In the Arena

And Now Syria…

The revolution taking place in the Middle East has a kaleidoscope of causes, occurring along at least four different fragmentary fault lines:

–youthful social networkers v. elderly power-clingers (as in Tunisia and Egypt)

–religious v. secular (also, possibly, Egypt–if the reports of yesterday’s elections are accurate; and potentially Yemen)

–tribe v. tribe (as in Libya)

–Sunni v. Shi’ite (Bahrain, potentially Saudi Arabia and possibly Syria)

The weekend uprisings in Syria take place in a classic mafia-style autarchy, run by the Assad family. It has Facebook and classic human rights elements, but beneath those is the longtime, brutally suppressed impatience of the Sunni majority in Syria with the Alawite minority who practice a form of Shi’ism. The Assad family are Alewites; they famously massacred thousands of Sunnis in the city of Hama in 1982 to quash a rebellion by the (Sunni) Muslim Brotherhood. They have made their alliance with the Shi’ite powers in the region: Iran and Lebanese Hizballah.

And now, the clash between Sunni and Shi’ite is taking on an increased trans-national importance in the region as the rebellions move into their third month.  The Saudis are particularly worried about the rising Shi’ite power to its East and North–that is why it quickly moved troops into Sunni-ruled, Shi’ite majority Bahrain. The preponderance of Saudi oil is located in its Eastern Province, which is predominantly Shi’ite. Iraq, on Saudi’s northern border, teeters between a wobbly democracy and a populist Shi’ite movement led by Muqtadr Sadr. All of these movements receive surreptitious support and encouragement from Iran.

It is widely feared among Middle Eastern Sunnis that Iran has benefitted most from the recent upheavals, which have weakened the Sunni powerhouses in Egypt and Saudi. This may or may not be true: Iran itself is wobbling beneath the impact of UN economic sanctions and its own, suppressed people-power movement. But if Syria becomes the next revolutionary theater, I wouldn’t be surprised if the Sunni powers in the region do as they perceive Iran to have done: provide covert support to an anti-Alawite people-power movement. This could lead to a more open conflict between Shi’ites and Sunnis in the region. (It is also striking how, yet again, the interests of Israel and its Sunni neighbors–especially Saudi Arabia–align.)

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  • troubador222

    Looks like an internet email fear mongering scheme. Short on any”facts”. long on emotionalism and quite frankly probably not written by anyone with any understanding of “the atom’s nucleus”. And one very important fact, it has nothing to do with Syria.

  • troubador222

    Oh and dont worry, long before the radiation kills us here in the US, the asteroid is going to wipe out the last remnants of us who have not been mutated into frogs from the DNA manipulation of the cotton woven into our too tight underwear, which has made us all sterile anyway. And thats all going to happen in the FEMA camps after the implementation of Sharia law.

  • nabi18
  • http://avsecbostjan.wordpress.com avsecbostjan

    Obama is ready to act after country was already subjected to civil war and burned to the ground…after he implemented via United Nations prohibition of air space usage allowing use exclusively to Gaddafi’s air attacks and destruction of rebel army while at the same time prohibiting assistance from already liberated neighboring countries..and why !? Because rebel army didn’t tolerate Jewmerican corruption and therefore rebels needed to be destroyed to extend when those will seat at negotiation table with Jewmerica. LIBERATORS WILL ENSLAVE REBELS BY PUSHING FORWARD GREAT ISRAEL’S AGENDA AND OWN OIL $$

    Dear readers and those who of you who are supposedly journalists…reporters etc. While you are reading or reporting about petty shlt, real war is happening in front of your eyes and in our own country…this war which is already taking and is about to take even higher tall >> ON YOUR PERSONAL REAR<< is not something to ignore…or hesitate to inform as well others about it. Consider this to be your wake up call or face death.

    DICTATOR OBAMA = STALIN = BUSH — USA = USSR….LEARN WHO, WHY, AND HOW RUINED YOU…FROM 911 TO AUSTRALIAN FLOODS – WHITE AMERICAN REFUGEES — ARIZONA SHOOTING – WIKILEAKS is CIA — ESKIMO SARAH PALIN'S "BRIDGE TO NOWHERE" — LEARN ABOUT REAL HUMAN FLASH EATING MACHINE — BREAST FEEDING INSANITY — CIVIL RIOTS IN ARAB COUNTRIES — NEWS/MEDIA or simply BIG FAT WORLD OF LIES !!??? — NEW WORLD ORDER POLITICAL PARTIES(how, who, why or they are not there for you, but instead to seal your faith for their parliament pay$$$ scale !!!! ) http://avsecbostjan.wordpress.com/ or http://avsecbostjan.blogspot.com

  • http://tisias.wordpress.com tisias

    Joe, I would comment that while it is easy to categorize the “causes” of the Green Revolution in various nations under those four labels, it cannot be ignored that there are varying degrees of intermingling in each nation. It would also be prudent to acknowledge that while political conflicts are a major motivation for the revolution, the economic conditions are powerful sources of unrest. Don’t forget, the first protests in Tunisia were sparked by a man whose economic livelihood had been reduced to nothing. In addition, the Arab dictators reacted by lowering their food and gas prices.
    .
    I appreciate the method you are using to analyze this revolution, but don’t over generalize.

  • Joe Klein

    Of course, Tisias, here’s the first sentence of the post:

    The revolution taking place in the Middle East has a kaleidoscope of causes, occurring along at least four different fragmentary fault lines:

    A kaleidoscope of causes would indicate more than a few–and, as I’ve been writing, repeatedly, for the past week, if we don’t deal with the economic problems, then this could turn into a real mess.

  • paulejb

    troubador222@2,
    .
    Well, that certainly ruined my day. Is there no hope at all?

  • paulejb

    avsecbostjan@4,
    .
    Well, there you have it, folks. The argument for the support of mental health care. Nothing more need be said.

  • formerlyjames

    Thanks, troubador222, as I was nodding asleep, I thought I had been mysteriously transported to another thread. Oh, no, another senior moment. You helped me regain my bearings.

  • paulejb

    And so it begins, the Arab League has come out in opposition to the bombing strikes in Libya. It would seem that our Arab friends want an omelette but oppose breaking any eggs.
    .
    As they say; “No good deed goes unpunished.”

  • formerlyjames

    paulejb, indeed, I will add my prayers (atheistic as they may be) for avsecbostjan seeking help and for a full recovery.

  • paulejb

    AP reports of a band of the usual suspects being rounded up outside the White House after refusing orders to move their anti-war protests on down the road.
    .
    Is it any wonder that Barack Obama chose this moment to be on the road to Rio?

  • formerlyjames

    “if we don’t deal with the economic problems…”.
    .
    Let’s let them deal with whatever problems. The “we” part has caused some of the problems to begin.

  • troubador222

    Heh, Paul, perhaps if we wear looser shorts………

  • paulejb

    formerlyjames@4.2,
    .
    Every little bit helps, james. But I fear there is little hope for our friend avsecbostjan. It appears that he has traveled too far around the bend.

  • rdw56

    Joe you are such a liberal elitist. You recognize the importance of capitalism but oppose it constantly. The fact is you are fun to read because you are so liberal and you cannot win. You join Obama in blaming Israel for the problems. Yet Israel gains support among US citizens and more importantly grows their economy at a much faster rate than the Arabs.

    How is it that living on the same land with a shortage of water and other resources Israel has 10x’s the per capital income of the Islamic world?

    Not to rub your face in it but when your per capita income is 10x’s the level of your neighbors and you are growing faster it’s a very short time frame to 20x’s the per capital income. The math for your side is horrendous.

  • rdw56

    The “we” part

    ******************************

    Interesting comment. WE deal with THEIR economic problems. Joe is so liberal. It’s our fault. WE have to deal with their economic problems. They relegate 50% of their population to donkey status and it’s out fault.

  • paulejb

    troubador222@2.2,
    .
    On the outside of our clothes?
    .

  • formerlyjames

    rdw, seriously, please provide your definition of “liberal” and whatever it is that you are so we can better understand your comments.
    .
    I read Mr. Klein’s post again, and do not see Israel mentioned. Again, I am at a loss for your rules of engagement. Are you possibly the only person who follows your logic? Help us out here.

  • paulejb
  • paulejb
  • libssd

    Wow, someone less lucid than newfreedomblog.

  • libssd

    Granted, there may be nuances lost in translation, but one has to ask, “Which part of NO FLY ZONE” does the Arab League not understand? I’m not surprised, just a little disappointed that some things are so predictable.

  • troubador222

    Hahaha. I saw that many years ago. Yeah on the outside of our clothes should work.

  • libssd

    I’ve been a little surprised at how late the media are to the Syria party, which started (but was not widely reported) well before the weekend, with the “Syrian Intifadah of March 15: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNeFs0nQXo0
    .
    Last month, I expected Syria to be “next,” and was surprised when Libya blew up instead. Syria has been an odd regime for decades, and with decreasing oil and water supplies, plus increasing food prices, was ripe for rebellion. Whether the rebellion turns into a revolution remains to be seen. As Middle Eastern dictators go, Assad the younger is relatively moderate, but the longer a country is bottled up, the greater the risk of an explosion when things finally start to break loose.

    Let’s hope that in the case of Syria, all outside parties will have the common sense to keep their mouths shut. Syria will go through a revolution, or not. It’s THEIR problem, not ours.

  • rdw56

    liberal would mean of the left A focus on government solutions rather than private sector. In terms of this debate is that all of the words problems have been caused by capitalist on the right exploiting the average gent on the left Also that the developed west was only able to develop because of their ability to exploit the poor in africa.

  • apr2563


    .
    A Brit speaks of wankers and enablers.

  • apr2563

    http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/
    .
    Real reporters on the ground, talking to real people on the ground.

  • paulejb

    libssd@6.1,
    .
    The Arabs seem to enjoy playing Lucy to the Western Ally’s Charlie Brown. Like Lucy, they keep moving the football.

  • paulejb

    troubador222@2.4,
    .
    And don’t forget, Swedish as the new national language.

  • fhmadvocat

    rdw56,

    I don’t think Joe is opposed to Capitalism, nor are most Liberals. True, most Liberals look to government for solutions to problems, but in truth, Capitalism is not designed to solve most of the world’s problems, Capitalism is designed to make money and there is nothing from with that.

    The issue is the type of Capitalism who have. Arab states have one form of Capitalism, and that form has lead to most of the money ending up in the hands of a very few. As you have pointed out that Israel is very successful. However Israel’s capitalism is very different. The fact is that in Israel, to put it in very simplistic terms, capital has ended up in the hands of the many. I would like to point out for most of Israel’s history, it has been lead by “Liberal” governments, not the “Conservative” governments of the Arab states.

  • artraveler

    Sure we need 300 million foreign policy platforms, one for each person in the country. The role of government is to deal with other nation-states so we don’t have an idiot like Palin starting her own war. Although, from her speech in India, she wanted the US to go into Libya without any mandate or other nations. Can’t keep cutting taxes if we keep fighting more MIC wars.

  • liberalmeltdown

    Just makes you want to visit that blog, doesn’t it…
    .

  • fhmadvocat

    Paul,

    I don’t think it could be stated any better than the Arab League wanting an omelette without breaking some eggs. Don’t they understand what a NO-FLY ZONE, entails. What, did they not think Gaddafi would use his people as innocent shields? And don’t anyone notice the silence coming for the Arab League on Yemen, where government troops killed more its civilians than were killed by the bombing in Libya?

  • liberalmeltdown

    Joe, you scenario sounds like a recipe for creating turmoil and instability. Kinda of like the Arab League supporting action against Libya and then disappearing. It looks like we have been played by factions and countries for their own interests. We aren’t there to protect the Libyan people, I don’t care who says that. If that were the case, action would have been taken long ago. But this action by the UN seems to be timed to cause the most confusion and chaos without allowing a clear solution.

  • paulejb

    apr2563@12,
    .
    Good stuff, apr. Didn’t see anyone complaining about civilian casualties. In fact, the folks seemed pretty happy about events.

  • liberalmeltdown

    What? The Arabs are not the friends of the US, England, France? Paul, I am shocked. We’ve been snookered.

  • paulejb

    fhmadvocat@13,
    .
    The Arabs demanded a no-fly zone. They pushed it through in the UN. What they object to is the necessary preparation of the ground to protect the lives of allied pilots. So it’s damned if we do, and damned if we don’t, in their eyes. The temptation increases to just allow them to stew in their own juices.

  • paulejb

    liberalmeltdown@6.3,
    .
    Being snookered when it comes to the Middle East is nothing new for Western allies. These people are notorious for their ingratitude.

  • paulejb

    artraveler@5.8,
    .
    Sarah Palin was advocating a no-fly zone back when it might have been effective in getting Gaddafi to flee Libya. Now he is dug in and prepared to fight to the death of the last Libyan.
    .
    As for the world’s support, the Arab League is already bailing after getting us into this and the usual suspects, like Hugo Chavez, are carping about “civilian” casualties.

  • liberalmeltdown

    I don’t give the Arab League the benefit of the doubt here. I wonder what their end game is. They had to know that a no fly zone would mean bombing and bombing raids.

  • paulejb

    liberalmeltdown@13.2,
    .
    Arab leaders always find it necessary to take both sides on every issue. Lurking in their minds is the thought that some day the people that will be coming will be coming for them. It is not a safe position from which to take definitive stands on anything.

  • afguy

    What they object to is the necessary preparation of the ground to protect the lives of allied pilots.
    .
    Shooting up a loyalist armored convoy on a highway outside Bengazi is needed to “prepare the ground to protect the lives of the allied pilots”?
    .
    Looks more like leveling the playing field… but even beyond that. We just haven’t “officially” taken sides… publicly.
    .
    I don’t think the Arab League and Allied military forces are on the same page. The Arab League heard “no-fly zone” and assumed that’s only what the resolution authorized.
    .
    They should read the fine print…

  • sacredh

    “REAL HUMAN FLASH EATING MACHINE”
    .
    The rest of the post didn’t bother me too much, but “REAL HUMAN FLASH EATING MACHINE” scared the crotchless panties off me. If some kind of real human flash eating machine can catch the Flash and eat him no less, what chance does a guy in his fifties like me that has bad knees have of out-running it? I’ve been working on turning our old furnace room into a crafts room for the last few days and when I come back the first thing I read is about a human flash eating machine? Jesus Christ! Is it alien in nature? Does it just nibble or take chunks out? I’m locking my doors and pulling the blinds.

  • liberalmeltdown

    13.4, so you are saying that their diplomats after weeks and weeks of discussions are so stupid that they didn’t realize what was being authorized?
    .
    I don’t buy it. I suspect that they will soon blame it on the Zionists.

  • sacredh

    About 30 years ago I lost a pill bottle with a couple of dozen hits of windowpane in it. I think somebody found it recently.

  • paulejb

    afguy@13.4,
    .
    Are you sure you were in the Air Force? Was it the US Air Force?
    .
    The complaints were about the cruise missile launches which were meant to degrade Gaddafi’s air defenses. We can’t send in our people to do a job if they are going to be shot at. The claim was that these attacks caused collateral damage.
    .
    As for Gaddafi’s ground forces and their armor, I doubt that even the Arabs give a rat’s a$$.

  • afguy

    The complaints were about the cruise missile launches which were meant to degrade Gaddafi’s air defenses.
    .
    Paulie,
    .
    That’s YOUR interpretation of the complaints. What I’m hearing is that they are complaining about the scope of the overall campaign exceeding the mandate. It’s NOT limited to the subject of cruise missile attacks to suppress air defenses.
    .
    As for knowing what the cruise missile attacks were intended to accomplish, I’m VERY aware of what they do. More than you might think. They take out known targets or installations with the best of them. With extreme accuracy. Cruise missiles aren’t used for “targets of opportunity” like moving armored columns with multiple, individually-mobile components. That’s a waste of a single $600k missile.
    .
    The only WAY to COMPLETELY prevent Allied pilots from being shot at is to target every machine gun, assault rifle and sidearm in the country under loyalist control. In short, everything that can shoot. You can’t do that solely from the air. And you can’t get them all.
    .
    The “no-fly zones” in Iraq targeted radar systems, anti-aircraft guns, the airfields, and the aircraft. This is no longer about simply enforcing a “no-fly zone” and protecting the Allied aircraft and you know it…
    .
    They want Gadaffi out of there. They’re trying to accomplish that without using ground troops.

  • liberalmeltdown

    13.7, “The only WAY to COMPLETELY prevent Allied pilots from being shot at is to target every machine gun, assault rifle and sidearm in the country under loyalist control. In short, everything that can shoot.”
    .
    Since the French and British don’t have stealth, we have to take out just about anything that can shoot them down. Even then the rebels may shoot them down. They shot one of their own down the other day.
    .

  • paulejb

    afguy@13.7,
    .
    1. The complaints are BS. They are entirely for home consumption. They are the usual pandering to the Arab street.

    2. I know what cruise missiles are designed to do and it is not to chase armored vehicles down the highway. That is accomplished by manned aircraft or drones.

    3. I suspect that the attacks on Gaddafi’s forces outside of Benghazi were to forestall his capture of the city from the rebels which would have made the no-fly zone moot.
    .
    4. I very much doubt that anyone would have shed any tears if one of those cruise missiles had landed on Gaddafi’s head.

    5. Barack Obama had better come up with a story real fast about what the end game in Libya will look like.

  • afguy

    Well, your version of “air defense suppression” could easily be confused with “offensive, pre-emptive air assault”. If they’re targeting tanks and artillery pieces used for support of ground campaigns, then the difference virtually disappears.
    .
    According to what I am watching now, the State Department lobbied for the most liberal interpretation of a “no-fly zone” that they could get in the U.N. resolution and apparently were successful.
    .
    So, the language of the resolution supports whatever definition of a “no-fly zone” we want it to be.
    .
    By the definition above, introduction of ground forces could be shown to be for “elimination of hostile granular anti-aircraft-capable components and support personnel”.
    .
    That’s anyone carrying a gun over there who might be shooting at an Allied aircraft, in case you couldn’t figure that out.

  • lilaland

    Joe, could you please remove that personal letter posted. My 11 year old son took it upon himself to hack into my account and post that private letter. It has personal information and WAS NOT meant to be read by time or anyone other than the person it was sent to. Please, I am horrified that it was posted and take responsibility for my sons alarmist actions. I’ll make sure nothing like this is repeated.
    Please remove that private letter.

    Thank you,
    Adrienne

  • Joe Klein

    At the request of the original author of this email, I have removed it from this commentary thread.

  • afguy

    Since the French and British don’t have stealth, we have to take out just about anything that can shoot them down.
    .
    Meltdown, stealth technology doesn’t make aircraft immune to groundfire. Just makes them harder to see on radar or by a heat-seeking tracker.
    .
    In fact, one of the more effective tactics against fast, low-flying aircraft is simply firing up in the air in their path. You don’t wait until you see them – too late then. Someone simply says it’s coming and you point and shoot – a LOT. Doesn’t take sophisticated coordination like a missile launch, just reliable 2-way communications.
    .
    The F-111s lost during Vietnam were taken down by that tactic – they even have a term for one of those hits – the “golden B-B” – a lucky hit in a vulnerable spot on a vital system, such as the hydraulics or stability system.

  • http://jcapan.wordpress.com jcapan

    Good to see it removed (even minus the request), and the excuse reeks of b-s.

  • paulejb

    afguy@12.10,
    .
    That is not how I read it, afguy. The resolution specifically allows aid the the rebels in Benghazi and it was written by the British and French with Lebanon playing a large roll. The USA was a reluctant participant.
    .
    As for people carrying weapons I doubt that pilots worry to much about any that are not radar guided or heat seeking.

  • allthingsinaname

    It is simple folks. The Arab League wants us there, but they do not want the people to know they want us there. It is politics.

    Mush like the GOP, to be relevant they must be opposed to the Democrats ; Arab leaders must be opposed to the USA.
    .
    Neither the GOP or the Arab Leaders care about you.

  • afguy

    As for people carrying weapons I doubt that pilots worry to much about any that are not radar guided or heat seeking.
    .
    They’re not. You can’t do anything about them specifically, so you don’t worry about them. You just concentrate on the mission… and hope they don’t get lucky.

  • afguy

    That is not how I read it, afguy. The resolution specifically allows aid the the rebels in Benghazi and it was written by the British and French with Lebanon playing a large roll. The USA was a reluctant participant.
    .
    What I wrote was based on what I was seeing on CNN at the time. Our participation was not as “reluctant” as it would seem. As some have said, that’s for Arab League consumption. Better for all in this that we be seen as “reluctant” participants. But, with the “liberal” language of the resolution, whetever we decide to do can be found to be authorized in the fine print.
    .
    We’re just not as “in your face” in the lead on this as in the past.
    .
    Cruise missile strikes are needed to take out the AD components. Let’s just say that the justification for some of the targets as being part of the AD “command and control” structure is, shall we say, creative.

  • libssd

    pauljb@5.4: Being snookered when it comes to the Middle East is nothing new for Western allies. These people are notorious for their ingratitude.
    .
    It’s hard to tell if you’re being sarcastic here or not, but after Sykes-Picot, the Balfour Declaration, the British occupation of Iraq, the British/French war over the Suez Canal, CIA toppling of various governments that didn’t meet with our approval, “being snookered” would seem to apply more to what has been done to by the Western allies to various countries in the Middle East, rather than the other way around. As the saying goes, “What goes around, comes around.”

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