in what universe this really matters when it comes to truth?

    ********************************************************

    It matters in this universe. You lost the election in 2004 in large part because of your baseless smears of Bush as a liar. It’s a serious charge that requires evidence not opinion to support it. As Joe Klein pointed out, and he is as partisan as anyone here, it’s never been proven that Bush or Cheney lied. Historians are going to report on all of the evidence supporting the opinion Saddam had WMDs or could easily reconstitute his programs.

    You lost the election because you lied. Bush did not.

  • rdw56

    BTW: This is what makes the story of Joe Wilson so delicious. Now there is a bold and brazen liar. I do enjoy everytime he makes a splash as he did recently with the bomb of a movie the Washington Post rips him to shreds as a total fraud. His original piece in the NYTs wasn’t just a lie it was obviously a lie. Saddams agents WERE in the Sudan looking for yellowcake. Joe said so. It was the only piece of usable intelligence he provided. The dilemma for Historians is while Joe was such an important figure among liberals he can’t be used by Historians except as an example of his own frauds. If they want to report on the Sudan /Yellowcake angle they’ll have to report that British Intelligence STILL stands buy it’s reports that Saddam did try to buy yellowcake. They have their own chain of evidence.

    Of course any historian understanding evidence knows they can’t cherrypick without being immediately caught and exposed as a partisan hack. Douglas Brinkley learned the hard way with his brutal biography of John Kerry. Posing him as a war hero cost the election. Historians also understand they can’t put facts out of sequence or context. There isn’t anything they can write about Bush what can’t be immediately fact checked by an 8th grade with a search engine.

  • pintortwo

    Highlights from the “curveball” wikipedia link:
    .
    Despite CIA technicians and weapon experts finding major flaws and inconsistencies with the designs and systems he asserted the military was developing, this information made it to the American government and although there were wide doubts and questions about the claimed informant’s reliability and background, assertions attributed to Curveball claiming that Iraq was creating biological agents in mobile weapons laboratories to elude inspectors appeared in more than 112 United States government reports between January 2000 and September 2001.[17] His assertions eventually made it into United States Secretary of State Colin Powell’s February 2003 address to the United Nations detailing Iraq’s weapons programs.

    Curveball’s German intelligence handlers saw him as “crazy … out of control”, his friends called him a “congenital liar”, and a US physician working for the Defense Department who travelled to Germany to take blood samples seeking to discover if Anthrax spores were present was stunned to find the defector had shown up for medical tests with a “blistering hangover”,[19] and he “might be an alcoholic”.

    The Bush administration ignored evidence from the UN weapons inspectors that Curveball’s claims were false. Curveball had identified a particular Iraqi facility as a docking station for mobile labs. Satellite photography had showed a wall made such access impossible, but it was theorised that this wall was temporary. “When United Nations Monitoring Verification and Inspection Commission (UNMOVIC) inspectors visited the site on February 9, 2003, they found that the wall was a permanent structure and could find nothing to corroborate Curveball’s statements.”[23] Instead, the inspectors found the warehouse to be used for seed processing.

    On April 8, 2005, CIA Director Porter Goss ordered an internal review of the CIA in order to determine why doubts about Curveball’s reliability were not forwarded to policy makers. Former CIA Director George Tenet and his former deputy, John E. McLaughlin, announced that they were not aware of doubts about Curveball’s veracity before the war. However, Tyler Drumheller, the former chief of the CIA’s European division, told the Los Angeles Times that “everyone in the chain of command knew exactly what was happening.”

    In February 2011, Rafid Ahmed Alwan al-Janabi (curveball) admitted for the first time that he lied about his story regarding Iraq’s secret biological weapons program.[6] He also admitted to being shocked that his false story was used as a justification for the Iraq War but proud that the fabrications helped topple Saddam Hussein.

  • rdw56

    Tyler Drumheller, CIA’s former top agent in Europe and head of covert operations there.

    *************************************************

    Not exactly an unbiased player. Top agents are a dime a dozen and all have an agenda of their own. Just because they work for the CIA doesn’t mean they don’t have their own political opinions and ambitions and books to write. I have no idea what point he makes. That GWB decided Saddam had to go more than a day before the issue the order? That’s news? NO it isn’t.

  • rdw56

    Curveball wasn’t a major source. The Brits, French and Russians didn’t know of him or use him in anyway and supported the CIAs recommendation on WMDs. The Germans thought him a crackpot and ignored him using other sources to get to the same opinion. He wasn’t a major source for the CIA.

    Curveball is an example of sloppy intelligence. He’s is not an example of lying.

  • afguy

    Here, read this from David Kay:
    .
    http://www.armscontrol.org/act/2004_03/Iraq

  • http://elvisberg.wordpress.com Elvis Elvisberg

    This entire discussion is rather frustrating from a standpoint of rational debate, but it is useful from a sociology & neuroscience perspective about today’s Republican Party.
    -
    Bush followers don’t really even bother to defend the stuff that Bush said and did (which is, of course, rather central to a discussion about the decision to invade & occupy Iraq).
    -
    Instead, we’re instantly treated to “Joe Wilson sucks,” “I don’t like John Kerry,” etc.
    -
    This is because Republican allegiance doesn’t involve any principles; it’s 100% a matter of tribalism. Republicans experience deep emontions of resentment of liberals, minorities, and foreigners. Therefore, if a Republican administration balloons the deficit and shames America by saying a bunch of stuff that turns out to be false to justify a nightmare of an invasion & occupation of a foreign country, the response of Republicans is… to talk about people they hate.
    -
    Republicans don’t care about the policy record of the Republican Party. They care about the emotions they feel when they close their eyes and think about people they hate.
    -
    This applies to the rank and file (who treated Bush Jr. to a 75% approval rating, vs. 28% from independents, as he left office), and, with perhaps two or three exceptions, every national GOP officeholder.

  • afguy

    rdw, you’d have fit right in with the Reagan and Bush teams from a ideological perspective.
    .
    Your ability to cover your eyes and stick your fingers in your ears until they meet is inspiring.

  • rdw56

    There’s simply no rational defense of how the Bush administration behaved.
    ************************************

    Pity their critics behaved worse and it cost them the 2004 election. The fact Dick Armey thinks Cheney lied to him isn’t evidence Cheney lied to him. This is your dilemma. You have no evidence. Flash foreword to 2025 when historians begin to look at the Bush Presidency. No reputable Historian will report that Bush lied without evidence. They can’t. That’s what being a historian is. They can report on the “Bush lied” meme as a political issue but that’s going to accrue to GWBs credit and I think will explain in part why his re-election was so easy.

    To the extent there is controversy over the Iraq war it won’t be the decision to go to war but the execution of the process of moving Iraq to a democracy and the focus will be both political and military. There’s little question Dr. General Davis Petraeus has achieved a level of immortality and will be viewed as one of the greatest of American War Generals. Moreover his aggressive counter-insurgency strategy has reversed decades of US military tactics in a way that has global import. The way we now deal with insurgents is to kill as many as possible as quickly as possible and we start at the top.

  • pintortwo

    Saddams agents WERE in the Sudan looking for yellowcake. Joe said so.
    .
    Wrong.
    .
    It was the only piece of usable intelligence he provided.
    .
    Wrong.
    .
    The dilemma for Historians is while Joe was such an important figure among liberals he can’t be used by Historians except as an example of his own frauds.
    .
    No. Historians can use the CIA’s own actions to show that they believed the “yellowcake” story was a fabrication:
    .
    .
    Wilson spent eight days in Niger looking for signs of a secret deal to send yellowcake to Iraq. He spoke to government officials who would have known about such a transaction. No one did. There had been a meeting between Iraqis and Nigerians in 1999, but Wilson was told uranium had never been discussed. He also found no evidence that Iraq had even been interested in buying uranium.

    When he returned, Wilson told the CIA what he had learned. Despite that, some intelligence analysts stood by the Italian report that Saddam Hussein had purchased uranium from Niger. But the director of the CIA and the deputy director didn’t buy it. In October, when the president’s speechwriters tried to put the Niger uranium story in a speech that President Bush was scheduled to deliver in Cincinnati, they intervened.
    .
    In a phone call and two faxes to the White House, they warned “the Africa story is overblown” and “the evidence is weak.” The speechwriters took the uranium reference out of the speech.

    ..(I)in early January 2003, the National Intelligence Council, which oversees all U.S. intelligence agencies, did a final assessment of the uranium rumor and submitted a report to the White House. Their conclusion: The story was baseless…

    “So, let me see if I have it correctly. The United States gets a report that Saddam is trying to buy uranium from Africa. But you and many others in our intelligence community quickly knock it down. And then the uranium story is removed from the speech that the President is to give in Cincinnati. Because the head of the CIA, George Tenet, doesn’t believe in it?” Bradley asked.
    .
    “Right,” Drumheller (said).
    .
    It then appeared in the State of the Union address as a British report. Drumheller, who oversaw intelligence operations for the CIA in Europe doubts the British had something the U.S. didn’t. “No. I don’t think they did,” he says.
    .
    The British maintain they have intelligence to support the story —but to this day, they have never shared it.
    -link

  • Joe Klein

    Folks–It’s pretty hilarious that with all we’ve got to think through right now, you’re still so obsessed about the Bush Administration’s decision to go to war. For what it’s worth: It was a lousy decision, arguably one of the worst in American history. And, no doubt, the Bushies were looking for any possible excuse to go to war–even to the point of taking questionable intelligence at face value without investigating it. But the allegation that Bush “lied” about WMD just doesn’t have any dispositive evidence to confirm it–I mean, were the French, who also believed Saddam had WMD, lying too?

    Iraq was a disaster and remains a very questionable enterprise–we have no idea whether the “democracy” there will hold. But let’s move on, already–learn from the past–and concentrate on how to respond to the extraordinary events taking place now.

  • afguy

    Powell did not lie at the UN. He believed in the intelligence he was provided. That it was wrong doesn’t make him a liar.
    .
    No, but the person who told him that the evidence was a “slam dunk” did… George Tenet.
    .
    And his “punishment” was what… the “Presidential Medal of Freedom” from one of the people he lied to… GWB?
    .
    Boy, I’d hate to know what Junior would do to him if he was REALLY pi$$ed…

  • http://elvisberg.wordpress.com Elvis Elvisberg

    “That bit about being obsessed about [Iraq] — I really liked that. Do you think being concerned about an important national issue is the same as being obsessed?”
    -
    (From you, all right?!? I learned it by watching you. Source: http://www.salon.com/media/media960718.html )
    -
    The historical record is clear that the Bush administration acted with reckless indifference to the truth. Cowardly and duped Democrats went along with it, enabled by a media chock full of Tom Friedmans and Michael Gordon/Judy Millers on op ed pages and in reporting roles. (“The media did a really bad job of covering the run-up to the war.” — Karen Tumulty). The resulting invasion was a catastrophe for the US, Iraq, the UK.
    -
    But it did improve Iran’s position, so it wasn’t all bad news for everyone, I guess.

  • rdw56

    Bush followers don’t really even bother to defend the stuff that Bush said and did (

    **************************************

    There is a real simple reason. The discussion isn’t about what Bush said. It’s about what his critics said of him. That he’s a liar. As Joe Klein pointed out, there’s never been any evidence to support it. It’s been a political loser. This is a blog about politics isn’t it?

    As far as support for Bush I would be one of those 75% despite the fact he was a pig on spending. I did not care for quite a few things he did but he was terrific on security, defense, taxes and the Supreme Court. There isn’t anything you said about republicans that doesn’t apply to democrats. Obama has been by far the most partisan President in history with polling data at the beginning the same as GWBs at the end.

    The appointments of Roberts and Alito were brilliant. Roberts is proving to be an outstanding chief justice. Liberals are still weeping over Citizens United and the smart ones are very concerned about Obamacare in front of this court. They should be. Roberts delivers broad decisions not at all hesitant to accept 5-4 votes. It’s very possible he uses Obamacare to reverse decades of federal expansion via the commerce clause.

  • Joe Klein

    Yes, but the national debt would be $1 trillion less–weakening the arguments of the deficit hawks–and there would be several thousand Americans and tens of thousands of Iraqis alive today.

  • pintortwo

    Wasn’t a major source? Perhaps you should re-read the first paragraph.
    .
    The CIA accepted the UN inspector’s analysis of Saddam’s WMD potential: there was no evidence. The CIA also had credible sources (far better than Chalibi or curveball) that claimed no such program.
    .
    It is not sloppy intelligence. It is a well considered campaign to manipulate intelligence in order to make it appear to justify the decision to invade Iraq. The campaign had its media and institutional components (pseudo-intelligence agencies cropped up, like the Office of Special Plans). Nothing sloppy about it– it was meticulously carried out. It was a successful propaganda campaign, something that most rational people call lying.

  • nflfoghorn

    “Those who don’t know their history are doomed to repeat it,” he said Furyously. ;)

  • nflfoghorn

    “Your ability to cover your eyes and stick your fingers in your ears until they meet is inspiring”
    .
    To the Helen Kellers of the modern world, maybe.

  • rdw56

    The British maintain they have intelligence to support the story —but to this day, they have never shared it.

    ****************************************

    There you got to the heart of the matter didn’t you? Then you add they have never shared their intelligence as if that’s some kind of disqualifying fact. Sorry, it’s how it works. The agencies almost never share their sources. It’s far to dangerous for the sources and there’s nothing to gain anyway.

    Again, think of the historian in 2025. What’s he going to do with the Brits? He can’t ignore this. The fact is Joe Wilson lied in his own op-ed. 1st he said he proved Saddam didn’t get any yellowcake. Of course that’s logically impossible to prove. 2nd he confirmed Saddam has agents in the Sudan looking for it. A Sudanese minister told him they were inquiring and he turned them down. Now what else would he have said given the fact it was illegal to sell it? The CIA treated that rumor as just that until Wilson confirmed Saddam had people in the Sudan.

    BTW: If your image of Joe Wilson in the Sudan is of James Bonds get over yourself. Joe by his own admission never left his hotel. Joe Wilson was/is a buffoon.

  • rdw56

    Go read Joe Klein in 1.22. It’s a nice way of calling the ‘bush lied’ crowd morons.

  • fhmadvocat

    Frank rdw56,

    History will not be nice to George W. Bush. Even with my limited knowledge of the world, the idea that Shaddam Hussein was associated with Al Quaida which was first reason given for going after him, or that he had Weapons of Mass Destruction, which was the fallback reason for taking him out, flies in the face of common sense.

    Remember when the Soviet Union had all those made of maps of Moscow? Yep, the KGB kept inaccurate maps of Moscow, lest they fall into the enemies hands, they would get lost in trying to conquer the Soviet Union.

    Just the same, while Shaddam was eagerly trying to build weapons, common sense should have told the intelligence community that people were telling Shaddam what he wanted to hear, lest these people be subjected to Shaddam’s “justice”.

    On the Al Quaida front, the CIA noted that Shaddam who was a pan-Arab secular nationalist, was unlikely to hook up with Bin Laden, a Muslim fundamentalist. How many times did Bin Laden refer to Shaddam as an “infidel”? More times than Bush! In fact, the CIA said the only way they would hook up is if Shaddam was attacked and had nothing left to lose!

    So either the Bush administration was a bunch of liars or they were completely incompetent. Neither looks good for Bush.

    The fact that some Liberals believed Bush’s lies just makes them gullible.

  • rdw56

    Saddams agents WERE in the Sudan looking for yellowcake. Joe said so.
    .
    Wrong.
    .
    It was the only piece of usable intelligence he provided.
    .
    Wrong.

    ***********************************

    If you care to do a search of the Washington Post editorials on Joe Wilson. There were at least two, I think three. All shredded him as a lying scumbag. The most recent was when the movie of his wife’s ‘adventure’ came out and they ran a lead editorial in their Sunday edition trashing Joe and the movie as being frauds. I will predict most historians stay away from Joe Wilson. He’s an example of how poorly run the Bush Lied meme was run. The WashPost people hate Joe Wilson.

  • np042

    Your ability to cover your eyes and stick your fingers in your ears until they meet is inspiring.

    You think that’s impressive? Just wait till he gets into a “discussion” on net neutrality or Israel.
    .
    RDW’s main strength, however, is the tangential-topic post. To be honest I’m surprised this thread made it this far without mention of his massive man-crush on Reagan or Dan Rather.

  • sacredh

    “Folks–It’s pretty hilarious that with all we’ve got to think through right now, you’re still so obsessed about the Bush Administration’s decision to go to war”
    .
    It may be an obsession. It’s also current events since we’re since we’re still in Iraq, still spending billions of dollars and still losing lives. If we just let it go and pretend that there aren’t consequences, why would a future President think that he/she couldn’t do it again and get away with it?

  • rdw56

    An editorial headlined “A Good Leak” published in the April 9, 2006 Washington Post claims that “Mr. Wilson was the one guilty of twisting the truth and that, in fact, his report [to the CIA] supported the conclusion that Iraq had sought uranium

  • rdw56

    why would a future President think that he/she couldn’t do it again and get away with it?

    **********************************

    You got GWB re-elected. When you call someone a liar you have to prove it. You accomplished exactly the opposite of what you intended. Joe Klein hates Bush more than you do and he’s telling you to move on. Isn’t that a clue?

  • rdw56

    There’s also Joe Wilson. If i can use Joe I don’t need Dan. If I can use Dan I don’t need Joe. They serve the same purpose.

    BTW: I rarely talk about Net Neutrality. It’s hardly a major issue and it’s not going to happen anyway. This GOP house won’t fund it and if anything they’ll cut the FCC budget.

  • pintortwo

    Your advise to “move on” and simultaneously “learn from the past” is laughable. What exactly have you learned?
    .
    Are you concerned that Obama did not seek Congressional approval? -that Gadaffi poses no threat to the US? -that an extended ground component is likely necessary? -that we were led to believe that the “no fly zone” will require modest US involvement but has instead developed into an intense bombing campaign? -that a successor government may not only be worse for US interests but that it may become “the reason” for extended US intervention, including perhaps military base construction?
    .
    You still reflexively marginalize and demean those that oppose military intervention- they are “unserious”. That tells me that you have learned nothing from the past.

  • pintortwo

    (my comment @ 1.31 was addressed to Mr Klein)

  • afguy

    Go read Joe Klein in 1.22. It’s a nice way of calling the ‘bush lied’ crowd morons.
    .
    Funny, but I interpreted it to mean “Let’s look forward, not backward” because, IIRC, Joe supported that mess when it began.
    .
    In other words, he was “for” it before he was “against” it…
    .
    http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2010/08/06/dismantling-joe-klein/

  • rdw56

    History WILL be kind to GWB regarding the decision to go into Iraq but we won’t know the final story for a while. The meme that he lied is dead as history. They will be coverage of the controversy but not much because it was simply partisan politics and that rarely makes it into history. The fact is he removed a true turd and prevented his perverted sons from taking his place. He also left a functioning democracy.

    The most likely model will be Korea. Chances are as a democracy Iraq will have a much better chance of meeting it’s economic potential and in 20 years will have the strongest and most diverse economy in the middle east outside Israel. One of the greatest pictures of all time is Korea at night. We see the difference between socialism and economic freedom as clear as the nighttime sky. North Korea is pitch black. South Korea is booming and vital.

    GWB freed nearly 30M people from a horrific dictatorship. History will be kind.

  • http://grapemusing.blogspot.com/ grape_crush

    It’s pretty hilarious that with all we’ve got to think through right now, you’re still so obsessed about the Bush Administration’s decision to go to war.
    .
    Actually, we’re more concerned with your definition of ‘lying’, Joe.
    .
    That, and your willingness to brush off that it happened.
    .
    Seriously, what the hell is wrong with you?

  • rdw56

    No, but the person who told him that the evidence was a “slam dunk” did… George Tenet.

    \***************************************

    Actually I don’t think George Tenet lied either. You are really not getting it. This is why the meme has been such a failure. It reminds me of all of the Kennedy conspiracies. Back in the 60′s and 70′s it was a cottage industry. Today it’s Oliver Stone and dozens of other cranks. So it will be in another decade with Bush lied.

  • liberalmeltdown

    Joe 7.1, In a previous comment you say, “let’s move on” and here you are doing the same thing you chided others on this blog for doing: not dealing with our present problems.
    .
    You can’t change the invasion of Iraq, or the money spent, or bring people back to life.
    .
    You also neglect the very real probability that Saddam would have continued his history of insane aggression and destabilization of the Middle East.
    .
    The present problem is that Obama sees the action in Libya as limited. What is the basis for that belief? More wishful thinking? If we Gaddafi in power, it won’t be good and if we remove him; then what? Are we going to do more nation building? OR, let the chips fall where they may? That doesn’t seem like a great idea, since there are factions there that are not exactly our friends.
    .

  • nflfoghorn
  • rdw56

    Quite true but Joe despises Bush as much as you do. He was for it and he rolls out the “I was misled” nonsense as much as anyone. But his problem isn’t bashing Bush on Iraq or anything else it’s on calling him a liar without evidence. It’s a serious charge that demands clear evidence and there isn’t any. Joe does understand how history is written and he understands historians have an ethic they have to live up to that doesn’t pertain to the MSM. No credible historian will call Bush a liar without clearly defined, undeniable proof.

  • nflfoghorn

    RE the WaPo editorial – I think even their position has shifted in the five years since they printed it.

  • pintortwo

    I gotta talk about this too..
    .
    the Bushies were looking for any possible excuse to go to war–even to the point of taking questionable intelligence at face value without investigating it. But the allegation that Bush “lied” about WMD just doesn’t have any dispositive evidence to confirm it..
    .
    What a statement. Treating questionable intel as anything other than unreliable, not seeking corroboration and disregarding dissenting opinion invalidates the process of intelligence reporting- as any rookie agent will undoubtedly know. To do this in order to form an “excuse” to go to war is about as despicable an act as imaginable.
    .
    To knowingly violate clear protocol in order to mislead the public is a lie, no matter what you wish to call it.

  • afguy

    Actually I don’t think George Tenet lied either. You are really not getting it. This is why the meme has been such a failure.
    .
    I guess it’s all a matter of “mistakes were made”…
    .
    I don’t think you get what I’m saying either, because unlike you, this isn’t all some grand “political gamesmanship” to me, with the goal of “winning” by any means available.
    .
    I don’t care about “plausible deniability” and winning elections because the “mis-steps” always seem to meet the “reasonable doubt” thresh-hold about intent. So… they’re not lies.
    .
    They’re “mistakes” or “mis-interpretations” or “errors in judgment”… ANYTHING but lies… because we can always throw up enough dust or smoke the deny any proof of “intent”. Even if it’s staring us right in the face. If it can’t be proven in a court of law, then it didn’t happen… at all.
    .
    So… let’s all move on.. there’s nothing to see here… just put it all behind us… until it happens again, then we’ll just go through the entire denial process again, with the same result.
    .
    And I’m NOT concerned about re-writing the history books so that my favorite politicians can be buried with their legacies re-built.

  • rdw56

    4. According to Klein:

    In retrospect, the issue then was as clear cut as it is now. It demanded a clarity that I failed to summon. The essential principle is immutable: We should never go to war unless we have been attacked or are under direct, immediate threat of attack. Never. And never again.

    *********************************************************

    http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2010/08/06/dismantling-joe-klein/

    **********************************************************

    That was a severe dressing down. I don’t remember seeing that before. Joe once accused Krauthammer of lacking ‘nuance’ on Iraq because unlike Joe, Charles was unable to go to Iraq and get around because he’s in a wheelchair. It was an exceptionally low and stupid comment inviting the immediate comparison to FDR, Joe’s favorite President who ran WWII apparently without nuance. John Podhorentz quickly responded pointing out the FDR thing and noting Joe supported the war and then changed his mind and had mounted a pretty vicious attack on Petraeus and the surge, was clearly wrong and never apologized.

    This is why I like to read Joe. He’s the classic MSM columnist /elitist who made his bones before search engines and can’t adjust. He’s gone after Krauthammer a number of time and CK never responds because his charges are always stupid. When Podhorentz pointed out how sleezy Joes comments were using FDR as exhibit A Joe quickly posted a followup to ‘add context’, realizing he made a total fool of himself. Thomas L Freidman is an even lazier thinker than Joe. These guys seem to forget columns they wrote last week let alone last year.

    During the war Thomas L started a firestorm after writing one line in about a dozen columns over the course of 12-18 months. “The next 6 months will be key…..in Iraq”. Some blogger decided to search on the phrase and did a column on how repetitive Thomas L can be. By now the left was furious with Bush and Tom was getting killed. He was embarrassed and I think it led him to quit Iraq and start focusing on global warming. His writing is horrible. He must have a deal where he can’t be edited. His metaphors are usually nonsensical and he often misuses facts. But at least on this topic he’s harmless. GW is D E A D.

  • rdw56

    guess it’s all a matter of “mistakes were made

    ****************************************

    If you think it was a mistake. Look at Obama. This post is about an act of war by the USA in Libya. He’s kept GWBs entire defense team. He’s kept everyone of his national security policies. He’s changed nothing in Iraq and copied the surge in Afghanistan. Obama has endorsed Bush in a way that is total and complete. Bush could not dream up a more complete vote of confidence than what Obama has provided.

  • rdw56

    history is going to be kind to GWB because he didn’t openly lie about the WM

    ***********************************************

    No, they’re going to be kind for other seasons. Like tax cuts. WMDs are not going to survive history. It as never more than a partisan political issue. That Saddam was a danger has never been questioned. That Saddam would use them if he had them had been proven. This was an extremely evil man with two kids who were much worse and in line for power.

    To the extent WMDs are part of the history of Iraq it will be as a political loser for democrats. How many were for it before they were against it?

  • rdw56

    I think even their position has shifted in the five years since they printed it.

    ********************************
    They’re harsher:

    Hollywood myth-making on Valerie Plame controversy

    Friday, December 3, 2010; 8:54 PM

    WE’RE NOT in the habit of writing movie reviews. But the recently released film “Fair Game” – which covers a poisonous Washington controversy during the war in Iraq – deserves some editorial page comment, if only because of what its promoters are saying about it. The protagonists portrayed in the movie, former diplomat Joseph C. Wilson IV and former spy Valerie Plame, claim that it tells the true story of their battle with the Bush administration over Iraqi weapons of mass destruction and Ms. Plame’s exposure as a CIA agent. “It’s accurate,” Ms. Plame told The Post. Said Mr. Wilson: “For people who have short memories or don’t read, this is the only way they will remember that period.”

    We certainly hope that is not the case. In fact, “Fair Game,” based on books by Mr. Wilson and his wife, is full of distortions – not to mention outright inventions. To start with the most sensational: The movie portrays Ms. Plame as having cultivated a group of Iraqi scientists and arranged for them to leave the country, and it suggests that once her cover was blown, the operation was aborted and the scientists were abandoned. This is simply false. In reality, as The Post’s Walter Pincus and Richard Leiby reported, Ms. Plame did not work directly on the program, and it was not shut down because of her identification.

    The movie portrays Mr. Wilson as a whistle-blower who debunked a Bush administration claim that Iraq had tried to purchase uranium from the African country of Niger. In fact, an investigation by the Senate intelligence committee found that Mr. Wilson’s reporting did not affect the intelligence community’s view on the matter, and an official British investigation found that President George W. Bush’s statement in a State of the Union address that Britain believed that Iraq had sought uranium in Niger was well-founded.
    ad_icon

    “Fair Game” also resells the couple’s story that Ms. Plame’s exposure was the result of a White House conspiracy. A lengthy and wasteful investigation by a special prosecutor found no such conspiracy – but it did confirm that the prime source of a newspaper column identifying Ms. Plame was a State Department official, not a White House political operative.

    Hollywood has a habit of making movies about historical events without regard for the truth; “Fair Game” is just one more example. But the film’s reception illustrates a more troubling trend of political debates in Washington in which established facts are willfully ignored. Mr. Wilson claimed that he had proved that Mr. Bush deliberately twisted the truth about Iraq, and he was eagerly embraced by those who insist the former president lied the country into a war. Though it was long ago established that Mr. Wilson himself was not telling the truth – not about his mission to Niger and not about his wife – the myth endures. We’ll join the former president in hoping that future historians get it right.

  • shepherdwong

    No credible historian will call Bush a liar without clearly defined, undeniable proof.

    “Actually, I think [Bush’s] presidency may exceed the disaster that was Nixon. He has systematically lied to the American public about almost every policy that his administration promotes.”

    “He is blatantly a puppet for corporate interests, who care only about their own greed and have no sense of civic responsibility or community service. He lies, constantly and often, seemingly without control, and he lied about his invasion into a sovereign country, again for corporate interests; many people have died and been maimed, and that has been lied about too. He grandstands and mugs in a shameful manner, befitting a snake oil salesman, not a statesman. He does not think, process, or speak well, and is emotionally immature due to, among other things, his lack of recovery from substance abuse. The term is “dry drunk”. He is an abject embarrassment/pariah overseas; the rest of the world hates him . . . . . He is, by far, the most irresponsible, unethical, inexcusable occupant of our formerly highest office in the land that there has ever been.”

    Misled (to use the most charitable word and interpretation) the American public about weapons of mass destruction and supposed ties to Al Qaeda in Iraq and so into a war that has plainly (and entirely predictably) made us less secure, caused a boom in the recruitment of terrorists, is killing American military personnel needlessly, and is threatening to suck up all our available military forces and be a bottomless pit for the money of American taxpayers for years to come.

    http://hnn.us/articles/5019.html

  • rdw56

    Regarding Fair Game:

    IN a long and great history of Hollywood and the Bush administration this has to be the 25th movie designed to bash Bush that totally bombed. All were box office disasters many with major stars. If they cost $50M per film that’s $1B of liberal cash pissed down a drain. The movie ‘W” is on cable a lot and I’ll watch is periodically to laugh at how bad it is. I can’t imagine what it’s to be liberal and filled with such rage. The film makes GWB out to be a total moron. The guy beat you in 4 elections. If he’s a moron what’s that make you??? Another cool aspect is all of the films got really good ratings. Roger Ebert is a well known hater loved them all. These people are so obvious. No one went to these movies. The people ignored the critics. Why kill your own credibility.

    There was a movie out about the 2001 election with Kevin Spacey and Denins leary called recount that I enjoyed watching because my side won. Spacey produced. I didn’t think it was very good as a film but for a conservative it’s all good memories. I’d have to think it’s torture for a liberal.

  • rdw56

    Interesting note:

    Contemporary historians will have nothing to say on Bush. They suck at contemporary evaluations because they are as invested emotionally as any partisan and they lean very far left. Douglas Brinkley wrote a bio of John Kerry that was a total disaster. Even historians will admit their opinions on contempories are worthless. If you look back since WWII they got almost everyone wrong. Truman and Ike were considered 2nd tier leaders who now are ranked in the top 10. JFK was ranked in the top 5 at one point and only recently has fallen out of the top 10. He doesn’t belong in the top half and in another decade won’t be there. Reagan was despised and now he’s in the top 10. Clinton is probably the only guy with a fair assessment of average. He won’t ever be above average or below average. In 30 years he won’t be remembered at all except for Monica.

  • nflfoghorn

    RDW @1.38 – Why do YOU care how much box office it made? Do you feel threatened?

  • afguy

    He gets excited over some very STRANGE things than have “nada” with ability to govern.
    .
    Seems to be ALL about “winning” whatever… or just scoring points of some sort.

  • shepherdwong

    Contemporary historians will have nothing to say on Bush.
    .
    You’re a complete loon.

  • nflfoghorn

    CSS: Charlie Sheen Syndrome ;)

  • rdw56

    BTW: Watch Wilsons ranking drop like a stone. The citations of Hillary and Obama as progressives and the look back at his administration has been a disaster for him. Actually it’s not be good for historians either. I was taught the 14 points were a huge success and he ended the war. He was supposed to be a brilliant man far ahead of his time. That academic would greatly favor a man of their background should not surprise but how far they went to lie was a shocker.

    1st off he was an avowed and nasty racist. So much so he can’t be defended today. Not by politically correct academics. So their pattern of writing only glowing reports will reverse, if they write anything at all. He resegregated the post office and more. That alone will drop his 25 spots in the rankings. I was 50 before I learned this. The History Channel also has a special on the 1919 peace talks that is quite corrosive. I did not know that Lord Maynard Keynes walked out of the talks because Wilsons peace plans would devastate the Germans and he could not get Wilson to relent. We now know that set the table for WWII.

    I will predict that over the next decade Wilson won’t get much attention from historians because this loathsome aspect of his racism is now widely known. It’s going to be near impossible for liberal historians to say anything positive about him so they’ll just abandon him and he’ll be described by conservatives and they will cover his racism and his disasterous peace plan. The History Channel special made him into a pretty nasty guy. This was not a nice man. He will end up in the bottom 10.

  • rdw56

    Not at all. I’ve made the point 1,000 times I think the liberal press and hollywood especially do more harm to their cause that good. GWB and Reagan loved being misunderestimated.

    Even George Clooney recognizes the limitations of his persona. He refuses to campaign for politicians understanding it makes the politician look less serious.

    There was a really cool story here in PA in 2004 about one day when both Bush and Kerry were scheduled to make an appearance in Scranton. GWBs team understood the terrain and timing much better than Kerry’s. He had his appearance at 8:00AM and Kerry was 9:30. GWBs audience had to be in their seats by 7:00AM Kerrys 8:30. GWB’s audience missed rush hour and they were sure to have coffee and donuts at the concessions (phillies minor league affiate). GWB and Laura popped out of the dugout at 8:00 on the dot. They had a movie and a couple of speakers warming up the crowd. Kerry had Ben Afleck, no concessions, a crowd annoyed at the bumper to bumper traffic they had to endure, etc and Kerry was late. Ben had to adlib for 1/2 hour. He’s a smart guy but this wasn’t fair to him or the crowd.

    You want to call GWB stupid you just go right ahead. Just understand that if you meet him and have any class at all you’ll call him Mr. President.

    BTW: I’ve see parts of recount 5x’s. It’s not really a very good movie but I love the ending. Warren Christopher was pissed off at his portrayal and rightly so. Gore was an idiot. He was making the stupid decisions that ended the recount like only asking for a recount in liberal districts managed by liberal politicians. Gore consistently muddled in things best left to legal experts and made bad decisions. Baker cleaned his clock. I enjoy following the supreme court as well and Gore v Bush and Citizens United are two decisions I can’t read enough about. I think it was jeffrey Tobin who recently wrote about Bush/Gore with all of the anger he felt in 2000.

  • rdw56

    You’re a complete loon.

    *************************************

    No, it’s a well established truism historians put too much of their own emotions into contemporary figures. The goal if writing history is accuracy and objectivity. I use the example of Douglas Brinkley because it’s recent and so definitive. It was a really bad bio he never should have written. As a man with no military experience himself and little contact with military types he was unable to evaluate Kerry’s Vietnam journals and lacked the commonsense to do some of his own fact checking. It’s common for all of us when writing about ourselves to put everything in a positive light and omit negative details. Douglas never appreciated his purple hearts were a scam to get an early out of Vietnam. He didn’t know how the awards process worked and that his own commanders refuse to nominate him for the medals. Kerry had to nominate himself without their knowledge. Because Brinkley just accepted everything Kerry wrote about himself he really thought Kerry was a hero. Further, after reading the book, so to did Kerrys campaign manager thus the constant positioning of hm as a proud war vet and hero.

    That’s a true story. We know what happened next. I think Kerry was a bad candidate anyway but that killed him. Had he just said, I served honorably, in Vietnam, which is what GWB said of him, he would have been fine.

    I think liberals killed themselves on this story and perhaps worse on the Rather fraud. Both motivated by the image of liberals as anti-war sissies. You tried stupidly to diminish GWBs service and boost Kerry’s and in both cases were utterly clueless.

  • rdw56

    Why do YOU care how much box office it made?

    **************************************

    In another sign of media losing it’s control of history Kevin Costner made another movie of the Cuban Missile Crises that while still making JFK more heroic that reality is far better than previous movies that now are laughable they’re so bad. This 2000 effort at least covers the bribe Kennedy paid to get the Russians to remove their missile by removing ours from Turkey. Still, liberals have this need to portray everyone in military with a rank of general was a madman anxious to nuke the world.

  • shepherdwong

    You’re also a miserable partisan @sshole.

    “For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity in action while serving as Officer in Charge of United States Navy Patrol Craft Fast 94 and officer in Tactical Command of an operation in the Republic of Vietnam. On 28 February 1969, Patrol Craft Fast 23, 43 and 94, in conjunction with Underwater Demolition Team 13 and Vietnamese Regional and Popular Forces personnel, conducted an operation on the Ca Mau Peninsula as part of Operation SEA LORDS. While transiting the Bay Hap River en route to an insertion point along the Dong Cung River, these craft with thirty Regional/Popular Force personnel embarked in each unit came under heavy enemy small arms fire from the river banks. The Officer in Tactical Command, Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY directed his units to turn to the beach and charge the Viet Cong positions. Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY expertly directed the fire of his craft at the fleeing enemy while simultaneously coordinating the insertion of the embarked troops. While the Regional and Popular Forces conducted an area sweep, Patrol Craft Fast 43 remained on station to provide fire support and Patrol Craft Fast 23 and 94 moved upstream to investigate an area from which gunshots were coming. Arriving at the area, Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY’s craft received a B-40 rocket close aboard. Once again Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY ordered his units to charge the enemy positions and summoned Patrol Craft Fast 43 to the area to provide additional firepower. Patrol Craft Fast 94 then beached in the center of the enemy positions and an enemy soldier sprang up from his position not ten feet from Patrol Craft Fast 94 and fled. Without hesitation Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY leaped ashore, pursued the man behind a hootch and killed him, capturing a B-40 rocket launcher with a round in the chamber. Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY then led an assault party and conducted a sweep of the area while the Patrol Craft Fast continued to provide fire support. After the enemy had been completely routed, all personnel returned to the Patrol Craft Fast to withdraw from the area. While backing off the beach, these units again came under a hail of fire, this time from the opposite river bank. Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY immediately coordinated the firepower of his units and supressed the enemy fire. Later, after disembarking personnel, and while exiting from the Bay Hap River, the Patrol Craft Fast were again under fire. Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY immediately maneuvered his craft through several strafing runs which completely silenced the enemy. As a result of this operation, ten Viet Cong were killed and one wounded with no friendly casualties. In addition, numerous sampans, structures and bunkers were destroyed as well as confiscation of substantial quantities of combat essential supplies. Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY’s devotion to duty, courage under fire, outstanding leadership, and exemplary professionalism directly contributed to the success of this operation and were in keeping with the highest traditions of the Unites States Naval Service.”
    .
    –John Kerry’s Silver Star citation

    As it happens George W. Bush deserted the National Guard gig his daddy got for him to keep his sorry @ss out of the war, probably to avoid a positive drug test at his required physical.
    .
    http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/service.asp

  • np042

    BTW: I rarely talk about Net Neutrality

    But when you do you go on for 300 comments after admitting you don’t know what you’re talking about. That’s the point I was getting at.

  • rdw56

    Sorry Shep, kerry received 3 purple hearts without needing so much as a band-aid or an aspirin for any of his ‘wounds’. What he was trying to do, and did, was get 3 purple hearts to get sent him. He only did 4 months of an expected 12 month tour. Kerry played the system. Douglas Brinkley and Bob Schrum never served and had no way of knowing. We found out didn’t we?

    He also lied through his teeth about Xmas in Cambodia. He said he listened to Nxion lie about US involvement in Cambodia one Xmas even when he was actually in Cambodia. Pity, the dumb b*stard was talking about December of 1968 and Nixon wasn’t President yet. It was a great story he told for 25 years. And a complete and exceptionally stupid fabrication.

  • rdw56

    That’s the point I was getting at.

    *****************************************

    Well since I rarely talk about net netruality and have never addressed the specific’s you didn’t make any point. All I ever said about it is I don’t want the FCC involved in anyway. And I’m going to get my way.

  • rdw56

    As it happens George W. Bush deserted the National Guard gig his daddy got for him to keep his sorry @ss out of the war, probably to avoid a positive drug test at his required physical.

    ******************************************************

    Actually he didn’t desert and this is why/how Dan Rather committed hari karri. God I love that story. The funny thing about the weekend in Alabama is liberals just would not let it go. Bush was only able to find records of a dental exam. Well if his teeth were there so was he. Dan Rather eventually cost CBS > 1M viewers and more than $1B in market value. Think about that $1,000,000,000.00.

    Word is the perky one will be let go when her 5-yr contract is up because ratings have continued to drop. Some nights Oreilly outdraws CBS news.

  • rdw56

    The cost of Iraq doesn’t weaken the position of the deficit hawks even a little bit. The deficit hawks are focused on the explosion of discretional federal spending under Bush and then Obama. It doesn’t effect that argument in anyway.

  • afguy

    Still, liberals have this need to portray everyone in military with a rank of general was a madman anxious to nuke the world.
    .
    Really? Must have missed that memo… last I was told is that we have to show them as “blood-sucking vampires”…

  • afguy

    Even I don’t believe he deserted the Guard (why would anyone during that time want to? The alternative was to see sunny SE Asia.)
    .
    I do believe that GHWB got him into a branch of service with zero chance of overseas deployment, to fly a plane that had virtually zero chance of seeing combat. One did NOT get into any branch of the Guard at that time without “recommendations” from someone.
    .
    Just the way the system worked….
    .
    And I find it quite plausible that, with the right calls from the right people, he could get released for campaign work.
    .
    Once again, that was the way it “worked”.

  • pintortwo

    If you think it was a mistake. Look at Obama. This post is about an act of war by the USA in Libya. He’s kept GWBs entire defense team. He’s kept everyone of his national security policies. He’s changed nothing in Iraq and copied the surge in Afghanistan. Obama has endorsed Bush in a way that is total and complete. Bush could not dream up a more complete vote of confidence than what Obama has provided.
    .
    You are absolutely right, rdw.
    .
    What you don’t realize is that you make the case for continuing the “Bush lied” theme. And for prosecuting war crimes too. And against Joe’s fluff-piece above (and most of his peers’ work). Not to score political points (which some will try to do), but to learn from the past and try to prevent similar atrocities from happening again.
    .
    The neocons are, no doubt, thrilled with Obama. He wasn’t kidding when he said he’d “finish the job” in Afghanistan (well, continue it at least, because we’ll be doing the neocon’s job for decades to come). I feel obligated to push back.

  • sacredh

    “You accomplished exactly the opposite of what you intended. Joe Klein hates Bush more than you do and he’s telling you to move on. Isn’t that a clue?”
    .
    The only thing I intended to accomplish was to express my opinion. No offense intended toward JK, but he doesn’t shape my opinions anymore than I shape his. I read Joe’s articles because I’m interested in hearing his take. Any influence is minimal. Not just from JK, from anybody. I don’t take my “clues” on what to think from anyone. I’m able to read, weigh the facts and then draw my own conclusions and form my own opinions. This isn’t a subject that people need to “move on” from. It’s a subject that we need to make sure doesn’t happen again.

  • rdw56

    You are absolutely right, rdw.

    ********************************************

    That had to hurt.

    Neocons are not thrilled with Obama. While his decisions have ended up mostly right regarding Afghanistan, Iraq and even Libya he dithered in almost each case to get there. It pretty embarrassing when the French provide the balls. He thinks the message to the muslim world will be, “This wasn’t our idea” but more likely it’ll be a sign of indecision and weakness and in the end the weapons used will be traced to the USA. He seems to have both a political problem and hos own personal problem is supporting war and the military. Public support for Afghanistan is well below 50% in part because he won’t discuss it publicly in a way that promotes the effort. That’s a mistake and a failure of leadership. If he doesn’t believe in it he should end it.

  • rdw56

    I do believe that GHWB got him into a branch of service with zero chance of overseas deployment, to fly a plane that had virtually zero chance of seeing combat.

    *********************************************

    Well you are wrong on everything. It wasn’t hard to get into the Guard to be a fighter pilot and at the time he signed up he had no way of knowing if he’d get called to duty in Vietnam or not. There isn’t a shred of evidence his father lifted a finger to help him in anyway and from what we do know of GHWB it’s highly unlikely.

    The thing that made this such a total disaster for liberals it most of the people making the charges were liberals who didn’t serve themselves. Bush handled the matter with total class. When asked to release all of his records he did so immediately without hesitation. Kerry STILL has not released his records. This was after liberals voted into an office a man that admitted he scammed his draft board to avoid any service. It’s always going to be a bad issue for liberals. In Al Gore he rn against a man who went to vietnam as a journalist in the army when he daddy was in the Senate. Al was there 7 months. Every hear of a 7 month tour? Me neither.
    .
    Bush got an honorable discharge and it was always absurd for liberals to attack his service. I can’t go over that 2004 election to many times. Or the Dan Rather story and Xmas in Cambodia or Kerrys purple hearts. Your hatred and stupidity cost you the 2000 and 2004 elections.

  • rdw56

    It’s just so predictable. In this movie it was cartoonish.

    One of the really neat things about Petraeus is his doctorate from Princteton says one thing about him that liberals can’t attack yet as a general he’s the most aggressive warrior we’ve had since Patton. The surge wasn’t about adding 30,000 troops. It was about adding 30,000 troops to the 130,000 already there and getting them out of the base and killing people. Petraeus is the anti-Powell. He’s not interesting in over-whelming forces to prevent war. He wants to fight to win and you win by killing the other guy. He comes off as a school teacher, a professor. He’s a killer.

    Liberals don’t know how to deal with him. They can’t trash him. He is a certified war hero and he can leap tall buildings in a single bound. He is authentically brilliant and an excellent communicator. The new mold of professional soldier is something Hollywood simply won’t be able to deal with. What hollywood star or producer do you think can take on Petraeus intellectually? There’s no way. He’s untouchable. It’s shocking how badly hollywood did with Bush. There had to be two dozen movies designed to trash him or the war and all of them bombed. I guess you’d have to give Michael Moore for the commercial success of Farenheight 9/11 but it was a political bomb. Tom Daschle lost his job because he posed at the DC Premiere with Moore and the folks back home despise fatboy. Actually, it was hilarious one of his next movies was an anti-capitalist screed. How perfect was that? Moore pockets $200M touring Europe telling people how stupid Americans are. They buy his tickets and his next movie trashed the system that made him $200M. If Moore wasn’t liberal what could he be?

  • hippooath

    “already there and getting them out of the base and killing people.” etc etc
    .
    Have anyone told you lately (and often enough) just how dumb you ‘sound’?
    .
    16-17 years old? I mean I don’t think you’re a functional adult because all you write are long rants and drivel that reads like a demented comic book (watched the movie seven when they check out the guys diaries?). You’re even a nightmare to someone like Palin who don’t want to be associated with a Catholic who pretend being a atheist while knowing basically nothing about being a human.
    .
    Patreus called me and swore that while they’re a lot of idiots in the world and some that even pretend that speak for him, you’re about the last person in the world he would ever procreate with – if you were a chick. Since you’re not he won’t even have to worry about that remote scenario.
    .
    I know – this was really mean – but while I can laugh inside when freeinpa, paule and the rest of the crew do their little rightie slighted victim routine, you just read like nails on a mental chalkboard. A lot of screeching with absolutely no meaning other than headache to follow. I know – now you will write something boorish ‘it’s because I’m right’. No – the screeching sound isn’t my brain trying to stop your intellectual babble from infecting me, it’s more like my brain is dry heaving from trying to get rid of a nasty brain bug.
    .
    Anyways – carry on.

  • rdw56

    I wish I was 17. The point about Petraeus is a critical one. He’s changed how the military operates. He is the opposite of Powell and the other bureaucrats. He is the return of Patton. The ideas isn’t to die for country. The idea is to make the other SOB die for his. Petraeus strategy is hyper-aggressive on the offense. He took the men off the bases and put them into the civilian areas where Al Qaeda and other insurgent groups were operating to hunt them down and kill them. He did. We won.

  • wagedronenumber9

    Joe Klein @ 1.22

    Folks–It’s pretty hilarious that with all we’ve got to think through right now, you’re still so obsessed about the Bush Administration’s decision to go to war.

    Conservatives have been trying to rewrite history to fit their own narrative for awhile now, so any lengthy discussion on the Bush presidency shouldn’t shock anyone because the right thinks it is important to control history. Glen Beck is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to advancing ideological revision of history.

    And, no doubt, the Bushies were looking for any possible excuse to go to war–even to the point of taking questionable intelligence at face value without investigating it. But the allegation that Bush “lied” about WMD just doesn’t have any dispositive evidence to confirm it–I mean, were the French, who also believed Saddam had WMD, lying too?

    Bob Woodward states that arguments to take out Saddam began in the Bush administration soon after 9/11. The administration not only got questionable intelligence, they also got good intelligence which they knowingly ignored. So, isn’t is safe to say that they were lying to themselves about the situation in Iraq?

    This “lying or not” argument aside, the important thing about the Iraq invasion is that Iraq didn’t first do anything to provoke the US to invade. We invaded on the suspicion of it being able to something, which is a major foreign policy shift for the country.

  • wagedronenumber9

    I’ll be spending the next two weeks in the Middle East. The blogging may be sporadic…but I promise that when I return, I’ll be spending a lot more time on the road in the middle west.

    In case you are interested, Joe Klein, on 3/22, Tony Kornheiser interviewed Marc Fisher of the Washington Post who had just spent time in Tunisia & Egypt and he said that a lot of people say that Obama’s speech in Cairo was the spark that started the mid-east movements and that people are very contradictory on what role they want the US to have in their world.

    In the mid-west I hope you ask people what they think about the Wisconsin situation. Hmm, I seem to remember when you were traveling around last year how you were surprised that people weren’t interested in Iraq at all. And please don’t post what songs you are listening to as you drive around because, frankly, who cares??ZZZZZ

  • tomdegan

    They are trying to make us believe that this incursion into Libya is to protect the people of that country. Yeah. I was born very early in the morning – but it wasn’t this morning:

    http://www.tomdegan.blogspot.com

    Tom Degan

  • np042

    All I ever said about it is I don’t want the FCC involved in anyway.

    Yes, right after you admitted you don’t know what net neutrality is or what the FCC intended to do. You are totally, completely, and possibly irrevocable, willfully ignorant on the subject.

  • rdw56

    . You are totally, completely, and possibly irrevocable, willfully ignorant on the subject.

    ********************************************

    That’s not true. I am aware of the FCCs attempts to justify their existence. It’s what all govt bureaucracies do. My problem is fundamental. I don’t want the FCC expanding it’s reach in anyway. They are about 5x’s as large as they need to be. The internet has been doing fabulous without them.

  • rockymd

    way to go .Now we are all barbarians. Hoping for assassination as a tool of foreign policy. Gandhi had it about right re western civilization-he was for it.

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