State Department Spokesman Resigns Over Critique of Manning Treatment

So, P J Crowley is summarily dismissed for having the temerity to question the treatment of Bradley Manning which was given the seal of approval by Barack Obama. The White House wasted no time in getting rid of Crowley. If only President Obama would act with the same alacrity when the national security of the United States is at stake.
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The lesson here: Don’t cross the Bama, unless you are one of the world’s tyrants.

This

So, P J Crowley is summarily dismissed

and this

State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley has resigned his post

seem to indicate different realities, eh PJ?
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Resigned != “Summarily dismissed”
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Given your statements, I assume that you also find the treatment of detainees at Gitmo and black sites across the world deplorable, right PJ? If not, one can hardly take any of your comments seriously.

Shocking. 23 hour lock down? Stripped each night…what sadist makes up these rules? And how on earth would President Obama permit this, and support it? I am profoundly disappointed – yet again. I think Assange should win a Peace Prize – oh, right, that was won by Mr. Obama.

diecash1@1.1,
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Cut it out! Even you can’t be so naive as to believe that Crowley resigned voluntarily. Crowley contradicted the Presidents words. He was dumped unceremoniously. End of story.

Look, the guy screwed up publicly and he resigned. Had he thought that he was in the right, he may have resisted and been fired. Either way, the lesson is the same: Publicly showing up your boss usually leads to unemployment. After screwing up, he chose the better of his available options.

Julian Assange should win a Nobel Peace Prize. Considering all the other pointless awards that the Nobel Committee have made, Assange would fit right in among such notables as Carter, Gore, Obama, and Yasser Arafat.

diecash!@1.3,
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That’s not what you just said, champ. Crowley was lucky he wasn’t offered a blindfold and a cigarette.

Read it again “champ”. That is what I said. He resigned. Period. He didn’t have to do so, did he? It was a choice.

diecash1@1.5,
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P J Crowley resigned from State the way Charlie Sheen resigned from CBS. If you believe he had a choice than I have some seaside property in Utah that might interest you.

P J Crowley resigned from State the way Charlie Sheen resigned from CBS.

Nice work PJ! You prove my point for me. Sheen was fired for being an a$$hat while Crowley elected to resign. You’ve demonstrated zero proof that he was fired.

Just as an aside…are we going to hear anything about the ongoing protests in Madison this weekend? I mean, c’mon, there were an estimated 85,000-100,000 protesters. What was it about them that didn’t fit the MSM narrative?
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/12/wisconsin-protesters-refu_n_834927.html
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Jay: You’ve been to Alaska twice in the past 2.5 years. Any plans to go to Wisconsin? Adam? Kate? Joe?

Boy, you’re in full-blown “babble mode” today, aren’t you, paulie?
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Like your “political information propaganda director” Frank Luntz, words mean whatever you want them to at the moment, eh?

Diecash,
Are you honestly suggesting that Crowley personally feels that his earlier statements on the condition of Manning’s detention were either incorrect or, at the very least, inappropriate, so much so that he, personally, and of his own volition felt it necessary to resign his post? I, for one, found his statements to be an honest indication of his personal views on the matter, and the severity of his comments were not such that he should feel he erred in offering them. Let’s cut the bullsh!t, he was forced out by someone in the administration, whether Obama himself, or Clinton, or someone else.

Admit it, paulie… AGAIN. Your sole objective here is to throw verbal “dust” into the air, make lots of noise, and pi$$ in the Swampland water supply, NOT to engage in any substantive discussion.
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And you need Dr. Luntz to provide you and the other verbal saboteurs here with the RIGHT words to be able to do that.
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Because you certainly can’t enunciate a clear belief system on your own.
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Unless that belief system can be boiled down to one word – hatred.

Might I add, I find it entirely appropriate to question the consistency of someone who is outraged at the treatment of Manning yet silent in the matter of GITMO. I myself have fallen into the trap of trying to justify waterboarding in the past -though I have since changed my perspective on this- while finding the manner in which Manning is being detained and Assange is being rhetorically crucified to be appalling. But, right-wing hypocrisy aside, you can’t truly support the means by which Manning is being held, can you? An appropriate response to inquiries by conservatives is NOT to point to their own backing of GITMO, but rather to make a reasoned assessment of the merits of Manning’s detention.

diecash1@1.7,
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“Sources close to the matter said the resignation, first reported by CNN, came under pressure from the White House, where officials were furious about his suggestion that the Obama administration is mistreating Manning…”
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If you can’t believe CNN, who can you believe?

afguy@2.2,
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It’s not my fault that you people can’t handle the truth. If you find fault with my assertions, prove me wrong. Don’t just throw brickbats from the sidelines.
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Diecash at least made a feeble attempt to dispute my contentions and he deserves credit for at least getting into the arena.
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You on the other hand just made some lame remark which was totally off the subject.

“What was it a about them that didn’t fit the MSM narrative?”

They didn’t give members of the press delicious barbecue?

They didn’t have pretty ex-governors winking at the pundits?

They’re not members of the social and economic class that the press identifies with?

I’m just guessing.

afguy@2.3,
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You have an annoying habit of rethinking your comments and then posting addendums in your next comment. Perhaps if you gave more thought to what you want to say in the first place it would help break that habit.
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As for the rest of this comment, I refer you to 2.4.

Crowley spoke the truth, and spoke up against indecency. Clearly he had no future in politics.

EAH — You’re reading entirely too much into my commentary.

Are you honestly suggesting that Crowley personally feels that his earlier statements on the condition of Manning’s detention were either incorrect or, at the very least, inappropriate

No, that’s not what I said. Bottom line is that he probably believed what he said in regard to the treatment of Manning but he broke the cardinal rule of employment: Don’t make your boss look bad in public. He did so and, pressured or not, he made the choice to resign. If he truly believed that he was in the right, he could have stayed on and waited to see if he would be fired. At least he would maintain his principles by doing so versus resigning with his tail between his legs.

whether Obama himself, or Clinton, or someone else.

I seriously doubt that this incident rose to that level.

you can’t truly support the means by which Manning is being held, can you?

Well, up until this point, I hadn’t offered my opinion of it. Since you asked: No, I think his treatment is reprehensible and if it indeed meets the standard for treatment that Obama said he had asked about, those policies should be immediately reviewed. I see no reason to treat a prisoner this way — this guy broke the law with some serious transgressions and he should have to account for that but the reports of the conditions of confinement are abhorrent.

An appropriate response to inquiries by conservatives is NOT to point to their own backing of GITMO, but rather to make a reasoned assessment of the merits of Manning’s detention.

Maybe so but the response of the right hasn’t been to complain about Manning’s treatment. Just the opposite, they seem to think it’s just fine. Instead, they want to use this as a lodestone around the proverbial neck of the WH, as they would anything else that they could. I don’t agree with that. The real travesty of this is that the detention policies haven’t been reviewed in light of these revelations. It appears that Obama and the WH are following the letter of the law (or standing policy) in regard to the treatment of PFC Manning and I think those laws or policies should be reviewed or changed.

Exiled,
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He knew what he was doing. He made a career decision when he, after what appears to be a very long pause, said “yes” to allow the comment to be made on the record.
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I am certain that, at THAT moment, he knew what the hand-writing was going to be. When the WH allowed the Pentagon to speak for them on the matter, he was toast.
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There are a few places in one’s career where you can PLAINLY see the fork in the road. He did at that moment, knew the consequences for the statement and, I hope anyway, decided to exit the diplomatic stage with a little personal self-respect intact.
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The dissonance between our stated principles in support of rule-of-law, treatment of Manning, Assange, and justification of Gitmo are just jarring right now.
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Throw in the willingness for many in the judiciary system to simply roll over and play dead in deference to “national security”, and I wonder how we are going to recover.
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Simply put – we’ve lost our ethical and moral compass… and the ability to lecture ANY other country with a straight face on “human rights” abuses.
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Those that say “we don’t care what other countries think” probably know it too… they’re just hoping that we continue to have the biggest d!ck on the block for a few years more.

Diecash at least made a feeble attempt to dispute my contentions

Oh…okay, thanks PJ. Feeble attempt? I refuted (refudiated if you prefer) your contentions. It’s okay PJ. You can admit it.

diecash1@4.2,
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I gave to admit that your game, diecash. Wrong but game.
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P J Crowley made his remarks about Manning on Thursday at MIT. Three days later he is gone. They may call it a resignation to ease his going, but there is no doubt about what really went down.

petermilley@6,
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My favorite Crowley moment was his Happy Birthday twitter to Mahmoud Ahmadinejad for his birthday.

It’s mostly a semantical argument PJ. He knew what he was doing when he made those statements and, in the aftermath, he elected to resign whether pressured or not. He had the high ground in the argument and he chose self-preservation rather than standing by his principles. He quit.

paulejb, I’m guessing you’re referring to this:

“Happy birthday President #Ahmadinejad. Celebrate by sending Josh Fattal and Shane Bauer home. What a gift that would be. #Iran”

Were I Crowley, I’d be proud of that statement and with good reason.

diecash1@4.5,
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“It’s mostly a semantical argument PJ.”
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No it is not. Crowley spoke out of turn and contradicted the President. He was given the option to fall on his sword and he did. It was not a matter of choice. He was gone one way or the other.

He was given the option to fall on his sword and he did.

What does “option” mean to you? That would seem to imply that he had a choice as I said. Quit or stand by your beliefs and force them to fire you. That was his choice. He chose self-preservation.

petermilley@6.2,
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Enormously effective diplomacy, peter. I can’t imagine how Ahmadinejad could resist such a heart felt request when coupled with a birthday greeting.
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We are a long way from the days of “Perdicaris alive or Raisuli dead!”

diecash1@2.5,
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“Refuted?”
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If believing that helps you to get through the long ours of the night, than be my guest.
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Your contention that Crowley resigned voluntarily is ludicrous on it’s face. He was handed his hat and asked “What’s the hurry.”

diecash1@4.7,
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I suspect that falling on his sword was the better option offered, diecash. He was going, one way or the other. Being fired publicly for disloyalty would have not looked good on his resume.

Paulie,
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Obviously P.J. Crowley knew that his remarks would not be welcome by the administration, but, he made them because he knew what was right.
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He expected to be asked to leave and made it easy because he was, obviously, upset with the treatment of Manning.

“It appears that Obama and the WH are following the letter of the law (or standing policy) in regard to the treatment of PFC Manning and I think those laws or policies should be reviewed or changed.”
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Even simpler: just like on financial and health care reform, Obama is being told by powerful interests inside the cabal just how far he can go without suffering serious repercussions. Just imagine the possibilities. Obama doesn’t have to.
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Then there’s his pollsters. Even scarier.

“If believing that helps you to get through the long ours of the night, than be my guest.”
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You are asking diecash1 to be your guest making the night “ours”?
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This isn’t a dating site.

patricksartor@1.9,
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And you know this how, Pat? Are you a confidant of P J Crowley’s?

Being fired publicly for disloyalty would have not looked good on his resume.

Well PJ, it took you long enough but you finally came around to accept what I way saying. I said the same thing at 1.3:

Publicly showing up your boss usually leads to unemployment. After screwing up, he chose the better of his available options.

I’m glad you now agree that I refuted your “arguments.”

patricksartor@2.7,
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Witty, Pat. I was not aware that you had joined the spelling police. Can I get by with just a warning?

Paulie,

diecash1 has not been inconsistent.
Before, when he was still planning to make them in advance, Crowley made the remarks, he knew he was going to have to take them back or be asked to resign.
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He went ahead and resigned.
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So, you can say he voluntarily resigned when he made the remarks making his boss look bad or when he did not wait for a dismissal from the president.
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Both scenarios: he resigned.

diecash@4.10,
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I refer you to your 1.1, Your implication was that Crowley resigned voluntarily without a prompt from the White House. You wrote of “different realities.” But there is only one. Crowley did not jump, he was pushed.

patricksartor@5.1,
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Are you privy to some inside information on Crowley of which the press is unaware?
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It could be that Crowley merely opened his mouth and inserted his foot without considering the consequences.

Again, wrong answer. In 1.1 I pointed out that your contention that he was “summarily dismissed” is entirely a different reality (a false one if you didn’t get it the first time) than what actually occurred — he resigned.

Perdicaris alive or Raisuli dead!”
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It all happened in 1904, when the 64-year-old Perdicaris and his stepson found themselves taken hostage from their villa in Tangier, Morocco by a scruffy band of rifle-toting Berber tribesmen on horseback.

The bandits’ chieftain was flamboyant, black-bearded Mulai Ahmed er Raisuli, and he wanted to extort a heavy ransom from the Sultan of Morocco — not to mention embarrass the sovereign by showing his powerlessness to protect foreign citizens.
[...]
In 1862, in the middle of the Civil War, Ion Perdicaris secretly went back to Greece to forswear his American citizenship and be naturalized a Greek citizen. He made this rash move to prevent the Confederacy from confiscating his mother’s huge estate there. But few even in his family knew about it.
[...]
Seven battleships from the Atlantic fleet were dispatched to the Moroccan coast. But even with the public and press crying for blood, Roosevelt knew he couldn’t send marines on a rescue mission on unfamiliar soil. And on June 1, he was faced with further trouble — a confidential message from the U.S. embassy in Greece sending word that Perdicaris was not, as widely believed, an American citizen.
[...]

A few days later, Perdicaris was free and safe, Raisuli was $70,000 richer and Roosevelt was renominated for another term, propelling him to easily win a second term in the November elections.

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http://www.capitalcentury.com/1904.html
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So, apparently, Paulie is saying that we should pay off Iran?
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I am, very glad we are no longer paying off kidnappers.

Last Thursday, Crowley told a panel at MIT that the Pentagon’s treatment of Manning at the Marine bring at Quantico, Va., was “ridiculous and counterproductive and stupid.”

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You believe that he didn’t plan this in advance when he is professional spokesperson?

Once again:
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Last Thursday, Crowley told a panel at MIT that the Pentagon’s treatment of Manning at the Marine bring at Quantico, Va., was “ridiculous and counterproductive and stupid.”

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You believe that he didn’t plan this in advance when he is professional spokesperson?

P.J. Crowley is a professional spokesperson which, means, always standing by the administration on everything when on the job.

He made an obviously antiadministration remark at MIT.

If he made the remark at lunch, along with remarks about wine, with right wingers pretending to be a part of the Muslim Brotherhood, then, maybe, I would have thought that he Crowley did not intend to lose his job over this.

Maybe if George W Bush, Dan Quayle, Joe Biden, or even Harry Reid or Sarah Palin – all star gaff masters of day - said this, I would think it was by accident.

It seems obvious that P.J. Crowley stood by his principals.

Good man!

It is a shame that he must stand by his principals against even this administration.

If Clinton, Bush Sr, Reagan, Carter or Ford – anybody pre-GITMO – tried a stunt like this there would have been a national outcry, mostly from liberals.

Gitmo operned the doors to “harsh interrogation” and the president has failed to shut that Pandora’s box.

Sorry, this belongs after 1.10

See 2.9

patrick,
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You DO mean “we should pay off Iran” AGAIN… right?
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Remember, paulie, that was one of “St. Ronnie the Immortal’s” jewels in his adminisrative crown.
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Weapons for hostages… or did you conveniently forget?

paulie,
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Look up the phrases “intellectual consistency” and “moral consistency” and try to apply the meaning of either to your arguments.
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You seem to be all over the map with both.

Meh… What principles, exactly?

What Manning did as a soldier is pretty much the textbook definition of treason as a spy. He gave tons of confidential State information to non-Americans. If they throw the book at him, well, he deserves it. One would hope he was smart enough to understand just what he was doing when he did it. If not, then I’d question what his motives in dumping the information were, and call him one of the biggest tools ever.

They also are pretty implicit about the fact that this guy is under suicide watch. So, what exactly did you expect in terms of treatment? Sharp silverware for dinner? A good olf-fashined blade razor? Nice stretchy linens or a sturdy, long belt?

You hear that outcry from most of the US about Manning’s treatment? Yeah, me neither. 90%+ of the US understands and agrees that the guy deserves what he gets.

This was no Watergate. This was no corruption scandal. This was the wholesale exposure of State secrets to enemies of the State. You can call his actions by any other name, but it’s still treason.

As for Gitmo, I think we’ve reached the point where most people don’t care either. Try talking to anyone on the street about it. hey’ll look at you like you’re a whacko and slowly back away.

As for Crowley, he obviously sucked at his job, so he got canned. What outrage, exactly, is there on that front?

Let’s just say that P.J. Crowley is no longer in his previous position due to an incident of “excessive honesty”.
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Based on the report of the “pause” when asked if he was “on the record”, it would appear that this was a case of his expressing his personal opinion and knowing full well what the “professional” consequences could be to his career.

patricksartor@6.4,
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Where does it say that Uncle Sam came up with the $70,000?

afguy@6.6,
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You’ll have to be more specific. What is your beef this time and does it have anything to do with Frank Luntz?

patricksartor@7,
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You people insist on making a hero out of P J Crowley. Maybe he was just a fool mouthing off on something that he knew little or nothing about.
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I’d go with fool.

Patrick,

He wasn’t standing at a podium. He was in a small group and did not expect to be quoted. Yes he is a pro but It happens quite frequently. There had been rumors for quite some time he did not get along with Hillary so this might have been the result of some frustration.

6.1, what a brilliant liberal idea: send ecards to the world’s tyrants and wish them Happy Birthday. Perhaps an animated singing Obama card would solve the worlds problems.
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Singing is not his forte either.
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Fool=Hero to liberals Paul..
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Keith Olbermann, Joe Biden, Nancy Pelosi, Community Organizer in Chief, Al Gore…

“He wasn’t standing at a podium.”
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He was at MIT, not Drexel University.
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He knew the Mic was on.

“You people insist on making a hero out of P J Crowley. Maybe he was just a fool mouthing off on something that he knew little or nothing about.
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I’d go with fool.”
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A fool would back peddle and make try to justify things, like when Bush explained that there were no WMD, but, it wasn’t his fault.
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I go with hero.
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BTW: how much per post do the Koch brothers pay you guys?

patricksartor@7.4,
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You must have a dearth of heroes if you need P J Crowley to fill the bill.
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I prefer that my heroes be a little more substantial.

“Where does it say that Uncle Sam came up with the $70,000?”
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Okay, then, I guess you believe that private donors pay up $70,000 in 1904 money each.
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“What cost $70000 in 1904 would cost $1650062.61 in 2009.

Also, if you were to buy exactly the same products in 2009 and 1904,
they would cost you $70000 and $2957.71 respectively.”
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So, you find the donors to pay $1,650,062.61 each and we can have “”Perdicaris alive or Raisuli dead!” again.
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Maybe the people who pay you to post this drivel the Koch brothers can pay it.

“I prefer that my heroes be a little more substantial.”
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And who do you call a “hero” right now, Sarah Palin who bravely hires people to use Twitter for her and shoots Mouse, badly or John Boehner who bravely tans?

liberalmeltdown@7.3,
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“Fool = Hero to liberals, Paul.”
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It would appear that way, LM.
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There is this…
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“…what a brilliant liberal idea: send ecards to the world’s tyrants and wish them Happy Birthday.”
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Back in the 1980s, the messiah, The Great Gipper used to send birthday cards to Manuel Noriega and Saddam Husein – in addition to Honsi Mubarek with multi-million dollar checks of taxpayer money inside.
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E-Cards are much cheaper.

@7.7,
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Okay, try this instead…
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Singing is not his forte either.
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Remember back in the old days of the Bush administration when the president left to the Attorney General to sing;
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http://video.yahoo.com/watch/164308/585417
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So, are you saying Holder should have had Eric Holder take over the singing part?

Cowboys are our heroes?

Wave the white flag Harry. The Cowboy Poetry Festival has been lost.

Not encouraging to see a key member of the Obama administration forced out for simply having a conscience and expressing the horror that we all feel about the treatment of Bradley Manning.
http://www.sunstateactivist.org

So I guess people will have to go to World War II draft dodger and Right Winger Marion Robert Morrison – AKA John Wayne – to look for cowboy stories.
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The far right signs with delight.

patricksartor
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I have to say I don’t understand what all the discussion is about regarding firing, resignation etc. When you disagree with an administration’s policy, you resign. This is especially true at State or Defense, where you are speaking or acting publicly for the United States. An example of this is Greg Craig.
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When you fundamentally disagree, and are willing to not just go quietly in protest, but publicly criticize the policy you disagree with (burning most of your bridges), and then you resign. Forcing the president to ask for your resignation ratchets your criticism up still further, and leaves you with smoldering embers where all your bridges used to be.
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As you say, good man. Obama owns this now, despite his trying to pass it off onto the military.

I’m bewildered. Righties are attacking Obama for the treatment of Manning when they’re outspoken that they want him to burn. They’re attacking Obama for getting rid of Crowley when they don’t care for the guy anyways. And in one turn attacks Obama for getting him fired (resign or whatever but I guess it’s important WHY), but then attack Liberals for defending Crowley eventhough there doesn’t seems to be any confusion why he got fired or resigned.

I just wonder what the point is? If righties here (ideologues not real conservatives) don’t care what happens to Manning, don’t care about Crowley and apparently would have fired Crowley for what he did and also treated Manning the way he’s treated now, why are they so up in arms about anything?

This couldn’t just be another pathetic attempt to attack Obama for something that righties support anyways had it been a different president (like a conservative) running the country?

Why would anyone be so intellectually inconsistent?

White House forces P.J. Crowley to resign for condemning abuse of Manning

video
https://sites.google.com/site/nownewnews4u/3mac/14-mac-2011

The truth of the matter is that Obama becomes increasingly harder to defend, and support, 2012 doesn’t look to be a good year for this voter.

“Nice work PJ! You prove my point for me. Sheen was fired for being an a$$hat while Crowley elected to resign. You’ve demonstrated zero proof that he was fired.”
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Why do liberals insist on lying to themselves. You are arguing over idiot semantics. He undoubtedly was told “have your letter of resignation on my desk by 5 or you will be fired”. Since there was no where for him to “cut & run” he “resigned”.

And you probably believe he resigned to spend more time with his family.

Don’t look now, but there is a fair amount of tribalism going on the left as well.
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But this seems to be a last straw for a lot of people. John Perry Barlow, for example:
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I think Obama finally lost me. Calls treatment of Bradley Manning "appropriate" and "meeting our basic standards.”—
John Perry Barlow (@JPBarlow) March 13, 2011

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But there have also been people who are staying with him, anyway. Despite what Ezra points out is the conflict between campaign Obama and administration Obama,
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http://wapo.st/gh4dox
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they are sticking with him.That would seem to me to represent a fair amount of cognitive dissonance….

What is your beef this time and does it have anything to do with Frank Luntz?
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Of course it does, paulie. Your whole schtick here is based on his methods of “framing” an argument.
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I especially love the way in which you reach deep into your rectal area, dig out a lump and present it as “fact” or “truth” until such time as the other side can “disprove” your pile of “truthiness”.
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THAT’s straight out of the Frank Luntz playbook. But, of course you know that already.
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That’s not the way the real world works. Truth has to be “affirmatively” provable, NOT just “negatively”. It’s NOT just a matter of who gets there first gets to claim it as their own. THAT is called “framing”.
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That’s why links are so important here. We can see what the source of your “wisdom” is, and not just have to accept your version as accurate simply because you SAY it is.
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It goes without saying, that your track record around here is more than a little “spotty”.

It’s a testament to just how corrupt and undemocratic our system is that,even now, a primary is unthinkable.

The most critical attacks are from the left. The attacks from the right at attacks on those lefties who are not trashing Obama as they would be if it happened under Bush. The right is already quite comfortable with Manning. He’ll never get out As far as the 23 hours in his cell that’s quite common for max security and in this case almost certainty done to protect him. Would you prefer he mingle among the general population where they dole out their own punishment to traitors? He’ll get a fair trial, not in civilian court, get life and spend the rest of his life as he is right now.

I personally think the treatment of Manning is bad. Put him on trial already. if we consider him a spy then treat him as such and convict him. It’s like the ‘enemy combatants’. Put them on trial already. We have far worse elements in our prison system. People that took apart someone with their teeth. I am not scared of some fundamentalist willing to die for Allah any more than I’m worried about some guy who ate his next door neighbor because he got hungry.
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Crowley knew his career was over even if I agree with what he says. It’s just plain common sense that you don’t disagree against the administrations policies and expect to keep your office. Regardless if I think he’s right or wrong.
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Obama is doubling down on Guantanamo and now Manning which is bad. He used to think that we should try the people behind 9/11 in New York until the right wet their pants and then decided to apparently let it be military trials instead.
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Come on, time for him to lead already. It’s not a centrist idea to stand for the strength of our judicial system. People would back him up. But trying to please the right scream machine makes him look weak. And ineffective. And right now we need to play to the strength of what makes America great and not the illusions scared righties think America is about while hiding under their desks.

They have no rights to a civilian trial and they’re not going to get one. They have no right to enter the USA and they’re not going to. Obama is playing a shell game poorly. He won’t give them any kind of a trial leaving KSM for the next President. Liberals should be furious. He had rebuked every single position he ran on regarding natioanals security and defense. He has supported every single policy of GWB now including Gitmo. His executive order to close Gitmo was never anything more than wallpaper.

New York until the right wet their pants

***************************************************

You can’t make an intellectual argument because you don’t have one. So the schoolyard taunt is expected but you can’t do any better than this?

How decisive is it that Chuck Schumer, as liberal as they come, tells Obama that NYC, as liberal a city as any, does not want to host any trials for KSM?

The fact Obama signed an executive order closing Gitmo is evidence of just how clueless he is. Much like his Israel policy which he has totally abandoned for the same reasons. The left is clueless.

Obama was always going to be harder to defend. You elected a blank piece of paper. He’s now getting defined by his actions. It as always going to be this way. Disappointed Liberals will still vote for him and Time will still be sucking up. The group you need to watch is independents. And right now they’re getting close to 40% support. Recently he’s been almost invisible and what few moved he’s made have been the wrong ones. Supporting the unions so tentatively displeased both sides and he’s moved the US off the world stage entirely. He was consistently wrong on Egypt and now on Libya looks shockingly weak and indecisive.

It’s not a centrist idea to stand for the strength of our judicial system
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Actually, I think the track record is showing that the centrist idea is citizens should just trust the government, and not worry about that constitution business. It’s nice when we can use the courts, but they are not really essential, and when there are pressing reasons to lock people up, niceties like charges and trials just have to give way to more important, national security concerns.
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Oh, and secrecy is essential to an governing effectively. The elites know what they are doing. Transparency leads to distracting elbow-joggling.
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(Joe Wilson and Marcy Wheeler on this principle in diplomacy on Sunday: http://bit.ly/fXq9Cm )
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Disclosure: I’m wearing my “Centrisim IS an ideology” tshirt today.

“You can’t make an intellectual argument because you don’t have one. So the schoolyard taunt is expected but you can’t do any better than this?

How decisive is it that Chuck Schumer, as liberal as they come, tells Obama that NYC, as liberal a city as any, does not want to host any trials for KSM?

The fact Obama signed an executive order closing Gitmo is evidence of just how clueless he is. Much like his Israel policy which he has totally abandoned for the same reasons. The left is clueless.”
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Sorry, but I’m not going to sit here all day debunking your BS.
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GOPs response to the New York trial is well documented including commenters here. Take it up with them instead. You’re a tool and not a very useful one either since your arguments are so easily deconstructed. The only thing you have going for you is the stubborn head in sand no information intake.
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Anyways – this administration changed their mind after righties started crying and wetting their pants about Gitmo and the New York trials. Something about how it would be a horrible target for another bombing and some Gulianno even talked about removing constitutional rights just to fit his pant wetting. And there are democrats that fell in that trap too.
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Anyways – prove me wrong but spare me the babble. You got nothing but your pathetic aversion to basic facts that I could link to you all day but would cause you to go spastic and double down on stupidity.
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Have fun.

off topic, for Patrick:

Americans continue to express less concern about global warming than they have in the past, with 51% saying they worry a great deal or fair amount about the problem — although attitudes appear to have stabilized compared with last year. That current level of worry compares with 66% just three years ago, and is only one percentage point higher than the low Gallup measured in 1997. ….

While Americans’ self-professed understanding of global warming has increased over time — from 69% saying they understand the issue “very well” or “fairly well” in 2001, to 74% in 2006 and 80% in the current poll — their concern about global warming across several measures is generally in the lower range of what Gallup has found historically

Something about how it would be a horrible target for another bombing

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It’s really just common sense. We’re drowning in deficits and debt and you want to spend $200M to try KSM in NYC? There’s no reason for it. We have a military system for these things that’s good enough for our solders and you want to make the point it’s not good enough for KSM?

You can’t. I think most Americans have a great deal of respect for our soldiers and the military system. To suggest that system is not good enough for KSM is offensive. It’s also illogical. While it might please the French few Americans care about that.

Sorry, we’re not going to waste a lot of money on KSM. We have a perfectly good and fair prison and system in Gitmo and we are going to keep it open.

Obama’s recent action on Gitmo had to be a real shock but you have had time to think about it unemotionally. Aren’t his actions strong evidence public opinion is staunchly against him? This is a man who had huge majorities in both houses yet didn’t even come close to his goal.

What does it take for you to realize you are not just on the losing side but you’ve been crushed? Are you one of these people upon finding out you are in a small minority decide the majority is just stupid and misinformed? If they are only as smart and well informed as, well, you, Gitmo would never have been opened.

Well, I guess sometimes it really sucks being smarter than everyone else.

It’s not a centrist idea to stand for the strength of our judicial system

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Could not agree more, Our military justice system is superb. If it’s good enough for our brave soldiers it’s good enough for KSM.

patrick, hippo,

your guy is having a bad week and he’s been fairly invisible. Note the 56% disapproval among independents is a real problem.

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The Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll for Monday shows that 23% of the nation’s voters Strongly Approve of the way that Barack Obama is performing his role as president. Forty-three percent (43%) Strongly Disapprove, giving Obama a Presidential Approval Index rating of -20. That matches the president’s lowest ratings of 2011

Overall, 44% of voters say they at least somewhat approve of the president’s performance. Fifty-six percent (56%) disapprove. The president earns approval from 77% of Democrats but disapproval from 89% of Republicans. Among those not affiliated with either major party, 44% approve and 56% disapprove.

Again with nothing usual to say freeper? Par for the course. If you had bothered to read the discussion before spouting off, I stated yesterday (@4.5) that the argument was mostly semantical. That’s how PJ framed it in his post (@1.0) and he was wrong. One cannot be forced to resign; one can be fired or one can quit. Crowley quit.

Care to trot out someone OTHER than Rasmussen, rdw, to prove the same point?
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That’s one’s developed a reputation of being rather GOP-tilted.

Correction, rdw – our military justice system CAN BE superb… as long as no one is trying to get it to do something it wasn’t designed for, in order to get the outcomes that they want.

rdw,
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Read the description of the exchange in the link below.
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He was asked if his comment was “on the record” and, after what was described as an “uncomfortable” pause, he replied “Sure”. The reporter admitted that, if he had said “no”, she would have dropped it.
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He KNEW he was on the record and was probably already thinking about the “professional” fallout to come.
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https://philippathomas.wordpress.com/2011/03/10/the-state-department-spokesman-and-the-prisoner-in-the-brig/

“What does it take for you to realize you are not just on the losing side but you’ve been crushed?”
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What side? Americas or your tribe?
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Let me know when reality smacks you.

Rasmussen is comsistenly among the top pollsters in part because they poll likely rather than registered voters.

Even if you trust them or not the daily presidential poll is straight forward, clear, unambigious and it’s the exact same question every day. I beleive the last Gallup poll was 45% or 46% approval. That’s within the margin of error.

My side is America’s side. Your side has been crushed on gitmo. There is absolutely no support for closing it down outside the whacky left.

Liberals should be furious. He had rebuked every single position he ran on regarding natioanals security and defense. He has supported every single policy of GWB now including Gitmo
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I can’t speak for anyone else, but I AM furious over obama’s moral cowardice and backpedalling over gitmo, detention, and the general continuation of bush-era policies. Unfortunately, whenever I look at the R field, I feel it’s just become a choice between tweedledum and tweedle-dumber.

I AM furious over obama’s moral cowardice and backpedalling

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I Obama’s case it is cowardice but not republicans. We think GWBs policies were correct, moral and smart. Obama is the guy who ran at the mouth in the Senate and then when he got the job did the opposite of his promises. That’s not all cowardice. The idea of trying KSM in NYC was opposed by huge majorities of Americans and was never a political possibility. That was just stupid.