War of Ideas (or Why We Went to War, Part II)

The U.S. is engaged in a dangerous conflict over Libya and no doubt the president decided to intervene and is prosecuting the war first and foremost in pursuit of the aims he outlined in his “casus belli” paragraph last Friday: preventing atrocities and a humanitarian crisis, averting regional destabilization, and blunting a threat to democratic movements elsewhere.

But Obama went to war in support of larger ideas and he is prosecuting the war that way as well. The last item in his case for war Friday was that if the U.S. didn’t act, “The words of the international community would be rendered hollow.” Ben Rhodes of the National Security Council later explained that Obama meant to ensure “the ability of collective action to be a tool in circumstances like this.”

Yesterday in Chile the president himself argued that the U.S. was acting in support of an idea. “The core principle that has to be upheld here is that when the entire international community almost unanimously says that there is a potential humanitarian crisis about to take place, that a leader who has lost his legitimacy, decides to turn his military on his own people, that we can’t simply stand by with empty words; that we have to take some sort of action.”

Obama’s staff is very uncomfortable with the notion of going to war for an idea and were bitterly critical of my post yesterday (though they declined to say anything for the record). They shouldn’t be. It’s hardly the first time America went to war in part for an idea. A central element of the argument for going to war in Iraq was to uphold multiple U.N. resolutions (that is, the idea of international law). But the staffers have a larger problem on their hands, which is that Obama not only went to war in part for an idea but is limiting the prosecution of the war in support of an idea as well. And explaining that intellectual approach to a baffled public is hard.

American policy is that Gaddafi should be removed from power. But Obama is interpreting U.N. resolution 1973, which authorized the intervention, to stop short of green-lighting Gaddafi’s removal. He believes it only allows military action to protect civilians. Therefore, he explained yesterday, “when it comes to our military action, we are doing so in support of U.N. Security Resolution 1973. That specifically talks about humanitarian efforts. And we are going to make sure that we stick to that mandate.” So no targeting Gaddafi with smart bombs or ousting him with special forces.

The British apparently disagree with that interpretation, but for U.S. political purposes, what matters is that Obama is again acting to strengthen an idea: that international limits apply when one goes to war. Of course, that’s not a very controversial idea either. The U.S. has long supported the Geneva conventions and the laws of war. But George W. Bush embraced interrogation techniques the U.S. had previously said were illegal, used of force outside a U.N. mandate and refused to comply with elements of the Geneva conventions, like providing access to the ICRC to prisoners. So Americans may have forgotten that the U.S. once played strictly by the rules of international law. (Of course, Bush was acting in support of an idea as well: that international constraints on the U.S. were a threat to its national security).

It doesn’t help the president or his aides that Democrats have been attacked as national security wussies for decades. It also doesn’t help that some Republicans criticize Democrats for pursuing what they say is an overly legalistic, as opposed to martial, way of fighting terrorists.

But whether it likes it or not, the administration will have to defend the ideas guiding this war: that the power to prevent atrocities is important and that just as we impose limits on how our police use force at home, there are limits on how our troops use force abroad. Indeed the only way the administration can defend the specific limits it is choosing to adhere to in Libya is by defending the ideas behind them. It is short-sighted and also a losing proposition to pretend we are not fighting for ideas. Popular support depends on explaining why they are worth fighting for.

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  • freeinpa

    “or Why We Went to War”
    .
    To take people’s minds off of:

    1) the economy

    2) the budget deficit

    3) the national debt

    4) High gas and food prices

    5) the empty suit that uses the WH between travel

  • allthingsinaname

    Frankly I am not interested in most of these posts. We went to war in a limited fashion and it is not practical that we stop a couple days into it.
    .
    I like a lot of folks, I suspect, have my reservations, but now it is a wait and see what happens situation. I hope it turns out ok, if not then we shall see.

  • nflfoghorn

    I take it RustFreep wants the previous liar back.

  • freeinpa

    You can’t make this stuff up. You got a winner of the Gaddafi Prize for HUman Rights calling for the recall of a Nobel Prize winner for being involved in more wars than the man he bashed for years while voting present in the Senate.

    Liberal Democratic Party of Russia leader and Vice-Chairman of the State Duma Vladimir Zhirinovsky released a statement today calling for the Nobel Prize Committee to take back the honour bestowed on US President Barack Obama in 2009.
    Zhirinovsky said the attacks were “another outrageous act of aggression by NATO forces and, in particular, the United States,” and that the attacks demonstrated a “colonial policy” with “one goal: to establish control over Libyan oil and the Libyan regime.” He said the prize was now hypocritical as a result.
    Bolivian President Evo Morales echoed the call: “How is it possible that a Nobel Peace Prize winner leads a gang to attack and invade? This is not a defence of human rights or self-determination.”
    Morales won the Gaddafi International Prize for Human Rights in 2006.

    Read more: http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/304909#ixzz1HL80cVAC

  • chupkar

    I just don’t get these posts. It seems to me the public is not nearly as baffled as the press and the politicians. I’m sorry, but you wouldn’t have the poll results we do if people were “baffled”. Air OK, no ground troups, rebels happy, 70% US ok with it. It just does not seem that hard to understand. No made up WMD to get us there. No long months and months lead up. Everyone who was complaining 2 weeks ago we were moving too slow is now all “Whoooooa there, cowboy!”. Arrrrrgh.

  • http://shortplaysaboutrealpeople.wordpress.com Michael Maiello

    I don’t see what’s so complicated here. U.S. policy is not that we should remove Gadhafi from power, it’s that Gadhafi should step down.

    The UN decided to act to protect Libyan civilians and the U.S. chose to participate in that action, under the terms of the resolution that authorizes it.

    Because this limits Gadhafi’s military choices and because many of the rebels are also Libyan civilians, this de facto means siding with the rebels, but that doesn’t mean doing the work of removing Gadhafi for them.

    If Gadhafi makes the mistake of standing where we were going to bomb anyway, the whole discussion will be moot.

    I happen to disagree with our involvement here but I don’t really think the situation is especially difficult to explain to people. It’s complicated, yes. It’s nuanced, yes. But plain language explanations should be child’s play for journalist’s at Time.

  • http://shortplaysaboutrealpeople.wordpress.com Michael Maiello

    I should strike “I don’t see what’s so complicated here.” I do see what’s complicated, I just don’t think that it’s so complicated as to be inexplicable.

  • nflfoghorn

    Maybe this is Limbaugh under an alias.

  • freeinpa

    “I don’t see what’s so complicated here. U.S. policy is not that we should remove Gadhafi from power, it’s that Gadhafi should step down.”
    .
    And when does the First Tourist send Gadhafi the letter asking him to “step down, pretty please”?

  • freeinpa

    No I am glad Clinton is gone

  • freeinpa

    What?

  • nflfoghorn

    That explains those halos around W’s and Dick’s necks….

  • nflfoghorn

    You either parrot him or ARE him….

  • http://grapemusing.blogspot.com/ grape_crush

    And explaining that intellectual approach to a baffled public is hard.

    Maybe we’re not the ones that are baffled?

    If it’s hard to explain someone else’s intellectual approach to an issue, it’s not the person with the intellectual approach’s problem, is it? Seriously, do you reporters need to be spoon-fed?

    Oh, and it’s refreshing to see all this media angst early on in this event. Much better than waiting until it’s later to question what’s going on, or to not ask serious questions beforehand, or to not question whether such action is based on sound principles in the first place.

    Very refreshing, Calabresi.

  • freeinpa

    Well you are wrong again on both counts which is no surprise

  • centfan

    I think what is complicated is what happens a month from now. Why do we always see these things ending like a 1940′s movie? Bad guys go boom, hero gets the girl, buys a farm, and raises chickens.
    -
    I see tanks and artillery parked in garages until things blow over. I see house to house fighting and rebels lining folks not of their exact ethnicity up against a wall and shooting them in the back of the head. I see everyone out for themselves because nobody has the guts to take control and create a mutually beneficial governing arrangement just like no one in Libya in the last 40 years had the guts to shoot Gaddafi (who in some circles is the great anti-imperialist savior).
    -
    The folks getting blown up by our bombs are Libyans too regardless of their methods. If it’s civil war so be it. I believe Europe picked the Confederates in our civil war.

  • michaelfury

    “the ideas guiding this war: that the power to prevent atrocities is important and that just as we impose limits on how our police use force at home, there are limits on how our troops use force abroad”

    caw

    http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2011/03/14/any-questions/

  • allthingsinaname

    Oh I do not know Grape. We had a long discussion on Iraq before that war and the conclusion was wrong. I just do not think that the Press or the Public is up to the task. Like it or not we are all along just for the ride.

  • http://grapemusing.blogspot.com/ grape_crush

    We had a long discussion on Iraq before that war and the conclusion was wrong.
    .
    The conclusion was wrong because the discussion was dumb and based on false pretenses. The discussion – the one happening in the straight media – wasn’t about whether or not Saddam had WMD he intended to use on US civilians, it was about how should we best confront that (non-)existent threat. Read the CNN link I posted above; good detail on all the players and positions present in the lopsided debate, but no questioning whether or not the basis of the debate – the reasons why we were going to war – were valid. Mindless reporting.
    .
    And most people, like me, bought into that dumb discussion because we had faith that our leadership, no matter what their party affiliation was, wouldn’t f*ck around with national security…suckers, all of us.

  • nflfoghorn

    You and the fat man disagree?? On what, exactly–dinnertime??

  • nflfoghorn

    Don’t mean to sound all Mike Fury on you, but don’t you think the threat behind the War on Terror was grossly exaggerated to suit W’s and Dick’s tastes? The 9/11 thugs didn’t use bombs, missles, RPGs, etc., that they smuggled into the country. They used our own airplanes. Iraq was simply a means to a selfish end…nothing to do with terrorism. If it was, OBL would’ve been captured in Tora Bora.

  • allthingsinaname

    And the discussions are still dumb. God yesterday we had, what, 3 or 4 post on Rebels being Civilians or not. Could it make a difference? I mean are we going to have military operations or not? Do we wait for Gadahffi to fight his way through the Rebels in the towns then blow up the town?
    .
    Are we going to war over an Idea? Sure we are, what the hell is the point of this thread then? It is not refreshing, it is redundant.
    .
    Is it Obama’s down fall or not? Do I care? Do I go to war worried about how the President would be perceived ? How absurd.
    .
    Is the cause just? Is it winnable? Will we destroy the population in the process? How will we prosecute the war? What will we accomplish? I struggle with those questions.

  • http://getmydrift68.wordpress.com driftwood929

    This thing may very well wind up like the other two. Military forces rebuilding a country we bombed to pieces, while trying to keep a bunch tribal loyalists from killing each other, as we are being killed by insurgents funded and dispatched by the muslim terrorist network. All the while energy and food costs will rise globally. Does anyone honestly foresee the current dictator deposed and a peaceful governing body magically finding its way into place as the Libyan people say thankyou, waving goodbye as we all fly back home.

  • liberalmeltdown

    Going to war in a “limited” capacity is a formula for disaster. War by international committee isn’t going to work. As we have seen, British forces have a different plan for the colonel (this guy apparently has an unlimited number of ways to spell his name).
    .
    “We” is laughable. There is no “we.” Again, we will see the “international community” pull back and leave us holding the bag. Where is the Arab League? They are trying to decide how to best play their hand. France will give up first and then England.
    .
    If we aren’t there to remove the colonel, what is the “limited” mission? Protection? of who? The rebels? Everybody else and not the rebels? Since we don’t really want to remove Gaddafi, but we want him to leave, how do you accomplish that? I think Obama already had Gaddafi gone in the first round of his picks.

  • freeinpa

    Don’t know. I don’t listen to him but apparently you are a big follower

  • afguy

    “We” is laughable.
    .
    No.. YOU is laughable. Thoroughly so.

  • nflfoghorn

    ….and at that very hour, the cock crew.

  • fhmadvocat

    So, are these the reasons George W. Bush invaded Iraq?

  • afguy

    (this guy apparently has an unlimited number of ways to spell his name).
    .
    Read a book on alternate spellings due to language and translational differences.
    .
    You might be enlightened… everything in the world isn’t written with YOUR sensibilities and thought processes in mind, meltdown…

  • fhmadvocat

    So Gaddafi have an international human rights prize. That’s kind of like Hugh Hefner giving a prize for chastity.

  • fhmadvocat

    afguy,

    I agree with liberalmeltdown. Granted that’s not likely to happen again, but we don’t have a game plan. Bush did not have a game plan for Iraq and we see how that dragged on for years.

    McArthur once said, “There is not substitute for absolute victory.” He was right. What are we trying to accomplish? Gadaffi will not go. The rebels can’t defeat him, what do we want to happen.

    Hopefully, Obama will not go the way of George H. W. Bush by promising more than we willing to deliver and leave the rebels hanging.

  • fhmadvocat

    Let’s be honest. Obama went to “war” because he did not want to be known as the President who “lost” Libya. Personally he is reacting to his right wing critics who would have criticized Obama no matter what action was taken.

    Did he consult with leaders of both parties in Congress. If he did, I haven’t heard. Frankly I am more concerned about the opinions of the Majority Leader of the Senate and the Speaker of the House than I am in the opinions of the United Nations and the Arab League.

    To protect civilians? Please, get real. What about civilians in Bahrain or Yemen, where neither have taken up weapons? What about the fact that Saudi tanks rolled into Bahrain to quell the unrest?

    Is it in our national interest or it is about Obama’s election in 2012?

  • 53_3

    Was that an argument?!?!

  • 53_3

    To all:
    .
    This one is very simple. Obama is not going to drag us into another war.
    .
    We will be enforcing a no fly zone of Libya for a while.
    .
    We don’t need a “game plan” for this other than to help enforce it, and reduce our presence accordingly now that the initial strikes gave the coalition air superiority.
    .
    Everyone is trying to chase the smoke and the images in the mirrors, and have totally forgotten about the open-ended nature of the NFZ mission in Iraq*.
    .
    The NFZ was mooted by the Iraq War.
    .
    So stop trying to convert all this talk and posturing into some sort of game plan. It’s not.
    .
    It is basically what is called a “holding pattern” until the situation on the ground resolves itself: If Quaddfi wins, the NFZ stays. If the rebels win, the NFZ is no more and we all go home.

  • chupkar

    Thank you. Spot on.

  • http://getmydrift68.wordpress.com driftwood929

    The “we” I referred to in my comment was us, the exceptional Americans. “We” will have to lead this “operation”, there has been no war declared by Congress, because “we” now have no choice, since we are already wheels up. I have no problem removing this man from power. Reagan should have done it(better chance of it being done correctly and without homage to the U.N.) . This may turn into a fiasco because once again we go into a military action with our superb military men and women tied to an anchor.Any military operation must have a clear objective which defines victory and for which there is no substitute. But if your objective is to drive up energy costs to support your own ideaology, distract the american public, lick the U.N.”s you know what and, if your lucky, up your approval ratings riding the wave of praise for the fine military you are systematically trying to destroy, well, victory may be yours .

  • afguy

    Bush did not have a game plan for Iraq and we see how that dragged on for years.
    .
    Oh, but we DID have one… based on rosy assumptions, mind you, but it DID exist.
    .
    Remember “we will be greeted as liberators”? That it would only take a few days and their own oil resources would pay for the operation? Bremer was named as a viceroy to oversee things and get the rebuilding done. He even took plane loads of cash over there to clear any “bureaucratic” hurdles and get money where it was needed. We DID have a game plan – based on a series of “best possible outcomes”.
    .
    Once they had “elections” and selected their own government, there’d be no need for us to be there any more.
    .
    In Libya, we went in to establish a “no-fly zone” and level the military playing field to a certain extent. We’ve done that.
    .
    Privately, we need to draw a line and say this is the extent to which we can go to influence events. And then stick by it.
    .
    No more “fudging” the timeline because “someone” has decided that “just a few more weeks/months” will allow us to realize our most optimistic goals. That’s why we’re where we are in Iraq/Afghanistan. One more “Friedman Unit” was all it was going to take. For 10 freaking years.
    .
    We don’t have the blood and treasure to take on any more of these activities that gradually morph into “building a democracy” as we think one should work. They ain’t us… their culture isn’t like ours, and we should stop thinking that, because they walk upright and speak, they will, by definition, see things exactly the same way we do.
    .
    Right now, we simply don’t really know who it is we would be supporting. And, honestly, “well, at least they’re NOT Gadaffy” shouldn’t be good enough to throw our support behind them.
    .
    That’s bitten us on more than one occasion.

  • freeinpa

    “.and at that very hour, the cock crew.”
    .
    You are unmatched at making statements backed by nothing but your mouth.

    .
    I assume “the cock crew” is your boy band!

  • rdw56

    Except a no fly zone isn’t enough. Moamar has tanks and ground forces and as we know will do anything to stay in power.

  • freeinpa

    “This one is very simple. Obama is not going to drag us into another war.”
    .
    I think once you start dropping bombs on people the question of whether you “are in a war” is moot.

    Unless of course you just vote “Present”

  • afguy

    Any military operation must have a clear objective which defines victory and for which there is no substitute.
    .
    Well, if victory by OUR definition is what you seek, let’s just remove ALL of the “anchors”, pull our military members back a safe distance, and turn the entire area into a giant mirror. We DO have the technology to do that – in fact, we can do it to the entire planet a few times over.
    .
    And exactly how is ANYONE trying to “systematically destroy” our “fine military” while riding waves of praise?
    .
    I’d say the repeated deployments of the same people to fight one war after the other is doing a pretty good job of that.
    .
    I really worry about people whose entire adult lives have been involved in death and trying to prevent becoming a casualty themselves, while most of the country worries more about how to lower their personal tax obligation than that “ongoing video game” occurring halfway around the world.
    .
    And THAT’s been going on for almost a decade.

  • fhmadvocat

    There is a big difference between the NFZ in Iraq and the NFZ in Libya:

    Back then, we were not fighting in two wars and there was no effective armed resistance to Shaddam Hussein. You can correct me if I am wrong, but the purpose of the NFZ in Iraq was to protect the Kurdish population in the north and the NFZ did not cover all of Iraq.

    Today our military is overstretched. We still have troops in Iraq and are fighting an active war in Afghanistan.

    Ironically, our NFZ in Libya only serves to prolong the conflict and guarantee more people will die than if we were not there at all. It might be important for Libya not to become a failed state like Somalia. I don’t see the advantange of Libya split into two de-facto countries.

    I am not saying I would not love to see Gaddafi ousted, but the rebels are not strong enough to take him out. We were lucky that the leaders in Tunisia and Egypt left without burning down their countries. I don’t think Gaddafi will do the same.

  • earljr1

    6) Because Michelle said it would make her “proud” of her country! (for only the second time)

  • http://jeffconn5.wordpress.com jeffconn5

    When you sign up with the United Nations you buy into the philosophy of World Management by committee. Now, apparently, if you have a coalition, it is ok to attack another country…Obozo has justification to go to war. Bush had it also, but, to liberals, that wasn’t ok then. Also, Bush had congressional and senate approval for war.

    Even, Al Gore, after 1st gulf war chastised Bush Sr for not finishing job of invading Iraq, because Iraq was so dangerous with WMDs. (See You Tube-Al Gore speech before Congress) Of course, conveniently, he later ignored or changed his tune with 2nd gulf war.

    GWBush attacked Afghanistan because Al Queda was there and Taliban supported their activities.

    Obozo decried GWBush’s right and motive for war….but now uses ‘excuses’/ arguments to attack Libya. He has a coalition of sorts saying it is ok. Liberals appear to be ok with that.

  • rdw56

    Today our military is overstretched

    ************************************

    That’s not true. Unless you assign the USA responsibility for global security. The Navy has almost no role in Afghanistan or Iraq. The AF has a major role in Afghanistan but not at the level of the marines or army. They’re not taking casualties. Libya is purely air.

    IN fact the Arab league has ALL of the air assets needed to enforce a no-fly zone and there’s also France, Germany the UK and Italy.

  • liberalmeltdown

    Even, Al Gore, after 1st gulf war chastised Bush Sr for not finishing job of invading Iraq, because Iraq was so dangerous with WMDs. (See You Tube-Al Gore speech before Congress) Of course, conveniently, he later ignored or changed his tune with 2nd gulf war.

    .
    That is the liberal Middle East and foreign policy. Whichever way is best for political posturing, not what is best for the country.
    .
    It works to get unqualified Senators elected president, but then they have to grow up and actually be responsible. Or, at least that is the hope; otherwise, our foreign policy looks confused, arbitrary, and weak. Just like in Libya, and Iran.

  • afguy

    Bush had it also, but, to liberals, that wasn’t ok then. Also, Bush had congressional and senate approval for war.
    .
    Now.. how much of that “congressional and senate approval” was based on verifiably accurate information?
    .
    Only a select few were allowed to attend briefings, they weren’t allowed to take notes, and they only saw what the presenters wanted them to see (i.e. what would prove their justification for attacking).
    .
    The rest of the Congress had to try to make “informed” votes for action, based on 2nd hand reports of presentation they themselves had not seen, that turned out to be based on bogus intelligence or outright fabrications.
    .
    “Curveball” has admitted to bald-faced LYING because HE wanted action against Saddam.
    .
    Ahmed Chalabi? Nothing more need be said about HIS credibility. Had his OWN axe to grind.
    .
    Evidence of “yellow-cake” purchases? Strongly suspected at the time to be a forgery yet still used to justifiy the attack.
    .
    Cheney continued to make accusations about meetings between Saddam and al Qaeda even after others in the same admin. admitted publicly that the meetings never happened.
    .
    “Informed” approval for action? Hardly.

  • paulejb

    What is the goal? Gaddafi goes or Gaddafi stays? It seems the goal posts keep moving on that one.
    .
    Say what you want about George W, but he did not stumble into war in Iraq. He wanted the end of the Saddam Hussein regime and he got it.
    .
    What does Barack Obama want?

  • afguy

    Unfortunately, paulie, that’s NOT what GWB said was the reason WHY we were going into Iraq, was it?
    .
    Oh, I have NO doubt that’s what he wanted, because Saddam tried to kill his dad, 42… but we were supposed to be going to keep him from using WMDs… wasn’t THAT the stated reason? Colinl and Condoleeza told us so… repeatedly.
    .
    Seems that “regime change” was not a goal that the public was prepared to support as a reason for war… after all, he had been our “thug” not too many years previously.
    .
    By the way… how many WMDs did we find, paulie?

  • paulejb

    afguy@15.2,
    .
    Correction on Saddam and Al-Qaeda…
    .
    http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/04/saddam_and_alqaeda_1.html

  • historyshowsus

    Wait, Gaddafi is no threat to the US. Probably way less of a threat than Saddam. Not even a hint of WMDs in Libya.
    Obama must hold a grudge for the murder of Americans in a Berlin disco killed by Gaddafi trained terrorists? That was what the left claimed motivated GWB (Iraqi trained terrorist’s attempt to kill his father) to go to war. I mean it couldnt possibly have been the fact that Saddam was in violation of the UN cease fire by not accounting for all the weapons he admitted to having (and some of which we later found). It couldnt possibly be because of atrocities committed against the Kurds or any other kind of humanitarian reason. Obviously only the left cares about that and conservative (who are always blamed for being too religious but not ironically never compassionate) don’t.
    The last administration was a contradiction to a lot of conservative principles by spending our tax dollars on liberal programs (No child left behind written by Ted Kennedy and the Medicare drug program that will cost 100s of billions of $$) but this administration takes the cake in hypocrisy.

  • liberalmeltdown

    Saddam, mad man that he was, wanted the world to believe that he had WMD. He used them against his own people. Saddam Hussein was a WMD. End of story.

  • freeinpa

    None were present when the US with a resolution from Congress invaded Iraq (despite liberal lore)

  • paulejb

    afguy@16.1,
    .
    There was a number of reasons for the use of force in Iraq. They are spelled out in H.J. Res 114.
    .
    They are clearly spelled out because, unlike Barack Obama, George W Bush received the authorization of Congress to use force.

  • liberalmeltdown

    This why many countries believed Saddam had WMD, because the helped build them:
    .
    From wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction
    .
    France built Iraq’s Osirak nuclear reactor in the late 1970s. Israel claimed that Iraq was nearing production of nuclear weapons, and destroyed the French-built reactor in 1981. Later, a French company built a turnkey factory which helped make nuclear fuel. France also provided glass-lined reactors, tanks, vessels, and columns used for the production of chemical weapons. Around 21% of Iraq’s international chemical weapon equipment was of French origin. Strains of dual-use biological material also helped advance Iraq’s biological warfare program.

    Italy gave Iraq plutonium extraction facilities that advanced Iraq’s nuclear weapon program along with 75,000 shells and rockets designed for chemical weapons. Between 1979 and 1982 Italy gave depleted, natural, and low-enriched uranium. Swiss companies aided in Iraq’s nuclear weapons development in the form of specialized presses, milling machines, grinding machines, electrical discharge machines, and equipment for processing uranium to nuclear weapon grade. Brazil secretly aided the Iraqi nuclear weapon program by supplying natural uranium dioxide between 1981 and 1982 without notifying the IAEA. About 100 tons of mustard gas also came from Brazil.

    The United States exported support for Iraq during the Iran–Iraq war|over $500 million worth of dual use exports to Iraq that were approved by the Commerce department. Among them were advanced computers, some of which were used in Iraq’s nuclear program.[29] The non-profit American Type Culture Collection and the Centers for Disease Control sold or sent biological samples of anthrax, West Nile virus and botulism to Iraq up until 1989, which Iraq claimed it needed for medical research. A number of these materials were used for Iraq’s biological weapons research program, while others were used for vaccine development.[30] For example, the Iraqi military settled on the American Type Culture Collection strain 14578 as the exclusive anthrax strain for use as a biological weapon, according to Charles Duelfer.[31]

    In the late 80s, the British government secretly gave the arms company Matrix Churchill permission to supply parts for Saddam Hussein’s weapons program, while British Industry supplied Gerald Bull as he developed the Iraqi supergun. In March 1990, a case of nuclear triggers bound for Iraq, were seized at Heathrow Airport. The Scott Report uncovered much of the secrecy that had surrounded the Arms-to-Iraq affair when it became known.[32] The British government also financed a chlorine factory that was intended to be used for manufacturing mustard gas.[33]

    Many other countries contributed as well; since Iraq’s nuclear program in the early 1980s was officially viewed internationally as for energy production, not weapons, there were no UN prohibitions against it. An Austrian company gave Iraq calutrons for enriching uranium. The nation also provided heat exchangers, tanks, condensers, and columns for the Iraqi chemical weapons infrastructure, which can hardly be said to be for energy. Singapore gave 4,515 tons of precursors for VX, sarin, tabun, and mustard gases to Iraq. The Dutch gave 4,261 tons of precursors for sarin, tabun, mustard, and tear gases to Iraq. Egypt gave 2,400 tons of tabun and sarin precursors to Iraq and 28,500 tons of weapons designed for carrying chemical munitions. India gave 2,343 tons of precursors to VX, tabun, Sarin, and mustard gases. Luxembourg gave Iraq 650 tons of mustard gas precursors. Spain gave Iraq 57,500 munitions designed for carrying chemical weapons. In addition, they provided reactors, condensers, columns and tanks for Iraq’s chemical warfare program, 4.4% of the international sales. China provided 45,000 munitions designed for chemical warfare. Portugal provided yellowcake between 1980 and 1982. Niger provided yellowcake in 1981.[34]

  • paulejb

    Who is more dangerous? Gaddafi or Ahmadinejad? Gaddafi kills his own people, Ahmadinejad kills his own people. Gaddafi is insane, Ahmadinejad is insane. Gaddafi gave up his nuke program, Ahmadinejad is full speed ahead on getting a nuke.
    .
    Why Libya and not Iran?

  • liberalmeltdown

    We let this happen because WE didn’t take Saddam out in Gulf War I:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halabja_poison_gas_attack
    .
    The Halabja poison gas attack (Kurdish: Kîmyabarana Helebce), also known as Halabja massacre or Bloody Friday,[1] was an incident that took place on March 16, 1988, during the closing days of the Iran–Iraq War, when chemical weapons were used by the Iraqi government forces in the Kurdish town of Halabja in Iraqi Kurdistan.

    The attack killed between 3,200 and 5,000 people, and injured around 7,000 to 10,000 more, most of them civilians;[1][2] thousands more died of complications, diseases, and birth defects in the years after the attack.[3] The incident, which has been officially defined as an act of genocide against the Kurdish people in Iraq,[4] was and still remains the largest chemical weapons attack directed against a civilian-populated area in history.[5]

    The Halabja attack has been recognized as a separate event from the Anfal Genocide that was also conducted against the Kurdish people by the Iraqi regime under Saddam Hussein.[6] The Iraqi High Criminal Court recognized the Halabja massacre as an act of genocide on March 1, 2010, a decision welcomed by the Kurdistan Regional Government.[7] The attack was also condemned as a crime against humanity by the Parliament of Canada.[8]

  • liberalmeltdown

    And prior to Gulf War II, Saddam DID have WMD and would not verify that he was not still producing them.
    .
    http://www.iraqwatch.org/profiles/chemical.html
    .
    By 1991, the United Nations had established its Special Commission (UNSCOM) and charged it with the task of destroying, removing, or rendering harmless “all chemical and biological weapons and all stocks of agents and all related subsystems and components and all research, development, support and manufacturing facilities.”

    By the time UNSCOM left Iraq in December 1998, it had eliminated a large portion of Iraq’s chemical weapon potential. UNSCOM had overseen the destruction or incapacitation of more than 88,000 filled or unfilled chemical munitions, over 600 tons of weaponized or bulk chemical agents, some 4,000 tons of precursor chemicals, some 980 pieces of key production equipment, and some 300 pieces of analytical equipment. Notwithstanding these extraordinary achievements, there remained important uncertainties regarding Iraq’s holdings of chemical weapons, their precursors, and munitions.
    .
    .
    Left alone Saddam would have rebuilt and used WMD.

  • liberalmeltdown

    Because Ahmadinejad is better looking than Gaddafi. Makes as much sense as any other excuse.
    .
    Whether or not the removal of Gaddafi or Ahmadinejad would bring about a favorable change and not a more radical regime is the problem. But, when you praise the rise of democracy in Egypt, whether or not that is the case, and it doesn’t seem to be, we look ridiculous by switching back and forth picking winners. It’s like Obama’s domestic policy of bailing out here and dumping there, except that no one can predict and depend on which way Obama will go next. And, our allies must be thinking: can we trust America? The answer is no.
    .
    Allowing Iran to go nuclear is like handing the Taliban the bomb in Pakistan.

  • paulejb

    Is it a tenet of liberalism that military force should only be used in a situation where there is absolutely no US national interest involved?

  • paulejb

    You know you are in big trouble when an ex-KGB operative is calling on you to pray.
    .
    Vladimir Putin has called on anyone who may cause civilian casualties to pray for their own souls.
    .
    No mention of the anti-Putin reporters in Russia that have not survived the experience.

  • http://thevividwriter.wordpress.com thevividwriter

    Let’s hope the same ‘intellectual approach’ is taken in Bahrain and Saudi Arabia.

    http://thevividwriter.wordpress.com/2011/03/02/under-the-global-microscope-hypocrisy/

  • http://milascurtains.wordpress.com milascurtains

    I don’t think brainless Idiots like You should judge anyone , starting from taxi driver.

    Use chemicals to clean up Your stupid head from Roaches and try to keep silence- so You would not look like the last fool in the village

  • 53_3

    fhmadvocat:
    .
    The circumstances surrounding the NFZ has changed, and of course, this is Libya, and not Iraq.
    .
    But the point here is that the mission typing is entirely the same:
    .
    How do we take a military stand that is “neutrally in favor of” the rebels, without actually becoming bogged down?
    .
    The same way we did for the Shiites in Basra after Operation Desert Storm. The Shiites lost 30,000 people there and being unwilling to return to depose Saddam Hussein, we chose to enforce a NFZ with cooperation from the UN and eventually made it a NATO thing.
    .
    The one is the template for the other.
    .
    freeinpa:
    .
    Just…shut…up…already! You’re not even smart enough, apparently, to understand what I said.

  • 53_3

    Wow. That was an argument!
    .
    How do I know?
    .
    Freeinpa is stomping his feet again…

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