In the Arena

More Hemlock

In a response to my earlier post about the fundamental problem with public employees unions, Alex Altman writes:

Yes, it’s way too hard to fire bad teachers. But we smear good ones with the same brush. In his State of the Union last month, President Obama noted that teachers are known as “nation-builders” in Korea. “Here in America, it’s time we treated the people who educate our children with the same level of respect,” he said. If you take a stroll around Internet comment boards (not just this one, though it’s certainly the case here), it’s clear that many people consider them lazy, overpaid parasites instead. The U.S. lags behind many of its competitors in student achievement, and this attitude is one reason why we’ll stay there.

But the problem isn’t only the inability to fire bad teachers–and not just bad teachers, but even those who’ve been caught commiting crimes and hitting on students. The problem is that we are unable to reward good teachers.

The teachers unions have traditionally blocked that. And there are a myriad of other educational difficulties that result from the fact that the union bosses say they want to see teachers treated as professionals, but create systems of work rules that treat teachers like steelworkers. A good example is taking place in New York City right now, which, like many municipalities, is facing the harsh reality of teacher layoffs: the union insists they be laid off by seniority–last hired, first fired. This will remove from city classrooms some young, energetic inspirational teachers and retain others who are burned out and hanging on to make their pension. (Of course, not all young teachers are good and not all older teachers are bad–but school managers should be able to select their workforce just as magazine editors do, according to ability–especially if we’re allegedly dealing with professionals here).

From Franklin Roosevelt on, progressive politicians have worried about the impact of giving public employees the right to organize. There is a reason for that. The public sector is different from the private sector. When General Motors negotiates with its workers to change its pension and health care benefits system, the United Auto Workers knows that unless it sits down at the table and negotiates for real, the company could easily close shop. When the teachers union sits down with Mayor Bloomberg or Governor Walker or any other elected official, they have an unfair piece of leverage, a built-in structural dysfunction–they know that the Governor can’t shut down the schools. “There’s no reason for them to negotiate in good faith,” former New York City Schools Chancellor Joel Klein told me this morning.

And there is a second, corrupting factor: the UAW* can’t vote or campaign for new management. The Teachers Unions can and do. Far too often, new contracts have been acts of collusion rather than negotiation–with the unions wielding the extremely powerful sledgehammer of campaign contributions and eager bodies to staff phone banks, leaflet and go door to door. Essentially, public sector unions have the ability to sit on both sides of the table–their managers are their employees: another profound structural dysfunction. In some larger cities, public employees make up a disproportionate percentage of all voters, an estimated 20% in New York (and, believe me, teachers are among the most assiduous of voters). It is no wonder that politicians of both parties in union states have gifted these unions egregious benefits, especially in areas–like work rules–that don’t show up in the budget.

As I said in my earlier post, a great many public employees are severely underpaid–this is especially true at the federal level, where the scientists testing drugs at the Food and Drug Administration or the bank regulators at the SEC could probably double their salaries by sliding into the private sector. But it’s also true at the bottom of the wage scale, for the school bus drivers and home health care workers. The only rationale for public employees unions to exist is to create wage floors for such workers. But the public unions have set about, largely unimpeded, to build walls (work rules) that constrict government innovation and ceilings (opposition to merit pay) that make it less likely that the most talented professionals will remain in public service. That is the fundamental problem of governance we’re facing as we attempt to compete in a global economy. This is not merely a budget problem–it may not be much of a budget problem at all in Wisconsin. Even if there were state surpluses across this great land, the stultifying effects of public employees unions, especially the teachers, would be a serious national conundrum to be dealt with. (As for the budget issue, as I said in an earlier post, I”m in favor of higher salaries for public employees–especially those who merit them–and also in favor of higher taxes to pay for them.)

But Alex, if you want a society where teachers are respected, you have to empower them with the same freedoms and responsibilities that real professionals have. You can’t treat them like assembly-line workers.

*Actually, as reader Freeinpa points out, this isn’t a good example because, under the terms of the government reorganization, the UAW bought a percentage of GM stock. That’s a very rare exception–very few unions have significant ownership states in their companies–but even there, the possibility that GM could fail, tossing every UAW member out of work, tempers the union’s ability to make demands.

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  • http://www.stevebeste.com Steve Beste

    Joe – - Please chime in on the contracts that allow full pensions and retirement for 20 years of service for police officers and firefighters. Should taxpayers be paying for retirement in their 40′s?

  • freeinpa

    “But the problem isn’t only the inability to fire bad teachers–and not just bad teachers, but even those who’ve been caught commiting crimes and hitting on students. The problem is that we are unable to reward good ones”
    .
    Earth to Alex–All of this is due the battle to the death resistance by unions to set any standards or have performance impact any compensation.

  • Joe Klein

    Steve–You’re right, There needs to be some sort of adjustment there. The problem is that police officers should be young and fit–there are studies that show a disproportionate of police shootings occur when older officers can’t keep up with fleeing young suspects. So, what to do? Create a system where police officers and fire fighters are given other public employment options when they’re no longer physically fit to serve: they can be anything from teachers to sanitation workers. But they should have to serve longer if they want full pensions.

  • freeinpa

    JK:
    “And there is a second, corrupting factor: the UAW can’t vote”
    .

    Doesn’t the UAW own common shares in GM? It is not my understanding that they are non-voting. Not voting the common shares for Board of Directors and resolutions would be a major breach of fiduciary duty and subject them to suits

  • afguy

    Merit-based pay looks great – on paper.
    .
    Too often, though, those responsible for selecting the recipients have already figured out WHO they think is deserving… and work backward from there.
    .
    Then, the documentation is prepared to reflect a properly-running process that came to that conclusion.
    .
    We are simply unable or unwiling to conduct an objective process and longer (of pretty much any kind). Witness Washington. Laws exist, not for the common good, but to be constructed, worded, and ENFORCED to our personal benefit, and of our allies.
    .
    Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
    .
    Given the power to reward a mediocre friend or a hard-working “enemy”, we go with the friend. Especially if there is a good chance that no one will audit to find out how the whole process actually functioned.

  • freeinpa

    “other public employment options when they’re no longer physically fit to serve: they can be anything from teachers to sanitation workers”
    .
    That only compounds the problem. First it is very unlikely they become sanitation workers. It is more likely they gravitate to a position of equal or higher pay which then stresses the pension system further. I am not sure how many retire outright but I imagine it is not a large percent.
    .
    The only way that works is that if they continue to work the pension payout is capped at some level. Or if they do become double dippers, the payout is severely discounted until they reach normal retirement age.

  • afguy

    Should read: We are simply unable or unwiling to conduct an objective process (of pretty much any kind) and no longer construct legistation for the complete good of the country as a goal.

  • freeinpa

    “Too often, though, those responsible for selecting the recipients have already figured out WHO they think is deserving… and work backward from there.”
    .
    This is a weak argument at best. This process goes on everyday in the private sector. Why should teachers be exempt from that?

  • afguy

    Why should teachers be exempt from that?
    .
    They aren’t, free. I just described a “real-world” educational example from experience.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    So a teacher whose my age should be forced into retirment to make room for one willing to work for half the price. 55-65 is a perfect time to be out of work!
    .
    Brilliant.

  • freeinpa

    Yes but you are complaining it doesn’t work. So either offer a solution or quit whining about it. Every decision regarding human capital is subject to this. And the “real world” examples” in education right now are limited at best.

  • http://www.stevebeste.com Steve Beste

    Joe- You are right

    @freeinpa Look around New York City and South Florida if you want to see people who were cops and firefighters collecting their full pensions working full-time.

  • diecash1

    That’s a relatively common practice in the private sector. Look no further than Ford and all the other companies that have been sued for age discrimination in recent years. Younger and cheaper is the preferred method used by HR throughout the private sector, experience be damned.

  • freeinpa

    More whining Paul? Who wrote they should be forced to retire? And in case you haven’t notice every private worker and every company in this country faces that risk everyday in this global economy. You adapt, improve and work hard. The pones with relative immunity to this are public sector unions who regardless of their performance just demand more tax dollars.

  • diecash1

    Look around New York City and South Florida if you want to see people who were cops and firefighters collecting their full pensions working full-time.

    As long as they are not working in another public sector job while collecting their public pension (double-dipping), what’s the problem? It’s well within the rules to do so. If you have a problem with it, change the rules.

  • afguy

    Yeah, I can see that working really well.
    .
    Fill the teachers’ ranks with those who couldn’t make it in their chosen field JUST to retain their benefits. I see that really raising our educational standards and instilling motivation among faculty. I take it you believe that love of the benefits is why they selected that field in the first place?
    .
    That comment alone tells me you have little respect for teachers as a profession.
    .
    What did a teacher do to you, Joe? We’d REALLY like to know…

  • 53_3

    Joe:
    .
    It’s not like you are unbiased or anything, because you have never demonstrated any appreciaton whatsoever for labor, or it’s movements.
    .
    I’m not a demagogue, so I’m not going to try to paint labor’s leaders as saints. There is corruption everywhere, including the GOP.
    .
    Do we now legislate laws to disband the GOP? By your standards, maybe we should, instead of cleaning up the corruption.
    .
    I’m not in favor of that, and I’m not in favor of legislating collective bargaining out of existence.
    .
    You have again glossed over the issue of trust and have turned a blind eye to the demonization of the labor movement.
    .
    You’ve been pretty good about speaking out against such tactics lately, and I commend you for that, but at what point do you allow your cherished anti-union sentiments obscure this fact?

  • allthingsinaname

    “But the problem isn’t only the inability to fire bad teachers–and not just bad teachers, but even those who’ve been caught commiting crimes and hitting on students.”
    .
    BS Joe! There are how many teachers? Millions? And you site teachers hitting on students? How many hitting on students? You condemn the whole lot. They are hitting on students in the private sector, home taught students, Private school students, The list goes on.
    .
    Maybe we should just fire everyone we all must be hitting on our children.
    .
    Where is your proof that we haven’t fired those that have been caught hitting on students?
    .
    Your hyperbole is sicking.

  • allthingsinaname

    How about life time benefits for 2 years of “Service” as a Congressperson.
    .
    Its probably a lot harder to teach our children.

  • afguy

    Well, free, I’d say that any merit-based awards program needs to be overseen and administered by someone who does NOT have a vested interested in the outcome.
    .
    To be fair to the candidates, not just for the benefit of the judges and their relatives/cronies.
    .
    The problem exists in the private sector, too – anywhere there is insufficient transparency of process.
    .
    That enough of a suggestion for you?
    .
    “Whining” and “complaining” seem to be your descriptives of the day.

  • 53_3

    A sharp elbow in your side, Joe:
    .
    The demonstrators said they were frustrated with the constant demonization and relentless attacks by the GOP.
    .
    Didn’t you receive that message, Hosni, or did you cover your ears and pretend they didn’t say it?

  • afguy

    My wife and I were discussing the staff and faculty in the area who have been terminated for inappropriate contact with a student.
    .
    Contrary to your beliefs, Joe, THAT is one thing people do NOT stand for and have been most quick to correct when it has been identified. Offenders are placed on leave without pay then terminated very quickly for cause, after a proper hearing. And it’s published in the paper. None of just leaving quietly by the side door.
    .
    You’re grasping at straws, Joe, a LOT.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    And in case you haven’t notice every private worker and every company in this country faces that risk everyday in this global economy

    Which is precisely why age-discrimination is proscribed by Federal law and why Unions go out of their way to defend seniority rights. An unfettered market is not a panacea. It’s failings are precisely why worker protections evolved.

  • http://sinisterbutterfly.wordpress.com/ jwbates

    …The problem is that we are unable to reward good teachers…

    I keep seeing it asserted that teachers and teachers’ unions are the real root of all our public education problem, and I keep seeing anecdote after anecdote asserting that.

    So last night, I thought about it a little: if the unions are the problem, wouldn’t we see better education going on in the states where collective bargaining with teachers is not allowed?

    I took a quick stab at grabbing some data, looking at 2009 NAEP results for 8th graders, and I’ve got to say, the data doesn’t support your argument, Joe. Reading scores, for example, have a mean of 260.6 in states which restrict collective bargaining, compared with 264.0 for states which don’t. (Overall mean is 262.3). Math fares better, with a mean score of 283.0 for both types. The variance of the restricted states is much less, of course, and the highest scorer is Texas at #18. The best scoring states, Massachusetts and Minnesota, rank at 12 and 8 points greater mean than Texas.

    What does the data show? It shows that the bargaining power of the teacher’s unions has almost *no* explanatory power in the problem of public education performance.

    I can poke at the data more.

  • 53_3

    We have had summary dismissals here in Washington for the very same thing.
    .
    I’ve been pretty supportive of Joe and his opinions on quite a range of subjects, even to the point of being out of step with other Swampcritters.
    .
    But he has one glaring flaw:
    .
    He has never liked labor – except when it’s cheap…

  • 53_3

    Can you post any links?
    .
    I think there are a lot of Swampcritters that would really like to see this.

  • freeinpa

    “Fill the teachers’ ranks with those who couldn’t make it in their chosen field JUST to retain their benefit”
    .
    Afguy you may have a point however if you look at the results we have had using “certified” teachers, they difference may be unnoticeable.
    .
    “How about life time benefits for 2 years of “Service” as a Congressperson.”
    .
    I would support a Swatch and a train ticket at “retirement”. If we cut the slaary and benfits of these folks it would be a 2 pronged benefit. They leave sooner and we save money.
    .
    “As long as they are not working in another public sector job while collecting their public pension (double-dipping), what’s the problem?”
    .
    Actuarially we have the same problem of someone collecting benefits for 40-50 years. Retirement systems went not built for that nor are they sustainable.

  • Paul-no not that one

    So, in short, Joe is for busting unions. At least you have dropped any cover of it being for fiscal reasons.
    .
    A repost from below. Two years ago Walker illegally went after union jobs-
    .
    This is not the first time Walker has used the budget as an excuse to take a shot at the Union. When he was the Milwaukee county exec in 2009 he tried to privatize security at the courthouse. The County Board rejected the proposal so in 2010 he declared a budget emergency and privatized them anyway. In the investigation that followed it was found that
    .
    1. there was no budget emergency
    .
    2. Walker broke the union contract by not allowing any time for the union to make a counter offer.
    .
    3. Walker said it would save the county $125k when in fact he overstated the savings by $53k. In arbitration the county was told they had to pay the laid off security guards all the back pay for the duration they were laid off and had to guarantee them employment for 180 days which is the time they should have had to respond to Walker’s proposal.
    .
    The full details can be found in this article:
    .
    http://www.allbusiness.com/government/government-bodies-offices-regional-local/15435944-1.html
    .
    The above is from the comment section at Washington Monthly.
    .
    http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2011_02/028071.php

  • freeinpa

    “overseen and administered by someone who does NOT have a vested interested in the outcome.”
    .
    And in what world does this occur? You spout generalities of someone without bias and not have a vested interest in teh outcome. The only problem is in any management structure, the people most familiar with the workers have an interest in outcome. This mythical non-interested person has no idea of the day to day work.

    And yes whining is the word of the day. Anytime the main argument is “fairness” it is just the left whining they can’t get away with re-distributing money without accountability or responsibility or because somebody somewhere has something somebody else doesn’t have.

  • http://sinisterbutterfly.wordpress.com/ jwbates

    I pulled the data from the NAEP state comparisons, here. Initially I did the comparison based on which states had “right to work” laws, but TPM just posted a map this morning indicating which states allowed collective bargaining with public sector employees.
    .
    My data is still just a spreadsheet.

  • garylk

    I guess the only real solution to the problem is to treat it the way the private sector does; outsource it to cheaper labor. Since the anti-teachers union crowd wants to apply private sector techniques to labor cost management, why not fully embrace the private sector methods of cost control? A cheap teacher in India with a computer terminal in a US classroom would save a school system tons of money and earn the administrators a hefty bonus. It may not provide the best outcome, but it’s cheap. Every day we accept the lower quality of cheap outsouced labor in our consumer goods, so accepting cheap, lower quality education shouldn’t require much of an adjustment.

  • newfreedomblog

    Another good article Joe. Kudos to you yet again.
    .
    Even the Wall Street Journal has a citation up for your original article.
    .
    http://onespot.wsj.com/politics/2011/02/19/0cec9/wisconsins-hemlock-revolution
    .

    When the teachers union sits down with Mayor Bloomberg or Governor Walker or any other elected official, they have an unfair piece of leverage, a built-in structural dysfunction–they know that the Governor can’t shut down the schools. “There’s no reason for them to negotiate in good faith,” former New York City Schools Chancellor Joel Klein told me this morning”.

    .
    It goes even beyond that Joe. Government workers and Teachers not only have the upper hand against not the Government, but the tax payers. With their ability to organize, collectively, they can shut down vital and essential services at a blink of an eye. Most recently, look at the Sanitation workers non-recognized strike in NYC during the most recent major snow storm. While there was not an “official” strike called for, they continued to use their “united” numbers to drastically reduce the capability to remove the snow causing death as a result for a few.
    .
    But, light is indeed on the horizon for the tax payers, our education systems and our children so far as the huge and powerful Teacher’s Union.
    .
    Pennsylvania has under consideration right now a bill called SB-1. School Choice. This amendment will for the first time in Pennsylvania history allow for parents to choose which school they want their child to attend. While I and many others are against it as currently written, we are confident we shall have enough pressure put on our Republican Senators to make this proposed new law broader and include not just “low income students”, but ALL students.
    .
    Competition for students will also put major pressure on school systems and teachers to become more accountable with our children’s education. If they want to continue to receive the on average $20,000 per child tax dollars, they will have to begin proving they are worthy to receive these dollars. Translation, outcomes must improve, or schools will go without these funding dollars. Eventually low performing schools I hope will be closed, and replaced with other school choice options that do meet the expectations we have for the education of our children.
    .
    Teachers and Schools across this great Nation of ours should take a step back and breath deeply. There is change under-foot. Change that if they do not want to be part of, then they will be run over by it. Protest now while you have the chance folks, soon the power is going to be shifted once again.

  • freeinpa

    “why Unions go out of their way to defend seniority rights.”
    .
    Which leads to mediocre performance (for the children of course) or jobs leaving for off-shores. We have discrimination laws that made idiotic seniority rules obsolete. Wake up its 2011 not 1950. We have more rules and protection for every special interest group to sue employers now than anytime in history. Just think of the economic growth if union dues was actually directed toward the economy in the hands of workers instead of union bosses protecting a turf.

  • Paul-no not that one

    From the NY Times today:
    .
    In Columbus, Ohio, Tea Party organizers said they had 300 to 500 people turn out on Thursday for a counterdemonstration against several thousand union members.
    .
    “We weren’t well-versed in everything about the bill and why they’re doing what they’re doing except that we’re broke as a state,” said Adriana Inman, an organizer with the Fairfield Tea Party in Southwest Ohio, who attended the rally.
    .
    “We weren’t well-versed” Indeed.

  • allthingsinaname

    Need I mention they are hitting on students where Collective Bargaining is not allowed too?

  • freeinpa

    And just think of how much more money could actually be spent on students if the schools didn’t spend millions per year getting rid of bad and criminal teachers. Of course its all for the children!

    “At one Chicago school, a teacher locked a special education kindergartner in a closet for hours for defecating in his pants.

    Another teacher repeatedly used emergencies as excuses for being late, arriving minutes before 10 a.m.–the magic hour before which, under union contract, she could not be marked absent and be docked pay.

    The principal of these teachers’ school got rid of them the best way he knew how: He transferred them to other schools.
    .
    School districts across New York State spend on average nearly $200,000 and 476 days on each teacher dismissal hearing

  • freeinpa

    “they’re doing except that we’re broke as a state,”
    .
    This was all they needed to know

  • http://sinisterbutterfly.wordpress.com/ jwbates

    I pulled the data from the NAEP state comparisons, here. Initially I did the comparison based on which states had “right to work” laws, but TPM just posted a map this morning indicating which states allowed collective bargaining with public sector employees.
    .
    My data is still just a spreadsheet.
    .
    (Reposted this comment after I noticed that I could reply to my original comment, and figured the links look better here.)

  • afguy

    Sounds like you are just fine with the “status quo”, free. “Merit-based” pay and awards is a nice talking point, as long as one isn’t allowed to look too closely at the actual implementation.
    .
    You like the idea of a manager who can insure that the “merit” awards go, not necessarily to the most productive employee, but the one who will has the clearest concept of “which side their bread is buttered on” (or the one with the right family or social connections).
    .
    I DO understand that, to come out and say it like that, might be perceived as “unseemly”.

  • Paul-no not that one

    Just so we are clear.
    .
    Madison – State Sen. Jon Erpenbach (D-Middleton) issued a statement on Saturday saying that he had been told that all state and local public employees, including teachers, have agreed to the financial aspects of Gov. Scott Walker’s budget-repair bill.
    .
    “This includes Walker’s requested concession on public employee health care and pension,” Erpenbach’s statement said. “In return, they ask only that the provisions that deny their right to collectively bargain are removed. This will solve the budget challenge.”
    .
    Christina Brey, a spokeswoman for the Wisconsin Education Association Council, confirmed that her organization of state teachers had agreed to the financial aspects of Walker’s request.
    .
    That was from 90 minutes ago.
    .
    This never was about money. If it is then this is settled.
    .
    Walker refuses this and JK’s next post will be calling for Pinkerton.

  • afguy

    No inconvenient info allowed as to the Governor’s previous actions to precipitate this, eh free?
    .
    They’re just supposed to go and say what they were told.

  • the committee

    Joe Klein,
    .
    You are so old. Sometimes I hang out with really old people and they are like, “the public unions have set about, largely unimpeded, to build walls (work rules) that constrict government innovation and ceilings” and blah blah blah, and then they wet themselves, or fall asleep.
    .
    They are so old, and also like robots, because they have been saying literally the same words for forty years or more, and literally “unions bad” are words they cling to, to keep them alive. (They would literally die if they forgot those words.)
    .
    Anyway, an old person who clings to two words to stay alive, that is what you sound like.

  • lreed580

    I really take issue with your claim, Mr. Klein, about teachers committing crimes and hitting on students. Before you make such a statement, please cite a % relative to the overall number of teachers nationwide. In the 26 years I taught, there was one teacher in my district who had inappropriate contact with a student. There is no tolerance either in the school community or the community at large for such behavior. He was suspended and eventually terminated.

    How many days have you actually spent in a public school classroom? As far as merit pay….how do you determine that…..test scores? The classroom I volunteer in now has perhaps 5% Caucasian students as well as Somalia, Russian, Hispanic, African American, in other words limited English speaking. Do we compare her with a classroom in a well-to-do district with primarily Caucasian students with the added benefit of very involved parents and a community that ensures they have all the latest in curriculum and technology? So the teacher in the latter school….her students fare well on achievement tests, while the former classroom struggles even though you have an exceptional teacher? Then we have the whole issue of administrators making that determination.

    My experience with teacher’s unions are not as you describe……they were not the heavy-handed entities you portray them as. Again in my time as a teacher, we came close to striking on one occasion……after having worked for a year without a contract. Our issue was not just salary but a desire to try and keep our class sizes smaller. I’m not aware of any of the teachers’ unions in my state that have ever behaved in the manner you cited.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks
  • along1

    Many cops and firefighters get full pensions after 20 years for one reason only: they put their health at great risk–and often their lives on the line–every. single. day. of their public service. Does anyone here think that sacrifice is not more deserving of a full pension at age 40 or 50 than, say, the non-physical sacrifice of a City Hall or DMV bureaucrat? Why exactly should cops and fiefighters have to work longer and harder for their full pension, Joe and Steve? Why shouldn’t I as a taxpayer be proud to subsidize the full pension of a retired officer, who did all she could to keep my community safe for most of my life so far?

  • afguy

    Do we, free?
    .
    If I recall, workers are having to increasingly prove that they HAVE been illegally discriminated against, despite having no access to the deliberation and decision process.
    .
    Kinda hard to do, unless some dolt is stupid enough to put “kick him out, he’s old” on the WRITTEN record.
    .
    You WANT to be able to hold your finger on the scales when you want, don’t you?

  • afguy

    C’mon, free. Just do what you’ve done in the past – admit that you HATE UNIONS – ALL OF THEM… FULL STOP.
    .
    The rest of this here is all just rationalization, decoration and “window-dressing” to “pretty up” that fact.

  • darius3

    I find it downright comical that a pundit is complaining about the lack of responsibility and accountability in another profession.

    Hey, here’s a thought: Merit Pay for Pundits! If a pundit gets a fact wrong, or makes an incorrect prediction, that pundit gets a pay cut! Who’s with me? Joe?

  • afguy

    You do realize they’d be working for free in short order, don’t you?
    .
    Or paying US for the privilege of writing…

  • afguy

    Don’t totalitarian entities often organize “protests” in this manner?
    .
    “Grassroots”, indeed!

  • paulejb

    Any sightings yet of the AWOL Wisconsin Dem Senators? Who’s paying for this little jaunt?

  • paulejb

    afguy@7.1,
    .
    Try to fire a teacher in NYC. They have a prostitute on the payroll. She no longer teaches since she was exposed but she is still drawing a check.
    .
    And then their are the infamous “rubber rooms” where bad teachers serve out their time on the taxpayers dime.

  • newfreedomblog

    I am sure Obama’s unspent stimulus dollars. Last known whereabouts, they were all in Illinois. :)

  • paulejb

    53_3@8,
    .
    Maybe that message was drowned out by the Hitler posters they were carrying.

  • afguy

    Back for more “hit and run” postings and recreational cleverness, paulie?
    .
    Or are you going to stick around and actually constructively respond to questions?
    .
    Side door’s still unlocked, paulie. I checked.

  • newfreedomblog

  • arinkay

    Hey Joe,

    I’m so over your anti-teacher tic.

    I teach in NJ. Except for the time with my students and some of my colleagues, it’s a pretty demoralizing job these days. I work my tail off, and every year my students acheive more than they (and sometimes I) ever thought they could. But the ideologue governor in the state has incited incredible levels of vitriol towards teachers.

    Last year, my ‘supervisor’, an administrator who didn’t know my name, and who had never even looked through my classroom window (let alone observed me teach), decided that I needed to go. No one knew exactly why – I do my job well and have always actively pursued new methods and ideas. My students and my department have ranked among the best nationally in our discipline. My best guess is that this supervisor’s issue was that I have spoken out when the district or board has proposed program changes that would undercut my students’ education. His desire to have me canned was purely political. As it is, he used the budget excuse to cut enough from our department to get to me – I’m only part time now, and have another job so that I can cover the bills. This is no cushy life, union representation or no.

    You get going on these anti-union things, and really have no idea of the full ramifications of what you say. Do I love my union? Hell, no. I speak out when they do stupid stuff, too. But am I grateful to be unionized? Hell, yes. My union membership doesn’t guarantee much, but at least I know when people like you or Scott Walker or Chris Christie (or my unnamed supervisor) get going there’s someone at my back. One of my colleagues spoke to our governor at a town hall, and she received threats from crazies who posted her personal info online. You think it’s good that we should be out there on our own in this climate that you’ve helped create/perpetuate?

    I have a hard time even skimming your posts about teachers, because it is so clear that you’ve decided you like the anti-union chip on your shoulder. I’m willing to give you a chance, though. My school is doing “Teacher for a Day” in a few weeks, where members of the public can come do our jobs for one day under our supervision. Would you like to come be me? Have you ever done something like this? Considering how you opine on the topic of teachers and teaching, I think it would be highly appropriate.

  • newfreedomblog

    http://teachersunionexposed.com/protecting.cfm
    .
    According to the pro-education reform documentary Waiting for ‘Superman,’ one out of every 57 doctors loses his or her license to practice medicine.
    .
    One out of every 97 lawyers loses their license to practice law.
    .
    In many major cities, only one out of 1000 teachers is fired for performance-related reasons. Why? Tenure.
    .
    One New Jersey union representative was even blunter about the work his organization does to keep bad teachers in the classroom, saying: “I’ve gone in and defended teachers who shouldn’t even be pumping gas.”
    .
    In ten years, only about 47 out of 100,000 teachers were actually terminated from New Jersey’s schools. Original research conducted by the Center for Union Facts (CUF) confirms that almost no one ever gets fired in Newark, New Jersey’s largest school district, no matter how bad. Over four recent years, CUF discovered, Newark’s school district successfully fired about one out of every 3,000 tenured teachers annually. Graduation statistics indicate that the district needs much stronger medicine: Between the 2001-2002 and the 2004-2005 school years, Newark’s graduation rate (not counting the diplomas “earned” through New Jersey’s laughable remedial exam) was a mere 30.6 percent.
    .
    Even Al Shanker, the legendary former president of the American Federation of Teachers, admitted, “a lot of people who have been hired as teachers are basically not competent.”

  • paulejb

    “The process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service.”
    .
    “I want to emphasize my conviction that militant tactics have no place” in the public sector.
    .
    FDR to the National Federation of Federal Employees in 1937.
    .
    FDR and Gov Scott Walker both on the same page.

  • afguy

    I don’t know about NYC, paulie. I don’t live there. But I have my doubts that things are as bad OVERALL as you paint them. We’ve been making policy by anecdote for a long time (“welfare Cadillacs” springs to mind).
    .
    I do know they dismiss teachers here on a very regular basis for bad performance or conduct.
    .
    And the schools still suck. They simply don’t know how to use and encourage the good teachers they DO have.

  • paulejb

    afguy@21,
    .
    What’s your beef, afguy? Is it my cleverness or the fact that I am so often right?
    .
    Don’t miss my 23.

  • afguy

    Hmmm… 73 years ago. Timely.
    .
    But, then, he wasn’t trying to ACTIVELY undercut the workers in the public sector, was he?
    .
    I’ll ask a question that came up yesterday, paulie.
    .
    Are yu getting paid to post this stuff? Care to answer?

  • lauriefive

    Sigh….yet another opinion on the teaching profession from a clueless, well paid opinionator. It is amazing to me that what the anti-union argument always seems to boil down to is that teachers should be subject to the same whims of the market as everybody else. I would propose that teaching is unlike any other profession.

    Look, most teachers are altruistic do-gooders who are in the profession because they believe in the importance of what they are doing. We are not motivated by money so “merit pay” is pointless. We have certain protections (not tenure, though) because our jobs would otherwise be subject to the whims of state legislatures, principals, parents, and even students, not the marketplace. Like doctors and lawyers, teachers sign an oath. Unlike doctors and lawyers, teachers can’t pick and choose their clients. Like other professions, the more experienced teachers are the better teachers. Unlike other professions, the majority of teachers leave the profession in their first five years. Like all human beings, teachers have certain physical and emotional needs. Unlike other professionals, teachers can’t go to the bathroom when they need to, call in sick if they want to (not unless they want to come back to a class in utter chaos), take a break if they need it, make or accept phone calls, have a long lunch, leave early on a Friday, come to work late on a Monday, get paid for all the work they do, chat with colleagues around the water cooler, give all the grunt work to a secretary, expect more than cursory attention to the cleanliness of the workplace (floors get mopped once a year, rooms are never dusted, windows are never washed).

    While I have no doubt that there are people who should leave the teaching profession, the “bad teacher” meme has become the new “conventional wisdom.” If districts were given the latitude to lay off any teacher they wanted, believe me, they would not be looking at the effectiveness of the teachers. They would simply look at how much each teacher costs the district and lay them off accordingly. How do I know? Because districts always make decisions that maximize revenue, even at the expense of student learning. I’ve seen it.

    The fact of the matter is that teachers are not the problem in education. Schools that do poorly are in areas with students who come to school with certain disadvantages. (See Diane Ravitch) Comparisons with students from other countries generally compare their elite students to our general population. Head to head comparisons between American and other elite students show much less disparity or none at all. Unions do not stand in the way of educational progress. As I tell people, my working conditions are my students’ learning conditions. My union, while far from perfect, has been out front in advocating for children – smaller class sizes, more money for the classroom, universal preschool, etc.

    I’m so tired of having to justify myself and my profession. We’re teachers, for goodness sake. We provide a much needed service to the welfare of the nation’s children. We’re not responsible for the crash of the economy, the collapse in revenues, etc. I’m not paid enough to be that much of a problem. It is a topsy turvy world where teachers are the new villains and the crooks on Wall Street and big business are the knights in shining armor.

  • afguy

    No, paulie. Yesterday you were asked about your position on abortion, NOT those of the Catholic hierarchy or GOP talking points, but YOURS.
    .
    You asked mine – I responded.
    .
    You ran out the side door.
    .
    Your supposedly “cleverness” doesn’t impress me. As for your being right so often, just proclaiming that repeatedly doesn’t mean a whole lot either.

  • newfreedomblog

    I think you have a stalker, paulejb. Best be careful. They get cranky even. Some of them have been known to put you in their “crosshairs”.

  • lreed580

    I just saw an interview with the governor of Montana. He was asked about the budget in his state. With re: to benefits for public employees, he sat down and negotiated with them, and they agreed to a 0% increase……but the important point he made was to make sure that you don’t crush the morale of your workers and to show how much you appreciate their willingness to do their part. If they know they are appreciated, they will put in their 110%….I think most of us acknowledge if you are working for an administrator who appreciates your efforts, you are willing to compromise/or go the extra mile.

    If on the other hand, you have governors like Walker, Christie, Kasich, etc., who refuse to not only negotiate but attack you on every front, you not only are demoralized but less willing to compromise. The old sugar and vinegar theory………

  • Paul-no not that one

    And now the fig leaf has been removed.
    .
    Madison — Gov. Scott Walker on Saturday rejected an overture from a Democratic state senator that public employee unions had agreed to make financial sacrifices contained in the budget-repair bill in return for the right to bargain collectively.

  • paulejb

    afguy@7.7,
    .
    The public education system nationwide is a failure. That is primarily due to union rules which protect the incompetent and dispirit the good teachers. It is not possible to have a successful public school system when the only goal is to protect the pay and perks of the teachers and administrators.

  • afguy

    Yup. Get THAT out on the table and let’s see what shakes out now.

  • paulejb

    afguy@21.2,
    .
    Look back at the thread, afguy. I specifically stated that abortion is “evil.” I did not say that it was unfortunate or sad. I said it was evil.
    .
    As for my cleverness not impressing you, you seem to dwell on it quite a bit. Maybe you are more impressed than you know?

  • Paul-no not that one

    Well at least there can be an honest debate now.
    .
    It took 7 days for Walker’s plan to be shown for what it is.
    .
    Now no distractions like phony budget issues. Just union busting.
    .
    I guess we-and the republicans in Wi-will find out exactly how popular an idea that is.

  • Ivy_B

    You want to talk benefits?? If only teachers in PA could have a small percentage of the benefits our legislature has. Look at the complete list — it’s a shocker. And, PA has the third most expensive legislature in the country, behind CA and New York.

    http://www.wrta.com/page.php?page_id=39100&jock_id=4451

    In March, The Daily Item calculated legislators’ years and class of service, and a three-year average salary, and estimated that state Rep. Robert Belfanti Jr., D-107, of Mount Carmel, would receive at least $73,535; state Rep. Russ Fairchild, R-85, of Lewisburg, at least $52,043; and state Rep. Merle Phillips, R-108, of Sunbury, at least $84,523.

    The Citizens’ Voice, of Wilkes-Barre, reported Wednesday its own calculations, which showed Belfanti collecting a $53,105 annual pension and a $157,161 lump-sum payment. Belfanti was elected in 1980. His final salary was $78,314.

    Phillips served in the House for 30 years. He will be collecting an annual $120,621 pension and a $2,113 lump sum payment, according to The Citizens’ Voice. His final salary was $89,300.

    The pension fund, he said, is underfunded, with the legislators contributing only a small percentage of their pay, and taxpayers picking up the rest.

    Benefield said his wish is to see Pennsylvania operating with a part-time Legislature. The commonwealth, he said, is one of four states in the nation that functions with full-time, year-round legislators.

    That is part of what makes Pennsylvania so attractive to legislators — many of whom remain in the state House and Senate 20 to 40 years, making for hefty pension amounts upon retirement.

    Contributions to the pension fund vary depending on when a legislator began his first term in office.

    According to Gentzel, those who began prior to March 1, 1974, had a “very attractive pension benefit,” which accrued 7.5 percent of their final average salary each year they worked. That means in 10 years, they would be eligible for a pension of up to 75 percent of their yearly salary.

    Between 1974 to 2001, most employees were receiving a 2 percent accrual rate, and were paying 5 percent of their salary to the pension fund.

    Those legislators beginning after 2001, and who chose to join the State Employees’ Retirement System, came into a class where they accrued 3 percent of their final average salary, with a contribution rate of 7.5 percent.

    According to the National Conference of State Legislatures, the base pay of Pennsylvania lawmakers, $78,314, more than legislators in any other state, except New York, California and Michigan.

    http://dailyitem.com/0100_news/x175059388/Retiring-state-legislators-decline-comment-on-pensions/print

    Remember these numbers when they go after teachers in PA. Legislators used to be able to get full benefits at 50 instead of the 60 years for everyone else. There was a change last year changing the age to 65 for everyone except legislators, they went to 55.

  • paulejb

    afguy@23.1,
    .
    Whoa! I thought that you people believed that FDR was the font of all wisdom and that everything that he said was a universal truth? Now you want to throw him under the bus?
    .
    If you are offering to pay, I’ll give you a PO box number to which you can send the cash. No checks or credit cards accepted.

  • afguy

    Keep saying it, paulie. A thousand times, if you wish, and your proclamation that “unions is the whole problem” ain’t gonna wash any more than it did the first 20 times you said it.
    .
    Teachers unions here in Ky and miost places don’t prevent bad teachers from being shown the door. That’s been pointed out more than once here. But we do understand that “talking points” in the absence of any real moral compass to counteract them is a hard obstacle to overcome in a discussion.
    .
    The phrase that “none are so blind as those who will not see” seems to be appropriate here, paulie.

  • paulejb

    newfeedomblog@23.2,

    They may look like stalkers, newfreedom, but I like to think of them as fans.

  • afguy

    Whoa! I thought that you people believed that FDR was the font of all wisdom and that everything that he said was a universal truth?
    .
    That’s YOUR pathetic “strawman”, paulie.
    .
    We don’t have the equivalent of Reagan and “free markets” to bow down to.

  • afguy

    In all cases, paulie?
    .
    Not much detail there – sounds more like a RW “talking point” to me…
    .
    And, like I said, be careful about the “death of innocents” argument – that’s gonna bite you if you carry it to its logical conclusion.

  • afguy

    And still no answer as to your getting paid by an outside entitry for posting this stuff.
    .
    Do they cover “evasive or partial answers” in the training course?

  • afguy

    Almost forgot the third Deity in the RW Trinity…
    .
    Guns. And the NRA.

  • newfreedomblog

    LOL@”fans” Priceless.

  • http://sinisterbutterfly.wordpress.com/ jwbates

    You know what the problem with Joe is? He’s a trained anecdotalist.
    .
    He talks to people, pulls quotes, and makes judgements based on what they tell him and what he thinks of them.
    .
    So when some school administrator tells him that the biggest problem he faces is teacher unions, and tells him story after story, he uses them as if they were the basis of a sound public policy.
    .
    Over and over again, when Joe makes big mistakes, he makes them based on what somebody in power tells him.
    .
    Present him with real data, or a sound analysis, and he ignores it, because, after all, it conflicts with what the New York City School Chancellor told him over lunch or Pete Hoekstra let slip.

  • paulejb

    afguy@23.5,
    .
    Won’t find real conservatives throwing Ronnie under the bus, afguy. I have always said that liberals are known for shooting their own wounded.

  • newfreedomblog

    “We don’t have the equivalent of Reagan and “free markets” to bow down to.”

    .
    You don’t?
    .
    Labor Unions? You don’t see most if not all politicians from the left bowing down so low to Unions a snake couldn’t get under them?
    .
    http://www.politico.com/blogs/glennthrush/0211/Pelosi_backs_Wisconsin_protesters.html
    .

    House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi came out strongly in support of Wisconsin teachers and students who are protesting Gov. Scott Walker’s proposal to public employees of collective bargaining rights.
    .
    Pelosi told reporters Friday that the protests are “an extraordinary show of democracy in action.”
    .
    “Wisconsin’s workers, teachers and public servants must have a seat at the table to fight for a safe workplace,” she said. “I stand in solidarity with the Wisconsin workers fighting for their rights, especially for all the students and young people leading the charge.”

    .
    Let’s see, how many trips to the White House has AFL-CIO bossman, Trumka and SEIU’s old boss Stern made to date? 50? 100 each? (That we know of).
    .
    You might want to read this from Politico as well, afguy. How Unions are now perceived in the United States by most Americans.
    .
    http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0211/Poll_Public_unions_a_hard_sell.html?showall
    .
    And then to top the cake with a nice cherry, One Nation. The eclectic convergence of everything “progressive”, including the National Socialist “Democratic” Party of America to name just one.
    .
    http://action.onenationworkingtogether.org/content/main

    .

  • paulejb

    afguy@23.6,
    .
    It would be the fulfillment of a dream. To be paid for doing what you love which is exposing liberal myths.
    .
    Where do I sign up?
    .
    P.S. You never said whether you agree with FDR or not?

  • afguy

    Yeah, that’s the problem, paulie. Reagan was a flawed human being who made loads of mistakes, and suffered from Alzheimer’s… but you “conservatives” won’t throw him under the bus for any reason.
    .
    You DO realize how “weak minded” and subservient that makes you look, don’t you?
    .
    As I said, we don’t have earthly “gods” to worship like you apparently do.

  • hippooath

    “What’s your beef, afguy? Is it my cleverness or the fact that I am so often right?”
    .
    Now there’s a funny joke

  • apr2563

    If you have worked in a school system you know how uninvolved many principals are. They have the opportunity in the first couple of years to mentor and if not successful to terminate a teacher after documented observation. Many never enter the classroom.
    .
    I have been a member of a school board and witnessed the rubber stamping of Superintentent and other administrators initiatives and the discounting of teachers. I saw contracts given to school board members by these same administrators.
    .
    Now, Joe, who do you want to judge and determine merit pay?

  • http://sinisterbutterfly.wordpress.com/ jwbates

    paulejb in 7.8:

    Prove it. Show the data. If unions are the whole problem, then the states which have eliminated collective bargaining should be winning the educational race, right?
    .
    Oddly, that’s not where they show up in the rankings.

  • newfreedomblog

    Since stuartz is not coming on here any longer it seems, I will say “thank you Joe Klein for responding to commentary”. Thanks Joe.

  • paulejb

    afguy@23.7,
    .
    You sound just like Obama speaking of the folks in fly over country.
    .
    “And it’s not surprising then that they get bitter, they cling to guns and religion…”
    .
    A perfect example of how self appointed liberal elites show contempt for the average American.

  • afguy

    As a blanket statement applicable to all circumstances and times, no.
    .
    As a statement that might have made sense in 1937 during circumstances that existed then… don’t know. I wasn’t there.
    .
    See, I’m not a fan of lifting sentences from speeches and applying them with NO CONTEXT whatsoever.
    .
    That’s YOUR schtick, paulie…

  • newfreedomblog

    http://teachersunionexposed.com/protecting.cfm
    .
    One little click Dorothy (afguy) and you can read all of the information to your hearts content on why Unions have been bad for our Education system, our schools, for our children and all the little kittens in the world to boot.

  • paulejb

    afguy@23.12,
    .
    “Barack Hussein Obama, hmmm, hmmm. hmmm…”
    .
    Now you are just making me laugh, afguy. Conservatives never claimed that Ronnie was the “one.” No “messiahs” for us, Sparky.

  • afguy

    paulie@23.13
    .
    Nice summation using old election “talking points”…
    .
    Well done… your “handler” must be proud.

  • earljr1

    What disgusting commentary from an obviously immature ideologue.You find it necessary to degenerate our seniors in your pathetic attempt to defend unions and show an incredible bias in doing so.
    Face it, unions are SO yesterday and perhaps our seniors are experienced enough in life to recognize the immense harm they have done to virtually every industry polluted with their presence.
    They are job busting and economically unfeasible in today’s marketplace and yes, this includes teachers unions. They show no flexibility, promote stagnation and simply fail to adjust with the speed necessary to compete in a highly competitive environment. It is time to move on and no, I have not had the privilege of achieving senior status yet. I am 38 and will celebrate a birthday in March.

  • afguy

    Earth to paulie: YOU’RE the one that uses the term “messiah” to describe Obama – not us.
    .
    Nice projection.

  • afguy

    Is THIS the best you can do at showing “cleverness”?
    .
    You need to go back for more training or a refund.

  • paulejb

    afguy@23.14,

    Okay, your up, afguy. Tell us what you think that FDR meant by those quotes. Was he in favor of collective bargaining in the public sector? Did he favor public employee militancy?

  • http://sinisterbutterfly.wordpress.com/ jwbates

    @7.11:
    .
    anecdotes, anecdotes, and sloppy reasoning. Front page, for example, compares dismissals of doctors and lawyers vs. teachers.
    .
    And yet, we are shown no evidence of a causal connection between union activity and dismissal rates. A market-based explanation is simpler than sinister unions: there’s a higher demand for teachers, so administrators have less latitude to dismiss low performers.
    .
    There’s even a test for this hypothesis: compare the dismissal statistics for the most-desirable teaching jobs with the least-desirable, e.g. dismissals in rich suburbs vs. dismissals in the inner city schools.
    .
    Of course, doing this kind of data analysis might conflict with your “facts”.

  • afguy

    Don’t know, paulie. I’m not FDR and I didn’t know him, so I can’t tell you what he meant.
    .
    Putting words in other people’s mouths is what YOU specialize in.

  • paulejb

    afguy@23.16,
    .
    That’s what is great about the internet, afguy. Nothing ever goes away. It’s impossible to get away with talking out of both sides of your mouth anymore.

  • paulejb

    afguy@23.20,
    .
    Your right, afguy. I used the go way back machine to return to 1937 and put those words in FDR’s mouth..
    .
    Are you really gonna go with that line? Is that the best that you can come up with?

  • afguy

    Oh, I agree, paulie.
    .
    YOU might remember that.

  • afguy

    Looks like it’s your naptime, paulie.
    .
    You’re slipping noticeably.

  • freeinpa

    “If on the other hand, you have governors like Walker, Christie, Kasich, etc., who refuse to not only negotiate but attack you on every front”
    .
    Amazing how “willing” they became to negotiate after te governor acted.
    ,
    You also forgot Gov Cuomo who also realized the public union are a one way ticket to bankruptcy

  • freeinpa

    “You want to talk benefits?? If only teachers in PA could have a small percentage of the benefits our legislature has.”
    .
    I agree cut them both

  • paulejb

    afguy@23.17,
    .
    You obviously missed what Oprah and Louis Farrakhan had to say about the boy wonder.
    .
    And how could you have forgotten this from the Bam himself…
    .
    “This was the moment when the rise of the oceans began to slow and our planet began to heal.”

  • afguy

    It’s definitely nap-time, paulette.
    .
    You’re really thrashing around now.

  • paulejb

    afguy@23.24,
    .
    Give up, afguy? Don’t worry. I’ll let you down easy.

  • 53_3

    Like the ones at that Tea Party shindig I posted the link to yesterday?

  • 53_3

    The map alone is a bit damning…

  • afguy

    Paulie,
    .
    The ONLY “let down” involving you is that you turned out to have so little to offer on this topic today.
    .
    That was a real “let down”… we welcome constructive input. Pity you had none to offer.

  • 53_3

    Wow. paulejb, wow.
    .
    Unlike you, when I take a victory lap, I usually throw a few indisputable facts out there first…

  • paulejb

    afguy@23.26,
    .
    Unfortunately for you, afguy, I can handle a handful of you in my sleep. So you won’t be saved by my taking a nap.
    .
    P.S. When a poster get’s snarky and starts feminizing another posters screen name it’s a sure sign that he or she has lost the argument.

  • afguy

    Apologies to all here in the “Swamp” for the “troll-fencing”…

  • afguy

    Yeah, Heaven forbid that we ever take into consideration the significance of “thin skin”.

  • 53_3

    he’s a master of the “slash and dash”, that paulejb, ain’t he, afguy?

  • paulejb

    afguy@23.28,
    .
    Whining and complaining is not “constructive input,” afguy. A constant chorus of “woe is me” adds nothing to the discussion.

  • 53_3

    Actually, freeinpa, his commentary demonstrates that your theory about one way tickets is a load of shirt.

  • pintortwo

    Thank you Lauriefive, your perspective is a welcome addition to this thread. Keep up the good work, it is much appreciated.

  • paulejb

    53_3@23.32,
    .
    “Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee,” 53. You just can’t keep up with the footwork, Sparky.

  • pintortwo

    Thank you arinkay, for your input here and hard-work at school.

  • afguy

    he’s a master of the “slash and dash”, that paulejb, ain’t he, afguy?
    .
    Fitty,
    .
    I figure that activity is covered somewhere around chapter 5 of “The Troll-ers Handbook”.
    .
    And he never did answer about “fee-based” trolling.

  • hippooath

    “Amazing how “willing” they became to negotiate after te governor acted.
    ,
    You also forgot Gov Cuomo who also realized the public union are a one way ticket to bankruptcy”
    .
    Amazing how they had already negotiated about it with the former Governor and that was thrown out the window by Walker.
    .
    I know that you don’t want to admit it, but this was never about negotations, it was about union busting.

  • 53_3

    rusty:
    .
    You are no Stuart Zechman.

  • 53_3

    You want to talk benefits?
    .
    pay your f*in freight, freeinpa.
    .
    I’ll give up $3000 extra in taxes to help fix America if our whiny, greedy, good-for-nothing silver spoon pilots do the same…

  • marvyt

    Joe wrote “and there is a second, corrupting factor: the UAW* can’t vote or campaign for new management. The Teachers Unions can and do.”

    In Germany trade unions are part of the supervisory boards that run the corporations. They take a much more active role in management and it pays off bigtime. Just search for “German codetermination”.
    Also, if supervisors were allowed to just layoff the teachers they wanted to, many would just layoff the most expensive ones. After all, school administrators vary widely in intelligence and competence. The ones I have met are better at politics than teaching.

  • afguy

    Think we ought to break it to ol’ paulie that he just quoted something used to describe a famous black draft-dodger, or al least one that refused to take a loyalty oath?
    .
    We KNOW how important such things are to the RW “Freedom Typers”.

  • 53_3

    Andrew Carnegie once wrote a book called the Gospel of Wealth:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gospel_of_Wealth
    .
    I want every locklipped, useless, greedy low life silver spoon pilot to read what a real Captain of Industry wrote.
    .
    Andrew Carnegie lived long before there were regulations and taxes, but his words are as true today as the were in 1889, and it is what made our country great…

  • http://sinisterbutterfly.wordpress.com/ jwbates

    anecdotes, anecdotes, and sloppy reasoning. Front page, for example, compares dismissals of doctors and lawyers vs. teachers.
    .
    And yet, we are shown no evidence of a causal connection between union activity and dismissal rates. A market-based explanation is simpler than sinister unions: there’s a higher demand for teachers, so administrators have less latitude to dismiss low performers.
    .
    There’s even a test for this hypothesis: compare the dismissal statistics for the most-desirable teaching jobs with the least-desirable, e.g. dismissals in rich suburbs vs. dismissals in the inner city schools.
    .
    Of course, doing this kind of data analysis might conflict with your “facts”. All of your anecdotes and pull quotes fit better within my hypothesis than yours, and gosh golly, it sure looks like the statistics do, too.

  • newfreedomblog

    Yea freeinpa, this is IQ53′s idea of “pay your f*in freight, freeinpa.”
    .
    Pay particular attention @ 3.25. “the only way yo’ repentance can be………..and white people took a lot from black people”
    .
    So “pay your f*in freight” freeinpa. Pay pay pay.
    .

  • apr2563

    Joe, I am sure you are a great fan of Michele Rhee, “Waiting for Superman”, and TFA. Now please some facts and questions that must be considered:
    .
    “Waiting for Superman”
    .
    CREDO study, where 17% of charter schools performed better but 37% performed worse.
    if we could replace the worst performing 5 to 10 % of teachers, our schools would be performing at the same level as Finland, the highest scoring nation in the world.
    Finland, however, has a far lower rate of children in poverty than does the US, and that difference accounts for much of the difference in performance. But Finland also has a 100% unionized teaching force, which seems relevant to mention if Finland is supposed to be the standard by which we judge our performance.
    given comparative statistics for lifting of licenses for doctors and lawyers versus only 1 in 2,500 Illinois teachers losing their teaching certificates. But that totally ignores the large number of teachers who leave before they get tenure, many of whom are low performers. If only 1/2 of those are substandard teachers, then the rate of substandard teachers leaving is higher than the 5-10% Hanushek says is necessary to replace, and not only 1 in 2,500. .
    By his own admission in the film, Geoffrey Canada was NOT even a satisfactory teacher his first two years. He said he didn’t begin to hit his stride until his 3rd year. Elsewhere, but not in the film, Michelle Rhee has acknowledged that she was a horrible teacher her first year and half. She came out of Teach for America. Both of these people, offered as models for what we should be doing about education, demonstrate something very well known – that as a nation we do a poor job of preparing our teachers and inducting them – bringing them into the classroom. Finland does so over several years with decreasing amounts of supervision and increasing levels of individual responsibility for the new teachers. Finland offers a model which works. Teach for America, by the words of Rhee and Canada, is not what we should depend upon. And if we were to summarily fire 5-10% of teachers only to replace them with additional novices, there is no evidence this will improve student performance.
    .
    It is totally wrong when it describes tenure for public school teachers as a life-time guarantee of a job., All tenure does is require due process according to contract rules mutually agreed to by unions and school boards. Note the two parts to this: due process, and mutually agreed to. The portion of the film with Jason Kamrad is used to imply that it is almost impossible to dismiss a tenured teacher. In fact it is not, rubber rooms not withstanding, if administrators follow the rules and document. Something I had to do as a manager in the private sector. Observe, mentor, and terminate after 1 verbal, 3 written warnings.
    .
    Michelle Rhee dismissed a batch of teachers ostensibly because the city could not afford them, but replaced some with people from Teach for America. When she got caught she talked about a handful who rightfully should have been dismissed (although that could easily have been done under proper procedures) while implying that all of the dismissed teachers had similar problems. That was not honest.

    Mr. Canada is absolutely correct in providing what are known as wrap-around services, including medical and tutoring and family support. What the film implies is that Mr. Canada is obtaining better results applying the same or similar resources, and somehow if others would take his approach, which includes his insistence on no union and the ability to fire any teacher, all would be well.
    .
    The New York Times has a recent piece that is quite appropriate, about which many have now commented. Titled Lauded Harlem Schools Have Their Own Problems, the piece appeared on October 12. In it we learn that the schools in Harlem Children’s Village have per pupil expenditures of $16,000 in the classroom and thousands more outside the classroom. The average class size in the Promise Academy High school is about 15, with two licensed teachers per class. Think about the image of most urban schools: how often do you see as few as 20 students per class? How rarely are there two adults to deal with what is often 30 or more students?

    The school, which opened in 2004 in a gleaming new building on 125th Street, should have had a senior class by now, but the batch of students that started then, as sixth graders, was dismissed by the board en masse before reaching the ninth grade after it judged the students’ performance too weak to found a high school on. Mr. Canada called the dismissal “a tragedy.”

    Even now, most of its seventh graders are still behind. Only 15 percent passed the state’s English test. Their failure to perform resulted in the firing of several teachers and the reassignment of others. Although 38 percent of children in third through sixth grade passed the English test under the state’s new guidelines, their performance placed them in the lower half of charter schools in the city and below the city’s overall passing rate of 42 percent.

    There is not a single example of a successful traditional public school, whether in troubled neighborhoods – and they do exist – or in places like suburbs where many of our schools perform at levels as high as in any place in the world. Instead it allows Canada to paint with a broad brush, saying “the system is broken” and implying that ALL of American education is failing.

    Michelle Rhee – the former chancellor for DC Schools, and prominently displayed as an example of what successful school administration should look like in the propaganda piece “Waiting for Superman” has a major problem on her hands.

    Michelle Rhee claimed on her resume she successfully got impoverished inner-city black kids in Baltimore to meet or beat the scores of suburban asian kids in Potomac on standardized tests. If true, that amounts to claiming she single-handedly solved the most intractable problem in public education, the “achievement gap.” Even more amazing, she did it in just two years as a novice teacher.
    .
    Rhee, who taught second and third grade at Harlem Park Elementary School in Baltimore from 1992-1995, claims in her resume

    Over a two-year period, moved students scoring at the 13th percentile on national standardized tests to 90 percent of students scoring at the 90th percentile or higher.

    There were no separate results for Rhee or any other Harlem Park teacher. The study also noted that many students at the struggling Baltimore school were not tested.

    But the results were presented in enough detail to raise questions about whether any single class could have made strides of the magnitude Rhee depicted on her resume.

    Rhee said she taught second grade for two years, then third grade in 1994-95. In that year, Rhee said, her class made a major leap in achievement.

    The study found that third-graders overall at the school made gains that year in reading and math. But they finished nowhere near the 90th percentile. (emphasis added). Basically, they were seeing a 15 percentile improvement, not an 80 percentile improvement. To be fair, 15 percentile point improvement is pretty damn good. If it is real and if it is maintained. That is comparable to the difference between a C and an A. That is a big deal. But even if she had all the worst kids, thus pulling down the average scores in that grade. Getting them to the level she claimed still doesn’t get reflected in the data. The fact is similar gains were seen in other grades at that school as well. There was nothing notable about the 3rd graders performance when you looked at the school as a whole, or even if you compared them to other similar schools. One thing the study did find is absentee levels for her school went up, not down. That isn’t going to help performance
    .
    The study found that the number of students tested varied each year, injecting another element of uncertainty.

    One of the big problems every study of performance in schools like this face is the fact of student turn-over. The kids you measure in 2nd grade are often not the kids you are measuring in 4th grade, two years later. That is because these families are notoriously unstable and migratory. People go where the jobs are. Families are broken up by drugs, incarceration, death and disease. Children are shuttled from parents to grandparents to foster parents and back. It is not uncommon to see 20-50% turnovers in a single year in any given grade in these schools. That, by itself, is a major headache for teachers desperately trying to prepare kids for increasingly irrelevant high-stakes standardized tests.

  • newfreedomblog

    IQ53:
    .
    Neither are you buddy. Neither are you thank God.

  • afguy

    Hmmm…
    .
    Looks like paulie left.
    .
    Hope it wasn’t something I said…

  • apr2563

    Now Joe, I challenge you to do an independent study to compare outcomes for educational systems in the US and other countries before deciding it is the weakness of teachers and the influence of unions.
    .
    Consider these points:
    l. Quality of administrations
    Do they mentor, encourage, and use their ability to terminate when appropriate?
    2. Do foreign schools, private schools etc. mandate mainstreaming of students challenged by mental or physical issues as is true in US public schools?
    3. Do US teachers have the same parental support in all districts and as in other countries
    4. How are schools funded in other countries? Are they as varied as ours are by the use of property taxes?
    5. Do foreign schools have better incentives for doing well by offering easier access to higher education?
    6. What affect does student turnover have on outcomes?
    7. How do we compare outcomes in the US with those in countries with multi-tiered systems?
    .
    Please consider all variables before assigning blame.

  • afguy

    The ones I have met are better at politics than teaching.
    .
    I’d say the point could be made that they are promoted into those positions for that precise reason.
    .
    Many teachers don’t want or like to engage in the “politics” required of an Administrator.

  • apr2563

    I don’t think freeper has ever lived in the real world.
    .
    California has a fire at will policy. After working hard for the same company for 10 years (in fact, being there when they opened their doors) and accumulating promotions and excellent reviews I was terminated.
    .
    Why? The company was looking to sell and was cutting costs. I was the highest paid supervisor because of length of service and because of age, my health premiums were higher and added to the companies costs. They also terminated several other older employees.
    .
    The company was bought by a state non-profit and then closed its doors, as planned. Driven out of business by insurance companies that no longer wanted to participate in a state health insurance pool for small businesses.
    .
    I could have sued. But, that is not something I wanted to spend my time doing. Because the firing was so bogus, the company did not fight my application for unemployment insurance and a few months later I retired at 62. Of course, I had to hold my breath I wouldn’t get sick before I was eligible for Medicare at 65>

  • http://erieangel.wordpress.com erieangel

    That is happening in the military as well. My brother-in-law served 20 years in the army and retired with full pension. He was only 39. Full pension plus a full time in the private sector. And right now, at the age of 51, he’s not even in the private sector, he actually is working for the army. His job is to talk young people out of leaving the armed services. Combined income for himself and my sister is upwards of $200,000.

  • apr2563

    Merit pay can be quite subjective. As a manager, I wrote and gave evaluations based on merit. It took many statistical inputs and close observation and mentoring and documentation on my part.
    .
    However, when it came to assign ratings, the company would often dictate perimeters. If I had 15 people I managed and could assign ratings 1 to 4, I would be told to contain salary costs I had to have an average of 2 on my ratings. Therefore, even if I had a number of people who deserved 4s, I had to adjust the evaluations to make sure I met the average 2.
    .
    Also, not all managers were that hands on with their employees and just assigned numbers with little consideration for actual merit.

  • apr2563

    Joe has his biased anecdotes. I have one. I happen to know a teacher who taught for years. After a hearing, she was terminated because she was raising and selling pot with her husband.
    .
    It didn’t take years. It took due process.

  • apr2563

    Thanks jwbates. Hopefully, JK takes time to read comments. Not likely. He gets most of his information from those that support his biases.

  • carotexas1

    For those interested here is a link to some great photos at Daily Kos.

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/19/947139/-70,000-in-Solidarity-(Photo-Diary)

  • apr2563

    Excellent!

  • newfreedomblog

    http://www.oecd.org/document/24/0,3746,en_2649_39263294_43586328_1_1_1_1,00.html
    .
    Everything and anything you want to know about US education, cost comparison with other industrialized county, etc.
    .
    US – Fail – Spends more than all other countries per student.
    .
    US – Fail – For all the money spent, student outcomes are at less than average of all OECD countries combined. (Not quite as bad as our rankings for healthcare spending versus outcomes, but close).
    .
    US – Fail – For the amount of money spent on teacher salaries combined with test score results and student outcomes or achievement.
    .
    So if it is not money spent to get better educated children, what is it? Accountability. Accountability of teachers, parents and children / students.

  • earljr1

    He also said, 53, “Upon the sacredness of property civilization itself depends—the right of the laborer to his hundred dollars in the savings bank and equally the legal right of the millionaire to his millions”.
    Charity is a matter of conscience, 53 and most wealthy people I know are generous and profoundly cognizant of the need to assist in their community. They give generously and support many “life sustaining” outreaches in our community. One of those should be of interest to you. It is the renal health charitable foundation and it provides dialysis for thousands of low income citizens. All of this, mind you, from those greedy, low life silver spoons you so vehemently attack.
    You paint with a broad brush, 53 and in doing so, sometimes attack the very people trying to help you.

  • apr2563

    Paul: What we need is another Ludlow massacre. Maybe then we can get back to the fine times of the Triangle Shirt Factory fire. Then JK may be pacified.
    .
    Of course, he wont care. He is a member of the elite.

  • newfreedomblog

    Self-hating, earl. IQ53 has married into a community which behind his back laugh and make fun of him. Because he cannot lash out at them, the next best answer to solve IQ’s problems is to lash out at those he rejected so long ago.
    .
    Rejection plays such tricky games with minds like IQ53. Sad, so truly sad.

  • apr2563

    earljr1, being an expert at the subject, I find it hilarious that you find denigrating seniors as abhorent. As someone you constantly characterize as an old hippie and worse and your friend newfreedom called a b!tch yesterday, I find your sensitivity less than believable.

  • Matt

    The public workers of Wisconsin HAVE made sacrifices. They’ve already taken brutal cuts and repeated abuse from the tea baggers. They have told Dictator Walker they are willing to accept his even deeper cuts proposed in the budget. But collective bargaining must be taken off the table. Walker and the Republithugs have refused. They are the ones that refuse to compromise and are insisting on a radical and unprecedented attack on ordinary, hard-working citizens.
    http://www.sunstateactivist.org

  • lauriefive

    Thank you, pint. You are very kind.

  • apr2563

    Mr. Dirks, I have bookmarked your blog site. Look forward to checking in on occasion.

  • earljr1

    I think you are right, newfreedom, his anger is consuming him, almost to a point of incoherence.

  • swissArmyBrainBETA

    jwbates, thanks for the work, but for the numbers to mean anything, you would need to control for other factors that have a huge impact on education outcomes. i certainly wouldn’t expect an individual to do that for a blog, but i would sure think there are large scale research efforts around. i’ll go hunting.

  • newfreedomblog

    Did Daily Chaos capture these folks at the Union Rally in Madison?
    .
    “Cairo to Madison”…..
    .

  • Paul-no not that one

    If there is any over-riding philosophy JK has it is this.
    .
    Everyone must sacrifice. But JK and his class.
    .
    He is gung-ho for wars he will never fight. The “smart” one who will tell you what the correct posture is.
    .
    This isn’t Texas redistricting. This isn’t tax policy. This isn’t healthcare. This is about peoples livelihoods.
    .
    And the people of Wisconsin aren’t going to shrug their shoulders and walk away when this gets forced through (and it will) they will bring more than the governor has seen so far.

  • apr2563

    We know the side JK is on.

    http://thinkprogress.org/2011/02/18/business-teaparty-wisconsin/

    A number of the big business interests standing with Walker are beneficiaries of his administration’s tax giveaways. But the greatest ally to Walker is the dirty energy company Koch Industries. In response to the growing protests in Madison, Koch fronts are busing in Tea Party protesters to support Walker and his union-busting campaign….
    Koch Industries is a major player in Wisconsin: Koch owns a coal company subsidiary with facilities in Green Bay, Manitowoc, Ashland and Sheboygan; six timber plants throughout the state; and a large network of pipelines in Wisconsin. While Koch controls much of the infrastructure in the state, they have laid off workers to boost profits. At a time when Koch Industries owners David and Charles Koch awarded themselves an extra $11 billion of income from the company, Koch slashed jobs at their Green Bay plant…..
    .
    Koch Industries was one of the biggest contributors to Walker’s gubernatorial campaign, funneling $43,000 over the course of last year. In return, Koch front groups are closely guiding the Walker agenda. The American Legislative Exchange Council, another Koch-funded group, advised Walker and the GOP legislature on its anti-labor legislation and its first corporate tax cuts.

  • sacredh

    I am the Anti-SZ. Today Swampland, tomorrow the world.

  • apr2563

    Joe, can you tell us what professional guilds you belong to. In what capacity do they represent you. How many agents and lawyers do you have negotiating salary and benefits for you? Transparency please.

  • newfreedomblog

    Prior to the rally, the liberal group plans to host an opposition panel discussion called, “Uncloaking the Kochs: The Billionaires’ Caucus and its Threat to our Democracy.” The featured speakers include Robert Reich, former Labor Secretary and now chairman of Common Case’s National Governing Board; Van Jones, Senior Fellow, Center for American Progress and former “Green Jobs Czar”; Erwin Chemerinsky, dean of the law school at the University of California-Irvine; Lee Fang, an journalist at the Center for American Progress; and DeAnn McEwen, co-President of the California Nurses Association.

    “Our goal here for the panel Sunday is to talk about the Billionaires Caucus agenda, its human impact and what can be done to restore the voices of ordinary Americans to the our political process,” explained Bob Edgar, president of Common Cause.“Our government is supposed to be of, by and for the people, but it has been hijacked by self-interested billionaires. We must take it back. “

    Despite the hyperbole, the Koch conference doesn’t sound so different from many off-the-record political conferences, including those held by the professional left. Shortly after the 2010 elections, for example, liberal groups converged on Washington D.C.’s Oriental Mandarin hotel, The meeting, hosted by Democracy Alliance featured liberal leaders such as Van Jones, hedge fund manager Donald Sussman, and AFL-CIO president Richard Trumka. Michael Vachon, a George Soros representative, and Peter Lewis, CEO of Progressive Insurance also attended.

    .
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/dailycaller/20110129/pl_dailycaller/liberalsplantouncloakthekochbrothers
    .
    So who are the “evil-doers”? The “Professional Left” organized by billionaire George Soros and his nearly 100 groups he funds for progressive causes, or the Koch Brothers?
    .
    Name them all april2563. Name all of the sub-groups the Koch Brothers fund. Show the proof that the Koch Brothers have given one red penny to the Tea Party or any of the Tea Party grassroots groups around the country.
    .
    Come on april2563, surely with all the power behind the progressive movement you can come up with at least ONE instance. Can’t you april2563?

  • http://sinisterbutterfly.wordpress.com/ jwbates

    No, that’s not true. If the hypothesis is, as has been stated several times in this comment section, that the collective bargaining power of unions is the single largest problem facing public education today, then there should have been a statistical correlation between the performance of the students and the illegality of the collective bargaining process.
    .
    In the case of math, there was no correlation at all. In the case of the reading, there was a slight negative correlation which was probably not statistically significant.
    .
    It is reasonable to therefore conclude that collective bargaining is *not* the single largest problem facing public education, and that, in fact, there may be other factors with more explanatory power, as you say.

  • stuartzechman

    You guys are too freaking entertaining.
    .
    Thank you for acknowledging Joe’s response to commentary, Rustydog.

  • the committee

    earljr1,
    .
    Stuff it. That is all.

  • newfreedomblog

  • stuartzechman

    The meat of this response, that Joe is reciting poorly understood policy dreamed up by anti-liberal ideologues in the Democratic Party over 20 years ago, is essentially true.

  • newfreedomblog

    It can’t be explained better than this…
    .

  • http://2thirdsrocks.wordpress.com 2thirdsrocks

    Pfft…

  • sacredh

    “But the problem isn’t only the inability to fire bad teachers–and not just bad teachers, but even those who’ve been caught commiting crimes and hitting on students. The problem is that we are unable to reward good teachers”

    There’s also a flip side to that. What about students that hit on teachers? Should we get rid of them? I was an honors student in high school and worked on a young teacher for over a year before I finally talked her into having sex. She was a great teacher. She was young (6-7 years older than me) and single. I looked older than she did. She made a mistake. As far as I know, she never did it again with another student. I saw her off and on again for years after I graduated. The fault was all mine. She told me for years that what she did was the biggest mistake of her life. Luckily, nobody ever found out and she had a long career and received several honors in the district. People make mistakes.

  • http://shortplaysaboutrealpeople.wordpress.com Michael Maiello

    Oh my. Joe Klein thinks that a highly trained law enforcement officer, after spending decades in life-risking work, should spend another decade as a garbage collector in order to collect their pension.

    You should be ashamed of that, Joe.

  • earljr1

    What business is it of yours, april? Joe happens to write a column you disagree with and you attack like a yard dog.
    The ultra left is beyond comprehension. Your affinity for unions is truly representative of just how “out of touch” you are with mainstream America and your bitterness at being rejected resonates in your message.
    Unions no longer bring progress and security. They bring lost jobs and unemployment for the constraints they place on industry. This is no longer the 20′s and 30′s, april, but with your restricted view, living in yesteryear seems appropriate.

  • afguy

    More info (in case there is ANY doubt that this isn’t about busting unions):
    .
    Walker applied his “collective bargaining” order against only the unions that historically oppose the GOP during elections.
    .
    The firefighters and police were exempted, ostensibly out of a concern for “public safety”, so the order was NOT applied across-the-board.
    .
    Union members have agreed to the concessions that would address the deficit (if this was what it is about).
    .
    Walker has refused to budge on the “collective bargaining” aspect, which has NOTHING to do with the budget and is being unevenly targeted. in any rate.
    .
    This is about “union busting” – PERIOD!

  • carotexas1

    Rusty this should really worry you
    .

  • afguy

    More accurately, it’s “union-busting” directed against political opponents.
    .
    He’s banking on the exempted unions refusing to support the others out of a sense of gratitude or self-preservation.
    .
    Doesn’t appear to be working that way.
    .
    Anyone remember the phrase “there, but for the grace of God, go I”?

  • http://2thirdsrocks.wordpress.com 2thirdsrocks

    I made a mistake with a teacher when I was a young man. But, good teacher that she was, she worked with me until I got it right!

  • swissArmyBrainBETA

    you two run out of sht to fling yet? JK makes a number of important observations about the fundamental liabilities of public sector unions, which are ignored by his critics (you) in favor of endless speculation about his underlying hatred of unions, his evil nature, and lack of care for anyone outside his class. same thing every time. apr LOOOOOOOVES to argue about unions but never bothers to specifically address the points made

  • formerlyjames

    “The public sector is different from the private sector.”

    I read the previous threads and just don’t have time to go through it here. I know the regular participants and what they will say.

    Just this. The “different” statement caught my eye. Mr. Klein puts people working for a decent wage and living into “sectors”. We have this sector and that one and we will accord voice accordingly.

    Everybody from the middle east (almost everybody) to Wisconsin (working stiffs), from revolutionary america (the american aristocrats) to tsarist russia (the surfs), is just looking for dignity and pursuit of happiness. This compartmentalization is just stupid and wrong, and is more a statement of the source of the problem than the solution. Who deserves what? Indeed that is the question, and Mr. Klein offers less than no answer.

  • swissArmyBrainBETA

    like a starving street dog, stuart somehow finds this .001oz meat-needle in the haystack of hillarious b.s.

  • wagedronenumber9

    Hi Joe Klein.

    My dad was on one of those over payed janitors you wrote about in your first Hemlock post, he worked as custodian/bus driver in class C school district in up state NY and was the head custodian by the time he retired.

    My first reaction to your first post was a big screw you because now that he is terminally sick (and lives in a country where there is no national health insurance) he is able to get great care because the state picks up most of the bills. He never made a fortune working for the school district so lord knows where he’d be without the medical insurance that he gets.

    After reading your second post, I’m not sure if you understand that the there is a difference between the civil servant’s union, which my dad was in, and the teacher’s union which the teacher’s are in. It seems to me that you tend to mix them together for the sake or your argument. They are two different entities.

    I was always under the impression that teaching wasn’t a job but a profession that required the acquisition of knowledge and that through experience one gained the ability to better transmit it students. I’m sure if you took a survey that most teachers would tell you that actual classroom experience made them better teachers.

    Because of having a dad who worked in a school system I know that there is a lot of politicking that goes on in a school.You seem to have a lot of confidence in
    school superintendents to make the right choices for the school districts. I’m not so sure about it. You talk about teachers hanging on and being burned out, I’d argue that this also applies to school administrators as well. And, being a good teacher doesn’t necessarily mean that the school superintendent values them.

    And, I hope you know that school superintendents are separate from both the janitors and the teachers when it comes to negotiating salaries with the school boards.
    And they can be career driven people who are more interested in their own careers than the needs of the school district they are employed by.

    This idea of merit pay for teachers looks good on a paper, but I’m not so sure how it flies in reality. The problem is that every school district is different because of size and tax bases. If you want to create a merit pay system for teachers it’s easy to see that maybe the richer school systems will start sucking up the better teachers who will follow the money. Do we want that?

    It seems to me that this merit pay idea is a top down one solution fits all idea that doesn’t take into account the big differences that are between all the different sized school districts there are in the country.

    The whole idea behind tenure is to get teachers stable and secure and invested in the community where they work. Don’t you think stability is an important part of education? I really think you should go and look at the graduation rates by area in the US. I’d think you’d find that suburban and rural graduation rates tend to double the rates of the inner city schools. I think that anyone who talks about the problems of education in the US should understand this first. Education seems to be working in the hinterlands, which I think maybe points out that the problem in the inner city schools isn’t the teaching.

    As for comparing education rates between countries, I don’t think that a culture that spends a lot of time and energy complaining about educational elitism should expect to rate as high with countries who don’t.

  • sacredh

    2thirdsrocks, there were two teachers that I talked into sex but neither of them even came close to instigating the affairs. I could talk almost anybody into anything. I manipulated them. It wasn’t as if they were predators or looking to corrupt students. I was over 6′ tall when I was 12 and by the time I was a senior at 17, I was out for anything I could get. If anything, they were the victims. They should have known better and there are teachers (or anyone else out there regardless of their profession that prey on the young) but there are also people like me out there looking to seduce the vulnerable.
    .
    I mixed feelings when it comes to stories about inappropriate liasons between students and teachers. I knew girls in high school that set their sights on teachers and some were successful. They went after them with single minded deterimination. Sometimes the temptation is too great. Yes, they shouldn’t do it and yes, it’s unprofessional, but sh!t happens. People are fallible.

  • http://2thirdsrocks.wordpress.com 2thirdsrocks

    Oh I’ll agree with that. I’ve always said a lot of those teacher student affair scandals were a bit overblown. You’re right , they are human.
    .
    When I was 21 I had a 17 yr. old girlfriend. I even had her fathers permission to marry her. She dumped me.

  • sacredh

    “When I was 21 I had a 17 yr. old girlfriend. I even had her fathers permission to marry her. She dumped me.”
    .
    When I was 34 I briefly dated a young lady of 18. She lived just a few doors down the road and had been trying to get me in the sack since she was 15. I always told her to come back when she was 18. She did. On her 18th birthday. I had told her parents several times that she was flashing me (she was stacked) and propositioning me. They told me to be careful because she was wild thing!

  • Paul-no not that one

    swissArmyBrain-
    .
    I don’t disagree with your frustration with two commenters.
    .
    Imagine our frustration with the many posts JK has where he makes his anti-union case. Usually baldly, on occasion as with TFA he doesn’t have the courage of his convictions and backdoors it.
    .
    Also please note my comment-frankly rare around these threads about Walker-was about what is actually happening in Wisconsin.

  • http://2thirdsrocks.wordpress.com 2thirdsrocks

    Wow. I thought I was bad. I’m almost 51, my fiancee is 10 yrs. younger. Ain’t got nothing on you though.

  • Paul-no not that one

    Heh I’m with 2/3.
    .
    I’m 47 and come July she will be 40. I told her I may have to trade her in for 2 20 year olds.
    .
    Man she has NO sense of humor sometimes.

  • farstomp

    ‘but even those who’ve been caught commiting crimes and hitting on students’

    I really hate that Joe wrote that. It’s fairly obvious that those are the types of teachers ejected most quickly from their jobs.

    I would argue that it is the somewhat underperforming, sort of just meandering through their jobs teachers that are the real problem as regards to public teacher effectiveness. These people are far more detrimental on a long term scale than the obvious criminal offenses that show up on the front page news.

  • sacredh

    I’m almost 56 and my wife is 2 years younger. I took 17 years off between wives. I’ve known her since she was 15. I should have saved myself alot of trouble and married her back when we were young. I was best man at her previous wedding and she was a bridesmaid at my first one. I was dating my first wife and her at the same time back then. I decided on her cousin because my wife now was such a knockout back then that I didn’t think I could keep her. I always figured she’d wind up with a doctor or a lawyer. Maybe the biggest mistake of my life was not asking her then. I think we’re a non-musical John and Yoko. We’re the same people with different plumbing. The only minus is that I’m over a foot taller than her.

  • formerlyjames

    Thanks for pointing out another inanity that I missed in my rushed reading. What misplaced slop.

  • farstomp

    And, perhaps the unions allow those teachers to persist.

    I’m sure someone would argue that the private sector is better here because they are able to make more effective judgements on performance, but then…

    What is a great way to measure performance in teaching?

    A very complicated issue, I’m very open to the argument that you can’t come up with a good qualitative measure to make these decisions on due to all the intangibles.

    BUT, I can also see that argument of, Why shouldn’t we teach our kids EXACTLY what they need to know (standardized reading/math/english etc.)?

  • Paul-no not that one

    “I should have saved myself alot of trouble and married her back when we were young.”
    .
    Not meaning to be serious in a fun little sub thread but…
    .
    There is no way of knowing either one of you would have been mature enough at that age to get through what we get through as we get older.
    .
    Experience makes us better.
    .
    The one of the only two things that getting older brings.
    .
    A) Smarter and 2) you either know someone or know someone who knows someone to (fix the gutters/get us an interview/fix that ticket. You get the idea) help.

  • sacredh

    “Man she has NO sense of humor sometimes.”
    .
    My wife puts me to shame when it comes to a sense of humor.

  • farstomp

    qualitative should say quantitative there

    I should go to bed.

  • Paul-no not that one

    Adding-the maturity part was directed at your wife.
    .
    None of us are sure how much maturing you have gone through sacred- heh.

  • Paul-no not that one

    “My wife puts me to shame when it comes to a sense of humor.”
    .
    To be honest my (recycled) joke was the same set up and delivery but two times worse thus two times more funny.

  • formerlyjames

    A bigger issue is that teachers in the classroom can only do so much. They are charged with a much bigger burden, responsibility and accountability than is reasonable. You can find here and on previous threads mention of home school, charter school, religious parochial school, all of which are a reflection on the home and the family, not the school nor the teacher. People are too ignorant of what a public school teacher does, and too knee jerk in judgement.

  • sacredh

    “Not meaning to be serious in a fun little sub thread but…
    .
    There is no way of knowing either one of you would have been mature enough at that age to get through what we get through as we get older.”
    .
    My wife and I have talked about that many times. Both of us think a marriage back then probably wouldn’t have lasted. I think I’ve led a pretty wild life. She made mine look tame by comparison. I have some good stories. Hers make mine look like I was monk. We were/are such good friends that we’d call each other about our problems even when we were married to other people. I don’t even try to lie to my wife. She knows what I’m going to do before I do.

  • farstomp

    Yes, not to mention the massive selection bias that goes into comparing private to public school performance.

  • sacredh

    “Adding-the maturity part was directed at your wife.”
    .
    It shouldn’t have been. I can’t even count the number of times she’s saved me from myself. She keeps telling me that I might have a high IQ but that I do more stupid sh!t than anyone else she has ever known.

  • Paul-no not that one

    “I have some good stories. Hers make mine look like I was monk.”
    .
    The head spins.
    .
    We all await the new commenter-”mrsacredh” -with baited breath.
    .
    Okay I await.

  • sacredh

    She isn’t interested at all in blogging. She only uses the computer to look up stuff. I have always been a photography buff and have thousands of thousands of photos. When we got married she went through them all and made me burn boxes of them. She had them divided into boxes labeled “Prison”, “Evidence” and “Who the f**k is she?”.

  • stuartzechman

    Thanks so much for the well-supported, reality-based commentary, jwbates.
    .
    Maybe we’ll be able to figure out what is and isn’t good policy, if you continue.

  • http://sinisterbutterfly.wordpress.com/ jwbates

    Just to offer an example: let’s suppose that you are attempting to find the risk factors that lead to low intelligence. There’s plenty of data out there, lots of interpretations, and the “causes” of intelligence are related in complex ways.
    .
    Along comes a colleague who says, “I know! The best predictor of low intelligence is height. Short people are dumb.”
    .
    Well, maybe height has something to do with it, so you crank through the numbers and find that the distribution of height vs. intelligence scores among adults is exactly the same as the distribution of intelligence scores among adults.
    .
    You can easily reject the short and dumb hypothesis, even without understanding the rest of the risk factors.

  • textee

    Check out these latest photos of those worthless, grossly overpaid, government frauds/morons/pieces of sh!t/blood-sucking parasites in Wisconsin: http://michellemalkin.com/2011/02/19/photo-gallery-what-big-labor-protesters-are-teaching-kids-language-warning/

    Note how none of the photos or videos have appeared on or in any of their identically minded political advocacy groups, e.g., Time magazine, ABC, NBC, CBS, PBS, CNN, A-Mess-NBC,National Peoples Radio, the New York Times-Democrat, the Washington Post-Democrat, the Associated (with terrorists) Press, Sports Illustrated, ESPN, ESPN 2, ESPN News, ESPN Radio, ESPN Deportes, ESPN The Magazine, US Weekly, Oprah, et al.

    Also, check out this video of some so-called “physician” who gave out bogus, fraudulent “sick notes” to those worthless pieces of crap.

  • textee

    Sorry, here is the link for the video of that so-called “physician” who was giving out “sick notes” to those worthless, grossly overpaid, pieces of crap: http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2011/02/028411.php

  • liberalmeltdown

    OMG, two posts in two days talking common sense on union public employe pensions. Heads are exploding all over rainbow land.
    .
    And a example from freeinpa? What’s the world coming to?
    .
    26, now you are living the dream: cutting legislatures benefits. We tried to get a ballot measure in CA to make the legislature part time. That would be fantastic. But, you can’t get the GOP in CA to support it. The state doesn’t need the hundreds of nanny state laws passed by these idiots every year. A full time legislature “has to get something done, harummf, the work of the people.” It makes them feel self important. Like the line in Blazing Saddles: “We have to protect our phoney baloney jobs here, gentlemen! We must do something about this immediately! Immediately!”
    .
    These fools just want their name on a bill. It’s about saying look at me I’m a big state lawmaker. We had one fool try to ban mylar balloons. Then there is the budget game that they play every year. I say make them part time; they won’t have time to pass laws we don’t need and they will have to come to the table ready to work on a budget, not play games.
    .
    Salary: under $50,000 for part time work.

  • swissArmyBrainBETA

    yeah, your original comment was an important news update. sorry, and thanks. prompted a fcbk status that is going to bring all kinds of hate my way. lol all my friends are far right.

  • pintortwo

    “(Dick Armey’s) FreedomWorks received $12 million… from Koch family foundations. Using tax records… Koch-controlled foundations gave out $196 million from 1998 to 2008, much of it to conservative causes and institutions. That figure doesn’t include $50 million in Koch Industries lobbying and $4.8 million in campaign contributions by its political action committee…”
    -link

  • http://sinisterbutterfly.wordpress.com/ jwbates

    Looks like some data regarding staff departures can be found here: http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2010/2010353.pdf. It’s a mixed bag of conclusions, and they unfortunately do not include the raw data that I would need to perform the above-mentioned analysis, but here’s a worthy point:
    .
    In the year studied, 7.3% of public school teachers left teaching. About half of those did so for “personal reasons”.
    .
    That stupid “teachersunionsexposed” website didn’t mention that statistic. That’s 1 out of every 13 teachers just giving it up, every year. How many lawyers or doctors do that?
    .
    It’s worth reading the whole report.

  • swissArmyBrainBETA

    might be the worst reform idea ive ever seen. i’d love to vote for a queen elizabeth style single w/ a life 100% devoted to public service. no spouse, no kids, no life.

  • liberalmeltdown

    Can we get a cleanup on page one? I think several heads exploded…
    .
    As a former union employee, not public, private sector, I see absolutely no reason to have unionized government employees. Nobody represents those that will have to pay for the politician’s pandering to the unions, and both sides are corrupt little hoes.
    .
    Get this straight: First and foremost, unions represent themselves and their own jobs first. They will go to any lengths to protect that money coming in, and it is a ton of money. Paying off a few politicians will a few million is what they do best.
    .

  • formerlyjames

    former union employee, can you make any sense beyond that? why were you in this socialist, communist, nazi (readers, I am aware of the ignorance of this label here, just following the right wing page) organization. That is the first question we have. We will get to the rest of your rubbish later. You may not be aware, but you make a seriously ignorant statement. I will waste no more time with you. But no worry, a significant segment of our country is just as ignorant. You have plenty of company.

  • swissArmyBrainBETA

    meh. this is the best i can find but i can’t view the full study because my psu alumni proquest subscription ran out. you can at least see conclusions of a study that attempts to control. and the conclusions are not good for your case.
    .
    http://www.jstor.org/pss/2946669

  • http://sinisterbutterfly.wordpress.com/ jwbates

    Here’s the pdf: http://faculty.smu.edu/millimet/classes/eco7321/papers/hoxby01.pdf
    .
    But here’s a more recent analysis, with better data: http://www.nctq.org/docs/effect_of_teachers'_unions.pdf
    .
    I’m still working through them.

  • textee

    ALERT: Additional videos continue to pour in of the Democrat party handing out fraudulent, bogus “doctor notes” from so-called “physicians” in Wisconsin for those sick in the head, worthless, taxpayer funded, grossly overpaid frauds/morons/blood-sucking parasites (aka public so-called “school”, self-described “teachers”): http://maciverinstitute.com/2011/02/fake-doctors-notes-being-handed-out-at-wisconsin-gov-union-rally/

    Enjoy!

    Bet your last penny that the fraud documented in the video will never be mentioned/shown/heard on ABC, NBC, CBS, PBS, CNN, A-Mess-NBC, NPR, Oprah, ESPN, ESPN 2, ESPN News, ESPN Deportes, the New York Times-Democrat, the Washington Post-Democrat, the Associated (with terrorists) Press, Time magazine, Sports Illustrated, et al.

  • hippooath

    ultra left?
    WTF does that even mean? Seriously pretend doctor earl…

  • http://sinisterbutterfly.wordpress.com/ jwbates

    OK: the most significant finding in Lovenheim’s more recent paper was the discovery of significant measurement error in the COG data used in Hoxby’s work.
    .
    Using the more fine-grained data he collected, his conclusions bolster my argument quite a bit, although it must be stressed that his data set is necessarily constrained to those states where he was able to collect accurate information about union membership, all three of which were “duty-to-bargain” states.
    .

  • http://sinisterbutterfly.wordpress.com/ jwbates

    From Lovenheim’s abstract:

    …I find teachers’ unions have no impact on teacher pay or per-student district expenditures, but they increase teacher employment by about 5 percent. This employment increase is offset by enrollment increases in unionized districts, causing unions to have little effect on class sizes. I also estimate education production functions using high school dropout rates and find no net effect of teachers’ unions on this attainment measure….

    .
    Now it’s time for me to take my sleepy pills and curl up with a box of tissues.

  • hippooath

    “Paying off a few politicians will a few million is what they do best.”
    .
    What exactly are the companies and right leaning rich people who do the same to politicians?
    .
    Seems like you don’t mind that? But it’s somehow a mortal sin or blow to our system if Unions does it?
    .
    That’s a pretty nice double standard.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    As for comparing education rates between countries, I don’t think that a culture that spends a lot of time and energy complaining about educational elitism should expect to rate as high with countries who don’t.

    For the win!

    Anyone who actually wants to learn in this country should have no trouble doing so. The worst teacher in the world can’t prevent it from happening. But if you don’t want to learn, what could be easier than blaming your teacher for your failure. So much for the great “self-reliance” that everyone like to pay lip-service to…..

  • http://tisias.wordpress.com tisias

    guys, I hate to be the PITA to say this but
    aren’t schools for the kids?

    Beyond all the red tape and the union arguing, the government’s sole purpose for having schools is to educate children and successfully integrate them into society and the military/college/workforce.

    It’s not about test scores.
    It’s not about unions.
    It’s definitely not about having a front for the public sector.

    It’s about the kids.

  • liberalmeltdown

    Swiss, if you want a nanny just advertise.
    .
    Texas has a part time legislature. They are also creating the most jobs. Coincidence? I think not.

  • liberalmeltdown

    Oh no, more common sense. The invaders from rainbow land can’t take it.
    .

  • sue_n

    Excuse me, but mostly what our part-time legislature has created is a $27 billion deficit that will most likely end up gutting our public school system.
    .
    We are also the state that plays fast and loose with our history/social studies curriculum for political reasons and that has one of the highest drop-out rates in the nation. And, no, you can’t blame the teachers unions because collective bargaining just doesn’t exist here. What you can blame is our part-time legislature, which doesn’t give a rat’s @ss about education.
    .
    Oh, and all those wonderful jobs Gov. Goodhair and his cronies have supposedly created? Yeah, they’re mostly minimum wage.
    .
    Seriously, you people need to stop pointing at Texas and trying to use us as some kind of “success story.” We’re going down in flames here, and our legislature lit the fire.

  • http://grapemusing.blogspot.com/ grape_crush

    Klein pontificated:

    But the public unions have set about, largely unimpeded, to build walls (work rules) that constrict government innovation and ceilings (opposition to merit pay) that make it less likely that the most talented professionals will remain in public service.

    Wait a minute, I think I’ve heard this argument before…let’s change that around a bit:

    But the SEC ha[s] set about, largely unimpeded, to build walls (regulatory rules) that constrict financial innovation and strict enforcement make[s] it less likely that the most talented professionals will remain in the financial services industry.

    I mean, if anything, the relationship between the financial services industry and SEC regulators is every bit as incestuous as the one between a public employee union and a government org.

    How about this one:

    But in creating the PPACA, the government ha[s] set about, largely unimpeded, to build walls (of regulation) that constrict healthcare innovation and ceilings (coverage requirements) that make it less likely that the most talented professionals will remain in working in medicine.

    Doctors’ groups and healthcare companies who take Medicare payments hire lobbyists to tilt legislation in their favor. Maybe we should end that as well?

    I can probably come up with versions involving government contractors (especially military contractors), the FDA, gun rights, and so on.

    Point is that we hear this same weak-argument-passing for conventional wisdom in its different flavors whenever fools, hucksters, and mendicants have an issue with worker’s protections and rights, attempts at regulation, or anything else that might even remotely threaten some industry’s bottom line…

    …Which is one of the things all this is really about…The other, deeper problem I have with this is that unions and educators are (generally) traditionally strong Dem supporters. Break them, and you’ve broken the Democratic party…and support for progressive policy – stuff like Social Security and food safety and national parks and a lot of other stuff we Americans really do like – evaporates.

    Wake up.

  • apr2563

    swiss: We are making comments but, along with others, linking to data that we hope Joe will use to broaden his perspective.

  • apr2563

    Actually there are progressive blogs like Daily Kos that are collecting money to help out. Go ahead and contribute. They have collected over $83,000.
    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/19/947233/-Voices-from-Wisconsin

  • apr2563

    Swiss instead of characterizing my comments try reading them. See 1.11 and 1.13. I try to link to supporting information as much as possible. Read my posts under other threads. I think you underestimate my contributions.

  • apr2563

    Thanks for sharing the photos. It is great to see the police and firefighters particiipating. The Gov didn’t include them in his union vendetta. However, they are participating in the protest anyway.
    .
    If people want to contribute to the legislators who are and protestors, you can do so here:
    .
    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/19/947233/-Voices-from-Wisconsin

  • liberalmeltdown

    41.3 Texas unemployment rate 8%, budget deficit 15 billion for the first time. 9 billion in rainy day fund. Hundreds of companies moving to Texas from California.
    .
    California unemployment rate 12%, budget deficit 25 billion and that’s after budget deficits for the last 4 or 5 years of billions most of which were just paid for by borrowing billions. NO rainy day fund, billions in unfunded debt obligations. 500 billion to unfunded state pensions and benefits. Hundreds of companies moving to Texas from California. Plus hundreds of nanny state laws. California legislatures get lots of perks, a daily allowance of $142 on top of being one of the highest paid in the country. And what do we get? More spending and higher taxes.

    .
    Oh and former assembly speaker’s sons get away with murder.
    .
    http://www.fox5sandiego.com/news/kswb-victims-dad-mulls-lawsuit-over-01122011,0,7152722.story
    .
    SAN DIEGO — The father of slain Mesa College student Luis Santos said that he is strongly considering suing former Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger and the state for reducing the sentence of one of his son’s killers…
    .
    Nunez, son of former Assembly Speaker Fabian Nunez, pleaded guilty to voluntary manslaughter and two counts of assault with a deadly weapon, resulting from a knife fight near San Diego State in 2008 in which Luis Santos was killed.
    .
    .
    The little darling Nunez only stabbed two others, but he didn’t manage to kill them. He’s really a sweet kid and a good democrat.
    .

  • apr2563

    Okay you guys. Here is some cougar perspective. My first husband of 18 years was 1 year older than me. My 2nd ex-husband, also of 18 years, is 12 years younger than me. When I was 39 I had a fling with a 25 year old who was the brother of the lead singer for the group America. As a single woman, I always found younger men more interesting and certainly they have more stamina (for dancing that is).
    .
    I am done with all that now. I don’t have the time to invest another 18 years. But, the memories are mostly great.

  • apr2563

    wagedronenumber9, thank you for your important contribution to Joe’s superficial understanding of union representation. Also, I wish your father well. I am sure he has been a wonderful contributer to his family and community.

  • apr2563

    liberal, as a Californian I hope the victims father is successful in his suit. A Rep Gov giving a pardon to a Dem Speaker was travesty. It was the good old boy network to the extreme,

  • liberalmeltdown

    41.3 Texas unemployment rate 8%, budget deficit 15 billion for the first time. 9 billion in rainy day fund. Hundreds of companies moving to Texas from California.
    .
    California unemployment rate 12%, budget deficit 25 billion and that’s after budget deficits for the last 4 or 5 years of billions most of which were just paid for by borrowing billions. NO rainy day fund, billions in unfunded debt obligations. 500 billion to unfunded state pensions and benefits. Hundreds of companies moving to Texas from California. Plus hundreds of nanny state laws. California legislatures get lots of perks, a daily allowance of $142 on top of being one of the highest paid in the country. And what do we get? More spending and higher taxes.

    .
    Oh and former assembly speaker’s sons get away with murder.
    .
    http://www.fox5sandiego.com/news/kswb-victims-dad-mulls-lawsuit-over-01122011,0,7152722.story
    .
    SAN DIEGO — The father of slain Mesa College student Luis Santos said that he is strongly considering suing former Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger and the state for reducing the sentence of one of his son’s killers…
    .
    Nunez, son of former Assembly Speaker Fabian Nunez, pleaded guilty to voluntary manslaughter and two counts of assault with a deadly weapon, resulting from a knife fight near San Diego State in 2008 in which Luis Santos was killed.
    .
    .
    The little darling Nunez only stabbed two others, but he didn’t manage to kill them. He’s really a sweet kid and a good democrat. And, his daddy has connections
    .

  • liberalmeltdown

    Sorry for the double post. Well the good ole boy network it what we are facing all around. The Rs and Ds are interchangeable here. There’s not much difference. You may think so, you get thrown the Red Herring of social positions, but the California legislature has one agenda. Tax and spend.
    .
    Arnold is married to a Kennedy. He supports the job killing Global Warming bill. It’s not the letter, it’s the substance behind the letter R or D.
    .
    As for the suit, I hope that the father wins also. The attack by Nunez and his buddies was vicious.

  • wagedronenumber9

    Hi apr2563 @ 38.1

    Thanks, pops is hanging in there although he does have to go to the hospital two or three times a week. If it wasn’t for his health package he wouldn’t be able to do it. I pity those who go through this without one.

    Hi Paul Dirks @ 44

    Let’s make it a rout….. How is it possible that our country is so exceptional when our educational system is so stinky???

    The greatest country ever in the history of man, it delivers healthy care to its citizens at double the cost of any other country with much lower results!

  • http://iamavoter.wordpress.com iamavoter

    I, too, am very tired of the teacher bashing. The public is looking for an easy fix to a complex problem. A small percentage of the problem may be a bad teacher once in a while. But the real problem with public education is structural, and the public does not want to face the changes that would be necessary to make significant advancements in student learning.

    We need year round schools so that learning is maintained for our poorest children and our children who do not speak English as their first language. We need a longer school day with after school assistance for homework and tutoring for those who are behind. There is so much to teach and fitting it into a traditional school day is fine for those who are on or above grade-level. It is highly inadequate for those who are behind or who are learning our language at the same time as they are trying to learn grade level content.

    These changes require money and sacrifice on the part of the public. A mindset change away from the traditional long summer break is needed. Enrichment camps and programs traditionally offered in the summer need to be altered so that children have access to enrichment during short breaks throughout the year.

    Charter schools are also needed as laboratories to test new learning techniques. However, these schools need to reflect the population in the area so that new ideas are tried on a student group that mirrors the traditional classroom. Too often, charter schools become skewed and the population is wealthier and whiter that the general population of a diverse community. It is not hard to have success with supportive parents and on and above grade level children who enjoy a middle to upper income status. We need to find ways to reach our neediest students and too many charter schools shirk this responsibility.

    Difficult changes need to be made to improve student learning. It is unfortunate that too few really want to look at the tough choices ahead. Instead, teacher bashing is in vogue and it seems to be a fine way to look like you are concerned without having to face inconvenient truths.

  • newfreedomblog

    That sure is a great listing of Conservative contributors you posted from the ultra-left Media Matters pintortwo.
    .
    Problem is, it doesn’t say anything. “General Fund”?? What is that?
    .
    The thing that Media Matters does so well is to post garbage on it’s site, makes claims that the information is “true to our knowledge”, and then takes out of context what the information or the person says.
    .
    Then good little liberals like pintortwo grab onto it and post it as a “link” someplace, and shout out “The Kochs are behind it all, see it says so right here on Media Matters”.
    .
    LOL. Garbage in, garbage out. That is exactly what it all says.
    .
    So to my point. Define from those spreadsheets exactly where it says that “the Koch Brothers are the financial arm of the Tea Party” or anything close to it pintortwo. Can you?
    .
    Show us where the “Koch Brothers gave 12 million to Dick Armey’s Freedom Works”. Can you? Links please.
    .
    I can’t seem to find ANYWHERE on ANY site including Media Matters where there is any list, factual data or anything that says anything close to your claim.
    .
    Are you lying, pintortwo? Are you simply posting garbage from places like Media Matters making claims which are nothing but total bull-crap and lies?

  • newfreedomblog

    More money at the problem will not solve anything. What will solve it, holding people accountable.
    .
    Stop protecting the teachers who are simply not doing their jobs anymore. As a matter of fact, teachers haven’t done their job now for over a generation.
    .
    Abolish the Unions, institute merit pay and practices for teachers, hold parents accountable and make them get involved in their children’s education. If the parents do not, then make them pay to fund their own children’s education. Quit spending money on kids whose parents will not be responsible for them.
    .
    If kids do not want to devote the necessary time into their education. After they reach a certain age put them into a trade school, teach them a trade and put them to work.
    .
    Problem solved.

  • newfreedomblog

    ‘Jasmine Revolution’
    .
    Even China is now not immune to protests.
    .
    BEIJING – Jittery Chinese authorities wary of any domestic dissent staged a concerted show of force Sunday to squelch a mysterious online call for a “Jasmine Revolution” apparently modeled after pro-democracy demonstrations sweeping the Middle East.
    Authorities detained activists, increased the number of police on the streets, disconnected some mobile phone text messaging services and censored Internet postings about the call to stage protests at 2 p.m. in Beijing, Shanghai and 11 other major cities.
    .
    The campaign did not gain much traction among ordinary citizens and the chances of overthrowing the Communist government are slim, considering Beijing’s tight controls over the media and Internet. A student-led, pro-democracy movement in 1989 was crushed by the military and hundreds, perhaps thousands, were killed.
    .
    On Sunday, police took at least three people away in Beijing, one of whom tried to lay down white jasmine flowers while hundreds of people milled about the protest gathering spot, outside a McDonald’s on the capital’s busiest shopping street. In Shanghai, police led away three people near the planned protest spot after they scuffled in an apparent bid to grab the attention of passers-by.
    .
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110220/ap_on_re_as/as_china_jasmine_revolution

  • newfreedomblog

    Union leaders offer concessions
    .
    Top leaders of two of Wisconsin’s largest public employee unions announced they are willing to accept the financial concessions called for in Walker’s plan, but will not accept the loss of collective bargaining rights.
    .
    Mary Bell, president of the Wisconsin Education Association Council, and Marty Beil, executive director of AFSCME Council 24, said in a conference call with reporters that workers will do their fair share to narrow Wisconsin’s budget gap.
    .
    Walker’s plan calls for nearly all state, local and school employees to pay half the costs of their pensions and at least 12.6 percent of their health care premiums. That would save $30 million by June 30 and $300 million over the next two years, the governor has said.
    .
    The measure also would prohibit most unionized public employees, except local police and fire fighters and the State Patrol, from bargaining on issues besides wages. Wage hikes could be negotiated only if they don’t exceed the consumer price index.
    .
    “We want to say loud and clear — it is not about those concessions,” Bell said. “For my members, it’s about retaining a voice in their professions.”

    .
    http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/article_a05349be-3be1-11e0-b0a1-001cc4c002e0.html
    .
    Times, they are a changin’!! Next up, Ohio, Virginia, Pennsylvania, and then ALL across America!!

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Try to fire a teacher in NYC. They have a prostitute on the payroll.”
    .
    Check your facts

    .
    “When you’re a teacher, you’re a role model for these kids. You have to set a good example,” teacher Howard Titlebaum said.

    The Department of Education said the case has been referred to the head of the Office of Special Investigations, Richard Condon.

    According to Petro’s blog postings, she was not working as a prostitute while employed by the Department of Education.”
    .
    http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2010/09/27/bronx-teacher-reassigned-after-admitting-sex-worker-past/
    .
    You, most likely, are unaware of who the Office of Special Investigations are:
    .

    The Office of Special Investigations investigates allegations of improper and unlawful behavior, including corporal punishment and verbal abuse against students, to help ensure a safe and secure learning environment for New York City’s students, staff members, and parents.

    .
    http://schools.nyc.gov/Offices/GeneralCounsel/Investigative/OSI/default.htm
    .
    The real story:
    .
    Woman who successfully taught kindergarten for three years is like to be prosecuted for lying about her past as a prostitute and is no longer teaching.
    .
    Truth is hard for you to understand, isn’t, it Paullie?

  • 53_3

    paulejb is about as well informed about that Master Statesemen / Black Draft Dodger as he is about Malcolm X.
    .
    It’s the adaption procedure, I think afguy.
    .
    They should screen the parents before letting ‘em adopt…

  • http://iamavoter.wordpress.com iamavoter

    To newfreedomblog:

    So how do you propose to evaluate parental responsibility? Who will set the standard? Who will decide which children are deserving of an education and which are not? What about the parents who are working two jobs and are still learning English? What about the parents who have no education or money themselves? What will the kids who have those “irresponsible” parents do when we quit investing to educate them them?

    Students need basic skills to be successful in trade schools. Particularly with our advances in technology, trade jobs require a strong, basic education.

    I am all in favor of holding every stakeholder accountable, from teachers, to parents, to community members, to politicians. I am also in favor of each and every student in America receiving a quality education regardless of their circumstances. Our country’s success demands it.

    With all due respect, I do not see how you have solved the problem.

  • 53_3

    Sorry, rusty:
    .
    The Teabaggers havn’t been able to stap on a large enough “audience”:
    http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/02/19/wisconsin.budget/index.html

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    FTW!
    .
    Our children will come home from school speaking with Indian accents and asking that Mom’s put much more curry and other spices in their lunch.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Most recently, look at the Sanitation workers non-recognized strike in NYC during the most recent major snow storm. While there was not an “official” strike called for, they continued to use their “united” numbers to drastically reduce the capability to remove the snow causing death as a result for a few.”
    .
    Really, Rusty?
    .
    Look through Google.
    .
    This is an advanced search over the past 30 days.
    .
    So far in almost eight weeks the investigations have found nothing.
    .
    You, once again, show what a knee jerk right wing reaction is.
    .
    Since then, four storms have been cleared very well by the department of sanitation.
    .
    This is the worst Winter for snow since 1925!
    .
    The real news story should be Climate change causes worst Winter since 1925 and slash and burn policies crippled NYC department of Sanitation but, unfortunately, union bashing is the style of today.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Earl,
    .
    You are aware of contagious diseases, so, please, just because you suffer from severe dysentery, please do not spill it all over this blog.
    .
    I was struck by the intelligence and seriousness of this post up until your useless remarks.
    .
    Please put a cork in your ass and stop posting this dysentery all over before it turns into one of your moronic and time wasting flame wars.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    jwbates,
    .
    Your desire and ability to bring facts to this discussion is amazing and much appreciated.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    See 16.6.
    .
    As you can see, Two thirds is already suffering from a bowl related disorder due to the contagiousness of dysentery.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “When a poster get’s snarky and starts feminizing another posters screen name it’s a sure sign that he or she has lost the argument.”
    .
    So, what does it mean when a poster changes your name to a fictional Italian gangster?
    .
    http://www.cheatb.com/watch/152462/

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “his anger is consuming him, almost to a point of incoherence.”
    .

    Don’t believe it? Wait and see. Your resolution for this new year should be SERIOUS dieting. You are becoming morbidly obese, and this doctor can give you a whole myriad of reasons why this is detrimental to your health. Come on, , for the COUNTRY’S sake, because you will end up costing us ALL more money. You refuse to buy insurance, so this means your impending diabetes (if not already prevalent) will increase your myopia, raise your blood pressure and ultimately put your garrulous, gluttonous body into heart failure and the tax payer will bear the burden of saving your worthless hide. Yes, indeed…ALL mouth and totally incapable of escaping his miserable, lonely existence….I really do feel some empathy (actually, not much) for you…no self respecting person should end up living your kind of life.
    show the magnitude of their astonishing ignorance., I would not try and influence you in any shape, form or fashion. You are an embittered old man with a really nasty disposition and spend HOURS on end camped out on swampland because you have NOTHING better to do. You are both a drain on society and make NO viable contribution whatever…very typical of your liberal mindset, expecting others to do what you are incapable of doing…an honest days work. Get a life, both of you. You will get no further response from me, because unlike the two of you, I have very important work to do and my first case begins at 7 am. (not to rub it in 53, but I made WAY more than 200k last year and I am only 39) Just goes to show what a good education and high motivation can do.
    Just to visualize a roly poly fat blob trying to climb over the ropes (he’s too fat to go under them) is downright hilarious! I see you are camped out on swampland as usual. Most self respecting Americans are at work now, but then again, NO ONE would ever call you respectable, would they, you freeloader. I would like to trade a few more insults with you, fat boy, but my students are waiting for me to make rounds. Have a good, nonproductive day, you miserable loser.
    you are not only fat, but look like a pervert she saw posted on the wall at our post office. Could it be you, fatboy? I wouldn’t doubt it for a minute. Your hair keeps disappearing, fatpatrick…you do know this could be indicative of a circulatory disorder don’t you? There is a good chance you are impotent, or soon will be and would also explains why women avoid any relationship with you (other than just being downright creepy) Give it up, doughboy, you are simply an ugly loser……period!
    Well, jerkface, so much for friendly advice and btw, if you think genetic markers are the most reliable way to determine diabetes, you are in for one heck of a surprise. Massive weight gain (and that is you, fat boy) IMMEDIATELY raises the red flag on diabetic suspicion. Now, for the laugh of the day ” I have no trouble getting women’s phone numbers”…. RIGHT……and pigs can fly, too. Obese, myopic, bald and ugly…..I’m sure the ONLY women you get, fatpatrick, are the times square hookers you buy with your unemployment checks and I would imagine they work very hard to suppress their gag reflexes when they agree to give you a quickie. What a disappointment you must have been to your parents….you have FAILURE written all over your ugly mug. Now go back to being unproductive because you do it so well. I am done with your astonishing stupidity.

    I think a cage full of Monkeys could have done a better job and it probably would have made more sense.
    Who, in their right mind, would have left the insurance companies in charge of allocating health care and
    …..this poorly designed legislation needs to be redesigned, retooled and completely redone by mature adults with more than “victory” etched in their foolish minds.
    Go back to smoking your happy weed, perhaps it will make you forget the pain you may be experiencing and be sure to thank your democratic legislators for getting you into this mess.
    Yes, indeed, a few more entitlement programs and we will soon be on the road to recovery.
    Actually, the commander in “thief” stands guilty of stealing one of the principles providing a foundation for our country. A nation RESPONSIVE to the will of the people.

    they would like NOTHING better.
    I, too, am amazed at the arrogance these people possess. They are SO quick in telling anyone who listens just how smart they are, but the reality of fact escapes them every time.
    Delusional daydreamers would be an appropriate description for most of them.
    Not exactly “listening to the will of the people”, is it,? Nor does it serve the people in the manner it was intended. Constitutional? probably not, but our commander in thief could care less. He owns this monstrosity and it could well be his Waterloo in 2012. (we can only hope!)
    Extremely appropriate, I would say. A bill written by comedians, reduced to a comic book format.
    It is the ONLY way their democratic constituents have ANY chance of understanding. (that they have been royally screwed)
    In their haste to proclaim “victory” at any cost, they have saddled the American public with a mish mash of legislation that leaves millions uninsured and drives up the premiums for everyone else.
    I suggest “falsepromisecare” or “weliedcare” or perhaps “Obamasuckscare” or “keepdreamingcare”, or even “insurance companieswincare”.
    Finally, “itwontworkcare” and I think all provide a better description of this moronic legislation dumped on the American public by power hungry democratic politicians.
    I see has cashed his welfare check and once again, is camped out on swampland being non productive (as usual)
    You give entitlement a bad name I know people with your condition, paranoid personality disorder, that manage to remain gainfully employed.
    Are you just lazy?
    Yes indeed, a textbook explanation of PPD and you DO know that you consistently display at least six of those symptoms, don’t you? Time to seek help, this handicap can ruin your life if left untreated.
    I notice you have lost some more hair and gained a few more pounds. Your jowl’s are pendulous and actually jiggle when you talk.
    Look on the bright side, though…you just might parlay those extra pounds into a seasonal Santa job at Macy’s!
    Oh, how funny. Just how patronizing can be. smooooth.
    Here is what I find hard to believe, that an old, pot smoking druggie like you actually taught our children at one point in your psychedelic career.There is no estimating the amount of damage you inflicted with your narrow minded perspective on life and world events. I would imagine your license was suspended when your history of drug use finally unfolded.
    your ignorance is appalling.
    You have already stated that you DO NOT plan to purchase insurance, so, as usual, you will continue to scam the system.
    but you fall all over your fat self in trying to make it wrong.
    If you actually PAID taxes, you would understand the concerns we have about Obamacare.
    Trouble dealing with truth,? If a different perspective is offered, it obviously makes you uncomfortable….but crapping on the furniture?
    Come on, you are better than this. Don’t be so rigid
    What have YOU accomplished in life except sponge off the taxpayer? (Just like your son, you really did a lousy job of raising this cretin, you know)
    you breezed right by the mental retardation part.
    Take you away from google and you would find your self totally incapable of communicating. You are a social misfit, a loner and a totally forgettable character.
    Failed student
    Failed taxi driver
    Army and police department reject (I suspect mental issues)
    Failed security guard
    Failed rental booking agent (because he sits on his fat butt all day and refuses to work)
    And most disheartening, failed at relationships. (any number of reasons here, but most notably, lousy personality, obesity and acute paranoia)
    Face up to it, you are simply a loser.
    And you, , are not biased, hostile and narrow minded one bit, are you? You NEVER unleash a barb, too.
    You are what you are, a washed up old pot smoking hippy with a nasty disposition (and mouth) and I am sure, a completely dull and boring person.
    You are such a dunce I see the conservatives (and some of the liberals) are ripping you to shreds, as usual. You are over matched, fatboy, so why don’t you call it a day and ingest a few more cheeseburgers
    Speaking of history, how long has this strain of paranoia been carried by your family?
    What a MAJOR disappointment you must have been to your parents. A failure at every single undertaking. How sad.
    Facts and logic have reduced to a quivering mass of protoplasm.
    Great job, rdw56, your patience in dealing with this windbag is certainly commendable. The more logic you provide, the more verbose and incoherent he becomes. (typical liberal) When he starts hurling insults, you know you have him on the ropes. It then becomes a matter of out lasting him.
    Once again…outstanding work.
    You have effectively muted their voices with concise precision by bring sound judgment and logical reasoning to refute their liberal ideology.
    No wonder they want you, banished from their playground. is a little testy because conservatives have been raining on the liberal’s little party, The biggest upset of course, is actively challenging their warped and misinformed ideology.
    How dare we, say the ideologues, question their self professed “superior intelligence”, and do this when they
    have mind locked individuals spouting their ignorance in practically every post.
    Sorry, we are not going away. Your political persuasion will have to share the platform and I know this is causing you much angst. Get use to it, or here is a suggestion that is very fond of using…STFU!

    Point well made?? only someone as dumb, or dumber than patrick, would understand his inanity.
    Must be a tough day for a loser like you,…….no, I forgot, May I also say, she is EXACTLY what you deserve.

    .
    LOL
    .
    Earl, the king and lord mayor or angry rants is calling cool, calm and collected 53_3 angry?
    Look, go back to to your job at cleaning the ER.
    .
    You’re not a doctor, a nurse or a paramedic.
    .
    You biography changed you from married but childless (temporarily) to being a dad and from 37 to 39 in one year.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Sorry,
    .
    See 27.2

  • http://estevens43.wordpress.com estevens43

    Joe-
    How much time have you recently spent teaching in a public school classroom on any level? I think that the last time you were in a classroom was as a student, and that was a long time ago.
    It’s interesting how edu-experts such as yourself know that the solution to the problem of poor student performance rests solely with “inept” teaching, agree with Michelle Rhee (classroom experience 3 years), that if only the unions could be legislated out of the process student achievement would soar.
    Well the facts state otherwise as one of the other posters noted.
    So Joe, consider the following: maybe, just maybe, the current cohort of social media addicted students and their parents might be part of the problem.
    PS: I am not a teacher or a union member

  • newfreedomblog

    What? You should take those marbles out of your mouth IQ, then you may make some sense. LOL

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Rusty,
    .
    Your Link includes none of that information.
    .
    Link to the expropriate page or don’t waste our time.

  • newfreedomblog

    Washington wonders why so many angry Americans talk back to the news on their TVs. Here’s why: Federal spending the last two years has exploded. Never mind why. It has. Obama proposes cutting some of that increased spending. The result: Cuts to brag about but still more borrowed spending than before.
    .
    And for his next trick…..
    .
    One inconvenient stat cited by the sage Ed Morrissey: Obama’s own debt commission proposed deficit reductions of $4 trillion (get used to that scary word) over the next decade. Obama’s budget thinks $1.1 trillion is really good.
    .
    Here’s the isolated president’s perception of how painfully the feds need to address their fiscal canyon: “If you’re a family trying to cut back, you might skip going out to dinner, you might put off a vacation.”
    .
    http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2011/02/obama-news-conference.html
    .
    While in other news….
    .

    Michelle Obama Goes Skiing in Colorado
    by KEITH KOFFLER on FEBRUARY 19, 2011, 11:34 AM
    First Lady Michelle Obama is on “a private family trip” in Colorado where she is skiing with daughters Sasha and Malia, according to an administration official.
    .
    “The First Lady and several close friends are chaperoning their children on a ski trip,” the official told the press pool reporter who is following President Obama today.
    .
    Reports coming out of Colorado say she arrived Friday night and is staying at the Sebastian Hotel on Vail Mountain. Rooms start at $605 per night for a room with two queen beds and head north of $2,000 for multi-bedroom suites.

    .
    http://www.whitehousedossier.com/2011/02/19/michelle-obama-skiing-colorado/
    .
    Don’t do as we DO people……gee whiz….DO AS WE SAY
    .
    LOL!!!
    .
    Enjoy!!

  • newfreedomblog

    Fareed Zakaria interview segment with George Soros. Good guy George talks about Glenn Beck. Then in other news, he goes after Obama. I think the old bird is getting confused.
    .
    “Spooky Dude” To The Rescue!!!
    .
    Is this guy creepy or what?? “ah ah….Verold Order…ah ah ah. A Verold Order where China owns it…ah ah ah….dis voould be a more stable Verold”.
    .

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Using tax records, Mayer found that Koch-controlled foundations gave out $196 million from 1998 to 2008, much of it to conservative causes and institutions. That figure doesn’t include $50 million in Koch Industries lobbying and $4.8 million in campaign contributions by its political action committee, putting it first among energy company peers like Exxon Mobil and Chevron. Since tax law permits anonymous personal donations to nonprofit political groups, these figures may understate the case. The Kochs surely match the in-kind donations the Tea Party receives in free promotion 24/7 from Murdoch’s Fox News, where both Beck and Palin are on the payroll.

    The New Yorker article stirred up the right, too. Some of Mayer’s blogging detractors unwittingly upheld the premise of her article (titled “Covert Operations”) by conceding that they have been Koch grantees. None of them found any factual errors in her 10,000 words. Many of them tried to change the subject to George Soros, the billionaire backer of liberal causes. But Soros is a publicity hound who is transparent about where he shovels his money. And like many liberals — selflessly or foolishly, depending on your point of view — he supports causes that are unrelated to his business interests and that, if anything, raise his taxes.

    This is hardly true of the Kochs. When David Koch ran to the right of Reagan as vice president on the 1980 Libertarian ticket (it polled 1 percent), his campaign called for the abolition not just of Social Security, federal regulatory agencies and welfare but also of the F.B.I., the C.I.A., and public schools — in other words, any government enterprise that would either inhibit his business profits or increase his taxes. He hasn’t changed. As Mayer details, Koch-supported lobbyists, foundations and political operatives are at the center of climate-science denial — a cause that forestalls threats to Koch Industries’ vast fossil fuel business. While Koch foundations donate to cancer hospitals like Memorial Sloan-Kettering in New York, Koch Industries has been lobbying to stop the Environmental Protection Agency from classifying another product important to its bottom line, formaldehyde, as a “known carcinogen” in humans (which it is).

    .
    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/29/opinion/29rich.html
    .
    First give people cancer and then donate to a hospital to help people with cancer.
    .
    What wonderful people they are!
    .
    Any more evidence you need, go ahead and ask me.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Earl,
    .
    Not that I expected facts from a janitor at an ER, but, the US is #18 in the industrial world for unions.
    .
    http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/lab_tra_uni_mem-labor-trade-union-membership
    .
    But the US has higher unemployment rates than most of these countries.
    .
    http://www.photius.com/rankings/economy/unemployment_rate_2011_0.html

  • 53_3

    Appearently you hadn’t noticed the relative sizes of the demonstrations noted therein, rusty.
    .
    Do I have to explain everything?
    .
    Ok, spponfed:
    .
    1. The four days of demonstrations all spontaneous, have all exceeded the size of the highly organized Teabagger demonstration by a very wide margin.
    .
    2. See 1.
    .
    3 See 2, after I point out that there is a hint here about political pain for the Teabagger body politic.
    .
    Can you figure it out?

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Textee,
    .
    You prove the fact that paid trolls can be drunk on the job as much as they like.

  • 53_3

    “Far too often, new contracts have been acts of collusion rather than negotiation–with the unions wielding the extremely powerful sledgehammer of campaign contributions and eager bodies to staff phone banks, leaflet and go door to door.”
    .
    By spanky, you hit the nail on the head, Joe!
    .
    Let me correct this:
    .
    “Far too often, new budget bills have been acts of collusion rather than negotiation–with the GOP wielding the extremely powerful sledgehammer of corporate campaign contributions and eager Teabaggers to staff phone banks, leaflet and go door to door.”
    .
    There, fixed it…

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Textee,
    .
    I am surprised at you.
    .
    You, apparently, are sober enough to post a second time, yet are still an incoherent mess.
    .
    Have another shot and when you pass out on the floor, stay there.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Well, Psychiatric meltdown, we now all know the high brow entertainment you enjoy.
    .
    Outside of that, you have succeeded in wasting everybody’s time as usual.

  • 53_3

    I recall that you told paulejb to watch out for the race card being played, and that either I or foghorn would play it.
    .
    A laughed to myself, knowing what you would eventually do, and true to form, rusty, you done went and did it:
    .
    No one here has talked about race except you!
    .
    What’s wrong, rusty? Your hatred get the better of you? As memento noted before, maybe you really have been tilting a bottle of gin above your mouth at an angle significantly greater than 45 degrees.
    .
    Are you that eager to play the race card that you just can’t wait until the appropriate discussion comes up?
    .
    It’s not really necessary, but let it be noted here that you played the race card first…

  • newfreedomblog

    LOL@“highly organized”
    .
    Ah, hate to break it to you Einstein, but the call to action for the Tea Party came out on Saturday. Clearly 3 days post the initial protests by the thugged inspired Unions in Wisconsin.
    .
    Heck even good ‘ol Trumpka and Jesses Jackson didn’t get there until Friday to speak in their native tongue of gibberish.
    .
    Tea Party members came out in force, yesterday. That is why the crowds were so much larger than the previous 3 days.

  • newfreedomblog

    Oh in case anyone doesn’t know it from the past, our dear and illustrious Einstein, IQ53, always plays down any opposition numbers. He has a big camera flying in the sky to prove it too. LOL.
    .
    Glenn Beck rally in Washington, 8/28: Einstein said there were not more than a 100,000 people in support. It was because of “Black Family Reunion” or some crap excuse like that as he is so famous for spinning.
    .
    Think Jesse can get another million man march together again IQ? Oh that’s right, the million man was Farrakhan’s idea. Sorry Jesse.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Rank State 2009 2008 2007
    9 California $58,931 $61,021 $59,948
    25 Texas $48,259 $50,043 $47,548
    .
    So, Texas vs California: You’ll earn less money but that Goddam government won’t git nothin neither.
    .
    I’ll take earn more, but pay taxes, please.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor
  • 53_3

    earljr:
    .
    I note that you havn’t shown up here to yank the lines from my wifes’ arm, much to my disappointment, because she’s dialyzing (entitlement jonesing by your def) as we speak.
    .
    I point out that because you, and others like you, are total whiners:
    .
    This country needs fixing and you are too greedy to help. It’s not even that you can’t spare the money. Hell no. That’s not it, really, it’s this:
    .
    It’s because it’s yours dammit, and you don’t give a floating fart whether people lower down in life’s station have more difficulties than you.
    .
    Your $167k problem was a real tearjerker. But it has now become the country’s problem. You want to balance it on our backs.
    .
    We got a fork in the road. Your way leads to India. My way leads to the greatest country in the world, in which we all share the burden.
    .
    So, to summarize, ok, balance it on our backs, but step up and shoulder some of the pain and discomfort we have to deal with in doing so, after all, we have to:
    .
    Pay your damned freight…

  • newfreedomblog

    Union Operatives at “work”
    .

  • newfreedomblog

    Giving “excuses” for “sick” Teachers.
    .

  • newfreedomblog

    MADISON, Wisc. — As the Tea Party movement and union bosses prepare to clash in Wisconsin, it is worthwhile to keep in mind that many millions of dollars of union members’ dues have been spent to fuel the Democratic Party in past elections. Here’s a breakdown of what some of the top unions donated to the Democratic Party in the 2008 and 2010 election cycles:

    The AFL-CIO, whose president Richard Trumka is orchestrating much of the protests in Madison this week, donated $1.2 million to Democrats in 2008 and $900,000 in 2010.
    .
    The American Federation of State, County and Municipal employees donated $2.6 million to the
    .
    Democrats in 2008 and another $2.6 million in 2010.
    .
    The National Education Association donated $2.3 million to Democrats in 2008 and $2.2 million in 2010.
    .
    The Teamsters union donated $2.4 million to
    Democrats in 2008 and $2.3 million in 2010.
    .
    The SEIU donated $2.6 million to Democrats in 2008 and $1.7 million in 2010.
    .
    The Carpenters and Joiners union donated $2 million to Democrats in 2008 and $2.1 million 2010.
    .
    The Laborers union donated $2.6 million to Democrats in 2008 and $2.2 million in 2010.
    .
    The International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers donated $3.8 million to Democrats in 2008 and $3.2 million in 2010.
    .
    The American Federation of Teachers donated $2.8 million to Democrats in 2008 and $2.7 million in
    .
    The Koch Brothers, what?

    Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2011/02/19/unions-fuel-democratic-party-financially/#ixzz1EWDbmLaY

  • 53_3

    Damn, your so quick to play the race card, rusty!
    .
    Are you that mad at me?
    .
    And, as for that other stuff, a camera in the sky, several cameras in the sky, by an industry-standard remote sensing and surveillance outfit isn’t the best way to estimate crowd size?
    .
    Tell me, is Glenn Beck that infallible?
    .
    la-te-da.
    .
    You’re either drunker, or stupider than usual this morning, rusty.
    .
    That bottle over there on top of Timothy McVeigh’s poster is not wisdom…

  • 53_3

    Note to Swampcritters:
    .
    Please wait until rusty either tires of his morning propaganda barrage or drinks himself to sleep under the table.
    .
    This is a public service announcement.
    .
    Please wait…

  • newfreedomblog

    Oops….forgot these too.
    .
    The Machinists and Aerospace union donated $2.5 million to Democrats in 2008 and $2.1 million in 2010.
    .
    The Communication Workers of America, which includes employees from several television and radio stations and other publishing platforms, donated $2.2 million to Democrats in 2008 and $2.1 million in 2010.
    .
    The United Autoworkers union (UAW) donated $2.1 million to Democrats in 2008 and $1.5 million in 2010.
    .
    The United Food and Commercial Workers union (UFCW) donated $2.1 million to Democrats in 2008 and $1.9 million in 2010.
    .
    Of course that leaves out ALL of the far left groups under the umbrella of “One Nation”.
    .
    With just the ones listed, the total is well over 100 million dollars in Union dues for the past 2 years. Let’s see, who do our Government workers and Teachers work for again?
    .
    Maybe someone else can get those figures for us. Someone? Anyone?

    Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2011/02/19/unions-fuel-democratic-party-financially/#ixzz1EWFP02z8

  • newfreedomblog

    “Damn, your so quick to play the race card, rusty!”

    .
    Don’t you mean “You’re”? As in You are?
    .
    Perhaps it wasn’t your teachers who failed you in English.
    .
    You were the one to “play the race card” Einstein. Did you forget about the Black Family Reunion you said was counted into the Tea Party protests last year? By the way, where are all the black folks at these Wisconsin Union Rallies? I don’t see many black faces in the crowd.
    .

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “I don’t see many black faces in the crowd.”
    .
    Rusty, Wisconsin is only 6.2% black.
    .
    http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/55000.html
    .
    So, you don’t see many black faces anywhere in Wisconsin.

  • diecash1

    Show us where the “Koch Brothers gave 12 million to Dick Armey’s Freedom Works”. Can you? Links please.

    To say that you’re lazy and a bit slow is an understatement rustyblogwhore. If you had bothered to look at the link that pint provided, you would have seen a hyper-link to the document detailing the funding for Armey’s front group. Since your unable to find it, here it is:
    ..
    http://mediamattersaction.org/transparency/organization/FreedomWorks/funders
    ..
    Claude R. Lambe Charitable Foundation, $5.725 million
    Charles G. Koch Charitable Foundation, $675,000
    David H. Koch Charitable Foundation, $5.957 million
    ..
    In all, approximately $12.4 million.

  • diecash1
  • diecash1

    Thanks for your perspective sue. Meltdown is a bit delusional. If Texas is so great and CA is so awful, why haven’t you moved LM? Your Repub “paradise” is just a move away.
    ..
    For some more perspective on why Texas isn’t a model for much of anything good, see here:
    ..
    http://articles.latimes.com/2011/feb/07/local/la-me-texas-budget-20110207

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Rusty,
    .
    If she didn’t go with her daughters the headlines would be about how bad of a mother she is.
    .
    If neither she nor her children went, then the story would be about how terrible the Obamas are as parents.
    .
    There’s no way to win with wingnuts like you attacking random things.
    .
    Besides, Democrats accept Keynesian economics where spending creates jobs.
    .
    Here’s the narrative of Keynesian economics:
    .
    A store owner has 10% of his former customers laid off and, therefore, no longer at his store. The other 90% have cut down their shopping by one third. So, with 40% less business, he has two choices. He can keep the employees out of the kindness of his heart and lose money hand over fist for doing so or he can layoff 40% of his employees.
    .
    Along comes a public works project bringing in 4% of the public who now can afford to shop and, since they are formerly unemployed, spend double what they used to.
    .
    Half of the people who are shopping less go back to shopping the same as they used to since their businesses are stimulated the same way. This means 19% of the 40% drop is back.
    .
    Months go by and the store hires back one more employee. Many other stores must do the same.
    .
    Finally, he has the same amount of revenue as he had had before the financial meltdown of late 2007 and it’s cascading effect of 2008 and 2009.
    .
    Then there is the conservative theory:
    .
    The stores are filled with people. Profits are going up,. The store owner sees on CNN that the US federal deficit is growing.
    .
    Store owner goes psycho, fires all of his employees and tells all of his customers that if they don’t want to wait in long lines while he runs the store alone, they can go f themselves.
    .
    Which one makes more sense?
    .
    Hence, send the first lady a nice thank you note for stimulating our economy, please.

  • diecash1

    budget deficit 15 billion for the first time.

    No, that’s not correct. The strict budget deficit is $13-15 billion but another $13 billion or so needs to be cut just to maintain where they are at right now. It’s a de facto budget deficit of $25-27 billion.
    ..
    http://articles.latimes.com/2011/feb/07/local/la-me-texas-budget-20110207
    ..
    There are many more articles written about it. Just google the Dallas newspapers.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Rusty gets interview with exclusively Tea Party members who say that teachers are “Not nice people”.
    .
    Here’s your fuhrer:
    .

    Using tax records, Mayer found that Koch-controlled foundations gave out $196 million from 1998 to 2008, much of it to conservative causes and institutions. That figure doesn’t include $50 million in Koch Industries lobbying and $4.8 million in campaign contributions by its political action committee, putting it first among energy company peers like Exxon Mobil and Chevron. Since tax law permits anonymous personal donations to nonprofit political groups, these figures may understate the case. The Kochs surely match the in-kind donations the Tea Party receives in free promotion 24/7 from Murdoch’s Fox News, where both Beck and Palin are on the payroll.

    The New Yorker article stirred up the right, too. Some of Mayer’s blogging detractors unwittingly upheld the premise of her article (titled “Covert Operations”) by conceding that they have been Koch grantees. None of them found any factual errors in her 10,000 words. Many of them tried to change the subject to George Soros, the billionaire backer of liberal causes. But Soros is a publicity hound who is transparent about where he shovels his money. And like many liberals — selflessly or foolishly, depending on your point of view — he supports causes that are unrelated to his business interests and that, if anything, raise his taxes.

    This is hardly true of the Kochs. When David Koch ran to the right of Reagan as vice president on the 1980 Libertarian ticket (it polled 1 percent), his campaign called for the abolition not just of Social Security, federal regulatory agencies and welfare but also of the F.B.I., the C.I.A., and public schools — in other words, any government enterprise that would either inhibit his business profits or increase his taxes. He hasn’t changed. As Mayer details, Koch-supported lobbyists, foundations and political operatives are at the center of climate-science denial — a cause that forestalls threats to Koch Industries’ vast fossil fuel business. While Koch foundations donate to cancer hospitals like Memorial Sloan-Kettering in New York, Koch Industries has been lobbying to stop the Environmental Protection Agency from classifying another product important to its bottom line, formaldehyde, as a “known carcinogen” in humans (which it is).

    .
    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/29/opinion/29rich.html
    .
    First give people cancer and then donate to a hospital to help people with cancer.
    .
    What wonderful people they are!

  • 1manfrombearriver

    Who is Education knows or remember Frederick Herzberg? His theory of satisfaction and motivation!

    What Herzberg proved and demonstrated was – money does not motivate. Money can only satisfy.

    Union’s philosophy with wages and benefits can at best satisfy. Then union’s philosphy with working conditions absolutely foul up or prevent the very things that empirical evidence says is necessary to motivate and reward. So the school boards and administration are hampered. Then government regulations provide an additional level of what ends up being more interference than anything else.

    Joel Klein, it would be interesting if you created a database of all these comments and categorize them by what appears to be the motivation and or category that each of these comments fills – such as unon busting, or budget balancing or educational reform, etc.

    Go study Herzberg’s stuff! He is bed rock and has been larely ignored except as historical reference in organizational science.

    Herzberg basically proved why a liberal/progressive agenda can at best only satsfy but not empower individuals to be contributing and participating citizens. Bureaucracies can only enable malaise not empower or enable and that what we are trying to acocmplish here – empower, enable and reward.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “The Koch Brothers, what?”
    .

    With his brother Charles, who is seventy-four, David Koch owns virtually all of Koch Industries, a conglomerate, headquartered in Wichita, Kansas, whose annual revenues are estimated to be a hundred billion dollars. The company has grown spectacularly since their father, Fred, died, in 1967, and the brothers took charge. The Kochs operate oil refineries in Alaska, Texas, and Minnesota, and control some four thousand miles of pipeline. Koch Industries owns Brawny paper towels, Dixie cups, Georgia-Pacific lumber, Stainmaster carpet, and Lycra, among other products. Forbes ranks it as the second-largest private company in the country, after Cargill, and its consistent profitability has made David and Charles Koch—who, years ago, bought out two other brothers—among the richest men in America. Their combined fortune of thirty-five billion dollars is exceeded only by those of Bill Gates and Warren Buffett.
    The Kochs are longtime libertarians who believe in drastically lower personal and corporate taxes, minimal social services for the needy, and much less oversight of industry—especially environmental regulation. These views dovetail with the brothers’ corporate interests. In a study released this spring, the University of Massachusetts at Amherst’s Political Economy Research Institute named Koch Industries one of the top ten air polluters in the United States. And Greenpeace issued a report identifying the company as a “kingpin of climate science denial.” The report showed that, from 2005 to 2008, the Kochs vastly outdid ExxonMobil in giving money to organizations fighting legislation related to climate change, underwriting a huge network of foundations, think tanks, and political front groups. Indeed, the brothers have funded opposition campaigns against so many Obama Administration policies—from health-care reform to the economic-stimulus program—that, in political circles, their ideological network is known as the Kochtopus.
    [...]
    Over the July 4th weekend, a summit called Texas Defending the American Dream took place in a chilly hotel ballroom in Austin. Though Koch freely promotes his philanthropic ventures, he did not attend the summit, and his name was not in evidence. And on this occasion the audience was roused not by a dance performance but by a series of speakers denouncing President Barack Obama. Peggy Venable, the organizer of the summit, warned that Administration officials “have a socialist vision for this country.”

    Five hundred people attended the summit, which served, in part, as a training session for Tea Party activists in Texas. An advertisement cast the event as a populist uprising against vested corporate power. “Today, the voices of average Americans are being drowned out by lobbyists and special interests,” it said. “But you can do something about it.” The pitch made no mention of its corporate funders. The White House has expressed frustration that such sponsors have largely eluded public notice. David Axelrod, Obama’s senior adviser, said, “What they don’t say is that, in part, this is a grassroots citizens’ movement brought to you by a bunch of oil billionaires.”
    [...]
    At the lectern in Austin, however, Venable—a longtime political operative who draws a salary from Americans for Prosperity, and who has worked for Koch-funded political groups since 1994—spoke less warily. “We love what the Tea Parties are doing, because that’s how we’re going to take back America!” she declared, as the crowd cheered. In a subsequent interview, she described herself as an early member of the movement, joking, “I was part of the Tea Party before it was cool!” She explained that the role of Americans for Prosperity was to help “educate” Tea Party activists on policy details, and to give them “next-step training” after their rallies, so that their political energy could be channelled “more effectively.” And she noted that Americans for Prosperity had provided Tea Party activists with lists of elected officials to target. She said of the Kochs, “They’re certainly our people. David’s the chairman of our board. I’ve certainly met with them, and I’m very appreciative of what they do.”
    [...]
    The Texas branch of Americans for Prosperity gave its Blogger of the Year Award to a young woman named Sibyl West. On June 14th, West, writing on her site, described Obama as the “cokehead in chief.” In an online thread, West speculated that the President was exhibiting symptoms of “demonic possession (aka schizophrenia, etc.).
    [...]
    Americans for Prosperity has worked closely with the Tea Party since the movement’s inception. In the weeks before the first Tax Day protests, in April, 2009, Americans for Prosperity hosted a Web site offering supporters “Tea Party Talking Points.” The Arizona branch urged people to send tea bags to Obama; the Missouri branch urged members to sign up for “Taxpayer Tea Party Registration” and provided directions to nine protests. The group continues to stoke the rebellion.The North Carolina branch recently launched a “Tea Party Finder” Web site, advertised as “a hub for all the Tea Parties in North Carolina.”
    [...]
    A Republican campaign consultant who has done research on behalf of Charles and David Koch said of the Tea Party, “The Koch brothers gave the money that founded it. It’s like they put the seeds in the ground. Then the rainstorm comes, and the frogs come out of the mud—and they’re our candidates!”
    [...]
    The Republican campaign consultant said of the family’s political activities, “To call them under the radar is an understatement. They are underground!” Another former Koch adviser said, “They’re smart. This right-wing, redneck stuff works for them. They see this as a way to get things done without getting dirty themselves.”

    Read more http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/08/30/100830fa_fact_mayer#ixzz1EWYBjXfk
    .
    And that’s just from the first two pages of a ten page article about the people who pay Rusty, “Dr” Earl, 3X, RDW56, Freeinpa the Kochhead brothers.

  • newfreedomblog

    So how long have the Unions made Democrat politicians squat down before them pattysartor? 40? 50? 80 years?
    .
    LOL, keep trying buddy boy. You are surely proving the case to America.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Oddly enough, the fiercely capitalist Koch family owes part of its fortune to Joseph Stalin.Fred Koch was the son of a Dutch printer who settled in Texas and ran a weekly newspaper. Fred attended M.I.T., where he earned a degree in chemical engineering. In 1927, he invented a more efficient process for converting oil into gasoline, but, according to family lore, America’s major oil companies regarded him as a threat and shut him out of the industry. Unable to succeed at home, Koch found work in the Soviet Union. In the nineteen-thirties, his company trained Bolshevik engineers and helped Stalin’s regime set up fifteen modern oil refineries.
    [...]
    In 1958, Fred Koch became one of the original members of the John Birch Society, the arch-conservative group known, in part, for a highly skeptical view of governance and for spreading fears of a Communist takeover. Members considered President Dwight D. Eisenhower to be a Communist agent. In a self-published broadside, Koch claimed that “the Communists have infiltrated both the Democrat and Republican Parties.” He wrote admiringly of Benito Mussolini’s suppression of Communists in Italy, and disparagingly of the American civil-rights movement. “The colored man looms large in the Communist plan to take over America,” he warned. Welfare was a secret plot to attract rural blacks to cities, where they would foment “a vicious race war.” In a 1963 speech that prefigures the Tea Party’s talk of a secret socialist plot, Koch predicted that Communists would “infiltrate the highest offices of government in the U.S. until the President is a Communist, unknown to the rest of us.”
    [...]
    David Koch recalled that his father also indoctrinated the boys politically. “He was constantly speaking to us children about what was wrong with government,” he told Brian Doherty, an editor of the libertarian magazine Reason, and the author of “Radicals for Capitalism,” a 2007 history of the libertarian movement. “It’s something I grew up with—a fundamental point of view that big government was bad, and imposition of government controls on our lives and economic fortunes was not good.”
    [...]
    Members of the John Birch Society developed an interest in a school of Austrian economists who promoted free-market ideals. Charles and David Koch were particularly influenced by the work of Friedrich von Hayek, the author of “The Road to Serfdom” (1944), which argued that centralized government planning led, inexorably, to totalitarianism.
    [...]
    David, described by associates as “affable” and “a bit of a lunk,” enjoyed for years the life of a wealthy bachelor. He rented a yacht in the South of France and bought a waterfront home in Southampton, where he threw parties that the Web site New York Social Diary likened to an “East Coast version of Hugh Hefner’s soirées.” In 1996, he married Julia Flesher, a fashion assistant. They live in a nine-thousand-square-foot duplex at 740 Park Avenue, with their three children.
    [...]
    Many of the ideas propounded in the 1980 campaign presaged the Tea Party movement. Ed Clark told The Nation that libertarians were getting ready to stage “a very big tea party,” because people were “sick to death” of taxes. The Libertarian Party platform called for the abolition of the F.B.I. and the C.I.A., as well as of federal regulatory agencies, such as the Securities and Exchange Commission and the Department of Energy. The Party wanted to end Social Security, minimum-wage laws, gun control, and all personal and corporate income taxes; it proposed the legalization of prostitution, recreational drugs, and suicide. Government should be reduced to only one function: the protection of individual rights. William F. Buckley, Jr., a more traditional conservative, called the movement “Anarcho-Totalitarianism.”
    [...]
    A longtime confidant of the Kochs told Doherty that the brothers wanted to “supply the themes and words for the scripts.” In order to alter the direction of America, they had to “influence the areas where policy ideas percolate from: academia and think tanks.”
    [...]
    Tax records indicate that in 2008 the three main Koch family foundations gave money to thirty-four political and policy organizations, three of which they founded, and several of which they direct. The Kochs and their company have given additional millions to political campaigns, advocacy groups, and lobbyists.
    [...]
    So far in 2010, Koch Industries leads all other energy companies in political contributions, as it has since 2006. In addition, during the past dozen years the Kochs and other family members have personally spent more than two million dollars on political contributions. In the second quarter of 2010, David Koch was the biggest individual contributor to the Republican Governors Association, with a million-dollar donation. Other gifts by the Kochs may be untraceable; federal tax law permits anonymous personal donations to politically active nonprofit groups.
    [...]
    n recent decades, members of several industrial dynasties have spent parts of their fortunes on a conservative agenda. In the nineteen-eighties, the Olin family, which owns a chemicals-and-manufacturing conglomerate, became known for funding right-leaning thinking in academia, particularly in law schools. And during the nineties Richard Mellon Scaife, a descendant of Andrew Mellon, spent millions attempting to discredit President Bill Clinton. Ari Rabin-Havt, a vice-president at the Democratic-leaning Web site Media Matters, said that the Kochs’ effort is unusual, in its marshalling of corporate and personal funds: “Their role, in terms of financial commitments, is staggering.”

    Read more http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/08/30/100830fa_fact_mayer#ixzz1EWfWxBXh
    .
    Wonderful people, your employers the Koch brothers are, Rusty.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “So how long have the Unions made Democrat politicians squat down before them pattysartor? 40? 50? 80 years?”
    .
    What country have you been living in?
    .
    “So how long have the Unions big business made Democrat politicianstake a squat down before on Unions pattysartor? 40? 50? 80 years?”
    .
    About 40 years now big business has been made the Democrats join the Republicans taking a squat on unions.
    .
    Any more questions?

  • 53_3

    Rusty:
    .
    You are exceedingly ill.
    .
    As for the 8/28 Teabagger thing, google it. If you can force yourself to, google ‘Black Family Reunion’ too.
    .
    Here rusty, fetch:
    http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2011/02/look_at_the_map.php#more?ref=fpblg

  • 53_3

    Rusty, put the race card away.
    .
    Until you brought it up, this entire discussion has been about collective bargaining and the Wisconsin budget bill.

  • swissArmyBrainBETA

    aha! great stuff. i’m still trying to figure out what he’s saying about the COG measurement error though. basically, he’s finding that it doesn’t affect ANYTHING at all in the end which seems a bit ridiculous. if teachers aren’t getting any better pay/benefits at all, then apparently their unions are terrible at collective bargaining! still looking at it…

  • liberalmeltdown

    Teachers in WI are getting paid to bo@tch about their jobs with fake, fraudulent doctor notes.

  • 53_3

    I want to thank jwbates for going providing telling information about this issue.
    .
    One thing that stood out, and always grabs the attention most it seems is a map:
    http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2011/02/look_at_the_map.php#more?ref=fpblg
    .
    This map shows which states do and do not allow collective bargaining.
    .
    If someone can, would they post a map of the ranked quality of education of the states?
    .
    It would be interesting to see.
    .
    Thanks again, jwbates!

  • 53_3

    earljr works there?

  • 53_3

    Oh, liberal:
    .
    Provide two things:
    .
    A link, and statistics on how many did this.
    .
    That is all…

  • 53_3

    well rusty, I have two phrases for you:
    .
    Dick Armey’s freedomworks – about $100,000,000
    .
    K Street
    .
    Don’t debate me, Google it!

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    The Kochs have given millions of dollars to nonprofit groups that criticize environmental regulation and support lower taxes for industry. Gus diZerega, the former friend, suggested that the Kochs’ youthful idealism about libertarianism had largely devolved into a rationale for corporate self-interest. He said of Charles, “Perhaps he has confused making money with freedom.”

    Some critics have suggested that the Kochs’ approach has subverted the purpose of tax-exempt giving. By law, charitable foundations must conduct exclusively nonpartisan activities that promote the public welfare. A 2004 report by the National Committee for Responsive Philanthropy, a watchdog group, described the Kochs’ foundations as being self-serving, concluding, “These foundations give money to nonprofit organizations that do research and advocacy on issues that impact the profit margin of Koch Industries.”
    The Kochs have gone well beyond their immediate self-interest, however, funding organizations that aim to push the country in a libertarian direction. Among the institutions that they have subsidized are the Institute for Justice, which files lawsuits opposing state and federal regulations; the Institute for Humane Studies, which underwrites libertarian academics; and the Bill of Rights Institute, which promotes a conservative slant on the Constitution. Many of the organizations funded by the Kochs employ specialists who write position papers that are subsequently quoted by politicians and pundits. David Koch has acknowledged that the family exerts tight ideological control. “If we’re going to give a lot of money, we’ll make darn sure they spend it in a way that goes along with our intent,” he told Doherty. “And if they make a wrong turn and start doing things we don’t agree with, we withdraw funding.”
    The Kochs’ subsidization of a pro-corporate movement fulfills, in many ways, the vision laid out in a secret 1971 memo that Lewis Powell, then a Virginia attorney, wrote two months before he was nominated to the Supreme Court. The antiwar movement had turned its anger on defense contractors, such as Dow Chemical, and Ralph Nader was leading a public-interest crusade against corporations. Powell, writing a report for the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, urged American companies to fight back. The greatest threat to free enterprise, he warned, was not Communism or the New Left but, rather, “respectable elements of society”—intellectuals, journalists, and scientists. To defeat them, he wrote, business leaders needed to wage a long-term, unified campaign to change public opinion.
    [...]
    In 1977, the Kochs provided the funds to launch the nation’s first libertarian think tank, the Cato Institute. According to the Center for Public Integrity, between 1986 and 1993 the Koch family gave eleven million dollars to the institute. Today, Cato has more than a hundred full-time employees, and its experts and policy papers are widely quoted and respected by the mainstream media. It describes itself as nonpartisan, and its scholars have at times been critical of both parties. But it has consistently pushed for corporate tax cuts, reductions in social services, and laissez-faire environmental policies.
    [...]
    Cato scholars have been particularly energetic in promoting the Climategate scandal. Last year, private e-mails of climate scientists at the University of East Anglia, in England, were mysteriously leaked, and their exchanges appeared to suggest a willingness to falsify data in order to buttress the idea that global warming is real. In the two weeks after the e-mails went public, one Cato scholar gave more than twenty media interviews trumpeting the alleged scandal. Butfive independent inquiries have since exonerated the researchers, and nothing was found in their e-mails or data to discredit the scientific consensus on global warming.
    [...]
    In a 2002 memo, the Republican political consultant Frank Luntz wrote that so long as “voters believe there is no consensus about global warming within the scientific community” the status quo would prevail. The key for opponents of environmental reform, he said, was to question the science—a public-relations strategy that the tobacco industry used effectively for years to forestall regulation. The Kochs have funded many sources of environmental skepticism, such as the Heritage Foundation, which has argued that “scientific facts gathered in the past 10 years do not support the notion of catastrophic human-made warming.”
    [...]
    Naomi Oreskes, a professor of history and science studies at the University of California, San Diego, is the co-author of “Merchants of Doubt,” a new book that chronicles various attempts by American industry to manipulate public opinion on science. She noted that the Kochs, as the heads of “a company with refineries and pipelines,” have “a lot at stake.” She added, “If the answer is to phase out fossil fuels, a different group of people are going to be making money, so we shouldn’t be surprised that they’re fighting tooth and nail.”

    David Koch told New York that he was unconvinced that global warming has been caused by human activity. Even if it has been, he said, the heating of the planet will be beneficial, resulting in longer growing seasons in the Northern Hemisphere. “The Earth will be able to support enormously more people because far greater land area will be available to produce food,” he said.
    In the mid-eighties, the Kochs provided millions of dollars to George Mason University, in Arlington, Virginia, to set up another think tank. Now known as the Mercatus Center, it promotes itself as “the world’s premier university source for market-oriented ideas—bridging the gap between academic ideas and real-world problems.” Financial records show that the Koch family foundations have contributed more than thirty million dollars to George Mason, much of which has gone to the Mercatus Center, a nonprofit organization. “It’s ground zero for deregulation policy in Washington,”
    [...]
    At a 1995 conference for philanthropists, Fink adopted the language of economics when speaking about the Mercatus Center’s purpose. He said that grant-makers should use think tanks and political-action groups to convert intellectual raw materials into policy “products.

    The Wall Street Journal has called the Mercatus Center “the most important think tank you’ve never heard of,” and noted that fourteen of the twenty-three regulations that President George W. Bush placed on a “hit list” had been suggested first by Mercatus scholars. Fink told the paper that the Kochs have “other means of fighting [their] battles,” and that the Mercatus Center does not actively promote the company’s private interests. But Thomas McGarity, a law professor at the University of Texas, who specializes in environmental issues, told me that “Koch has been constantly in trouble with the E.P.A., and Mercatus has constantly hammered on the agency.”
    [...]
    “Ideas don’t happen on their own,” Matt Kibbe, the president of FreedomWorks, a Tea Party advocacy group, told me. “Throughout history, ideas need patrons.” The Koch brothers, after helping to create Cato and Mercatus, concluded that think tanks alone were not enough to effect change. They needed a mechanism to deliver those ideas to the street, and to attract the public’s support. In 1984, David Koch and Richard Fink created yet another organization, and Kibbe joined them. The group, Citizens for a Sound Economy, seemed like a grassroots movement, but according to the Center for Public Integrity it was sponsored principally by the Kochs, who provided $7.9 million between 1986 and 1993. Its mission, Kibbe said, “was to take these heavy ideas and translate them for mass America. . . . We read the same literature Obama did about nonviolent revolutions—Saul Alinsky, Gandhi, Martin Luther King. We studied the idea of the Boston Tea Party as an example of nonviolent social change. We learned we needed boots on the ground to sell ideas, not candidates.” Within a few years, the group had mobilized fifty paid field workers, in twenty-six states, to rally voters behind the Kochs’ agenda. David and Charles, according to one participant, were “very controlling, very top down. You can’t build an organization with them. They run it.”

    Around this time, the brothers faced a political crisis. In 1989, the Senate Select Committee on Indian Affairs investigated their business and released a scathing report accusing Koch Oil of “a widespread and sophisticated scheme to steal crude oil from Indians and others through fraudulent mismeasuring.” The Kochs admitted that they had improperly taken thirty-one million dollars’ worth of crude oil, but said that it had been accidental. Charles Koch told committee investigators that oil measurement is “a very uncertain art.J
    .
    Once again, what lovely bosses telling you your daily talking points political allies you have, Rusty.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Sorry, same link as before:
    .
    http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/08/30/100830fa_fact_mayer?currentPage=7
    .
    By now you should either be bored to tears with this article, or, like me, eager to read the last two pages of it.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Sorry, but this is an amazing paragraph on page 8:
    .

    During the Clinton Administration, the energy industry faced increased scrutiny and regulation. In the mid-nineties, the Justice Department filed two lawsuits against Koch Industries, claiming that it was responsible for more than three hundred oil spills, which had released an estimated three million gallons of oil into lakes and rivers. The penalty was potentially as high as two hundred and fourteen million dollars. In a settlement, Koch Industries paid a record thirty-million-dollar civil fine, and agreed to spend five million dollars on environmental projects.

    In 1999, a jury found Koch Industries guilty of negligence and malice in the deaths of two Texas teen-agers in an explosion that resulted from a leaky underground butane pipeline. (In 2001, the company paid an undisclosed settlement.) And in the final months of the Clinton Presidency the Justice Department levelled a ninety-seven-count indictment against the company, for covering up the discharge of ninety-one tons of benzene, a carcinogen, from its refinery in Corpus Christi, Texas. The company was liable for three hundred and fifty million dollars in fines, and four Koch employees faced up to thirty-five years in prison. The Koch Petroleum Group eventually pleaded guilty to one criminal charge of covering up environmental violations, including the falsification of documents, and paid a twenty-million-dollar fine. David Uhlmann, a career prosecutor who, at the time, headed the environmental-crimes section at the Justice Department, described the suit as “one of the most significant cases ever brought under the Clean Air Act.” He added, “Environmental crimes are almost always motivated by economics and arrogance, and in the Koch case there was a healthy dose of both.”

    Read more http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/08/30/100830fa_fact_mayer#ixzz1EWpZlm6Y

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    53!
    .
    PsychiatricMeltdown is a conservative he don’t need no stinkin links.

  • shepherdwong

    The public sector is different from the private sector.
    .
    Yes, there are still unions to give front-line workers a modicum of power to negotiate the terms of their employment. That’s what’s different and sociopathic plutocrats hate that. That’s all this is is about and you’re either one of them or you’re too clueless to do your job. .
    .
    Public employee jobs, hours and benefits have been slashed everywhere in this country so the supposed power of public employee unions to resist those cuts is sh!t, as are all your other rationalizations. There’s a class war going on and you just picked the side of the sociopaths who are waging that war against all of the rest of us.

  • annevincent

    Unions are important entities to protect workers’ working conditions, salaries, and benefits. But over the decades, the unions have turned into self-serving political power brokers…. and big bullies. They are as corrupt as any lobbying force in Washington, and because they act in concert with a specific political party they have an inherent “conflict of interest” in the public employee arena. This needs to be stopped. My grandparents were original union organizers, and even they would never approve of the monster that unions have morphed into.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Union’s philosophy with wages and benefits can at best satisfy. Then union’s philosphy with working conditions absolutely foul up or prevent the very things that empirical evidence says is necessary to motivate and reward.”

    .

    Motivator Factors
    * Achievement
    * Recognition
    * Work Itself
    * Responsibility
    * Promotion
    * Growth
    .

    Hygiene Factors

    * Pay and Benefits
    * Company Policy and Administration
    * Relationships with co-workers
    * Supervision
    * Status
    * Job Security
    * Working Conditions
    * Personal life
    .
    [...]
    In 1968 Herzberg stated that his two-factor theory study had already been replicated 16 times in a wide variety of populations including some in Communist countries, and corroborated with studies using different procedures that agreed with his original findings regarding intrinsic employee motivation making it one of the most widely replicated studies on job attitudes.

    While the Motivator-Hygiene concept is still well regarded, satisfaction and dissatisfaction are generally[who?] no longer considered to exist on separate scales. The separation of satisfaction and dissatisfaction has been shown to be an artifact of the Critical Incident Technique (CIT) used by Herzberg to record events.[5] Furthermore, it has been noted the theory does not allow for individual differences, such as particular personality traits, which would affect individuals’ unique responses to motivating or hygiene factors.[4]
    [...]
    If the motivation-hygiene theory holds, management not only must provide hygiene factors to avoid employee dissatisfaction, but also must provide factors intrinsic to the work itself for employees to be satisfied with their jobs.

    Herzberg argued that job enrichment is required for intrinsic motivation, and that it is a continuous management process. According to Herzberg:

    * “The job should have sufficient challenge to utilize the full ability of the employee.”
    * “Employees who demonstrate increasing levels of ability should be given increasing levels of responsibility.”
    * “If a job cannot be designed to use an employee’s full abilities, then the firm should consider automating the task or replacing the employee with one who has a lower level of skill. If a person cannot be fully utilized, then there will be a motivation problem.”

    .
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_factor_theory#Validity_and_criticisms
    .
    Man,
    .
    I don’t see how unions who demand to have a say in working conditions conflict with this at all.
    .
    The Teacher’s union is often all about working conditions. Recently many teachers unions have, through their rank and file members, determined that student testing, if done fairly taking many outside factors into account is absolutely acceptable to teachers so long as it used as means to locate teachers who should train other teachers and/or to locate teachers who need training or re-training and not as hit list to eliminate teachers unpopular with the administration.
    .
    So, your point is as clear as mud.

  • jlm554

    Joe,
    I am one of the NYC school “janitors” you talked about. The correct job title of the “janitors” you are talking about is custodian engineer. Thirty years ago the only CEs making $60,000 a year were very senior engineers in charge of high schools. They have a staff of 15 to 25 people working for them. They generate the payroll for these employees in addition to purchasing supplies and equipment for their buildings. Today many custodian engineers in charge of a high schools have an operating budget in excess of a million dollars. They all have have operating engineers licenses ( high pressure steam operator) in addition to refrigeration licenses and multiple certificate issued by the NYC fire dept.

    The contract you refer to about mopping the cafeterias once a week was in response to a huge budget cut that the schools were given. It did not mean that the cafeterias weren’t “mopped” every day. Of course they were spotted mopped every day but once a week they were thoroughly mopped (and scrubbed if needed). Was it the best contract ever written? No. But that was remedied and the maintenance contracts are much different and more responsive now to the individual needs of each school. This was accomplished by the city and the custodian’s union working together.

    The people I know who are building managers in private buildings do just as well, if not better than myself. So please, get you facts straight.

    In response to the state worker’s in Wisconsin: I called up a friend who works for Time Warner and asked him about hos benefits. She pays 3 1/2 % of her pay for health benefits. She gets up to 7% of her 401K contributions matched by Time Warner, which, by the way, used to have a pension for their employees also. In addition there is also stock options available to management positions – like you Joe! Please tell me in what public sector job do they have matching 401k plans and stock options?

    Yes, public employees can vote for new management but do to lack of a portable pension they can’t leave the system. Maybe the answer is a matching system where the gov’t kicks in. This way good teachers can leave dis functional systems for better ones or ones that offer better pay and benefits – like private sector employees can do.

    Also, as someone who has worked next to teachers for the past twenty years let say a few words about them. The vast majority of them are dedicated people who often spend their own money for teaching supplies. All this stuff about is we get rid of the teacher;s union the schools will improve drastically goes against all evidence. States where there is no collective bargaining for teacher’s have some of the worst educational records in the country. So where’s the stats to back you up Joe?

  • Matt

    The public employees have offered to give Walker and the Republithugs every concession they have so forcefully demands. Everything. Collective bargaining, a right enjoyed by Wisconsin state employees for 50 years, is the only issue they won’t back down from., That’s it. And Walker hasn’t even responded to the offer. This is about radical right-wing ideology, not budget savings…

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “But over the decades, the unions have turned into [bold] from self-serving political power brokers [as they were in the 1940s, 50s and 60s - the glory days to most conservatives for no known reason unless you are white supremacist since since that is the only thing which became more liberal since then] …. and big bullies. They are as corrupt [ nowhere near as strong] as any lobbying force in Washington, and because they act in concert with [demonized and attacked by ] a specific political party they have an inherent “conflict of interest” in the public employee arena.[they are kept weak.]

    .
    This is a mess.
    .
    But over the decades, the unions have turned from political power brokersas they were in the 1940s, 50s and 60s (the glory days to most conservatives for no known reason unless you are white supremacist since since that is the only thing which became more liberal since then) . They are nowhere near as strong as any lobbying force in Washington, and because they demonized and attacked by a specific political party they are kept weak.
    .
    My grandparents were original union organizers, and even they would never approve of the monster that unions [ their grandchildren] have morphed into.
    .
    Check you history books.
    .
    Truman through Carter needed the Union vote to win elections.
    .
    Reagan, Bush Sr, Clinton, W and Obama have given the unions the finger and still get elected.

  • freeinpa

    “Walker has refused to budge on the “collective bargaining” aspect, which has NOTHING to do with the budget and is being unevenly targeted. in any rate.”
    .
    Really

    “Typical issues covered in a labor contract are hours, wages, benefits, working conditions, and the rules of the workplace. Once both sides have reached a contract that they find agreeable, it is signed and kept in place for a set period of time, most commonly three years. The final contract is called a collective bargaining agreement”
    .
    Exactly how yo consider hours, wages, benefits and rules of workplace having nothing to do with a budget is mind-boggling. If they don’t what do they have to do with?.

    The insanity of the left as one of its sacred cows is finally being taken to task. The left complains about corporate interests buying favors in government but for decades teachers have been “negotiating” with other union members or politicians their unions have been sending money. Selective outrage and the taxpayers are tired of it. They pushed to far and now don’t like the result. And now we get to watch liberals heads explode everywhere!

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Anne,
    .
    I am sorry that you have become a conservative monster, but, if you learn to ignore sources like Fox paid for by right wing billionaires with an agenda to sell you, you’d discover that that your grandparents so long as they were union organizers after The National Labor Relations Act of 1935 were organizing for unions far stronger than the ones we have today.
    .
    I am sure that they would be displeased with your opinions if they could hear you today.

  • apr2563

    Newrusty: I posted a commented that addressed the “fact’ you refer to:

    “But that totally ignores the large number of teachers who leave before they get tenure, many of whom are low performers. If only 1/2 of those are substandard teachers, then the rate of substandard teachers leaving is higher than the 5-10% Hanushek says is necessary to replace, and not only 1 in 2,500. ”
    .
    See 1.11 for the “facts” on Waiting for Superman, which I have actually watched. Have you?

  • freeinpa

    “Now no distractions like phony budget issues. Just union busting.”
    .
    No budget was the issue. Being able to free taxpayers from the stranglehold of the unions is just a bonus.

  • apr2563


    .
    For the teachers and all those in Wisconsin standing up for the right to oraganize and negotiate.

  • apr2563
  • apr2563
  • apr2563

    Newrusty: Since the reactionaries on this site keep repeating the same unproven statements and don’t bother to look at real evidence that refutes their close minded beliefs, I will repeat these questions in relation to comparative studies:

    1. Quality of administrations
    Do they mentor, encourage, and use their ability to terminate when appropriate?
    2. Do foreign schools, private schools etc. mandate mainstreaming of students challenged by mental or physical issues as is true in US public schools?
    3. Do US teachers have the same parental support in all districts and as in other countries?
    4. How are schools funded in other countries? Are they as varied as ours are by the use of property taxes?
    5. Do foreign schools have better incentives for doing well by offering easier access to higher education?
    6. What affect does student turnover have on outcomes?
    7. How do we compare outcomes in the US with those in countries with multi-tiered systems?
    .
    Please consider all variables before assigning blame.

  • apr2563

    Thanks for answering Newrustie’s question better than I could.

  • apr2563

    http://crooksandliars.com/karoli/wisconsin-protesters-breitbarted-over-bogus
    .
    Fox News broke this bulletin (accompanied by a tsk tsk by the anchor) about an hour ago. It stems from a video posted by the MacIver Institute Wisconsin alleging that a doctor is signing bogus excuses for teachers protesting in Madison.
    .
    Here’s some information about the MacIver Institute:

    In December the domain maciverinstitute.com was privately registered with no one willing to lay public claim to the new org. They also have set up a super duper secret Twitter account that you can’t follow without special permission. When I visited their actual website last night, it was still largely lacking substance. Right now I am having problems accessing it but here is a cached version. The site did give some important information however. It gave a glimpse of some of the people involved with this operation – a motley crew indeed. First you have Scott Jensen who still is awaiting his second criminal felony trial. Then you have Michael Dean, from the wild-eyed First Freedoms Foundation, listed as a contact person. Listed as treasurer for the org is Mark Block, the guy that got the stiffest penalty for political campaign violations ever handed down in the state. This new right wing org is also listed on a national directory and it lists Block as also being a contact for the organization.
    .
    The MacIver Institute has numerous ties to the ‘Kochtopus.’ Mark Block, the AFP Wisconsin state director and a key figure in the alleged voter suppression plot, sits on MacIver’s board of directors. MacIver and AFP Wisconsin also share two other board members, David Fettig and Fred Luber. MacIver also works closely with AFP Wisconsin as part of the Wisconsin Prosperity Network, along with another group with ties to Koch funding, American Majority. The think tank also participates in the Koch-funded Institute for Humane Studies’ Koch Summer Fellows Program and is a member of the Koch-funded State Policy Network

  • apr2563

    textee: Instead of repeating your post, take time to read 40.3.

  • wagedronenumber9

    I don’t think anyone should be surprised if Walker doesn’t back down soon. This is the Newt Gingrich style of governing, never compromise with the other party until you are finally boxed in. The Republicans used this to make great gains in the last election so why should anyone expect the governor to “cave” to any demands of those out of power?

    Walker argues that the police, state troopers and firefighters are essential as the rational for not taking away the right to have unions, so in essence he is arguing that education is not an essential service provided by the state of Wisconsin. How many people in the nation really believe that?

  • Paul-no not that one

    If your facts are accurate about Time Warner JK should-but almost certainly won’t-respond to this comment.
    .
    And the answer will be “private not public”. That’s the great thing about human nature, we can always justify our hypocrisies.

  • apr2563

    Since I already posted this on the thread I won’t repeat the facts that link this video to a bogus Republican group and the Koch Brothers. Here is the link, read it yourself.
    .
    http://crooksandliars.com/karoli/wisconsin-protesters-breitbarted-over-bogus

  • apr2563

    Thanks jlm for the information. I also inquired of Joe on a prior comment, how many lawyers and agents does Joe have that negotiate his contracts?

  • apr2563

    Historically this is what Republicans do. Then the public starts to pay attention to their reactionary agenda and they are thrown out. Let’s hope history stays consistent.
    .
    Also, even though police and firefighters supported Walker’s election, many are standing up for the teachers.

  • apr2563

    I am afraid Joe Klein has not read past the first few comments. In the tradition of Barbara Bush noblisse oblige, he might not want to bother his pretty little head with the facts and heartfelt posts here that speak for real life people.
    .
    JK has lost all credibility. He no longer has to pose as a liberal, a progressive, or a traditional Democrat.
    .
    http://www.first-draft.com/2011/02/shorter-joke-line-unions-suck-and-protest-sucks-and-your-face-sucks.html
    .
    “Can somebody please explain to Joke the point about the right of the people to peaceably assemble and petition the government for a redress of grievances? I swear I read that somewhere once.”
    .
    http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2011/02/joe-klein-taqkes-tripn-memory-lane-and.html
    .
    “Joe Klein has been so immersed in the Third Way centrist babble on public employee unions for so long that he’s completely lost the thread.
    If I didn’t know better, I’d think that Joe just dusted off an old column from 1993, changed a few names and just threw it on line. He clearly has not been following the changing debate on these issues over the past few years and certainly hasn’t the vaguest clue about what Walker is really doing.”

  • apr2563

    http://www.slate.com/blogs/blogs/weigel/archive/2011/02/18/scott-walker-s-big-gamble.aspx
    .
    JK: Good question for you.
    .

    I was just on Dylan Ratigan’s show, where Harold Myerson gave the right answer to a good question: Why aren’t unions up in arms about the pension reforms proposed by Gov. Jerry Brown, D-Ca., and Gov. Andrew Cuomo, D-NY?

    Well, they sort of are. New York State United Teachers are buying up ad time to oppose Cuomo’s cuts to the school budget. But in the state with the most union members, and the state with the highest proportion of unionized workers, the unions are mostly holding their power. And that’s because unlike Scott Walker, the Democratic governors are limiting their reforms to pensions and other items relevant to the budget. Walker is doing that and 1) going after collective bargaining rights and 2) asking for mandatory annual elections to determine union membership. And those measures are patently designed to weaken labor for all time, long after the crisis is over.

    If Democrats return to the Capitol to cut a deal, those will be the items removed from the deal. And removing them would be a massive concession/defeat/etc for Walker.

    .
    http://www.theawl.com/2011/02/burning-down-wisconsin-the-hidden-budget-bill-item-even-worse-than-union-busting
    .

    What has been widely ignored about Walker’s bill (in part because of the speed with which he’s fisting it down Wisconsin’s gullet) is a sneaky provision that paves the way for him to cut, or eliminate, Medicaid and BadgerCare healthcare benefits for low-income people.

    Walker’s administrative rules change would allow the Department of Health Services, via the overwhelmingly GOP-controlled budget committee, to change state laws unilaterally, skipping the legislative process altogether.

    What Walker really means when he says that Wisconsin is “open for business” is that Wisconsin is “closed for poor people.”

  • Paul-no not that one

    apr-I only read about the second part of your comment yesterday.
    .
    It made me wonder if the union busting was a head fake and that Walker could drop that, get the bill passed, and then start the dismantling of Wisconsin’s public healthcare.
    .
    After two minutes of thought I realized he doesn’t have to step back an inch.

  • apr2563

    http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2011/02/are_wisconsins_state_and_local.html
    .
    Are Wisconsin’s state and local workers overpaid?
    .

    Consider this analysis the Economic Policy Institute conducted comparing total compensation — that is to say, wages and health-care benefits and pensions — among public and private workers in Wisconsin. To get an apples-to-apples comparison, the study’s author controlled for experience, organizational size, gender, race, ethnicity, citizenship and disability, and then sorted the results by education. Here’s what he got:

    .
    See accompanying chart
    .

    If you prefer it in non-graph form: “Wisconsin public-sector workers face an annual compensation penalty of 11%. Adjusting for the slightly fewer hours worked per week on average, these public workers still face a compensation penalty of 5% for choosing to work in the public sector.”

    The deal that unions, state government and — by extension — state residents have made to defer the compensation of public employees was a bad deal — but it was a bad deal for the public employees, not for the state government. State and local governments were able to hire better workers now by promising higher pay later. They essentially hired on an installment plan. And now they might not follow through on it. The ones who got played here are the public employees, not the residents of the various states. The residents of the various states, when all is said and done, will probably have gotten the work at a steep discount. They’ll force a renegotiation of the contracts and blame overprivileged public employees for resisting shared sacrifice.

    That, however, is how it’s been presented. State and local budgets are in bad shape. They’ll need deep reforms across a variety of categories, from tax increases to service cuts to changes to employee compensation. But the focus on public employees — and the accompanying narrative that they’re greedy and overcompensated — obscures a lot of that: It makes it seem as if the decisions that have to be made are easy and costless and can be shunted onto an interest group that some of us, at least, don’t like. It’s the Republican version of when liberals suggest we can balance the budget simply by increasing taxes on the rich. But it’s not true.

  • newfreedomblog

    Thanks for your comment annevincent. Ignore the toad, pattysartor. He is the most vile person on this site with the exception of IQ53. Rather than put up an argument, they resort to typical name calling as you are now a victim of, and witness.
    .
    But, as they defend their union thugs and other nefarious far left wingers, who can really be surprised.
    .
    The same tactics used by union thugs are used right her in the swamp to intimidate anyone who disagrees with them or their position.

  • apr2563

    Those not sharing in the responsibility for the deficit:
    Bernanke
    Bush
    Mitch Daniels
    Clinton
    Goldman Sachs
    Larry Summers
    Rubin
    Geitner
    AIG
    Lehman Brothers CEOs etc.
    Countrywide
    TARP beneficiaries
    Corrupt lobbiests and politicians
    The list is endless.
    .
    Who alone is being designated as those needing to share in the responsibility?:
    .
    middle class Americans
    union members
    the poor
    veterans
    the sick
    .
    When will we learn, that we are at the mercy of the plutocrats?

  • wagedronenumber9

    Poor people in Wisconsin? No,no, no! There are only lazy people who suck the teat of the government.

    Capitalism means competition, and competition means there are winner and losers. The question about the role of the government should become if it dutiful serves the interests of all the people or only the winners of the race.

    Now that the retirement and health care premiums changes for state employees like the teachers etc..are fait accompli, how deep will this go? Will the governor too have to pay more from his own pocket? What about the state legislators? And the judges? Will they be affected to? Or is this just for those state employees who have been sucking the teat of the government?

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “.No budget was the issue. Being able to free taxpayers from the stranglehold of the unions is just a bonus.”
    .
    No, the unions actually did voluntarily accept pay cuts. It’s about not giving up our first Amendment rights of lawful assembly.
    .
    And, no, lawful assembly does not mean that the schools can call an assembly to give the students a lecture on the law – although that is on the list of things one can do with that right. Forming a union is another right.

  • apr2563

    http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/
    .
    If you haven’t already, take a break and catch up with events in the Middle East, particularly Lybia.

  • Paul-no not that one

    “state employees who have been sucking the teat of the government”
    .
    Do I suck at the teat of my private employer? Do you?
    .
    How do some workers suck at the teat and others do not?
    .
    Or is everyone who isn’t self employed a teat sucker?

  • Paul-no not that one

    oops 71.1 should be here.

  • elwaitactu8

    Though I would like to agree with your conclusions because they support what I believe, your assumption that a single variable if it is the most predictive should show up univariately is not necessarily true. I’m an actuary who works mainly in predictive modeling and this is a common misconception that I have run into.
    .
    One would expect the single most predictive variable to show the “correct” pattern univariately since no other variable would have enough signal to over-power the signal from the most predictive variable (MPV). This isn’t true since the interactions of all non-included variables are being ignored in the univariate analysis. These interactions may combine signal from multiple variables which could hide the signal from the MPV.
    .
    Basically we would expect the signal from the MPV to beat out the signal from any other individual variable but not necessarily the combination of all the other variables.
    .
    If i had the time I would love to push this data through some modeling software and correct for things such as education level of the parents, income, and parental involvement and reassess the results of the impact of unions. Until this happens however your analysis, though appreciated and more likely to be correct than pure anecdote, should still be taken with a grain of salt.

  • newfreedomblog

    As usual pattysartor cannot defend the outrageous abuse of the political system by Unions, so he will as I figured he would attack the Koch Brothers.
    .
    But, who is Jane Mayer. The purveyor of the so-called “facts” on the Koch Brothers?
    .
    Fact #1 – Mayer is known for not only lying out right about facts but use terminology which sounds perverse, but in actuality is nothing more than mundane information.
    .
    Fact #2 – Mayer is also famous now after writing a scathing book about so called “covert operations” by the Bush Administration but has since been outed for her lies about the CIA since Obama had reams of secret CIA documents released. Most of what Mayer described as “covert” actions by the CIA didn’t turn out to be such.
    .
    Mayer exposed by Bush II Sr speech writer does bring out the facts. Marc Thiessen said the following about Mayer recently;
    .

    “But her work, Thiessen notes,
    is largely dependent on sources who were opposed to the president’s policy or were on the periphery of the CIA interrogation program. By depending on such sources, she got this story wrong. And if her account of the writing of a presidential speech was so defective, how can we trust her accounts of what supposedly happened in CIA black sites thousands of miles away?

    Indeed, this is the reason why Mayer and others on the left are attacking my book: I have brought facts to the table, information that undermines the torture narrative they have made careers of spinning. For years, critics like Mayer could level any unfounded accusation they wanted against the CIA, confident that those who could challenge them were powerless to respond — because the answers were classified. But then Barack Obama declassified reams of documents revealing the secrets of the CIA program. He did enormous damage to our national security, but he also liberated those of us familiar with the intelligence on CIA interrogations to speak out. As a result, Mayer is no longer free to make baseless accusations without challenge or consequence.
    .
    No wonder she’s upset.”

    .
    Read more: http://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/lachlan-markay/2010/04/14/marc-thiessen-exposes-new-yorker-reporter-jane-mayers-dishonesty-enh#ixzz1EY1ZbJRo
    .
    AEI had the following to report on Mayer;
    .

    “Mayer declares categorically that “the Bush administration’s interrogation policies . . . yielded no appreciable intelligence benefit.” Really? She must not have been listening when Barack Obama’s director of national intelligence, Admiral Dennis Blair, declared: “High value information came from [CIA] interrogations in which those methods were used and provided a deeper understanding of the al Qaeda organization that was attacking this country.”
    .
    She must have forgotten that when she herself interviewed Leon Panetta, Obama’s CIA director, he told her, “Important information was gathered from these detainees. [The CIA program] provided information that was acted upon.” And she must have forgotten her 2007 interview (also quoted in the Panetta article) with John Brennan (now Obama’s homeland-security advisor), in which she asked him if enhanced interrogation techniques “were necessary to keep America safe,” and he replied: “Would the U.S. be handicapped if the CIA was not, in fact, able to carry out these types of detention and debriefing activities? I would say yes.”

    .
    So what about the Koch Brothers? Yes they are Libertarians. But as Mayer writes, they are somehow closet anarchists who want to destroy this country. Far from it. They like so many others have seen how this country has been grown in size and scope far beyond the original intent.
    .
    The problem is liberals would love to be the only ones who have powerful lobbyists and deep money pockets in Washington. Fortunately, the Koch Brothers have equalized the scales. Do they contribute to the Cato Institute or the Heritage Foundation? I would bet my last dollar they do. But, what is the difference between what the Koch Brothers have done and what George Soros and his kind have done now for longer than anyone can remember? The only difference, the Koch’s support more libertarian / conservative organizations. Soros and his rabble rousing group of misfits, the liberal agenda and their now 100′s of organizations.
    .
    To date, liberal radical organizations with the Unions have outspent and out lobbied any other conservative organization 100 fold. These are the facts.
    .
    Soon to be released, “The Truth About The Koch Brothers”. I wonder how many facts by Mayer will be found to be nothing more than lies then?

  • liberalmeltdown

    Reply to 63, here you go boys and girls:
    .
    This has been reported on real news networks. Too bad you don’t watch anything but propaganda. Fraudulent Dr. notes:
    .

  • Paul-no not that one

    STATEMENT FROM GREEN BAY PACKER CHARLES WOODSON IN
    SUPPORT OF WORKING FAMILIES IN WISCONSIN
    .
    Last week I was proud when many of my current and former teammates announced their support for the working families fighting for their rights in Wisconsin. Today I am honored to join with them.
    Thousands of dedicated Wisconsin public workers provide vital services for Wisconsin citizens. They are the teachers, nurses and child care workers who take care of us and our families. These hard working people are under an unprecedented attack to take away their basic rights to have a voice and collectively bargain at work.
    .
    It is an honor for me to play for the Super Bowl Champion Green Bay Packers and be a part of the Green Bay and Wisconsin communities. I am also honored as a member of the NFL Players Association to stand together with working families of Wisconsin and organized labor in their fight against this attempt to hurt them by targeting unions. I hope those leading the attack will sit down with Wisconsin’s public workers and discuss the problems Wisconsin faces, so that together they can truly move Wisconsin forward.
    .
    –Charles Woodson, Green Bay Packers cornerback and one of the team’s elected representatives to the players union
    .
    Sure Woodson doesn’t have the juice of Samuel Joseph Wurzelbacher but still…

  • liberalmeltdown

    OK, I would like to hear a logical argument for allowing this type of corruption to continue. HINT: a logical argument is not one that says “well you did it too, nanny, nanny.”

    “The Teachers Unions can and do. Far too often, new contracts have been acts of collusion rather than negotiation–with the unions wielding the extremely powerful sledgehammer of campaign contributions and eager bodies to staff phone banks, leaflet and go door to door. Essentially, public sector unions have the ability to sit on both sides of the table–their managers are their employees: another profound structural dysfunction. In some larger cities, public employees make up a disproportionate percentage of all voters, an estimated 20% in New York (and, believe me, teachers are among the most assiduous of voters). It is no wonder that politicians of both parties in union states have gifted these unions egregious benefits, especially in areas–like work rules–that don’t show up in the budget.”

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Rusty you’re hilarious!
    .
    You use Newsbusters to attack the reporter Jane Mayer.
    .

    The Media Research Center (MRC) is a conservative content analysis organization based in Alexandria, Virginia, founded in 1987 by conservative activist L. Brent Bozell III. Its stated mission is “to bring balance to the news media”,[1] and the MRC catalogs and reports on media bias in the United States press. The organization believes that “liberal bias in the media does exist and undermines traditional American values”, so part of its purpose is to actively “neutralize its impact [of liberal bias] on the American political scene.”[1] MRC is widely called “conservative”.[2]

    The MRC has received financial support from several foundations, including :the Bradley, Scaife, Olin, Castle Rock, Carthage and JM foundations.[3] It also receives funding from ExxonMobil.[4]

    .
    .
    Richard Mellon Scaife, mentioned in the article is one of the funders of Newsbusters! He is controller of the Carthage Foundation and the Sarah Scaife Foundation.
    .
    So, you’ve shown me that an organization run by close allies of the Koch brothers claim that there is a bias against the Koch brothers.
    .
    Why don’t you just ask David Koch and quote him?

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “cannot defend the outrageous abuse of the political system by Unions”
    .
    That is because you have no presented outrageous abuse of the political system by Unions. You have presented that unions, like anti-union corporations, donate money to political causes.
    .
    How about this Rusty cannot defend the outrageous abuse of the political system by Koch brothers and, therefore, wants to blame Unions for something.
    .
    That would be accurate, but, would cost you your weekly bonus opposes your personal belief that workers using their first amendment rights is the root of all evil.

  • 53_3

    Here is an article that summarizes the issues that I have pointed out repeatedly:
    .
    http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/02/20/ravitch.teachers.blamed/index.html

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “The same tactics used by union thugs are used right her in the swamp to intimidate anyone who disagrees with them or their position.”
    .
    Wait, you are saying that union thugs go to their opposition and read the New York Times and the New Yorker magazine to them?
    .
    Please send a link to when and where union thugs, in order intimidate people into joining read newspapers out loud.
    .
    For some reason, I strongly suspect that you are full of crap.

  • 53_3

    Oh, liberal:
    .
    Read the article linked to in 77 and pay particular attention to what states have been recognized as the best education systems.
    .
    Another point:
    .
    You have to demonize them to win this argument, just like you do in your quote, which, is, incidentally, parroting Joe Klein.

  • 53_3

    Oh, and a little truthful information on civil disobedience by legislators:
    .
    Note the reference to 1994:
    http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/02/18/awol.legislators/index.html

  • apr2563

    Even though you keep posting this, it doesn’t make it true.
    .
    See prior depunking of this Koch/Brietbart myth:
    40.3 and 43.2

  • 53_3

    That’s not proof, you idjit!
    .
    That’s a Teabagger holding a sign intended to be sarcastic!
    .
    Try again…

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    In the spring of 1946, a national railway strike, unprecedented in the nation’s history, brought virtually all passenger and freight lines to a standstill for over a month. When the railway workers turned down a proposed settlement, Truman seized control of the railways and threatened to draft striking workers into the armed forces.[92] While delivering a speech before Congress requesting authority for this plan, Truman received word that the strike had been settled on his terms.[92] He announced this development to Congress on the spot and received a tumultuous ovation that was replayed for weeks on newsreels. Although the resolution of the crippling railway strike made for stirring political theater, it actually cost Truman politically: his proposed solution was seen by many as high-handed; and labor voters, already wary of Truman’s handling of workers’ issues, were deeply alienated.[91]

    .
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_S._Truman#First_term_.281945.E2.80.931949.29
    .
    Back in 1946, first of all unions conducted national strikes. Second of all a federal government takeover of the railroads was considered acceptable.
    .
    Those are the unions which Anne’s grandparents organized for.
    .
    By comparison, we have little kittens for unions today.

  • 53_3

    LIberal:
    .
    I want you to look at my comment at 57.
    .
    Also, my reply to you at 72.
    .
    A case in point:
    .
    I did break comity and called you an ‘idjit’. I won’t do it again, however;
    .
    Let me point out that you are blatantly propagandizing and doing exactly what the teachers are angry about in the article I linked to at 77.
    .
    Explain to me why you feel it necessary to attempt to use a video of Teabaggers with sarcastic signage to tar the teachers with corruption.
    .
    Explain yourself!

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Pretty good slander you have there since there is a resemblance between the photo and the real Dr. Beamsley.
    .
    http://findadoctor.uwhealth.org/findadoctor/Provider.action?_sourcePage=%2Fresults.jsp&id=5482
    .
    The problem being is that the real Dr. Beamsley had only graduate in 1999 and would have needed more than eighteen months before getting his license.
    .
    Nice trick though.
    .
    It really looked like the same man from that angle.
    .
    I am dying to see the real Mark Beamsley sue and win for defamation of character.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    From 53_3 article:

    Now conservative governors and mayors want to abolish teachers’ right to due process, their seniority, and — in some states — their collective bargaining rights. Right-to-work states do not have higher scores than states with strong unions. Actually, the states with the highest performance on national tests are Massachusetts, Connecticut, New Jersey, Vermont, and New Hampshire, where teachers belong to unions that bargain collectively for their members.

    .
    So, all I know is that unionized teachers teach best and in Germany, the unions have membership on the board of directors and help pick managers and we all know that German cars made by uber powerful German labor are the best.
    .
    So, maybe the problem isn’t that the unions for teachers are at both ends of the negotiating table but, instead, that for General Motors and Chrysler, unlike Mercedes – and didn’t need a government rescue – don’t have a seat on both sides of the negotiating table.
    .
    So, far, anti-union arguments have fallen flat on their ass.

  • liberalmeltdown

    The quote is from the article on this blog 53. You don’t have a comment at 72. Your comment at 57 is irrelevant to the teachers union bargaining with its own employees that it contributes millions of dollars in campaign funds to get elected.
    .
    The fact remains that teachers are taking sick days, getting paid for them, in order to stand around and complain.
    .
    So teachers are fed with attacks on their profession? Since when? They get everything they ask for. Maybe they should ask their union, their administrators where all the money goes? They don’t care where it goes as long as they get free health care and don’t have to contribute a dime to their plan, like everybody else in America has to contribute. Please don’t cite the LA Teachers Union for anything. They are the worst.
    .
    Then we are left with blaming the children, isn’t that nice? And of course, parents. How about we focus on pop culture, the influence of Hollywood, the influence of crap music that undermines traditional values like education. How about that?

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Meltodwn,
    .
    Explain to me why Mercedes, with an uber powerful union which has a seat at the board of directors are making such kick ass cars when GM, with a far, far weaker union, are making cars nobody wants to buy and needs the government to help keep them from closing their doors as well as why the unionized teachers are kicking non-unionized teacher’s butts if unions are just corrupt organizations dedicated to sloth rather than at least as interested in quality as managers, if not far more so?

  • liberalmeltdown

    PS, the top quality car company, with a long history of quality and performance is comparable to unionized teachers. In what universe?
    .
    You would have to have the Union members at Mercedes contributing millions to help elect their representatives (which they would vote in) sit on the board that bargains with their union. Then their salary would have to be paid by an outside group that has no representation at the table (taxpayers).
    .

  • elwaitactu8

    So how do you know that unionized teachers teach best?
    .
    How do you explain this? Are unionized states more appealing and therefore better teachers go there? Is there significant relocation distances for teaching?
    .
    Do union benefits encourage teachers to work harder?

  • elwaitactu8

    Is the argument that teachers’ unions should exist because they create better teachers, or is the argument that teachers’ unions should exist because workers deserve the right to organize and fight for their rights?

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    You would have to have the Union members at Mercedes contributing millions to help elect their representatives (which they would vote in) sit on the board that bargains with their union.
    .

    Co-determination is a practice whereby the employees have a role in management of a company. The word is a literal translation from the German word Mitbestimmung. Co-determination rights are different in different legal environments. In some countries, like the USA, the workers have virtually no role in management of companies, and in some, like Germany, their role is more important. The first serious co-determination laws began in Germany. At first there was only worker participation in management in the coal and steel industries. But in 1974, a general law was passed mandating that worker representatives hold seats on the boards of all companies employing over 500 people
    In systems with co-determination workers in large companies usually form special bodies – works councils and in smaller companies elect worker representatives. These act as intermediaries in exercising the workers rights of being informed or consulted with on decisions concerning employee status and rights. They also elect or select worker representatives in managerial and supervisory organs of companies.

    In systems with co-determination the employees are given seats in a board of directors in one-tier management systems or seats in a supervisory board and sometimes management board in two-tier management systems.

    .
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-determination
    .

    Mitbestimmungsgesetz (in English, Codetermination Act) of 1976 is a German law which requires companies of over 2000 employees to have half the supervisory board of directors as representatives of workers.

    The Act was passed on May 4 after long consultations and debates in Parliament (the Bundestag). It applies to all German capital companies, including public companies (Aktiengesellschaft), cooperatives (eingetragene Genossenschaft), private limited companies (Gesellschaft mit beschränkter Haftung) and partnerships (Kommanditgesellschaft auf Aktien) if they have over 2000 employees.

    The principle is to having almost parity of representation between employee representatives and shareholder representatives on the supervisory board (Aufsichtsrat). Germany company law has two levels of boards of directors. The supervisory board then elects a management board which leads the company. The head of the supervisory board is always a shareholder representative who has two votes in case of a deadlock.

    .
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitbestimmungsgesetz
    .
    “In what universe?”
    .
    This universe.
    .
    You meant to say In what country?
    .
    The one which is kicking our ass in terms of making the best cars in the world, even by your own assessment.
    .
    I am sure that the German unions did a great deal to campaign for Social Democrats who made this happen.
    .
    But, you prefer a bankrupt anti-union GM and Chrysler making cars that nobody wants to drive than a union controlled Mercedes making cars everybody wants to drive.

  • freeinpa

    Many Woodson should care as much about the former greats to come before him. These guys are whining about how the owners are going to take back money “from them”. The NFL union like the public employees union is interested in one thing and one thing only; collecting as much of somebody else’s money for as long as they can. The guys who made it possible for Woodson to collect millions are suffering from injuries, bad insurance and many lose their homes. The NFLPA could ncare less what happens to these guys but complain they aren’t getting their “fair share”

    And some retired players, who played in past NFL eras, have not benefited from some of the benefits and pensions of the modern era. Hence, they lack adequate disability, rehabilitation, health insurance and retirement programs to allow for, and maintain a quality of life and financial security for themselves and their families.

    Today, as a retired NFL player, many players find themselves with physical limitations, medical issues or other hardships. Many older retired players are unable and cannot cover the medical and other expenses needed for the treatment of the effects of their football related injuries.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again, the far right has a bad habit of forgetting that the rest of the world exists and seem totally unable to imagine that they have had the same problems we have had of expensive health care, crowded highways, labor-management disputes, crime, daycare, economic slowdowns, expensive college tuition and have found very successful government solutions such as national health care, government created high speed rail, co-determination, different methods of law enforcement than our own, stimulus packages and government funded college education.
    .
    But, unfortunately, conservatives believe that Americans are a corrupt and evil people.
    .
    German unions get a seat at management. German companies thrive. But conservatives are sure that, if this happens, corrupt and evil Americans will ruin the company in hours. Other countries have national health care, but conservatives believe that corrupt and evil Americans will go to the doctor for fun and go so often that the country will go bankrupt. Conservatives believe that, even though everybody else in the world gets a free or very cheap college education, Americans will be lazy and evil and corrupt and use up the tuition money drinking beer for four years.
    .
    Tell me psychiatric meltdown, why to conservatives hate Americans so much?
    .
    I mean, we may have done some nasty things to the native Americans and took a century to give up the English habit of slavery, but, I mean, does that mean we are such awful people?
    .
    Why do you hate Americans so much, Meltdown?

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “The left complains about corporate interests buying favors in government but for decades teachers have been “negotiating” with other union members or politicians their unions have been sending money.”
    .
    Unions are about one person, one vote while corporations are about one share one vote.
    .
    Hence, unions are democratic and corporations are plutocratic.
    .
    Plutocratic may be a perfectly good way to build cars or manage buildings, but, government is about democracy and if We the people join a union and our union participates in how to create a more perfect union of states donate to candidates using our labor unions, that is an extension of democracy.
    .
    OTOH, nearly all liberals would gladly have government financed campaigns so that nobody can buy our government.
    .
    But since management is buying politicians through the Tea Party, the unions better buy some, too.

  • liberalmeltdown

    Give it up PS.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Give it up PS.”
    .
    I will not give up on Americans!
    .
    Take your anti-American BS someplace else!

  • liberalmeltdown

    Are you on or off you meds tonight? I can’t tell.
    .
    If you think that the rest of the world is so great, then you have lots of choices. Pick a spot. Choose your version of socialism that you like, and enjoy.
    .
    The one thing that makes America unique and great, you want to destroy. Freedom. Freedom means free markets, PS. Freedom does not mean the government dictating what you must do, what you must buy, when you can have that brain tumor removed. I suggest as soon as possible.

  • doctorowl

    Continuing the above list of things that freedom does not mean…

    Freedom means the government not dictating when you may or may not collectively bargain. Which side is Governor Walker on regarding this aspect of freedom?

  • liberalmeltdown

    More evidence of phony Dr notes. This time with confessions from Doctors that they wrote off work notes for protesters.
    .
    Looks like this story isn’t going away. .
    .
    http://punditpress.blogspot.com/2011/02/university-of-wisconsin-department-of.html
    .
    Doctors from numerous hospitals set up a station near the Capitol on Saturday to provide notes to explain public employees’ absences from work. One of those doctors was Lou Sanner, who practices family medicine at the University of Wisconsin School of Medicine and Public Health. Sanner said he had given out hundreds of notes to protesters and many he spoke with seemed to be suffering from stress.

  • liberalmeltdown

    http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/wisconsin-doctors-offering-fake-sick-notes-for-strikers/
    .
    But Ann Althouse, a law professor at Wisconsin-Madison, says she personally spoke to a doctor who is engaged in the practice and defends it. So, I’m inclined to believe that this is in fact going on but don’t have any idea how widespread the practice is.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    If you think that the rest of the world is so great, then you have lots of choices. Pick a spot. Choose your version of socialism that you like, and enjoy.

    .
    This is coming from a California resident who loves Texas but will not get off his lazy butt to move from the supposed oppressive California liberals to the heaven of conservative Texas.
    .
    All you have to do is learn the Texas drawl and stop using the word “dude” and nobody will know that you are not a Texas native.
    .
    Yet you are saying that all people left of the Tea Party should should learn a new language, learn a new culture, go a place where – if you are Asian American, Latino American, Native American or African American you will look like a foreigner for generations to come.
    .
    “…PS. Freedom does not mean the government dictating what you must do, what you must buy, when you can have that brain tumor removed.”
    .
    Freedom does mean you dictating to the governmentyou have that brain tumor removed. You vote for somebody who will use government resources if needed to make sure that your brain tumor gets removed, then freedom means that the government does what you tell it to do
    .
    If brain tumors persist too long, you may end up in such a mental state that you may end up joining the Tea Party.
    .
    Freedom does not mean the your employer dictating what you must do without your ability to challenge some aspects by joining a union.
    .
    Psychiatric Meltdown, you believe in the freedom of corporations to own people while liberals believe in the freedom of the people to own the government and to own corporations.
    .
    Now, move from California to Texas and find a large corporation to tell you what to do. I will stay here in the very blue New York and will, very happily tell my government what to do for us.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Psychiatric Meltdown,

    If doctors, who earn in the top 2% are so eager to support this strike which they know may involve paying higher taxes it means that taxpayers are willing to pay higher amounts for higher quality state workers and that they believe that state workers are worth the money.
    .
    People lied to help Martin Luther King’s protests. So, why is it so evil to you that people support something you oppose.
    .
    Just because you hate American workers and hate American students doesn’t mean that the rest of us have to have your hatred of Americans.
    .
    Now, move your ass from California to Texas and enjoy a 25% pay cut in a low wage job being thrilled to know that the government is not getting taxes out of you.

  • thethirdcell

    If American workers took a page out of European labor unions, most of the people blogging wouldn’t be complaining about pension disparity. In Europe they get pensions with COLA, they get 100% medical coverage and a host of other benefits.

    The American worker has done this to themselves by rejecting unionizing and now they are the victims of corporate bullying.

    You only have yourselves to blame. Stop whining, form a union and get the same benefits.

    I have no sympathy for a bunch of losers!

  • gysgt213

    thethirdcell: Don’t be too hard on us. After all we fall time and time again for every demonization of the middle class and poor we can. Years ago it was the welfare queens driving gold cadillacs, eating steaks and generally living it up on taxpayer dollars. We fell for that and now there are more people of food stamps and or medicaid then ever.
    .
    But those were fun times for all here in the states, because we just knew when we got rid of those welfare kings and queens all our problems would be solved.

  • freeinpa

    “Unions are about one person, one vote while corporations are about one share one vote”
    .
    Yes that explains the unions wanting to get rid of secret ballots and have forced union membership–yeah democracy in action!~
    .
    “OTOH, nearly all liberals would gladly have government financed campaigns so that nobody can buy our government.”
    .
    Yes and the laws and entitlements passed are not paybacks to allied voter groups.

    .
    Still typing with one hand Rev Jim

  • pintortwo

    Way back in the thread, Newfree asked for links between the Koch brothers and the Tea party movement. A bit of research showed the bros to be founders of one of the largest TP groups- the Americans for Prosperity, David Koch is its Chairman. There are many articles on their profound influence on the TP, conservative infrastructure and popular memes, but this gives a good summary:
    .
    “(The Tea Party) is mostly composed of passionate, well-meaning people who think they are fighting elite power, unaware that they have been organised by the very interests they believe they are confronting. We now have powerful evidence that the movement was established and has been guided with the help of money from billionaires and big business. Much of this money, as well as much of the strategy and staffing, were provided by two brothers who run what they call “the biggest company you’ve never heard of”.
    .
    Charles and David Koch own 84% of Koch Industries, the second-largest private company in the United States. It runs oil refineries, coal suppliers, chemical plants and logging firms, and turns over roughly $100bn a year; the brothers are each worth $21bn. The company has had to pay tens of millions of dollars in fines and settlements for oil and chemical spills and other industrial accidents. The Kochs want to pay less tax, keep more profits and be restrained by less regulation. Their challenge has been to persuade the people harmed by this agenda that it’s good for them.
    .
    ..(At) the 2009 Defending the American Dream summit, convened by a group called Americans for Prosperity (AFP). The film shows David Koch addressing the summit. “Five years ago,” he explains, “my brother Charles and I provided the funds to start Americans for Prosperity. It’s beyond my wildest dreams how AFP has grown into this enormous organisation.”
    (…)
    AFP is one of several groups established by the Koch brothers. They set up the Cato Institute, the first free-market thinktank in the United States. They also founded the Mercatus Center…
    .
    The Kochs have lavished money on more than 30 other advocacy groups, including the Heritage Foundation, the Manhattan Institute, the George C Marshall Institute, the Reason Foundation and the American Enterprise Institute… The Kochs ensure that their money works for them. “If we’re going to give a lot of money,” David Koch explained.., “we’ll make darn sure they spend it in a way that goes along with our intent. And if they make a wrong turn and start doing things we don’t agree with, we withdraw funding.” ”
    - link

  • pintortwo

    To show how influential the Koch’s Americans for Prosperity is with the TP movement, see this (with video)
    .
    (David) Koch, who founded Americans for Prosperity with his brother (was filmed) as organizers who run AFP’s 25 state-level outposts touted their success in mobilizing dozens of tea party events across the nation:
    .
    AFP CALIFORNIA: We helped organize huge tea parties all throughout the state. And on April 15, Tax Day, over 10,000 Californians joined us on the steps of the state capital and we held one of the largest tea parties in the country. . . .
    .
    AFP MICHIGAN: … We have held the largest tea party in the state …
    .
    AFP GEORGIA: … the largest Tax Day tea party in the nation on April 15 …
    .
    AFP OKLAHOMA: … we’ve held 29 tea parties …
    .
    AFP MARYLAND: … we organized dozens of tea parties …
    .
    DAVID KOCH: This is a phenomenal success in my judgment. Eight hundred thousand activists from nothing five years ago. This is a remarkable achievement. And we’re being effective in so many ways.

    - link

  • 1manfrombearriver

    62.1.1

    Replying to Patrick

    Clear as mud?

    Unions are about compliance, not motivation! Yes, Herzberg is old stuff, but classic and has validity still if you understand all the nuances.

    The role of unions and their traditional philosophy is competing with those who have the responsibility (to motivate) – the school board, administrations, parents, etc.

    So teacher unions no matter how altruistic they are, meddle when they insert themselves into the dynamics of the classroom. The ol’ saying, you cannot serve multiple masters? Also, the unions are competing with the student’s needs when they insert themselves trying to assure the teacher’s interest. The scheme and bargaining agreement make the students secondary. The structural logic is incontrovertible. With teachers unions their is an inherent conflict of interest. Doesn’t matter what you suggest. If you diagram it out – the conflict is as clear as new mountain stream water.

    So the whole concept of the union in the modern era is mudding up the organizational leadership, management, communication, cooperation, collaboration that is necessary. Your brand that you seem to rave onward about is ol’ medicine and it is time to reformulate it.

    Would you want to bargain with your neighbor to meet the needs of your child? That is added dimension. Now if you want to pay your neighbor to babysit your child and are willing to pay a bargained fee that is fine. But a contract in which they then obtain legal guardianship levels of authority over both you and your child?

    So the role and purpose of unions has to be totally re-conceived or eliminated if it cannot resolve how it interferes with the operations of organizations. It adds to the cost of operations, which in the end, means fewer employees or less competitive economic positions. More important it means fewer resources for other social needs in the community.

    I am not an expert on unions and do not claim to be. My comments are meant to add to the discussion, not muddy the water. My sense is that you have be intelligent and eloquent in your argument, but in the end you are illusionary in your efforts to solve a problem, because you simply, and very clearly, do not have an interest in acknowledging that a problem and conflict exist.

    The problem is simple and clear to me, unions are increasingly becoming a hindrance and irrelevant. If they cannot improve the performance and competitiveness of an organization then they will be out the door. The unions would not keep a vendor who is too expensive or hinders their operations?

    My challenge to you, what are you willing to concede? If you cannot acknowledge the short comings of your own positions then you eventually will become an enemy of the very employees you claim to be supporting.

    I eventually see Federal and local regulations replacing the need of unions and to some extent that has already happened. So your hanging on to incomplete chain of logic, just means you will be leaving your clients/members hanging in the wind.

    BTW, I acknowledge there are issues that need to be resolved, but as we acknowledge and overcome those challenges we can become better and more robust as individuals and organizations and not with waning and failing concepts and organizations.

    Unions are becoming increasingly irrelevant in the eyes of the public and you need to postulate why that is. Otherwise despite your verbosity you are irrelevant in the end and it all becomes nothing more than a battle of power and dominion for you – not resolution or redemption for anyone.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Yes that explains the unions wanting to get rid of secret ballots…”
    .
    How they vote is not important. that they vote rather than take orders from shareholders.
    .
    “… and have forced union membership.”
    .
    Just as we have forced taxes including how I have to pay for a war I disagreed all along and we have forced conscription into the armed forced, known as a draft during some wars.
    .
    The majority win and the minority have to go along . This is called democracy.
    .
    That is, unless we only tax Republicans who were over the age of 18 in 2000 to elect Bush for the Iraq War and pay it all off now while Democrats and others who always knew it was a bad idea pay $0 and we can have a cafeteria system of government – take what you want but pay for it yourself.
    .
    Still high on meth, Freak, or is this really what you believe in?

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Clear as mud?”
    .
    Let me make it clear that I attacked your argument, not you. In debate, that is fair and reasonable.
    .
    But you make some assertions about unions that do not seem accurate.
    .
    First I have always found unions very interesting and, although never being in a situation to be a union member, have heard much about them from many news sources people I have known who have been union members including one relative.
    .
    Second that relative is a public school teacher
    .
    “So teacher unions no matter how altruistic they are, meddle when they insert themselves into the dynamics of the classroom.”
    .
    Actually, the matter at hand is when teachers call in the unions due to the administration inserting themselves between the student and the teacher.
    .
    The reaction I object to is the more common one of saying that there should be no standards for rating teachers. The less common but growing idea among teachers unions is that teachers combined create the standards based upon the curriculum and studies about the demographics impacting test scores. Since the teachers union include some members who will get spectacular reviews from such a system and others who will be shown the door due to the result all side by side, creating the standards, the standards would be at least as objective if not more so that if it were written by paper pushers who have never been inside the classroom.
    .
    To a school system, an individual teacher is like a cog on a wheel – totally replaceable.
    .
    So, the individual teacher can not keep even the most altruistic paper pusher from getting between themselves and their students.
    .
    This, actually, applies to all cases of unionization.
    .
    If your business or government entity if of, ten people, the manager can not function with even one or two of his/her subordinates disagreeing.
    .
    When it is an organization of 100 or more, not one employee below the rank of manager has any control over the situation.
    .
    “With teachers unions their is an inherent conflict of interest.”
    .
    Only if you believe teachers are lazy people seeking the quickest paycheck.
    .
    If you believe teachers get job satisfaction from knowing that their students have learned then the interests of the teachers union and the administration are totally identical and just a debate about method.
    .
    “Would you want to bargain with your neighbor to meet the needs of your child? That is added dimension.”
    .
    This metaphor is unclear to me since unions do not get involved in parent-teacher meetings and union or no union, parents can not, by themselves, fire their child’s teacher.
    .
    “So the role and purpose of unions has to be totally re-conceived or eliminated if it cannot resolve how it interferes with the operations of organizations.”
    .
    Ask Mercedes executives how the unions are “ill conceived”.
    .
    According to many sources, including yours, workers, with few exceptions do not gain, but, instead, lose job satisfaction producing a low quality product or a low quality result.
    .
    If the number who wish to work is, say, 90%, who strongly prefer higher quality then the union will represent people who wish to improve the product and assist management by creating higher quality results.
    .
    “If you cannot acknowledge the short comings of your own positions then you eventually will become an enemy of the very employees you claim to be supporting.”
    .
    I don’t get this.
    .
    If you said that I cannot acknowledge the short comings of my own positions then I eventually will be boring for you to debate against, that makes sense.
    .
    If the teachers do not want to have a teacher’s union, they can dissolve it. I am completely unrelated to this.
    .
    “I eventually see Federal and local regulations replacing the need of unions and to some extent that has already happened”. So, if a worker in a factory is not getting the vacation he was promised above and beyond the two weeks mandated by law he will – call his congressman rather than a shop steward?
    .
    I can agree with you that OSHA has taken all of the union and non-union workers irrefutable claims of preventable danger and made them into a codified system and minimum wage (if it were about tripple what it is so that one can support a family on it) are examples of universal complaints taken on by government but, unions are the mid sized groups. That is, they involve an acquaintance of yours who, by doing the same job as you understands your situation unlike your mayor, state senator or congressman, but, with the collective backing of everybody else, has the ability to enforce change.
    .
    “Unions are becoming increasingly irrelevant in the eyes of the public and you need to postulate why that is.”
    .
    The loss of manufacturing jobs.
    .
    The correlation between the percent of manufacturing jobs and the percentage of the population which are union is almost 100%. Union membership was in the 1950s was about 30% and now down to 12.5%, but, manufacturing had dropped by an even larger percentage.
    .
    What’s amazing is that the loss of manufacturing jobs didn’t destroy unions.
    .
    Some – perhaps not many – manufacturing jobs will be returning over the next couple of decades and, with it, some increase in union membership.
    .
    Let me ask you this: you are a part of a 250 member organization at your workplace. 190 do exactly the same job you do.
    .
    Which is better when you are treated unfairly:
    .
    One all by your lonesome you plead with your manager not to treat you unfairly and hope wasting his/her time will not get you fired?
    .
    Or
    .
    All 190 of you are bound together by collective bargaining which included the rules which forbid your manager from doing such an unfair thing and you tell your shop steward who makes all of the arguments on your behalf while you don’t stop work or use up your break time?
    .
    If you prefer one, then, I guess you are unemployed at random intervals at the will and whim of the managers and can never negotiate for a better wage.
    .
    You, obviously, do not approve of the second since the second is what unions are all about. Screw over any of the 190 replaceable, faceless workers and do not resolve it all 190 are gone and management has nobody to and nothing to manage.

  • fhmadvocat

    Oh yes, merit pay. But how do you tell a good teacher from a bad teacher? How do you compare a teacher working with poor kids in the inner city who is working hard to a lazy teacher in the suburbs whose kids are motivated by their parents? Whose kids do you think are going to score higher on standardized tests?

    When I look back at my father’s experience, I find it quite interesting. He went from a “suburban” school where he was considered an average student to an inner city school where suddenly he was a genius!
    This was in the 1940′s, not the 1960′s and he went from a country school to an inner city school in a poor neighborhood.

    I remember my father telling me about a lousy teacher he had in high school and how that teacher was able to fool visitors to her class that she was actually teaching anything. And this was in the early 1950′s, well before the “Liberals” took over our schools and ruined our children.

    Despite having a lousy math teacher in high school, he did okay. He eventually earned a bachelor’s in math and chemistry and later earned a Ph.D in Chemistry. Considering he was an African-American who went to segregated schools until college and having earned his doctorate in the mid 1960′s in a hard science is quite impressive (However, his math was never that good when I was growing up as a kid.) LOL

    The problem is we live in a society that does not value education. We praised those who make lots of money, no matter whether they earn it through hard work or not. We sometimes praise the guy who starts his own business and works it from the ground up, but we give bigger praise to the guy who makes millions manipulating numbers. We worship our star athletes, but, as a country, we are suspious of those who are well educated.

    When was the last time we elected a President with a Ph.D.? When was the last time we elected a president who came out of the educational field? Why do some of us love politicians, who feel the need to show us that they are “dumb” like the rest of us?

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