Why Are We Going to War with Libya?–Updated

Updated: 4:10 pm

With air strikes apparently imminent against the forces of Muammar Gaddafi, America faces a simple question: why is the U.S. going to war in Libya? There may be good reasons, even compelling ones. But so far the answers from the Obama administration are shockingly opaque, contradictory and incomplete.

Obama explained his decision in an East Room statement this afternoon. He said Gaddafi was suppressing his people and that “left unchecked, we have every reason to believe that Gaddhafi would commit atrocities against his people. Many thousands could die. A humanitarian crisis would ensue. The entire region could be destabilized, endangering many of our allies and partners. The calls of the Libyan people for help would go unanswered. The democratic values that we stand for would be overrun. Moreover, the words of the international community would be rendered hollow.”

Hillary Clinton said this morning that regime change—Gaddafi’s departure from power—was also a key U.S. demand, but Obama did not include regime change in his list of “non-negotiable” terms. “All attacks against civilians must stop,” Obama said, “Gadhafi must stop his troops from advancing on Benghazi; pull them back from Adjadbiya, Misrata and Zawiya; and establish water, electricity and gas supplies to all areas. Humanitarian assistance must be allowed to reach the people of Libya.” Non-compliance by Gaddafi, Obama said, would result in military action. He said the U.S. would provide “unique capabilities” as “part of an international coalition.”

Obama is unpersuasive and the messages from the administration are strikingly unclear. Why is the Secretary of State calling for Gaddafi’s ouster but not the President, who just days ago was himself calling on Gaddafi to leave the country? More important, what interests of the American people are being served here? Why does the U.S. want the fighting to stop, Gaddafi’s forces to retreat and Gaddafi to leave the country?

The most common justification for war is the allegation that Gaddafi has been killing innocent civilians. Intervention to stop war crimes like the widespread killing of civilians has precedent in Bosnia and Kosovo. The unrest in Libya did begin, as Obama and Clinton pointed out, with peaceful protests, which Gaddafi attempted violently to suppress. The protesters then armed themselves and were joined by defecting units of the military. Since then, most of the reports coming out of Libya appear to indicate that the violence is between armed rebels and forces loyal to Gaddafi. Obama appeared to concede this by emphasizing the possibility of a future humanitarian crisis rather than a current one.

Secretary Clinton herself today suggested that the evidence of violence against civilians, as opposed to armed rebels and defecting troops, is circumstantial. “There are many stories, as you know, of massacres, abductions,” Clinton said. She did not produce evidence of atrocities against civilians and said that such allegations would need to be validated later on the ground. Time has asked the administration for evidence of war crimes for several weeks and they have not provided it. It is worth noting that other regimes around the world, including some allies, are even now unambiguously killing innocent civilians.

The demands of President Obama, Secretary Clinton and other U.S. officials that Gaddafi leave the country, indicate another justification for U.S. involvement in the war: regime change. But would a change of regimes in Libya be in our interest? Gaddafi is a thug. In the 1980s he launched repeated terrorist attacks against Americans, and over the last two decades he has fueled horrific and destabilizing violence in West Africa. But after the Iraq war, he gave up his secret nuclear and chemical weapons programs and began cooperating with the U.S. in counterterrorism efforts.

So U.S. interests are mixed on the simple question of Gaddafi’s removal. The real question is “what’s the alternative?” It’s safe to say that no one in the administration can predict what will emerge in a post-Gaddafi Libya. There has never been a powerful central state in Libya, and the country is split along tribal lines. There is little of the civil society or established middle class that exist in Egypt, let alone that of more developed countries that have peacefully made the transition to democracy from authoritarianism. And the part of the country that has fueled the uprising against Gaddafi is also the section of the country that has harbored much of Libya’s Islamic radicalism, including many militants who fought in Iraq against the U.S.

That said, it seems possible that the rebel leadership could align its interests with ours if it came to power. Secretary Clinton did not provide much detail about her meetings earlier this week with rebel leaders. However, past diplomatic cables sent by U.S. Ambassador to Libya Gene Cretz and leaked by WikiLeaks, reveal that the leader of the rebel council, former Libyan Justice Minister Mustafa Abduljalil, holds potential. On Jan. 25 last year, Cretz met with Abduljalil to discuss legal reforms. Abduljalil had facilitated the visits of U.S. advisers and judges to the country and had requested U.S. help with private sector development. Abduljalil attempted (and failed) to resign in Feb. 2010 after Gaddafi prevented the release of 300 Libyans that Gaddafi said were terrorists. Abduljalil raised concerns with the ambassador about US support for Israel. The picture of the opposition is unclear and whether current figures in leadership would remain in power is also uncertain.

Americans have not been provided with sufficient evidence of mass atrocities committed by the Gaddafi regime or indications that a Gaddafi victory would destabilize the region to justify a military intervention on humanitarian grounds alone. Nor has the administration made a case that the alternative to Gaddafi justifies the risk of removing him. Members of both political parties are prone to support humanitarian intervention to stop war crimes and given Gaddafi’s past, it seems a strong case could be made that an alternative to him would be in the U.S. interest. It is somewhat shocking that the U.S. is preparing to take military action against Libya and neither of those arguments have been convincingly made.

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  • afguy

    As far as I can tell, Americans have not been provided with sufficient evidence of mass atrocities committed by the Gaddafi Saddam Hussein regime to justify a military intervention on humanitarian grounds alone.
    .
    Now… does ANY of that look more famiiliar?
    .
    Maybe it’s time to declare that Gaddafi has WMDs aimed at us here in the U.S. Then the “logical” circle will be complete.

  • Paul-no not that one

    Good piece MC.
    .
    A critical (in the truest sense) media is a media doing its job best.

  • hippooath

    Please have media be like this in all cases and not when the political winds look like everyone is against it? I don’t need war to be a sunshine scenario, just the plain truth.

  • allthingsinaname

    “But it is somewhat shocking that the U.S. is preparing to take military action against Libya and neither of those arguments have been convincingly made.”
    .
    No arguments have been made! I do not like the government there is not a reason to go to war.

  • koabd

    You seem fairly certain that the US is “going to war with Libya.” The only movements of materiel I’m aware of are French and British aircraft moving into position.

  • Ivy_B

    My goodness. All these articles questioning going to war with Libya. Of course not long ago there was the drumbeat that Obama is doing nothing, he’s waited too long to establish the $20 million per week no-fly zone, OMG what’s he doing.

    However, being an optimist, I would look at it as the media perhaps learning from Iraq and at least considering there are reasons not to rush headlong into war.

  • Ivy_B

    Ah, never mind. I see on twitter that Fox news has gone all peacenick. Guess it’s one more thing that Obama turns upside down.

  • nflfoghorn

    Flox Opinion will do the opposite of what BO does. That’s “Ailes’ Corollary.”

  • michaelfury
  • jsfox

    We? As far as I can tell it is the UN with France, Britain and the Arab League taking the lead. They were the ones beating the drums for it and therefore it is only right that they be the ones to do the heavy lifting.

  • shepherdwong

    For Middle Eastern standards the armed forces of Saudi Arabia are relatively small. Its strength however is derived from advanced technology and not from numerical superiority. This is why the armed forces are under a continuing modernization program. The backbone of the fighter force is formed by 134 Tornados from which a batch of 48 Tornado IDS was ordered in 1993 under the al-Yamamah II program and 72 F-15S aircraft delivered from the mid-90s that operate besides the 41 F-15C/D aircraft delivered in the early 90s.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Saudi_Air_Force

  • shepherdwong

    Good article, Mr. Calabresi.
    .
    The Swamp stops taking it’s lead from the Republican lie machine and “White House officials,” and the quality of the journalism advances immediately. Nice to see.

  • jsfox

    Point? The Arab league is made up of more than Saudi’s and certainly France and Britain have the fire power and the resources. I have no issue with backing them. Offering logistical and material support. I have big issues with once again the weight falling on our shoulders.

  • http://docreviewing.wordpress.com docreviewer01

    Maybe they should just make a up a lie about WMD and having been involved in 9/11. It worked on the media back in the day, and I’ve seen nothing to indicate that that reasoning wouldn’t work now.
    *
    Of course, there’s no evidence of WMD or involvement in 9/11 with Lybia, but there wasn’t any evidence of WMD or involvement in 9/11 with Iraq. But as Dubya proved, just keep lying and call anybody who disagrees unpatriotic and the media will not question you about anything.

  • fhmadvocat

    There are three reasons the U.S. is going to war with Libya.

    1. Oil.

    2. Oil.

    3. Oil.

  • Matt

    I know it’s a wild guess and a completely insane hypothesis, but I think the move to attack Libya on the pretext of humanitarian assistance has something to do with, I don’t know, oil? Bomb Libya, remove Gaddafi, make deals with the rebels for cheap supplies of the black stuff.
    http://www.sunstateactivist.org

  • afguy

    I think they’re still working on a rationale for “liberating” all of that oil in the ground over there. There’s LOTS of it, after all…
    .
    If BP gets to continue to develop that (like they already were), does that serve OUR “national interests” also?
    .
    I guess, at this point, it doesn’t matter WHO gets that out of the ground and into the world petroleum markets… as long as SOMEONE does… and quickly.
    .
    “Mr. Market” is getting skittish, nervous, nauseous, etc…. you know how much he dislikes “uncertainty” of ALL forms…

  • freeinpa

    Forget about going to Libya. Drill here. Problem solved

  • freeinpa

    It must be why the French and the British are going too. And over how much oil? 1% of global production. Liberals need a new punch line. Before it was just ridiculous now its stupid too.

  • afguy

    Wrong answer. LIbya has “tons” of the stuff and easy to get to. Ours is getting increasingly hard to find and develop.
    .
    More drilling here wouldn”t have any effect on supplies for years.
    .
    But it DOES have the luxury of being a “tried and true” talking point… old and worn though it may be.

  • fhmadvocat

    freeinpa,

    You clearly have a simplistic view of the world. We don’t need Libyan oil. However, much of the world does, including our ally, Italy. More important, we want stable oil prices. Turmoil in Libya could drive the price of oil sky high.

    Then you Conservatives could find one more reason to blame Obama.

  • fhmadvocat

    freeinpa,

    Why are we not dealing with the Ivory Coast? Oh, yea, all they have is cocoa. There isn’t much oil there. Why do you think we have supported so many dictators in the Middle East? Why did we care is Saddam Hussein invaded Kawait?

    Oh, BTW, no amount of drilling on subsidied land is going to get rid of the problem. Though it might help the deficit if the U.S. charged market rates for the drilling.

  • allthingsinaname

    Obama gave a nice short speech on limited support for the people of the middle east to self determination, that is, keeping the powers to be in check with limited military intervention.
    .
    Enforcing a No Fly Zone, allowing us to take out strategic infrastructure that support the ruling power, but if they refuse to leave the areas discussed what then? Bomb the very people we are hoping support? With no ground forces how do you remove them?
    .
    I am skeptic.

  • paulejb

    Barack the Uncertain is being controlled by events. He is not leading, he is being led by the nose. His ingrained habit of voting present is not helpful in his present position.

  • freeinpa

    “You clearly have a simplistic view of the world. We don’t need Libyan oil. However, much of the world does, including our ally, Italy. More important, we want stable oil prices. Turmoil in Libya could drive the price of oil sky high.”

    .
    Hey Rip Van Liberal have you been asleep for months? There has been turmoil in the Middle East for months and in Libya for weeks. Stable oil prices? Drive price high? They have gone from the mid-40s in 2009 to over $100 now! You don’t have a simplistic view you have an uninformed ignorant view.
    .
    Italy is the most exposed as they get about 24% of their oil from Libya. Libya produces about 1.4 million bbl/day. Italy’s take about 330,000 well within the excess capacity of the swing producers (Saudi Arabia for one).

    .
    So which side of the argument are the liberals on, no wars anywhere? We are in it for the oil? We are helping our allies? It seems the left argues all 3. Maybe it they should try the correct one—its the right thing to do.

  • paulejb

    fhmadvocat@11,
    .
    Than why not just invade Alaska and get the oil there?

  • freeinpa

    When you are in over your head, you let the current take you.

  • freeinpa

    “Why are we not dealing with the Ivory Coast? Oh, yea, all they have is cocoa. There isn’t much oil there. Why do you think we have supported so many dictators in the Middle East? Why did we care is Saddam Hussein invaded Kawait”
    .
    Rambling questions without a single point or answer

  • afguy

    Enforcing a No Fly Zone, allowing us to take out strategic infrastructure that support the ruling power, but if they refuse to leave the areas discussed what then?
    .
    Enforcing a “no-fly” zone won’t do diddly about his armor and artillery, which are doing MOST of the damage. If you want to impact THOSE, you’re talking about involvement to a MUCH further degree.
    .
    Direct, pre-emptive strikes on his mechanized forces. A WHOLE different “ball of wax”.
    .
    And you’e NOT going to be able to do much about the pro-Gadaffi ground forces without direct infantry involvement on OUR part.
    .
    Or supplying the opposition forces with some fairly sophisticated armaments for their use – which COULD get us into trouble down the road.

  • jsfox

    Why must it be the US that leads on these things? If the international community wants to go riding to the rescue let them. It is about damn time.

  • hippooath

    “Barack the Uncertain is being controlled by events. He is not leading, he is being led by the nose. His ingrained habit of voting present is not helpful in his present position.”
    .
    Isn’t it strange that GOP and a majority of Americans, both conservative and democrats do not support this. Yet it’s used as another attack on Obama. Even most ideologues don’t want to but it’s still a nice sound bite.
    .
    Freeinpa – you’re a big budget deficite person – willing to pay with your taxes for this war. It’ll bound to be more than what we’re spending on NPR and you didn’t want to pay for that. We’re unlikely ever going to get back any of that money and it might lead to a longterm burn of stationary troops.
    .
    Amazing how your hatred for Obama completely removes the whole fiscal concerns.

  • shepherdwong

    Hey Rip Van Liberal have you been asleep for months?
    .
    Better than for the past thirty years. If we had followed Jimmy Carter’s lead, we wouldn’t be burning a quarter of the world’s oil supply and be stuck fighting land wars in the M.E. Thanks to traitorous “conservatives” led by Ronald Reagan, working in service to multi-national oil companies, rather than the national security interests of the United States, we’re screwed.

  • afguy

    Where in God’s name did you get the idea that crude oil prices were down around the mid-$40 range in 2009?
    .
    They’ve been over $75/bbl and climbing since early that year. They haven’t been below about $60 since 2006.
    .
    http://www.oil-price.net/index.php?lang=en

  • shepherdwong

    Point? The Arab league is made up of more than Saudi’s and certainly France and Britain have the fire power and the resources.
    .
    The point is, Saudi Arabia has a semi-useful air force. France and Britain aren’t part of the Arab League.

  • freeinpa

    “Better than for the past thirty years. If we had followed Jimmy Carter’s lead”

    Yes we would all be wearing ugly cardigans, with no economic growth, double digit inflation and 21% interest rates. Boy those were the days. And I thought the only thing we had to fear then was attack rabbits.

  • freeinpa

    “Isn’t it strange that GOP and a majority of Americans, both conservative and democrats do not support this. Yet it’s used as another attack on Obama.”
    .
    And the reason 8 years of constant yammerering by the left over Iraq and Afghanistan led by the Community Organizer. We have seen that the ostrich defense Obambi has tried for the past few weeks in the hope of it all going away after his after lunch nap. That’s what it means to be a world leader. When there is a problem you step up not because you expect to be paid back or that you have another motive but because its the right thing to do.
    .
    A concept the left never can comprehend!

  • fhmadvocat

    freeinpa,

    I have not been asleep so long to remember that oil was more expensive in mid-2007 than it is today, amid ME turmoil.

    The high price of oil deals with supply and demand. With China and India revving up their economies, we can expect expensive oil in the long haul. In fact the problem now isn’t about the supply. The Saudi’s clearly can make up the difference. The problem is that the unrest will cause spectulators to hoard the oil, driving up the price.

    We are going to Libya to calm the spectulator’s fears. We don’t need them hoarding oil to drive up the price.

    As far as why we are going, I find it rather ironic that you are agreeing more with Obama than Michelle Bachmann. It might make you rethink your position.

  • afguy

    So which side of the argument are the liberals on, no wars anywhere? We are in it for the oil? We are helping our allies? It seems the left argues all 3. Maybe it they should try the correct one—its the right thing to do.
    .
    free,
    .
    How about “war for the right reasons”, not just “a reason”? Not for oil supplies, NOT just because our “allies” are going, or “someone” wants us to beat up on their neighbors so they don’t have to.
    .
    Or, at the very least, war in which EVERYONE is required to participate as an active player, NOT just a spectator.

  • freeinpa

    “Amazing how your hatred for Obama completely removes the whole fiscal concerns.”
    .
    Should we being sending any support to Japan? Haiti? I am sure the US Naval ships that went there didn’t run on lineral hot air. Now that would solve the energy problem- an inexhaustible supply.
    .
    Or are you only for using our defense as nannies?

  • koabd

    Freeinpa – you’re a big budget deficite person – willing to pay with your taxes for this war.
    .
    No. He believes that if you cut “discretionary spending,” you can maintain defense spending. So, defunding NPR and excising foreign aid from the budget is how you will fund this war.

  • afguy

    When there is a problem you step up not because you expect to be paid back or that you have another motive but because its the right thing to do.
    .
    A concept the left never can comprehend!

    .
    Oh, I think we can comprehend that.
    .
    Problem is, the ones yelling the loudest for something to be done militarily (AGAIN) are the ones who aren’t in any danger of going themselves. Calling for blood to be spilled is EASY when it’s never going to be theirs.
    .
    THAT is always going to be a problem for me.
    .
    I MAY not agree with the Israelis on eveything but at least their national policy is that EVERYONE has to share in the sacrifice.
    .
    We, on the other hand, are a nation with more than our share of “blood-thirsty pu$$ie$.”

  • freeinpa

    “The high price of oil deals with supply and demand”
    .
    Well which is it? One sentence its supply and demand the next its ME unrest.
    .
    “We don’t need them hoarding oil to drive up the price.

    As far as why we are going, I find it rather ironic that you are agreeing more with Obama than Michelle Bachmann. It might make you rethink your position.”
    .
    Let’s see hoarding 1% of global production and driving up the price. India and China have created their own SPR and having been buying up energy companies globally. They don’t care about Libya’s 1%. We on the other hand has cut drilling and exploration and have ignored any energy policy for the sake of environmentalism.
    .
    As afr as Michelle Bachman or the First Tourist, I don;’t need to rethink my position based on what either of them says. That’s the difference in doing what’s right and believing politicians are the answer to any question. That’s not the strong suits of the left; doing what’s right !

  • shepherdwong

    Yes we would all be wearing ugly cardigans, with no economic growth, double digit inflation and 21% interest rates. Boy those were the days.
    .
    One of these days, you should learn to stop blaming Democrats for the f@ck-ups of Republicans (though, I suppose, Carter has to own the cardigan).

    By 1971, pressures produced by the Vietnam War and federal social spending, coupled with the increase in foreign competition, pushed the inflation rate to 5 percent and unemployment to 6 percent. President Richard Nixon responded by increasing federal budget deficits and devaluing the dollar in an attempt to stimulate the economy and to make American goods more competitive overseas. Nixon also imposed a 90-day wage and price freeze, followed by a mandatory set of wage-price guidelines, and then, by voluntary controls. Inflation stayed at about 4 percent during the freeze, but once controls were lifted, inflation resumed its upward climb.
    .
    In 1974, during the first oil embargo, inflation hit 12 percent. Gerald Ford, the new president, initially attacked the problem in a traditional Republican fashion, by tightening the money supply by raising interest rates and limiting government spending. In the end, his economic program proved to be no more than a series of ineffectual wage and price guidelines monitored by the federal government. In the subsequent recession, unemployment reached 9 percent.

    http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/database/article_display.cfm?HHID=399

  • freeinpa

    “No. He believes that if you cut “discretionary spending,” you can maintain defense spending.”
    .
    2 things are certain. You know nothing about me and nothing about this topic and probably most others.

    I suggest you have a modicum of knowledge of what you post or just STFU

    .
    My post from earlier today
    .
    “$100 billion quite doable and yes a good start would be to rationalize our defense spending (troops in Germany or Korea) but also programs the government needs t be out, Planned Parenthood and NPR being 2 of them.

    Read more: http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2011/03/18/morning-must-reads-brink/#ixzz1H1kVl400
    ..

  • freeinpa

    “Problem is, the ones yelling the loudest for something to be done militarily (AGAIN) are the ones who aren’t in any danger of going themselves. Calling for blood to be spilled is EASY when it’s never going to be theirs.”
    .
    So what do you suggest? National vote, coin toss?

    Leading is not a concept the left is strong with either.

  • gysgt213

    “Forget about going to Libya. Drill here. Problem solved.”
    .
    free: And may the government and Obama can force them oil companies to sell the oil to Americans. Oh wait. That’s right you don’t want the government to be involved so all the foreign owned oil companies will have to just do the right thing.

  • allthingsinaname

    The whole purpose of the GOP is score political points, and take all they can from Americans. Divide and Conquer. There is no point in entertaining any points of view on this, or any other issue presented by them.
    .
    The GOP just doesn’t care about you

  • hippooath

    “And the reason 8 years of constant yammerering by the left over Iraq and Afghanistan led by the Community Organizer. We have seen that the ostrich defense Obambi has tried for the past few weeks in the hope of it all going away after his after lunch nap. That’s what it means to be a world leader. When there is a problem you step up not because you expect to be paid back or that you have another motive but because its the right thing to do.
    .
    A concept the left never can comprehend!”
    .
    Right thing to do? Get your message straight. With Egypt it was Obama abondoning our ally, with Japan he wasn’t saying anything. With Egypt it was be scurred of MB and what about Libya. Bomb because it’s the right thing?
    .
    Ivory coast – worse conditions. More death. Right thing? Somalia. Anarchy and death. Bomb them? Right thing? Yemen – or any other country where we have a vested interest and they’re killing protesters. Right thing?
    .
    Your argument seems to circle back to the right thing. Why? because Libya has a dictator? Is it right to remove him because…his hurting his people? Then the argument has to be remove anyone that hurt their people. if the argument is that we need give democracy a chance to survive, then we must do it everywhere else.
    .
    Whats right about Libya and not anywhere else? Why is MB a problem in Egypt and not anywhere else?
    .
    But yeah – Obama is bad for doing something somewhere, not talking to much, talking to much, not supporting allies, not supporting freedomfighters.
    .
    In other words – you just want to blame Obama regardless.
    .
    Prove me wrong by explaining why it is right there but no where else.

  • afguy

    That’s not the strong suits of the left; doing what’s right !
    .
    Careful, free.
    .
    Doing what’s RIGHT is not automatically guaranteed to coincide with “what’s in U.S. national interests”… we’ve already seen that on more than one occasion.

  • hippooath

    “Should we being sending any support to Japan? Haiti? I am sure the US Naval ships that went there didn’t run on lineral hot air. Now that would solve the energy problem- an inexhaustible supply.
    .
    Or are you only for using our defense as nannies?”
    .
    Just answer the question – deflection is your specialty but it’s irrelevant what I think since I never made the argument that we shouldn’t. You made the argument about the deficit and about bombing.

  • afguy

    So what do you suggest? National vote, coin toss?
    .
    Leading is not a concept the left is strong with either.

    .
    How is the “right” leading, free? I don’t see any of the cheerleaders on the front lines… they’re back here in the safety of their own “think tanks” and “congressional offices”, “pushing” for action… NOT leading.
    .
    Apparently, “leading” isn’t something the “right” knows a lot about, either.
    .
    Because “leading”, by nature, implies action “out in front”.
    .
    They haven’t demonstrated very much, anyway. At least not on a personal level… that is, by example.
    .
    All I hear is “do as I say, NOT as I do.”

  • nflfoghorn

    “It is somewhat shocking that the U.S. is preparing to take military action against Libya and neither of those arguments have been convincingly made.”
    .
    Wiping aside the preposition THAT, it’s correct to state “neither argument HAS been made”. The subject is NEITHER, not ARGUMENTS.
    .
    Post-English Lesson:
    .
    “Barack the Uncertain is being controlled by events. He is not leading, he is being led by the nose. His ingrained habit of voting present is not helpful in his present position”
    .
    Beyond his usual twisting of truth and MSU, I assume Paulie typed that with a straight face.
    .
    BO probably played this just right. We’re kinda handcuffed by two invasions already. We can’t afford to get into a third without some sort of consensus.

  • allthingsinaname

    Of all things afguy you are not suggesting that the GOP is opportunistic?

  • shepherdwong

    Barack the Uncertain is being controlled by events.
    .
    Right, and Dubya would have wrestled that tsunami to the sea floor and personally punched Mubarak and Gadaffi senseless (right after he got done clearin’ brush). Do you have any idea what an partisan idiot you sound like?

  • afguy

    The high price of oil deals with supply and demand.
    .
    I’m going to have to disagree with that one. Any little events that “might” prove disruptive in the future and prices go UP – immediately.
    .
    Once the disruption is resolved, someone show me an instance in which the prices went DOWN as quickly as they rose. They usually take weeks to decline.
    .
    H*ll, I’m not even sure the oil companies are even trying to trot that one out any more, since no one would believe them anyway.
    .
    Call the real reason “speculation”… or, alternately, “simply because we can raise them”… both would be equally plausible.

  • afguy

    Of all things afguy you are not suggesting that the GOP is opportunistic?
    .
    With a capital “O”… allthings…

  • rdw56

    I MAY not agree with the Israelis on eveything but at least their national policy is that EVERYONE has to share in the sacrifice.

    ***************************************************

    That’s simply not true. Several religious sects don’t serve and they alos have a series of exemptions. Israel has higher requirements simply because of their population size and relative threat. But they are working to lower participation standards by adapting technology to lower the threat to the soldier and then in many cases outsource the function to the civilian sector. Eventually many border functions will be done by the private sectoras well as intelligence collection.

  • 53_3

    I might add that I immediately see Calebrasis’ “calibrations”:
    .
    First, imply that Obama = Bush (warmonger w/o cause)
    .
    Next, tar him with everything that he can that’ll stick to it.
    .
    One of these days, maybe the “Obama Hate” will abate, but I don’t think holding my breath would be such a good idea.

  • 53_3

    I think a unanimous UN agreement* is good enough, don’t you?
    .
    *as I remember, Bush resorted to coercion and good ol’ American purchasing power for his “coalition of the bought”…

  • 53_3

    rdw:
    .
    You’ve already proven yourself dumb enough.
    .
    You are going to try to sell the “loyalty” of the “private sector”* too?
    .
    Excuse me while I fart in derision…
    .
    *mercenaries. Say it. Go on. Stop mincing words. Euphemisms are euphemisms are euphemisms. Just say “mercenaries”.

  • nflfoghorn

    Agree on the UN agreement. W was uncontrolled by events, and look where it got us!

  • hippooath

    “as I remember, Bush resorted to coercion and good ol’ American purchasing power for his “coalition of the bought”…”
    .
    And the our allies limped away leaving us with the bag when they had their fill.
    .
    how quickly before Libya turns sour and we’re left there with 20-30k troops while everyone else says ‘see ya’

  • Ivy_B

    OT – 53, I think it was you who recommended NoAds to Apr? If so my most sincere thanks as well!

    How is your wife doing? Have been thinking of you both.

  • afguy

    rdw,
    .
    I got my information from an Israeli emigre who served in the IDF and was teaching a class I attended. We compared notes about growing up in our respective countries over a week’s worth of Subway lunches.
    .
    According to him, the exceptions had to do with “documented hardship” but, basically, NO ONE got out of service to go to college or based on “family connections”.
    .
    He did tell me about the population size and the impact it had on service. It explains why their military actions are short and harsh – but also why losses affect them much more than they do here.
    .
    I would assume that their “border functions” would be the equivalent of our ICE, separate from the military but employing former members when needed. That would not necessarily mean that their border guards would be exempted from military service.
    .
    http://www.ivolunteer.org.il/Eng/Index.asp?ArticleID=113&CategoryID=131

  • kbanginmotown

    hippo: There is a (D) in the White House. Ergo, the media find their spine and are critical.

  • paulejb

    hippooath@14.3,
    .
    Do you believe that this action has been well thought out by Barack Obama? This administration has been speaking with divergent voices on a no fly zone in Libya.
    .
    What is the goal? Prevent Libyan air assets from engaging rebels? Regime change? Just what do we want to achieve?
    .
    What if the assault on rebel positions continues with just artillery and armor? Do we bomb?
    .
    Does anyone in the Obama administration have any idea where this is all going?

  • kbanginmotown

    Exactly. All depends on who’s in the WH.
    .
    if (POTUS == “R”) then
    _execute(bomb_bomb_bomb_iran);
    elseif (POTUS == “D”) then
    _WTF_no_foreign_warz_!!1!
    endif

  • http://jessecarpenterii.wordpress.com jessecarpenterii

    Somebody has to hold these tyrants accountable. It saddens me greatly that the US, Britain and a select few others have to be the world`s policeman. But,,, I guess it`s like dirty harry said; it`s a D_ _ dirty job and somebodies got to do it. Who else is it gonna be? Huh,,,,,

  • http://vdkloos.wordpress.com vdkloos

    For those who ignore it:
    Of course there are attrocities happening at this very moment! and it must be stop, for yesterday is too late. Kadaffi is a monster!!! He ordered the PanAm bomb personally!!!! or did you forget it???

  • paulejb

    shepherdwong@14.14,
    .
    Doubt that Gaddafi would be so frisky if George W were still in office. My guess is that he would have gotten out of Dodge with as much cash as he could.

  • allthingsinaname

    “Does anyone in the Obama administration have any idea where this is all going?”
    .
    Do you, me, the GOP, the Dems, anybody? What the hell is your point?

  • http://redneckdemocrat.wordpress.com redneckdemocrat

    Time to reinstate the draft. Then we’ll see how fast our political leaders rush to war. Boy you guys are small thinkers.

  • fhmadvocat

    I think Massimo makes an interesting point. Why are we going into Libya? Is it to really to protect civilians? Or is the reason more political, that Obama doesn’t want to be blamed for “losing” Libya? The U.N. has been rangling over the “no-fly zone” for weeks and only took action when it looked like Gaddafi would wipe out the rebels. Now, the West is trying to assure a rebel victory without directly “interfering”. But it is not going to work.

    Gaddafi is crazy like a fox. He is biding his time. He will be willing to set for weeks, even months, until he believes the West will lose interest. As long as he doesn’t shoot, he will use our own morality against us.

    The rebels have a reprieve, but for how long? Will they go back to fighting? Will the international coalition provide air cover? Will they negotiate?

    Does the West think Gaddafi will negotiate his exit? I highly doubt it. While Gaddafi has millions if not billions, his money is in countries that don’t want him. He could go to Zimbabwe, but who wants to live in a failed state?

  • afguy

    What is the goal? Prevent Libyan air assets from engaging rebels? Regime change? Just what do we want to achieve?
    .
    paulie, there’s a reason they call it a “no-fly zone” and not a “regime change zone”… figure it out yourself. The rebels don’t have much of an Air force anyway, if at all.
    .
    His planes aren’t the major part of Gadaffi’s offensive capability right now anyway. Addressing armor and artillery attacks is going to take some MAJOR discussion beyond this resolution…
    .
    But at least the resolution made it VERY CLEAR that it didn’t include authorization for further “occupation by foreign troops” BY DEFAULT.
    .
    Wonder where they got the idea they needed to make THAT plainly understood?

  • kbanginmotown

    I lost track of the number of “drill, baby, drill” references in this thread, but to answer them all, here’s the 411 on oil production during the Obama administration: It has spiked upwards, yet prices are still climbing (ergo, it’s time to invade another oil field):
    .
    http://www.good.is/post/drill-baby-drill-fails-american-oil-production-spikes-under-obama-prices-still-soar/

  • hippooath

    “Do you believe that this action has been well thought out by Barack Obama? This administration has been speaking with divergent voices on a no fly zone in Libya.”
    .
    I think they know as much as we do when it comes to Libya.
    .
    “What is the goal? Prevent Libyan air assets from engaging rebels? Regime change? Just what do we want to achieve?”
    .
    You’re asking us and Obama? You and Freeinpa just want to bomb – that’s even less planning than not knowing what it’ll take.
    .
    “What if the assault on rebel positions continues with just artillery and armor? Do we bomb?”
    .
    Good question – you and Freeinpa seems to argue doing the right thing. So what is the right thing?
    .
    “Does anyone in the Obama administration have any idea where this is all going?”
    .
    But you do – you want to do the right thing, so what will that lead too?

  • hippooath

    “Doubt that Gaddafi would be so frisky if George W were still in office. My guess is that he would have gotten out of Dodge with as much cash as he could.”
    .
    Yeah because other than Iraq Bush was known for taking on every single other horrible act in the world. In every corner of the world. Or not.

  • michaelfury
  • http://dajhilton.wordpress.com dajhilton

    “somewhat shocking”? SOMEWHAT shocking that the U.S. is preparing to take military action against Libya.

    What is genuinely shocking is that absolutely no one in the so-called ‘international community’ showed any support for the US taking military action when Libya was only killing Americans. Now that the Colonel is supposedly ‘killing his own people’, now we are ready to take action?

    I am the graduate of a university – Syracuse – whose students – 43 of them – were murdered by Colonel Ghaddafi in 1988. Despite the recent horrors in Virginia Tech, it is my university and my classmates whose deaths remain unavenged and unaccounted for.

    So for murdering a few hundred Americans Ghaddafi gets a pass. But for resisting with force the armed attempted takeover of his country by a new regime likely to be equally unfriendly to the West, that justifies US military action? and perhaps the loss of further US lives?

    This is madness.
    Obama will pay for this lack of judgment.

  • perrywhite1

    I don’t really see what the problem is. By my lights, Obama has done exactly what he should have, when he should have.

  • formerlyjames

    Excellent analysis, MC, and some excellent comments here as well. We don’t know who is who. We needed this discourse during the run up to the Iraq attack and before that in the extended effort in Afghanistan. Hope it serves some purpose now. Just a hope. When the drums of war start pounding, America saving humanity, all of that nonsense, reason can’t be heard over the din.

  • paulejb

    allthings…@14.21,
    .
    You and I are not the Commander-in-Chief, allthings. We can not order young Americans to go in harms way. Only one man can do that and I fear he is clueless.

  • troubador222

    That because the spike in prices have had zero to do with supply and demand. It’s all a result of the futures market. The term is “asset bubble’. It’s partially because of the instability in Libya and elsewhere, but it’s also because quite a few of the pension funds have been entering the oil futures again. Demand is down, though growing slightly again, but way down comparing it to the pre-recession levels. Several of the financial news outlets, along with NPR, MSNBC, CBS and FOX have covered this.

    .
    BTW I am not claiming any big conspiracy in the market to drive up price. The Commodities market has exploded over the last decade and many more institutions use it as a place to invest money. According to what I read in the Wall Street Journal article that addressed it, the entire oil supply is bought and sold on average of 3 times a day.

    .
    One thing that is worth noting, the increase in the market came about due to deregulation, just like the derivative markets, with a lowering of the amount of capital needed to back speculation in the market.

  • waynebernard

    Here’s how well it went the last time a foreign power tried to intervene in Libya:

    http://viableopposition.blogspot.com/2011/03/libya-remembering-reagans-attack.html

    Twenty-five years later and Muammar is still in power.

  • shepherdwong

    My guess is…
    .
    Well that’s the problem in a nutshell there, pal. You showed up here and started stinking up the place, talking out your @ss without ever providing any facts, useful information or anything resembling thoughtful reasoning – just crappy partisan talking points and failed derisive sarcasm. You have about zero credibility here except with the other authoritarian-followers, no one cares what you guess.

  • paulejb

    afguy@14.22,
    .
    You are the Air Force guy, afguy. Why don’t you tell us what to expect. The Navy does not have the assets in the Mediterranean to handle the no-fly zone over Libya, so how do you see it getting done?

  • troubador222

    I am not sure what I think about this action yet but I can think of one good reason to go against Quadaffi and that is because Libya sits between Tunisia and Egypt and they both seem to me moving toward representative democracy. If Quadaffi Duck held on to power there would be good reason to believe he could try to undermine that move in both those countries.

    .
    I really think it’s premature to say we are going into am all out war with Libya. I believe it will be limited to airstrikes. What happens if like in Bosnia the action is successful, the rebels succeed when the the playing field is leveled? Some of this strikes me as hysteria. (Not unlike the fall out from Japan)

  • paulejb

    shepherdwong@14.26,
    .
    A few thoughts, wong…
    .
    1. You wouldn’t recognize a fact if it jumped up and bit you on the butt.
    .
    2. Your idea of intelligent debate is to shout insults at the top of your voice.
    .
    3. Since I got here, you have been stymied. I ignore your thuggish tactics and respond with reason and logic. Two things that you are obviously not familiar with.
    .
    4. My advice — Cut your losses. Quit while while you’re behind, wong

  • http://haiduc2011.wordpress.com haiduc2011

    Change the ‘Why Are We Going to War with Libya?’ title to ‘Why Are We Going to War with Gaddafi?’ or even ‘Why Is Gaddafi Going to War with Libya?’ .

    The assumption that US (and its allies) is going to war with ‘Libya’ is completelly bogus. Gaddafi is not Libya and Libya is not Gaddafi. There is a government in Libya, and that government is in Bengazi. Gaddafi is just a rebel warlord with an army of mercenaries. US is responding to pleas of help from the people of Libya.
    We may choose to help them or not, or they may choose to reject our support.

    P.S. I honestly think US did a great job at rallying the rest of the world against Gaddafi.

  • afguy

    You are the Air Force guy, afguy. Why don’t you tell us what to expect. The Navy does not have the assets in the Mediterranean to handle the no-fly zone over Libya, so how do you see it getting done?
    .
    Well, if we (or another UN member) have NO AF bases close enough to do one, I guess it had better be done by some one else’s Navy who has a carrier available for the mission. Or we have to “sweet-talk” some country that’s a neighbor into letting us have landing rights.
    .
    Maybe, someone will have to maintain enough air superiority to allow aerial tankers off the coast of Libya to maintain a 24-hour umbrella over that no-fly zone, flying fighters into the area as needed on a “station-keeping” mission. With an AWACS or three to guarantee the radar coverage (in case one breaks) and sortie direction.
    .
    We stationed tankers off of the Vietnamese coast 24×7 too to service strikes going to/coming out of the North.
    .
    Been done before… but it gets expensive.
    .
    Who am I kidding though… we’re rolling in money right now… right?

  • paulejb

    hippooath@14.23,
    .
    1. Hillary Clinton just testified before Congress telling them that; “previous no-fly zones set up over Iraq and Serbia had little effect.”
    .
    SECDEF, Robert Gates, warned that a no-fly zone may not be the best solution.
    .
    2. Bomb what? Air defenses? Air bases? What about collateral damage? Do we want more pictures of dead Muslims running every hour on Al-Jazeera?
    .
    3. What is the right thing? The right thing would be not to walk into this with our eyes closed. Remember the law of unintended consequences.
    .
    4. Are you expecting me to make decisions for the Commander-in-Chief?

  • afguy

    That point has been made on more than one occasion.

  • formerlyjames

    The US interest? Oil prices? Humanity? I can’t follow your pitch.
    .
    I see on the CBS News that Britain and France warplanes will go in. I have no problem with that, as they are wrestling with the Islamic religious fanatic refugees and it is in their interest to head off another flight of the idiots to their countries. Need to keep a lid on the Islamic diaspora. But your point is pretty nothing to me.

  • paulejb

    afguy@14.29,
    .
    The Brits just scrapped the Ark Royal, their last carrier. The Charles De Gaulle is not of much use.

  • paulejb

    What if the Libyan no-fly zone is as effective as that over Iraq and Serbia? What do we do then?

  • rdw56

    According to him, the exceptions had to do with “documented hardship” but, basically, NO ONE got out of service to go to college or based on “family connections”

    ******************************************

    Yes, we agree Israel is very different in this regard but you overstated your case. Not everyone serves.

    As far as reducing manpower needs is simply using capitalist incentives to reduce the stress on the population for service. Not that fewer people will serve but reserve and other demands will be less. What Sharon and then Netanyahu wanted to do was to reduce the cost of defense as a percent of GDP using technology to lower cost while increasing lethality and then turn their focus to use technology to increase manpower productivity and thus lower needs. In addition much can be outsourced.

    The model isn’t the USA where it’s simply expense allocation. Israel’s defense industry has far more invested in the defense of Israel obviously because it’s their survival as well. Some things the IDF does not will be done but their private sector in the future under the control./mgt of the IDF. The private defense sector will grow. The IDF won’t shrink but the length of time required for reserve duty will shrink.

    Look further into the future and operations such as in Gaza and Southern Lebanon could be a mixture of IDF and private security forces. Think of Blackwater but higher quality.

    Another way to look at it is to compare the USA military 1971 versus 2011. Volunteer versus Draft. The difference is astounding. Israel can never go fully professional nor does it want to do so but it will go in that direction as a way to reduce the length of time and stress on service ofr the average Israeli.

  • afguy

    Well, paulie, the NICE thing is that the refueling systems on the world’s aircraft are pretty well standarized.
    .
    Our tankers can easily be “adapted” to fuel the Allied aircraft. The AF has to hang “baskets” on is refueling booms to “top off” the Navy birds anyway.
    .
    Maybe that what they mean by our being mainly in a “support role” for this “clam-bake”.

  • rdw56

    mercenaries. Say it. Go on. Stop mincing words. Euphemisms are euphemisms are euphemisms. Just say “mercenaries”.

    *******************************************

    Wrong term. Mercenaries or soldiers of fortune fight for money without caring about the sides. Israel can’t and doesn’t need to hire these kinds of mercenaries. They have a home grown crop of professional soldiers already in the business working as private contractors. Israel is now a highly developed nation with a highly educated workforce. There is a certain disadvantage with having doctors and other highly professional experts leave their jobs to fulfill a reserve requirement. The idea is to create a new ‘defense’ profession as we have done except outside the standard military structure, under the control of the IDF, of highly professional and experiences soldiers can make more money doing much of the same work. Unleash capitalism. Use these professionals to fill the gaps.

  • mjkoch

    The United States cannot and should not immerse itself in every conflict but we cannot afford to do nothing either. History has shown that only when America takes the lead have brutality, oppression, and genocide ended. It was America whose strength brought down Hitler’s Germany, the Facists in Italy, and imperial Japan, and it is because of America that South Koreans breathe the air of freedom every day while their counterparts in the north fight famine and oppression and zero freedom.

    It was America that helped bring down the iron curtain of Communism across Europe and when one visits Poland, the Czech Republic, Hungary, and many other countries in Europe we realize that the democracies these countries have and the liberties their people now possess are due in large part to America’s strength of will, and that although America did not have to fire one bullet or drop one bomb in their defense it was America that helped defeat Russia’s stranglehold on eastern Europe. It was the Statue of Liberty the protesters in Tianenman Square held high, not the symbols of any other country.

    It was America that ended the famine in Somalia and America that helped end genocide in Kosovo. Yes, we made many mistakes in Iraq and Afghanistan but fifty million people from those countries are able to vote for their leaders for the first time in their history and although their democracies are imperfect they do not compare with the brutality of Saddam Hussein or the oppression of the Taliban, and thankfully, because of America, young girls in Afghanistan can grow up dreaming about being a lawyer, doctor, or business owner instead of being terrorized and made to marry when they are ten or eleven years old.

    Just as with our experience in Vietnam, we cannot and should not let the debacle in Iraq keep us silent and acquiesce to dictatorships around the world. America should have been more forceful with our ally Bahrain and prevented them from beating and killing the protestors. Unfortunately, America is caught in a Sunni Shia feud that is being exacerbated by Iran who is doing everything it can to export trouble to Gaza, Lebanon, Syria, Bahrain, and Saudi Arabia. Iran seeks to destabilize the Middle East and despite Obama’s hand that was extended in friendship they have refused all overtures from the White House. We cannot prevent Bahrain and Saudi Arabia’s fears about the Shiites destabilizing their regimes until we are firm with Iran – not with the threat of military force but with crippling sanctions that have teeth even if the Chinese and Russians, for monetary reasons only, refuse to side with America.

    Ghadaffi’s assets must be frozen and members of his family must be charged along with him with crimes against humanity. Although we should not send troops we should encourage and aid nations from the Arab world and Europe in supplying humanitarian needs to the people and if Ghadaffi’s killings go on airlifting arms to the rebels thru our allies should take place. The United Nations must make Libya a pariah instead of the prior insanity of allowing Libya to have a seat on the U.N. Human Rights Council. (Likewise, we should refuse the recent request of Syria to have a seat on the council as they are a serial violator of human rights.)

    Without America there will never be a solution to the Israeli Palestinian conflict. The genocide in Darfur will not end unless America is involved, and the massive aid that Japan needs will not be possible without America. Whether it is responding to the earthquake in Haiti or the tsunami in Japan it is America the world looks to for leadership. Oh, there are those who will decry and belittle the term “American Exceptionalism” but the words should convey leadership and strength in the face of oppression, brutality, genocide, natural disasters, and famine. Many Americans question why we have to always be the ones who make the greater sacrifices but the end result in most cases has been a freer and better world, and I fear that if America’s voice ever becomes silent the world will become a far darker place.

  • formerlyjames

    Trick question? We put troops on the ground? Please enlighten me.

  • afguy

    rdw,
    .
    If you followed the link, you’d find that those religious groups may not want to serve in combat roles but DO want to serve in some way. Hence the other service options. They don’t completely “skate” on the requirement.
    .
    I can see paying doctors extra to support the military after they leave medical school. The U.S. military stopped training its own medical personnel years ago.
    .
    As for the “other professional personnel” – their obligation would arise and be satisfied BEFORE they became “other professional personnel”.
    .
    The problem arises when you let them OUT of their obligation to serve to go to school to become “an important professional person”, now too important to be put in harm’s way.
    .
    Which, incidentally, is where we find ourselves now. Too many “privileged few” who see themselves as too vital to the world at large be spared.
    .
    So no stomach for a “universal service requirement” here.

  • formerlyjames

    mjkoch, way, way over the top. Chill, dude. You suffer from serious fatal Americanization. We have a great country, granted. We cannot deliver it on a platter to the rest of the idiot world. Get a grip.

  • afguy

    First off, the size of the “no-fly zone” proposed for Libya is multiples of the size for Iraq.
    .
    We don’t appear to have the number of base options with surrounding countries we had with Iraq either.
    .
    Gadaffi has an advantage in armor, artillery and maybe ground forces. Not sure the N-F zone is going to hurt him THAT much at this point (or ever).
    .
    Let’s just say we’re running “up hill” with this one. There never were a lot of good options available.

  • paulejb

    afguy@14.33,
    .
    Just how will all this work? Who will be in tactical command? What is the SAR capability available? From where will aircraft stage? How long will it take to get operational? What is the capability of pilots from different participating countries? If Gaddafi’s air assets stand down but his ground forces continue the offensive, then what?

  • paulejb

    Wonder if the Russians and Chinese are playing a deep game in not vetoing authorization to use force with Libya?

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    Not that I am necessarily advocating military intervention, but I do think at times like these the correct question is not “Is this in the interest of the United States or the American people,” but rather “Is this the right thing to do?” I appreciate the thoughtful criticism, Massimo, but I think priority number one for America and the world must be putting an end to the bloodshed, an end to Qaddadfi’s tyranny. If military intervention is deemed the best option to do so, than so be it…

  • afguy

    Beats me, paulie.
    .
    The operational details you’ll have to ask the U.N. and whoever they put in charge.
    .
    If the N-F zone doesn’t work then there’ll be additional discussion about what’s next (if anything). The authorization here definitely isn’t open-ended.
    .
    They learned their lesson about someone “taking a mile if given an inch” from last time on THAT.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    *then

  • afguy

    I personally don’t think either of them will be crying in their vodka if we get bogged down in another “endeavor” in the ME.

  • paulejb

    afguy@14.37,
    .
    Are you kidding? I wouldn’t trust the UN to organize a one car funeral.

  • paulejb

    formerlyjames@30.1,
    .
    The hell if I know. I am still not sure just what the real objective might be.
    .
    Regime change? Unlikely to happen from the air.
    .
    Protect civilians? How is that done from 15,000 feet?
    .
    Arm rebels with sophisticated weapons? And what if they are sold to Al-Qaeda?
    .
    All I see are a lot of bad choices in a place occupied by people on both sides of the civil war who have little love for Americans.

  • paulejb

    Exiled_at_Home…@33.1,
    .
    Why now? Gaddafi has been a tyrant for four decades. And in all those years, he has never promoted himself above Colonel.

  • afguy

    You don’t have to. The U.N. in and of itself has NO military members. Its member countries do.
    .
    Note I said “whoever they put in charge”…. THAT’s the one who has to come up with the plan. There are a number of military individuals from a variety of countries that would fit that bill.
    .
    Part of the problem is that WE don’t like ANYONE else telling us what to do.
    .
    To us, a “coalition” is something we get to be in charge of. We’re “chiefs”… we’ve never done the “Indian” bit very well.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    I suppose the fact that he instigated a violent civil war by ordering a brutal and deadly crackdown on largely peaceful protesters could play a factor in why it might be now necessary to intervene. I’m not saying that military intervention is the answer. I’m suggesting that decisions need to be made on how to put an end to this and that the priority should be putting an end to this, not what best serves America’s interests. This is not about America.

  • afguy

    Exiled,
    .
    If we as a country weren’t already involved up to our a$$holes in “nation-building” in a couple of other “scenic vacation spots”, we MIGHT be better positioned to consider meaningful actions in Libya (just as we MIGHT have in Egypt).
    .
    Then again, minus those other “actions” and a little more moral “even-handedness” on our part, our reputation in the ME might not be in the proverbial “toilet”.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    I’m not advocating a ‘nation-building’ intervention in Libya. Nor am I comparing this situation to the wars in Afghanistan/Iraq. I am not suggesting that those ventures were justifiable. But, quite frankly, our standing in the Middle East and our strained military resources notwithstanding, we have to simplify this and do our part to support justice.

  • tanboontee

    Intervention, intervention, still intervention.

    War, war, yet a new war.

    Everyone tries hard to rationalize an action, be it ludicrously naive. There is no necessity for the superpower to give conflicting yet ridiculous excuses for opening up another war front.

    Just go on and do whatever they like, perhaps only history can be the true arbiter, and time the final judge. (btt1943, vzc1943)

  • Cliff

    OT, but at 120 comments who really cares:
    .
    A while back, momentomori posted a link to the Redstate page where rusty complained to the editors about being banned.
    .
    I took a breath and followed the links to where he made the offending comments.
    .
    Turns out he didn’t get banned for being too right wing, he got banned because he had the balls to suggest that both Republicans and Democrats be held accountable for spending.
    .
    This is blasphemy in the Church of Limbaugh, and rusty was accordingly deemed a heretic and excommunicated.
    .
    I just wanted to point this out.

  • afguy

    Agreed. OUR problem is that we simply don’t have the “bodies” to send any more… unless we want to tell the present members that they are, once again, “needed” in another country – to “load up” for yet another trip to a country that really doesn’t like us very much.
    .
    I think this would be both a lot “easier” and “harder” to accomplish if we had more individual “buy-in” into our military endeavors.
    .
    “Easier”, in that we’d have more moral dedication to the missions once decided, but “harder” in that it would be a LOT fewer of these little “excursions” that would be deemed morally worthwhile.
    .
    The view’s a lot different if YOUR child or friend is leaving his wife and family for an extended time.
    .
    Open-ended commitments to “nation-building” would seem a LOT less justifiable, somehow.

  • afguy

    Funny, I thought he got banned for “excessive civility”…
    .
    He was downright polite. Something we’ve never seen here from him…

  • formerlyjames

    Exiled, I think we have heard this argument before. It proved to be flaccid as I recall. It will prove to be productive now? I think not.

  • formerlyjames

    rusty is banned?

  • Cliff

    At least he’s banned from Redstate.
    .
    To my knowledge he hasn’t been banned here.
    .
    Except for that one time in 2008, where he threatened Obama’s life.

  • afguy

    formerly,
    .
    From RedState he is.
    .
    It just occurred to me…
    .
    Anyone else think he acts like the kid in high school that NO ONE likes, but is really obnoxious to everyone because THAT’s the ONLY way he can get ANYONE to pay him any attention?
    .
    Rusty’s own “family” threw him out… and he’s MAD at the world as a result.

  • pelhamite1

    A little heavy there, mjkoch, but by and large I am with you. I am more ashamed of the times we should have acted and didn’t: Cambodia, Rwanda, Bosnia, the Holocaust than I am of the errors of commssion, although we would do well to avoid them where possible. It is easy to be cynical of America’s efforts, but the point is if we and our allies do not act in some way or fashion, Qaddafi will likely kill tens of thousands in Benghazi and the surrounding areas. The US, and Britain and France and Italy have a moral imperative to act and lives will be saved because they are doing so. For now, that is what matters.

    Thanks for adding your voice here, mjkoch

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    James,
    If you’re referring to the toppling of Saddam’s government for “humanitarian” reasons, then I would have to point out one glaring and fundamental difference: the Iraqi people were not already in a revolt attempting to remove him from power. In the case of Iraq, the desire (or at least the effort) to remove Saddam from power was external, i.e. the United States. In the case of Libya, the desire is internal and external, and the actions have already internally begun. As opposed to imposing regime change in Iraq, we’d be assisting in regime change in Libya. Quite different situations, in my opinion.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    Cliff,

    Might I inquire as to your point? I get that you find international affairs such as revolution, refugee crises, and humanitarian disasters to be boring in comparison to the exhilarating details of campaign finances and domestic budgetary policies, but, even then, what point are you making with this Rusty anecdote? I’m not trying to be combative, I’m just genuinely confused -as I generally am when people discuss the mundane trivialities of domestic American politics…

  • liberalmeltdown

    Obama was dragged into this kicking and screaming. He never thought that the UN would actually pass a resolution. He sure didn’t think that the Arab League would get behind it. Then again, perhaps he doesn’t think at all.
    .
    Our Middle East policy looks like a game of darts on a map. Or, maybe Obama is making bracket picks. He’s so good at that.
    .
    Here’s some more questions for inquiring minds: Why didn’t we support the rebellion in Iran? Why did we turn around and support the rebellion in Eygpt, but not Libya? Why does our president bowdown to Saudi Kings?

  • pelhamite1

    Let us take a breath and look at what the mission is here. It is not to impose a chosen successor. It is to keep a brutal dictator from slaughtering his people. That should not make us a target in the Arab world, it may even make us less of a target in places like Iraq and Afghanistan.

    Moreover, the geography of Libya is such that there should not be much loss of life if we follow smart tactics. Libya is basically a coastal strip of land roughly three miles wide 400 miles long. It can be pretty easily policed by some boats sitting offshore and establishing a lethal shield. Not to say that it is risk free but it ought be substantially easier than either Irag or Afghanistan.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    The Iranian “rebellion” had zero chance of success absent external military intervention. Intervening militarily in Iran would have been the single worst decision President Obama could have made. We lent nothing to the Egyptian protests but rhetoric, which is about as much as we’ve lent the Libyan rebellion, thus far, so I don’t see a vast difference in his approach there. And our President bowed to the Saudi King because that is the customary thing to do, you know diplomatic etiquette and all that. Nixon bowed to Emperor Hirohito, the same responsible for the bombings at Pearl Harbor years earlier. I wonder, did that make the US look weak? Meltdown, please find something substantive to contribute.

  • allthingsinaname

    “You and I are not the Commander-in-Chief, allthings. We can not order young Americans to go in harms way. Only one man can do that and I fear he is clueless.”
    .
    Then why do you pretend otherwise? Why do you pretend that you always know more, have all the facts, and have all the answers?

  • Cliff

    Well, there were a couple factors here. First is that I don’t have to worry about derailing the thread, as opposed to a post with, say, ten comments. But I also know that people are still posting on this one.
    .
    The next is that every morning, rusty comes in here and wreaks havoc. Whole discussions are held about how just how much of a jerk he is.
    By the time I get a chance to comment, everyone’s usually long gone.
    So I usually leave it, but this Redstate thing stood out to me.

  • formerlyjames

    I’ve said it before, I say it again, I like rusty here. I don’t need homogenized discourse. He adds flavor. Also, as I’ve said, unanimity is not a good thing.

  • formerlyjames

    Exiled, I must catch my breath. There was no revolution in Iraq, but we saved them whether they wanted it or not. Now there is revolution and we must dash in to save the people. Allow me to take a break here to think about it.

  • hippooath

    “1. Hillary Clinton just testified before Congress telling them that; “previous no-fly zones set up over Iraq and Serbia had little effect.””
    .
    And? Our Military do not want to do this, Obama don’t want to get into a mess and basically no one want to go into a country where we don’t know who we’re ‘saving’.
    .
    “SECDEF, Robert Gates, warned that a no-fly zone may not be the best solution.”
    .
    And? See my response to 1.
    .
    “2. Bomb what? Air defenses? Air bases? What about collateral damage? Do we want more pictures of dead Muslims running every hour on Al-Jazeera?”
    .
    Exactly – yet Freeinpa wants to do the right thing.
    .
    “3. What is the right thing? The right thing would be not to walk into this with our eyes closed. Remember the law of unintended consequences.”
    .
    So why are you backing up Freeinpa? He wants to do the right thing. No one else think this is a good idea.
    .
    “4. Are you expecting me to make decisions for the Commander-in-Chief?”
    .
    What a dumb question. You’re the one questioning Obama no matter what he does, and then you more or less hint that you dont want this.
    .
    What you’re trying to imply is that Obama is doodling. He’s dragging his feet indecisively and suddenly he said – let’s do no fly zone. In a complete vacuum with no one else telling him what they think, like our military leaders. But you yourself seems to wonder, ‘what’s the end game?’ Is this a good idea? What are we going to do? This boggles my mind; Obama is a bumbling fool – apparently for taking his time, but you yourself can’t think of any good reasons, nor what to expect from attacking Libya. Only in ideologue fantasy world do anyone post so many questions about WHY and yet find some amazing ability to put everything for Obama for probably thinking the same as you and I do. But he’s bumbling around?
    ,
    Seriously paule – you’re hatred of everything Obama is as silly as Freeinpa, who can’t tell us why, but it’s the right thing to do.

  • johnwerneken

    War vs Nazi regiemes is justified, if any war is. We prolly lack the material where-with-all for invasion but then nobody seems to think that that would be a good idea even if practical. We do have the muscle to supress his air and armour and perhaps to take his life by a hard all-arms strike, which I hope Mr Obama is planning to do if it seems doable to our military leaders.

  • http://nightowl789.wordpress.com baileys789

    If a report stating that some 80% of fanatics volunteering to fight and kill Americans in Iraq were from E Libya it may be that Gaddafi is the enemy of our enemies; proxies for Al Qaeda.
    Who has taken Mubarack’s place in Egypt. Who will take Gaddafis place in Libya. Very slippery ground with all that oil underfoot.

  • Cliff

    I’m not advocating that he get banned here.
    .
    I bring it up to try to clarify what happened at Redstate.

  • http://enewsreport.blogspot.com/ Sanskar

    World Should not attack libya, it will create another Iraq, and just like it happened there, West will experience critics and non popularity later. Islamic terrorists may get provoked even though Arab league is in favour of no flying zone in Libya, but still you never know there ideology.

    ~With Regards
    Sanskar
    (http://www.theworldreporter.com/)

  • michaeljjordan

    It’s always dangerous to draw historic parallels, but can Benghazi 2011 avoid the fate of Budapest 1956? http://jordanink.wordpress.com/2011/03/18/benghazi-2011-budapest-1956/

  • liberalmeltdown

    “Meltdown, please find something substantive to contribute.”
    .
    I did. Here’s more:
    .
    http://www.jihadwatch.org/2009/04/obama-bows-to-saudi-king.html
    .

    Breach of protocol. “Americans do not bow to foreign monarchs because that act signified the monarch’s power over his subjects.”

    “Obama bows down to Saudi King (updated),” by Clarice Feldman at The American Thinker, April 2 (thanks to Doc Washburn):

    [...] See Miss Manners on the protocol. Americans do not bow to foreign monarchs because that act signified the monarch’s power over his subjects
    .
    .
    Previous to bowing to the Saudi King he did not bow to the Queen of England and returned a bust of Churchill that was given to Obama as a gift. A the time the White House denied that Obama bowed, remember?
    .
    http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0409/White_House_No_bow_to_Saudi.html
    .

    The White House is denying that the president bowed to King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia at a G-20 meeting in London, a scene that drew criticism on the right and praise from some Arab outlets.

    “It wasn’t a bow. He grasped his hand with two hands, and he’s taller than King Abdullah,” said an Obama aide, who spoke on the condition of anonymity.

    The Washington Times called the alleged bow a “shocking display of fealty to a foreign potentate” and said it violated centuries of American tradition of not deferring to royalty. The Weekly Standard, meanwhile, noted that American protocol apparently rules out bowing, or at least it reportedly did on the occasion of a Clinton “near-bow” to the emperor of Japan.
    .
    Obama is the leader of the most powerful country in the world. He can encourage people to revolt as he did in Egypt and offer support in many ways other that military force. I didn’t suggest that we use the military in Iran, you did.
    .
    His Secretary of State calls for regime change as part of our involvement, yet Obama doesn’t mention it. He leaves Hillary twisting in the wind, like the Iranian people. Halfheartedly supporting a revolution and encouraging people to stand up and then withdrawing support is deadly for people in countries like Iran.
    .
    Halfheartedly going to war doesn’t work out well either. We have several examples of conducting “war exercises,” conflicts, working with “coalitions.” Coalitions that soon leave us to bear the burden. Gulf War I, we should have taken out Saddam then. Imagine how different things would have been. Instead we left a desperate and insane leader in charge to slaughter thousands of people. And now, this is the reason that we are going after Gaddafi for the very same thing that Saddam did.
    .
    Irony of ironies. If there is one thing you can depend on from the left, it’s inconsistency.
    .
    We should have taken Gaddafi out long ago. He killed American citizens. That’s an act of war.
    .

  • rdw56

    So no stomach for a “universal service requirement” here

    ************************************************************

    It has nothing to do with stomach. It’s pure common sense. Some people are cowards. Some people are stupid. Some people simply have no aptitude for the work. Capitalism is about efficient allocation and democracy is about popular support. We’ve hit the sweet spot with the modern military.

    Among the many delicious ironies of ending the draft is the, unanticipated by the majority of the left, advent of an authentically professional and effective military with very wide public support. Rather than diminish our ability to make war we are far more powerful than we would otherwise be. It’s easier to make war because we have professional warriors all of whom volunteered for the job and there’s no draft related stress to generate viable protests. The attempts to generate protests against Iraq were so pathetic as to be counter-productive.

    The threats against Israel are so severe and their population so small they don’t have this option. But they do continue to improve their capabilities relative to their enemies and the fence has been a godsend. The stress on the population is so low Time was astonished a few months back the population was bored by Obama’s inane attempts at negotiations. They have become very prosperous and relatively secure. the obvious path is to continue investing in technology which we know makes soldiers more productive and better protected. Productivity is a concept that applies to the military as well as business. As the average soldier becomes more lethal fewer can provide the same firepower and defensive capabilities than just a few years ago. With better protections they are also more durable. Thus the opportunities to make the job less riskier and more lucrative abound. Capitalism will find a way to both attract more professional soldiers within the base population serving directly in the IDF or as a more highly paid and specialized contractor.

    One of the reasons the Sec of the Air force and the AF chief of staff were fired a few years back is they were dragging their feet on expanding the supplies of drone. Among the bureaucratic roadblocks was only a trained pilot certified to fly actual jets could ‘pilot’ a drone. There is simply no reason for that. Those dramatic firings ended all roadblocks. In theory there are teenage gamers better able to control drones than many Air Force veterans. We now have a highly capable weapon system perfect for counter insurgency rolling out at a vastly faster rate managed effectively and far less expensively by non-pilots. With a drone overhead any patrol in the field has greatly enhanced intelligence capabilities and protections. Someone sitting in Colorado can function as their guardian angel with several HDTV cameras detecting all movement and able to pinpoint the precise location of potential threats immediately and launch a missile to eliminate the threat. It’s the beginning of a drone army. Obviously this increases the safety and efficiency of our troops substantially. Special forces personal have received extensive and very expensive training. This only enhances the investment.

  • rdw56

    The problem arises when you let them OUT of their obligation to serve to go to school to become “an important professional person”, now too important to be put in harm’s way

    *********************************************

    That’s why you use technology and capitalism to utilize people more effectively. I have a very good doctor I trust implicitly as a doctor. He’s the last person I want with a gun in his hands. He’s the last person he wants with a gun in his hands. In Israel they have no choice. But they do have opportunities to minimize the obligations of those who can serve Israel far more effectively in another role while attracting those with the warrior ethos to participate more fully.

    Israel will keep their universal obligation while maximizing their allocation of manpower. Economics is as important to their long term future as the military. They need to fund those technological advances.

  • rdw56

    Which, incidentally, is where we find ourselves now. Too many “privileged few” who see themselves as too vital to the world at large be spared

    ***************************************************************

    We have a highly professional military because we have talented people who want to be there and be the best at what they do. One of the joys of the coverage outside the MSM of the iraqi war was seeing so many young people of all ranks and stripes talk about their mission so effectively. These were all clearly smart professionals very well trained some no more than 20. There was so many to be proud of.

    As far as someone thinking they’re too valuable so what? Such people make poor soldiers and even worse leaders. Think about it. Would you want to share a foxhole with someone who thinks they’re more valuable than you? Someone you know is likely to cut and run when trouble starts?

    One of the neat ironies of the attempts by so many graybeard professors to get campus anti-war protests going is they’re condescension of those who serve was greeted with contempt by those who serve. The sense of superiority from someone who’s almost certainly never served anything but themselves trying to mock those who put their lives on the line to protect others is moronic. You can’t take such people seriously. No one did.

  • afguy

    As far as someone thinking they’re too valuable so what? Such people make poor soldiers and even worse leaders. Think about it. Would you want to share a foxhole with someone who thinks they’re more valuable than you? Someone you know is likely to cut and run when trouble starts?
    .
    So, if given the choice between college, going into business to make a mint by 30, or going into the military and take a chance on being injured or killed, you THINK the decision will come down to their believing they’re not just “military” material and NOT greed, inconvenience and “self-preservation”?
    .
    Jesus, rdw… do you really even believe this yourself? Because, if you do, I pity you.
    .
    I separated in 1988, well after the all-volunteer force had begun, so I got to see both sides. Many of those with the “warrior ethos” you value so much were just as concerned about their own career advancement as any were on the outside. They weren’t worried about becoming the best at their jobs… they were worried about the next promotion cycle and how quickly they could climb the “ladder” to the next rank, so they didn’t have to do any of that “grunt” work.
    .
    I was an instructor… and what I saw was a number whose sense of self-advancement and self-preservation was as strong as anywhere. They weren’t willing to put in the work to be the best “technician”… they wanted to be the best “upper-level supervisor” ASAP. In short, JUST the type of individual who WOULD “cut-and run” because “there’s no career advancement in getting yourself killed”.
    .
    As for that so-called “warrior ethos”, how many “volunteers” wanted to be “warriors” and how many were there because the job situation at home sucked and this was the best of some rather limited options? More than you might be willing to admit.
    .
    Also, if the force is so full of those happy volunteers who love their work, why the need to screw them over for an extended time with “Stop Gap” to keep the manning up?
    .
    Why are these “happy warriors” coming home and increasing numbers feeling the need to stick a gun in their mouths to end the pain? Why all of the divorces, if everyone is so happy with their extended “warrior status”?
    .
    Maybe a few of them would like the chance to complete college and have a stable, happy home life, just like your “I’m not a fighter, I’m a lover” types?
    .
    I know you worship military technology and get a “woodie” talking about the killing, but as much as you want it to be simply about a success of capitalism, it never will be.
    .
    Sooner or later, we all have to be in this together because we ALL are sharing the possibility for pain and sacrifice.
    .
    Giving a self-centered few a pass because they have decided themselves that they just aren’t “warrior material” may be ideologically attractive but it isn’t going to make the others feel very charitable about sacrificing THEIR futures and lives for the career choices and creature comforts of those others.
    .
    Go to the local store and buy yourself a little humanity toward the military, rdw. You need it.
    .
    I’ve been watching this vicarious, “glad it’s not me there” cheerleading for years now.

  • kbanginmotown

    Cliff -
    I held my nose and read the link as well, and it sounded to me like Rusty was advocating a 50% reduction in the *entire federal budget, including defense*.
    .
    A couple of other commentors responded with “WTF? 50% R U serious?” and when Rusty stuck to his guns, the moderator (ha! comment sections with moderators – go figure!) decided that Rusty was trolling, gave him a red card and that was the end of it.
    .
    So, to the point of your post: Yes. He did not get banned for being too RW. But, he got banned for trolling.
    .
    Frankly, I would mind Time’s High Sheriffs spraying a little “Troll-B-Gone” around here.

  • http://thepatrioticguy.wordpress.com thepatrioticguy

    Why are we, the United States, getting ourselves into this Civil war in Libya? History has told us many times that Freedom is one thing that people in the country has to fight for. You can’t give Freedom to the people whose majority of them don’t really understand what does it mean. And if they’re ready for the change they will find their own way to make change happens. Giving a helping hands like what we’re doing now is just non-sense. We may make friend with those who need the change. But we also make enemy to those who doesn’t really care about the change. There are many things that we can spend our tax money on in our country to make our people and economy better than just to make enemy worldwide, just because of our ignorantly good-intention.

  • http://flockville.wordpress.com tflock73

    fyi – earlier you asked when in 2009 was oil below $40 a barrel. It was in January & February: http://www.nyse.tv/crude-oil-price-history.htm

    And there were times in 2006, 2007, 2008 & 2009 that it did go below $60. Granted, there were times it went much higher too.

    Just wanted to update your info.

  • http://eyeofeye12.wordpress.com chosen24

    Pawns in the Game.America continues its role in the inevitable move towards one world government.The world watches as America creates circumstances to invade or “assist” in the toppling of governments to instate new puppets which they deem more pliable to the strings of control.The question is where will the next threat to world peace or humanitarian crisis or whatever new plot deemed as the reason for knights of world peace to ride in and save the day as we speed on towards the New World Order…..or maybe we already know where it will be…..

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