The (Smart) Politics of Punting on Entitlements

Everyone seems to be outraged that President Obama has broken his promise to tackle entitlement reform and turned in a 2012 budget that ignores two main factors in ruinous fiscal outlays, Social Security and Medicare. Obama’s budget proposes cuts in discretionary spending, but in his State of the Union address in January he declared, “We have to stop pretending that cutting this kind of spending alone will be enough.” The only way to tackle our deficit, Obama said in the speech, is to target health care spending and social security.

Beyond the quaint idea that politicians should do what they promise, there are policy reasons the White House should worry about entitlements. The cost to maintain mandatory spending programs is growing, not least because Obama and the Republicans agreed to cut paycheck contributions to Social Security last December, and health care inflation is steadily on the rise. Politically there would appear to be dangers too, as the mid-term elections seemed to be about fiscal responsibility: 39% of voters in exit polls said reducing the budget deficit should be the highest priority for the next Congress.

In reality, though, for Obama the politics break cleanly towards punting on entitlement reform. The most recent Pew poll on public attitudes towards the budget deficit show broad agreement that it is a major problem but little support for measures that would address it. 70% of those polled in early December by Pew said the federal budget deficit was a major problem that needed to be addressed, but only two measures—raising the Social Security contribution cap and freezing federal salaries—received majority support. Reducing Social Security for high-income seniors squeaked plurality support 48%-47%. All other measures, including creating a national sales tax, raising the Social Security retirement age, raising Medicare contributions or taxing employer-provided health insurance, ranged from 52% to 72% disapproval.

The politics don’t get any stronger in support of action on entitlements by Obama when you break the issues down on party lines. Democrats oppose benefit and spending cuts much more aggressively than Republicans, of course. But on some proposals targeting entitlement spending, like reducing Social Security for high-income seniors, independents disapprove more strongly than either party. Even if Obama is willing to compromise and move forward with reform, as he said in his press conference Tuesday, he has political room to let Republicans go first if they want to take a whack: when it comes to dealing with the deficit those polled by Pew had confidence in Obama 53%-44%, vs. Republican Congressional leaders 40%-56%.

And whatever the lessons of the midterms, budgets are less of a voting issue in presidential elections. The last time budgets made a difference in a presidential race was in 1992 when Ross Perot stole votes from George H. W. Bush, helping Clinton to win. No one’s going to steal votes from Obama in 2012 by running as an independent and calling for balanced budgets.

That doesn’t mean Obama’s decision to punt is good for the country: Getting deficits down is important both for the long-term viability of entitlement programs and for reassurance that the U.S. economy is solid and the government can pay its debts. But should Obama spend any political capital leading the charge to cut popular programs? It’s hard to see why he would.

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  • marvyt

    Obama realizes that he will need to negotiate with the Republicans on the budget. It would be incredibly stupid to put all his cards on the table at the beginning of that process. In fact, at his press conference he got that question and stated that this is just the start of negotiations. By the way, Social Security and Medicare are not part of the current 1.5 Trillion deficit, shouldn’t we fix that first? Also, as Paul Krugman pointed out, means testing Social Security would probably net very little savings.

  • swissArmyBrainBETA

    as krugman concluded on his blog after reviewing the pew survey, “the conclusion is inescapable. republicans have a mandate to repeal the laws of arithmetic.”
    .
    and so obviously for the initial (and not aaallll that consequential) budget proposal, it makes perfect sense to appear serious about the deficit (40 billion or whatever sounds like a lot if you don’t know anything about the budget. and ppl dont) w/o scaring ppl w/ any real cuts to the real expensive programs. that will have to come later after much negotiation and planning. not something u want to talk publicly about right now

  • swissArmyBrainBETA

    “SS and medicare are not part of the current 1.5T”
    .
    huh? i really don’t understand that. for one, u don’t first take care of existing debt, and then deal w/ looming bigger shortfalls. it’s all about getting to the point where revenue > payments (and debt stops increasing) asap since the REAL problems hit when u can’t borrow at reasonable rates any more. right now, we just pay a lot of interest on debt. bad, but not a disaster yet.

  • pintortwo

    Thanks MC.
    .
    Interesting. I’m a bit surprised that “only two measures -raising the Social Security contribution cap and freezing federal salaries -received majority support” when this is such a hot topic. I’d expect if they asked about reducing medical costs it would get that support (empowering Medicare to negotiate drug prices, tort reform…). Also surprised that there were only two measures that a majority of republicans backed (fed salary freeze and raise SS contribution cap). And that dems were slightly more supportive of the deficit-reduction measures.
    .
    There were only 4 measures that didn’t have a majority disapproval– raise SS contribution cap, fed salary freeze, reduce SS for high income seniors and cuts to military weapons programs. The first three seem a bit unfair- you pay into SS but get less back, and there are a lot of people that fall under “fed employees”; but that’s me and cuts rarely seem fair. The fourth could be the most impactful measure discussed, but it doesn’t get mentioned by major media or the politicians.

  • liberalmeltdown

    Smart? Really? As in Obama is so smart, he’s gonna get himself re-elected by playing politics at a time of national crisis by not leading and making those mean old nasty Republicans do all the dirty work. So’s Obama can just sit back and demonize them mean old nasty Republicans for actually caring about the future of the United States, while Obama gets himself re-elected.
    .
    He may be smart, but any commentator that thinks this is smart or good for the country, isn’t. That means you dumbass, and your readers.
    .

  • rdw56

    It’s not smart at all. Obama got creamed last November because of the deficit and spending. He just signalled he’s going to keep on spendng on everything. He has increased budgeted for NPR and they reach $460M. This is an outrage. Why on earth is the govt funding a radio station? The response that it’s ‘not that much’ only compounds the insult. Their audience it tiny. Few independents listen. No one wants to fork over $450M per year so liberals can babble

    All this is going to do is ensure spending remain the #1 issue every day probably for most of the legislative session and pound home the reputation of Obama as a “tax and spend’ liberal. We know two things right now. Spending is out of control and Obama doesn’t intend to do a thing about it,

    Attempts by TIME and others to blame the problem entirely on entitlements will fail. It’s not just NPR and PBS. There are dozens and dozens of other projects the govt has no business funding and all the RNC needs to do is make sure independents find a few they are infuriated by.

    The comparisons to Clinton-Gingrich and 95 are foolish. Besides the fact Ryan promised there won’t be a shutdown the media environment is totally different. Fox didn’t exist. Talk radio is 2x’s as large and the MSM 1/2 as large. Limbaugh has an audience larger that the big 3 networks. The MSM isn’t just watched less they have less credibility. It isn’t just Dan Rather but the fact everyone laughs at people like Evan Thomas, Jon Mechum and Joe Klein when they suggest the are objective. The internet is so powerful because most people use multiple sources knowing they can’t take what they read in Time as the full story. They know TIME advocates positions and for candidates and scrubs their reporting accordingly. There’s not going to be any hiding the fact Obama is increasing spending across the board and he will be hammered for it.

  • paulejb

    Obama punts on entitlement reform and Mr Calabresi wishes to convince us that it is smart politics. Perhaps some one should tell President Obama and Mr Calabresi that the option of voting present is not available to the chief executive.
    .
    Barack Obama does not have all that much political capital to save. Better he act boldly and try to create some political capital than just sit idly by as the situation deteriorates.

  • rdw56

    It would be incredibly stupid to put all his cards on the table at the beginning of that process.

    *****************************************
    This is simply wrong. Obama put a budget out there that increases spending across the board and generates a $1.5T deficit this year and over the long term has $1.5T in tax increases.

    That’s a disaster. He’s the quintessential tax and spend liberal and he just signalled he won’t change unless forced to do so. Not only will this be remembered in the Presidential races but he’s got a handful of Senators now deciding if they should run. Ben Nelson can’t even thing about defending or supporting something like this. This is a disaster for him and he’s only got a short window to decide. His opponents are going to be all over him. If he decides to drop out the longer he waits the worse for the DNC. Obama isn’t gong to win NB but that Senate seat and the one in VA are 48 and 49 for the GOP and chances are the new Senator will be very copnservative.

    In PA and OH the GOP just ran the table getting the governors seat, senate seat, every statewide office and 5 house seats in each state. The issue was spending and deficits. Casey in PA is a rather weak candidate who so far has supported all of Obama’s actions many of which are unpopular. Casey can’t possibly supporting funding NPR. In both states the Governors will be running aggressively against all of the budget pressure Obama is putting on them. Bob Casey is in a difficult spot

  • newfreedomblog

    Probably one of the best things that the NYT has come up with in years. Try out this budget cutter calculator, see what you have to do in order to fix our out of control deficit and debt problems.
    .
    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/11/13/weekinreview/deficits-graphic.html

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    Funny. Search on “defense” yields nothing.
    .
    Same with “war.”
    .
    Interesting.

  • newfreedomblog
  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    Getting deficits down is important both for the long-term viability of entitlement programs and for reassurance that the U.S. economy is solid and the government can pay its debts.
    .
    This is nonsense. Social Security is solid as a rock. Medicare and Medicaid will go as the US health care system goes. If the US continues following a path different from the rest of the OECD, with profitmaking middlemen raking off cash, while lowering the quality of care, then there will also be problems with Medicare.
    .
    And it is nonsense to once again raise up the confidence fairies. US debt it so reassuringly solid that people are clamoring for negative real interest rates.
    .
    Fixing the deficit is easy. Dump the Bush tax cuts, and return to the surplus that preceded his disastrous presidency. It has nothing to with entitlement reform.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    The problem with ‘repealing the laws of arithmetic’ is not new. Everybody wants the benefits of government spending and no one wants the outlays. The Republicans though, have turned dishonesty on the subject into an art form. Massimo writes a post about addressing Social security and rdw immediately starts whining about NPR. Massimo points out that in spite of rhetoric voters don’t actually want spending cuts when faced with specifics and rdw confidently ignores this simple reality.
    .
    The Republicans bear significant responsibility for the current deficit, not only by supporting tax cuts and unfunded medicare spending but by driving the economy off the cliff in the first place.
    .
    But again, dishonesty works, so dishonesty prevails.

  • paulejb

    Some possible headlines for the story of the 2012 budget.
    .
    Obama votes present with budget proposal.
    .
    Obama dithers while the deficit burgeons.
    .
    Obama once again comes up a day late and a dollar short.

    Think we will see these headlines in the MSM?

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/11/13/weekinreview/deficits-graphic.html?choices=hvl3400j

    Of course, I’d end all US occupations, cut defense still more, and be much more aggressive in broadening the tax base. Also, eliminate the corporate income tax, replacing the revenue with a tax on stock transactions.

  • newfreedomblog

    And Glenda the Good Witch comes out and says…
    .

    “Fixing the deficit is easy. Dump the Bush tax cuts, and return to the surplus that preceded his disastrous presidency. It has nothing to with entitlement reform.”

    .
    Calling bull-crap where bull crap is the meme for liberals.
    .
    Dumping the Bush Tax Cuts, now Obama’s Tax Cuts will only create enough revenue to solve less than 1/2 of our budget, deficit and debt problem. Period.
    .
    You should really play with the NYT calculator and find out for yourself, Glenda.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    Dishonesty is gonna continue to prevail if the folks like Massimo continue to enable it. Nobody calls republicans on their Big Lies. So they will keep telling them.
    .
    I’d love to see someone publish Boehner’s twitterfeed for the last six months, and then put that up against his actual spending positions.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    Oh, and via Ezra’s invaluable Wonk Book morning email,
    Kevin Drum.
    .
    SS is ALREADY means tested.
    .
    http://motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2011/02/means-testing-social-security?wpisrc=nl_wonk
    .
    There is an income transfer built in to the benefits.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    Should have included a link to Ezra.
    .
    http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/?wpisrc=nl_wonk
    .
    You can get it via email. Nothing better to find on your Berry in the morning!

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd
  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    And just out of curiosity, why the personal attacks in every message? What do you have against honest, polite discourse?
    .

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    How ’bout
    Obama challenges House Republicans to Put Up or Shut Up

  • paulejb

    jayackroyd@10,
    .
    “Social Security is as solid as a rock.”
    .
    Really?
    .
    http://www.socialsecurity.gov/OACT/TR/2010/tr2010.pdf

    See page 14 chart.

  • newfreedomblog

    Solid as a rock, huh?…..Not really
    .

    Conclusion
    .
    The ACA makes significant progress toward making Medicare financially viable. But while it is projected that the Medicare HI Trust Fund is adequately financed until 2029, and the Social Security OASI and DI Trust Funds are adequately financed until 2040 and 2018, respectively, the significant longer term financial imbalances of the programs still need to be addressed.
    .
    The sooner action is taken to address the long-run financial imbalances, the more reform options will be available, and the more time there will be to phase in changes so that those affected will have adequate time to prepare.”

    .
    http://www.ssa.gov/oact/trsum/index.html

  • paulejb

    Paul Dirks@12,
    .
    Obama Abdicates Responsibility on Debt and Deficits. Republicans to Take Charge.
    .

    Much more accurate.

  • np042

    There you go, bragging about the size of your audience again…

  • paulejb

    jayackroyd@13,
    .
    Means testing turns Social Security into a welfare program.
    .
    It’s just more of of Obama’s “ spread the wealth around.”

  • newfreedomblog

    Sorry jay, it is an automatic response when coming onto this site. Having been on here for now almost 3 years and attacked incessantly by liberals, it is now ingrained into my soul.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    and after those dates, SS operates indefinitely at about 75% of the planned benefit level, with no policy changes, indefinitely. 75% of the planned benefit level is about 25% above the current real benefit.
    .
    http://www.cepr.net/index.php/publications/reports/letter-to-senator-richard-shelby-on-social-security-comments
    .
    Unlike,say, defense, which has no dedicated revenue stream, and has not been prepaid by the beneficiaries.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    Never seen SZ do that. I don’t do that. Dirks doesn’t do that.
    .
    Even if it’s really true that “they started it,” is that really a justification? Is that how you respond in the real world?

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    Social security is already means tested. It’s built into the benefit formula. And, of course, because the benefit is based on payroll taxes paid, with a cap on the salary taxed, the top quintile pays into and gets the same benefit, essentially as the fourth quintile. There’s no money in the rich people’s benefits because there is no rich people’s benefits. Buffet’s check is the same as his secretary’s.

  • newfreedomblog

    You and SZ no, the rest, and especially Dirks, absolutely. And no, I do not do that in real-life public discussoins unless they come at me with all of their liberal talking points from the get-go, then I pull out the truth card and shut them down with the real facts.
    .

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    Also, what avedon said here:
    .
    http://www.eschatonblog.com/2011/02/savings.html
    .
    which is what Krugman said on the 12th:
    .
    http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/12/eat-the-future/

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    Why aren’t the facts enough? Do you really think it strengthens your presentation of the facts when you start off with name-calling and derision?

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    I mean you get that this is parody, right?
    .

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Section 7 – Revenue Bills, Legislative Process, Presidential Veto

    All bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with Amendments as on other Bills.

    Every Bill which shall have passed the House of Representatives and the Senate, shall, before it become a Law, be presented to the President of the United States……

  • freeinpa

    “Dishonesty is gonna continue to prevail if the folks like Massimo continue to enable it.”
    .
    ANd the Left is the only honest folks, right? See that is the biggest lie of all, what liberals tell themselves. The entire ObamCare bill was a lie. Obama in his interview with Bill O’Reilly said he did not raise taxes once in 2 years. Technically correct-it was closer to 20 times. Yesterday Obama said his budget plan does not add any more to the national debt.
    .
    “After a national election that demonstrated public outrage over Washington’s out-of-control spending and taxes, President Obama’s new budget is simply galling. Over the 10-year budget window, the president plans for Washington to extract $39 trillion in taxes and spend $46 trillion. The debt limit, currently $14.3 trillion, would have to grow to over $26 trillion. ”
    .
    And what is the whining here, that Republicans lie. Get a grip.

  • paulejb

    jayackroyd@13.3.
    .
    Social Security originally was sold to the public as an insurance program for retirement. You pay in while working, you get paid back when retired. If you deny benefits to people of wealth who paid into Social Security it is no longer a retirement program. It is re-distribution of wealth.

  • rdw56

    It’s not my audience but it is a critical factor. Clinton’s skill over Obama stands out in two areas. His ability to think 3 steps ahead and his ability to manipulate the media to appeal to specific audiences. Obama is a clown in comparison.

    The best example is Israel. Obama makes a speech to the Islamic utterly indifferent to the fact jews would be listening. For various reasons public support for Obama was less than 10% within a week and they turned him out. When Clinton was ‘negotiating’ with Israel and Arafat in the 90′s he was undermining Netanyahu but speaking directly to the Israeli people on why he was reasonable and BiBi was not. Obama never really tried but the made sure the opportunity was never there by his own actions.

    Clinton did the same thing with the govt shutdown but he then had advantages Obama does not have today. Were that to repeat Obama would get as much of the blame.

    Just look at what Massimo is trying to do here to see the desperation. He wants to limit the conversation to entitlements. He gets the increases in discretionary spending are dynamite. Massimo will not at anytime bring up NPR or PBS unless to respond if they’re making news and only to say, “peanuts”

    That’s just not going to work. $450M among $3.6T is peanuts but $450M is real money and funding TV and radio n a time of 300 stations is outrageous.

    Time could not smother the SBVs. They’re not smothering this either.

  • paulejb

    jayackroyd@14,
    .

    If the WIC program were eliminated tomorrow, would pregnant women and women with children starve?
    .
    Is there no government program that can be ended without bringing on the apocalypse?

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Actually, as long as the ioncome cap is in place, SS does redistribute wealth……upward.

  • freeinpa

    “Means testing turns Social Security into a welfare program.”
    .
    Uh Social Security is a welfare program. It is nothing more than a retirement fund masquerading as a welfare program. Notice how no one on the left makes any argument that this is a “safety net” which is the bill of goods that sold when initially enacted.

  • paulejb

    Paul Dirks@12.3,
    .
    “Congressional consideration of the federal budget begins once the the President of the United States submits a budget request…”

    Submitting an obviously unrealistic budget request is passing the buck.

  • rdw56

    Massimo writes a post about addressing Social security and rdw immediately starts whining about NPR

    ****************************************

    I am merely being political because Massimo is being political. He’s an advocate as is the Magazine. Massimo is trying to contain the discussion so the ‘tax and spend liberal’ thing doesn’t catch fire all over again.

    The fact is NPR is the perfect meal for this sort of thing. All protein no calories. NPR is a liberal radio network paid for by taxpayers. Conservatives and independents have their hair on fire over spending. This is the classic attempt by Massimo to say. “keep on moving, there’s nothing here, pay no attention”, It’s ONLY $450M.

    You have to appreciate how that sounds to someone on a farm in Iowa. It’s not only politics 101 there really is no reason for NPR or PBS to get a dime from taxpayers.

  • freeinpa

    “Is there no government program that can be ended without bringing on the apocalypse?”
    .
    No, every last dollar is absolutely necessary and there is not one bit of waste. At the very least it keeps government employees in a job with benefits the taxpayer doesn’t come close. Stop funding NPR a child catastrophe. How will Big Bird survive?

    There is a Demo Congresswoman from FL is telling how devastating cuts to cancer research would be.

    Every cut is draconian but it’s the Republicans who are not serious about budget cuts. Only tax increases will solve this. Someone needs to tell the left that if they took 100% of all income of those earning above 250,000 it still would not solve the debt and deficit problem.

  • freeinpa

    Obama like Paul Dirk wants talking points against the Republicans not solutions.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    Malnutrition in early childhood has a devastating effect on cognitive development. Just as simple cost/benefit analysis justifies mandatory vaccinations and mandatory schooling, even for kids with parents who don’t think it is necessary, simple cost/benefit analysis justifies programs to ensure proper childhood nutrition.
    .
    That’s the argument. Do you have a response?
    .
    In point of fact, as aimai pointed out in Balloon Juice comments a couple of days ago, it would probably be net beneficial for pre-teen kids to receive taxpayer-funded breakfast and lunch at school–that is the increase in tax revenues from a more productive working population would offset the expenditures made during the formative years.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Notice how no one on the left makes any argument that this is a “safety net”
    .
    Freep lies so reflexively, he’s conviced that it’s undetectable. People on ‘the left’ routinely point out that Social Security is a safety net, though they usually refer to the word ‘insurance’ to make the point. No one whatsoever suggests that Social Security should do anything but supplement retirement savings. But, everyone also acknowleges that everybody whose already paid in is entitled to the benefits they have earned. And that previous effort to raid the trust fund in order to privatize it would not only redirect finds into what we now know are absolutely $hitty investments but would starve the fund of what it needs to take care of the people it owes.
    .
    (It’s not by accident that people keep calling it an “entitlement program”)

  • rdw56

    Paul D,

    all well and good at least you concede Obama isn’t making any attempt to lead. I’d recommend you put yourself in the shoes of the average independent who is not partisan and doesn’t follow this on a day to day basis but understands spending is out of whack, (we know form the last election this was true then, and can only have gotten worse), and sees this offering from Obama.

    You just can’t do things like give NPR more money and the when it gets attention, and it will every day, Well, $450M is meaningless.

    Obama has to have that farmer in Iowa and Ohio and Indiana and he’s not going to get them with this position. TIME magazine won’t ever report Obama is giving NPR a raise but they will know.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    If you deny benefits to people of wealth who paid into Social Security it is no longer a retirement program
    .
    It’s a bad idea to change the deal for high income earners, yes. Is there anyone arguing on this thread for means testing?
    .
    Uh Social Security is a welfare program. It is nothing more than a retirement fund masquerading as a welfare program.
    .
    You could have made that argument more persuasively before the Reagan/Greenspan reforms. But since 1983 people have been paying in contributions well above the needs of pay as you go that will directly fund their benefits. Capping the contribution level dramatically reduces the redistributive aspect–although it is there. See Drum’s summary.

  • rohalz

    Social Security and Medicaid/Medicare are aspects of “entitlements” that need to be dealt with separately from budgets because of their complexity and size.

    However, there is one area of massive overspending that needs to be dealt with first if budgets are to be balanced. That is the defence budget which exceeds the rest of the world combined on that area. Its size indicates that it consists of two parts, defence and agression. Does the US wish to be the world’s modern colonial power?

    There is also the broad area called homeland security that is riddled with waste and fraud, contains a lot of unaccountable private sector contracting, and is substantial in cost.

    Sadly, nobody seems willing to tackle the real issues on the revenue shortfalls. The corporatocracy and the wealthy need to pay their “fair share” of income taxes. Corporate profits are growing but corporations pay less and less while increasing executive bonuses at the expense of the middle class.

  • rdw56

    Actually, as long as the ioncome cap is in place, SS does redistribute wealth……upward

    ************************************************

    You have this backwards. The cap is intended to limit redistribution. The liberal proposal is to remove the cap on the tax side so no matter how much you make tax is taken while capping the income side. This will have the effect of turning SS into a welfare program and that will in turn plant the seeds of destruction.

    right now with a few exceptions it’s viewed as a fair insurance program. You get out about what you put in, on average. Change that dynamic and you change how it’s viewed. You are playing with fire.

  • rdw56

    Does the US wish to be the world’s modern colonial power?

    ***********************************************************

    If you want to have a shot at coherence drop the old time lefly horsecrap and get real. As Colin Powell famously noted the only land the US has ever taken is land to bury our dead soldiers fighting in foreign lands for their liberty. Charges of colonialism are brain dead.

    Defense does have to be cut. Airheads won’t have any say in how that’s done.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    ANd the Left is the only honest folks, right?
    .
    Since Reagan, the GOP has engaged in the use of the Big Lie, with respect to the size of government and deficit spending. They claim to be opposed to large government and to large deficits, but consistently advocate and vote for policies that enlarge the government and increase the rate of debt accumulation.
    .
    Every Republican president. Every Republican House. Every Republican senate.
    .
    The interesting, current development is there are now freshmen in the House who don’t understand, or don’t want to continue, the strategy of the Big Lie. They actually do want to cut programs that are very popular, and even effective, because they believe in the mythology (and it IS mythology) that government can’t accomplish anything and therefore Big Government is inherently Bad.
    .
    This is a politically suicidal strategy. The Big Lie is a very effective political strategy, especially in an environment with a complicit, center-right media establishment. The Big Lie means that people get their Medicare scooters AND get to be against Big Government. Taking away the scooters won’t work out well for anyone who actually does so. So the strategy has been to blame Those Other People and Bad Guys in Washington, without actually cutting people’s benefits. The incoming freshmen either don’t understand, or don’t agree with this strategy, and want to take away the scooters.
    .
    We will see. At the outset, watching Mitch McConnell co opt Rand Paul, I thought we’d see the freshman taken in hand by the leadership. But it is beginning to look like Boehner is not up to the task.

  • paulejb

    jackaroyd@14.3.

    If school children are to be fed 2 meals a day by the school, doesn’t that make the WIC program redundant?

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    fighting in foreign lands for their liberty.
    .
    So when we’re fighting “For Liberty” in foreign lands, what happens to “The Liberty” of the people we’re killing?

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    No, of course not. Infant children don’t go to school.
    .
    But the note on feeding kids in school was a pie in sky side issue. The WIC program, as Avedon notes, more than pays for itself. That’s the point.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    But to expand on aimai’s argument, what she was implicitly saying in that post was that this is what rich kids get in school, if not breakfast, a hot lunch as part of the school day. They also have a rich assortment of extracurricular programs and activities. When parents can afford these features, they want them, and for good reasons.
    .
    The comment was made in the context of a Balloon Juice post lamenting school performance in Rochester. Someone said “throwing money at it won’t solve anything.” and so aimai described what throwing money at it would look like, suggested that it might well solve quite a bit, but that nobody had ever tried throwing money at education for urban kids in the same way rich parents throw money at their kids.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    13.9
    .
    Yes, that’s a good point. If the cap were dropped, then additional benefit levels would have to be added, I think. If they were kept in line with the current inherent redistribution, then the program would be strengthened.
    .
    But, really, it doesn’t need strengthening. It’s set for farther out than we can reliably project. Leave it alone, and address the real problems, which are mostly related to a profound degree of corruption.

  • rdw56

    People who attack the USA don’t get liberty. They get Petraeus.

    In the case of Iraq of course the people also got a constitution, elections and self-rule. Last I read we haven’t annexed any of Iraq.

    We have a long history in this regard. IN fact I am sure you and I agree if we didn’t fight for liberty in 1944 the French would be speaking either German or Russian now. But they’re not are they? And we didn’t colonize France now did we?

    BTW: might want to pick up GWBs book. Nice little story explaining why the former French President didn’t much care for George. At the 1st G-8 meeting he made some snide remark about US colonialism in Africa. Pretty rich for someone in France to be pissing on anyone else about Colonialism in Africa no???

    George didn’t let it pass. Despite having already spoken he asked Blair who was scheduled to follow if he could have a minute and then proceeded to remind the players of European- African history . It wasn’t long after that in one of the French Colonies one of their military jets was shot down. They of course had to respond but had to move troops into place. When asked to ‘borrow’ a C-130 Chirac was told to take a hike.

    Before you respond by telling me the French didn’t help us in Iraq allow me to quote Patton, “I’d rather have a German division in front of me than a French division behind me”.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    Once again, what is really, really interesting, and apparently in the sphere of deviance, is why we are not having heart-felt debates about the need to occupy Okinowa, and just what those SLBMs are for, anyway.
    .
    Not to mention tons of money for pornoscreens and gategroping.

  • freeinpa

    “Freep lies so reflexively, he’s conviced that it’s undetectable. People on ‘the left’ routinely point out that Social Security is a safety net”
    .
    See you are lying to yourself AGAIN!

  • afguy

    People who attack the USA don’t get liberty. They get Petraeus.
    .
    So, by definition, anyone we kill MUST have attacked us first, even those we admit were mistakes or “collateral damage”?
    .
    Those wedding parties where we take out not only the target but all of the guests and neighbors?
    .
    The rest just seems to be a lot of “if you aren’t with us, you’re against us” background noise.

  • freeinpa

    Step by step we have the government feeding children, telling parents what they can and can’t give thier children,supply housing, mandating health care, providing free education- – - but don’t call those efforts socialism

  • afguy

    rdw,
    .
    I have to admit that you’re more articulate than most of the other RW contingent here, but I don’t think I’ve seen anyone take as much obvious relish in killing and war for its own sake as you do.

  • rdw56

    another cool story on GWB and our ‘allies’. After the tidal wave in Indonesia we had a repeat of what ALWAYS happens with natural disasters. The USA is there 1st with the most and often alone. Indonesia was no exception and this time we had video to prove it. Japan, india, Australia and others showed up in small numbers but it was a USA operation for weeks. The UN was there quickly with a political team meeting in a 5-star hotel in the capital to direct aid. Of course they had nothing to direct so they just had meetings. Some clown from Holland, I think, in the UN heriarchy made the statement that Americans are stingy.

    Did not go over well. Fox played it 24/7 along with the video of USA ships working 24/7 in rescue operations with no UN or French ships in sight. At one point the UN decided to head toward the damaged area to take ‘control’ of the operations. GWB was having none of that. They actually planned on putting “UN” labels on USA supplies. When they showed up at the USA command ship with ‘orders’ to take control of all operations they were informed that was not an option and to not interfere with US operations in any way. They were escorted off the ship.

    Youtube really screws over ABC. They would never show the UN trashing Americans. Now we know. A few months later there were massive flood in Pakistan. Who delivered 98% of the relief supplies? The Europeans? Ya think? The UN? Ya think?

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    So you have no comment on the policy aspects? Just opposition in principle to government action? Any government policy, regardless of effectiveness is on the path to socialism, and hence to be rejected?
    .
    Can you describe what the US would look like under your benevolent dictatorship?

  • afguy

    That word “socialism” scares you more than the thought of anyone suffering, doesn’t it, free?
    .
    That, and the thought that someone might be getting something YOU don’t think they deserve, using some of YOUR money.
    .
    I’m going to go out on a limb and venture that you’re not a really religious or moral person; otherwise, the possibility of going into any sort of “judgment” with the mindset you show should be truly terrifying.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    It isn’t socialism in any case. That’s a Humpty Dumpty use of the word. It could be that you don’t like the social democracies, as exemplified in Europe, although by measures of overall welfare of the citizenry, those systems look a lot better than the mixed economy as it currently operates in the US.
    .
    But nobody is proposing state ownership of the means of production as a stepping stone to true communism. The debate is over the degree to which expenditures that are of collective benefit should be funded collectively. There is no disagreement that there are some such expenditures; even libertarians are collectivists. The question is what activities should be funded and administered collectively.
    .
    For example, there is no state without a currency.

  • newfreedomblog

    And they call Republicans, like Ron Paul, “isolationists”
    .
    Hmmmmm

  • rdw56

    don’t think I’ve seen anyone take as much obvious relish in killing

    *********************************************

    I don’t relish killing. We lost 5,000 of our own and the wounded and disruption are similarly awful. That said this is the world we live in. We lost 3,000 on 9/11. If they want to kill us then we have no choice but to exterminate them 1st. What I am impressed by is the skill and professionalism with which we do so. I do celebrate the exceptionalism of the American Soldier and the defense establishment with supports them and the capitalist system which supports the defense establishment. I also relish debating airheads using terms like American colonialism. It’s the definition of oxymoron. It might be insulting if it wasn’t so friggin stupid.

    Also note there’s an age thing. I grew up in the 60′s and 70′s when a lot of this lefty blame america 1st crap was all the rage. Castro and Che were icons and during the cold war, mostly after 68, the left started supporting communism and socialism while attacking capitalism. This is why to my generation Reagan is now such an icon and Castro such a turd. It’s very nice to be living in the age of Reagan. If you are under the age of 40 you can’t appreciate how much things have changed. In the 60′s and 70′s the elitists really did run the show. Govt was littered with academics. There are some but they don’t enjoy anywhere near the esteem of 30 years ago.

    So there is a level of gratitude with how things evolved. This is nothing as the liberal establishment of 1970 envisioned. As late as 79 liberal wise men were writing that Reagan was unelectable because as a conservative he was too extreme. Look where we are.

  • paulejb

    jayackroyd@16,
    .
    Not a fan of pornoscreens or gategroping but some one has to keep the Islamic fanatics from blowing us up as we fly. My choice would be less groping grandma and more profiling of Muslim men in their 20s and 30s.

  • newfreedomblog

    “The question is what activities should be funded and administered collectively.”

    .
    Now the meat and potatoes of the argument.
    .
    Collectivism versus Individual Responsibility. Or, social justice versus equal justice. Or Collective Salvation versus Individual Salvation.
    .
    As socialism and communism have proven to be utter failures, so too will the Socialist Democracies which have been implemented in Europe fall. The “save the poor people from themselves” meme from the left will not fix or cure the simple fact that if you have a large group of people who are un-willing to work for their daily allotment of bread, and are dependent upon the government to feed and cloth them, the system is unsustainable over the long haul.
    .
    American exceptionalism began when industrious folks came to this country to build a life for themselves and their families. To take their hardwork, and make something of themselves and build some wealth. Prior to that, they were mere serfs in a feudal system which kept a few at the top in luxury while the rest nearly starved to death.
    .
    Spreading the wealth Obama-style discourages hardwork, and penalizes those who do.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    I agree with Ron Paul on foreign policy. I thought he made mincemeat out of Tim Russert on his Christmas week, Presidential candidate MTP appearance.
    .
    16.2
    .
    I’d really prefer you indulge in your baseless fears at home, and not impose them on me, and others.
    .
    Anyone who is acquainted with the relevant security literature is aware that profiling reduces the effectiveness of any security measure. Profiling tells the bad guys who to use to operate their attack. This is true even if you try to keep the profile secret–the bad guys can infer the nature of the profile by repeated test attempts.
    .
    if you are actually interested in these issues, i discuss them with an actual security expert, Bruce Schneier and a civil aviator, James Fallows, here:
    .
    http://bit.ly/ik06Wm

  • paulejb

    afguy@14.9,
    .
    “…whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.”

    This was not an invitation to create a government program using other people’s money.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    Oh, and I call myself an isolationist…

  • afguy

    I don’t relish killing. We lost 5,000 of our own and the wounded and disruption are similarly awful. That said this is the world we live in. If they want to kill us then we have no choice but to exterminate them 1st. What I am impressed by is the skill and professionalism with which we do so.
    .
    Yep, there’s the usual “escape clause”… the world we live in. You say you don’t admire killing, just the skill and professionalism with which it’s done. Interesting…. and more than a little scary.
    .
    Exterminate WHO? Who’s THEM? Which geographic area do we hit in order to make sure we’re killing just “them”? The attackers were mostly Saudi. Does retribution for American losses of life on 9/11 take a back seat to “petro-politics”?
    .
    Or is that just one of those minor details that we shouldn’t concern ourselves with?

  • paulejb

    jayackroyd@16.3,
    .
    Adapt and overcome.

    If jihadists begin using Swedish bikini models in their attacks, include them in the profiling.

    I will gladly volunteer to do the body search.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    As socialism and communism have proven to be utter failures, so too will the Socialist Democracies which have been implemented in Europe fall. The “save the poor people from themselves” meme from the left will not fix or cure the simple fact that if you have a large group of people who are un-willing to work for their daily allotment of bread, and are dependent upon the government to feed and cloth them, the system is unsustainable over the long haul.

    .
    This is false to fact. There are no socialist democracies in Europe. In fact, it is hard to square socialism with democracy.
    .
    The save the poor people from themselves meme is a canard. Nobody advocates that.
    .
    The claim of government dependence is false to fact; people who use social welfare services during their working years use them sporadically and for short spans of time. Pretty much everybody would rather have a job.
    .
    So, what collective activities do you think the state should rightly engage in?

  • afguy

    Didn’t say it was. paulie, but, on the other hand, when did the Almighty designate you as the spokesmen for what He did and did not intend?
    .
    Are YOU comfortable telling everyone else (without a direct conversation or transcript of same to provide) what He REALLY meant?

  • paulejb

    afguy@15.8,
    .
    Drill baby, drill!
    .
    Let’s produce our own oil domestically and let the Saudis wither on the vine.
    .
    That should appeal to jayackroyds isolationism.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    Domestic reserves are too small. You’d have to follow Brazil if you want domestic energy independence and also automobiles.
    .
    But isolationists can be free traders. In fact, they go together. Isolationism doesn’t equal autarky.

  • afguy

    You really think there’s enough cheap oil available here to replace what the Saudis provide?
    .
    As for “letting them wither on the vine” rather than bombing the crap out of them, why not use the same rationale with those countries we invaded and destroyed?
    .
    Maybe because we considered it a “low risk” type of warfare?

  • newfreedomblog

    You are kidding, right? Generational welfare? A few houses up the road from me I can cite a family now into it’s third generation of welfare recipients. None of them have worked a day in their life.
    .
    What collective actions by the government would I support?
    .
    Social security is fine with me so long as our representatives can avoid stealing from it all of the time to pay for pet projects. We could institute a project like China has where old people are taken care of by the younger generations thereby making Nursing Homes obsolete.
    .
    Helping those who are either mentally or physically unable to take care of themselves any longer, that is fine with me too.
    .
    Providing for our defense and security is job #1 of the government.
    .
    Setting up the money for purposeful projects, such as electrical generation TVA and Hoover Dam come to mind. NIH is good. Government as a watch-dog, but not to the point of curbing or inhibiting free markets to thrive. IE: Kill most of the government regulations which screw up our lives rather than enhance them.
    .
    The rest, totally abolish it.
    .

  • pintortwo

    Jay, the proper term is Noble Lie, not Big Lie. Irving Kristol, the godfather of neo-conservatism if you will, is considered a practitioner:
    .
    “There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people. There are truths appropriate for children; truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly educated adults, and the notion that there should be one set of truths available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy. It doesn’t work.”
    - Irving Kristol (link)
    .
    As you may know, his work not only the foundation for the PNAC, but Mr Kristol is considered a mentor and inspiration for today’s neocons and republican admirers- including his son Bill, the Kagens, Krauthammer, Boot, etc; political players such as Cheney, Rummy, Sheunemann, Bolton, McCain, Lieberman and his many fans on the Hill; publications like the Weekly Standard, Nat’l Review, the Blaze…; and think-tanks such as the American Enterprise Institute.
    .
    That’s why I have a tough time believing anything any of them say– I don’t want to try to figure out when they’re accurate and when they are lying to me for my own good. I’d rather ignore them.

  • pintortwo

    The American Enterprise Institute’s Annual Irving Kristol Award:
    .
    “The yearly award is presented at the Institute’s annual dinner to an individual, selected by the AEI Council of Academic Advisers, who has made exceptional intellectual or practical contributions to improved government policy, social welfare, or political understanding.
    .
    AEI’s largest event is its annual dinner, held each year in Washington, D.C. Up to two thousand guests gather for the gala…”

    .
    Past recipients include Charles Krauthammer and Gen Petraeus. This award “replaces the Francis Boyer Award (as) AEI’s highest annual award”. Past Boyer Award winners include Antonin Scalia, Dick Cheney, George Will, Alan Greenspan, Michael Novak and Clarence Thomas. -link
    .
    Perhaps we should consider the nobility of their lies.

  • rdw56

    The attackers were mostly Saudi.

    ***************************************************

    True. Where were they trained? Who supported them? Who funded them? Who assisted them?

    The reason GWB took the taliban out was to send a message. Why do you think they put that clip of Saddam being treated like a farm animal?

    I don’t think there’s any question if Moamar finds out someone under his command is plotting to attack the USA he’ll have them killed.

  • afguy

    For the record, I’m Christian but not Catholic or Southern Baptist.
    .
    I’ll listen to their viewpoints, but neither the Pope nor Richard Land hold any sway over my opinions on a variety of subjects, including religious or moral beliefs.
    .
    I’ll listen to a logical explanation of what your opinion is, just as I listen to the atheists and agnostics here in the Swamp. I don’t agree with them all of the time, esp. about religion, just as I don’t agree with you all the time either, esp. on religion.
    .
    Just don try to tell me what it is I believe (or SHOULD believe) because you have some grand insight.
    .
    You aren’t me.

  • rdw56

    Does retribution for American losses of life on 9/11 take a back seat to “petro-politics”?
    .
    Or is that just one of those minor details that we shouldn’t concern ourselves with?

    ***********************************************

    It wasn’t retribution. It was purely educational for the benefit of the world community. Here’s what happens if you attack America.

    The petro thing was always nonsense. That’s some relic of the marxist age. Brazil has an ocean of oil off it’s coast as does west africa, the north sea gulf off mexico, off alaska and we have major natural gas fields now accessible in the USA. plus demand is down since 2000 and exports are down. As a percent of GDP OIl is down sharply.

    Also note our auto fleet and appliances are constantly replaced with more efficient models.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    Some history
    .
    http://www.ssa.gov/history/reports/gspan8.html
    ,
    Ronald Reagan saving social security,

  • afguy

    I don’t think there’s any question if Moamar finds out someone under his command is plotting to attack the USA he’ll have them killed.
    .
    Assuming they’d react like we would, aren’t you? Seems to be that the bombing and humiliation hasn’t inhibited ANYTHING. We’ve just more or less guaranteed a fresh generation of recruits.
    .
    Would THAT be the same Taliban we supported against the Soviets?
    .
    I think that it would merely encourage him to cover his tracks a little better, insuring that no overt signs of Libyan “fingerprints” were on the act. Given that our name is now mud in that part of the world, I doubt any plans would be permanently disrupted.
    .
    Remember, they have something that we don’t have and often don’t seem to comprehend – patience. They don’t have to have a major event every year, just enough to keep us chasing our tails and bleeding our treasury in perpetual warfighting against them.

  • paulejb

    afguy@14.14,
    .
    I don’t contend that I have a direct line to the Lord, afguy. I merely accept the plain language lessons of his teachings. He is telling each of us about our individual responsibility for the less fortunate. There is no mention of government action.

  • afguy

    It wasn’t retribution. It was purely educational for the benefit of the world community. Here’s what happens if you attack America.
    .
    Oh, good, a couple of hundred thousand innocent people killed from a country that didn’t attack us as an educational exercise to those that did.
    .
    I’m sure they’re terrified of the (non)punishment.
    .
    And I’m sure our “beacon” of liberty is shining brighter than ever.

  • rdw56

    Assuming they’d react like we would, aren’t you? Seems to be that the bombing and humiliation hasn’t inhibited ANYTHING. We’ve just more or less guaranteed a fresh generation of recruits.

    *****************************************

    Liberal porn.

    Terror leaders are no interested in dying. They’re interested in leading. Dying is for donkeys. Abbas gets it. Fatah gets it. They order a suicide bombing WB airspace will be loaded with missiles looking for them. Sharon took out 3 heads of Fatah in 6 weeks and all of a sudden no one wanted the job. Go figure! Flash forward to 2008 and BiBi is in a war in Gaza and what does Fatah do? They help Israel. I’m thinking the leaders of Fatah are thinking they’re allergic to missiles.

    The ONLY thing that guarantees fresh recruits is success. If you give a terrorist a reward for killing they’ll keep killing. The message of Osama has been total failure. He’s living in a cave if he’s alive and most of the leadership of the taliban and al qaeda has been shredded. Al Qaeda is killed on sight in all arab nations and if captured alive tortured and then killed.

    Time recently visited Israel and were astonished to find out average israeli’s bored by the Obama peace talks. The were not paying any attention knowing it was a waste. But the real shocker is they were safe and prosperous. They were not alarmed. They know Abbas got the message he dies 1st as did the entire military wing of hamas in Gaza. With a 150 -1 kill ratio it was total humiliation. So much for creating more terrorists.

    They’ll attack Israel if there’s a political advantage. If all their going to do is die they won’t.

  • afguy

    Liberal porn.
    .
    Terror leaders are no interested in dying.

    .
    Interesting… questioning unnecessary killing is “liberal porn”…
    .
    So you’re saying that the 200k we killed were all “terrorist leaders”?
    .
    Talking to you is interesting, rdw… it’s not often one can see the RW pathology toward warfare and killing laid out and defended in such chilling, dispassionate language.
    .
    And I see you’re back on the killing stats again…

    Read more: http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2011/02/15/the-smart-politics-of-punting-on-entitlements/#ixzz1E8rqqGyu

  • afguy

    Then, all I can say is, when the time comes, feel free to “defend” your actions and moral position using exactly the same arguments you’ve advanced here.
    .
    At that point, it’s just going to be between you and Him. I highly doubt that your political party is going to hold a lot of influence regarding any moral shadings as to your actions here on this “blue marble”.
    .
    It’s NOT going to be just about opposition to abortion and tithing and how many times you show up for Mass.
    .
    He’s not going to be a “single issue” Judge. You’re gonna have to bring the whole package with you. I imagine “love for your fellow man” will be a hot topic of discussion.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0254/is_n1_v54/ai_16617438/
    .
    Although 25 to 30 million people lived below poverty at any time during most of the 1980s, a much smaller number were poor for prolonged periods. While as many as one person in four experiences a period of poverty during any decade (Corcoran et al., 1985); for most it is a brief experience precipitated by divorce, illness, or job loss. Nevertheless, a significant minority, variously estimated at between 4 and 12 million people, remain poor for long periods, sometimes a lifetime (Duncan, 1987; Nathan, 1988; Ruggles and Marton, 1986; Sawhill, 1988). These are labelled the “underclass”, “hard-core poor”, or the “chronically welfare dependent (GAO, i.e. General Accounting Office, 1990).”
    .
    That’s a wide range, but that’s the magnitude we are talking about.
    .
    Previously, the government has tried to separate out the deserving (physically or mentally incapacitated) from the undeserving (physically and mentally able to work). This is expensive and error-prone. The current solution, the EITC and food stamps as the core programs, doesn’t try to make this distinction. The argument is that the harm done in trying to exclude the undeserving is greater than the expense of having people on the dole who could, in principle, be off it.
    .
    You would eliminate these programs?
    ,
    More on the rest of the post after I relocate myself.

  • newfreedomblog

    For my friend, jay.
    .

    “The most common form of welfare payment has been through a program called Aid to Families With Dependent Children (AFDC). Originally designed to help children whose fathers had died, AFDC evolved into the main source of regular income for millions of poor American families. Certain aspects of the American welfare system — especially AFDC payments — came under criticism in the 1980s and 1990s, and the system itself became an issue in national elections. In his 1992 presidential campaign, for example, then-Governor Bill Clinton promised to “end welfare as we know it.” The charge that social programs tend to trap the poor in dependency led to the 1996 redesign of certain federal programs. A new law overhauled welfare by replacing AFDC with state-run assistance programs financed by federal grants (TANF- Temporary Assistance for Needy Families).
    .
    The law also limits lifetime welfare assistance to five years, requires most able-bodied adults to work after two years on welfare, eliminates welfare benefits for legal immigrants who have not become U.S. citizens, and limits food stamps to a period of three months unless the recipients are working. In 2008, over 50 million Americans received nearly $614 billion in Social Security benefits.
    .
    The total cost of all federal assistance programs — including Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and various welfare programs — accounts for nearly one-half of all money spent by the federal government. That is a doubling of the percentage that obtained in the 1960s.

    .
    http://usa.usembassy.de/society-socialsecurity.htm

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    14.19
    .
    Gotta say I am getting confused. You’re okay with social security, which has been self-funded since the Reagan/Greenspan reforms. Clinton eliminated the program (AFDC) associated with “generational welfare” and replaced it with a program that expressly prohibits a lifetime on the dole.
    .
    The health care system in the US is in disastrous shape, so Medicare and Medicaid are as well.
    .
    But overall, I don’t see what you are so upset about.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    The rest, totally abolish it.
    .
    Like?
    .
    It’s easy to say stuff like that.
    .
    Abolish the FDA? NTSB? Dept of commerce? (whoops. Census is in the constitution). Energy dept? USDA? ATB? SEC? US Postal Service? FEMA?
    .
    Yesterday in the wonkbook Ezra remarked that most of the government in dollar terms, at this point, is insurance of one kind or another. That’s an interesting perspective.
    .
    But I really don’t see how you are all that different from the brethren you call socialists.
    .

  • paulejb

    afguy@14.17,
    .
    My conscience is clear. I never believed that “love thy neighbor” meant creating another government subsidy.
    .
    I very much doubt that supporting government handouts of other people’s money substitutes for personal sacrifices. Voting the straight Democrat ticket does not earn you free admission to heaven.

  • http://hipparchia2.wordpress.com hipparchia2

    You are correct in saying that Obama was smart to “punt” on cutting “entitlement” spending, but this:

    “Getting deficits down is important both for the long-term viability of entitlement programs and for reassurance that the U.S. economy is solid and the government can pay its debts.”

    is just plain silly.

    The idea that the US government must budget its money in the same way that indivduals nd houholds must budget their money is a holdover from the days when we on the gold standard. If you recall your Ameican history or even if you don’t), FDR tokk the county partially off the gold standard during the Depression, and Richard Nixon took us completely off the gold standard in (iirc) 1971.

    We have been a modern (fiat currency) economy ever since then. You can begin learning more about this here:

    http://www.correntewire.com/mmtfiscal_sustainability_conference

    Meanwhile, whether using the gold standard or fiat currency, if the private sector is not spending enough money to create good jobs for the rest of us, then the government has to do that spending — IF we want to have a broadly prosperous economy. If we want to become just another third world banana republic, then sure, by all means, let’s cut federal spending even more than we already have.

  • afguy

    And where did you get the idea that I vote straight “D”, paulie? Another of those assumptions you make because we don’t agree and you feel the need to account for the difference somehow?
    .
    You really need to understand that a lot of us think that NEITHER party has a lock on the answers for the country at the moment.
    .
    Right now, we’re just looking for something from the Tea Party beyond “I want to keep what’s mine – ALL of it. You can’t have any.”
    .
    As for the clear conscience, just remember that THAT also, is no guarantee. I can believe that 2+2=5 with a clear conscience too – doesn’t make it right.
    .
    I could convince myself that we didn’t cheat the Indians out of their land over history and re-write the history books accordingly. Doesn’t change the actual history -just the books.
    .
    I’d be careful of the “my conscience is clear” bromide. We need to question our own beliefs from time-to-time.

  • rdw56

    Interesting… questioning unnecessary killing is “liberal porn”…
    .
    *********************************

    You are twisting things but not well. Necessary and accidental are two different things. I believe there is a story out there Clinton had a shot at Osama in the late 90′s but feared a couple/extra few more than Osama might have been killed. In hindsight a bad decision.

    A more interesting example are several ‘hits’ Sharon orders on Fatah leaders. The rule had been if they are traveling with family you can’t take them out because their wives and drivers are innocents. Not in 2001. If Sharon knew a Fatah leader was traveling anywhere with a car full of family and another full of bodyguards both cars were taken out. Once Fatah understood the policy they decided terrorism wasn’t such a good idea after all. 10 years later, still not a good idea.

  • afguy

    So intentional killing of innocents is OK, but accidental is bad?
    .
    Sounds like you’re saying that the only real crime is the one of missing the target.
    .
    I’m not even going to bring the moral angle into this, because I have the distinct impression that trying to talk about that with you would be like discussing the evils of cannibalism with Hannibal Lecter.

  • rdw56

    15.20

    So intentional killing of innocents is OK

    ***************************************

    At no point is there a claim the killing of innocents is OK. Although your silence on suicide bombings inside Israel suggest you think it is OK.

    I only bother for sport. Islamic terrorism has been a total disaster. They can attack Europe successfully. The USA will kick the snot of them.

  • afguy

    Necessary and accidental are two different things.
    .
    Care to elaborate on that statement, then, as the discussion was about a concern for “unnecessary killings”? We were talking about taking out numbers of “innocents” to teach others in the world a lesson.
    .
    And, per your reply, where did I say that I found suicide bombings in Israel to be OK?
    .
    A little “redirection” there?

  • rdw56

    And, per your reply, where did I say that I found suicide bombings in Israel to be OK?

    *******************************************

    You give the game away when you complain about GWB fatality actions rather than the deaths of Jews. The people who worry about the deaths of innocent Palestinians are strangely silent on Jewish deaths. As it stands right now we know the Palestinians tried to kill innocents while Jews protect them. We know too much. The MSM is toast on Israel.

  • paulejb

    afguy@14.22,
    .
    I do not doubt that you have to re-examine your beliefs from time to time. Reality has a habit of catching up with you when you least expect it.
    .
    You may also happily believe that 2 + 2 = 5. But when you attempt to put it onto practice, you will get the same kind of results that Obama got with his stimulus program.
    .
    I don’t know whether you vote straight D or not. It hardly matters, if the ideology that you support is the same old tired nostrums about the government being the soluition to all problems.

  • afguy

    tired nostrums about the government being the soluition to all problems.
    .
    Paulie,
    .
    The ONLY people who I hear saying that liberals believe that are RW con men like yourself. We certainly don’t.
    .
    Are you saying that you NEVER re-evaluate your beliefs when confronted with different information?
    .
    I believe that’s called being closed-minded.

  • afguy

    rdw, the ONLY one who has mentioned GWB in this conversation is YOU – to defend his actions, which YOU brought up. I’ve mentioned NO names whatsoever.
    .
    Nice projection. Your positive views on Israeli actions in any randomly-selected action are well-known.
    .
    Suicide bombers who target innocents are equally reprehensible.

  • rdw56

    Suicide bombers who target innocents are equally reprehensible.

    ***********************************************

    suicide bombers who target children are equal to soldiers who try to avoid but still by accident or error kill inadvertly?

    That’s a smear and a rather dumb one. Further, it’s clear you have no support. Americans by huge majorities support the military and Israel versus the MSM and liberals.

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