What Wisconsin Has Wrought: Labor Unrest Spreads

On Tuesday afternoon, the 12 members of Ohio’s Senate Insurance, Commerce and Labor Committee convened in a corner room on the second floor of the state senate building in Columbus. No vote or amendment was on the agenda, just a hearing on what is simply called Senate Bill 5. Outside the door, hundreds of protesters pressed into the halls and stairwells of the capitol as thousands more crowded the surrounding streets. They all wanted to testify.

SB5, introduced by Republican state Senator Shannon Jones and backed by Governor John Kasich, would abolish collective bargaining rights for some 42,000 state workers and scale back those of roughly 300,000 local government employees in Ohio, including teachers, firefighters and police. It was those workers and allies of the unions that represent them that swarmed the statehouse Tuesday, chanting “This is our house, let us in.”

As demonstrations in Wisconsin over Governor Scott Walker’s efforts to limit collective bargaining for many state employees entered a second week and national media swarmed Madison, similar protests swelled in state capitals across the nation. Though the various pieces of legislation and their respective impacts on labor unions private and public differ, the conflicts all pit Republican governors or their statehouse allies against a labor movement clamoring to be heard and eager to hinder their GOP opponents.

Democratic legislators in Indiana, mirroring their Wisconsin counterparts’ desperation, fled the state and its police jurisdiction Tuesday in order to deny Republican lawmakers the quorum necessary to proceed on a “right to work” bill, legislation that would prevent employers and unions from signing contracts that require non-members to pay fees for representation. “There’s a line in the sand for us,” said Dan Parker, the chairman of Indiana’s Democratic Party. “When something so much violates your principles… you use your last resort.” (See update.)

Although Republican Governor Mitch Daniels supports the “right to work” philosophy, he has urged his party not to pursue the legislation since late last year. “I thought there was a better time and place to have this very important and legitimate issue raised,” Daniels, ever the pragmatist, told reporters Tuesday. His concerns are practical. While key legislative deadlines loom, his ambitious agenda has been grounded by the political weight of a single bill.

In Michigan, a few hundred picketers weathered the Lansing frost Tuesday to voice opposition to a small collection of proposals they see as a threat to unions. Newly elected Republican Governor Rick Snyder’s budget calls for pensions to be taxed and he backs empowering emergency financial managers, brought in when a school or city is foundering, to cut union contracts. But when asked if there were any parallels to Wisconsin, Snyder insisted he remains committed to bargaining with labor rather than forcing his position. “It’s not confrontational with the unions,” he said. “It’s about how we do collective bargaining to achieve a mutual outcome where we all benefit.”

Florida is already a “right to work state” and Republican state Senator John Thrasher has introduced legislation to politically declaw unions there. As in Wisconsin, his bill would bar labor groups from using salary deductions for candidate donations or electioneering. But Rick Scott, who might just be the most brazen Republican governor of the 2011 class — he sent back $2.4 billion in federal transportation funds last week and proposed to lay off 6,700 state workers in his first budget proposal — appears wary of a larger standoff with unions. “My belief is as long as people know what they’re doing, collective bargaining is fine,” he told Tallahassee’s WFLA Radio on Tuesday.

In Ohio, the power of the unions hasn’t given Governor Kasich pause. He is willing to weather confrontation. And Democratic legislators lack the numbers in the statehouse to delay action with a walkout. Republicans have an 8-4 majority on that Insurance, Commerce and Labor Committee, not to mention a 23-10 majority in the senate overall. SB5 is likely to face a full vote next week. “Procedurally there are very few options,” says Ohio Senate Minority Leader Capri Cafaro, already looking past the vote to a possible referendum on the issue. “If this passes and ultimately becomes law, we do have the ability to bring it to the ballot.”

In many ways, the intensity of these debates reflects a larger struggle for public opinion. Protest organizers in Ohio and Indiana are upset that, in their view, Republicans didn’t run on a platform of reining in labor, and that their legislation hasn’t yet received ample sunlight. Democrats ultimately lack the votes in their statehouses — and allies in the governor’s mansions — to defeat many of these bills. Labor’s hope is that by attracting attention and stymying Republican agendas, they can claim the mantle of popular support.

A recent Gallup poll that asked if Americans would “favor or oppose a law… taking away some collective bargaining rights of most public unions, including the state teachers union,” found that 61% said they would oppose it. But now is a difficult time for labor. American manufacturing is in decline, the recession has wreaked terrific damage on state budgets, which are often balanced only by deferring payments on massive pension liabilities, and it’s the first time in decades politicians of either party in the midwest and northeast are challenging union benefits and bargaining powers.

In Indiana, Parker calls this “assaulting middle class Hoosier workers.” Republican New Jersey Governor Chris Christie, who called for public employees to pony up a greater share of their health care premiums in his second budget address Tuesday in Trenton, frames it like this: “The promises of the past are too expensive, and the prospects of the future are too important to stay on the old, failed course.”

Madison may be the battlefront for that debate, but the skirmishes are spreading. AFL-CIO President Richard Trumka is scheduled to lead a rally Friday in Trenton. Jesse Jackson is on his way to Columbus. “We’re seeing thousands of people come here,” says Ohio’s Senator Cafaro. “It’s no different than other places, like Wisconsin.”

UPDATE, 1:51 p.m.:

At Daniels behest, Indiana Republicans have dropped their “right to work” bill.

Related Topics: labor, Uncategorized
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  • nflfoghorn

    What course, exactly, “failed” in Fat Fattie’s eyesight? States (including his) granted workers bargaining rights for decent wages and rights–now the unions are excoriated because they are somehow costing states money by wanting to keep the same wages and rights. I think this was neocons’ MO all along: they refuse to raise taxes and SWEAR they’ve cut to the bone. So their solution? Give the rich tax breaks and lay off the working class. Excellent. For them. :(

  • http://kingmaxhd.wordpress.com kingmaxhd

    This is just a part of the GOP’s ongoing efforts to further weaken and oppress working people everywhere. Fortunately, a big, powerful media spotlight is shining on Wisconsin awakening many people to Walker’s (and the GOP’s) overreach. Even if Walker ultimately prevails, a huge number of people who might not otherwise be motivated will be energized for 2012. They’ll join the ranks of others the GOP has worked so hard to antagonize – Latinos, gays and other minorities, for example – who are eager to engage with their GOP tormenters; not to mention many middle class whites who are sick of seeing their wages stagnate and benefits disappear as those at the top make out (literally) like bandits as the GOP does their bidding.

  • http://erieangel.wordpress.com erieangel

    Finally, people have woken to the fact that the GOP wants to take away what little power the average working has. It is a beautiful sight.

  • apr2563


    .
    Kasich shows his respect for the police.

  • apr2563

    This is Walker’s idea of shared sacrifice.

    http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2011/02/how-does-this-help-balance-wisconsins-budget.html
    .
    Non-bid contracts
    .

    16.896 Sale or contractual operation of state-owned heating, cooling, and power plants. (1) Notwithstanding ss. 13.48 (14) (am) and 16.705 (1), the department may sell any state-owned heating, cooling, and power plant or may contract with a private entity for the operation of any such plant, with or without solicitation of bids, for any amount that the department determines to be in the best interest of the state.
    .
    Give away tax breaks
    .
    And wouldn’t it be more fiscally conservative not to simultaneously add over $150 million by rescinding tax hikes on those couples earning over $300,000 or individuals earning $150,000 at the same time as asking for sacrifices from people earning a fraction of that?

  • apr2563

    http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2011/02/teacher-benefits-in-wisconsin-since-1993.html
    .

    I earlier referred to data showing an amazingly cushy period for the teachers’ unions in Wisconsin. It behooves me to add that this changed in 1993:

    As rising health insurance costs have eaten up most of the 3.8% total compensation target, teacher salaries in Wisconsin have stagnated and even declined. As a result, Wisconsin teacher salaries fell 6.8% from 1997-98 to 2007-08, when adjusted for inflation. For 2007-08, Wisconsin’s teacher salaries ranked 21th in the nation at $49,051, down from 20th the year before, and below the national average of $52,308.

  • liberalmeltdown

    Well, that’s great April. So, the teachers can still collective bargain for salaries after Walker’s bill is passed. Or, didn’t you know? No, you don’t know. You aren’t in WI. You don’t know because your propaganda network has not reported anything of truth or substance. You are so informed.

  • apr2563

    http://thinkprogress.org/2011/02/22/gop-governors-misplaced-priorities/
    .
    GOP Governors shift burden to poor, middle class to pay for tax breaks for rich corporations:
    .
    Arizona- Following months of national outcry and at least two deaths, Gov. Jan Brewer’s administration has finally relented on what many likened to real-life “death panels” that denied care to those in need of transplants in order to save the state just over a million dollars.
    Now, however, Governor Jan Brewer is proposing to kick some 280,000 Arizonans, mostly childless adults, off the state’s Medicaid rolls. Brewer also wants to save $79.8 million by dropping 5,200 “seriously mentally ill” people from the state’s Medicaid program.
    Brewer instead signed $538 million corporate tax cuts into law two weeks ago.
    .
    Florida- Gov. Rick Scott announced that he was canceling a proposed high-speed rail line between Orlando and Tampa — something that will cause Florida to forego $2 billion in federally-funded investments and cost the state at least 24,000 jobs. Scott’s move is opposed even by the Republican chairman of the U.S. House’s Transportation and Infrastructure Committee.. privatize large areas of state services, including juvenile justice facilities, Medicaid, and some hospitals. Education spending would be cut by more than $3 billion and teachers and other public employees would see their pensions under threat. Such deep cuts in essential programs and services are necessary to offset Scott’s proposal
    to cut corporate and property taxes by at least $4 billion.
    .
    Read more. It kind of twists the bibical call to help the poor. It is take from the least of us and give to the richest.
    Of course, we all remember how adept Scott was cheating Medicare and Medicaid in his prior profession.

  • boboberg

    This is part of a concerted nationwide attack by Republicans on workers’ bargaining rights, a direct attack on the middle class. The Republicans will not be happy until every worker is homeless and on food stamps. Fight the governor to the death. Mark Montgomery NYC, NY boboberg@nyc.rr.com

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    What’s ironic is that some of the other State’s proposals are relatively reasonable when compared to Wisconsin’s but by having drawn blood, Walker has managed to eff it up for the other governors.

  • gysgt213

    I guess most people just do not want to talk about how WI like so many other states find themselves in such serious budget trouble to begin with.
    .
    Out of control health care cost, shrinking tax bases, high unemployment and a $8 trillion housing bubble collapse that would wrecked even the strongest economy and finally policies that encourage companies to create jobs every where but in a American city or state.

  • http://any6.wordpress.com post3153

    Seems like so many of you liberals crying ohhh they want to cut this and cut that which hurts the poor etc etc.

    Have you ever thought that maybe the democrats promised too much to too many people and we are spending the month of many generations into the future?

    We do not have the right to do that, we should spend our own money. If the poor and the middle class have to tighten their belts that is the way it should be instead of holding their hands out to the government.

    It is of no surprise that the country is going down hill. The democrats have trained the people to depend on them so they can continue to get their votes.

  • http://any6.wordpress.com post3153

    The problem with so many blogs is that they are full of lies either because people are frustrated or they are stupid. I can not tell one from the other…

    Many like to blame one party or the other but the truth is neither party is perfect. The democrats have controlled congress for most of the last 60 years. This is where the laws are made and the money is appropriated.

    How can anyone take that fact and blame only the Republicans for where we are today?

    Bush did not cause the housing bubble…Clinton did and the democrat named Barney Franks.

    Bush was not a good president but he was not nearly as bad as many bloggers would have him. In my opinion Obama is much worse, even if he is better educated.

  • freeinpa

    “Bush did not cause the housing bubble…Clinton did”
    .
    With the help of his able HUD Secretary Cuomo

  • freeinpa

    What seems to be lost in the incessant whining of the left is that the Progressive god Roosevelt himself believed quite strongly that public workers should not belong to a union.

    The rate at which we in this country has spent on education over the past 30 years and the accompanying result that we have received leads to an unarguable conclusion that the education system is broken. Every attempt to fix has been met with the same 2 responses;1) it’s not the teachers fault 2) spend more money.
    .
    Taxpayers have run out of patience and money for a group who continually takes the taxpayer for granted. Has it gone too far? Maybe, but the pendulum has swung the other way and for those union officials who did not see it coming are either arrogant or ignorant who believed that by being a wholly-owned subsidiary of the Democratic Party would save them.

  • ricardo4max

    It’s about time the public employees unions are dissolved. Even FDR was not a fan of these unions.
    So Democrats have destroyed the economy and the housing market and made things far far worse over the last 4 years, with the help of the Ayatollah Obama. They have attacked free enterprise capitalism and the American way of life in order to remake America into some Marxist “progressive” utopia. Well it is working and it will never work. So the people elected the other side, the other point of view, the other philosophy and they have begun to fix the problems, as painful as the fix may be. And the spoiled brats thugs and Marxists (aka progressives) are squealing like stuck pigs. I say that it’s time to put in the ear plugs, get out knife and start cutting the budgets and dissolving the unions, Full Speed Ahead. Funny how the left is always whining about “fairness” until it affects them negatively.

  • freeinpa

    “Now, however, Governor Jan Brewer is proposing to kick some 280,000 Arizonans, mostly childless adults, off the state’s Medicaid rolls. Brewer also wants to save $79.8 million by dropping 5,200 “seriously mentally ill” people from the state’s Medicaid program.”
    .
    Caused by another unfunded mandate by an overbearing federal government. Once again the left is quite free in spending everybody else;’s money. But if course, “it’s for the children”

  • ricardo4max

    Obvious typo: should read “Well it is isn’t working….

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    That would be a great theory except for the fact that the USA Today poll indicates that 60 percent of Americans think you’re mistaken. The Republicans rode a wave of anti-incumbency because there are no jobs. Their prescription for no jobs is throwing tens of thousands of more folks out of work. In the meantime. the record shows that the private sector remains profoundly uniterested in new hires but we’re told that less taxes will fix that right up. Except that we know it’s a lie because we just finished trying it.

  • freeinpa

    See now the other states proposals look reasonable! If WI would have dome a similar proposal, rest assured the left would have howled just as loudly. For the left spending never goes down, there is always somebody to tax to support a failing system.

  • ricardo4max

    For a great article on how the Clinton administration caused the housing bubble the resultant devastating crash, read Dennis Sewell of the BBC in the Oct 2008 UK Spectator.

  • freeinpa

    “The Republicans rode a wave of anti-incumbency because there are no jobs. Their prescription for no jobs is throwing tens of thousands of more folks out of work”
    .
    Repeating lies doesn’t make them true. They are cutting budgets and the left is whining that their precious “entitlements” (That in reality is what public unions are) are being asked to give over burdened tax payers a break.
    .
    The prescription for the left is always spend more money– Hold people accountable for that money–NEVER!

  • ricardo4max

    Well Paul here are the lies you tell.
    a) No matter what poll you choose to quote or how biased it is, one must ask “Why were so many Democrats THROWN OUT OF OFFICE in November and so many Republicans elected nationwide? Your left wing rhetoric doesn’t match reality.
    b) We just finished trying what? Lowering taxes? Of course we did NOT LOWER TAXES. We simply fought the Democrats like the dickens to get the 2003 tax cuts extended thereby preventing the Democrats from RAISING taxes. Th e2003 tax cuts had a profoundly POSITIVE effect some a few years after they were enacted.
    The damage and destruction done to America and our economy by Ayatollah Obama and the Democrats is deep and wide and tax cuts now are only part of the solution. American businesses need to see a favorable govt in Washington. One that isn’t out to get them with high taxes and burdensome regulations. It’s really that simple Paul.

  • freeinpa

    Just spend more money, that’s the answer–except it doesn’t and all you get is excuses.

    “At the end of 2009 Obama backed union bosses when his Department of Labor ruled that they did not have to file a financial disclosure form documenting where billions in union dues ended up. In 2010 he proposed eliminating the need for disclosure permanently. In lieu of NAEP’s latest report on reading levels, it could safely be assumed the monies did not go to teacher education or closing the student achievement gap”
    .
    While Obama aids and abets failure!

    In the National Assessment of Educational Progress tests administered by the U.S. Department of Education in 2009-the latest year available-only 32 percent of Wisconsin public-school eighth graders earned a “proficient” rating while another 2 percent earned an “advanced” rating. The other 66 percent of Wisconsin public-school eighth graders earned ratings below “proficient,” including 44 percent who earned a rating of “basic” and 22 percent who earned a rating of “below basic.”

    The test also showed that the reading abilities of Wisconsin public-school eighth graders had not improved at all between 1998 and 2009 despite a significant inflation-adjusted increase in the amount of money Wisconsin public schools spent per pupil each year.

    In fiscal year 2008 the federal government provided over $660 million to the state of Wisconsin in public school subsidies.

    http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2011/02/wisconsin_students_scored_sham.html

  • ricardo4max

    Actually the attack on the middle class has already come from the Ayatollah Obama and the Democrats. We are now attacking the fat overpaid free benefit receiving privileged unions.

  • ricardo4max

    What about the non working middle classpeople that the Dems and the Ayatollah Obama have already caused to lose their jobs and / or take serious pay cuts?
    The revolution is here and you neocommies are getting just what you deserve.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    entitlements?

    Now your just riffing. Entitlement has a very specific meaning. Social Security is an entitlement because the money due retirees is owed to them based on the money they PAID. It has nothing to do with collective bargaining. Collective bargaining on the other hand is NOT why the economy sucks. Union membership is at a historic low point. Attacking Unions is doing nothing but taking advantage of Americans discontent and scapegoating folks who have absolutely nothing to do with the problem. You don’t have to be a fan of Unions to see that the Republicans are attacking the wrong problem.

  • ricardo4max

    April sweetie punishing the wealthy and productive just causes them to flee to another state or country. look at NY and CA. Are you leftists really that stupid?

  • freeinpa

    When you hand out ever increasing tax payer money to people who short of murder convictions in most instances and are held to no job performance standards – it is an entitlement!
    .
    You can put as much lipstick on that pig as you like- but its still a pig.
    .
    There was a union worker in OH being interviewed who said, “getting rid of collective bargain will destroy our life”
    .
    That’s French for we are screwed if somebody holds us accountable.

  • ricardo4max

    How do we know when Paul D is lying? His lips are moving.
    Seriously though, privet union membership is low. That is because they have ruined or caused many American businesses to move overseas.
    Public employee union membership is growing at an alarming rate and this needs to be nipped in the bud ASAP.
    As for having nothing to do with the problem, again completely untrue. Privately employed citizens do not get paid with taxpayer dollars. They do not hold the citizens and gov t. hostage for more benefits higher wages etc…
    Republicans are doing EXACTLY what they were elected to do and this makes you anti-American leftists twisted and angry. You were greedy and selfish and now we are telling you give back the toys and grow up.

  • ricardo4max

    Sorry for the typos. Post 14.6 should read ..”private”

  • freeinpa

    “Attacking Unions is doing nothing but taking advantage of Americans discontent and scapegoating folks who have absolutely nothing to do with the problem”

    Unadulterated crap. Yes we have spent trillions and still under performance but its not the teachers. We can get crappy performance for less pay. And saying they are not part of the problem is more crap. The states underfunding of pension is around trillion$$$. They fight changes to tenure, they fight performance standards always for more money.

    Private and parochial schools pay a fraction for better results and no where near the grief.
    .
    “Social Security is an entitlement because the money due retirees is owed to them based on the money they PAID.”
    .
    Except its not a retirement plan but a safety net or at least that was the lie of the day everyone got to pass it. Owed them? They will receive multiples of what they paid in and that will cripple future generations which you ignore

  • afguy

    D*mn! Not Thursday yet…

  • freeinpa

    Wow nothing seems to rile the left as much as being held accountable for bilking money from the taxpayer.

    All the excuses as to why nothing should change— all except they have done a good job. Because that would be a lie

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Private schools naturally do better due to self-selection. People who choose Private schools are more interested in education as a matter of course. Education begins at home and as it happens, people whining about how ‘overpriveleged’ teachers are is a much bigger indication of where the problem lies than anything the teachers themselves can do to add or detract.

  • freeinpa

    So knowing that not all students are created equal why do we continue to deny parents the ability to get vouchers and focus the money where the probability of a good outcome is high. The argument that it takes away fro our public school system is another canard. Pouring more money into it has not helped but it has certainly hurt some students. So let’s face it the current educational system is not about the children but the teachers union that our tax dollars support. The countries with high results demand high performance from those students. They push the averages upward while we descend to the lowest common denominator.

  • bobell

    Freep — Do you realize what you just said? People will die if they’re thrown off Medicaid. The “seriously mentally ill” are, by definition, incapable of taking care of themselves. Or maybe they’ll live some sort of twilight existence. In Arizona, people have died because the state denied them transplants. Yoor reaction: “Once again the left is quite free in spending everybody else;’s money. But if course, ‘it’s for the children.’”
    .
    I dunno about you, but if I had a choice to make between letting people die and forgoing tax cuts for the wealthy, the wealthy wouldn’t get their tax cuts. And as for the myth that high taxes drive people away, reflect that we’re talking not about increases in most cases of state taxation but of cuts forgone. They’ll continue to be taxed at the level they’re already taxed at; that hasn’t yet driven them away, so why should it to so now? And, of course, federal income taxation is several times state income taxation, particularly when FICA and Medicare are thrown in. To escape that, you have to leave the country. Where do all those overtaxed Arizonans go — Mexico?
    .
    Yes, this is an era of limited resources. Do we devote them to keeping people alive and healthy, or do we devote them to letting the rich become richer? It looks to me that you’d like the rich to become richer — and please don’t start with that nonsense about freeing the wealthy to create more jobs; that’s fiction.
    .
    I’ve often thought you misguided, but this is the first time I’ve ever been tempted to call you evil. Please tell me I’m wrong.

  • ramitxc

    As a Floridian, I like the cut of this Thrasher guy’s jib with that union bill. These gov’t unions have abused their power and left us with the bill for years. We taxpayers need to step up and defend our rights too, and it’s about time our representatives stood with us for a change.

  • freeinpa

    “Freep — Do you realize what you just said? People will die if they’re thrown off Medicaid”
    .

    First people die. Second states would not be in the current shape with medicaid if the federal government did not force mandates on them. There is a simple concept the left never considers. With all these entitlements there is a point when combined with the other spending overwhelms the system. And in case you haven’t learned yet “tax the wealthy and corporations” leads to less revenues not more. They will find ways to legally avoid the additional taxes.
    .
    “And, of course, federal income taxation is several times state income taxation, particularly when FICA and Medicare are thrown in. To escape that, you have to leave the country. Where do all those overtaxed Arizonans go — Mexico?”
    .
    So the answer is to tax them at 100% of income so that the left can continue to spend uncontrollably. And in case you haven’t looked, there are states with income taxes. This idea that the wealthy are an ATM for every spending program (always for noble causes) is why spending is out of control.

  • cynicalprogressive

    Wow, so much union power in FL. Are you stupid? Will teabaggers like you rest until the Koch brothers destroy what’s left of the middle class?

  • shepherdwong

    Interesting. Several commentors have pointed out that this is obviously a campaign against working people everywhere, part of a class war being waged by Republicans on behalf of corporations. I guess you could sum that up as “a difficult time for labor” but that seems…understated.

  • ramitxc

    Actually, we won’t rest until government gets back to the basics and stops blowing through our money. Gov’t unions have tanked our state budgets, and I’m glad guys like Thrasher and Walker and Kasich have the guts to call them out on that.

  • hippooath

    The funny thing is that the wingers on this site says that this is NOT union busting but they advocate for union busting in ever single following post. It’s like a massive thought and logic fail.

  • carotexas1

    Adam, I was surprised to hear that a Republican govenernor wants to tax something, What pension funds does he want to tax? All of them? Do you have any information on what pensions Governeor Rick Snyder wants to tax.

  • shepherdwong

    Certainly, a good journalist would ask Walker if he’s applying the same benefit cuts to himself and his politically-supportive union pals and, if not, why not. I mean, if Walker was a Democrat.

  • megatronrises

    Please explain:
    .
    1. What jobs the Obama & Dems caused people to lose?
    2. How is Obama Muslim?
    3. How are Dems commies in disguise?
    4. Why you’re psycho.

  • megatronrises

    Explain:
    .
    1. How are taxes punishment?
    2. Why is it more productive to punish the working class?

  • megatronrises

    Except they can’t bargain for salaries increases higher than the inflation rate. That means their salaries will either stagnate or actually drop in terms of real money. How is that bargaining? As if we need good teachers to have more reason to leave the profession.

  • http://erieangel.wordpress.com erieangel

    ricardo, two points:
    .
    1. NY and CA? You really want to hold up as examples of wealthy people moving away to escape taxes these two states? Wealth is concentrated in those states.
    .
    2. Just because somebody is wealthy doesn’t mean they are productive. Many of the wealthiest people in this country don’t even have an office. They just “grow” money through all of their investments.
    .
    Ok third point. You’re an idiot. I know that’s not very civil of me but you make it so easy.

  • bobell

    “First[,] people die.” (I inserted the comma you forgot.) That’s your answer? Sh!t happens? You are a callous fellow, Freep. Would your answer be different if YOU were the one who needed $100,000 in cancer treatment and had no job, an underwater residence, just about no asets (from living jobless for a year or more), and of course no health insurance? “Sure sorry for ya, Freep, but you have to die for the good of the Koch brothers.” I’m not a Christian, but I suspect that you are. WWJD?

    (Or could it be possible that you are making the trivial point that everyone dies sooner or later — Elijah the Prophet and Enoch aside? The issue is not whether — it’s when and how. I didn’t think I had to be explicit about that, particularly since we were discussing the availability — or not — of health care.)
    .
    And stop straw-manning me. I never said to tax anyone 100 percent. Getting rid of the Bush tax cuts (or, if you prefer this version, raising taxes by an amount equal to the Bush tax cuts) would increase income taxes on the wealthy by at most about two percent (not two percentage points, two percent), and I think that’s a high estimate. Also, I never said no states had income taxes. What I said was that state income taxes are much lower than federal, so the likelihood that someone would flee a state because of an increase in state income taxes is low.
    .
    Here I was hoping that I had misunderstood you (for the good of your own soul, of course), and you proceeded to misunderstand me. This is no way to carry on an intelligent conversation.

  • Adam Sorensen

    Federal and state public pensions are totally tax exempt in the state of Michigan. Snyder is proposing to end that exemption. You can read about Michigan’s pension tax code here:

    http://www.michigan.gov/taxes/0,1607,7-238-43513_44135-156348–,00.html

  • carotexas1

    Thank you for replying Adam and for the link.

  • rdw56

    wow,

    michigan isn’t losing enough people to other states? They want to chase seniors to Arizona or Texas or Florida?

  • rdw56

    It’s less about union busting and more about raw partisan politics. In aligning so closely with democrats and funding them so lavishly the unions effectively declared war on the GOP. Well, if that’s how it’s going to be then we are required to defend our positions by weakening liberal support. The end of automatic union dues deductions would cut union collections by 30% to 40% and thus their campaign contributions and ability to otherwise support liberal campaigns.

    You didn’t see this coming? Really?

  • bobcn1
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