In the Arena

Wisconsin: The Hemlock Revolution

Revolutions everywhere–in the middle east, in the middle west. But there is a difference: in the middle east, the protesters are marching for democracy; in the middle west, they’re protesting against it. I mean, Isn’t it, well, a bit ironic that the protesters in Madison, blocking the state senate chamber, are chanting “Freedom, Democracy, Union” while trying to prevent a vote? Isn’t it ironic that the Democratic Senators have fled the democratic process? Isn’t it interesting that some of those who–rightly–protest the assorted Republican efforts to stymie majority rule in the U.S. Senate are celebrating the Democratic efforts to stymie the same in  the Wisconsin Senate?

An election was held in Wisconsin last November. The Republicans won. In a democracy, there are consequences to elections and no one, not even the public employees unions, are exempt from that. There are no guarantees that labor contracts, including contracts governing the most basic rights of unions, can’t be renegotiated, or terminated for that matter. We hold elections to decide those basic parameters. And it seems to me that Governor Scott Walker’s basic requests are modest ones–asking public employees to contribute more to their pension and health care plans, though still far less than most private sector employees do. He is also trying to limit the unions’ abilities to negotiate work rules–and this is crucial when it comes to the more efficient operation of government in a difficult time. When I covered local government in New York 30 years ago, the school janitors (then paid a robust $60,000 plus per year) had negotiated the “right” to mop the cafeteria floors only once a week. And we all know about the near-impossibility of getting criminal and morally questionable–to say nothing of less than competent–teachers fired. The negotiation of such contracts were acts of collusion rather than of mediation. Government officials were, in effect, bribing their most activist constituents.

Public employees unions are an interesting hybrid. Industrial unions are organized against the might and greed of ownership. Public employees unions are organized against the might and greed…of the public? Despite their questionable provenance, public unions can serve an important social justice role, guaranteeing that a great many underpaid workers–school bus drivers, janitors (outside of New York City), home health care workers–won’t be too severely underpaid. That role will be kept intact in Wisconsin. In any given negotiation, I’m rooting for the union to win the highest base rates of pay possible…and for management to win the least restrictive work rules and guidelines governing how much truly creative public employees can be paid.

But we’ve had far too many state legislatures, of both parties, that have been cowed by the political power of the unions and enacted contracts that force state and city governments to be run for the benefit of their employees, rather than for their citizens. This situation is most egregious in far too many school districts across the nation. The events in Wisconsin are a rebalancing of power that, after decades of flush times and lax negotiating, had become imbalanced. That is also something that, from time to time, happens in a democracy.

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  • ricardo4max

    Jk Congratulations for your courage. Maybe the media is ito remove their rose colored glasses.
    Now let’s get the truth out about Obama.

  • rdw56

    Wow, you know it’s bad when Joe takes same side as conservatives. Joe must also sense the potential PR debacle as very well paid teachers with outstanding benefits claim hardship in this era of 10% unemployment, layoffs pay freezes and benefit rollbacks.

    The majority are going to recoil at the arrogance and greed of the unions as well as at those who support them. This is not going to help Obama or the Democrat party even a little bit.

  • newfreedomblog

    “Freedom, Democracy, Union” while trying to prevent a vote?”

    .
    Shocked and amazed, Joe Klein challenges his leftist friends.
    .

  • ricardo4max

    I meant to say that maybe the media is beginning to remove their rose colored glasses and see what liberals aka Democrats aka progressives are really all about.

  • ricardo4max

    Right you are. It is only serving to reveal Obama’s and his lapdog unions’ true nature and agenda.

  • jsfox

    Good grief what is about the reporting here on what is going on the Wisconsin that seems to be missing the entire point. Not to mention presenting one side of the issue.

    1) Last year the unions negotiated $100 million in concessions with the state. Who killed it? The Republicans.

    The reason state workers are so outraged by Walker’s actions, Kind said, is because they spent all last year negotiating and making $100 million in concessions with then-Democratic Gov. Jim Doyle only to have Republicans state legislators kill that bill then have a new governor come in and deny their negotiating rights.

    http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/wi_house_dems_warn_gov_walker_not_to_cross_packers.php?ref=fpb

    Next there would be no budget shortfall had not Walker pushed thru a unnecessary corporate tax cut and then turned around and increased funding on pet projects.

    In its Jan. 31 memo to legislators on the condition of the state’s budget, the Fiscal Bureau determined that the state will end the year with a balance of $121.4 million.

    To the extent that there is an imbalance — Walker claims there is a $137 million deficit — it is not because of a drop in revenues or increases in the cost of state employee contracts, benefits or pensions. It is because Walker and his allies pushed through $140 million in new spending for special-interest groups in January.

    You can read the entire report here:

    http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2011_01_31Vos&Darling.pdf

    And since when is protesting, the peole taking to the streets to say no not part of democracy in action.

  • http://shortplaysaboutrealpeople.wordpress.com Michael Maiello

    You’ve used this line about public employees being organized against the greed of the public before. I think you’re wrong though.

    A union exists to represent the needs and desires of the workers in relation to their employers. Whether the employer is Henry Ford or U.S. Steel or Bill Gates or the Wisconsin Water and Sewage Treatment Facility doesn’t matter at all.

    Employees have interests. They need fair salaries, rising wages, fair work rules, health insurance and provisions for their retirement. One way to get those things is by forming a union. It’s not the only way, of course. I am not in a union and I have those things. But it’s one way and it’s entirely legitimate.

    Working for a public agency is still work, Joe. There’s no difference between working for the NYC School System and Time Magazine. So why is it not okay for these workers to organize if they so choose?

    I really think you’ve confused working for a public agency with charity. They are not the same thing. Not even a little. I humbly suggest that you should reconsider your position here.

  • Ivy_B

    Now I understand this tweet. For those who don’t follow, KargoX or David Waldman retweeted one from Ben Smith at Politico. Words after the double lines are Waldman’s comment about it.

    KagroX (David Waldman)
    RT @benpolitico: Perhaps more compelling than that poll: The WI unions have lost Joe Klein .. || Neither the time, nor the expertise…

  • promixr

    Mr. Klein has really no clue what is currently going on- reaching back 30 years to cite some $60000 a year janitor story to make a point about what is happening now in Wisconcin is really bad journalism. And why shouldn’t a janitor make $60000 a year? In most parts of the country that is only an ‘OK’ living, the spouse will probably have to work at least part time…etc…

    These are essential workers, teachers, firefighters, steelworkers, who are protesting the governors proposals, and Democracy *begins* on election day- this governor needs to keep working for his constituents, not the Koch brothers- the billionaires who contributed heavily to his campaign…and who do not even live in the state. The backbone of America are unionized workers, not billionaires and their political puppets.

    Shame on you Time.com

  • afguy

    Public employees unions are organized against the might and greed…of the public?
    .
    How about to insure that their work or employment conditions aren’t abruptly altered every time there’s a change in the governorship or legislature?
    .
    My mother was union too and wasn’t especially treated well at retirement. But I’ve been around long enough to see why they were formed and history’s full of examples too of the management excesses that inspired unionization.
    .
    I get that you don’t like unions. The RW contingent at the top is in full-throated agreement with you – they hate unions too.
    .
    Me, I’m more of the “a pox on BOTH of their houses” belief at times. Greedy, uncaring managers and business owners vs. over-reaching unions.
    .
    Doesn’t mean I think either of them should go – it’s not a “zero-sum” game.

  • newfreedomblog

    “Next there would be no budget shortfall had not Walker pushed thru a unnecessary corporate tax cut and then turned around and increased funding on pet projects.”

    .
    Mind pointing out in the report where you can read the above? I read it all the way through and could not find any reference in the Vos/Darling Report at all. What I did find was tax after tax of increases 2011-2012 over 2009-2010.
    .
    Funny how when you read the cited articles, the claims seem to be missing.

  • kjk28

    I don’t think you can equate the Wisconsin Democratic legislators with the U.S. Senate Republicans. The Republican minority definitely tried to stymie the health care law at every turn; however, they did it within the rules. At no time (I’m sure I’ll be corrected here) did they just not show up. That’s the real story here: if your side is about to to lose a vote, run away.

  • CP in FL

    I cannot say that I am shocked that Klein is siding with his Republican corporatist masters. I do however wonder if all of those that are protesting in Wisconsin actually voted in the last election. If some of those protesters did not cast their vote, then they have no grounds on which to complain. Elections have consequences. Who knew?

  • m0mentom0ri

    Joe Klein needs a commenter handle. I’m suggesting ‘NewFreedomJoe’.
    .
    Because what else would better say, “I have neither the expertise or the time, but I’m going to pontificate anyway”?

  • afguy

    “Secret” holds? THOSE rules?

  • newfreedomblog

    No, the problem is that the Unions took a good thing and bastardized it into a get-rich-quick scheme for the Union bosses and those who support them.
    .
    The American tax payers are being held hostage now to their greedy excesses.

  • m0mentom0ri

    Flashback!
    .

    My Kind of Governator
    Posted by Joe Klein Monday, July 12, 2010 at 9:37 am
    21 Comments

    Ahhnold. A prediction: even though he is unpopular now, he’ll be remembered kindly…because the policies he has pursued are, for the most part, the right ones.

    .
    I remember when Joe was excited by a new Governor who got elected via recall after public protests. Anyone remember when Joe said it was a protest against democracy?
    .
    Yeah, me neither.

  • kjk28

    When you play a game, you agree to play by the rules in the rule book. And secret holds is in the rule book.

  • nflfoghorn

    “…Governor Scott Walker’s basic requests are modest ones–asking public employees to contribute more to their pension and health care plans, though still far less than most private sector employees do…”
    .
    MODEST??
    No raises for years.
    Cutting into their meager incomes even further.
    Non-sequitur comparison of WISCONSIN and what NY teachers/janitors/waterboys have negotiated.
    Waiving the right to justly negotiate wages, no questions asked…
    .
    JK, why do you hate unions so much? Did a family member get fired from one?

  • newfreedomblog

    Watch Ladies and Gentlemen, as the leftist come crawling out of their holes to descend upon Joe Klein’s post here today.
    .
    LOL, I love it!!

  • http://shortplaysaboutrealpeople.wordpress.com Michael Maiello

    I’m stunned by the class snobbery in Joe’s post as well. The most he seems to want for hard working janitors, home health workers and the like is that they “won’t be too severely underpaid.” What an awful sentiment.

  • jsfox

    Page 2

    Balances

    Gross Balance $121,362,800
    Less Required Statutory Balance -65,000,000
    Net Balance, June 30 $56,362,800

  • nflfoghorn

    Since you’re so Intellectually Superior to critical thinkers (i.e., I don’t think you THINK!0

  • nflfoghorn

    …why don’t you predict how hurting education is going to help kids learn.

  • newfreedomblog

    La-la liberal land is imploding upon itself. Life is good.

  • paulejb

    The late Al Shanker, Teacher’s union leader told us what this is all about.

    “When school children start paying union dues, that’s when I’ll begin representing the interests of schoolchildren.”

  • 53_3

    Joe:
    I respect your opinions quite a bit – more so than the other Swampland pundits – but:
    .
    Who is it that has spent so much time demonizing labor unions?
    .
    I shouted because I want to point out one problem you have not considered:
    .
    The issue of trust.
    .
    You see, Walker and the Tea Party have made a career out of bashing unions. Good examples of his fellow TPers conduct can be found right here in the Swampland comments. According to some here, the SEIU has been even compared to the Nazi SA!
    .
    So, to place this in a perspective you hadn’t considered in your article:
    .
    If my future was placed in the hands of, say, any one of the politicians who have participated in the egregious union bashing, do you think it would be wise to trust him or her? Do you think I should?
    .
    There is more to this than just the mechanics, Joe. After all, one of the things they have roundly complained about is the fact that they have been unjustly vilified and scapegoated.
    .
    That is what the protesters have said, Joe.
    .
    Please respond!

  • newfreedomblog

    Oh, and you mean these “good Teachers”
    .

  • newfreedomblog

    I was trying to find that quote. Foggy@14.2, see 15
    .

  • paulejb

    nflfoghorn@14.2,
    .
    Anyone who believes that this is about the education of children lives in a cloud. This is about protecting the right of public employees to cling to the public teat.

  • 53_3

    Polls from Wisconsin and elsewhere (except in FOX la-la land) have consistently shown an unfavorable opinion regarding the bill.
    .
    Google ‘poll Wisconsin budget bill’ for those who want to know…

  • 53_3

    @foghorn:
    .
    They do this because they want to avoid seeing the rest of the country leave them behind, knowledge-wise…

  • 53_3

    He’s a Republican!
    .
    Honestly, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a Republican, even a moderate, show any approval of the labor movement whatsoever!
    .
    If you know of even one, please let me know!

  • Matt

    Ending collective bargaining for public workers is just the first step. Next the tea party elite will come for all organized labor. Then they’ll repeal child labor laws and things like the 40-hour work week and minimum wages (they’re already attempting these things). This fight is about what’s next, not just about this specific issue.
    http://www.sunstateactivist.org

  • square1

    Like Joe Klein, I am sympathetic to the argument that there should be limits on the ability of public employee unions to negotiate work rules.

    However, unlike Joe Klein, I do not view this issue in a vacuum. This is not some academic debate over what the permissible scope of public employee labor negotiations should be.

    The context for the protests is the budgetary shortfall, the dismantling of social services in Wisconsin, and the scapegoating of public employees for an economic climate that was caused by people making orders of magnitude greater than anyone on the state’s payroll.

    “And it seems to me that Governor Scott Walker’s basic requests are modest ones”

    Let us assume for the sake of argument that they are. But since Walker’s requests were made in the context of addressing the budgetary shortfall, why shouldn’t all reasonable and modest proposals be on the table? Where is the “grand bargain” where unions accept some pain while the corporations and wealthy individuals whose tax cuts in recent years contributed the most to the shortfall without providing a meaningful economic gain also?

    Let us be blunt. If the Wisconsin legislature succeeds in ramming through this anti-union bill in the name of “belt-tightening” and there is no quid pro quo for liberal budget ideas, Joe Klein will completely erase the budgetary problems of Wisconsin from his mind. There will be no follow-up Swampland posts demanding that “now that the unions made a sacrifice, it is time for others to do so as well.” There will be no further articles on any reductions in the quality of Wisconsin’s public services.

    The problem isn’t that Joe Klein is completely wrong. It is that he allows his reflexively anti-union bias to color his punditry on all domestic issues.

    Isn’t it ironic that the Democratic Senators have fled the democratic process?

    No. Anyone who thinks that these legislators will never return and that democracy has been abolished is an idiot. The “democratic process” includes the democratically created rules that require a quorum in order to pass legislation. Using the existing rules to delay a vote until the public can voice their displeasure is what democracy is all about.

    There is, quite literally, nothing that is different in kind from what the Wisconsin Democrats are doing to “prolong debate” on this issue than what U.S. Senators do during a filibuster, except that leaving the state has a greater dramatic flair than telling Harry Reid in a back hallway that a filibuster is on.

  • newfreedomblog

    Nope, didn’t quite get the “Next there would be no budget shortfall had not Walker pushed thru a unnecessary corporate tax cut and then turned around and increased funding on pet projects.”
    .
    Where are those “corporate tax cuts” you claim? I only see shortfalls from corporate taxes due to a failing economy. A budget shortfall due to an agreement which was terminated to get reciprocity for state income taxes with Minnesota. Various other shortfalls, but no corporate give aways. None.
    .
    Again, point it out or retract it.

  • paulejb

    53_3@16,
    .
    Public employees have worn out their welcome in a lot more places than just Wisconsin. The greed of the public employees unions is even turning off liberals. The days of the unlimited benefits for public employees is over. The cost is unsustainable and the taxpayers will no longer stand for it.

  • nflfoghorn

    Agreed, Fitty. There’s plenty of union-bashing to go around when it comes to excesses, but this ins’t one of them. This is not some Chicago-machine-style union system.
    .
    Neocons (you know who you are), it is indeed about the kids.
    .
    Are YOU going to teach them?
    Or are you going to incessantly criticize those that do based on some cockeyed notion–read, LIES–that they’re taking your collective tax $ and pouring it down a rathole.
    .
    Your call.

  • 53_3

    I look at their flight from Wisconsin as civil disobedience.

  • 53_3

    Polls show differently, paulejb.
    .
    And if I were in one of their unions, and a teacher, and you were Walker, why in pluperfect hell would I trust you?
    .
    After all, you did compare the SEIU to the Nazis…

  • paulejb

    Matt@17,
    .
    Are you channeling the late Ted Kennedy, Matt. Your statement echoes his “Robert Bork’s America” speech.
    .
    That speech launched the new era of the politics of personal destruction and should have been buried with Ted.

  • nflfoghorn

    ins’t = ins’t

  • 53_3

    Not when the rules get changed to benefit one party politically.
    .
    After all, your compatriots have used this argument.
    .
    So, what’s good for the goose is good for the other goose…

  • 53_3

    ain’t?

  • 53_3

    …and of course, the House waited until after the repeal vote to invoke new rules that would have prevented them from bringing the repeal to the floor in the first place.
    .
    Democracy, not hypocrisy…

  • paulejb

    nflfoghorn@19,
    .
    Home schooled kids regularly outperform public school kids. If public school teachers actually earned their pay there wouldn’t be such an outcry.
    .
    How about we pay teacher’s based on merit, with the worst performers shown the door? Sound fair?

  • nflfoghorn

    ISN’T.
    %#@ dyslexia!
    .
    “If you’re a dyslexic agnostic, do you doubt Dog?”

  • allthingsinaname

    Isn’t ironic that in America we have the right to protest? Isn’t Ironic that the military hasn’t stepped in? Isn’t ironic that the Gov. alerted the National Guard? Isn’t it ironic that Joe protests the action of the Teachers? Isn’t it ironic that Joe doesn’t like teacher unions? Isn’t ironic that Joe is claiming to have it both ways?

  • doddeb

    “He is also trying to limit the unions’ abilities to negotiate work rules–and this is crucial when it comes to the more efficient operation of government in a difficult time. ”
    .
    Joe, seriously? You say “limit”, I’ll say destroy. There is no way to sugar coat what the governor did. Taking away collective bargaining rights from these people was a radical move. He pulled out the heavy artillery and denied these people a voice in their future. In a budget-fix measure for a budget that doesn’t even come due until the end of June. Where was the emergency?
    .
    You may argue that the Dem legislators leaving the state is “undemocratic”. I’d argue that they simply want to give the people a chance to respond to this outrageous, heavy-handed approach. If you’re management, and I’m a worker, it doesn’t matter to me that you want to make it “more efficent” to take away from my benefits and pay. For fifty years, there has been an agreement that the workforce and management hash out their difficulties at the bargaining table. It is messy, sometimes angry, definitely “inefficient”. It’s also the way things get done in a true democracy. And big surprise, when you try to trample their rights, people get upset and use the only means they have to get your attention.
    .

  • nflfoghorn

    Paulie @ 19.3: You’re drinkin’ Kool-Aid on all counts.

  • shepherdwong

    Joe Klein and Rush Limbaugh, together at last.

  • nflfoghorn

    ..it’s the government’s obligation to educate all children. How many parents are going to quit so they can teach their kids at home? HUH???

  • kjk28

    Child labor laws?!!? Where can I sign up my 12 and 8 year olds??

  • nflfoghorn

    Yeh, but people take Limbaugh seriously ;)

  • jaimymoore

    “More than half of the lower estimate ($117.2 million) is due to the impact of Special Session Senate Bill 2 (health savings accounts), Assembly Bill 3 (tax deductions/credits for relocated businesses), and Assembly Bill 7 (tax exclusion for new employees).”

  • paulejb

    53.3@16.2,
    .
    The only poll that counts right now is the one taken last November 2nd.
    .
    Walker made it perfectly clear where he intended to go during the campaign and he received 52% of the vote. That’s democracy, 53. It may not please you but there it is.
    .
    When purple shirted SEIU goons stop assaulting citizens, I will stop comparing them to brown shirts.

  • jaimymoore

    Joe, you idiot, the governor is lying about the size of the shortfall, and his bogus “remedies” don’t address the non-existent problem. How does re-certifying the union save money? How does doing away with payroll deductions save money?
    .
    You think Wisconsin elected Walker to fabricate crises so he could screw his political enemies? Really?

  • afguy

    paulie,
    .
    You seem to have a real “hard-on” regarding Bork.
    .
    What I remember about him is that he’s the only one Nixon could find willing to fire the Special Prosecutor during Watergate.
    .
    The AG and his Asst. both quit on principle, rather than do that.

  • jaimymoore

    paulejb is the perfect example of why ignorant people have no place in a debate on education. He has no metric for merit and confuses standardized tests with education.

  • paulejb

    nflfoghorn@22,
    .
    That’s it? That’s all you’ve got? That tired old Kool-Aid cliche? You aren’t even a speed bump, foghorn.

  • jaimymoore

    I think newfreedomblog saw a movie once, or something.

  • afguy

    Define “merit”, paulie.
    .
    Ky’s been fighting that battle for years now. We have KATS testing. The administrators essentially encourage teaching the evaluation tests so THEIR figures look better, for better funding.
    .
    Test scores improve every year. The real quality of the overall education process sucks canal water.

  • paulejb

    nflfoghorn@22.1,
    .
    Of course not all parents can afford to home school. That is why school vouchers are crucial to freeing parents from a failed public schools system.

  • shepherdwong

    It’s not rational. Klein has a pathological hatred of teachers unions, that’s all it is.

  • ashbadgermom

    Wow! I’m impressed Time Magazine! Years ago I cancelled all my magazine subscriptions, including Time, because it felt too one sided and biased. I’m watching… maybe you can convince me it’s worth my time and money again. Thank you for this great article!
    State Senator Dems need to get back to work!

  • gysgt213

    Joe hates unions. Nothing wrong with that. He shouldn’t join one or belong to any organization that fights for his rights.

  • jsfox

    Are you purposely dense when the facts go against your belief system.

    1) the report was written before the tax cuts and extra spending was passed.

    2) Walker signed into law on January 31st

    MADISON — Companies that relocate to Wisconsin won’t have to pay income taxes for two years under a bill signed into law Monday by Gov. Scott Walker.

    http://www.postcrescent.com/article/20110201/APC0101/102010421/Wisconsin-Governor-Scott-Walker-signs-tax-cut-bill-into-law

  • http://grapemusing.blogspot.com/ grape_crush

    Hey, it’s another column that Joe Klein will end up having to apologize for!

    Careful, Joe…your anti-teacher’s union bias is showing (again)…and it’s giving you a bad case of intellectual constipation.

    Isn’t it interesting that some of those who–rightly–protest the assorted Republican efforts to stymie majority rule in the U.S. Senate are celebrating the Democratic efforts to stymie the same in the Wisconsin Senate?

    Conversely, isn’t it interesting that those who supported what the GOPers in the Senate did to stymie majority rule are all up in arms about what’s happening in Wisconsin?

    In a democracy, there are consequences to elections.

    Funny…that’s not the lesson of the past few years, Joe, is it?

    He is also trying to limit the unions’ abilities to negotiate work rules–and this is crucial when it comes to the more efficient operation of government in a difficult time.

    Really? Can you provide the rationale of why it’s crucial to eliminate collective bargaining, Joe?

    When I covered local government in New York 30 years ago…

    That’s part of your problem, Joe. You’re drawing your picture with 30-year-old crayons.

    Government officials were, in effect, bribing their most activist constituents.

    And this is only a problem with unions, right? Not so much with other ‘activist constituencies’, right Joe?

    In its Jan. 31 memo to legislators on the condition of the state’s budget, the Fiscal Bureau determined that the state will end the year with a balance of $121.4 million.
    .
    To the extent that there is an imbalance — Walker claims there is a $137 million deficit — it is not because of a drop in revenues or increases in the cost of state employee contracts, benefits or pensions. It is because Walker and his allies pushed through $140 million in new spending for special-interest groups in January.

    Right, Joe?

    Walker’s plan to eviscerate collective bargaining rights for public employees is right out of the Koch brothers’ playbook. Koch-backed groups like Americans for Prosperity, the Cato Institute, the Competitive Enterprise Institute, and the Reason Foundation have long taken a very antagonistic view toward public-sector unions. Several of these groups have urged the eradication of these unions.
    .
    In Wisconsin, this conservative, anti-union view is being placed into action by lawmakers in sync with the deep-pocketed donors who helped them obtain power. (Walker also opposes the state’s Clean Energy Job Act, which would compel the state to increase its use of alternative energy.) At this moment—even with the Wisconsin uprising unresolved—the Koch brothers’ investment in Walker appears to be paying off.

    Public employees unions are organized against the might and greed…of the public?

    That’s just dumb, Joe. A union exists to represent the interests of its membership in negotiations with an employer. Public or private; doesn’t make one whit of difference. What’s going on in Wisconsin is that a right-wing governor is trying to end the right of a group of people to collectively bargain with their employer…full stop.

    You can agree with that or not agree with that, Joe. Don’t pretend that this is about something else.

    But we’ve had far too many state legislatures, of both parties, that have been cowed by the political power of the unions and enacted contracts that force state and city governments to be run for the benefit of their employees, rather than for their citizens.

    Lazy opinionating. Is this what is happening in Wisconsin, or are you painting with far too wide of a brush?

    (hint: it’s the latter. Try comparing graduation rates between states – Wisconsin, at 89.6% is one of the highest in the country.

    source:http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/06/02/graduation-rates-by-state-and-race/ )

    You can’t argue that – overall – Wisconsin teachers are doing a bad job of education.

    …after decades of flush times and lax negotiating, had become imbalanced…

    Florida’s new governor, Rick Scott, lead one of Business Week’s 50 Best Performing Companies into a $600 million fraud suit. When he was forced to resign, he left with around $360 million dollars in payout (cash settlement and stocks). How ’bout the bonuses paid to executives after the taxpayers – including teachers in Wisconsin – bailed out Wall Street?

    Was there any correction of an imbalance there, Joe?

    That is also something that, from time to time, happens in a democracy.

    I can’t believe that Joe Klein’s definition of democracy is “shut up and take it in the a**.”

    If not, then what exactly are you arguing, Joe? Public unions are bad because…occasionally there’s a teacher who shouldn’t be teaching and union and employer work rules can make it difficult to just dump them? That’s it?

    Weak.

  • afguy

    Will vouchers cover all costs of transferring so someone in the lower income brackets has total choice?
    .
    If not, you’re just talking about using gov’t subsidies to benefit the more well-off.
    .
    Another of those “transfers of wealth” upward…

  • lreed580

    As a retired educator, I’m really tired of the teacher and union bashing that is going on. Unions don’t just serve to negotiate o wages…….one of the most difficult situations I had as a teacher was teaching in a very low income school with many behavior problems and little parental support. Unfortunately our principal often decided to take afternoons off with no way to contact him; so, if you had a serious behavior problem, there was no administrator to step in. It was only through the union we were able to bring in a mediator to present our grievances and basically call him on the carpet.

    I returned to school to obtain my teaching certificate as a single mother with 3 kids. I never regretted my decision and know that I made a difference with my students. Given what has transpired in the last year and what the general environment for teachers looks to be on the horizon, I would NOT recommend that a young person consider education as a vocation. The lack of support and vilifying by Republicans does nothing more than break the spirit of those who truly wanted to make a difference. I’m really appalled at what it is taking place. And you, Mr. Klein…..words don’t adequately express how I feel about what you’ve written……truly disgusting.

  • paulejb

    afguy@19.6,
    .
    Want to fix the problem?
    .
    1. Eliminate tenure.
    .
    2. Award performance pay.
    .
    3. Eliminate LIFO. Protecting the worst teachers is counter-productive.
    .
    4. Remember that the education system is about the kids not the teachers.

  • nflfoghorn

    FIVE MYTHS ABOUT SCHOOL VOUCHERS….

    “2. Students who receive vouchers do better academically than their public school peers. That depends on the measure. Overall the test scores of students who use vouchers are largely indistinguishable from students who stay behind in public schools. On the other hand, parent satisfaction is generally greater among parents whose children received vouchers. And while it’s too soon to tell for sure, there is some evidence that other outcomes, for instance graduation rates, may be better for students who receive vouchers….
    “Bottom line: Vouchers certainly do not hurt students, but promises of dramatic improvement are not supported by the overall evidence.”
    .

    http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2049761,00.html

  • p4ckers

    Democratic process requires representation. Governor Walker is only willing to listen to the voices of those who happen to agree with him. He tells lies about the bill. Read it. Then listen to him. Then educate yourselves, because the media is useless. It is claimed that unions will still be able to bargain for wages, so what’s the big deal? A pay increase equal to inflation is no pay increase at all. Plus, the transit systems in most Wisconsin cities that have them will likely lose federal funding. How is that for fixing a budget? Lets make local government pay more, while telling them we are saving them money. All politicians need to pull their heads out of their (_|_) s.

  • paulejb

    afguy@22.4,
    .
    If you believe that people with means would allow their children anywhere near the public school system, you too live in a cloud.
    .
    It is the poor and minorities who are trapped in a failed system. They are merely pawns of the teacher’s unions whose goal is to squeeze ever more dollars from the taxpayers to benefit their members and their political benefactors.

  • square1

    Home schooled kids regularly outperform public school kids.
    .
    Even if true, your point is?
    .
    There are two primary flaws with comparing home-schooled kids to public school kids.
    .
    First, it isn’t a random sample. By definition, parents of home-schooled kids have the time, money, and motivation to make sure their kids get a good education. In order to properly compare the systems, you would filter the public-school results for students whose family income, education, free-time, etc. are comparable to those who are home-schooled.
    .
    Second, even if home-schooling produced better results, it is likely the result of the fact that the student-teacher ratio is in the area of 1:1 to 5:1. Of course if public schools had 2:1 student-teacher ratios the results would be much greater. But when was the last time that Republicans — and specifically home-schooling advocates — suggested education funding at levels that would dramatically reduce the classroom populations?
    .
    Finally, what is your point? Let us assume that home-schooling is better. As I said, most people don’t have the time and money to home school their kids. Saying that home schooling is better than public schooling is like saying that being privately tutored at Oxford is better than going to a local community college. Yes. And? Is your plan to send everyone for private tutoring at Oxford? Is your plan to give everyone enough money to home-school their kids?
    .

  • http://erieangel.wordpress.com erieangel

    From what I’m hearing out of WI, from protesters who have been interviewed is that they don’t mind so much the increases in what they are being asked to contribute to their health care and pension plans. What these protests are about is Walker’s attempt to end any and all future collective bargaining by these unions. Ending collective bargaining has nothing to do with the budget, its all about busting the unions.
    .
    And Joe, why don’t you report on the fact that the police, fire fighters and state troopers unions are not going to have their collective bargaining rights taken away by this bill–those unions, after all, had supported Walker during his campaign while all the other public service unions had supported his rival.

  • newfreedomblog

    “That’s it? That’s all you’ve got? That tired old Kool-Aid cliche? You aren’t even a speed bump, foghorn.”

    .
    Oh just wait, paulejb
    .
    Soon they, he and IQ53 will yank out the “racist” card. Hang on, should be coming soon for you.

  • afguy

    1. Eliminate tenure.
    So that experienced teachers can be dismissed after they reach a certain age, and a less experienced (read “cheaper”) person can be brought in in their place?
    .
    2. Award performance pay.
    Based on what? Number of failures, number of A’s awarded? Political connections? What? They’re not on an assembly line.
    .
    3. Eliminate LIFO. Protecting the worst teachers is counter-productive.
    Actually, I agree – but replaced with what? Until you have a working REAL performance-based process, internal school politic considerations is all that would remain.
    .
    I’ve seen pseudo-performance-based programs up close. Strip away the facade and it boils down to “who you know”, NOT “what you know”.
    .
    But ALL of the written guidelines are in place – and they DO appear to be following them.

  • shepherdwong

    Finally, what is your point?
    .
    As always, it’s a talking point and he obviously hasn’t the brains to understand any of it. I’m more and more convinced that our new friend paul is a paid, scripted right-wing troll.

  • paulejb

    afguy@17.3,
    .
    My comment was not about Judge Bork. It was about Ted Kennedy’s over the top and uncivil attack on Bork from the floor of the Senate. That speech has set the tone of politics in this country to this day.

  • swissArmyBrainBETA

    excellent point about the democratic process. changed my mind

  • http://goonka.wordpress.com goonka

    THIS report from over a year ago states what Walker has been saying: he has a 3.6 BILLION problem. No lies. No fabrications. One year ago, January it was reported that AS OF JULY 2009, WI was deficit 2.71 BILLION AND note: it was even up from the YEAR before so July 2008 was bad as well. Link included.

    3 JAN 2010 WI State Journal

    Deficit in Wisconsin up 8.4% from year before

    Wisconsin ended its fiscal year in June with a $2.71 billion budget deficit, a state report shows.

    That’s an 8.4 percent increase over last year’s deficit of $2.5 billion.

    The report shows the financial challenges ahead for the next state leader who will take over in January 2011 after Gov. Jim Doyle leaves office.

    The figures on the shortfall in the state’s main account differ from those in most state reports, which simply figure how much cash the state has. This report, which is prepared according to generally accepted accounting rules, takes into account spending the state has promised in the future.

    State officials have said the budget deficit is the unavoidable result of the recent economic downturn. But Todd Berry, president of the Wisconsin Taxpayers Alliance, said it’s a long-standing problem.

    “For more than a decade, governors and legislators of both parties have ‘balanced’ budgets through use of accounting maneuvers, timing delays, borrowing and billions in one-time money,” Berry wrote in a column last week.

    http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt_and_politics/article_bd7e32ca-f875-11de-9941-001cc4c002e0.html

  • nflfoghorn

    Wha’choo talkin’ ’bout “failed,” Paulie?

  • hippooath

    “The only poll that counts right now is the one taken last November 2nd.”
    .
    Okay, so the only poll that matters is a old one, over the ones taken more recently?
    .
    Stop the cleverness already.

  • newfreedomblog

    Probably better than a drug-induced dream world you have been habituating for the last 20+ years, jaimymoore

  • afguy

    If you believe that people with means would allow their children anywhere near the public school system, you too live in a cloud.
    .
    Actually, paulie, they do. (and there you go telling me what I should and shouldn’t believe- again.)
    .
    They know the administrators and others with the levers of power and their kids are given preference for those little leadership activities every school has that look good on their college resumes. You know, class president, yearbook staff, club presidents, etc.
    .
    We have several private schools here – none have benefits for their teaching staff. Our minister’s wife teaches at one and is going to have to leave because they need more money to make ends meet.
    .
    Private schools aren’t the panacea for all education issues that you seem to imagine them to be.

  • http://goonka.wordpress.com goonka

    That is incorrect actually. There are 314 Police/Fire unions within the state of Wisconsin. Only 4 chapters backed him, and they were all in Milwaukee, because they saw FIRST HAND what Barrett did TO THEM and wanted to give Walker a chance.

    It is just that those employees that put their lives on the line for US – the citizens – are not having to worry about this.

    As for the rest? this is NOT about collective bargaining. But rather the fact that Walker has said: NO MORE FORCED UNION DUES. IF a worker wishes to pay, they may. The unions can also no longer FORCE the employer to DEDUCT the wages (which as a union employee, I’ve always said I thought was illegal, one: I dont wish to ‘donate’ to their political causes two: I dont wish to pay for their luxury items. Our money paid in is SUPPOSED to be there in the event someone needs it. HOW much are people paid for striking .. hmm.?) from the employees wages.

    This is SOLELY about breaking the UNIONS personal piggy bank constructed of gov’t workers who ‘deposit’ over $100 million a year. That’s not even the private sector.

    Even Teddy Roosevelt said that there is NO reason why government workers should ever be allowed to unionize.

  • newfreedomblog

    Thanks for the link, jsfox. Tax cuts to basically bring in more jobs through relocation of businesses to Wisconsin, right? Estimated at 117 million. So it is not a tax cut across the board for all businesses in Wisconsin, but a tax cut to POTENTIAL businesses who will bring in new jobs and income tax money from NEW businesses. Do I have that right?
    .
    See when the whole truth and nothing but the truth is brought forward, instead of TPM spin for the liberal agenda, then things are much clearer.

  • jake2008

    Why shouldn’t a janitor make $60,000? BECAUSE WE CAN’T AFFORD IT! There are many people with much higher education levels and a lot of experience who don’t make this much. The private sector would never pay this much. It is a lottery to get a $60K janitor job.
    .
    It’s not the salary that I mind as much as the benefits though. My company pays $400/month for health insurance and that is the only additional benefit I get that they pay for. They don’t match 401K or anything like that. I pay an additional $1000 per month out of my pocket to insure myself, my disabled wife and our two kids. When my wife worked as a teacher the whole family got free health, dental and vision. It was great for us then but when everyone else is suffering public employees should not be excluded from the pain because they have strong unions.

  • paulejb

    square1@19.8,
    .
    You miss the point. Parents make great sacrifices to home school their kids because of the disastrous condition of most public schools. Parents, who cannot home school, desperately try to get their kids out of the system and into Charter Schools.
    .
    Class size has dropped steadily over the years at the same time as education has continued to deteriorate. The problem with public schools is first, last, and always, union rules. These rules were set up with the consent of politicians who were bought and paid for by the unions like the band of Democrats from Wisconsin who made themselves scarce at the bidding of their union masters.

  • Ivy_B

    Excellent. Particularly the point about Scott and the bailouts.

  • http://erieangel.wordpress.com erieangel

    I’m not in a union, as a certified peer specialist, I’m not allowed to join the social workers’ union. But the agency I work for has made an agreement with the union that all non-union workers will be treated as if they are union.
    .
    That means I get all the benefits and responsibilities as a social worker, but with slightly less pay, though I do get the same rate of COLA pay increases as the union workers. Plus I get one thing the union workers don’t get. Because I am a peer specialist, I get “mental health” days as needed because the agency is concerned that the pressures of the work will cause the peer specialists to have relapses.
    .
    For those that don’t know, a peer specialist is a person who has recovered somewhat from mental illness, is able to function most of the time and has taken special training. When I took my training I was told that it is the basic stuff social workers are taught during their first 2 years of college—and my training was 2 weeks long!

  • shepherdwong

    When he was forced to resign, he left with around $360 million dollars in payout (cash settlement and stocks). How ’bout the bonuses paid to executives after the taxpayers – including teachers in Wisconsin – bailed out Wall Street?
    .
    Nice work, grape. Remember, Klein is also a millionaire by virtue of his own particular fraud. Birds of a feather…

    Throughout the spring, however, Klein continued to publicly deny authorship. What was not known at the time but which became public later was that Klein had told a Newsweek editor, Maynard Parker, that he had written the book. However, Parker allowed the magazine to proceed with an article speculating on the book’ s authorship including Klein’ s denial, which Parker knew to be untrue. Klein also denied that he was the author to his bosses at CBS, a denial that was aired on the network.
    .
    Finally, on July 17, 1996, the Washington Post got Klein to admit that he had written the book. At a press conference the same day, President Clinton was repeatedly questioned about whether he knew that Klein was the author; Clinton denied knowing that Klein had written the book. One week later, Newsweek suspended Klein for lying about writing the book; he was reinstated at the magazine on August 5 to cover the Presidential election. On July 25, Klein either was fired or resigned from his work at CBS. And, on October 25, Klein announced that he was leaving Newsweek to write for The New Yorker magazine.

    http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:lb0-bAN9nNQJ:highered.mcgraw-hill.com/sites/dl/free/007288259x/30711/Primary_Colors.doc+fraud+klein+primary+colors&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgwTkleltYDuDfsy7I2W6uaJASlUVPgS6xgPlKJBwCEufGASfEBcdijIJBsBrlR6XCip44wfxqUIBmFFzJSldvBV9qJ8f85StT77GnI7Ajv4Cwbe9uxK5jL3Y5KKQgKrDaLOUBE&sig=AHIEtbR4uSgU8oYkfkEjWN4RRn9jzffZLw

  • http://shortplaysaboutrealpeople.wordpress.com Michael Maiello

    @Jake2008: You have things exactly backwards. While your wife was working you didn’t get “free” health and dental benefits. She worked for them. They were earned. That you get meager benefits from your private employer is no reason to tear down the public employees. It’s a reason for you to unionize and do something about getting screwed.

  • m0mentom0ri

    “Home schooled kids regularly outperform public school kids. ”
    .
    As reported by the HSLDA.
    .
    What is the HSLDA? It’s the Home School Legal Defense Association.
    .
    The original research was done by the National Home Education Research Institute.
    .
    Right-wingers think 90% of scientists are lying to them about climate change, but if an industry shill provides them a single talking point to support their ideological argument, they lap it up like Rusty with a cheap bottle of gin.

  • newfreedomblog

    Finally, what is your point?

    .
    Point is we have been spending money on our schools for years and years now with the results either being stagnant or declining. Look at any OECD studies of comparisons for industrialized countries versus the US education system.
    .
    Point is home schooled children are far exceeding the expectations and the outcomes for publicly educated children. See most recently the voucher program in Washington, DC.
    .
    Point is when something is broken, you can’t throw more money at it and hope the problem simply vanishes.
    .
    Point is, “deals” and contracts made years ago with a Union dominated culture, we simply can’t afford their deals any longer. The Teacher entitlement programs have become too much of a burden for the tax payer to continue to shoulder. It’s time Teachers start to pay for some of their own way for a change.

  • paulejb

    afguy@19.9,
    .
    1. There is no tenure in the private sector. Your performance evaluation is not based on longevity.
    .
    2. How about judging teachers on whether their students can read and write at class level?

    3. Start by laying off the teachers who have been removed from classes for cause but remain on the payroll. Then lay off the time servers, clock watchers, habitually late or habitually absent. Where there is a will there is a way.

    The guidelines are not working. It is time for a change. It is time for public employees to again become public servants.

  • southernbell49

    Good Ole Joe and his fellow MSMers. The shower the Tea Partiers with respect and give them legitimacy but when it comes to listening to teachers’ side of things, they suddenly decide they are not democratic.

    Joe, I’m going to be blunt. It people like you who caused me not to become a teacher. About seventeen years ago I was considering a career change and decided I wanted to be a teacher. But due to how teachers were held accountable for everything and given very little real power to make changes and considering all the animosity directed to teachers from people like you, I decided I didn’t have the stomach to fight a constant war on all fronts.

    Parents get angry when their kids are held back or get a low grade or are assigned too much homework or are expected to make sure their kids study at night.

    Schoolboards are composed of political fanatics who hate the public school system.

    The Media dumps on teachers to prove they are not “liberal” and are fair and balanced.

    Why do you constantly criticize teachers instead of looking at the broader picture? Did some teacher hurt you physically or emotionally in your past? That is a serious question. There are thousands and thousands of dedicated teachers out there but you only seem to praise the teachers in Charter Schools. Why don’t you try to balance your coverage by occasionally writing about wonderful public-school teachers.

    And you know what, Joe? I would have been a damn fine teacher. Thanks a lot, Joe.

  • paulejb

    momentomori@19.12,
    .
    Isn’t it odd then that in head to head competition such as spelling or math bees that home schoolers outperform public schoolers.

  • newfreedomblog

    Here they come!! Flying in on their unicorns, they are crawling out of their holes, one by one. La-la land is in turmoil.

  • paulejb

    shepherdwong@19.10,
    .
    Has an original thought ever passed your mind, Wong? Or are you just a mass of tired, old, cliches?

  • Paul-no not that one

    This isn’t about JK’s contempt for unions (that is well established) this about anyone (everyone?) but him making sacrifices.
    .
    It’s the “adult” position. BHO does it with cutting aid to poor people’s heating assistance. The powerful will share none of the pain. The pain that they assure us “we all must share”.
    .
    Unremarkable.

  • drf55

    With all due respect to Joe Klein, he has this totally wrong. This isn’t a “rebalancing” of power between the government and the public employees’ union, this legislation effectively kills off the union.

    The various unions had already negotiated significant financial concessions with the prior administration and had indicated their willingness to sit down and do the same with this Governor. The rebalancing that Klein talks about has already happened.

    Walker’s legislation unbalances the playing field by restricting the ability of the union to negotiate while leaving the government free of restrictions. So, the union can’t negotiate for a base pay increase over a certain cap, but there is no cap or floor on pay reductions that the government can ask for. The union can negotiate base pay but not benefits, which means that the government can impose benefit cuts after agreement on base pay. That’s nonsensical

  • paulejb

    newfeedomblog@22.7,
    .
    The maliciously false charge of racism is the new last refuge of scoundrels.

  • newfreedomblog

    And, it sounds like you did a great job while you were teaching too.
    .

    “The three-yearly OECD Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA) report, which compares the knowledge and skills of 15-year-olds in 70 countries around the world, ranked the United States 14th out of 34 OECD countries for reading skills, 17th for science and a below-average 25th for mathematics.”

    .
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/07/us-falls-in-world-education-rankings_n_793185.html
    .
    Thanks, but no thanks.

  • Paul-no not that one

    Adding-JK has always been flummoxed by people standing up for what they believe.
    .
    From the right (TPers) to the left (Anti-war activists) he just can’t imagine having firmly held convictions.

  • newfreedomblog

    http://centerforgloballeadership.wordpress.com/2010/12/08/us-tanks-in-global-education-rankings/
    .
    And, I am looking for a comparison of spending versus outcomes. It doesn’t look good either.

  • hippooath

    “Thanks for the link, jsfox. Tax cuts to basically bring in more jobs through relocation of businesses to Wisconsin, right? Estimated at 117 million. So it is not a tax cut across the board for all businesses in Wisconsin, but a tax cut to POTENTIAL businesses who will bring in new jobs and income tax money from NEW businesses. Do I have that right?
    .
    See when the whole truth and nothing but the truth is brought forward, instead of TPM spin for the liberal agenda, then things are much clearer.”
    .
    You’ve had the information for days now and you only bothered to post this nugget until someone copied it from the information showing you how wrong you are? So then you erect this ‘the meaning of what tax cuts’ are?
    .
    Tax cut is tax cut – it doesn’t matter if it’s specific to one thing or everything. The only things that matters is the end cost.

  • paulejb

    DNC is playing a role in the Wisconsin protests which puts a whole new face on the situation. It’s about politics and the Democrat parties greatest source of cash.
    .
    Sorry, folks. It’s not about the children.

  • newfreedomblog

    And we have a winner!!!
    .
    http://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/2010/section4/indicator38.asp
    .
    At the combined elementary and secondary level in 2006, the United States spent $10,267 per student, which was 41 percent higher than the OECD average of $7,283. At the postsecondary level, U.S. expenditures per student were $25,109, more than twice as high as the OECD average of $12,336.
    .
    Two measures used when comparing countries’ investments in education are expenditures per student from both public and private sources and total education expenditures as a percentage of gross domestic product (GDP). The latter measure allows a comparison of countries’ expenditures relative to their ability to finance education. Private sources of expenditures include payments from households for school-based expenses such as tuition, transportation fees, book rentals, or food services, as well as private funds raised by institutions.
    .
    Thank you for your service. How are your benefits and retirement going? Enough to keep you out of the poor house?

  • newfreedomblog

    Another liberal lie. It has never been about the children.

  • southernbell49

    Joe, I had to pop back in and add how disppointed I am in you.

    We had pretty much the same conversation a couple of months ago and once again I challenged you to address the terrible effect politicized school boards were having on our education system and to consider other factors in poor test scores.

    And yet, once more you failed to think outside your Ihateteachersunlesstheyworkinachartervouchersytem box.

  • paulejb

    Wisconsin teachers fraudulently calling in sick should be fired. It would be a good life lesson for the children.

  • pelhamite1

    I lived in Brooklyn back in the ’80s and I knew some of those custodians and, yes, they had a pretty sweet deal ($60,000 was a fair amount of money back then, probably equivalent to #120,000 now) and, yes, a lot of the work rules in New York City had to change and, for the most part, did. But Joe is being a touch facile in exptrapolating from that sitaution to this one, in which the Governor is trying to take away then union’s basic right to collective bargaining. That’s a real threat to the union going forward, essentailly an attempt at union busting, and the union has every right, even a duty to fight it with all their might. It doe not make them tright on every issue, it does not absolve them from the necessity of helping wisconsin work its way out of the hoe it is in, as every state (except for North Dakota?) must do. but there are some lessons that can be “over learned” and I think this is one of them.

  • http://erieangel.wordpress.com erieangel

    Wow Jake, sorry to hear of your misfortunes in that your company doesn’t pay matching funds into your 401K.
    .
    I work for a non-profit so we have a 401B. And my agency pays 7% into my retirement no matter how much I contribute. And my health insurance is $100 month on my end/ $340 on their end; agency pays total eye and dental coverage. Gee, I guess I do have it pretty good, even though my health insurance has super high deductibles and co-pays and I really don’t make all that much. Sometimes I think I was better off when I was on SSI.

  • newfreedomblog

    Oh and when you get done reading here, if your comprehension skills hold up. Go over to comment 28 on the next page and read all about my other points. Points I made to ireed580, our illustrious “retired” Teacher.

  • m0mentom0ri

    “Isn’t it odd then that in head to head competition such as spelling or math bees that home schoolers outperform public schoolers.”
    .
    Citation needed.
    .
    It’s also worth keeping in mind that 2 out of 5 home school kids are being home-schooled for religious reasons. Another 15% or so are special needs kids (mentally or physically disabled).
    .
    I graduated from an inner city school and somehow managed to get a doctors and masters in two separate fields. Go figure.

  • afguy

    Just checked. Lee Atwater was helping to run dirty campaigns with Ed Rollins for Reagan and other GOPers a full 7 years before Ted Kennedy gave his speech on Bork (1987).

  • paulejb

    hippooath@16.4,
    .
    Do I really need to remind you what happened last November 2nd?

  • paulejb

    afguy@17.5,

    Where are the speeches or other written documents similar to the Kennedy speech?

  • http://phoenixwoman.wordpress.com/ Phoenix Woman

    Hey, Joe! Why don’t you talk about how Walker CREATED the “budget deficit” with his tax giveaways to his rich buddies?

    http://uppitywis.org/blogarticle/budget-repair-my-ass

    Oh, that’s right — you’re rich and you’re paid by even richer people to try to bamboozle those of us who aren’t.

  • afguy

    I would think that someone specializing in attack ads for a political party seven years earlier could shoulder more blame for the discourse than a single speech on the floor of Congress.

  • http://phoenixwoman.wordpress.com/ Phoenix Woman

    How much did the Koch brothers pay for that comment?
    They’re billionaires, they can afford it.

  • paulejb

    jaimeymoore@19.5,
    .
    And how hard can it be to determine if little Jill and Johnny can spell their own names or add 2 + 2?

  • paulejb

    momentomori@19.18,
    .
    As a successful graduate of an inner city school, I would have thought that you would have had more sympathy for those trapped in sub standard schools. Is it now just a matter of out of sight, out of mind?

  • allthingsinaname

    I think people are waking up to the cost of complacency.

  • allthingsinaname

    They are working. If our Dem leaders hadn’t coward we couldn’t';t be in this position

  • paulejb

    Phoenix Woman@38.2,
    .
    Do you think the Koch brothers paid for this comment too?

    “When school children start paying union dues, that’s when I’ll start representing the interests school children.”

    That from the late Al Shanker of the UFT.

  • afguy

    Paulie,
    .
    You REALLY need to spend some time and read up on Atwater, what he did, and what he apologized for later in life. The material’s out there…
    .
    In 1991, shortly before he died of cancer, he wrote an article for Life Magazine in which he apologized to Michael Dukakis for the “naked cruelty” of the 1988 Presidential campaign.
    .
    He had enough of a conscience right toward the end of his life to know that a lot of what he had done to win elections was just morally bankrupt.

  • ricardo4max

    a) What does last year have to do with anything? It is the current state of affairs that the gov and govt are trying to deal with.
    b) Unions for govt workers are counterproductive and against the best interests of the citizens.
    c) Wisconsin teachers for example receive an average $89,000 annual compensation.
    d) Why should shouldn’t state workers pay for at least part of their own medical insurance?
    e) Why shouldn’t state workers shoulder some of the burden that the private sector has been carrying for years? (layoffs, salary reduction, etc…)
    f)Taking to the streets and lies and intimidation is NOT democracy. Voting is and the socialists lost.
    f) Cutting corporate taxes is the way to attract business. Remember that corporations don’t pay taxes anyway. they pas it through to their customers as an expense. It only serves to make the product or service more expensive and the company less competitive. I guess you Marxists don’t understand how free enterprise works nor do you care to.

  • paulejb

    allthings…@42,
    .
    Oh, yeah! The public employee’s union’s gravy train has derailed.

  • shepherdwong

    Private sources of expenditures include payments from households for school-based expenses such as tuition, transportation fees, book rentals, or food services, as well as private funds raised by institutions.
    .
    So it’s tres-expensive private schools and academies that are the drivers of higher costs, not public schools and public school teachers. Our oligarchs drive up the comparative cost of education to raise their brats to be the next generation of Galtian heroes and then attack public school teachers and their “lower-class” students to take away more of their resources. They’re not calling for expensive private schools to cut their teacher salaries and benefits. In other words, they are screwing us in every way imaginable, including torpedoing a better future for our kids, while they lavish their own children with the best money can buy.

  • newfreedomblog

    Lies, lies and more damn lies. See @ comment #4. The corrections have been made to these types of lies.

  • http://grapemusing.blogspot.com/ grape_crush

    But the agency I work for has made an agreement with the union that all non-union workers will be treated as if they are union.
    .
    And that’s another point which isn’t being mentioned…in some private-sector companies, it’s the threat of unionization that causes non-union shops to pay wages on par with what union workers make, avoid layoffs, and (in [Subaru's case]) “given raises for 20 consecutive years and…maintained premium-free health coverage.”
    .
    See, like it or not, employee unions are the backbone of America’s working-middle-class. Not only does the presence of unions backstop necessary work and civil rights, but they provide positive pressure on wages.

  • newfreedomblog

    One thing is absolutely for sure. No longer can liberals get away with just saying any old garbage online anymore without challenge.
    .
    Thanks Joe Klein for helping to bring truth back into discussions in America.

  • ricardo4max

    I disagree and so do the rest of America it seems. The backbone of this country are the hard working men and women that PRODUCE something. Ever seen a union worker? Need I say more?
    I guess if everyone but govt employees are unnecessary we should all sit home every day and collect the dole.

  • newfreedomblog

    We have one “train” which is yet to come and needs to be de-railed. Obama’s high speed rail to no where.
    .
    Wait until that pipe-dream is dissolved too.

  • http://grapemusing.blogspot.com/ grape_crush

    I think people are waking up to the cost of complacency.
    .
    That’s why my gut says that the 2010 midterms were a lot more like the 2004 elections than the 2006 midterms.
    .
    Dubya came out with his ‘mandate’, only to fail with his Schiavo, Social Security ‘reform,’ and Katrina fiascoes. Similarly, the 2010 GOPer class is just p*ssing everyone else off.

  • 53_3

    paulejb:
    .
    As for the assault, it hasn’t happened since, so what’s your problem?
    .
    I would not pretend you’re in it for anything other than an excuse to demonize a union. Ok? Fair is fair:
    .
    Since Timothy McVeigh killed 192 people and was, without question, a right wing crackhead lone wolfed by the militia movement, what does that say about your party?
    .
    If you want demonization, we can go there, and I’d wipe the floor and the walls with you in that discussion.
    .
    But not today. I’ve already done it more than a few times to some of your compatriots, and it is very wearing on me, and would divert from the very important discussions here.
    .
    However, when the blogs turn to the appropriate subject, I will be more than happy to visit it upon you.
    .
    As for the the election, yes, that is the only one that matters as far as governance is concerned:
    .
    In Wisconsin, you have the tools.
    .
    But:
    .
    Do not forget that if the body politic cannot feel pain, decidedly errant behavior can derail the best laid plans.
    .
    You only have to look to the ME for that…

  • jaimymoore

    “An election was held in Wisconsin last November. The Republicans won. In a democracy, there are consequences to elections and no one, not even the public employees unions, are exempt from that.”

    Yes, and the Democratic senators who are keeping the governor from retaliating against only those unions who campaigned against him, they won their elections, too.

    I guess Joke Line forgot that part.

  • jaimymoore

    It would explain why he doesn’t know anything about unions.

  • ricardo4max

    DO you have a poster of Lenin Stalin or Karl Marx on your wall? Perhaps all three if the institution allows it. JK a pawn of Republican corporatists? What’s funnier that or that fact you coined Republican corporatist? LMFAO at you in Palm Beach Right ? from NY right?

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks
  • 53_3

    Thanks p4ckers @ 29:
    .
    Hells bells, I’ll do it from the right:
    (_).) ffffftttt.
    .
    And, I’ll do it from the left:
    fffffft (.(_)
    .
    There. You have my fervent Wisconsin Cheese Head Walker Salute!

  • Paul-no not that one

    If it is about the budget the this should help, if it’s about union busting than every financial concession in the world is just noise.
    .

    “We are prepared to implement the financial concessions proposed to help bring our state’s budget into balance, but we will not be denied our God-given right to join a real union . . .  we will not – I repeat we will not – be denied our rights to collectively bargain,” Beil(Marty Beil, head of the Wisconsin State Employees Union, which represents some 23,000 blue-collar state workers) said in a statement.”
    .
    http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/116470423.html

  • jaimymoore

    19.19 – paulejb

    “And how hard can it be to determine if little Jill and Johnny can spell their own names or add 2 + 2?”

    I think I see the problem. That’s where your education ended, which is why you don’t understand any of this.

  • 53_3

    How about yours rusty?
    .
    You lie on a regular basis.
    .
    Every morning, you wake up to barrage us with your propaganda, most of it ridiculous in the extreme and lies at there very best…

  • hippooath

    “Do I really need to remind you what happened last November 2nd?”
    .
    No. But I didn’t make the statement that the past is the only thing that matters in the future. Yours is a logic fallacy, mine is a reflection of what’s going on now.
    .
    If your statement is true than 2008 has to be the overruling poll that ever mattered.

  • 53_3

    I think that’s what it is, too allthings.
    .
    I think the TP body politic, only taking its cues from FOX and Rush, can feel no pain.
    .
    Their success may indeed be brief…

  • jaimymoore
  • 53_3

    AIN’T!
    .
    And what’s a “dyslexic agnostic” anyway?
    .
    It can’t be anything as bad as rusty or freeipa, I’m sure.
    .
    Or can it?

  • jaimymoore

    spam @ 38.3

    You keep waving that quote around like it means something. You don’t seem to have grasped that she’s talking about her job: to represent teachers’ interests.
    .
    It was obvious to everyone else, anyway.
    .
    I mean, you can pretend it’s “proof” that the teachers’ unions don’t care about children, but that only proves that you’re too stupid to read.
    .
    On the other hand, it explains your politics ….

  • 53_3

    I think rusty graduated from peescrewel, er, I mean, preschool…

  • jaimymoore

    “Lies, lies and more damn lies.”
    .
    Keep telling yourself that, sparky. Keeps you from having to deal with the facts, since you don’t have the guts.

  • allthingsinaname

    Hopefully very brief. It is nice to see it start at a state level; the Village maybe left behind.

  • CP in FL

    RetardoMax – I am not from New York and I do not live in West Palm Beach. I do however support teachers.

  • afguy

    paulie,
    .
    Actually, your dream is being implemented at a college here in the area.
    .
    All new hires are on annual contracts. Admin. types no longer have to worry about determining quality for evaluation purposes. After a year, if they choose, they simply fail to renew the contract. No reasons need be given.
    .
    How is this working out? Well, a LOT of the new hires are friends or relatives of existing employees or staff whose contracts, I’m sure, will be renewed and whose work quality will be found to be exemplary.
    .
    The faculty are part-timers for the most part. No benefits. The full timers have to wait a while before full-time benefits kick in. Very little loyalty to the school. Very little desire for the part-time faculty to stay around for the extra work with students that need the help. After all, they aren’t being paid for that, just platform hours.
    .
    Full-time faculty – well, they are living from one contract to the next. The quality they are most interested in is the quality time they need to spend with the person who will renew their contract. Since no one actually observes them teach to any degree, there’s not a lot of motivation to be “innovative”. After all, that really has nothing to do with the retention process.
    .
    Costs are definitely being held down. No unions. Benefits really aren;t that great. You would be proud.
    .
    They even call the college president a CEO.
    .
    Just like you wanted. And, according to the students a-who go there, they pretty well suck. But, they are convenient.

  • shepherdwong

    …Walker is carrying out the wishes of his corporate master, David Koch, who calls the tune these days for Wisconsin Republicans. Walker is just one among many Wisconsin Republicans supported by Koch Industries — run by David Koch and his brother, Charles — and Americans For Prosperity, the astroturf group founded and funded by David Koch. The Koch brothers are hell-bent on destroying the labor movement once and for all.
    .
    During his election campaign, Walker received the maximum $15,000 contribution from Koch Industries, according to Think Progress, and support worth untold hundreds of thousands from the Koch-funded astroturf group, Americans For Prosperity. AlterNet recently reported the role of Republican National Committee Chairman Reince Priebus and Americans For Prosperity in a vote-caging scheme apparently designed to suppress the votes of African-Americans and college students in Milwaukee. In 2008, Walker served as emcee for an awards ceremony held by Americans For Prosperity. There, he conferred the “Defender of the American Dream” award on Rep. Paul Ryan, now chairman of the House Budget Committee.

    I wonder if David Koch sent his three kids to public schools? No?!
    .
    http://www.alternet.org/news/149965/wisconsin_is_a_battleground_against_the_billionaire_kochs%27_plan_to_break_labor%27s_back/?page=2

  • shepherdwong

    …the Village maybe left behind.

    If I didn’t know better, I’d think that Joe just dusted off an old column from 1993, changed a few names and just threw it on line. He clearly has not been following the changing debate on these issues over the past few years and certainly hasn’t the vaguest clue about what Walker is really doing.
    .
    Klein has been schooled a lot over the years by his readers and, I would guess, some of his friends about his ossified, anachronistic political worldview. They need to stage another intervention. The next thing you know he’ll be reviewing that hot new band Hootie and the Blowfish and talking about last night’s Seinfeld episode. I liked the 90s as much as anyone, but they’re over, Joe.
    .
    –Digby

    http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2011/02/joe-klein-taqkes-tripn-memory-lane-and.html

  • http://erieangel.wordpress.com erieangel

    @Paulie: A bill has been introduced in MO to end all child labor laws.

  • Ivy_B

    Saw a lot of comments today on various posts from people who haven’t been here for quite a while and have been missed. TK didn’t post, but tweeted this.

    @TeresaKopec
    Collective bargaining is illegal in SC yet our schools are worse in country, our state is in massive debt & teachers are being furloughed.

    Wonder how Joe et al, explain that since it is all the fault of the teacher’s unions.

  • allthingsinaname

    TX is the same and we made it all the way to 48th! Celebrate, celebrate. Go GOP!!!

  • lreed580

    28.3 newfreedom……I was nominated for national recognition for my teaching on 3 separate occasions. I made a positive contribution to society………which is something that can not be said about you.

  • http://confuciusjackson.wordpress.com confuciusjackson

    Beil probably shouldn’t be pissing off the athiests right now.

  • http://ericdlock.wordpress.com ericdlock

    Joe Klein is such a washed-up bloated has-been of a journalist. He clearly hasn’t bothered to learn about the issues at hand in Wisconsin. Very typical of a well paid, secure “elite” journalist who’s been resting on his past laurels in his perch at Time Mag while he opines about people who work harder than him and make a fraction of his income.

    The reason you have protests in Wisconsin has NOTHING to do with the pension and health insurance issues. Public Employee unions had negotiated pay cuts for the last two years and were at the table negotiating significant adjustments to pension and health financing that would effectively cut pay by 4-5%. Normal negotiation would have found compromise the Gov’s desire for 7-8% and the unions’ position.

    The point is, WI workers are willing to take their share of the burden of the impending deficit. What never gets reported — and what Joe clearly isn’t aware of — is that the protests were ignited by Walker’s blatant attempt to bust the unions by ending collective bargaining and rigging union organizing rules. Klein NEVER mentions this in his article and instead absurdly reaches back 30 years to recall some anecdote about janitors. Klein willfully mis-characterized Walker’s actions as “trying to limit the unions’ abilities to negotiate work rules”. That is total BS. Klein is imposing the situation in New York on Wisconsin. From his upper-class warped perch in Manhattan, Klein sees Walker as a middle class hero just trying to pragmatically solve budget problems. What he clearly doesn’t know is that Walker’s staff is almost all on loan from Right Wing think tanks and Walker’s agenda has been as down the line Corporate Shill as anyone, John Beonher included. If he is so serious about “just fixin’ the budget” why’d he ram through $120 Million in tax cuts two weeks before asking workers’ to contribute $200 M to pensions and health bens?

    Ever since Reagan conservative shills for the investment class have used recessions to play the “green eye shade pragmatist” ploy to shift the burdens of deficits on to the poor and the middle classes, while cutting taxes on the wealthy and removing the various pillars of middle class bargaining power erected during the New Deal generation.

    True, public employees are the only part of the working class to successfully resist this trend. But I’m sorry, there is no way I will EVER side with some fat-ass rich columnist from Time Magazine who preens with phrases like “everyone has to sacrifice” when he hasn’t given up one God-damned iota of his perks and privileges.

    Come down to Madison, Joe and walk through the crowds. These people are willing to do their share. they’re willing to sacrifice as long as EVERYONE is at the table putting in THEIR fair share. They are protesting because that obviously is NOT what Walker is up to. And they are using the ONE FORM OF POWER that they have — their UNIONS — to tell Walker and the Millionaires to play fair with them. I don’t know how you can side against them in this fight.

  • freeinpa

    “I look at their flight from Wisconsin as civil disobedience”
    .
    RUN FOREST RUN!!!

  • freeinpa

    JK

    You have the left in absolute apoplexy as they continue to try and defend a failing system worse greed has caught up with them.
    .

    And here is a hint is won;t stop at WI & OH

  • shepherdwong

    As the class war against the workers of America continues to be waged with more and more fury, everyone will be forced to pick a side. Are you really surprised that Klein, “[f]rom his upper-class warped perch in Manhattan,” went with the oligarchs?

  • newfreedomblog

    Gee IQ53, I think you found a new friend. Or I have a new stalker. Either way, hilarious.

  • newfreedomblog

    Wow, Ireed, that is very impressive. Not just one National recognition award, but three. How much did you pay for it?

  • liberalmeltdown

    “But we’ve had far too many state legislatures, of both parties, that have been cowed by the political power of the unions and enacted contracts that force state and city governments to be run for the benefit of their employees, rather than for their citizens. This situation is most egregious in far too many school districts across the nation. The events in Wisconsin are a rebalancing of power that, after decades of flush times and lax negotiating, had become imbalanced. That is also something that, from time to time, happens in a democracy.”

    .
    I about fell out of my chair…I am currently hoisting my jaw back into place off of the laptop.
    .
    You may cause a riot in California with this statement. The liberals will be uncontrollable.
    .
    This stuff goes back to Willie Brown in the 1990s in CA. This interview was originally on a CBS website. It has been removed. Gee I wonder why? I saved it to share with you. Parts of it are still here:
    .
    http://www.dcjunkies.com/showthread.php?t=14119
    .

    Willie Brown: Architect Of A Money Meltdown?

    Eventually, the man who was once one of the most powerful people in the state speaks – and makes some powerful statements about the unforeseen consequences of his political decisions.

    “In the world of politics we don’t think in these terms,” Brown says of the political decisions in the Statehouse. “We think very short-range: how can they be helpful in getting us re-elected. Period.”

    It’s a very bold admission from a man with a deep history here in California. It’s been 15 years since Willie Brown left the Statehouse. In that time, the state saw unprecedented growth both in California’s businesses and in its housing market. He also oversaw the expansion of the state government and the protection of its employees.

    “I had actually participated in moving legislation to reduce the retirement age for teachers and I did it with great pride and I created it in my resume as one of my great achievements.”

    He also realizes, though, that he helped set up the problems we see today: state IOU’s, furlough Fridays, and layoffs on a scale the state has never before had to face.

    “Nobody took the time to do the analysis that would have persuaded us we needed to add money to make it work,” says Brown.

    Before his time, state jobs were almost entry-level, nearly blue collar in their description. Now, those workers are protected civil servants with the same benefits as the private sector. It’s a change Brown now believes was short-sighted, even self-serving. He freely admits that he benefitted with a 15 year run as speaker and a long political career. Still, he doesn’t believe politicians deserve ALL the blame. He puts some of the blame on us, the voters.

    .
    .
    So, politicians like Willie Brown gave away the State of California in order to be re-elected. He admits it. Those state employees don’t deserve their pensions, they were given them by a political whore. Or, is he the pimp handing out coke? In any case, this is a glaring example of why there should NOT be public employee unions. The politicians pander to them to get money and votes, and then payoff the unions. Rinse and repeat. It’s a corrupt unethical system that is sticking it to the taxpayers. And, the wheels are falling off.

  • newfreedomblog

    Been awhile since Joe has taken a post to 3 pages. Congrats, Joe.
    .
    Brace yourselves. I think I hear the next wave of unicorns flapping their wings to take flight.
    .
    LOL

  • liberalmeltdown

    They are flying over black rainbows and dead butterflies.

  • formerlyjames

    Those are states have have “right to work” (read anti-union) laws. Ironically, Samuel Gompers died in San Antonio, although it had nothing to do with Texas right to work laws.

  • Paul-no not that one

    That’s pretty funny.
    .
    I was just trying to insert some actual on topic information.
    .
    The venom for teachers-not shared by the Wi Gov as far as I can tell-is really something on these threads.

  • formerlyjames

    Considering that this is the most interesting and informative thread that I have seen lately, perhaps Mr. Klein possesses some redeeming value, whatever his position.

  • formerlyjames

    Aside from the partisan comment, it is a great thread that I have enjoyed.

  • michaelfury

    “That is also something that, from time to time, happens in a democracy.”

    http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2011/02/18/act-of-state/

  • 53_3

    Maybe you should give teachers their due, rusty.
    .
    After all, it’s not their fault that you are horribly deficient in the matters of this planet anyway…

  • apr2563

    Pundidiot Joe Klein finds common cause with the reactionary right. His hatred of public unions is that bad.
    He doesn’t seem to realize that people in the Middle East, among other things, are fighting for the right to organize and negotiate, both private and public workers.
    .
    But Joe is one of those pundidiots who is an expert on every subject. Except, he isn’t.

  • pelhamite1

    “Ever seen a union worker? Need I say more?

    Yes, ricardo, you idiot, I have. About 900 of them. Who work for me. By and large a pretty hard working lot.

    .

    That doesn’t mean the union and I do not have our battles – we do. The leadership can be downright infuriating, shooting themselves in the foot as often as not. It’s an ongoing struggle between their side and my side to get where we need to be.

    .

    But the workers, public sector employees, are by and large a decent group who I respect. A whole lot more that you maniacal right wing bloggers who, I strongly suspect, wouldn’t know a hard days’ labor if it hit you in the head.

  • pelhamite1

    Pardon me if I brag a little here. I went to not one, but two Ivy League insitutions (yeah, I’m one of those “elitists”). And here is the thing: we could not agree on who was a good teacher and who was not . Actually, to say it more precisely: there were certain star professors who everyone agreed were spectacular teachers, but for the great lumpen mass of professors in what one might call the middle, there was no real defined consensus. So I have always been a little skeptical about the “grading the teachers” thing since if a bunch of (relatively) smart students cannot agree on a common set of standards, what chance does an arcahic bureaucracy have of doing the job effectively?

    That doesn’t mean there are not some egregious teachers out there who should not be fired. There are. But the obsession with letting teachers go among the Right is really unrelated to problems that our schools face. It is one of the many red herrings that abound in education and which keep this nation of ours from having the school system we deserve.

  • viciousmaniac

    Just wanted to say that I’m surprised the long-time posters here are shocked by JK’s position. The Main Scheme Media has long been turning against unions (John “Obamaphile” Alter once called the CFT the “very model of unaccountability”). It’s partly due to encroaching neoliberalism, but mostly, like I had argued then, it’s just that what nearly all public unions do these days is often indefensible.
    .
    Take for example this 2007 story about the Los Angeles DWP. 13% of the staff are in the six figure range. Welders make around $80K, nearly matching salaries I’ve had as a private sector manager. Air conditioning mechanics make nearly $90K.
    http://www.dailynews.com/ci_7040820
    .
    To put this in perspective, my fiance, a chemistry grad student, worked at a pharma lab working on a cure for cancer. The project lead, a long-time Phd, earned $90K yearly. That means, to the LA DWP, Jose Riveria the no-GED-having air conditioner mechanic is nearly as worth as much as a PhD who invested thousands of dollars and years in education leading a project to cure cancer.
    .
    To add to this, the LA DWP in Spring 2010 suggested a 20-to-30 percent increase in service costs (!) to cover the shortfalls. That was before a CBS 2 investigation that showed staff, among other things, drinking and driving on the job:

    .
    All this kind of stuff is not realistic guys; it never was, and it’s finally giving.
    .
    P.S.: Collective bargaining for public workers is pretty clearly a failed idea, as folks such as FDR and La Guardia agreed. The reason why is that the one person actually paying for the bills, the taxpayer, is not present in the room when the negotiations go down. Ostensibly, the pols are supposed to be the taxpayer representative; as we can see, that doesn’t work out too well.

  • http://smivic.wordpress.com smivic

    So elections have consequences, huh? Yep, and, like Hosni Mubarak, just found out, flawed elections, like the ones concocted by our corrupt system, have consequences, too. They are revolutions and unabated anger. Get used to it, Joe. The royalists were elected for just a little while.

  • wirkw

    So you’re saying, then, that anyone who protested against Obama in 2009 and 2010 is anti-democratic?

  • afguy

    Depends…
    .
    What were thry demonstrating for?
    .
    What were they demonstrating against?
    .
    What were their recommended solutions to both of the above?

  • http://youthculturemarrakech.wordpress.com youthculturemarrakech

    I agree with the general idea of the post, but I’m not sure that the “tyranny of the public” is such a laughable concept. There are advocacy groups that advocate perpetual decreases in taxes, so without the ability to apply SOME pressure, it seems like public employees would suffer.

    Some musings about the role of unions in a more competitive world:

    https://youthculturemarrakech.wordpress.com/2011/02/15/the-role-of-unions/

  • http://thelastfewmonths.wordpress.com ariamon

    Kill the negotiating power of the private sector employee; kill the negotiating power of the public sector employee.

    Teanazism = anti-middle class

    16 months of non-stop double digit profit EVERY SINGLE QUARTER, more than $2 Trillion cash-at-hand, more tax cuts and what do we get? Did the unemployment rate plummeted since Nov? No. You got doped.

    Vote the Teanuts out 2012. It starts now, it starts today.

  • shepherdwong

    If they were holding up a sign showing the President with a bone through his nose, they are anti-humanity.

  • http://seekel.wordpress.com seekel

    I’ll bet that Mr. Klein has no idea how much collective bargaining has helped him in the past. His casual dismissal of this attempt to undermine workers’ rights shows how little he seems to know about labor contracts or human rights. He needs to stick with novels inspired by real events.

  • http://seekel.wordpress.com seekel

    Public employees in Wisconsin are already paid less than those in comparable private jobs. The proposal is to cut total pay by about 8% and freeze pay (adjustable for inflation only) after that. You need to get your information from more reliable sources than those that mistakenly claim that teachers are very well paid.

    Public employees are willing to negotiate on wages. Walker has refused to talk to them. Walker is unable to think of anything but destroying unions.

  • http://seekel.wordpress.com seekel

    Did you complain when Republican Senators in DC used similar blocking tactics to keep the Senate from doing its job?

  • 53_3

    Just perusing and ran across this.
    .
    There is more irony in this whole thing than iron itself…

  • 53_3

    you looze.
    .
    the courts decided otherwise…

  • freeinpa

    What may be declared legal doesn’t pass the morality smell test but liberals on big on that. Having morals that is

  • freeinpa

    “16 months of non-stop double digit profit EVERY SINGLE QUARTER, more than $2 Trillion cash-at-hand, more tax cuts and what do we get

    .
    16 months of non-stop double digit profit every quarter? Apparently you must be a product of our public education system. How dare companies who take risk, pay taxes and be productive decide what to do with THEIR cash.
    .
    More of the same “it’s not fair I want mine fair share of everybody else’s hard work”–Try France

  • terryott

    Wisconsinite here. There is a misunderstanding about Wisconsin’s financial condition. I first picked up on it via Rachel Maddow, and it appears again here in one of the earlier posts. The “surplus” cited amounts to what’s in the checkbook without regard to future commitments already made.

    The state ended the FY2009 with a $2.71 billion budget deficit, 8.4% more than the prior year’s deficit, according to a state report published in the Wisconsin State Journal. The report to use, the one that matters — and that the Wisconsin State Journal story is based on — is prepared according to generally accepted accounting rules, and takes into account spending the state has promised in the future. Wisconsin’s projected deficit for the upcoming budget year is estimated to be over $3 Billion. We’ve been rated as one of the 10 “worst off” states in terms of its fiscal picture. You can read all about it here, which is the very best summary I have found:

    http://sunshinereview.org/index.php/Wisconsin_state_budget

    Another fact: Wisconsin has what is arguably the most comprehensive and progressive Civil Service System in the US. It’s been in force since 1905 and it was last revamped and improved in 2006. It provides what a union contract is likely to want re: hiring and promotion procedures, disciplinary and termination restraints, job classifications (1900+ of them), and on and on. So what exactly does the union add to all of this? Dues, for one thing, because you have to pay them in order to work. When I hear a claim (which I did) that the public employees are being pushed toward “slavery” by a “neo-Hitler”, I would like to laugh, but my tears of sympathy for the oppressed workers get in the way.

    I was just reading a comment by the editor of Milwaukee Magazine, explaining the numbers in an earlier story about who makes what $$ in Milwaukee, which they report on just about every year . The magazine had said that a (named) high school psychologist had income of $122,719, and there was a request to the editor for clarification. The compensation number, as in the case of all others in the story, included a provision for the value of their benefits package. So this person, Joseph, had cash compensation of $75,564 — and his benefits are valued at $47,155 — for which he pays either nothing or some token amount.

    As a taxpayer, it irks me that I am paying Joseph about $4,000 a month over and above salary in order to have a lush, world-class (maybe it’s “otherworldly”, actually) fringe benefits package. It just needs to be fixed.

  • http://fr0ssty.wordpress.com fr0ssty

    Joe. My. God. I am flabbergasted by this rational, reasonable article. This is the last thing I expected to see from you Mr. Klein. Bravo.

  • http://WeTwo.wordpress.com WeTwo

    Let us keep it simple Mr. Klein…you mentioned many times in your speeches about Brown vs. Board of Education, your youth days in public housing and your public education. So in a democracy there is complete justice? 1. Plessy v. Ferguson 2. Jim Crow Laws. 3. The Apartheid Legislation 5. ANTI-JEWISH LEGISLATION IN PREWAR GERMANY 6.1862 California tax on Chinese living in the state. 7. 1882 Chinese Exclusion Act 8.The Indian Removal Act 9.Panic of 1873 10.Brotherhood of Sleeping Car Porters

    “The law with us is nothing if it is not supported by public opinion.” Alexis De Tocqueville, “Democracy in America”

  • tvidie777

    OH Those poor MISTREATED teachers … THEY MAKE ON AVERAGE $89,000 A YEAR, with full medical… and a guaranteed pension that pays 90% – 100% of their original salary until the day they die… no matter how bad they stink at teaching, it’s impossible to fire them… and to top it off…

    UNION TEACHERS PAY INTO THEIR HEALTH CARE AND PENSIONS AT ABOUT HALF THE PERCENTAGE OF ALL THE REST OF US NON-UNION EMPLOYEES

    WHAT’S WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE?

    You whining teachers are making more money than the poor sap taxpayers whose money the government steals to pay you?

    BLOODSUCKING PARASITE UNION LEECHES!

  • apr2563

    Klein seems to be unaware that the trade unionists and service unionists in Egypt marched with the protesters, as they are doing through out the Middle East.

  • apr2563

    lreed580: Thank you for your service to our young and your community.

  • apr2563

    grape_crush: I worked for a few years at a small town bowling alley. I worked in the alley, fixed machines, waited table, bused and washed dishes and bartended. It was kind of fun.
    We got new owners. Everytime the workers got together after working hours in the restaurant or bar, the owner’s son, who managed the bowling alley would confront us to inform us not to think about starting a union. A topic we never discussed. Of course, being me, I had to tell him it was our right by law to organize if we chose. Of course, my hours were immediately cut. But that is how paranoid some management is about unions.
    The moron closed the bar. We tried to warn him, bowling and booze are meant for each other. My town being the home of commercial fishermen and loggers, grabbed him one night, locked him in the office and the bar was opened. It was a good night.

  • apr2563

    lreed580: I am not sure how long you have commented here., but you have to understand newfreedomblog, otherwise known as newrusty or just rusty, is a bitter, ill tempered man. He can’t be gracious enough to appreciate what others have done. He can only make defensive, paranoid, nasty comments. Congratulations on your awards.

  • 53_3

    “WHAT’S WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE?”
    .
    Ummmm.
    .
    You?

  • http://bumpyjonas.wordpress.com bgilmore62

    The governor would be honest if he had said all unions. The police and firefighters (who endorsed him) are exempt. This is political football. He went after the unions that are perceived as associated with liberal causes. If you say, the situation is dire, say it, and all unions have to lose their bargaining rights for say 1 year. The law would then expire and then we re-negotiate. Do that, but don’t sell us this madness. Walker is targeting a few unions not all of them and there is no talk about the police pension or the firefighter pension. Just be honest is all I am saying. Just say, I am going after the teachers because they are making unrealistic demands in tough times. I am sure people would respect honesty more. And no way should collective bargaining be taken away forever. Put a cap on it, and say, times are tough, so we need that. Otherwise, he might get recalled. He better watch it. Wisconsin is not Iowa. It has a strong progressive tradition.

  • newfreedomblog

    “It has a strong progressive tradition.”

    .
    And, like most progressive crap in America, it too will be challenged, done away with, and/or repealed.
    .
    Have a nice day!!
    .
    Enjoy!! :)

  • http://micksteers.wordpress.com micksteers

    On the up side, once the GOP/Federalist/Tea party revolution is complete, in 30 years or so we will be at full employment. America will be the jurisdiction of choice to outsource low-wage labor.

    No doubt the history books (carefully revised by the Texas National Private Charter Schools Education Authority, formerly the Education Department) will briefly mention that America’s dangerous flirtation with socialism and unions began and ended within a few years of the 20th Century.

  • http://teamsteriron70.wordpress.com teamsteriron70

    Newfreedomblog,

    You teabaggers are funny. I’m a teamster and proud of it. I’m the kind of guy you baggers, usually try to paint as the face of the tea party. US Marine, Hunter and Fisherman, churchgoing Sunday School teacher, come from a family with a long line of military men, cops and fireman. Deputy Chief of my local Fire Department (volunteered at Ground Zero after 9/11), Youth Football and Hockey Coach. Got one brother in Afghanistan with the US Army Rangers and one who is a State Trooper.

    This isn’t simply about teachers, this is about employees having a voice at work. This is also political, why would that punk Governor in Wisconsin exempt Unions who supported him? Hell, if anybody makes good pensions it is the cops and firefighters, and they deserve them. So do our teachers. I find it amusing that those who oppose Unions and fund the anti Union movement, dont seem to ever held a job harder than counting the dividend checks that grandaddy made sure they had.

    Working people have had enough, we are taxpayers too..and we support our Union brothers and sisters in Wisconsin. Stay Strong out there….

  • the committee

    Joe Klein,
    .
    You are an old, ancient fart who thinks wrong, old people things, which are boring. Your thoughts and opinions are so old they are basically bed-ridden, and cranky, and wet themselves all the time. You should look in the mirror every day and say to yourself, “Everyone would be happier if I weren’t so old. God, I am so old, and stupid, and boring.”

  • ifthethunderdontgetya

    Joe Klein is a corporatist toady.
    .
    That he would take the tack “Democracy means doing whatever what Republicans want, when Republicans win an election” is only a surprise to Stormfront members, teabaggers, and other fascists.
    ~

  • ifthethunderdontgetya

    Exactly right, shepardwong. I rarely ever click on Time magazine, for this very reason.
    .
    When they go bankrupt, it won’t be much of a loss. Than Joe Klein can get a job on FAUX sucking up to the plutocrats along with the other corporatists.
    ~
    .

  • ifthethunderdontgetya

    And we all know about the near-impossibility of getting criminal and morally questionable–to say nothing of less than competent–teachers fired.

    Irony dies yet another death. Can you tell me what you and your fellow Beltway gasbags have been right about these past couple decades, Joe Klein? Have you ever once felt that cheerleading for the debacle in Iraq was morally questionable? Yet here you are still, getting overpaid to write this lazy b.s.
    .
    Are you even aware that Scott Walker created this phony ‘crisis’ from whole cloth, as an excuse to make scapegoats of the public service unions? I’ll give you a pass on being deliberately deceptive…no point attributing actions to malice when being the lazy, Village gasbag that you are is just as likely.
    ~

  • http://swamplandblogs.wordpress.com jerryball

    Zowie, I was really going to flame this misinformation, but then I started reading the comments. No need for my redundant shame on Klein, most has already been said. But here goes anyway …. Time, its time to roll out the last issue of Time Magazine when statements like “He is also trying to limit the unions’ abilities to negotiate work rules” when we all know the truth is the governor is trying to DELETE FOREVER negotiations through false manipulation of the budget overflow to a budget shortfall. Mr. Klein is the all-time professional flame-fanner of fibs. Even a bigger flame-fanner than Jessie Jackson and Reverend Sharpton. This article is more perjurious than Fox Fraudcasting.

  • http://thuriferthecenser.wordpress.com thuriferthecenser

    Union Brownshirts try to tear down Tea Party podium

  • nozment

    I’ve heard this argument, repeated by Klein here, about “elections having consequences.” Okay, we’re talking a low turn-out election where maybe 33% of the state actually voted for the guy. Running on a platform of cutting spending, tightening the belt fiscal responsibility etc. Okay. But he introduces a bill late Friday to be voted on the following Wednesday that would essentially dismantle 50 years of public workers’ unions in WI. Bit drastic there, isn’t it?

    I can imagine a scenario where a guy running on a democratic platform was elected and he turned out to REALLY BE a socialist. Two months into office he submits a bill that will redistribute wealth and have all public workers paid exactly the same, to be carried 5 days later in a vote by a congress packed in his favor. Guess what would happen? The Republican congresspeople would skip the state, thousands of people would turn out protesting, and I wonder if there would be idiots out there saying, “Hey, dude, elections have consequences.”

    C’mon, Gov. Walker, slow it down. Have some discussion and debate before drastically undoing 50 years. We hear people say “Obamacare” got “rushed” through after a solid year of debate. Five days? Really?

  • http://gborch.wordpress.com gborch

    Wow, Joe is dead on! I was at the rally’s yesterday. They union protestors are wrong, running from the vote is not part of a democracy. Conservatives did not use this tactic the last several years when tables were turned and the democrats controlled both houses and the Govenors office. Thanks Joe for a great summary!

  • cranky2

    Way to go, Joe. I normally don’t agree with you, but respect your reasoning. In this case, you hit a homerun. You articulated the ideal conditions for public sector (at least in the education business) improvement. The ability to pay salaries that attract the best and brightest, coupled with work rules that enable their encouragement and the removal of non-performers. Not that this is easy – private industry has plenty of problems managing its own performance, but that’s not even in the same ballpark as public sector waste and stupidity.

    My wife is a public school teacher (who is not the least persuaded to our position here) who is a top performer. She is paid poorly for her inspired effort, and must constantly be on guard for bureaucratic pitfalls and ambushes that could cost her employment. The union plays on the latter fear, claiming the union is the only reason any of them have a job. This might be true for the non-performers, but in a world where the schools could act (and be held accountable) to pursue more effective practices to educate kids, the cream of the crop would experience a renaissance. There is an enormous, untapped potential among sincerely dedicated educators who are routinely discouraged from doing the things they know will work. Pay them more and hold them accountable for the same. The good ones will stay and the losers won’t survive.

  • mogar2

    I frankly don’t care what happens to unions in general and the teachers union in particular. They are responsible for the substandard education in this country. If they can’t be reigned in then it would be best to chuck the entire school system and start over. This would be the best outcome for the taxpayers and the kids in the long run.

  • subframer

    i’m actually stunned to be reading an article by Joe Klein that speaks directly to truth in an area of liberal dominance. “Work rules” by janitors, to not perform janitorial duties. Impossible guarantees re pensions and healthcare. This is the domain of the public sector union. They want what they want, with a guaranteed raise every single year, and they don’t much care how YOU pay for it. It is time for these thugs to be checked, permanently. Despite Obama’s disgusting class warfare rhetoric and ill-conceived interjection into a matter that has NOTHING to do with him, most reasonable people have had it with public sector unions. They’re greedy, arrogant, thuggish, and it’s time for them to go……

  • subframer

    100% correct

  • neonnautilus

    The TeaParty protests are noble and brave, but the union protests are undemocratic? The tea partyers can loudly disrupt town hall forums because they are patriots, but the unions cannot assemble peaceably to protest laws that take away their rights because they are greedy tyrants dictating to the government?

    Teachers and nurses and garbage men are bankrupting our country? What’s that you say? because they are lazy, overpaid and ne’er do wells in your book. But those Wall Streeters and banksters on the other hand, talk about true blue (or red if you prefer) Americans!

  • cosmotopper777

    Thanks Mr. Klein for your intellectual honesty and compelling commentary on the confrontation in Wisconsin.

  • johnleehooker

    My god, those GREEDY TAXPAYERS. The horror of having to CONTRIBUTE A BIT MORE TO YOUR BENEFITS AND PENSION. It’s a travesty.

    Of course I want to be paid w/ taxpayer funds why not get more taxpayer funds to pay for everything I want?

  • http://donothaveone.wordpress.com leftwingpatriot

    I think they are learning from the tea party people, minus the big corporate and media organizing.

    After the 2008 election,Wall Street and the Insurance industry got the tea people got into the streets and demanded that the majority do the bidding of the minority.

    It worked for them.

  • http://keithbo61.wordpress.com keithbo61

    @Seekel, on average private sector employees pay 7.5% of their salary to SS, 1/3 of their medical insurance and 66.7% of their 401k. When public sector employees pay none of the above, your argument is quite laughable. Also, if public sector workers make so much less than their private sector counterparts, why are they in the public sector???

  • http://donothaveone.wordpress.com leftwingpatriot

    johnleehooker said,

    My god, those GREEDY TAXPAYERS. The horror of having to CONTRIBUTE A BIT MORE TO YOUR BENEFITS AND PENSION. It’s a travesty.

    _______________________________

    State employee unions made $100 million in concessions in December to ease the budgetary strain.

    This is about striping them of the right to bargain collectively.

  • http://keithbo61.wordpress.com keithbo61

    @thunderblow, Scott Walker has been in office for 6 weeks and you are claiming he manufactured a $3 billion deficit. It seems to find a gasbag one need only look in the mirror.

  • rvail136

    I can’t remember ever having agreed with Mr. Klein on anything before, but I agree fully with his comments in this column. However, the problem of citing the GOP in Washington over the past 2 years (while the the Dem’s held super-majorities [i.e. filibuster proof majority in the Senate] in both houses) is vastly diffierent than the situation in Wisconsin…

    In WI, the Democratic minority has abandoned their elected offices and left the state in order to keep a vote from occuring…in Washington, the GOP used parliamentary procedures that were passed their respective houses to slow down legislation…even though the Demcratic majorities held filibuster proof majorities (in the Senate at least), but couldn’t get enough of their own members to vote FOR their own agenda…it took 10 months merely to pass ObamaCare, which 63% of the country desires repealed!

    In WI, the unions are attempting to overturn the will ofthe majority of voters…who elected Mr. Walker on his platform to reform the process the state uses…that was his platform. He won, as Mr. Obama said, “elections have consequences…”

    Futhermore, teacher’s wildcat strike, which is what you call “calling in sick” in order to attend a politcal rally…is illegal. I belong to the United Brotherhood of Carpenter’s and Joiners, Mid-Atlantic Regional Council of Carpenter’s, Baltimore District. Under our union negotiated contract, getting a fake Dr’s note and avoiding work to attend a purely political function, without prior approval of managment is a terminatable offense! All those teachers and public employees who called in sick to attend those rallies last week must and should be terminated from their positions. That’s the law, that’s the contract that they agreed to…anthing less is hypocrisy!

    Rich Vail
    Pikesville, MD
    http://thevailspot.blogspot.com

  • paminwi

    I’m here in WI and a few “facts” for you not in Wisconsin. The state unions had a chance to settle their contract BEFORE Gov. Walker was elected. At that time our Gov. was a democrat (Jim Doyle) and both the Assembly and Senate were democratically controlled. So, they had their best chance with that set of circumstances to ratify their contracts (10 different unions). They could not even come to agreement under those most favorable conditions. Now, we had an election and guess what, elections have consequences! The democrats who have run away ARE NOT doing their duty.

    In the last budget cycle (WI has a 2 year budget cycle which ends this summer – so Gov. Walker is still operating under the last administrations budget) Gov. Doyle proposed his budget on a Wednesday, with no public hearings WHATSOEVER, the Democrats schedule a vote for Thursday and held a vote. The republicans did not like the budget but SHOWED UP FOR WORK and voted against it. That budget included raiding what is called the Patient Compensation Fund for $200 million. Well, after a lawsuit from the administrators of that fund which IS NOT supported by state funds, our Supreme Court said what Doyle did was illegal, so NOW, Gov. Walker has to find an additional $200 million PLUS interest, to repay that fund.

    Now, for those of you who say WI does not have a deficit, according to Politifact that story is FALSE. See attached article. http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2011/feb/18/rachel-maddow/rachel-maddow-says-wisconsin-track-have-budget-sur/

    Lastly, I was at our capitol yesterday and saw those doctors handing out “SICK NOTES” to teachers when we could all see they were not sick! I even heard one teacher ask if the doctor could please write the note to include NEXT WEEK! Please, this is despicable behavior and nothing, absolutely, NOTHING excuses it!

  • http://mrduffin.wordpress.com mrduffin

    I am a retired public employee in NC. I paid into my retirement and a portion of my insurance. We had no union and did fine. Wisconsin will too once the union is gone.

  • http://dean112263.wordpress.com dean112263

    Mr. Klein,

    I am surpised at your stance on this issue.

    Unfortunately, your reasoning isn’t shared by many on the left in my state of Wisconsin.

    Sadly, it’s the usual GOP = rich fatcats vs. Dem = the little guy argument.

    Will it take the Gov. to lay off thousands of state employees plus local/county gov’ts to lay off the same amount before the union sympathizers realize how bad things are?

    The class warfare game has to stop on both sides. There is an economic reality that Govs like Thompson and Doyle kicked the can down the road on this issue. Walker is the poor sod left to clean up the mess.

    Unfortunately, this mess will be a picnic compared to what will happen in DC if the gov’t doesn’t get it’s own house in order.

    Are you watching this Mr. President? Save the political rhetoric to get re-elected and actually LEAD.

  • paminwi

    I am so tired of the Rep = fatcats versus Dem = little guy it makes me want to puke. Who got all the wall Street money during that last presidential election? HIS NAME IS OBAMA! Who leads Moveon.org – a BILLIONAIRE name Soros! Who has been one of Obamas biggest CORPORATE PROMOTERS – GE! You people who believe that rich equals Republicans and the little guy equals Democrats buy into the crap the mainstream media wants you to believe.

    Get real – there are plenty of rich people in each party and plenty of middle America in each party. It’s class warfare that the unions want to promote and the media supply them the megaphone!

  • http://donothaveone.wordpress.com leftwingpatriot

    Actually, paminwi, EVERYONE says that:

    I am ALSO tired of the Republicans = Real Americans v Democrats = pointy headed elites.

    Who got all the wall Street money during the 2000 and 2004 presidential election?
    His name was BUSH!
    Truth is, it was the free marketers , including Clinton that deregulated Wall Street.

    Who leads the pro corporate Tea parties? BILLIONAIRES named the Koch Brothers.

    Who has been one of Bush’s biggest corporate PROMOTERS, and Obamas biggest CORPORATE DETRACTORS,… FOX NEWS!

    You people who believe that the GOP represents “Real Americans” are buying into the crap that the mainstream corporate media markets to you.

    As Warren Buffet said, Of Course it’s class warfare…and MY class is winning!’…and Fox news and all the mass media provide the megaphone…. Especially Fox with their tea parties.

  • paminwi

    SO… leftwingpatriot: you’re worried about Fox News being a shill for the right wing? Well, guess what, am worried about NBC, ABC, CBS, CNN, MSNBC, The NY Times, The Washington Post, and on and on and on and on being shills for Obama.

    So you are worried about Fox News and the Koch Brothers, please, get real!

    In Wisconsin, I’ll repeat what you so graciously gave me as a great quote: Scott Walker and the newly elected Senate and Assembly will say : “My class (party) is winning! So get over yourselves and abide by the electoral process! or do you want to circumvent that? Because, I am SURE, there had to have been some fraud because Republicans won!

  • http://3fifteen.wordpress.com 3fifteen

    You don’t know why janitors in public service should not make $60,000 a year.

    Really.

    I have the answer.

    Are you ready?

  • http://ericdlock.wordpress.com ericdlock

    Great post Square1. I couldn’t agree more. Journalists have an obligation to get the facts straight before they launch into ideological screeds. I’m sure Klein can make a great case about the shortcomings of public employee unions; but he still has a journalistic obligation to acquaint himself with the facts of an issue or event before concluding that it fits the general pattern he suspects it will fall into.

    My kids go to school in Madison; and while I’m often critical of schools and teacher unions that sometimes obsess over turf or the letter of union rules on one issue or another, I’ve found MORE examples of teachers and union leaders who are flexible, not rule obsessed and extraordinarily generous with their time and efforts.

    The world is pretty damned gray — and because of that Klein, and all journalists, should heed the best principle of their profession: to get the facts of each particular situation right. Do that first, draw conclusions later. JK forgets that principle waaaaay too much these days.

    Eric

  • http://jeffersonmadisontimemachine.wordpress.com jeffersonmadisontimemachine

    Do the Kochs’ pay you too, like Gov Walker, Tim Phillips, Tea Party, etc., to destroy 1776 and democracy so a plutocracy can get richer while Americans are made slaves?

  • http://donothaveone.wordpress.com leftwingpatriot

    paminwi,
    No, I’m not worried that Fox News is being a shill for the right wing, I think that Fox News has REPLACED the RNC; As David Frum said, “”Republicans originally thought that Fox worked for us and now we’re discovering we work for Fox. And this balance here has been completely reversed. The thing that sustains a strong Fox network is the thing that undermines a strong Republican party.”

    As for all the other media outlets being liberal; that’s an old talkingpoint and repeating it over and over does not make it true.

    As Sumner Redstone said; in Time (10/4/04):
    “I don’t want to denigrate Kerry… but from a Viacom standpoint, the election of a Republican administration is a better deal. Because the Republican administration has stood for many things we believe in, deregulation and so on. The Democrats are not bad people…. But from a Viacom standpoint, we believe the election of a Republican administration is better for our company.”

    And Richard Bonn, former RNC chair,
    “There is some strategy to bashing the liberal media…if you watch any great coach,what they do is try to ‘work the refs’. Maybe the ref will cut you some slack the next time”.

    And Bruce Bartlett said in NRO: “the idea that the media tilts towards liberals is absurd.”

    There is no doubt that the Koch Brothers’ Americans for Prosperity and The lobbyist Dick Army organized the Tea party and that Fox News promoted it.

    As for Scott Walker and “my class”; somehow I doubt that if you were part of Warren Buffet’s class, that you would be here writing on a little blog with the rest us hoi polloi.

    As for; ‘So get over yourselves and abide by the electoral process! or do you want to circumvent that?’

    I guess we owe about as much respect to that as you showed to the electoral process after the 2008 election.

    Actually, leaving the state to avoid a quorum goes back to the 1700s and the vote on the Constitution….Abraham Lincoln jumped out of a window.

  • http://beaverpig.wordpress.com beaverpig

    Joe is absolutely right: Public employee unions do not serve the same role as private employee unions. Private employee unions help strike the balance between labor and management in many industries. Public employee unions are a menace to society. The unions themselves live only as leeches upon the taxpayers’ veins. It maddens me that my tax dollars get syphoned off to line the pockets of union bosses and are used to perpetuate work rules contrary to the public interest. Having been surrounded by public employees in NYC for quite some time, I’ve come to appreciate the nonsense their unions perpetuate… and the lack of real work most of them do.

  • http://beaverpig.wordpress.com beaverpig

    During the 2009/2010 election cycle, I travelled across the country attending mostly Democratic events, such as those sponsored by the likes of Harry Reid and Patty Murray, and I never saw TEA Party protestors showing up in any way other than in individual cars. They always carried unique and divergent signs (clear indicia of true grassroots) Countering them were usually union members (or their spouses or kids) who were bused in and paid to stand and waive pre-printed signs about issues they usually didn’t even care about (I know they didn’t care because I asked them). In this case, I think most of the people protesting care, because they like their taxpayer-funded security.

  • http://donothaveone.wordpress.com leftwingpatriot

    beaverpig said,
    “Public employee unions are a menace to society”
    ________________

    I think the EXACT opposite is true; Public CORPORATE unions, (like K Street Lobbyists) are the menace to society.

    They are the ones who line their pockets at taxpayers expense and rarely give anything back.

  • http://3fifteen.wordpress.com 3fifteen

    Promixr…are you there?

  • http://andyolsen.wordpress.com andyolsen

    Joe, you’ve really demonstrated that you do not understand what is happening here in Wisconsin.

    1) Walker introduced this 144-page, sweeping bill and demanded that it be passed WITHIN ONE WEEK.

    2) Walker REFUSED TO NEGOTIATE with the unions — at all.

    3) Stripping public employees of the internationally-recognized human right of collective bargaining does not save any money.

    4) This bill does many other things: paves the way to cut Medicaid. It also allows for a no-bid sale of the state’s energy facilities.

    Are you behind all that, Joe? Really?

    Walker refuses to negotiate with labor, with Democrats, with anyone. He is behaving like a little dictator.

    And, Joe, this statement from you is nothing but a dream:
    “That role will be kept intact in Wisconsin.”

    Really? Why do you say that? Do you actually KNOW ANYTHING about political life in Wisconsin?

  • http://andyolsen.wordpress.com andyolsen

    You are quite right. Walker is working closely with the political apparatus of Koch Industries.

    Example: The very same day that Walker introduced this bill, the Koch-founded and funded Club for Growth put up radio ads attacking public employees and demanding support for the bill.

    Bear in mind, state legislators did not even see this bill yet which, apparently, Koch Industries had.

    Joe loves all that.

  • http://andyolsen.wordpress.com andyolsen

    Joe, here is another part of this railroaded bill which you are implicitly supporting.

    First, the hearing on this extensive bill was very limited, until Democrats demanded the hearing be extended.

    Last Friday when this bill went to the Assembly floor, the chamber broke for caucus meetings, as they do nearly every day.

    Friday was different, however, as the Republicans returned to the chamber and then immediately began to vote before Democrats returned to the chamber!!

    This was a flagrant violation of the rules. Watch the video at this link, Part 4, for the fireworks:
    http://www.wiseye.org/Programming/VideoArchive/EventDetail.aspx?evhdid=3759

    ALSO: Joe, in the election last November Walker did not tel anyone he was going to take these measures. Yes, there was an election. Maybe you can show us where Walker said he would strip employees of collective bargaining?

  • http://andyolsen.wordpress.com andyolsen

    Also, Joe, the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel and Politifact have reviewed Gov Walker’s claims that his proposal would leave “collective bargaining is fully intact.”

    They awarded that claim a “Liar, Liar pants on fire” rating.

    http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2011/feb/18/scott-walker/wisconsin-gov-scott-walker-says-his-budget-repair-/

    He is UNION BUSTING. And Joe Klein is helping bust the unions.

  • http://andyolsen.wordpress.com andyolsen

    Joe Klein actually demonstaters that he does not understand what is happening in Wisconsin.

    This statement is borderline insipid:
    “Despite their questionable provenance, public unions can serve an important social justice role, guaranteeing that a great many underpaid workers–school bus drivers, janitors (outside of New York City), home health care workers–won’t be too severely underpaid. That role will be kept intact in Wisconsin.”

    There’s no reason given for why Joe has this confidence. He, at least, acknowledges the likely outcome.

    Joe also doesn’t bother to look closely at the numbers. For some public employees it will wind up being a 15% pay cut. 15%!!!

    We had tea partiers in town this weekend and I tried to engage the more lucid ones. They were actually outraged that (some) public employees have pensions!! Who thinks like that? Beggar they neighbor!

    I added more comments on page 4 of these comments. Joe really boofed badly on this one and should retract. For one, if you don’t know why public unions are needed, why not solicit an opinion before publishing?

  • http://andyolsen.wordpress.com andyolsen

    @keithbo6, you demonstrate ignorance of the issues.

    The budget repair bill is for the current biennium. the shortfall is claimed to under $200 million (I’m tired and not looking it up to confirm) while the Walker tax breaks were FOR MORE!

    The number you reference is the inflated number that Walker keeps repeating for the NEXT biennium.

    Not that facts matter to a conservative, I know.

  • http://andyolsen.wordpress.com andyolsen

    Thank you for posting this information.

    I am disgusted with Joe Klein’s reckless editorializing here. Reminds me of his calls for us to invade and occupy Iraq. How did that go, Joe?

    We’re talking about peoples’ lives here.

  • http://3fifteen.wordpress.com 3fifteen

    Promixr? Has anyone seen promixr?

  • http://andyolsen.wordpress.com andyolsen

    Today the Associated Press issued a stunning correction on the “facts” about this story that they have published for 3 days.

    It appears that Joe Klein was using the same erroneous “facts” when he penned this story as he said “And it seems to me that Governor Scott Walker’s basic requests are modest ones”

    The AP corrected, can Joe Klein?
    http://www.abc3340.com/Global/story.asp?S=14071725

    “MADISON, Wis. (AP) – In stories published Feb. 16, 17 and 18 about Gov. Scott Walker’s plan to cut state workers’ benefits, The Associated Press erroneously reported that state employees’ share of pension and health care costs would rise by an average of 8 percent. The reductions would be equivalent to an 8 percent pay cut.”

    My emphasis. Because, you know, it’s kind of relevant.

    Mr Klein, please gather the facts, re-assess and re-address. You are trivializing some painful cuts to take home pay for people who make far less money than you do. In many cases they have family to support.

    Also, please try to avoid being haunted by your 30-year-distant past and deal with the world today, as it is.

  • http://andyolsen.wordpress.com andyolsen

    Regarding Joe’s tirade on scurrilous charge that workers who want to keep collective bargaining rights actually hate democracy…

    Walker did not win a mandate. He won 52-47%. Does Joe demand that the 47% be dispossessed of expressing their views?

    And, Walker did not put the issue of repealing the collective bargaining rights on the table during the campaign. The people did not vote on that and the people still have representatives.

    Polls show a majority think Walker is over-reaching.

  • http://andyolsen.wordpress.com andyolsen

    Here is more video on the railroading. This video has been subject to online espionage. It’s been hacked and taken down several times. MSNBC has now loaded it to the web.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/41709764#41709764

  • pearlybaker

    So unions are undemocratic – Did Walker run for governor on a platform to abolish collective bargaining? Did he run on a platform to sell 36 power plants to the Kochs using a no bid process? No? Then the only democratic action is the people in the streets trying to stop things that were not part of the election conversation. This is political gamesmanship and has nothing to do with the financial situation of the Wisconsin government. Their governor is a liar and Joke Line needs to get a brain.

  • http://leftcoastrightbrain.wordpress.com leftcoastrightbrain

    Liberal rage is so…inspiring.

    Used to be a Time reader then noticed the slight leftward drift. The internet gave me the chance to view the comments of Time readers. No slight about it…totally left leaning.

    Klein actually understands the situation, explains why, and gets bashed by the loons on the extreme left.

    To say that state workers are taking a “pay cut” by having to participate in the purchase of their healthcare and contribute to their retirement accounts is absurd. I’ve been doing this for years. They’ve had a free ride and it’s time their net pay reflects their contributions to their benefits.

  • http://leftcoastrightbrain.wordpress.com leftcoastrightbrain

    Abolish collective bargain? Really? Did you read the proposed bill? They can still bargain, just not about benefits. Big whooop.

    The Koch’s? Really? How intellectually lazy is that argument?

  • http://3fifteen.wordpress.com 3fifteen

    Hmmm….the brave and noisy advocate of $60,000 per year janitors seems to have run away.

  • http://sherryopine.wordpress.com sheeeeeit

    You could not pay me enough to be a teacher. They have my utmost respect.

  • http://btkmk.wordpress.com btkmk

    It takes a lot of courage to break with the party line when the party is wrong. I had lumped Time in with NYT/Fox as purely, polemically biased, but you unseated that notion.

    One can agree or disagree that the way to solve a state budget crisis is to reduce total comp to state workers, but to anyone who is a fan of democracy, there can be no agreement that a special interest group can storm the capital and disenfranchise millions of Wisconsin voters by bringing their duly elected government to a halt.

    The Wisconsin democrats who have fled the state to create an impasse remind me of a juror whose vote has been bought by the mob to hang a jury so the mafia don gets off with a mistrial. They should be ashamed.

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