Re: Wisconsin: The Hemlock Revolution

John Boehner argues the proper frame for the Madison protests is not the uprising in Egypt but last year’s skirmishes in Greece: “When the American people watched the people of Greece take to the streets to protest cuts to unsustainable government programs, they worried it might foreshadow events in our nation’s distant future – but today, we see the same sort of protests on the streets of Madison, fueled by President Obama’s own political machine,” said the House Speaker. Boehner blasted the President’s political organization, Organizing for America, for its decision to “demagogue reform-minded governors.”

With party leaders weighing in, operatives converging on Madison and similar gatherings planned in neighboring states like Ohio and Indiana, Wisconsin’s worker protests have quickly ballooned into a national issue. At the center of it is Scott Walker, who at this rate may decide to marshal his newfound notoriety and run for president as a svelter Chris Christie. (Predictably, the anti-union Christie publicly backed Walker’s bill.) As commenter jsfox and others pointed out yesterday, a Jan. 31 memo from the state’s nonpartisan Legislative Fiscal Bureau estimated the state had a $121 million surplus through the remainder of the fiscal year– not, as Walker said, a $137 million shortfall. It’s true that Walker’s slate of tax cuts and corporate incentives has walloped Wisconsin’s budget. But as the Journal-Sentinel points out:

There’s more to the memo. The budget surplus will only happen if the state keeps its spending in line with what has been budgeted. But the memo lays out about $258 million in spending by the state that is projected to go over budget. That’s in several areas, including health care spending for the poor, prisons and a payment due to Minnesota in December after the canceling of an income tax agreement between the two states. Once this over-budget spending is factored in, the state will be unable to pay all its bills this fiscal year if no action is taken. “We have $121 million in the bank but if we addressed the $258 million in shortfalls then we’re in the hole by $137 million,” said Bob Lang, the director of the Legislative Fiscal Bureau.

Two further points. In assessing the “budget-repair” bill, it makes sense to bifurcate its components, since some have an immediate monetary effect and some don’t. Asking public workers to contribute more of their pay to foot the bill for escalating health care costs is not unreasonable, given the strains on underfunded state pension accounts. Shelly Moore, for example, told she was more than willing to consider such a concession, because she accepted the state was in crisis. Stripping away the long-held right to collectively bargain is another animal entirely. It has no direct effect on the budget beyond the assumption that it will hold down pay and benefits in the future.

In his earlier post, Joe refers to this outcome as a proper “rebalancing of power.” I think this transfers resentment for public-union bosses onto the workers people they represent. The job-creation mantras people love to chant does not always extend to government jobs, as Boehner made clear this week. The bill in Wisconsin would affect a broad swath of public workers–everyone but police, firefighters and state troopers–but take teachers as an example. Yes, it’s way too hard to fire bad teachers. But we smear good ones with the same brush. In his State of the Union last month, President Obama noted that teachers are known as “nation-builders” in Korea. “Here in America, it’s time we treated the people who educate our children with the same level of respect,” he said. If you take a stroll around Internet comment boards (not just this one, though it’s certainly the case here), it’s clear that many people consider them lazy, overpaid parasites instead. The U.S. lags behind many of its competitors in student achievement, and this attitude is one reason why we’ll stay there.

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  • Paul-no not that one

    Word.

  • allthingsinaname

    “it’s clear that many people consider them lazy, overpaid parasites instead. The U.S. lags behind many of its competitors in student achievement, and this attitude is one reason why we’ll stay there.”
    .
    Thank you.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    It pays to remember that we are just now witnessing the second show dropping on the long-term ‘starve the beast’ strategy. All the whining you hear about “there’s no money”, “We’re broke” and “the spending is unsustainable” are a direct result of the decade long mantra of ‘cutting taxes will grow the economy” and “It doesn’t make sense to punish our most productive sector”. The fact that cutting taxes didn’t grow the economy and that corporations have been particularly stingy in the “job creation” even though profits are at pre-recession levels reminds us that if we let the Republicans get their way, we’ll be right back to the stagnation that marked the Bush years (only with a higher baseline of unemployment.)

    Blaming public sector workers for what’s wrong with our eceomy is a particularly brazen crock but apparently there’s no shortage of paople willing to play along.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    show = shoe

  • shepherdwong

    Yes, it’s way too hard to fire bad teachers.
    .
    Same with doctors. At least teachers aren’t killing anyone.

    The report apparently shows there are 2,000 deaths/year from unnecessary surgery; 7000 deaths/year from medication errors in hospitals; 20,000 deaths/year from other errors in hospitals; 80,000 deaths/year from infections in hospitals; 106,000 deaths/year from non-error, adverse effects of medications – these total up to 225,000 deaths per year in the US from iatrogenic causes which ranks these deaths as the # 3 killer. Iatrogenic is a term used when a patient dies as a direct result of treatments by a physician, whether it is from misdiagnosis of the ailment or from adverse drug reactions used to treat the illness. (drug reactions are the most common cause).

    Taken together with exploding health care cost inflation, it looks like it’s doctors who are bankrupting the country. Maybe we should take it out of their salaries and retirement accounts.

  • shepherdwong

    Though, it’s definitely also a show.

  • shepherdwong
  • apr2563

    Alex: Joe Klein is a one note idiot when it comes to the topic of education reform. I ran across and apt term:
    Pundidiot!

  • Paul-no not that one

    “Blaming public sector workers for what’s wrong with our economy”
    .
    I remember asking my brother in the spring of 2006 “Why are the republicans so angry? They control everything.”
    .
    Answer “They have to have someone to blame for their lot in life, even if the people they blame have nothing to do with it. Otherwise they would have to blame themselves. ‘My life stinks and it can’t be my fault!’”
    .
    Kind of harsh but not far from the truth.

  • 53_3

    Have the Teabaggers noted the size of these demonstrations yet?
    .
    I’d like to point out that they dwarf every one of the TP rallies held there, and almost all anywhere else in the United States.
    .
    I think that the TP should take notes because no one needed crackpot talking heads to mobilize them.
    .
    Beware of dog…

  • shepherdwong

    Considering his Third-way, centrist bona fides, you might even apply Krugman’s new favorite word: agnotology, i.e., culturally-induced ignorance or doubt.
    .
    http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/17/agnotology/

  • apr2563

    http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/wis-dem-unions-willing-to-come-to-the-table—-but-walker-refused-video-1.php?ref=fpb
    .
    “Wisconsin state Sen. Julie Lassa, one of the Democrats who fled the state in order to block the three-fifths quorum for Republican Gov. Scott Walker’s budget and its anti-public union proposals, said on MSNBC Friday that public employees are willing to make sacrifices — but that Walker isn’t willing to negotiate with them.”
    .
    “So they are willing to come to the table, they are willing to pay more for their health insurance, they’re willing to pay more for their retirement. But so far, Governor Walker has refused, and repeatedly refused, to meet with these workers, who are willing to be part of the solution. All they are asking is that the Governor come to the table, and to negotiate with them.”

    Meanwhile, in the Middle East people are dying to get their rights to organize, vote and negotiate.

  • 53_3
  • 53_3
  • Paul-no not that one

    “Republicans in the Assembly began quickly voting on a bill late Friday to take away union rights from public workers, without Democrats present.
    .
    Democrats charged into the chamber to stop them, but not before Republicans took a key vote.
    .
    Assembly Minority Leader Peter Barca (D-Kenosha) called the move an “illegal vote” and has demanded that Republicans rescind the vote.
    .
    Republicans had called lawmakers to the floor at 5 p.m., but they began voting minutes before that, when Democrats were not yet on the floor.
    .
    As Democrats entered the chamber and screamed to stop the proceedings, Republican staff urged leaders to “keep going, keep going.” Republicans took their vote before finally recognizing Barca.
    .
    “Unbelievable!” Barca screamed. “Unprecedented! Un-American! Not in keeping with the values of the state. You should be ashamed of yourselves.”
    .
    The Assembly is now debating – loudly, angrily – on how they will proceed.
    .
    The vote Republicans took prevents the bill from being amended. It would still need to have two more votes to move it to the Senate.”
    .
    http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/116470423.html
    .
    4:47 PM CST

  • 53_3

    Milwaukee’s Teabaggers, a while ago, plus a very incriminating sign:
    http://dancody.org/archives/video-from-milwaukee-tea-party-protest-crowd-size-again-over-stated.html

  • gysgt213

    Alex. I seriously wish you and Joe woudl some research on this issue before offering your opinions. Its plainly obvious that neither you or Joe have because you had you would have to be schooled by commenters here on this board and you would know the following.
    .
    You would know that the state workers in WI have been without a contract for some time. You also know that a democrat help scuttled the approval of the contracts last year and was rewarded with a government job in Walker’s administration. You would also know that Walker had a hand in this even though he had not yet taken office yet.
    .
    But then again there is a lot you apparently don’t know and don’t care to find out before offering your opinion on how reasonable Walker is being and pretending that this just started with Walker nicely asking workers to take a cut and that’s it.
    .
    http://lacrossetribune.com/news/local/article_fe04c42c-08db-11e0-b810-001cc4c002e0.html

  • 53_3
  • swissArmyBrainBETA

    come on, trying to tie that into this post ridiculous. says nothing about firing rules, and they’re not state employees.

  • square1

    John Boehner argues the proper frame for the Madison protests is not the uprising in Egypt but last year’s skirmishes in Greece

    Yes, he does. And John Boehner is an alcoholic clown. But thanks for passing this along.

  • Jonathan Evans

    So Joe’s a courageous truth-teller when you agree with him and an idiot when you don’t. I think your litmus test is a little transparent.

    And I disagree with Klein and agree with Altman on this one.

  • gysgt213

    “John Boehner argues the proper frame for the Madison protests is not the uprising in Egypt but last year’s skirmishes in Greece: “When the American people watched the people of Greece take to the streets to protest cuts to unsustainable government programs, they worried it might foreshadow events in our nation’s distant future.”
    .
    Alex-might have also been nice of you to note that America and the Greece situtation are nothing, nothing, nothing alike. And to compare us to Greece display and amount of ignorance that shouldn’t be tolerated in American discourse by pols or by the media to uninformed to point that basic fact out to his readers.
    .
    In the midst of their sovereign debt crisis, Europeans seem to be taking comfort in California’s budget travails. For one, ECB President Jean Claude Trichet recently suggested that while Europe had its Greece, the United States had an even larger Californian problem. Sadly, this comparison reflects a basic lack of appreciation of the fundamental ways in which the Californian situation differs from that of Greece. In particular, it glosses over the fact that, unlike Greece’s real threat to the continuation of the Euro in its present form, California does not pose a similar threat to the US dollar.
    .
    There can be no gainsaying that California is presently confronting an extremely troubling budget situation. Plagued by political gridlock and constrained by a variety of popularly approved Budget Propositions that highly limit the room for corrective budget action, California is having extreme difficulty in balancing its current budget as it is legally obliged to do. As if to underline these difficulties, last year the Californian government was forced to issue IOUs to pay for income tax refunds.
    .
    While California certainly has budget problems that should not be minimized, they pale in comparison to those of Greece. Whereas California’s budget deficit presently amounts to less than 2 percent of its US$ 2 trillion economy, Greece’s budget deficit has now reached a staggering 12 ¾ percent of its US$300 billion economy. This difference must make one think that the eventual correction of the Californian budget deficit would have around one fifth of the negative impact on its economy as the necessary correction of the Greek budget deficit would have on the Greek economy.
    .

    http://www.aei.org/article/101715

  • Paul-no not that one

    ” The governor’s office announced Friday evening that Gov. Scott Walker has rescheduled his budget address to the Joint Session of the Wisconsin Legislature.
    He was scheduled to give the address Tuesday night.
    .
    Walker’s spokesman, Cullen Werwie, released the following statement:
    “Wisconsin is facing a $136.7 million deficit in the current fiscal year. The importance of passing this budget repair bill for Wisconsin’s fiscal health cannot be overstated. It is for this reason that Governor Walker’s budget address has been rescheduled for March 1.”
    .
    http://www.wisn.com/politics/26920003/detail.html
    .
    5:42 CST

  • newfreedomblog

    My o’ my Alex. You are going to be the new sweetheart of the left-wingers here in the swamp. Congratulations!!
    .
    Oh and for the record as I posted on Joe Klein’s thread on the same subject, and as a response to jsfox, please provide the clear facts in the case of the “tax cuts” and “give aways” you claim are resulting in the deficit for WI. As I posted to jsfox in the link he provides from TPM which has spun this out beyond Pluto in favor of liberals, the following…
    .

    “Thanks for the link, jsfox. Tax cuts to basically bring in more jobs through relocation of businesses to Wisconsin, right? Estimated at 117 million. So it is not a tax cut across the board for all businesses in Wisconsin, but a tax cut to POTENTIAL businesses who will bring in new jobs and income tax money from NEW businesses. Do I have that right?
    .
    See when the whole truth and nothing but the truth is brought forward, instead of TPM spin for the liberal agenda, then things are much clearer.”

    .
    Then you repeat the same lie yet again…
    .

    “It’s true that Walker’s slate of tax cuts and corporate incentives has walloped Wisconsin’s budget.”

    .
    The so-called tax cuts and corporate incentives only come into play for any NEW business or companies who want to relocate to Wisconsin, IF Wisconsin is so lucky to attract any of these new businesses with these incentives. That’s it. The real deficits are in healthcare expenses, thanks to ObamaCare. Deficits in unfunded liabilities for pension plans, yes the same pension plans the Gov of Wisconsin is concerned about. And the lack of revenue brought into the State due to the dismal economic condition the entire country is in thanks to Obama.
    .
    What are the expense that the Gov is planning on which may cause a big deficit in his budget:
    .


    Medical Assistance. It is estimated that an additional $153.2 million GPR will be required to fund medical assistance (MA) benefit costs through June 30, 2011. The projected shortfall is primarily due to MA enrollment costs and service costs exceeding Act 28 estimates
    .

    Public Defender, Private Bar Shortfall. In December, 2010, the State Public Defender’s shortfall was estimated at $8.9 million. After supplementation by the Joint Committee on Finance at its December 14, 2010, meeting, the remaining shortfall is projected at $3.5 million in 2010-11.
    .

    Department of Corrections. The Department of Corrections (DOC) is projecting an overall GPR funding shortfall of $21.7 million in 2010-11. According to the Department, the shortfall is associated with insufficient funding to address: (a) the 2% raise provided for represented staff in 2009; (b) fringe benefit expenditures, which are higher than the anticipated supplement amount; (c) non-salary institutional costs, including health care services and inmate supplies; and (d) increased limited-term-employee costs related to providing mental health services.
    .

    Minnesota/Wisconsin Income Tax Reciprocity Payment. On September 18, 2009, Minnesota’s Governor informed Wisconsin’s Governor that Minnesota was terminating the two states’ income tax reciprocity agreement as of tax year 2010 (beginning January 1, 2010). Therefore, the agreement last applied to tax year 2009. Because more individuals live in
    Wisconsin and earn income in Minnesota than live in Minnesota and earn income in Wisconsin,
    Wisconsin’s estimated net payment to Minnesota due on December 1, 2010, for tax year 2009, was $58.7 million. In addition, under the agreement, interest is applied to late payments. The daily interest cost owed to Minnesota is $4,584. To date, these payments have not been made.
    .
    Patients Compensation Fund. On July 20, 2010, the State Supreme Court ruled that the state cannot transfer monies out of the Injured Patients and Families Compensation Fund (Fund). In the 2007-09 state budget, $200 million was transferred from the Fund to advantage the general fund. The Court remanded the case to the circuit court with directions that the $200 million, with lost earnings and interest, be placed in the Fund. To date, the circuit court has not established an amount or date of payment.

    .
    http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2011_01_31Vos&Darling.pdf
    .
    No mention what-so-ever of any “tax cuts” or anything else that comes close to a “tax cut” in the report. PERIOD.
    .
    Please update your post as this is factually NOT TRUE.

  • Paul-no not that one

    “MADISON, Wis. — The Wisconsin Assembly adjourned until Tuesday, further delaying action on a bill that would strip nearly all public employees of most collective bargaining rights.
    .
    The Assembly took the surprise action early Friday evening after Democrats loudly objected to Republicans attempting to pass it without a chance for amendments to be considered.
    .
    Thousands of protesters screamed just outside the doors of the Assembly chamber as lawmakers debated the bill.
    .
    Republican Speaker Jeff Fitzgerald said the delay is not a win for Democrats and opponents of the measure. He said he adjourned because he had concerns over lawmakers’ safety. He said the bill has the votes to pass and it will happen on Tuesday.”
    .
    http://www.wisn.com/politics/26913663/detail.html
    .
    6:01 PM CST

  • swissArmyBrainBETA

    pretty smart line for Boehner actually. there’s enough of a parallel for it to be effective. that situation in greece IS a great example of the problems public unions can cause, but wisconsin really wasn’t in that much of a bind, and revoking collective bargaining rights obviously doesn’t have anything to do w/ the budget shortfall. thanks for clearing up the numbers on the budget alex! i wish you had included the amounts for the tax cuts though

  • ohiolibb

    And the lack of revenue brought into the State due to the dismal economic condition the entire country is in thanks to Obama
    -
    ..You mean Obama has time-travel powers and went back to 2001 just to sabotage the economy??? Then again, now that Rustyblog is claiming things are factually not true, I suppose it’s time to go to Britney Spears for child-rearing advice.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    So Joe’s a courageous truth-teller when you agree with him and an idiot when you don’t

    Actually, finding myself agreeing with Joe always forces me to carefully examine my assumptions and make sure they could withstand scrutinty. When he’s wrong, it’s usually in spectacular fashion and when I think he’s right, I always have to check and make sure I’m not checking some important principle at the door.

  • newfreedomblog

    Yea yea libby, “blame it on Bush”. Obambi has had two full years to bring this economy back. Two LONG years, longer than any other previous recession has ever been.
    .
    It is HIS economy now.

  • artraveler

    If the doctors are accepting Medicaid, then they are in effect, a state employees.

  • 53_3

    Only by your standards, rusty.
    .
    By historical standards, which have much more authority than yours, no president has ever accomplished such a task.
    .
    Don’t consider the GOP and Bush as any way absolved:
    .
    Some messes are bigger than others, rusty and this one was the biggest mess in seventy years!

  • 53_3

    I think there is also the fact that in fact, the tail is trying to wag the dog right now, and for some darned reason, this dog* ain’t wagging…
    .
    * The American people

  • shepherdwong

    come on, trying to tie that into this post ridiculous.
    .
    Perhaps it would be more appropriate on Joe’s post since it is he, rather than Alex, who decided to participate in the jihad against public employees. Nevertheless, health care cost inflation is a much bigger factor bankrupting state government budgets than paying teachers a living wage. If you’re going to pick a group at random to take back money owed by the state, ostensibly for budgetary concerns, and pretending for a moment that it’s not just ideological prejudice and corporatist class war, Medicare and Medicaid doctors fees and the cost of medical malpractice is where the money is. And one of the reasons the rest of the industrialized pays half of what we pay is because the government sets the rates at which doctors are reimbursed.

  • apr2563

    You must not read progressive comments here. It is rare we agree with centerist Klein. If you think he is a progressive you have be deluded. From his original support of the Iraq war and the Patriot Act and his disdain for public service employees, you would be hard put to find him on the side of progressives on most issues.

  • Matt

    Stripping away collective bargaining rights that have existed for decades for public workers has nothing to do with saving money or budget deficits or surpluses. It’s a blatant and radical attack on public employees and labor organizations from conservative extremists. Drop that outrageous provisions and the protests stop. It’s not about more money, just trying to stop a radical right-wing agenda.
    http://www.sunstateactivist.org

  • shepherdwong

    Two LONG years, longer than any other previous recession has ever been.
    .
    He also had traitorous “conservatives,” who destroyed the economy in the first place, obstructing every effort by Democrats to fix it. Republicans and other corporatist “conservative” traitors caused the mess we’re in and have exploited it for their own political advancement ever since. That’s exactly what the Koch brothers’ toady, Gov. Walker, is doing right now.

  • shepherdwong

    I’m not the first dirty hippie to ask but have any of our intrepid political reporters bother to ask Gov. Walker and the Republican state reps if they’re cutting their own state health care and pension benefits to help deal with the terrible budget deficit. I’m mean, it’s a real crisis, isn’t it? And he’s an exemplary leader, isn’t he?
    .
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/social/Heavy/wisconsin-protests-scott-walker-police_n_824697_77768711.html

  • bobcn1

    A local ‘moderate’ talk show host (who idolizes John Bolton — the guy’s right-wing but pretends he’s not) repeatedly complained today about the ‘mobs’ in Wisconsin.
    .
    When much smaller teabagger demonstrations occurred in the past this guy announced that those were an exciting, vibrant, and important expression of democracy that we all had to respect and listen to. In those cases he never used the term ‘mob’.
    .
    Also, the demonstrations in Wisconsin have yet to make the front page of the local paper. When a group of about 200 teabaggers conducted a march last year in an adjacent town, the same paper covered it on page one, above the fold, with a photo that deceptively made the tiny group appear to be huge.

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    basketball shoes =
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  • http://erieangel.wordpress.com erieangel

    Excellent question shep. I have the sneaking feeling that if asked, the good governor will hem and haw and give a non-answer because of course, he’s “earned” all of his perks. It’s just like that tea part congressman who complained that he wouldn’t get government health care until he’d been in office an entire month!!

  • 53_3

    I think in the end, their denial that anything significant is happening will do them in in the end.

  • robbert5

    Rusty,

    usually I dont even bother replying to you since, well you are just boring, and I dont read your entire rants.

    But in this case I couldnt resist. You obviously have no clue what you are talking about when it comes to economics but then again what else is new.

    To get to my point, it typically takes 10 (TEN) years to recover from a financial crisis which we endured 2 (TWO) years ago so to expect that the current administration can clean up the mess that the neocons and teabaggers have crapped on us is simply ridiculous.

    You, sir, are an idiot! But then again we knew that already.

  • liberalmeltdown

    For years and years and years teachers and School districts have came to the well saying, “we need more money, more money, more money. We need more money.” More money will fix the schools. More money is what we need.
    .
    And year after year after year they hoodwinked the voters into giving them more money, because of course they demonized anyone that would dare question the sanctity and the purity of teachers values. Well, it turns out that the money went to salaries, benefits, pensions, administrators, perks, waste, meetings of educators, conferences, etc. NONE of these things has made our education system better. AND you can bet that they don’t have this kind of BS in Korea.
    .
    I know an administrator at a college. He makes about $85,000. He can barely get two weeks out of any given months work done in his office. WHY? Because he spends the rest of the time traveling around the state attending conferences in 4 and 5 star hotels on the taxpayers dime. Year after year. Meanwhile his staff plays computer solitaire for hours at a time instead of working.
    .
    If people don’t respect teachers any longer, it is because of teachers that can’t educate, that call in sick for protests, that encourage their own students to protest for them. And because, the graduation rate in places like Milwaukee and Los Angeles are pitiful: 46% and 40% respectively.

  • nflfoghorn

    I think this was AA smacking down JK without publicly ridiculing him. (that’s our job anyway ;) )

  • rahonavis2

    Well first lets address you example, the personal anecdote that shows that teachers are lazy and overpaid. First as you say the person you know is a school administrator, not a front line teacher. Second, you say he barely works, spending all his time at conferences. Well first off what part of administration is he in? Could it be that part of his duties is to go to these conferences and sell his school, recruit students and/or professors? Without that context your example is meaningless, its like me saying that I know a guy, he must only do actual “work” he was trained for about 50% of his time, the rest is just filing and paperwork. OH and that man is my uncle and his job is a district fire chief, so that 50% of the time he is actually doing what he is trained to do (you know at a fire scene, directing the crews, sometimes still going in, although less these days, or leading the on site investigations) more than makes up for the hours of paper work (sorting out the cause of a fire, dealing with politicians and unions) or being on call that make up a sizable amount of his hours. See context my friend, context.
    .
    .
    You complain about the administration’s pay, well how about college coaches. They average around 69 grand a year (ref http://www1.salary.com/Head-Coach-Major-Sport-Salary.html), although top level football coaches make millions. They spend much of their year away from campus, either on game day or recruiting, and are often put up in 4 or 5 star hotels during this time. One can easily make the case that a coach and a sports team are much less necessary for a college than an administrator, so shouldn’t you be calling for all sports to be shut down to save the universities (and thus the public since state schools get money from the tax payers) money? (oh to be clear, I love college sports, think they are a valuable thing, but they are extra circular and would rather see them go than teachers).
    .
    .
    You say he makes $85,000 a year, you do know that is about 30 grand more than the average front line teacher. How long has he held this job? What level is he? ( you say he has staff under him, so probably pretty high) How much education or training does he have? Now take that and compare him to say a private sector professional with similar levels of experience, education and responsibility and see how their pay lines up. I would bet you that the private sector administrator makes more.
    .
    .
    You say teachers are the problem for low graduation rates, because of course lack of parental involvement, the environment (like say a school with a high proportion of poor students with a large drug culture), lack of funds (many teachers have to buy much of their supplies out of pocket because the schools don’t have the resources) have no influence at all on the situation. I thought you conservatives were all about personal responsibility? How is this the teachers fault the students don’t work hard enough to graduate? Shouldn’t the students be held accountable? I know, lets have students do all these standardized test and when the students don’t reach the mark, instead of looking at why they failed we’ll just assume the people who taught the class are at fault (although apparently the other 60% of the students in the same environment learned enough to pass, we’ll ignore that and assume all of them picked that up independently on their own, you know from Fox news).
    .
    .
    On to the comment about Korea. Well lets see, first off they pay their teachers better.
    http://www.therationalradical.com/documents/teacherssalaries.htm (ok thats an old report , from 2001)
    .
    heres a newer one
    http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/opinon/2011/02/162_61875.html
    .
    As is here
    http://www.asianoffbeat.com/default.asp?Display=966
    .
    .
    Now of course there are different requirements in different countries, different amount of hours worked or years to move up the pay scale etc. But the fact remains that Korea does seem to value its teachers and gives them their due both socially and financially.
    .
    .
    Have you ever spent any time in a classroom LMD? Do you have any idea of the amount of time (not including the years in college and training to get a teachers certificate) that is involved? As someone who has been around teachers all his life, I can tell you that the vast, vast majority start their day well before the first bell, work well into the night and on weekends. They actually care about their students well being, much more than any politician, Democrat or Republican, who only sees students as a nice back drop for a press conference. Teachers deserve their pay as much as you deserve yours. The fact that this “crisis” that is affecting Wisconsin, seems to be so desperate you need to tear up 50+ years of collective bargaining agreements, but not so bad that 100+ million in tax cuts and pet projects had to be shelved makes me think that this is more about breaking the unions than actually saving money.
    .
    .
    I often wonder why conservatives, those who recently have been so worried about the government taking away their rights (like say to collective bargaining), their money (like say pensions, benefits and salary already agreed upon in contracts which will be nullified without both parties consent) and saying that they represent the common folks have been so silent on this. Tens of thousands of people are protesting in Wisconsin, more will join them in other states. Peoples rights are being infringed, and their money taken way by the government. True family values are under threat from an government body that is telling people that it knows better than they do how to spend their money. Isn’t this what all that “non-party affiliated” Tea Party that so fueled the media’s imagination the past year was supposed to be against? Is this not the definition of government over reach?
    .
    .
    In times like these, some words come to me from a great thinker of our time.
    “Won’t someone please think of the children???”

  • Cliff

    And also a prostitute!
    .
    It’s very important that we don’t forget that aspect of Boehner:
    The prostitution.

  • Cliff

    I do my best to dislike Klein’s work even when he is less than completely wrong.
    .
    Human perception being subjective, though, ensures that I am no accurate judge of whether I am successful.

  • farstomp

    LOL. The people that are demonstrating are the people that didn’t vote for Walker. AKA the minority,

    Further more Barrett favors hitting all public employees including police and firefighters.

    So yeah, Scott Walker is more civil-employee favorable than Barrett, his Democratic competitor.

    Ouch.

  • farstomp

    Thank you Square1 for passing your left-wing propaganda down the pipeline.

    Please keep the ad-hominems rolling.

  • farstomp

    I agree completely with you Alex Altman (Who?), Firefighters and Police should get cuts as well.

  • apr2563

    Reread Steinbeck or watch the movie “Grapes of Wrath”. It is a part of our history that could reapeat itself.
    .
    http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20020331/REVIEWS08/203310301/1023
    .
    Roger Ebert:

    The novel and movie do last, I think, because they are founded in real experience and feeling. My parents were scarred by the Depression, it was a remembered devastation I sensed in their very tones of voice, and “The Grapes of Wrath” shows half a nation with the economic rug pulled out from under it. The story, which seems to be about the resiliency and courage of “the people,” is built on a foundation of fear: Fear of losing jobs, land, self-respect. To those who had felt that fear, who had gone hungry or been homeless, it would never become dated. And its sense of injustice, I believe, is still relevant. The banks and land agents of the 1930s have been replaced by financial pyramids so huge and so chummy with the government that Enron, for example, had to tractor itself off its own land.

    .

  • liberalmeltdown

    Context doesn’t matter. Only in your imagination. What matters is the fact that the administrator accomplishes nothing by going from conference to conference that he couldn’t do in his office. Well he always has good stories about the parties and the food. And, I wasn’t complaining about his salary. He has to work twice as hard because, he spends so much time partying on the taxpayer’s dime.
    .
    Here’s a calendar of California educator’s conferences. There are 6 in March alone. There is one in Florida for California educators.
    .
    He’s not an educator. He is a financial aide administrator, so he has a different calendar of conferences. That’s the problem every part of administration has their own set of parties, I mean conferences. And, his staff take their cues from the boss. Well, actually they didn’t work hard before he took over.
    .
    I really enjoyed the effort you took to try and justify the failure of teachers that cannot educate.

    .
    “I thought you conservatives were all about personal responsibility? How is this the teachers fault the students don’t work hard enough to graduate? Shouldn’t the students be held accountable? I know, lets have students do all these standardized test and when the students don’t reach the mark, instead of looking at why they failed we’ll just assume the people who taught the class are at fault”

    .
    Children are minors. When you send them to school they are the responsibility of the school and teacher. It is the duty of the school and the teacher to educate them. That’s what we pay for. That’s why they are warming a seat for 12 years. I seriously doubt that there is more drug use in Milwaukee than San Diego. Yet San Diego has a much higher graduation rate. If you want to get to the reasons, you have to step all over political correctness, and teachers and liberal administrators won’t ever let that happen.
    .
    And all it take to learn is a pencil and some paper and a book, discipline and a instructor that knows how to make a subject interesting.

  • ricardo4max

    More lies from the radical left posing as Democrats.
    The last time federal taxes were cut was the first Bush term and they DID grow the economy. Unfortunately, the effect of Democrats bullying lenders into making bad loans to their perceived voter base (CRA, ACORN, Fannie, Freddie, etc..) and the constant attacks on energy producers, businesses and capitalism by the Obama regime have undone all those benefits of reduced taxation.
    Blaming businesses and corporations ( the tired mantra of the left) for not hiring people in like blaming a captain of a sinking ship for not taking on more passengers. Given the intense antipathy towards and regulatory attacks on capitalism and business by Democrats over the last four years, a prudent business man or investor will not invest in ANYTHING until Obama and his thug Democrat accomplices are out of the picture. Can you blame them? Stealing money from those that have it is like eating all the bread from the pantry without farmers and mills producing more. The trouble with socialism (Modern day Democrats) is that eventually you run out of other people’s money.

  • ricardo4max

    As for you “progressives”, a quick look at the Democrat Party agenda compared to that of the Communist Party USA and one easily recognizes that they are identical!
    No more hiding under rocks, progressives. You are indeed neocommies and enemies of this country.

  • 53_3

    ricardo:
    .
    Why.

    Don’t.

    You.

    Just.

    Shut.

    Up!

  • 53_3

    Whatever your self-serving beliefs are, liberal, you kicked the dog.
    .
    And unlike the Teabaggers, this dog, judging by the size of the demonstrations, isn’t just a feral mongrel some crackpots like Beck frenzied up.
    .
    And, just so you know, this dog will bite.
    .
    In 2012.
    .
    Sayonara…

  • 53_3

    Yup. Your compatriots are taking you at your word.
    .
    Not only that, your moniker is aptly descriptive of what the Teabaggers are doing to the firemen and the police everywhere.
    .
    Let’s hope that your fellow constituents within those groups are SMers because that’s the only group of people I can think of that like pain and will come back for more…

  • 53_3

    Um, 6.6…

  • 53_3

    On a more humorous note:
    .
    A Toy for the Terrorist Teabagger in Your Life:
    .
    http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-557272

  • Paul-no not that one

    No worries fitty.
    .
    Always keep in mind when ricardo says “this country” he isn’t talking about the United States.

  • Paul-no not that one

    This is not the first time Walker has used the budget as an excuse to take a shot at the Union. When he was the Milwaukee county exec in 2009 he tried to privatize security at the courthouse. The County Board rejected the proposal so in 2010 he declared a budget emergency and privatized them anyway. In the investigation that followed it was found that
    .
    1. there was no budget emergency
    .
    2. Walker broke the union contract by not allowing any time for the union to make a counter offer.
    .
    3. Walker said it would save the county $125k when in fact he overstated the savings by $53k. In arbitration the county was told they had to pay the laid off security guards all the back pay for the duration they were laid off and had to guarantee them employment for 180 days which is the time they should have had to respond to Walker’s proposal.
    .
    The full details can be found in this article:
    .

    http://www.allbusiness.com/government/government-bodies-offices-regional-local/15435944-1.html
    .
    The above is from the comment section at Washington Monthly.
    .
    http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2011_02/028071.php
    .
    There is a value to slowing down the process. The more this is exposed for what it is the less likely it is to pass.
    .
    Although I still think it is highly likely to go through.

  • Alex Vallas

    There you go again Boehner. “Those who speak without knowledge through their mouth speak through their butts.” That is a translation from a Greek expression. I visit Greece frequently and I have NEVER been to Athens when there was not a strike of some sort. The Greeks like to strike as they feel it is proof of their democracy. Many of their causes for a strike would seem ridiculous in the US.
    On a more serious note, it is scary that so many GOP leaders are so clueless in virtually every aspect or situation.

  • Ivy_B

    Asking public workers to contribute more of their pay to foot the bill for escalating health care costs is not unreasonable, given the strains on underfunded state pension accounts.

    In PA (and NJ) one big reason they are underfunded is because the required contributions were not made by the states over the years and the money used for other things. Similar to Social Security, although in the case of SS the money was borrowed with bonds and in PA the money was just used and they counted on a rising stock market to make up the difference. When the stock market went down, so did the return on investments. In PA in 2001, Gov. Ridge made a substantial change in benefits by cutting the vesting time in half and adding other benefits. Leaving workers holding the bag now.

    Harrisburg and union leaders have been forced to confront the fact that taxpayers cannot afford the jump in pension costs mandated by the legislature and Gov. Tom Ridge in 2001. A second change adopted in 2003 reduced taxpayer subsidies to the two major pension plans in the hopes that growth in the stock market would make up the difference. Instead, the stock market took a historic dive in 2008, increasing the gap between what the state had contributed and what it’s obligated to pay. The State Employees Retirement System had 110,000 active members and 110,000 beneficiaries at the end of last year; the public school employees system had 280,000 active members and 178,000 retirees as of a year ago.

    http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/inq_ed_board/Change_pension_system_before_it_fails.html

    The Pennsylvania State Employees’ Retirement System (SERS) spends a quarter of a billion dollars a year on private money managers, in hopes they’ll make more money to pay future pensions.
    Under Nicholas Maiale, a former state representative from South Philadelphia who has been chairman of SERS’ board since 1992, and especially since then-Gov. Tom Ridge boosted pensions in 2001 without raising more funds to pay for them, SERS has become one of the most intensively managed public pension systems in the nation.

    SERS planted nearly half its assets in hedge, real estate, buyout, venture capital, and other funds you can’t buy in the stock or bond markets.

    And what did these fees buy? An average 4 percent annual investment return over the last 10 years, according to last year’s annual report to state legislators.

    SERS would have spent a lot less, and made more, by giving the money to, say, Vanguard Group’s Wellington stock-and-bond fund.

    http://www.philly.com/philly/columnists/joseph-distefano/20110206_PhillyDeals__Pa__pension_plan_s_woes_are_costing_taxpayers.html

  • 53_3

    It’s my stock response when the commenter resorts to hackneyed propaganda-speak.
    .
    Sort of an anti-rant but shorter and to the point…

  • newfreedomblog

    Hey thanks robbert5, thanks for responding. Since you were only slightly irritating, something akin to a gnat, I’ll respond. Consider yourself very lucky by the way, I usually ignore little toads like you and IQ53, but here goes.
    .
    1. “Economics” – I wasn’t talking about economics at all in my original comment, my 2nd comment addressed ohiolibtard that spending and proposed spending by the Wisconsin government has nothing to do with Bush and Co. This has been the disparate ploy by libtards to turn it from Obama’s failures to Bush, yet again. Fail for you #1
    .
    2. “Typically 10 YEARS” – You are full of crap. There have been many many recessions which have returned to a robust economy typically in 22 or less months. Unemployment, which I’ll remind everyone here is still at 10% has never lasted this long in our country’s history. Perhaps that is where you are so totally confused and out of touch. Period. Dispute that fact A$$wipe.
    .
    Go put your tinfoil hat back on robbert5. Your brain needs a rest now.

  • newfreedomblog

    Gee, glad you brought this up for Pennsylvania, IvyB. Thanks.
    .
    Oh, and how much do our Government Workers and Teachers pay into their pension funds and benefit packages? Got any clue?
    .
    Hope you are not one of them, we ARE coming after them next!!
    .
    Enjoy!!

  • 53_3

    “Unemployment, which I’ll remind everyone here is still at 10% has never lasted this long in our country’s history.”
    .
    rusty:
    .
    What country’s history are you talking about?
    .
    The United States?
    .
    It can’t possibly be. Take a look:
    http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0104719.html
    .
    Either one of two things, rusty:
    .
    1. You were too much in a hurry and never checked
    .
    or
    .
    2. You are dumber than a warm rock on a windowsill

  • 53_3

    “Unemployment, which I’ll remind everyone here is still at 10% has never lasted this long in our country’s history. Perhaps that is where you are so totally confused and out of touch. Period. Dispute that fact A$$wipe.”
    .
    Reality sucks rusty.
    .
    See 25…

  • lreed580

    Think Progress has posted information on a poll done by Building a Stronger Wisconsin. Of those polled, 75% had NO public employees residing in that household. 65% think Walker has gone too far. 65% oppose removing collective bargaining.

  • freeinpa

    “”it’s clear that many people consider them lazy, overpaid parasites instead”
    .
    No it’s over 40 years of spending more than nearly every other country but one or two and having achievement ranking in the 20 has made the natural conclusion these folks are lazy, overpaid parasites with no accountability

  • freeinpa

    “Blaming public sector workers for what’s wrong with our eceomy”
    .
    No blaming them for their ongoing greed in the face of budget deficits and folks struggling to meet their own bills while theis group of whining largely unproductive folks demand more more more! At the heart of it is spending spending spending and that is what is wrong with the economy..

  • freeinpa

    “At least teachers aren’t killing anyone”
    .
    When did the path to graduating as a doctor become independent study?

  • freeinpa

    “Have the Teabaggers noted the size of these demonstrations yet?”
    .
    With the help of the DNC and other Obama led campaign operatives helping to hold the student’s hostage. Not to mention wasting more taxpayer money – oh yes its confiscated union dues which is taxpayer money paid to union members.

  • freeinpa

    “SERS planted nearly half its assets in hedge, real estate, buyout, venture capital, and other funds you can’t buy in the stock or bond markets.>
    .
    First putting the money solely into the Wellington Fund would in all probability closed the fund long before all of the money could get invested. It would also violate every fiduciary rule for diversification.

    .
    Real estate, VC and buyout funds that typically do not pay out returns until 12-15 years after those LP funds close. ANd before you go into your typically knee jerk liberal reaction check out the Carpenters union or Meatpackers union in Philly and see how much of the same type of investments they have. Or check with some of the national union plans that have used union pension funds to buy hotels and golf courses in FL to be used by union officials during winter boondoggles.

    .
    BTW check out the PA college saving fund that is invested in things like Vanguard. There is a very distinct probability it will be unable to meet payouts for future college students.

  • freeinpa

    “You are dumber than a warm rock on a windowsil”
    .
    You are dumber than a warm rock on a windowsill if you believed a $1 trillion stimulus would stop unemployment at 8%.

  • allthingsinaname

    No free there are some people who refuse to learn, quite a few really; take you for example. It is hard to blame the messenger on this issue.

  • freeinpa

    “75% had NO public employees residing in that household.”
    .
    Makes no mention of whether member of household was a former member or was a member of another union.

    .
    Think Progress in addition to being an oxymoron is never known for unbiased anything.

  • virginiagentleman

    I’d like to ask a larger question and it’s directed more to our righty friends here than those commenters on the left.
    .
    Let’s assume for a moment you’re right. Government workers, especially the unionized ones, are getting outsized compensation based on their jobs. In these tough economic times, that compensation needs to be downsized. They need to take less to help balance the budget. They can no longer be the “special class,” as Newt Gingrich calls them.
    .
    So, if you’re so focused on cutting these “special classes” down to size and making sure they carry more of the burden in these tough economic times, why don’t we do the same thing to the wealthiest people in the country? Aren’t they kind of a “special class?”

  • 53_3

    You lost this debate before you even started, freeinpa.
    .
    You are the only one who believes that the so-called “8%” issue is important.

  • 53_3

    The teabaggers have bitten off more than they can chew.
    .
    Look for their time in governance to be very brief…

  • ohiolibb

    1. “Economics” – I wasn’t talking about economics at all in my original comment, my 2nd comment addressed ohiolibtard that spending and proposed spending by the Wisconsin government has nothing to do with Bush and Co
    -
    you’re right, if only by accident. It doesn’t. However, my comment had nothing to do with the Wisconin situation. It had everything to do with the fact that the economy tanked in 2001, yet you blame Obama for this. So, unless Obama has time-travel powers, you’re making sh!t up. Or very paranoid.

  • 53_3

    freeinpa:
    .
    That is one of the all time stoopidest responses I have ever heard.
    .
    Did you look at any of the links? They are Wisconsin polls, by Wisconsin people – and not partisan.
    .
    If you want more, Google ‘Wisconsin budget bill polls’.

  • freeinpa

    You were wrong in November and still wrong. But it is a position you know well- being wrong that is

  • freeinpa

    “So, if you’re so focused on cutting these “special classes” down to size and making sure they carry more of the burden in these tough economic times, why don’t we do the same thing to the wealthiest people in the country”
    .
    One, the wealthy as you enviously put it have their money and wealth subject to the risk of the markets daily. It is the money earned through the production of goods and services people voluntarily buy (or not).
    .
    The unions are nothing but a transfer of confiscated wealth from taxpayers to a select group where no standards of performance or accountability hold. WI is the perfect example. The union workers fraudulently called off sick for 3 days to whine about more money and benefits. In affect the taxpayers are paying for these folks that are trying to hold the taxpayer hostage

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    It is the money earned through the production of goods and services people voluntarily buy (or not).

    Yes, things like payday loans and unnecessary jet engines and hedge funds and (ahem) inheritances.

    The Capital class does nothing that is not productive but workers are just parasites. Nice story. Shall I tell the one about Cinderella next?

  • freeinpa

    I would venture those people who became unemployed from the 8% to 10% ride think its important. And why “so-called”? This was a study and document put out by the WH Economic Council. Or is this the typical dismissal of facts when the left is wrong (again) on economics.

    .
    “You lost this debate before you even started”

    .
    Always since you only use liberal s facts and declare victory. A repeated and predictable pattern for you.

  • freeinpa

    “Yes, things like payday loans and unnecessary jet engines and hedge funds and (ahem) inheritances.”
    .
    Well Paul I see every argument you have over this issue is just whining like a little girl.
    .
    Since none of what you name is illegal what is your real beef. Well you hate Wall St. Standard liberal whine. Unnecessary jet engines? Call your congressman! Payday loans? I haven’t heard of any one being held at gun point to take one. the rates may be high but so is a 35% tax rate which are inverse payday loans in which the government takes money at that rate rather than lending it. But you never have problems when rates are high for wealth confiscation

  • virginiagentleman

    freep, your answer was the predictable nonsense I expected, and dirks in 28 started to pick it apart.
    .
    But you really didn’t answer my question: if other classes, especially the “special class” of unionized government workers have to take less and contribute more to help fix the problems in government budgets, why are the wealthy not being asked to do the same, take less and contribute more? Why are they excluded?

  • freeinpa

    And people have no right to inherit wealth it should be given to the government. Never mind the risk taken and sacrifices made by families in earning that money. It’s not fair is it (Cue: Stamp your feet now)

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Since none of what you name is illegal what is your real beef
    .
    Precisely my point. The assumption that because someone has accumulated a lot of money, that they are therefore productive simply doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. Nor does the assupmtion that teachers and other Public Union members are not relatively productive. You can collect anecdotes to support either viewpoint and you can use the language of demonization at will (notice that I have never refered to anyone as ‘greedy’ or a ‘parasite”) but what we say here only reflects where we percieve either our self-interest or sense of fairness to lead.

  • freeinpa

    “It’s my stock response when the commenter resorts to hackneyed propaganda-speak”
    .
    Then it should appear after everything you post

  • freeinpa

    First the assumption is a special class is just wrong. How does one who pays 70% of all income taxes come to be classified as a “special class”? Unless of course you consider that 100% of their income is taken in taxes?
    .
    And no Paul picked nothing apart, he just whined about legal businesses he doesn’t like. People who employ people and put their capital at risk he hates, but union members who demand more money and benefits as states roll toward record deficits are fine upstanding folks

  • 53_3

    Actually, no, freeinpa.
    .
    That’s just a talking point you like to push.
    .
    Virtually all polls defy you. Obama’s numbers are up and the numbers run against the Wisconsin bill.
    .
    I’ll take this victory dance because like the others you’ve whined about, the facts are on my side.
    .
    You can look for yourself, but just like always, the only things you find to support you are “tinyurls” and “pajamawhatevers” links.
    .
    When you get some real facts, then we can talk.
    .
    Now go away…

  • 53_3

    Just to kick your butt out the door, are you going to actually claim that rusty is right?
    .
    After all, there is the internet.
    .
    And here is the door…

  • freeinpa

    “Public Union members are not relatively productive.”
    .
    Why relatively Paul? Because even you gag on trying to claim that waste and bloat isn’t rampant in the public system.
    .
    “You can collect anecdotes to support either viewpoint”
    .
    40 years of rising costs to where we spend more than any other country with the possible exception of one or two matched with declining results to where we now reside in the mid20s for proficiency in math and science after being top 5. Hardly anecdotal but more like just lying to yourself.
    .
    “that I have never refered to anyone as ‘greedy”
    .
    Actually I question the veracity of this statement. A quick search show here in November and in the Washington Monthly you refer to “greedy wealthy” which by liberal standards is anyone with an income.
    .
    And “fairness” is an amorphous concept the left drags out when they are trying to blow smoke up somebody’s shorts to extort more money from them.

  • 53_3

    …except that unlike you, I can back my contentions up with links.
    .
    And what do you have, freeinpa?
    .
    tinyurl?

  • virginiagentleman

    “People who employ people and put their capital at risk he hates, but union members who demand more money and benefits as states roll toward record deficits are fine upstanding folks.”
    .
    Actually, the government workers unions in Wisconsin have made it clear they’re willing to accept cuts in benefits, they just don’t want to give up their right to collective bargaining.
    .
    As for calling the wealthy a “special class,” when the top 20 percent of the country controls nearly fifty percent of the wealth, that makes them a special class, in my opinion.
    .
    But again, you’re ignoring my question: if we believe sacrifices need to be made and more needs to be asked of people to fix the government’s budget crises, why aren’t we asking the wealthy to participate?

  • robbert5

    Rusty,

    it looks like you don’t have the IQ capability to read. I stated financial crisis not recession. There is a distinction. Let me know if you can grasp that. If not I will try to explain it to you at kindergarten level since that seems to be your maturity level.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    You mean when I said this:
    As a Democrat who nevertheless feels that balanced budgets are important and that Corporations are merely amoral, not evil I too lament the loss of sane Republicans. It would indeed improve our government if there were a few willing and able to participate in the legislative process. As it is, it appears that we are playing hopscotch adjacent to a rather menacing precipice.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Or:
    You wouldn’t know it but among my other accomplishments, I once in my role as manager help prevent the unionization of the plant where I was employed. But Union membership and influence (like taxes) are at an all time low relative to the 40 years I’ve been paying attention. Your still fighting a battle you’ve already won

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Or:

    And therein lies the real problem. Actually the deficit IS a problem whether people think so or not. It needs to be addressed and history shows that it CAN be addressed. But with the Republicans wallowing in dishonesty over what motivates them and the Democrats just trying to nibble away at unemployment without actually suggesting anything effective, we have just achieved the worst of both worlds.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    You really need to sharpen those Google skill……

  • freeinpa

    Rusty can defend himself. Nice change of direction. I am just pointing out your stupidity in how “unimportant” the 8% unemployment number is.
    .
    “Virtually all polls defy you”
    .
    Really – jobs is not the number 1 fear of Americans? You need to stop reading left wing nut polls.
    .
    Your dance is premature but rumor has it you are always premature in your acts.

  • freeinpa

    “As for calling the wealthy a “special class,” when the top 20 percent of the country controls nearly fifty percent of the wealth, that makes them a special class, in my opinion.”
    .
    The key here is “in your opinion”.
    .
    “if we believe sacrifices need to be made and more needs to be asked of people to fix the government’s budget crises, why aren’t we asking the wealthy to participate?”
    .
    They are. The top 10% pays 70% of the income tax (federal) add in state, and other local and that is considerably higher. Of course the knee jerk liberal response is to raise their taxes. They always assume there will be no adverse consequences of this “simple” solution. Check out result of the “luxury tax” — it collected fractions of what was projected while shutting many ship building companies and laying off workers.

  • virginiagentleman

    “if we believe sacrifices need to be made and more needs to be asked of people to fix the government’s budget crises, why aren’t we asking the wealthy to participate?”
    .
    They are. The top 10% pays 70% of the income tax (federal) add in state, and other local and that is considerably higher.
    .
    Again, that’s not what I’m asking. The top 10 percent have been paying whatever taxes they pay for years now (although I have my doubts about your figures) and that hasn’t prevented the current budget crises. Therefore, Congress, the President and state and local governments are looking for additional steps to end the crisis.
    .
    Your conclusion? The poor who rely heavily on government services, unionized government workers and the middle class in general will have to make further sacrifices. The wealthy don’t have to do anything else.
    .
    Thanks for clarifying that.

  • freeinpa

    “the Democrats just trying to nibble away at unemployment without actually suggesting anything effective”
    .
    Some would call that wallowing in dishonesty too.

    “Your still fighting a battle you’ve already won”
    .
    To believe this one needs to assume one has been a coma for the past 2 years
    .
    “It would indeed improve our government if there were a few willing and able to participate in the legislative process.”
    .
    And you have this one-sided belief that its all Republican unwilling to do things. We have $1 trillion deficit and a budget that is an enormous percetn of GDP and have these “sane” Democrats whine that $60 billion in cuts is draconian while a President still ignores the entitlements.
    .
    Seems the real issue is that you lie to yourself about the actaiul problems and solutions- but then that’s what defines a liberal.
    .
    BTW I was a union member (compelled membership), So much for freedom of choice

  • freeinpa

    “The poor who rely heavily on government services, unionized government workers and the middle class in general will have to make further sacrifices.”
    .
    57% of the budget spending is entitlements. The problem contrary to the liberal meme, is spending not revenues. You can take 100% of the “wealthy” income and you will not solve the deficit and debt problem.
    .
    It is foolish an delusional to believe otherwise.

  • virginiagentleman

    I was actually finished with my comments because, well, there’s no point debating you anymore, but I couldn’t resist one more go-round:
    .
    “The problem contrary to the liberal meme, is spending not revenues. You can take 100% of the “wealthy” income and you will not solve the deficit and debt problem.
    .
    It is foolish an delusional to believe otherwise.”
    .
    Well, actually I think taking 100% of the wealthy income would probably solve the deficit and debt problem, but, of course, I’m not suggesting that. It’s “foolish” and “delusional” to pretend I did. (It’s also a lie)
    .
    Just as it’s foolish and delusional to believe that all you need to do is cut entitlement spending and you’ll balance the budget. Just as it’s foolish and delusional to believe any sensible business manager would look at his books, see a sizable deficit and think, “All we have to do is cut spending and we’ll be fine.”
    .
    Okay, I really gotta go. Feel free to resume your name-caling, sloganeering and non sequiturs.

  • http://rg7890.wordpress.com rg7890

    I live in Madison, so I KNOW the teachers in this area are the best. My kids have gotten a thorough education, and if the teachers need to spend extra time with the kids, they show NO hesitation at all to spend it. I’ve been amazed at how much they care for their students.

    Perhaps some public employees are lazy, but that does NOT include Madison area teachers.

    Taking away their right to bargain is simply political hardball by Walker.

  • freeinpa

    “Well, actually I think taking 100% of the wealthy income would probably solve the deficit and debt problem, but, of course, I’m not suggesting that”
    .
    Ok you win it foolish an delusional to think it probably would solve it.
    .Just as it’s foolish and delusional to believe that all you need to do is cut entitlement spending and you’ll balance the budget”
    .
    Agreed, there are other cuts to be made.

    .
    Continue to put your head in the sand but eventually you will have to face reality and wishes

  • hippooath

    Freeinpa@27.5
    ,
    “”if we believe sacrifices need to be made and more needs to be asked of people to fix the government’s budget crises, why aren’t we asking the wealthy to participate?”
    .
    They are. The top 10% pays 70% of the income tax (federal) add in state, and other local and that is considerably higher. Of course the knee jerk liberal response is to raise their taxes. They always assume there will be no adverse consequences of this “simple” solution. Check out result of the “luxury tax” — it collected fractions of what was projected while shutting many ship building companies and laying off workers.”
    .
    This is interesting since you are claiming through many posts that it’s time for the welloff union workers to pay their part in this economy. So here we have a class of citizens that have had their tax reduced for over a decade, without producing a significant amount of jobs. You want the unions to help pay for the economic woes in the states, but you want to exclude the very rich because they’re already paying taxes. Reduced mind you.
    .
    So what is it? Should unions help out to pay for the economic problems? Why should they? Is this a responsibility that should be across the board or not?
    .
    How is it that all the cuts are in programs that affect people who are old, uninsured, single mothers and poor? But there are absolutely no cuts to the benefits to corporations, large companies, defense contractors or rich?
    .
    Because they pay more taxes already? Their taxes have been steadily reduced while the cost for the middle class have steadily increased. Rich people use more of our infrastructure and gain more benefits from it than you average joe.
    .
    Yet your contention that this ‘poor’ group of people shouldn’t be touched but everything from WIC, planned parenthood, unions and the list goes one should all chip in.
    .
    Rich are not starting in this country. They have more wealth than they could ever spend in a lifetime and they keep accumulate more and more. Meanwhile the middle class is shrinking and getting destroyed. Face it – your’re not asking what’s good for all of America, nor are you making a case for everyone doing whats good for America in this economic downturn. You’re asking for anyone in the middle class to take the burdon and leave people with a lot of money alone. Because it’s unfair that they have to lose their tax cut.
    .
    You would have a case if the rich class in this country also supported it by making sure their companies paid taxes here or if they kept jobs here. But they don’t. The capital gains tax haven’t lead to increased investment in real manufacturing and goods, most of it has been burnt and lost in pyramide schemes including betting against companies or on debt.
    .
    The tax cuts have not lead to a flood of jobs. In fact the tax cuts have lead to companies outsourcing to other countries.
    .
    So when are we going to see the investment we put into the very rich by letting them keep more and more of their money?
    .
    I’m guessing since you don’t argue for their austerity that you really don’t have anything to say about unions. What’s good for the rich, should be equally good for everyone else.

  • liberalmeltdown

    27.6,
    “Your conclusion? The poor who rely heavily on government services, unionized government workers and the middle class in general will have to make further sacrifices. The wealthy don’t have to do anything else.”
    .
    The poor rely on union government workers?.
    .
    Seriously, union government workers have gotten kickbacks from politicians. The unions give millions to election campaigns and the politicians pay them back. Why do you think that Obama injected himself in the WI situation? Because, he want the 400 million in donations from the Public Employee Unions.
    .
    And the middle class you are so concerned about are the ones getting rolled by the Democrats over and over again in their shakedown for more taxes to pay the unions off.
    .
    Many poor become addicted to the welfare state and generation after generation is lost to being unproductive. Look at welfare to work. It is a great example of how to lift people out of poverty. The poverty level went down in the US because of welfare to work, proving that welfare should not be a permanent situation. But, California’s liberals refuse to implement welfare to work. That’s why CA has 38% of the nations welfare recipients.
    .
    The rich, are mainly small business owners. Everytime the liberals in California go to war against the rich; they pack up and leave the state. They cannot afford to hire and operate in CA so they leave. Since you have never has to operate a business, you have no idea how fast you can loose everything. Have you noticed any businesses going out of business in your area in the last 3 years? Those are your “rich”. Or, were. Now many are bankrupt. They put there own money on the line. It’s a big gamble. Many loose. We are trying to recover this economy. You don’t raise taxes and take money out of the system, because that money could be used to hire an employee or start a business. You want to confiscate that money and give it to an government worker whose inflated salary and pension is due to political kickbacks.
    .
    Everyone that is in business sees this situation. So, what happens? They don’t hire, because your past performance will be repeated again and again. Higher taxes; how high? Who knows. Liberals love higher taxes. We won’t have a recovery until the liberal threat is removed.

  • 53_3

    The polls I posted were from Wisconsin newspapers and others.
    .
    Also, I specifically stated that you can Google for yourself, and look at whatever poll you want except FOX and you’ll find what I stated to be true.
    .
    No prematurity on my part.
    .
    But, lets see whatcha got, freeinpa!
    .
    Show me…

  • hippooath

    Again,
    .
    So Austerity for everyone else. They have to tighten their belts, but none for anyone above a certain income.
    .
    And rich are not mainly small business owners. You’re so full of sh!t.

  • freeinpa

    “So here we have a class of citizens that have had their tax reduced for over a decade, without producing a significant amount of jobs”
    .
    Simple concept hippo. The wealthy top 10 pay 70% o fthe income tax. Many view hat as excessive while you may view that as not enough. Sort of crushes your concept of “fair”.
    .
    Unions are collecting tax payer money. Check the number of jobs the public sector has grown. Who has paid for those.. Come on say it with me — the top 10% earners. Any money taken from the unions to balance the budgets is just a refund of taxpayer money. And in reality any taxes “paid” by unions members is just a refund of taxpayer money.

  • freeinpa

    Reality time Hippo, the public sectors were able to deliver votes to politicians in exchange for outrageous salary and benefits paid for in vast majority by the top 10% earners. The bill is now due. So in fairness it would seem that those who receive those lavish benefits now carry some of the load that has been shouldered for years by others.

  • hippooath

    “Reality time Hippo, the public sectors were able to deliver votes to politicians in exchange for outrageous salary and benefits paid for in vast majority by the top 10% earners. The bill is now due. So in fairness it would seem that those who receive those lavish benefits now carry some of the load that has been shouldered for years by others.”
    .
    Rich people and companies deliver resources to politicians anf get them elected and benefit by lower taxes and other bills and policies geared towards their businesses. So in all fairness, when are their bill coming due?
    .
    What about their lavish benefit? You’re talking about shouldered for years by others? You’re talking about a lot of groups, companies and induviduals across the board.
    .
    Lets be honest here.
    .
    Austerity for everyone except the few elite.

  • http://nakedempire.wordpress.com nakedempire

    nascar and the US Military. see your tax dollars at work.

    http://nakedempire.wordpress.com/

  • hippooath

    “Simple concept hippo. The wealthy top 10 pay 70% o fthe income tax. Many view hat as excessive while you may view that as not enough. Sort of crushes your concept of “fair”.
    .
    Unions are collecting tax payer money. Check the number of jobs the public sector has grown. Who has paid for those.. Come on say it with me — the top 10% earners. Any money taken from the unions to balance the budgets is just a refund of taxpayer money. And in reality any taxes “paid” by unions members is just a refund of taxpayer money.”
    .
    In other words; austerity for anyone except rich people. Thanks for ignoring the entire message to hammer in one single point; they already pay enough. Lets get real. They pay what, 34% or something? That means according to you that the top 10 percent of rich people in this country owns so much wealth that their 34% tax provides 70% of all income tax?
    .
    Now if you were saying that they paid 70% tax and a majority of all income tax I think they would be unfairly taxed. But your mathetical formula simply miss the most horrible number you provide – by paying only 34% the have amassed so much wealth that even with that low tax they pay 70% of federal income tax.
    .
    That’s insane. Where are all those jobs they promised when they got their tax break?
    ,
    I don’t give a sh!t about what you think is fair or not, it’s a bunch of hair splitting anywhere. We were told that with tax cuts we would see more jobs, instead we got a crashed finance system with wild speculation in things that don’t produce one single asset. Just a bubbles; betting against the market and betting on bad debt.
    .
    So I get it; austerity for every single one except for those that pay very little tax and can’t be bother to fuel our economy with all those jobs.
    .
    I know a lot of small business owners. Their problem isn’t that they’re paying to much tax, their major concern is that people can’t afford to hire them or buy their goods.

  • liberalmeltdown

    33.1, God you liberals are dense. What does this say?
    .
    Average small business owner salary is $233,600
    .
    http://www.zdnet.com/blog/itfacts/average-small-business-owner-salary-is-233600/11901
    .
    Who’s rich according to Obama? Those making over $250,000. That means lots of small business owners bright one.
    .

  • liberalmeltdown

    When you earn your living, living off of tax dollars, you take the good with the bad. Right now it’s bad, been bad, ain’t gettin’ better. Talk to you stimulus in chief. He’s the smartest guy on the planet. Surely he should be able to create jobs with no problem.
    .
    The tax revenue isn’t there. It is time to face reality.

  • 53_3

    Here:
    .
    Looks like this time, it’s today, Madison, tomorrow, anonymous obscurity:
    http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/02/19/wisconsin.budget/index.html

  • http://ironboltbruce.wordpress.com ironboltbruce

    Do You Hate Fascism, But Love Hitler? Do You Believe “Freedom Fighters” Should Be Fighting Freedom?

    If so, then like many “freedom fighters” in the Motorcycle Riders Foundation (MRF) you’ll have no problems panning the USA Patriot Act while at the same time praising F. James (a.k.a. “Fat Jim”) Sensenbrenner Jr. R-WI, the alleged “pre-9/11 silver spooner turned post-9/11 war profiteer” who sponsored (but in our opinion had neither the time nor mental capacity to author) the USA Patriot Act which, coupled with the SCOTUS Citizens United vs. FEC decision, ended freedom and democracy in the United States and will doubtless be noted by future historians as the final victory of greed and lust for power over, and the consequent beginning of the end of, the great experiment that was America:

    http://ironboltbruce.com

  • http://estevens43.wordpress.com estevens43

    Joe-
    How much time have you recently spent teaching in a public school classroom on any level? I think that the last time you were in a classroom was as a student, and that was a long time ago.
    It’s interesting how edu-experts such as yourself know that the solution to the problem of poor student performance rests solely with “inept” teaching, agree with Michelle Rhee (classroom experience 3 years), that if only the unions could be legislated out of the process student achievement would soar.
    Well the facts state otherwise as one of the other posters noted.
    So Joe, consider the following: maybe, just maybe, the current cohort of social media addicted students and their parents might be part of the problem.
    PS: I am not a teacher or a union member

    Read more: http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2011/02/19/more-hemlock/#ixzz1EW4MJab8

  • http://estevens43.wordpress.com estevens43

    Finally, a post by someone who actually has a real world experience in this area. So many of the bloggers have an agenda and are ignorant of this issue.

  • http://estevens43.wordpress.com estevens43

    What does this have to do with the right to bargin collectively? It’s my understanding that the unions are willing to negotiate salary concessions. What more do you want? Or are you one of those who want to destroy the union movement?

  • 53_3

    Well, freeinpa, you have to write to those who did all that polling to complain.
    .
    I’m just providing links

  • 53_3

    A lot more than the 50k I make. It’s like to make more, but I’m fine with my job, and can even afford to pay roughly two and a half times what I pay now.
    .
    But, the average business owner is no more important to this country than I am.
    .
    And I’m not talking about taxes on his business. I’m talking about taxes on income…

  • danallen2

    1. Are people railing against big business and the Citizens United decision which allowed BILLIONS in corporate money to buy politicians. Instead, the critics reserve disgust for too much influence on working class people.

    2. Wisconsin public service workers already proposed that they pay into their health care and retirements, but it was rejected by Walker because he wants to bust the ability of unions to support Democrats.

    3. Were it not for corporate welfare (such as Medicare Part D) then the benefits wouldn’t cost so much in the first place. America has a welfare problem. Taxpayers are sending huge amounts of money to corporate CEOs through TARP, Wall Street Ponzi schemes, Medicare Part D, Big Pharma and Medicare, Halliburton, military weaponry that even the Joint Chiefs of Staff say we don’t need, not to mention welfare for oil producers. The response, when things like the cost of health care rise to 25% of GDP, is to force workers to pay more. The response is never true reform for health care. Why? Because the politicians are bought and paid for by corporations.

    Republicans are supposedly trying to lower the deficit. Then explain to me why they want to eliminate a deficit cutting provision that disallows for-profit scams like the U of Phoenix from taking huge amount of taxpayer dollars? Phoenix continues to churn out students who fatten up the CEOs wallet but who immediately default on their federal student loans at the rate of 50%+ while non-profit defaults are below 5%.

  • liberalmeltdown

    53, you hire people, pay their salary, determine what to do when the economy goes south, hire and fire, make decisions that affect you and your employees? Deal with government regulations, create jobs? Put you own money on the line to risk losing it? No you don’t.

  • 53_3

    Oh, liberal, I produce what they need. I work in a highly specialized field.
    .
    The studies I have done have affected the flow of millons of dollars and influenced policies at the legislative level.
    .
    What have you done?
    .
    I’m sorry, but the worst risk he can take wll land him in a situation similar to mine.
    .
    He’s not superman, you know, and as far as your blatant attempt to establish superiority-based class criteria, I cant point to a better example.
    .
    I worship no man. Now pay your damned freight…

  • 53_3

    Without people like me and others who don’t have the blessed luck that I do in a job that I love, remember this, too:
    .
    Without us, a business owner wouldn’t make any more than he could make with his own hands.
    .
    There would be no millionaires or billionaires…

  • http://beaverpig.wordpress.com beaverpig

    53_3, you snidely comment: “You are the only one who believes that the so-called “8%” issue is important.”

    Well, obviously you are not one of the unemployed above that 8%, you elitist punk.

    Yes, I usually just read here and don’t comment, but your comment, 53_3 just shows what a reactionary clown you are.

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