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some larger problems: the hollowing out of the American middle class, of American industrial capacity; the lassitude in our educational system

Oh….You noticed the elephant in the room……..

Glad you mentioned Daniels’ silence during the Bush unfunded programs which added massively to the deficit. I can’t take any of this handwringing about the deficit seriously from people who supported what got us into the fix and the continuation of the tax cuts.

In addition, the hollowing out of the middle class that Paul mentioned as well. I’m not sure people realize how seriously the middle class has deteriorated. I posted a link to this graphic representation of the financial situation of the average family in morning reads, but suspect it will be lost in the clutter. It is worth a look.

http://www.visualeconomics.com/the-american-familys-financial-turmoil_2010-04-29/

glad you noticed the oppressiveness of the teachers on th educational system.
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First step is identify the odor- next step is wash out the smell

“deficit seriously from people who supported what got us into the fix and the continuation of the tax cuts.”
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Again spending causes the deficits not tax cuts. By repeating the lie daily does not make it so. And second the deficit more than doubled from the last Bush year to present. So it appears you don’t take the left seriously!

Lowering taxes = the government takes in less $
Taking in less $ = increased deficits
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Maybe I’m missing what RustFreep’s saying.

Didn’t read Klein’s column, but if Klein is praising Daniels, then I don’t think that will get Daniels any support from the pro-America community. Maybe Daniels needs to think about declaring his allegiance to the Democrat party where he belongs.

“But he passed the Bennett Test nonetheless, bracing his party on matters of style and intellectual honesty. He was brutally candid about how difficult real deficit cutting would have to be: neither the military nor the elderly would be spared.”
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So brutally honest that he forgot about the well off? Any talk about lower the deficit without raising taxes is not honest. You know it, and I know it. Let’s cut to the chase then shall we?

Freeinpa still believes that lowering taxes actually increases revenue. Don’t ask me how it works. It defies any logic, common sense and economic (scientific, as far as economics is science) data.

“And if a candidate tells you only things you want to hear,” he said, “if he asks nothing of you, then give him nothing in return, certainly not your vote, because he is not telling you the truth.”

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Have you done a “Bennett Test” of Barack Obama yet, Joe Klein?
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Has Gitmo been closed? I didn’t realize that happened.
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How about cutting the deficit and budget as he also promised to do once in office?
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This list of broken promises may be useful for you Joe when you write your next story on Obama (most likely when he11 freezes over I am sure).
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http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/rulings/promise-broken/

…(scientific, as far as economics is science) data.
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THAT statement is something that’s been at the back of my mind for some time too.
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Is there such a thing as one unified economic theory that explains EVERYTHING that happens and can’t be manipulated by the users to justify THEIR practices?
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If I let go of a quarter, it doesn’t drop here and rise on the moon. Same law of gravity applies both places.

Is there such a thing as one unified economic theory that explains EVERYTHING that happens and can’t be manipulated by the users to justify THEIR practices?

In a word, nope.

Again spending causes the deficits not tax cuts

Freeper, you know as well as I so that it’s entirely disingenuous to say that. If a budget is balanced and taxes are then cut without a subsequent reduction in spending, there will be a deficit. It’s not complicated and you’d do well to just admit it already. There must be a balance between taxes and spending or a balanced budget cannot be achieved.

Then, diecash, I guess ALL economics is of the “voodoo” type, not just the “supply-side” genre that GHWB referenced in his campaign against Reagan.

Would it be an accurate statement to say, then, that Greenspan, Bernanke, Summers, Geitner, et al, are little more than highly-paid “snake oil” salesmen, making semi-educated guesses or “wishful thinking” about what is they HOPE is going to happen economically?
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That’s sorta what I hear when they go on the toobz and pontificate about long-term economic forecasts.
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Lots of star-gazing and heel-clicking… NO firm promises or predictions.

Sorry, the cynicism is strong with this one today.

I guess ALL economics is of the “voodoo” type, not just the “supply-side” genre that GHWB referenced in his campaign against Reagan

I wouldn’t say that though I understand that you’re being cynical. The principles of micro and macro economics that underpin the vast majority of economic theory are relatively sound. The problem lies in the fact that economics is a “social” science that attempts to predict human behavior. One of my biggest points of complaint is the assumption that people always act rationally. It’s just not so and it often throws a curve into the mix.

Economics as do most sciences, relies heavily on models and empirical data. Models are a way to describe reality but it is incomplete and a simplification of said reality. Empirical data is then used to see how well the model holds up to reality and under what circumstances. Paul Krugman describes the Keynesian theory, its advantages and shortcomings a lot in his blog and column. So the ppl you mentioned are not snake oil salesmen necessarily as long as the don’t pretend that they are 100% correct. But that judgement is upto you or everyone else to make for themselves.

That said, I have a basic problem with Daniels’ message. He posits the federal deficit as an overwhelming “red menace.”
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If that’s the case, then what’s so “intellectually honest” about him? They’re all liars and hypocrits, juts f@cking say so and stop this ridiculous pretense that there are two governing parties in this country worthy of respect and consideration. As long as you continue to cling to the fantasy that Republicans, any Republican, should be taken seriously, rather than mocked and shamed, you’ll keep going down the rabbit hole with them.
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One more thing. Being a contrarian to a particular political orthodoxy isn’t a virtue unto itself. It matters a great deal what the orthodoxy is, you know, whether it is more-or-less right or wrong. But you don’t do policy substance there in the Village, do you? According to your pathologically non-partisan world view, being for welfare reform that creates greater class inequality or “free trade” agreements that help “hollow-out” our manufacturing base is just a laudable as calling out political lies about the effects of tax cuts or gun fetishism.

Yeah, that part about assuming the players will “behave rationally” (or honestly) is the kicker for me.
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How can any model be trusted if the users have demonstrated that they WILL alter the parameters of the model to their own advantage without telling anyone they’ve done so, if left without oversight?
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ESPECIALLY if they’re dismantling the oversight mechanism while they speak?

I think we have gotten to the point where it is legitimate to make distinctions about the degree of hypocracy, of disconnectedness, of sheer madness in the Republican camp. To be in politics is almost, by definition, to force oneself to turn a blind eye to some of the unpleasant circumstances that one’s nation/state or locality are in (there is a real danger that if you “tell it like it is” you will come across as a Cassandara or Gloomy Gus type, which most voters cannot abide). But there is still an important difference between the “old school” Republicans, whose world view I do not entirely share but whose attitude toward fiscal discipline I can appreciate (your Luigar, Daniels, Bush 41), and the reckless “New School” types, whose budget approach makes no sense and makes the incredibly difficult task of really tackling this deficit issue impossible.

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No matter how risible their ideas, we Democrats do, in fact, need to take Republicans “seriously”. To be sure, taken as a whole, their philosophy makes no sense. To use Paul Krugman’s wonderful phrase, they replaced the War on Terror with the War on Arithmatic. But remember, the job the Democrats face is to be able to make it clear to a certain group of scared and confused people who do not follow the news all that carefully that the Republicans’ proposals are ruinous. To that end, it is worth using the stance and the statements of one of the less nutty Republicans to amplify the implausibility of the program of Tea Party rank and file.

Myself, I voted for Hillary in the Democratic primary, but I am well satisfied that Obama has done as much as he could to hold to his campaign promises in the most difficult of circumstnces. With regard to Gitmo, every attempt to bring the prisoners out and put them on trial here in the US of A has been hooted down by the Republicans (Peter King in particular). So you can get off your high horse, given the fact it is your party that has fought the President every step of the way in making this happen.

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As to the budget and deficit, this ol’ nation of ours had to get up and walking after the horrible Recession that he inherited (and please note, I am not blaming the Republicans entirely for the Recession, but it was a clear fact on the ground). Again, given that every effort of the Obama Administration has been undercut by Republicans who, like you, are clearly cheering for America to be in the maximum amount of economic distress in 2012 for their own political purposes, the progress ain’t that bad. in the meantime, the mindless cheap shots keep coming, shorn of any constructive ideas. You guys are like arsonists complaining about the effectiveness of the Fire Department.

“To that end, it is worth using the stance and the statements of one of the less nutty Republicans to amplify the implausibility of the program of Tea Party rank and file.”
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Perhaps, if one were to do that. According to his fan boy here, Daniels’ great Republican apostasy is “the absence of demagoguery,” while catapulting every traitorous “conservative” fiscal lie ever told and claiming that it’s not the Republican lie machine that perfected the art of political nastiness. Face it, the last Republican in office with the character and integrity to deserve any respect was Chuck Hagel and he bailed on the rest of them more than two years ago.

“No matter how risible their ideas, we Democrats do, in fact, need to take Republicans “seriously”.”
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And I never said Republicans shouldn’t be taken seriously, I said they should be mocked and shamed. If journalists did a little more mocking, they might not look so stupid nodding and asking questions in apparent earnest, while Republican tell one idiotic lie after another to their smiling faces.

I think it appropriate to look at the IRS records and realize that more cash was brought into the us treasury during the Bush administration than any other administration in the history of the country. His problem like others Is that he tried to work across the isle and spent too much. But considering the Democratic controlled congress from 2007 to current racked up more debt than all the previous administrations since 1776. Time for fiscal restraint and a balanced budget amendment and a leader who is not afraid of sticking up for the country.

“Time for fiscal restraint and a balanced budget amendment and a leader who is not afraid of sticking up for the country.”
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Or time for avoiding simplistic, nonsensical and often contradictory “conservative” bromides in place of well-reasoned, tested and effective public policy. Take your pick.