Democratic Lawmakers Boycott Anti-Union Bill As Protests Escalate

Shelly Moore, 37, has taught English and drama at Ellsworth High School, in a rural patch of northwest Wisconsin, for 13 years. Her base salary is $49,000. She’s unmarried and without kids, so in addition to her regular classes, she teaches AP literature, directs a fall musical and a spring play, and coaches the school speech team. Those extra duties – along with the fact that she’s nationally board certified—bumps her total compensation to about $56,000. Like others in Wisconsin and around the country, her district is beset by budget issues. Shortfalls finally forced the layoffs of 24 of the school’s 150 teachers earlier this year. On Jan. 5, she learned she would be one of them.

Moore is one of many thousands of public workers in Wisconsin with a vested interest in the mushrooming debate about a measure that would strip most of their collective-bargaining rights. The dispute over Governor Walker’s “budget-repair” bill has escalated sharply. After Republican-controlled state legislature teed up a Thursday vote, Democrats forestalled the bill’s certain passage by ditching work to deny the GOP a quorum. When the Senate convened this morning at the state capitol building in Madison, only Republicans were present. According to the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, a passel of Democrats has fled the state; police have been dispatched to corral the absentees and return them to the floor. One Republican called it an attempt to “shut down democracy.”

Thousands of protesters, who have camped out in the capitol rotunda and stormed the halls since Tuesday, are witness to a frenzied scene. Schools are again closed – in Madison, the epicenter of the fracas, but also in some other state districts as well. Sign-toting public workers are decrying Walker’s bill, which would take away negotiating rights on issues ranging from benefits to working conditions, tie salaries to the Consumer Price Index and force significant mandatory increases in public-employee pension and health-care contributions. Yesterday, President Obama called the bill an “assault on unions.” National Education Association President Dennis Van Roekel, whose group represents nearly 100,000 Wisconsin teachers, says that state workers are being scapegoated by a governor hostile to unions. “It’s a politically motivated attack,” he tells TIME. “It’s not about money and it’s not about a budget fix. It’s an attack on unions. [The bill’s supporters] want to silence their voice.”

Whether or not that’s true, it’s also about money. Wisconsin has a $137 million shortfall for the fiscal year ending June 30, and a projected $3.6 billion deficit over the ensuing two years. Walker says his measure would save $30 million in the short term, and 10 times that other the next two years. The bill, which covers almost all state and local public workers – cops, firefighters and state troopers are exempted — would allow the state to sidestep some 6,000 layoffs, according to Walker. The governor, elected in November, offers a simple explanation for the bill’s necessity: “We’re broke.”

One of the ironies of the protests is where they’re happening. In 1959, Wisconsin was the first state to give public workers comprehensive collective-bargaining rights, and the governor’s bid to take most of them away has given rise to debates and demonstrations across the state. After work Wednesday, Moore traveled to the closest university, in Little Falls, where a hastily called meeting drew some 600 people. She says she’s amenable to sacrificing some of the benefits that make up for teachers’ comparatively lower salaries. What galls her is the notion that union employees are underworked, overcoddled and resistant to doing their part. “We recognize the state is in crisis,” she says. Her union has agreed to pay freezes, even as salaries skyrocketed across the state during flush times, and during the last two-year collective-bargaining cycle she took a small salary reduction (less than 1%). “We may not be well compensated but we’ve traded benefits for compensation,” she says. “We’re supposed to be leaders in our community, but our only way to have a voice is through collective bargaining.  Now that’s being taken away too.” Teachers, she says, are being told, “We don’t respect you, we don’t want your voice at the table.”

Some Republicans have expressed concerns about the measure, but none have indicated they will vote against it. The GOP has a 19-14 edge in the chamber, giving it a two-vote margin. While the Democratic boycott has infused the scene at the capitol with carnival overtones, the debate foreshadows a cascading series of discussions across the country, as GOP governors ushered into office with a mandate to mend broken deficits begin the painful blood-letting. Ohio will soon be voting on a similar measure, and other states will follow. What’s happening in Wisconsin will set the tone—which is one reason why both sides appear to be digging in their heels.

Related Topics: Education, Uncategorized
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  • jsfox

    Alex you may want to correct your reporting. Wisconsin’s fiscal house was in good shape before walker ginned up the budget problems.

    In its Jan. 31 memo to legislators on the condition of the state’s budget, the Fiscal Bureau determined that the state will end the year with a balance of $121.4 million.
    To the extent that there is an imbalance — Walker claims there is a $137 million deficit — it is not because of a drop in revenues or increases in the cost of state employee contracts, benefits or pensions. It is because Walker and his allies pushed through $140 million in new spending for special-interest groups in January.

    http://host.madison.com/ct/news/opinion/editorial/article_61064e9a-27b0-5f28-b6d1-a57c8b2aaaf6.html

    So the budget problems that now exist are all of Walkers making.

    Next there is no long term budget deficit either

    We found out yesterday after our briefing with non-partisan Legislative Fiscal Bureau, the $3.6 billion deficit in the next budget that Governor Walker and the media has been repeating is a MANUFACTURED CRISIS. The number is based on $3.9 billion in new spending requests by agencies, a 6.2% increase. I don’t think there is a member in the legislature that would vote for that. In fact, I asked Director Lang when was the last time we gave agencies exactly what they requested and was told he couldn’t think of one and he’s been here decades.

    http://markpocanwi.blogspot.com/2011/02/scott-walkers-manufactured-crisisaka.html

  • afguy

    Whether or not that’s true, it’s also about money. Wisconsin has a $137 million shortfall for the fiscal year ending June 30, and a projected $3.6 billion deficit over the ensuing two years.
    .
    C’mon, Alex. Add a little context here. This is ALOT about “union-busting”.
    .
    http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/wisconsin-gov-walker-ginned-up-budget-shortfall-to-undercut-worker-rights.php?ref=fpb

  • Paul-no not that one

    This has nothing to do with the budget.
    .
    As jsfox points out above to the extent there is a problem it is short term and self-created.
    .
    This is about union busting.

  • afguy

    Talk about “great minds”… :-)
    .
    A “triple-threat”!

  • freeinpa

    Soon they will run out of states to run away. Maybe we will find Bin Laden when we track down all the Democrats running and hiding from votes.

    NASHVILLE — Tennessee school districts would no longer have to engage in negotiations with teachers’ unions under a measure that is headed for a full Senate vote despite opposition from hundreds of state teachers.

  • jsfox

    Or maybe we should just close all the schools so everybody can be as ignorant as you.

  • shepherdwong

    Looks like we’ve already found the American Taliban.

  • Ivy_B

    Another bully!

    Yes, in advance of any debate over his proposal, Governor Walker put the National Guard on alert by saying that the guard is “prepared” for “whatever the governor, their commander-in-chief, might call for.” Considering that the state of Wisconsin hasn’t called in the National Guard since 1886, these bizarre threats did more than raise eyebrows. They provoked rage.

    Robin Eckstein, a former Wisconsin National Guard member, told the Huffington Post, [4]“Maybe the new governor doesn’t understand yet – but the National Guard is not his own personal intimidation force to be mobilized to quash political dissent. The Guard is to be used in case of true emergencies and disasters, to help the people of Wisconsin, not to bully political opponents.”

    In addition, after the Super Bowl victory, bathed himself sensuously in the team’s triumph, declaring at a public ceremony that February was now Packers Month. He oozed praise for the franchise named in honor of the state’s packing workers.

    But it seems the team has come out very strongly in support of the workers. Another dictator misjudging.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dave-zirin/green-bay-packers-sound-o_b_824279.html

  • http://gum0nshoe.wordpress.com gumOnShoe

    As far as reporting goes this seems a tad bit like hackery given all the information available [i]below[/i] the article…

  • afguy

    Agree. A complete “whiff” on the attempt…

  • 53_3

    Looks like Wisconsin has a Texas sized problem on it’s hands.
    .
    Damn those demonstrators anyhow…

  • liberalmeltdown

    Leftist propaganda. It’s not an anti-union bill. It’s a pro taxpayer’s rights bill. The public employee unions are crooks and thugs. They want to retire at 55 on $100,000 pensions paid for by people that can’t retire until 67 and make half of what they do.
    .
    Who is the real threat? The unions and Democrat politicians.

  • 53_3

    Looks like the anger, this time justifiable, is mounting.
    .
    And we didn’t need crackhead weasels like Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh to rile ‘em up:
    .
    Nope. Just as I thought:
    .
    The Tea Party’s own agenda being enacted has brought this about…

  • 53_3

    Hey Hosni, how’s that hotseat?

  • Paul-no not that one

    “a passel of Democrats has fled the state”
    .
    On the outside chance one of you came to Minneapolis you are welcome to crash at my place.
    .
    And yes, I’ll make a beer run. We know your state’s reputation.

  • 53_3

    Nice catch!
    .
    Just like Hosni, Walker is threatening to call out the military as Ivy noted below.
    .
    What joy to see that the American people are now beginning to see just what the GOP agenda is…

  • 53_3

    Let ‘em know there’s a place here for those headed west, PNNTO.

  • shepherdwong

    They want to retire at 55 on $100,000 pensions paid for by people that can’t retire until 67 and make half of what they do.
    .
    Please go to the chalkboard and write 1,000 times: “I promise to stop lying.

  • afguy

    Please go to the chalkboard and write 1,000 times: “I promise to stop lying am a pathological liar. I can’t help it.”
    .
    There, shep, fixed it for you. Much more accurate…

  • paulejb

    Unable to control state politicians as they had in the past, public employees are forced to take to the streets to defend their perks and benefits. They insist that the gravy train continue on down the track and damn the taxpayers.
    .
    It would seem that union donations to politicians no longer buy what they used to. Welcome to the real world.

  • outsider2011

    Good thing you aren’t trying to generalize..

  • 53_3

    Remember that I warned you that you may just get what you wanted.
    .
    It now appears that you will, so I’ll repeat myself again:
    .
    Be careful, you may just get what you wished for…

  • paulejb

    53_3@11.1,
    .
    A veiled threat? Should I be concerned, 53?

  • freeinpa

    Seems a nerve has been struck as the loons are in full whining. It will be the end of civilization as we know it because the people are demanding competence and accountability for their tax dollars,

  • 53_3

    Kinda resonates with this current headline from CNN:
    .
    “Egypt prosecutors order arrest of former ruling party chief, 3 ministers from Hosni Mubarak’s government, MENA reports.”
    .
    http://www.cnn.com/

  • jsfox

    Damn the tax payers indeed. And you can thank Walker for it. He created this budget crisis where none existed before he took office.

    This guy is gone in a year on a recall vote.

  • freeinpa

    Maybe its for his protection because those fun loving civil teachers union has put out a picture of the governor with a bulls eye with a caption to repeal him.

  • http://gum0nshoe.wordpress.com gumOnShoe

    Its not a threat you idiot. He said you’re sticking a shotgun in your mouth and it wouldn’t be smart to pull the trigger.

    Unfortunately for us, he’s managed to get one in everyone’s mouth and they’re all jerry rigged together.

  • 53_3

    Paranoia becomes you, paulejb.
    .
    I was referring to your fondest wishes, ideologically.
    .
    You must really be on edge to read a threat into it.
    .
    Is it perhaps the Tea Party is kicking the hornets’ nest and the American people are watching the outcome?
    .
    Like i said:
    .
    You may just get what you wished for…

  • afguy

    No, I believe he’s saying that you wanted to have the TP in power enacting their preferences – and now you have it, repercussions among the citizenry and all.
    .
    Turns out they really hadn’t thought things through to any real degree and the reality of governing is a lot different from being simply “pissed off” and against everything thoughout an entire election.

  • 53_3

    “Unfortunately for us, he’s managed to get one in everyone’s mouth and they’re all jerry rigged together.”
    .
    And guess what, paulejb:
    .
    They will be angry enough to turn out in droves to vote

  • 53_3

    Oops. That was in replay to paulejb.
    .
    It’s a wonder they all got it except paulejb…

  • 53_3

    Never seen one, freeinpa.
    .
    Link please.
    .
    Also, dimnuts (my first direct insult in a while!), you might note that this anger is very, very real…

  • liberalmeltdown

    Just because you idiots scream in unison doesn’t mean that you know a damn thing.
    .
    In CA, Teachers can retire at 55.
    .
    http://www.cta.org/Professional-Development/Publications/Educator-March-10/CalSTRS-update.aspx

    For those who leave the teaching profession and go to another profession, can they still receive their CalSTRS pension?
    Yes, provided they have a minimum of five years vested into CalSTRS. They cannot receive this until they reach 55.
    .
    whaaatts that say? R e a l s l o w n o w…5 5.
    .
    http://taxdollars.ocregister.com/2011/02/11/number-of-100000-retirees-skyrocket-in-teacher-pension-system/75286/
    .
    On its website, the foundation publishes searchable databases of retirees earning $100,000 or more from a couple of state pension systems, including CalSTRS, the pension system for retired California teachers.

    The foundation initially obtained the data for its “CalSTRS $100,000 pension club” database in May 2009. Back then there were 3,010 retirees earning $100,000 or more annually from CalSTRS. Earlier this month, the foundation obtained updated data from CalSTRS and the number has grown to 5,308 (5,309 if you count one woman earning $99,998.88).

    That’s a 76 percent increase. In less than two years.

    And that’s not all. The foundation, run by President Marcia Fritz, also requested a list of CalSTRS retirees earning $75,000 or more annually. Guess how many CalSTRS pensioners are earning between $75,000 and $99,999.99.

    19,503.

    Combined you’re looking at 24,811 retired California teachers earning more than $75,000. That’s more than the entire population of Seal Beach.

    .
    Whaaats that say? $100,000 p e r y e a r t e a c h e r p e n s i o n s. At what age? 55 you freakin leftists.
    .
    They can also purchase 5 years of pension that they didn’t work for further soaking the taxpayers of the state. ALL BROUGHT TO US BY THE CROOKS IN THE ASSEMBLY AND THE PUBLIC EMPLOYEE UNIONS with starring roles by Gray (Quatro anos no mas) Davis and Benedict Arnold Schwarzenegger.
    .
    http://articles.latimes.com/2011/feb/16/local/la-me-pensions-airtime-20110216
    .
    California state employees take advantage of pension perk
    State allows employees to increase retirement benefits by buying up to five fictitious years — known as ‘air time’ — to add to their public service. Financial advisors call it a great deal for retirees but bad for taxpayers.
    February 16, 2011|By Anthony York and Jack Dolan, Los Angeles TimesReporting from Sacramento — Tens of thousands of California state workers are taking advantage of a perk that pays them pension benefits for years they don’t actually work, and reformers looking for places to cut have put it at the top of the list.

    State law allows the employees to increase their retirement benefits by tacking up to five fictitious years — known as “air time” — onto their public service. Although they pay a fee for the privilege and officials say it is high enough to cover the eventual payouts, critics of air time note that the boost can cost taxpayers millions when the state pension system’s investment income falls short, as it has in recent years.
    .
    Air time offers a return nearly twice as generous as a similar benefit — known as an annuity — that can be purchased on the private market, said Dan Pellissier, who advised former Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger on pensions. Pellissier, who as a state employee purchased five years’ credit, is now pushing to eliminate air time as president of California Pension Reform.

    Private financial advisors agree.

    “It’s a phenomenal deal for retirees, but it’s an absolute fleecing of the taxpayers,” said Scott Hanson, a principal in Sacramento-based investment firm Hanson McClain.
    .
    Stick your Public employee unions where the sun don’t shine.

  • freeinpa

    The Horrors!! Contribute to pension an dhealth care like the great unwashed Americans and work past 55. Creul and unusual punishment

    The Appleton Area School District has 120 educators age 55 or older who are eligible for full state retirement benefits.

    .
    Walker’s plan calls for nearly all state, local and school employees to pay half the costs of their pensions and at least 12.6 percent of their health care premiums. That would save $30 million by June 30 and $300 million over the next two years, Walker said

  • filmnoia

    It’s quite sad when a poster has to come and school a TIME reporter on some elemental facts about their story. This seems to happen quite often on this board, but then the sorry state of lazy, supine American journalism should be left for another discussion.

    What is happening in WI, and attempting to be done in other states, has nothing to do with finance and all to do with politics. This is all part of a Rovian plan to destroy public employee unions, you know, those people who are the get out to vote foot soldiers on election day. With US demographics trending away from them (and, which no Right Winger can deny) the GOP’s only plan is to either steal elections (like FL in 2000 ) or see to it that fewer people go to the polls(Ohio in 2004). A solid union get out the vote effort is important to Dems in states like WI, OH and PA. The people protesting now in WI understand this. I just wish the national Democratic party would get out front in this effort instead of acting like geldings.

  • 53_3

    When your ideology begins to hit people in the pocketbook, freeinpa, I think you’ll find that you might be able to lie to yourself, but I doubt you can lie to them.
    .
    Na na na na, Na na na na, say hey now, Good Bye
    Na na na na, Na na na na, say hey now, Good Bye

  • paulejb

    Wisconsin teachers come down with a mysterious flu, all at the same time, but show up for demonstrations while their students miss a school day.
    .
    Democrat politicians spirit themselves out of town in an effort to thwart the will of the people.
    .
    Union activists speak of “class war, as they send a mob to the Governor’s home. The Hitler signs appear at rallies and the calls for taxing the rich fill the air. A more greedy bunch hasn’t been gathered since the last Oprah audience that was looking for a new car from the Queen of schmaltz.

  • afguy

    Just because you idiots scream in unison doesn’t mean that you know a damn thing.
    .
    No, sittingonmybrains, that’s the RW’s thing… the “screaming in unison” bit, that is… they don’t call you the “Wurlitzer” for nothing.

  • doddeb

    Agreed, jsfox. There’s all kinds of funny accounting going on to “justify” the public employee union bashing we are seeing all over…including my own state, Ohio.
    .
    A good article this week in the Nation, on the betrayal of public workers, discusses the right wing hysteria regarding “bloated” public employee pensions. Seems that the right is using the worst case scenario math when making claims that the pension funds are unsustainable:
    .
    “Thus, these estimates [of future pension fund earnings] vary by huge amounts, depending on the presumed rate of return for the funds. The irony is that right-wing doomsayers in this debate, such as Grover Norquist, operate with an assumption that the fund managers will be able to earn returns only equal to the interest rates on riskless US Treasury securities. Under this assumption, the level of unfunded liabilities balloons to the widely reported figure of $3 trillion. To reach this conclusion, the doomsayers are effectively arguing that the collective performance of all the Wall Street fund managers—those paragons of free-market wizardry—will be so anemic over the next thirty years that the pension funds may as well just fire them and permanently park all their money in risk-free government bonds. It follows that the profits of private corporations over the next thirty years will also be either anemic or extremely unstable.
    .
    But it isn’t necessary to delve seriously into this debate in order to assess the long-term viability of the public pension funds. A more basic consideration is that before the recession, states and municipalities consistently maintained outstanding records of managing their funds. In the 1990s the funds steadily accumulated reserves, such that by 2000, on average, they were carrying no unfunded liabilities at all. Even after the losses to the funds following the previous Wall Street crash of 2001, the unfunded share of total pension obligations was no more than around 10 percent. By comparison, the Government Accountability Office holds that to be fiscally sound, the unfunded share can be as high as 20 percent of the pension funds’ total long-term obligations.”
    .
    The full article is well worth a read since it discusses all the right wing talking points that are being used to trash the unions.
    .
    http://www.thenation.com/article/158647/betrayal-public-workers

  • freeinpa

    Even a liberal Democratic governor has come to his senses. The Teachers union is following the same tried and failed path of the UAW, Steel workers and airline workers unions. Demand moire and more money, blue chip benefits and produce inferior results. And the market finally says: Enough!!!

    If the governor proposes a $1 billion cut and the Legislature approves it, the mayor estimated the city would be forced to cut 15,000 teachers, most of which would be accomplished through layoffs. That’s on top of plans, outlined by the mayor in November, to cut 6,166 teachers in the fiscal year beginning July 1

  • afguy

    This was a reply to the “brain trust” posting at 13.

  • paulejb

    gumOnShoe@11.4,

    I missed 53′s mention of a shotgun in the mouth. I thought he was just talking through his hat as usual, but now you claim that he really is resorting to violent imagery.
    .
    How soon we forget Tucson.

  • freeinpa

    “while their students miss a school day.”
    .
    Some didn’t miss a day. They were taken by teachers to the protest. When asked why they were there? “I don’t know, our teachers told us to come”. I wonder how many parents knew?

  • liberalmeltdown

    So af, you got anything? Anything at all? No, just an empty skull. You can’t even respond loser.

  • afguy

    You know, I’ve been listening to “Mr. Market” for a while now, and can’t remember him actually SAYING a d*mned thing… apparently, though, he always seems to say what anyone in the RW want him to say.
    .
    When he’s not being “nervous”… or “skittish”… or in need of “re-assurance”, or “lacking confidence”, that is.
    .
    Sounds like “Mr. Market” is a complete emotional “basket case”.
    .
    Why do you want to listen to (or talk to) someone as screwed up as that?

  • 53_3

    You must be very dense, paulejb:
    .
    The reference to a shotgun was figurative.
    .
    Everyone else got it, and even I explained what I meant.
    .
    Now, if you want to milk this for all the paranoid feelings you can muster, I can’t help you…

  • freeinpa

    “I was referring to your fondest wishes, ideologically.”
    .
    I doubt if he was paranoid, just an inability to follow the nonsense you write that comes out of the dust cloud that used to house the few remaining active brain cells you have.

  • paulejb

    afguy@15,

    If screaming in unison is a “RW thing,” why is the mob roaming the Capitol halls in Wisconsin decidedly left wing?

  • afguy

    Shift your posture at your desk slightly to the right and I’m certain that headache will go away.
    .
    Barring that, as good BM might help too.

  • 53_3

    If that were true, freeinpa, why did everyone else get it?

  • freeinpa
  • freeinpa

    Always ready to harbor fugitives, deserters and terrorists

  • paulejb

    53_3@11.8,
    .
    Sure, you claim that the imagery is “figurative,” but what about all the left wing freaks out their who might take it literally.
    .
    You should really put a governor on your mouth, 53. You can never know when a left wing loon may be looking in as he fiddles with his bomb making equipment in his Mom’s basement.

  • freeinpa

    No they have nothing, the world they loved is crumbling. People fed up with endless spending, more taxes and a failing education system are saying the free ride is over

    Wisc., NJ, NYC Tenn all saying we can’t afford overpaid incompetence any more and liberal hearts are breaking all over the country

  • 53_3

    My mouth is fine, paulejb.
    .
    You can make of it what you want if you need to keep a death grip on your paranoia.
    .
    GumOnShoe’s comment was essentially telling you that the TP is committing political suicide.
    .
    How clear can that be?
    .
    I tell you, this is like trying to tell someone with untreated schizophrenia they need to take their medicine to make those voices go away:
    .
    You won’t accept my explanation or theirs? Fine.
    .
    I can’t help you…

  • paulejb

    53_3@12,
    .
    You really shouldn’t try this at home, 53. You are entirely too heavy handed. When a light touch is required, you apply a bludgeon. What you believe passes for humor is just oafishness. And you have absolutely no clue to the fact that you are being mocked.

  • 53_3

    So then, freeinpa, if it’s wrong for them to do it, then it was wrong for Sarah Palin to do it on a national level.
    .
    Right?
    .
    And, btw, they are copying who????

  • paulejb

    freeinpa@14.1,
    .
    You know that the Teacher’s unions are desperate when they have teachers taking the children hostage. They have had it their own way for too long with bought and paid for politicians. Now that those politicians are in the minority and have fled the state the union leaders have no recourse but to resort to thuggery.

  • 53_3

    Actually, paulejb, I always thought of it a s very, very pointed sarcasm.
    .
    And I understand your unhappiness with it, but you are the target.
    .
    Also, don’t forget to explain to the Jewish community about how you can conclude that SEIU union members are Nazis like you tried yesterday.
    .
    I’d still like to see you do it…

  • http://grapemusing.blogspot.com/ grape_crush

    Just because you idiots scream in unison doesn’t mean that you know a damn thing.
    .
    That’s more the Tea Party’s bag, baby…
    .
    In CA, Teachers can retire at 55.
    .
    So? What about Wisconsin?
    .
    For those who leave the teaching profession and go to another profession, can they still receive their CalSTRS pension?
    .
    And that’s a problem…why, exactly?
    .
    Combined you’re looking at 24,811 retired California teachers earning more than $75,000.
    .
    Good for them. They negotiated for pay and benefits, just like any other working person can do and now they can enjoy a secure retirement.
    .
    You should be happy for them, not angry at them for accepting what was offered.
    .
    They can also purchase 5 years of pension that they didn’t work for further soaking the taxpayers of the state.
    .
    That’s not uncommon. I know a few former state employees who used their deferred compensation to ‘buy years’ so they could retire. One of them couldn’t work anymore due to physical limitations, so it was a good thing.
    .
    Stick your Public employee unions where the sun don’t shine.
    .
    Try sticking your right-wing-ideologically-induced case of anti-tax-anti-working-class-anti-American-anti-government-anti-rational-anti-intelligent-anti-compassionate-anti-sanity and put up yours instead…what you believe is pretty much of the same quality as what’s in there now, so it shouldn’t be all that uncomfortable for you.

  • paulejb

    afguy@17.1,

    The headache will go away as the days of union domination of state governments come to an end. They will fight a desperate rear guard action to defend all their perks and benefits but their day is done. Even liberals like Andrew Cuomo have seen the writing on the wall.

  • certifiablylazy

    It’s a surveyor symbol.

  • bobcn1

    ‘They want to retire at 55 on $100,000 pensions paid for by people that can’t retire until 67…’
    .
    Why stop at $100,000? If you’re going to lie about public employee pensions, why not say they get $1,000,000. Neither number is true, but the million dollar lie will be scarier and maybe more effective for your smear campaign.
    .
    Regarding the people that can’t retire until 67, the CEOs and executives that they work for (and who they produce the wealth for) don’t seem to have that problem. Maybe the people you’re talking about should be joining unions rather than bashing them.

  • paulejb

    53_3@12.3,
    .
    Of course, you would. You probably see all your own words as literary gems admired by the world. But you have been playing to the choir for so long that you have been deceived about your lack of any real ability for wit or satire.
    .
    P.S. You’ll enjoy this…
    .
    http://youtube.com?watch?v=cFeUhSIHiUQ

  • 53_3

    Also, those teachers that are 55 or older are generally very good at what they do.
    .
    I’m wondering:
    .
    How much of this is covering professorships at major universities?

  • 53_3

    I’ll pass paulejb.
    .
    As far as I’m concerned, the very fact that you don’t like it tells me all I need to know.
    .
    I would suggest that you abandon your penchant for recreational anger. Recreational or not, you are still subjecting yourself to a higher risk of cardiac arrest…

  • freeinpa

    Oh but Palin was castigated by every left wing nut job and then you whined about civility and how the right caused violence
    .
    So was it ok for Palin to do it or are you just a hypocrite and violent again

  • apr2563

    Maybe if reporters would start their day by reading TPM rather than Drudge, Politico, or Halperin first:
    .
    http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/wisconsin-gov-walker-ginned-up-budget-shortfall-to-undercut-worker-rights.php?ref=fpb
    .
    You can read the fiscal bureaus report here (PDF). It holds that “more than half” of the new shortfall comes from three of Walker’s initiatives:

    •$25 million for an economic development fund for job creation, which still holds $73 million because of anemic job growth.

    •$48 million for private health savings accounts — a perennial Republican favorite.

    •$67 million for a tax incentive plan that benefits employers, but at levels too low to spur hiring

  • shepherdwong

    I hope all the Teatards here realize that, in the currently raging class war, you’ve just come down on the side of Richard Mellon Scaife and the Koch bothers…and George Soros. And against all of the rest of us…teachers, firefighters, police, steelworkers, auto workers, the entire federal work force (the FBI, SEC, food inspectors), etc., etc. Returning troops are going to need jobs too and I don’t think Goldman Sachs is hiring.

  • 53_3

    OH, I almost forgot:
    .
    Why dont you bless us with a comparison of the Nazi SA to the SEIU?
    .
    Please! Put it on the table!
    .
    You’ll have to explain to the Jewish community just why you want to minimize the atrocities committed by the SA against them…

  • afguy

    paulie,
    .
    If you have to explain how clever you are, you’re probably not doing it very well yourself…
    .
    Kinda like telling everyone how smart you are… if you are that, no one will need an explanation.

  • http://thisislinsi.wordpress.com thisislinsi

    why is the focus solely with the welfare of the public educators in WI. It does not just affect them. My parents have been hard working lower level union workers for their entire lives. My father is a high school janitor and my mother is a nurses assistant. This bill will greatly diminish their paychecks to almost nothing. My dad is 3 years away from retirement and they are threatening his pension. The middle class union workers will survive, but for the lower class workers who depend on their union to stay afloat will suffer the most.

  • paulejb

    53_3@11.12,
    .
    You can try to spin this all you like, 53, but the fact remains that you were inarticulate in your attempt at satire.
    .
    As I said before, perhaps you should not be trying this at home.

  • freeinpa

    “The reference to a shotgun was figurative.”
    .
    See you just don’t understand. Figurative is brilliance and witty when the left does it. But anything no matter how innocent by the right is cause for castigation and incarceration.
    .
    They go on and on (yeah about everything) about civility and language but its only a punch line just like all their patriotism and belief in the constitution

  • 53_3

    paulejb:
    .
    Did you enjoy your bout of paranoia and faux anger?
    .
    Those kinds of things will give you a headache, you know…

  • freeinpa

    And that is what should be addressed. Instead all you hear is how the poor over paid teachers are facing a catastrophe. I doubt if you dad complains that he need to empty less trash cans this year than last or he needs an hour (period) off before doing his next job. And anyone that close to a normal retirement (65) should not have their retirement screwed with

    Unfortunately the union won’t give a rats behind about these folks.

  • bobcn1

    …a passel of Democrats has fled the state; police have been dispatched to corral the absentees and return them to the floor. One Republican called it an attempt to “shut down democracy.”

    Kinda sounds like a filibuster to me. How is this different from the gopers filibustering so often that we now routinely see reporters claim that 60 votes are required before a vote can be held on anything in the Senate (as though that were normal). If the gopers don’t like it it never gets a vote.

    You’ve got to love the irony of gopers complaining that the Dems are ‘shutting down democracy’.

  • paulejb

    53_3@12.5 & 12.6,
    .
    What’s not to like? An inarticulate fool trips over his own tongue. I could go on watching you spin like a top all day.
    .
    By the way, how do you explain to your Jewish friends the beating of a black man by SEIU thugs with their purple shirts clearly on display?

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Of all the people to demonize why do the trolls here think they make headway dissing teachers? It’s one of the most noble professions anyone could choose, usually for less than stellar rewards. But in freeperville, they are the Devil incarnate. It simply doesn’t make sense.

  • freeinpa

    What a delusional mind you have. How does 11% of an entire countries workforce equal to everybody.

  • 53_3

    freeinpa:
    .
    Seems to me you have stormed in here since early this morning, insulting everyone personally, and artlessly at that!
    .
    Anyone who can read can see your comments, so, are you going to actually deny it?
    .
    I’ve insulted someone once (you), and that was in response.
    .
    So, Kettle, how’s that stew cookin’?

  • apr2563

    liberal: I linked you to a site on another thread that shot down your $100,000 lie. Can you link me to a site that proves it. Say it is so doesn’t make it so.
    .
    Oh h*ll. Try to read the facts this time.
    .

    The average monthly member-only benefit is $4329.

    Employees contribute to their retirement fund.
    .
    •You contribute 8% of your creditable compensation. This is withheld from your paycheck.
    •Your employer contributes an amount equal to 8.25% of your creditable compensation.
    •The state of California contributes 2.017% of your creditable earnings. However, this amount is calculated from the fiscal year ending in the previous calendar year, not on your current compensation.
    .
    California State Teachers’ Retirement System (CalSTRS) participants do not pay into the Social Security system as California educators. Instead, they pay a higher percentage of their earnings into the CalSTRS fund. Therefore, they do not qualify for Social Security benefits at retirement, unless they are eligible due to a spouse’s earnings or earnings from another job on which they did pay Social Security taxes.

    .
    http://ctainvest.org/home/CalSTRS-CalPERS/about-calstrs/calstrs-retirement-benefit.aspx
    .
    Anecdotally, I have 2 cousins that taught in the Ca system you speak of. Neither ever came close to a $100,000 dollar salary or retirement. Both taught over 35 years.

  • 53_3

    incarceration?
    .
    hoo boy…

  • apr2563

    The people of Wisconsin love their Packers. In fact the people of Wisconsin own their Packers. The governor may have taken on a force greater than the teachers.

  • freeinpa

    “Kinda sounds like a filibuster to me. How is this different from the gopers filibustering”
    .
    Filibustering is a recognized process in legislatures. Cutting and running is recognized tactic with Demos and the French

  • 53_3

    Did I do it?
    .
    No.
    .
    Did the SEIU condone it?
    .
    No.
    .
    Should they pay for their crime?
    .
    Yes.
    .
    There. Now what does that have to do with comparing the SEIU to the SA.
    .
    After all, right wing terrorism since the late ’70s has killed more than 400 Americans.
    .
    So, now that we covered that subject, how about you continue with your blessed explanation.

  • certifiablylazy

    What comparison would you make to the citizens who spoke at town halls for/against health care?

  • 53_3

    Easy freeinpa:
    .
    Either they are both right, or they are both wrong.
    .
    I know where I stand. They are both wrong.
    .
    No hypocrisy…

  • shepherdwong

    It simply doesn’t make sense.
    .
    There’s only one way to make sense of the Teatards throwing their support behind billionaire oligarchs and railing against teachers, firefighters and cops: they will despise whatever enemy is identified to them by their authoritarian leaders. If Rush Limbaugh tells them to get their hate on for teachers, they’ll do as they’re told, period.
    .
    http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/

  • freeinpa

    “It’s one of the most noble professions anyone could choose, usually for less than stellar rewards. But in freeperville, they are the Devil incarnate. It simply doesn’t make sense.”
    .
    Yes it is always a sign of a noble profession when you put a bulls eye on the governor after you call in sick when you are not. Or when you strike putting the student you claim to love in jeopardy of missing out on scholarship because events get canceled or classes missed because you refuse to have a $1 co-pay on your prescriptions so the school district can save money. Or kick and scream about any rules of accountability or responsibility for more and more students being ill prepared for college and life for more and more money.

    Noble indeed!

  • 53_3

    It’s a shame. These people do not make all that much money, and they are the most vilified group out there.
    .
    You would think they were terrorists, the way they talk…

  • shepherdwong

    The only thing more delusional than thinking the people you hate represent only 11% of the work force is thinking that your brainwashed, authoritarian-following ilk represent a majority of Americans. Far, far too many but still far from a majority.

  • bobcn1

    This guy reminds me of the loud mouth at the party that laughs a lot at his own jokes. And no one else does. And he never gets invited back.

  • freeinpa

    “:It’s a shame. These people do not make all that much money, and they are the most vilified group out there”
    .
    Now you just sound stupid even for you. Vilify? How is people who pay an ever increasing amount of money for salaries and blue chip benefits for people who work fo r9 months in return for lousy results saying enough is enough vilifying?

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Or when you strike putting the student you claim to love in jeopardy of missing out on scholarship because events get canceled or classes missed because you refuse to have a $1 co-pay on your prescriptions so the school district can save money

    Freep’s a great improvisattional artist. He can make stuff up on the fly with the best of them……

  • certifiablylazy

    @21.3 – They do. See 10.2.

  • paulejb

    53_3@17.4,
    .
    Quit while your behind, 53. You got smoked on this one and now you are just making yourself look more foolish.

    P.S. Got an explanation yet for the SEIU thuggery against a black man?

  • 53_3

    not only that, he keeps coming back…

  • freeinpa

    Amazing how none of the pathetic arguments the left are making (and they are pathetic) none raise the facts that despite spending more per capita for education than any country except one or two and have received falling results for over 25 years years and now rank in the mid 20s on math and science ever stop fo ra moment and say maybe we aren’t getting our monies worth.

    .
    No we get these are poor people being vilified. They are just mom apple pie and America and its all for the children. What’s happening now is for the children. Hold teachers accountable, spend money wisely so the children can be educated and not burdened with debt to pay for what has been poor edication

  • apr2563

    Thanks for giving us some documentation liberalmelt. Better than anecdotal. I would have to know more about the “air time”. It sounds unreasonable.
    .
    I have never disputed the age at which teachers could retire. The few companies that offer pensions and those that offer 401Ks have a 5 year vesture.
    .
    Now find out how many of those earning more than $100,000 are administrators.
    .

  • 53_3

    saw that, cert. Not worth responding to. Typical freeinpa.
    .
    This is playing out in front of the American people. We will know very soon about whether the TP is in the process of committing political suicide.

  • paulejb

    Paul Dirks@21,

    What’s noble about lying about being sick and then dragging your students to a demonstration. Then demanding in loud voices that taxpayers continue to feather your nest despite their own hardships.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    And this has absolutely nothing to do with what goes on at home or in school boards across the country who want nothing more than to decimate the science curriculum in the name of religion.
    .
    It’s easier to vilify teachers than recognize the entire culture of ignorance that they have to fight on a daily basis.

  • 53_3

    “…what has been poor edication.”
    .
    Let those who stand in glass houses throw the first stone…

  • apr2563

    shepherd: The reactionaries don’t seem to understand the Rep party is destroying the middle class.

  • paulejb

    bobcn1@20,
    .
    I find the imagery of Democrat politicians fleeing in the dark of night clutching bags of union cash fascinating. It’s like rats leaving a sinking ship.

  • 53_3

    I’m pretty sure that the teachers didn’t take kids without parental permission.
    .
    What freeipa is doing is drawing an assumption – then – demonizing them for it.
    .
    Typical “strawman”…

  • Paul-no not that one

    Wow this thread got hit with a bunch of stupid.

  • 53_3

    You didn’t read my comment on it?
    .
    I’m still waiting for you to explain how the SEIU is comparable to the Nazi SA.

  • paulejb

    53.3@21.7,
    .
    Are you still here? I must say that you are a glutton for punishment.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Well to begin with, there’s a pretty good chance that the students who are there participating are doing so because they like their teachers. I’m having trouble understanding why the right-wingers can’t understand this simple concept.

  • 53_3

    See 12.9

  • freeinpa

    It’s easier to vilify teachers than recognize’

    . boohoooo tears are welling up. Who fights any accountability and results. School boards? Teachers in parochial schools and most private schools make a fraction of public schools teachers. Their benefits many non-existent and yet better results. and wouldn’t they be more prone to that bogus argument of destroying science
    in the name of religion?

    “Let those who stand in glass houses throw the first stone..science”
    .
    Poor typist? guilty! In case you can’t read the “i” key is next to the “u” key

    .
    The arguments get weaker and more pathetic.

  • paulejb

    Paul Dirks@22.1,
    .
    “…the entire of culture of ignorance that they have to fight on a daily basis.”
    .
    Considering the reading and math scores of their students, they are obviously losing the fight against ignorance. Some would say that they are really not fighting it. Some would say that they are in the business of political indoctrination.

    “Barack Hussein Obama, hmmm, hmmm. hmmm…”

  • liberalmeltdown

    Yeah, it’s a crying shame that Republicans believe that teachers in LA that cannot graduate more than 40% of their students shouldn’t be allowed to retire at age 55 after working so hard for 8 months out of the year, and collect $100,000 pensions. Mean, mean ole wasty repubicans.
    .
    Liberals: that’s what you get from a failed public school system.

  • freeinpa

    Yes liberals are testing positive for stupid and rabid.

  • Paul-no not that one

    With all the screaming down below none have addressed this post.
    .
    I wonder why.

  • paulejb

    Paul-no…@23,
    .
    “wow this thread got hit with a bunch of stupid.”

    Only since you got here, Paul.

    I couldn’t resist. You just walked right into that, Paul.

  • freeinpa

    “Well to begin with, there’s a pretty good chance that the students who are there participating are doing so because they like their teachers”
    .
    Most students like their teachers but they are supposed to teach not be their fraternity brothers. And when asked why they are there, they responded “I don’t know”.

  • freeinpa

    “shepherd: The reactionaries don’t seem to understand the Rep party is destroying the middle class”
    .
    I thought that happened when manufacturing base left?

    .
    Oh yeah the unions did that too! Notice a pattern

  • liberalmeltdown

    Congrats you are the winner.
    .
    Same old failed arguments; same old failed education system, but you “stand by your man,” regardless that the majority want, no have to have, it reformed.
    .
    Repeating the same thing over and over with failing results, isn’t just stupid. It’s a mental deficiency that liberals have.

  • Paul-no not that one

    Wow why did freep and paulejb think I was referring to them?
    .
    Telling.

  • Paul-no not that one

    Adding, Meltdown.
    .
    Why do you think it was directed to you three?

  • sasquatch08

    Paul,
    .
    As an atheist myself, I have to say that you’re unsupported blanket statement that all religious people or republicans for that matter, hate science and want to destroy its teaching is laughable at best and outright slander on your part at worst.
    .
    Sure there’s a few nuts out there like that, but 85% of America considers itself “Christian” and no where near that number, want the teaching of science removed in favor of Creationism or whatever else you may have cooked up in your mind. Max, 5% of Americans fall into that category.
    .
    Of course there were also a few nuts who actually wanted to “Kill Bush”, that “Bush lied us into this war” (to which I always asked: to what end? and never got an answer) and believed that the war in Iraq was a “war to steal their oil” also probably no more than 5% of the overall population.
    .
    The rest of people are reasonable people who support the teaching of math and science and realize that pretty much the entire world was misled by poor intelligence (ie the lack of human intelligence the western world has in the middle east) of the existence of WMD’s in Iraq, but that we couldn’t just roll in, smash the country up and leave.

  • paulejb

    53.3@12.9,
    .
    Did you withhold dues as a protest against blatant SEIU thuggery?
    .
    Did the SEIU sanction the miscreants in any way?

    The purple shirts and the brown shirts. The same brand of thuggery. It makes the comparison all too obvious.

  • freeinpa

    “I’m pretty sure that the teachers didn’t take kids without parental permission.”
    .
    Isn’t that an assumption? I see your public school training is showing. It seems a bit hard to believe that students are their with parental permission (but then you think they are underpaid and overworked) but have no idea why they are their. Of course they could be the shining example of what exactly is wrong the public system.

    .

    blockquote>Wis. HS Students Admit Teachers Bringing Them to Protests but Don‘t Know Why They’re There

  • paulejb

    certifyablylazy@14.3,

    You have to stop tossing these softballs, lazy. One group took their own time to educate themselves on the subject of health care and then voiced their opinions at townhall meetings for the good of the nation.
    .
    This group in Wisconsin is merely interested in feathering their own beds at taxpayers expense.

    P.S. When are you going to do another cartoon?

  • freeinpa

    “Wow why did freep and paulejb think I was referring to them”
    .
    I didn’t. I was agreeing with you that the liberals have lost their minds over this. You inability to understand my post is what is telling

  • apr2563

    Do any of the reactionaries know how much teachers spend out of their own pockets to suplement their classroom?
    .
    http://thejournal.com/articles/2010/07/08/teachers-spend-1.3-billion-out-of-pocket-on-classroom-materials.aspx
    .
    “Teachers Spend $1.3 Billion Out of Pocket on Classroom Materials’
    .
    Do they have any idea how much out of classroom time teachers spend with students as mentors, supervising student activities, and counseling?
    .
    Do they have any idea how much time teachers spend at home preparing lesson plans, grading papers, working on administrative paper work? There is no overtime pay for teachers.
    .
    Do they have any idea how much time teachers spend taking classes to learn how to teach children with disabilities?
    .
    Do they have any idea the stress that comes with teaching?
    ,
    Do they have any idea how much time teachers have to spend with unreasonable or unattentive parents and school boards who are in the pocket of administrators?

    Do they have any idea how much most teachers love and care about their students? This is something that is not asked of most professions. They do so willingly.

  • apr2563

    By the way I had 3 teachers that absolutely turned me around in high school. I am forever grateful.
    .
    I am sure even the reactionaries have memories of teachers who were important to their personal growth.

  • paulejb

    Paul-no…@23.4,

    I didn’t care who you were addressing with your comment. I just saw that you left yourself wide open so I took the shot. Now I feel guilty for grabbing the low hanging fruit. My apologies.

  • Paul-no not that one

    So they have adjourned and the Dems aren’t coming back until this is taken off the table.
    .
    And the people charged with forcing them to return support the Dems.
    .
    Should be a fun staring contest.

  • paulejb

    apr2563@24,
    .
    They can’t have it both ways, apr. They can’t be noble, self sacrificing public servants at one hand and then become greedy, grasping parasites when their pay and perks are threatened.

  • liberalmeltdown

    I thought you were confessing in advance.

  • paulejb

    53_3@17.7,
    .
    See 12.10.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    have to say that you’re unsupported blanket statement that all religious people or republicans for that matter, hate science and want to destroy its teaching is laughable at best and outright slander on your part at worst.

    Except that I didn’t say that. But the culture of ignorance I refer to is quite widespread and usually includes bandying around word like ‘elites’ I never said that what went on in Pennsylvania was representive of all religious people. Nut I wouldn’t call it Liberal either.

    And note to Freep. The superiority of private schools is entirely due to self-selection in action. Students who choose private schools are significantly more likely to be motivated students. Correlation does not equal causation.

  • apr2563

    They can be noble, self-sacrificing public servants and expect to be paid well for their services.
    .
    Unless you want to go back to the days of the school marm who depended on the town for a home, had to promise not to marry, took care of the school house upkeep, I don’t find your concern for teachers wanting a living wage as reasonable. Parasites: they work hard and want to protect their contracts.

  • liberalmeltdown

    Eventually you skip on down the progressive liberal path until you have teachers that don’t care about their students. They pass them though whether or not they have pushed them to succeed, and the kids are unprepared for life. Meanwhile the Teacher’s Union controls the State Assembly, as in California. You cannot cut a program, not even a fraction, without them claiming that kids are going to suffer, blah, blah, blah. They spend millions of dollars every election pasting their propaganda on TV. Give us more money is all you ever hear from them.
    .
    And the results: FAILURE AND BANKRUPTCY. Thanks to all you caring slobs that turn out illiterate kids and take the money and run.
    .
    To the rest that want to reform the schools, you better stand up soon.
    .
    http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2008-04-01-cities-suburbs-graduation_N.htm
    .
    The graduation rate for Milwaukee was a whopping 46% in 2008.

  • sasquatch08

    I’ll ignore the comments at the beginning of this post, since they were all snipped from online editorials, that is to say opinion pages and I have no way to validate their claims.
    .
    On the one hand I can understand why unions are angry about the idea that this bill would strip them of their collective bargaining rights, I mean what’s the point of a union that can’t bargain as a single entity? And is that really needed in Wisconsin? I mean have these particular unions been belligerent enough that they simply can’t be dealt with except by this harsh of a measure? I, not being a resident of Wisconsin, nor having children in its educational system am unable to answer those questions.
    .
    On the other hand some of what’s in the bill is entirely reasonable, like asking union workers to contribute 5.6% of their salary towards their own pension, as if that would drive them into bankruptcy or something, and also asking them to have what I understand to be a 12.6% copay on their health insurance. Even if it’s not a copay, but is rather a 12.6% annual contribution, it’s still not terribly unreasonable. I mean, to borrow the liberal argument in support of the ACA, if these union members can’t afford those costs the way the rest of us do then perhaps they aren’t budgeting themselves very well?
    .
    As I understand this Bill, it’s designed to prevent the layoffs of 6000 or so public workers in the next fiscal year, is it not better for those 6000 people to have a job with some mildly reduced benefits than no job at all?
    .
    I don’t know all the facts of this one, and I doubt that anyone here does either, but there seems to be a lot of unreasonable behavior going on here. I mean these unions got caught bringing in children from their schools to protest and the kids are on camera saying (I’m paraphrasing here) “I guess we’re here to protest, but I don’t know what about”.
    .
    On the one side here I see the Governor making what appears, on the surface, to be making an unreasonable demand about collective bargaining, on the other side I see democrats who are so scared of the “will of the people” (arguably this is the will of the people since they elected so many republicans, and if they don’t like this sort of measure they can vote them out in favor of democrats next time around) going against their entrenched special interests [unions] that they subvert the process to avoid losing a vote that they don’t like.
    .
    Way to stand on principle and defend your views via the political process there Wisconsin democrats. What a great example this sets: when you think you’re going to lose a vote you don’t like, run away, ignore the state constitution and subvert the political process you were elected to take part in.
    .
    Putting on my political science hat here for a moment, there is only one reason to not show up for this vote; you know public opinion is against you.
    .
    Why? Because, if you truly believed your position was supported by the majority of people in your state, you would stay, make an impassioned argument against the bill, vote against it and if it passed you would use it in the next election cycle against those who voted for it, hence causing them to lose their seats.
    .
    The only reason to turn tail and run is because you know you’re going to lose and that your position on the issue is not one you can defend in future election cycles, so you’re willing to prevent a vote, but not actually cast one against the bill that can be used against you in the next election cycle, possibly costing you YOUR seat.

  • http://miermj.wordpress.com miermj

    How about we use news and facts instead of blogs & editorials.

    Taken from The Lakeland Times, “11/17/2009 9:33:00 AM Email this article • Print this article
    Pew Center study shows Wisconsin in fiscal peril
    Unemployment, budget gap cloud state’s future
    Richard Moore
    Investigative Reporter

    The study observed that the recession has cost Wisconsin 140,000 jobs and one-eighth of its manufacturing workforce, according to the Center on Wisconsin Strategy, a nonprofit group based at UW-Madison. What’s more, the report continued, Wisconsin’s unemployment rate rose 4.4 percent from the second quarter of 2008 to the same point in 2009.

    The fallout from the economic downturn – reduced revenues and more demand for state safety-net programs – left the state with a $6 billion shortfall in its 2009-11 budget, the report stated. That’s a budget gap of 23.2 percent.

    “The budget would have fallen short even without the national economic crisis, although the recession made the state deficit much larger than expected,” the study observed, citing Andrew Reschovsky, a professor of public affairs and applied economics at UW-Madison. “Federal stimulus funds of $2.2 billion helped plug some budget shortfalls this year. For the rest, lawmakers raised taxes on the wealthy, hospitals and smokers, and cut spending by $3 billion, mostly by cutting salaries for state employees.”

    Fiscal crisis in the state – The Problem The Problem •2003 -2005 projected revenues fall short of expected expenses •Current deficit stands at $4.825 billion •Most recent reports estimate the shortfall to be $ …

    legis.wisconsin.gov/assembly/asm09/news/Documents/WCApaper.pdf · PDF file

    That’s just two articals from, let’s see, one from 2009 and the other from 2002.

    I guess that shoots the claim that “Wisconsin’s fiscal house was in good shape before walker ginned up the budget problems.” out of the water.

    As far as the teachers calling in “sick” and then showing up at the capital to protest WITH students, well, I hope they had signed consent forms from the parents of those children!

  • paulejb

    apr2563@24.3,

    They should also expect that their pay should be based om merit as it is in the private sector. No more tenure, no more LIFO. Do you think that the noble teacher’s union leaders will buy into that, apr?

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    On the other hand some of what’s in the bill is entirely reasonable, like asking union workers to contribute 5.6% of their salary towards their own pension, as if that would drive them into bankruptcy or something, and also asking them to have what I understand to be a 12.6% copay on their health insurance.

    And if those measures are needed, there’s a reasonable way to acheive it. You negotiate it. No one’s up in arms over the details of the teacher’s contract. They are up in arms because they are being stripped of their only recourse to object.

  • Paul-no not that one

    “That’s just two articals from, let’s see, one from 2009 and the other from 2002.”
    .
    So your position is that a two year old article and a 9 year old article speak more to the conditions of 2011 than Wisconsin’s Fiscal Bureau’s report from January 31, 2011?
    .
    ttp://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2011_01_31Vos&Darling.pdf
    .

    I guess people can read and decide for themselves.

  • jsfox

    Heavens forbid you go actually read the report from the Wisconsin Legislative Fiscal Bureau that the editorial linked. That supports both the editorial and the post.

  • 53_3

    “53.3@12.9,
    .
    Did you withhold dues as a protest against blatant SEIU thuggery?”

    .
    It wasn’t “SEIU Thuggery”. It was just plain assault, and maybe a hate crime. Those guys dont represent my union, they represent themselves.
    .
    “Did the SEIU sanction the miscreants in any way?”
    .
    Are the attackers in the process of going into criminal proceedings? Are they being sued? Is the justice system handling this? Was the guy injured? I don’t know the answers to those questions, but I’m sure it’s for the justice system, and not SEIU, to handle.
    .
    “The purple shirts and the brown shirts. The same brand of thuggery. It makes the comparison all too obvious.”
    .
    Next week, you’ll be following in rusty’s footsteps and show clips of “minority x behaving badly” to justify a blast of xenophobic hatred toward “minority x”. I haven’t yet heard you criticize rusty – and if you were not a hypocrite, you would do so.
    .
    As for a single incident in which some idiots beat this guy up, it’s a far, far cry from helping send 6,000,000 Jews to the gas ovens.

  • 53_3

    12.11

  • http://miermj.wordpress.com miermj

    lol just so that beer run is too Wisconsin, you know we cheese heads don’t do the 3/2 junk!

  • paulejb

    liberalmeltdown@25,

    I think that we can put a period to this discussion with a quote from the late Al Shanker, Teacher’s Union leader.

    “When school children start paying union dues, that’s when I’ll start representing the interests of school children.”

    So much for nobility.

  • shepherdwong

    … then become greedy, grasping parasites when their pay and perks are threatened.
    .
    I’d like to see what a “greedy, grasping parasite” you’d become if I threatened your pay, you miserable f@ck. Assuming there’s some company miserable enough to pay you in the first place.

  • http://miermj.wordpress.com miermj

    “So your position is that a two year old article and a 9 year old article speak more to the conditions of 2011 than Wisconsin’s Fiscal Bureau’s report from January 31, 2011?” No, my position is that “Wisconsin’s fiscal house was in good shape before walker ginned up the budget problems.” can not be accurate if one can find info from 9 years ago stating otherwise. Walker only took office last month.

    “Heavens forbid you go actually read the report from the Wisconsin Legislative Fiscal Bureau that the editorial linked.” My comment wasn’t really about the editorial linked, it was about how “walker” ginned up budget problems, and about teachers calling in “sick” yet can make it to the capital to protest (with some students).

    I could’ve made it about Ms. Moore, who makes $56k a year, 23k more than a Wisconsin state elected representative or senator (not saying anything is wrong with that, just pointing that out). She lives in Ellsworth Wisconsin. You can rent a 2 bedroom apartment in that area for $400 a month. That’s an outstanding wage for that part of the state, well, most of the state for that matter.

  • rahonavis2

    You left out some pretty important details in your recap
    such as
    “What is the current age a member can retire and begin to receive a CalSTRS pension?
    A teacher may retire as early as 50 years old if she has a minimum of 30 years of service credit. For all others who have a minimum of five years accumulated service, the minimum retirement age is 55. The median age of retirement is 61.3 years.”

    .
    .
    So yes if they have 30 years service, they can retire at 50 or 55, yet the median age is 61.3. Given that the US census says that the national median (i.e. for all jobs) is 62, your argument that teachers are retiring much earlier than the rest is false.
    http://www.ehow.com/about_4618296_average-retirement-age-america_.html
    .
    .
    Now about the $100,000 club, you forgot to note the last sentence of that article
    “Note, however, that the data does not indicate the final position held by the retirees. Some of the people on the list may have retired as school administrators, not front-line teachers, thereby boosting their benefits.”
    .
    .
    Now you could stay on the calstrs website and find out the monthly benefits for the average teacher, its right here http://www.calstrs.com/About%20CalSTRS/fastfacts.aspx
    .
    Members Retiring in Fiscal Year 2008-09
    Number retiring 12,753
    Median age at retirement 61.6 years
    Median service credit 29.0 years
    Average monthly Member-Only Benefit $4,396
    .
    .
    now 4396 per month times 12 is $52,752, or about 1/2 the $100,000 number you cite. That club is made up primarily of administrators. Here for example are the top 10
    ISAACS, DANIEL M-Chief Operating Officer LAUSD
    .
    FISHER, ROBERT J-person in their site with that name was a doctor who was a certified healthcare provider.

    WENTWORTH, FREDRICK-San Joaquin County Superintendent of Schools

    HERNANDEZ JR, EDWARD-chancellor of the Rancho Santiago Community College District (RSCCD)

    SHATTUCK, VIRGINIA J-Superintendent NORWALK – LA MIRADA UNIFIED SCHOOL DISTRICT

    JAQUE-ANTON, DONNALYN E-Associate Superintendent Division of Special Education

    SMITH, JAMES F- unknown but the named a school after him

    RAINEY, SUSAN J-Superintendent Riverside Unified School District

    MILLER, MARILYN L-Superintendent Hillsborough School District
    .
    .
    So all are administrators, as are most likely much of the rest. You have provided no evidence that actual front lien teachers are either retiring much earlier than the average american or have huge pensions. Your attack, on unions is baseless.

  • Paul-no not that one

    If you refuse to read the report then there can be no explaining to you how Walker ginned up (and really there is no other appropriate term) this fiscal “crisis”.
    .
    Again the report is from the Wisconsin version of the CBO not some party with an agenda. That’s why I linked to that rather than a 2nd party.

  • paulejb

    shepherdwong@24.5,
    .
    You are so predictably knee jerk, Wong. Criticize any liberal shibboleths and you go ballistic. Your blood pressure must be 300/200.
    .
    I seriously doubt that you ever met a payroll in your life, Wong. You have all the aspects of a wage drone.

  • paulejb

    53_3@12.11,
    .
    If only those union goons had left those purple t-shirts, with SEIU on the back in white, at home when they were beating the hell out of that black man. Then you wouldn’t have to be spinning like a top to explain the thuggery, 53. If only!

  • paulejb

    apr2563@18.3.

    Au contraire, apr. The Republican party is the middle class.

  • rwbbinla

    @14.2 comment… Teachers taking children hostage comment is nothing short of idiotic. That rapier wit of yours is amazing. Keep on stroking yourself.

  • sasquatch08

    “And if those measures are needed, there’s a reasonable way to acheive it. You negotiate it.”
    .
    If they are truly “needed”, you don’t negotiate at all.
    .
    Negotiation over something like this would end up with them using the same political clout they’ve used to get everything else they’ve wanted in the past 30 years to water down the agreement and we’ll be back talking about this again in a few years, if not next year.
    .
    Pensions and benefits need to be sustainable for the long term, those who are unwilling to take sustainable benefits should be removed from their position and unions that put their own interest ahead of the taxpayers who pay every cent the union gets, should be busted.
    .
    “They are up in arms because they are being stripped of their only recourse to object.”
    .
    First off, I’m pretty sure I covered that and stated that I’m on the side of the unions on that topic, at least for now. You don’t need to be condescending and explain something to me that I’ve already explained and taken the unions side on.
    .
    Further, I’m pretty sure that the First Amendment still guarantees their right “…to petition the Government for a redress of grievances” regardless of what those grievances are. Since they work for a the government, they can complain about pay all they want and the government and ask for a redress of their grievances related to pay an benefits.
    .
    Further still, it could be argued, they don’t actually need those bargaining rights anyway, since they control politicians who will give them what they want in return for votes on election day which is how we got into this mess in the first place.
    .
    I can understand the argument that until the incentive structure for politicians to reward special interest groups at everyone else’s expense, public sector unions collective bargaining rights are just another way for unions to screw the states.
    .
    As I said, I don’t agree with that argument, unless, on a case by case basis, there is good evidence that the unions have been and are continuing to be so belligerent that there is no other way to deal with them.
    .
    However, I do understand the argument especially in light of the above mentioned senators. Who are willing to flee the state and their responsibilities to it in order to appease the unions, over what would appear to be public opinion on the issue.
    .
    In cases where a union just won’t budge and is bankrupting the state or just trying to milk the system at taxpayer expense, they should be stripped of all bargaining rights and having proven themselves unworthy of the public trust, never receive said rights again.

  • rwbbinla

    @20.4.. Clutching bags of union cash comment. That rapier wit coming through yet again. You are indeed a sharp edge.

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  • artraveler

    Free couldn’t survive 1 day in a classroom as an observer, much less a teacher. If you think teachers are overpaid then go into the profession and live the good life. There is a very good reason why half of new teachers drop out in 3 years. It is a thankless task thanks to parents who don’t give a damn and people like Free who run the airwaves berating anything but private schools. Public education created the great American middle class and the Koch brothers accompanied by the corporate money behind the Tin Hat party are doing their best to destroy what is left of America,

    Teachers in my state started at $26 K in 1996 when I started. Not bad as it was a change in careers and only dropped my income by $104K. I worked harder at teaching than I ever did as a VP of a manufacturing facility (whose production is now done in Ireland thanks to the US tax code).

    I notice that it is okay with Free for business people to retire at 55 or earlier, just not the people that make his city run. I think that the southern strategy slave theory has embedded the Tin Hat people/party and it is showing up in everything they do.

  • liberalmeltdown

    When school children start paying union dues, that’s when I’ll start representing the interests of school children.
    .
    That’s so caring. Makes me want vote to raise my own taxes in support. Barf.

  • rover27

    sasquatch08-Another republican throws in their 2 cents….and that’s more than it’s worth.

  • 53_3

    Sorry paulejb, I think you are trying to find ways of pinning it on the union.
    .
    They didn’t endorse it, they didn’t condone it, and it’s certainly not their job to prosecute it.
    .
    That’s for the police and the criminal courts.
    .
    I don’t have a problem with the SEIU. They work hard, and hell, they are not even all that strong a union.
    .
    So I don’t plan on protesting anything.
    .
    Except for your attempts to demonize…

  • 53_3

    …and paulejb:
    .
    I’m absolutely the wrong person to try and tag as a sympathizer with what might be a hate crime.
    .
    I’m not “spinning like a top”. I’ve made clear my position on it.
    .
    And as yet, you have not commented whatsoever about the right wing terrorism that has claimed hundreds of American lives since the late ’70s…

  • liberalmeltdown

    As a last note. If government employee pensions aren’t a big problem, WHY is the liberal Governor Jerry Brown trying to reform them? Hmmmm? Is he a “reactionary”? It’s because even Governor Moonbeam (I can’t believe that we have this moron back as governor) realizes that they are bankrupting the state.

  • http://erieangel.wordpress.com erieangel

    Everybody is forgetting one important fact: Pension plans, for the most part, were solvent until the economic crash of ’08. Banksters and bond sellers sold bad investments to pension plans and now it is the hard workers of America who are being asked to suffer over the long term because of the poor investments.
    .
    The banks got bailed out, nobody was charged or convicted for their illegal shenanigans. Our economy isn’t even any longer the fault of the bank crashes, it is now the fault of unions, Fanny and Freddie and the poor and middle classes. How did this happen?

  • hippooath

    “You really shouldn’t try this at home, 53. You are entirely too heavy handed. When a light touch is required, you apply a bludgeon. What you believe passes for humor is just oafishness. And you have absolutely no clue to the fact that you are being mocked.”
    .
    We get it already. You’re a outstanding smart@ss. Only problem is that in order for you to be a lightfooted smart@ss you also have to start with some truth and make it funny. Yours is just the regular garbage of sticky sh!t ideologues spew and if you think there’s anything clever and especially fresh about the same trite we’ve already heard for years you kind of fell off the wagon on the whole light touch.
    .
    Just give it up already. You’ve not said one single thing that make me chuckle – and I laugh at Newfreedom and Freeinpa all the time.
    .
    Now go stand in the end of the line of you absolutely brilliant and wordly righties.
    .
    Lets see, we have pretend doc earl that just finished brain surgery on a snake and made a Chimera out of sheep dog and a puma, you have financial genius day trader rich Freeinpa that apparently do not have anything else to do each day while being really rich so he spends it here making fun of liberals. kind of like poking pigs or something I guess. You have doctor Newfreedom that sells survival seeds and believe the world have gone under but we don’t know it yet. He also think Obama is the anti-christ, while being a secret moslem and Kenyan and communist. You have 3x that always glad to tell us what a rich and fulfilling life he have had and with his Wisdom and experience we should all be happy that he grace us with it from time to time.
    .
    We have RDW who impresses us with his nativistic need to believe in Glenn Beck. Such as that guy that wrote a book over the summer about how liberalism and fascism is the same. But the historians that spent decades researching it and totally trounched his work of fiction were all wrong. Why, who knows. RDW admits that the book was not really a historical work, more like a very convincing opinion. Which somehow triumphs reality and the body of historic work that we have.
    .
    Then we have you. You came here talking about how you were above name calling and in look of a discussion with a light touch. You keep repeating how hamfisted and unsophisticated we all are but you see like with all the other ones you mention, if you have to tell us what you are and it’s not obvious, than the whole ‘Im this and that’ kind of feels empty and idiotic.
    .
    So seriously. Just drop the bullsh!t. Join the rest of the group of people who like to molest every single fantasy you think you know about liberals and just know that we’re probably laughing our @sses off while you pad your backs and sniff up every single dumb@ss thing you can think of. Crude yeah? But maybe you can stop self congratulate something you don’t really have.
    .
    If you have to repeat your bio about WHAT you are every second post it’s most likely irrelevant bullsh!t.
    .
    Just give us your ideas already and spare us the nonsensical resume since no one here is about to hire you anyways.

  • http://miermj.wordpress.com miermj

    1.11If you refuse to read the report then there can be no explaining to you how Walker ginned up (and really there is no other appropriate term) this fiscal “crisis”.
    .
    Again the report is from the Wisconsin version of the CBO not some party with an agenda. That’s why I linked to that rather than a 2nd party.

    I didn’t refuse to read anything, I read the report. I was just giving the example that Wisconsin has had budget issues for a whole lot longer that 6 weeks. But then that conclusions comes from living there most of my life and paying attention, not just educating myself on Wisconsin when the stuff hits the fan.

  • liberalmeltdown

    31, no we aren’t forgetting that. But contracts to Government Employee Unions were based on projections that nobody should ever make. And, these were made during the internet bubble when everyone thought that 25% market returns would go on and on forever. Duh.
    .
    http://www.caivn.org/article/2010/07/24/jerry-brown-calls-schwarzenegger-style-pension-reform
    .
    CalPERS projected in 1999 that the Dow Jones Industrial Average would reach 25,000 by 2009, 595,000 by 2049 and 28 million by 2099! On these projections, the Legislature passed massive increases in benefits for state workers without matching increases in worker contributions to their retirement. A decade later, the Dow is in the 10,000s and the state’s projections were clearly inaccurate.
    .
    .
    Schwarzenegger style pension reform. That’s a laugh. Arnold was just another ho.
    .
    Ah….are we at 25,000 on the DOW. No, 12,000.

  • sasquatch08

    rover:
    .
    So are you the most uniformed, egotistical and one of the least constructive people on the planet, or are you just an @sshole?
    .
    What bearing does what you posted here have on anything? Actually, now that I think about it, what bearing does anything you’ve ever said on here have on anything? You rarely have any facts, just your wild statements and insults.
    .
    Seems to me there are 3 groups of people on the swamp.
    .
    The first are people who are here to have a constructive conversation, and maybe actually learn something from the other side. Patrick would be a good example of that, while I disagree with what he says a lot of the time, he’s not am arrogant, snide, spoiled little child in an adult body. Sometimes these people get a little frustrated and say something they shouldn’t but for the most part they’re civil.
    .
    The second group is people who are just here to instigate Nothing they ever say is constructive, it’s just trying to get under the skin of liberals and anyone else they disagree with. They basically do nothing but show up here, insult Obama and anyone who likes him, liberals, leave a link to a right-wing site and repeat.
    .
    The third group, to which you apparently belong, also have nothing constructive to say. They’re here to join the other liberals screaming about Bush was the worst president ever and should have been executed, how Republicans are “traitors”, how the GOP only exists to help corporations destroy the planet blah blah blah. They come here for one and only one reason, to post with the other liberal bomb throwers and, stroke each others ego’s and talk about how they have the best ideas ever to be thought by anyone on the planet at anytime and how anyone who doesn’t agree with them is either retarded or a “traitor” to the United States.
    .
    In short, you and your ilk are what’s wrong with politics in America today. You have nothing constructive to offer (26.3) in way of ideas to move forward, only GOP bashing statements to make.

    You’re a classic bully, and quite frankly you make yourself look like an idiot because that doesn’t work very well on the internet. Single line insults don’t intimidate anyone when you’ve shown you have no sense of history, politics, economics or any other topic being discussed.
    .
    Oh, and I have no allegiance to the Republicans. If you’d taken any time to read what I say you’d know that, and anyone else on here who’s not new can tell you that.

  • sasquatch08

    @Paul
    .
    “Except that I didn’t say that. But the culture of ignorance I refer to is quite widespread…”
    .
    Well, except that you DID say that. Perhaps you should be more careful with your diction, because what you said was “…nothing to do with what goes on at home or in school boards across the country who want nothing more than to decimate the science curriculum in the name of religion.” “…the entire culture of ignorance…”.
    .
    According to Webster: Entire: Adjective. 1 “having no element or part left out”, 2 “complete in degree”.
    .
    You used the adjective “entire” to modify the noun “culture”. So when combined with your comment on religion what you said, whether you meant it or not, did literally mean “everyone in our culture is against teaching science based on religious reasons”. Which apparently, due to the definition of “entire” means you as well.
    .
    Sorry for taking you at your word(s), misplaced and misused as they may have been.

  • sasquatch08

    “Did I do it?
    .
    No.
    .
    Did the SEIU condone it?
    .
    No.
    .
    Should they pay for their crime?
    .
    Yes.”
    .
    So does a similar statement, made many times by the way, get all the gun owners, TEA Party people and Sarah Palin off the hook for what that lunatic did down in Arizona?
    .
    If not, you’re a hypocrite.

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