In the Arena

The Other Red Meat

While the eyes of the world have been on Egypt the past few days–congratulations to the heroes of Tahrir Square!–my eyes have been fixed on the parade of Republican presidential hopefuls selling their wares at the Conservative Political Action Conference. Their speeches have ranged from the substantive (Mitch Daniels, who courageously offered zero red meat to the crowd, just a grown-up exposition of what it would actually take to cut the deficit) to the slickly effective (Mitt Romney–although he never seems able to really rouse a Republican audience), to the eminently forgettable (John Thune), to reality television (Donald Trump).

I’m going to deal more with the substantive argument Daniels made in my print column this week, but there are two other aspects of the meeting I’d like to deal with here:

Foreign Policy: It has been widely noted that the would-be Presidents had little or nothing to say about the events in Egypt. They also had little or nothing to say about the war in Afghanistan (with the exception of Ron Paul’s well-known isolationism, a weird temptation for a party that was known for its isolationism until World War II). There were some lame attempts at criticizing Obama, which has become so hard to do that even Dick Cheney seems to be abstaining these days. The lamest was the criticism of Obama’s unwillingness to be bombastic when the Green Revolution took to the streets in Iran. I’ve explained, more than a few times, why this was prudent: Had Obama associated himself more vehemently with the protesters, the disgraceful regime would have felt free to inflict itself more vehemently on them. It was also rather hilarious, in this context, to watch Minnesota Governor Tim Pawlenty say that the only language bullies understand is strength, that you have to stand up strong against terrorists: I couldn’t help remembering–this being the Reagan centennial and all–that Reagan, as president, sold arms to Ayatullah Khomeini, paid ransom to the Lebanese terrorists and came within a whisker of making a deal with the Evil Empire to abolish all nuclear weapons. Mr. Pawlenty–and also Messrs. Romney and Santorum–tear down this artifice!

Ron Paul’s Offer: Paul is, as we know, a fresh voice and an independent thinker. (His son, Rand, gave a substantive exposition of the libertarian dogma the day before.) He opened his speech with an attack on the Patriot Act. He blasted the war in Afghanistan. His supporters–a very sizeable chunk of the crowd–cheered these positions, to the dismay of more traditional conservatives in the throng. But make no mistake, Paul’s libertarianism is as extreme a form of conservatism as there can be. And in the conclusion of his speech, he proposed the following offer to his youthful supporters, which I believe cuts right to the heart of the difference between liberals and conservatives: “Would you consider a deal where you agree to opt out of the system entirely? You would pay a flat 10% tax for the rest of your lives, but in return you would agree to not ask the government for anything?”

This, of course, seemed a great deal to his young, educated supporters. It would have been a great deal for, say, me. I’ve had a charmed life, a successful career. I’ve been healthy, saved my money for retirement. I”ve never been fired or laid off. The Republicans believe that most people are like me. We can do this ourselves. And, who knows, they may be right.

But there were an awful lot of people–even Ivy League graduates like me–for whom the deal would be a nightmare. Say you’re an entrepreneur–a hero of the Republican party–and your business collapses, or your spouse has a wasting, chronic disease that the insurance companies in Ron Paul’s radical free enterprise system refuse to cover: how do you survive? Or, for less lucky people than Ivy leaguers: what happens if you work hard your whole life and your job gets sent to China? Or your company can’t pay the pension you were counting on?  Or you work in a non-union job without a pension or health care plan? What happens if free market predators–people Ron Paul would never regulate–create a fraudulent market in mortgages which crashes and destroys the value of your home, which you were hoping to use to pay for your retirement?

What happens if everyone pays in only 10% and climate change turns out to be a real problem–one that we’ve not had the resources to plan for? Or if there’s a new disease for which we need a collective response, but don’t have the government structure to face?

Some liberals are afflicted by the reverse of Paul’s conceit–they assume that a majority of people can’t make intelligent choices for themselves, that parents can’t chose the best school for their kids, that the elderly can’t choose the best health plan, that government should regulate risk-taking of any sort, that firing employees should be highly regulated (as in Europe). This can be a safer model–or a more disastrous one, if it goes so far as to crush enterprise.

The answer lies in a phrase that conservatives are loathe to use: the consent of the governed. At CPAC, speaker after speaker invoked the “endowed by their creator” phrase of the Declaration of Independence. Paul Ryan called it “natural law.” And it is true that the founders believed that there were certain inalienable rights–life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness. But they also believed, in order to form a more perfect union, that the enumeration of those rights would be established in a process where the ultimate decisions were by made by democratic vote, by the consent of the governed. In our country, the governed have consented to the establishment of an old-age pension plan called Social Security. They have consented to Medicare and Medicaid. They have consented to have an FDA and EPA and SEC and OSHA and the IRS. I’m not saying that any of the above can’t be modified and improved–they can be. What I am saying is that the American people, over time, have rejected Ron Paul’s 10% offer because it places too much emphasis on individual rights and too little on the common good. The bright line between those competing goals is the essence of our political discourse; it’s an honest argument–and I must say, Ron Paul presents his side fearlessly and with impressive intellectual integrity. But the building of a social safety net isn’tcreeping socialism. It’s ground-zero democracy.

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  • afguy

    Some liberals are afflicted by the reverse of Paul’s conceit–they assume that a majority of people can’t make intelligent choices for themselves, that parents can’t chose the best school for their kids, that the elderly can’t choose the best health plan, that government should regulate risk-taking of any sort, that firing employees should be highly regulated (as in Europe). This can be a safer model–or a more disastrous one, if it goes so far as to crush enterprise.
    .
    You know, Joe, I read this and I don’t know ANYONE described as a liberal who believes what you ascribed here, extreme or not.
    .
    Is this some more of that “false equlivalency” so that we can all tack to the center?

  • afguy

    There are some self-described liberals I know that would subscribe to SOME of the items you described above, but ALL of them?
    .
    H3ll, NO!!
    .
    And that especially goes for the comment about regulating risk-taking of any sort. Nice straw man.
    .
    You’re reaching. A lot.

  • newfreedomblog

    Ladies and Gentlemen, meet the next Republican Nominee for President of the United States of America
    .

    “During the 30-minute address that closed the second day of the Conservative Political Action Convention, Daniels served up a speech that was heavy on substance and even, at times, critical of what he called the “venomous, petty, often ad hominem political discourse of the day.”
    .
    Though he’s been criticized by some on the right for comments he made last summer suggesting that social issues should take a back-seat while the country deals with its fiscal woes, he made no mention of issues like abortion, same-sex marriage or guns. What he did do, however, was envision a Republican Party that appealed to a broader electorate.
    .
    “We will need people who never tune in to Rush or Glenn or Laura or Sean,” he said, referring to the popular conservative media personalities. “Who surf past CSPAN to get to SportsCenter.”

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    You would pay a flat 10% tax for the rest of your lives, but in return you would agree to not ask the government for anything?”

    I think your missing the boat on what Libertarians don’t relize the government does for them. Try this on.

    What if you enter into a contract to buy a house and the seller reneges and keeps you earnest money? What if a burglar breaks into your house and you suceessfully subdue him? What if your dentist accidentally pulls the wrong tooth?

    You don’t need to cite ‘hard luck’ examples of why we need government. We just have to realize that the ‘property rights’ that the Paulians keep harping on are only guaranteed when there is a functioning government to protect them.

  • conversets

    So, this would have been a “great deal” for you, Joe?

    Build your own roads, inspect your own food, defend your own property against attacks by god-knows-who… probably the hordes of hungry, uneducated poor who would be loose on the street, free to go after rich jerks like you.

    Yeah, really a great deal.

  • afguy

    Paul,
    .
    That’s what they are amassing those arsenals in their basements for.
    .
    They won’t need to wait for the police or courts to “make things right.”
    .
    They’ll go over and by God take care of that issue themselves.

  • afguy

    Think “frontier justice”… BEFORE anyone foresaw the need for a sheriff.

  • afguy

    Guess the vacation’s over… the livestock are back in the house… crapping on the furniture like before.

  • rdw56

    The answer lies in a phrase that conservatives are loathe to use: the consent of the governed.

    **************************************

    This makes no sense are all. The reverse is true. How many liberals spent the last 8 years trashing GWB for pushing democracy and individual righs while going after turds like Castro and Chavez? Who took Saddam out and installed a democracy? It wasn’t liberals.

  • newfreedomblog

    “But the building of a social safety net isn’tcreeping socialism. It’s ground-zero democracy.”

    .
    Totally off-base as usual, Joe Klein. Your non-use of the term “Social Justice” in disguise of “safety-net” is what the difference is between those of us who are proponents of individual responsibility and those on your side who want a world of “From each according to his ability, to each according to his need (or needs)”.
    .
    This is the difference Mr Klein. As Thomas Sowell once said ““One of the consequences of such notions as “entitlements” is that people who have contributed nothing to society feel that society owes them something, apparently just for being nice enough to grace us with their presence.”
    .
    http://thinkexist.com/quotations/socialism/
    .
    “Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word, equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude.” Alexis de Tocqueville
    .
    “Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” Winston Churchill
    .
    And last, I shall quote Thomas Sowell again;
    .
    “The assumption that spending more of the taxpayer’s money will make things better has survived all kinds of evidence that it has made things worse. The black family- which survived slavery, discrimination, poverty, wars and depressions- began to come apart as the federal government moved in with its well-financed programs to “help.”
    .
    Equality versus Collective Insanity. (my quote). Equal justice versus social justice. Barack Obama and many on the left have this vision that everyone should contribute to the collective common good of everyone else. What they forget is that this country was built on the individual who will work hard and achieve the American Dream. When you take that away from people and replace it with handouts, they will no longer have the drive to make it in the world. They will sit back and just wait for the next Government handout.
    .
    Kinda like these two ladies from Detroit;
    .

  • Ivy_B

    It was like a nice vacation.

  • rdw56

    Joe got Thune wrong as you would expect. He’s not well known but he is well respected and is getting good reviews from the people who matter, conservatives. Pity Mitt passed a HC bill in MA with a mandate. That makes him all but unelectable. Almost every one got good reviews. The Pauls are fringe players, Newt has too much baggage and Trump was there just for spark. Michele Backmann also helped herself.

  • earljr1

    Trouble dealing with truth, afguy? If a different perspective is offered, it obviously makes you uncomfortable….but crapping on the furniture?
    Come on, afguy, you are better than this. Don’t be so rigid. The many honorable years you spent in the Air Force should have broadened your horizon and hey, as they say in your neck of the woods, “there is more than one way to skin a cat”.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Anyone who can use the phrase “installed a democracy” is clearly clueless about what democracy is……

  • freeinpa

    What do you think the flat 10% is for ? To keep the lights for the Lincoln Memorial on? Defense and order are what we require from the government not whether a Big Mac has too much salt or what cars we should buy?

    .
    If we need the federal government because a dentist pulls the wrong tooth. we have a far more serious problem in this country. That would put government on par with terrorists

  • freeinpa

    Liberals always have trouble dealing with the truth. Delusions are the only thing keep them going. Why do you think liberals have the highest suicide rate? When the delusions are gone they realize how pathetic their life is

  • rdw56

    It’s not complicated. The Democracy was designed and actually installed by the Iraqi’s themselves. Our role in the ‘installation’ was to require a constitution and thus rule of law and then require elections. Iraq now has a functioning democracy which for this stage in it’s development is working well.

  • pintortwo

    A little clarification here..
    .
    I assume that Paul’s 10% offer is what is referred to by JK as an “extreme.. form of conservatism”. Paul’s “attack on the Patriot Act” and “blast(ing) the war in Afghanistan” is not extreme at all- rather it seems a very traditional conservative position. It is merely uncommon to hear “an honest (conservative) argument” postulated at a modern-day “parade of Republican presidential hopefuls”.

  • freeinpa

    “While the eyes of the world have been on Egypt the past few days–congratulations to the heroes of Tahrir Square!”
    .

    JK not surprisingly you cheer the heroes of Tahrir Square why you belittle the Tea Party. Both lead protests against an authoritarian government that lead to its downfall.

  • diecash1

    Both lead protests against an authoritarian government that lead to its downfall.

    False equivalence at its stupidest. Bravo.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “and even, at times, critical of what he called the “venomous, petty, often ad hominem political discourse of the day.””
    .
    Without “venomous, petty, often ad hominem political discourse ” there would be no Tea Party nor anything left of the Republican Party.
    .
    Sounds like an outstanding choice to me as long as he and his campaign actually follow through on that.
    .
    No death panels, no 16,500 armed IRS agents no cut and run, no Swift Boat Captains for justice no the president is a Muslim no birthers no whitewater investigations no Hillary Clinton murdered Vince Foster no Democrats want the terrorists to win, no climate change deniers no inaccurate attacks against Keynesian Economics would be a dream come true for Democrats
    .
    The campaign would have to be, “Even though it will rape the economy even further I will shut down needed services to keep taxes low on the wealthiest.”
    .
    Somehow, I don’t believe him.

  • newfreedomblog

    LadyDieCash: Actually, Nancy Pelosi. Is that you Nancy? Are you who I call LadyDieCash?
    .
    LOL!!!
    .

  • newfreedomblog

    What LadyDieCash and Nancy Pelosi want for America
    .
    Nancy says, “This is what I want for MY America”!!!
    .

  • rdw56

    Pauls 10% offer isn’t an extreme form of conservativism, it’s libertarianism. The response to terrorism in Afghanistan and the decision Saddams antics were not going to continue in a post 9/11 were absolutely conservative. We don’t believe in a strong defense because we like pretty tanks. It’s why we so aggressively supported Israel in Southern Lebanon and Gaza.

  • Paul-no not that one

    It’s interesting how easy it is to name an example of rightwing extremism-Ron Paul in this case-yet this “Some liberals” of JK’s remains anonymous.

  • Cliff

    Seriously, Joe, if you’re going to throw some horsesh*t like that out there, cite some sources.

  • Cliff

    While the eyes of the world have been on Egypt the past few days–congratulations to the heroes of Tahrir Square!–my eyes have been fixed on the parade of Republican presidential hopefuls selling their wares at the Conservative Political Action Conference.
    .
    Which is just what we needed because there is literally no other journalist on Swampland who is reporting on CPAC.

  • rdw56

    Conservatives are very supportive of spending and govt if it’s for the right thing. Over in Afghanistan they’re testing a new weapon some are calling a game changer. Here’s a clip:

    The XM-25 has been put into experimental/evaluation use in Afghanistan, and the conclusion is: It works.

    Look, the weapon is being used, primarily, to engage at long distances that other weapons can’t hit. So we often don’t know exactly who it’s killing and who it’s wounding.

    The good news is that it seems to terminate firefights very quickly, as the Taliban quickly abandons its positions and flees. (I think then it should be dubbed “The Terminator.”)

    rdw- The weapon is being tested and the surest sign of success is the soldiers do not want to give it back. The ‘rifle’ essentially shoots a smart ‘bullet’ that explodes behind or beside barriers as necessary to kill. It’s still made by hand but they are starting to ramp up production.

  • pintortwo

    Iraq now has a functioning democracy
    .
    Iraq is ranked the 4th most corrupt government in the world, behind only Somalia, Myanmar and Afghanistan (Somalia shouldn’t even count, they have no government) -link.
    .
    The Iraqi government didn’t function for 9 months after their last elections as no one trusted its legitimacy. Rival sects couldn’t agree on the composition of parliament and therefore couldn’t form one. The aftermath (mostly resulting in assassination attempts and deadly clashes between Shiite dominated security forces and Sunni populations often believed to have received US training as part of the Sunni Awakening) plunged the country into its highest levels of violence in over two years.

  • pintortwo

    No mention of.. Paul’s “attack on the Patriot Act” and “blast(ing) the war in Afghanistan”.

  • rdw56

    Petraeus, Drones and the XM-25 are the prime example of a conservative Democracy at it’s best. To have an effective military you need to be able to kill and Petraeus if nothing else is a killer. When you consider how professional our forces are, how well supplied and armed you just have to swell with pride.

    If you can flash back to Vietnam and the draft as I can it’s really a shocking change. We have men who want to fight and want to be the best in the world. We have a free market system with the best incentives in place to ensure excellence. Those who design the best weapons will win the contract.

    The single biggest difference between Petraeus and his predessors is he’s an an aggressive warrier. He’s Bradley. Powell wanted to use overwhelming power to avoid a fight. Petraeus wants overwhelming power to win the fight. Thus he’s very open tactically to new weapons such as the drone and the XM-25. The MSM isn’t reporting success in Afghanistan but the surge is working. The Taliban gets they can’t meet us in battle and even insurgent tactics are failing.

  • newfreedomblog

    As Obama is intent on continuing an end-less war scenario, I expect he will defund this new technology. Why end a War when it serves a purpose for him?
    .
    No, the “XM-25″ will never see the light of day I’m afraid. They are too busy doing Nation building. And what our liberal friends say? NOTHING. The anointed one can do nothing wrong in their eyes, no matter how much he does things just like everyone before him has done.

  • pintortwo

    .. when (if) at the link, scroll down to show countries by rank, then click on the “rank” box on the left margin until an arrow appears and points up (2 clicks). That will show the rank of countries from worst to best.
    .
    ..tried to have it show up that way, didn’t work.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Speaking of not dealing with Truth, Freak:
    .
    “Why do you think liberals have the highest suicide rate?”
    .

    Examples of points made by graphs on this page:
    7 of the smartest 10 states are consdiered “liberal”
    8 of the least smart 10 states are consdiered “conservative”.

    6 of the 10 states with the lowest divorce rates are consdiered “liberal”.
    10 of the 10 states with highest divorce rates are consdiered “conservative”.

    4 of the 5 states with the lowest rates of teen pregnancy are consdiered “liberal”.
    5 of the 5 states with the highest rates of teen pregnancy are consdiered “conservative”.

    17 of the 21 states with highest murder rates are consdiered “conservative”.

    8 of the 8 states with the lowest suicide rates are consdiered “liberal”.
    8 of the 8 states with the highest suicide rates are red.

    Only 3 blue states believe in executing children.
    16 red states believe in executing children.

    .
    http://www.liberalslikechrist.org/about/graphs-1.html
    .
    I guess that’s why you hold onto your riffle so tightly. You’re ready to do a Kurt Cobain.
    .
    I should be trying to talk you out of this, shouldn’t I?

  • afguy

    Conservatives are very supportive of spending and govt if it’s for the right thing.
    .
    A more efficient way to kill… yay, government involvement and spending!

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Trouble dealing with truth, afguy? If a different perspective is offered, it obviously makes you uncomfortable.”
    .
    This coming from you?
    .
    Sniff, sniff.
    .
    Is that the pot calling the kettle black again.
    .
    Oh, no, it’s a hospital orderly in Atalanta who pretends to be a doctor online saying that his political rivals can not deal with reality.
    .
    Now, stop sharpening your paws on the couch!

  • Cliff

    Do you need a towel or something to dry off after that?

  • rdw56

    I assume you want me to respond to Paul on Iraq and the patrriot act, I have none. I think libertarians are flakes. They’re not a sect or subset of conservatives anymore than liberals are a subset of socialists. I will say his opposition is far more intellectually honest than liberals have been. Liberals spent 7 years screaming at Bush on national security and ZERO years at Obama for doing exactly the same thing. It’s quite fun to look at so-called serious libs on the patriot act before and after Bush. Obviously, they’re not serious. They’re frauds.

    BTW: I am not a fan of either paul but of there was a way of fashioning a bet as to who will have a larger impact, Rand Paul or Bernie Sanders, sociualist, I’ll got with Rand.

  • rdw56

    nah, this is all old news by now. If you were able to follow any of the military bloggers during the surge this wold be old news. It was great when petraeus came in and we switched from defense to offense and the collapse began. Petraeus has changed the world. Actully take it a step back to Bush and Sharon with their responses to terror attack. Sharon essentially trapped Arafat in his compound and turned it into a toilet. He then start assassinating the Fatah and Hamas leadership. When GWB started in Iraq he went after Saddam 1st and never stopped looking for him. The new idea is to kill the leadership. Think about it. You going to send donkeys out to kill themselves if you know uncle sam or ariel are going to kill you?

    The toys just mean you are going to really humiliate them while keeping your own as safe as possible.

  • rdw56

    .. yay, government involvement and spending!

    ******************************

    peace thru strength defeated the USSR and socialism without firing a shot. did you know the kill ratio in Gaza was 150 to 1. Terror leaders will be far less aggressive when they know they die 1st.

  • pintortwo

    Here we go again…
    .
    Yemeni police with clubs on Saturday beat anti-government protesters who were celebrating the resignation of Egyptian leader Hosni Mubarak and demanding the ouster of their own president.
    .
    The crackdown reflected an effort to undercut a protest movement seeking fresh momentum from the developments in Egypt, where an 18-day uprising toppled Mubarak…
    .
    The United States is in a delicate position because it advocates democratic reform, but wants stability in Yemen because it is seen as a key ally in its fight against Islamic militants.
    -link

  • afguy

    Maybe no towels needed, Cliff, but definitely more than a few Handi-Wipes.
    .
    I’m pretty sure BOTH hands were needed for that one. I’m still seeing “after-shocks”….

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “How many liberals spent the last 8 years trashing GWB for pushing democracy and individual righs while going after turds like Castro and Chavez?”
    .
    Individual rights?
    .
    Like the PATRIOT Act?
    .
    “…while going after turds like Castro and Chavez..”
    .
    Presidents who Disapproved of Castro by maintaining sanctions against his government:
    .
    Kennedy (D)
    .
    Johnson (D)
    .
    Nixon (R- RINO)
    .
    Ford (R-RINO)
    .
    Cater (D)
    .
    Reagan (R)
    .
    Bush Sr (R)
    .
    Clinton (D)
    .
    W (D)
    .
    Obama (D).
    .
    People who approved of Castro
    .
    Gus Hall, (October 8, 1910 – October 13, 2000)leader of the Communist Party USA.
    .
    How was GWB going after Hugo Chavez?
    .

    According to the CIA World Factbook, Venezuela imported $48.1 billion worth of foreign goods last year [2008 -this is a 2009 article] . Raw materials, machinery, transport equipment and construction materials represent major commodities imported into Venezuela. Leading suppliers to Venezuela were the United States (24.4%), Colombia (13.9%), Brazil (9.6%), China (6.5%), Mexico (5.3%) and Panama (5.1%).

    Read more at Suite101: Venezuela’s Top Imports & Exports 2008: Venezuela Trades Oil for American Wheat, Corn and Rice http://www.suite101.com/content/venezuelas-top-imports-exports-2008-a156935#ixzz1Dm8PvLrj
    .
    So, buying billions of dollars worth of oil from Venezuela is how we go after our enemies?
    .
    GWB did nothing but get made fun of by Chavez at the UN.
    .

    .
    Afterward, he went to Harlem and the Bronx giving away free heating fuel which Bush had cut ( as Obama, to appease Republicans has proposed now).

  • Cliff

    Your stamina is legendary, rdw56.

  • earljr1

    Oh boy, here we go again. Fatpatrick forgot to take his meds this morning and his paranoia is taking over his thought process.
    My commentary was directed to a sane liberal, fatpatrick. Keep in mind, I am a surgeon, not a psychiatrist.There is really nothing I can do to help you, so take your rants elsewhere, please.

  • afguy

    So is his grip.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Liberals spent 7 years screaming at Bush on national security and ZERO years at Obama for doing exactly the same thing.
    .
    Obama chose a country at random – or because of his dad – to go and attack to win re-election?
    .
    No.
    .
    Obama started two wars?
    .
    Obama finished Bush’s “ I don’t want to be a one term president like daddy” war AKA Iraq and continues in Afghanistan from from whom we were attacked .
    .
    If you mean not repealing the PATRIOT Act, the push from the left has not been as strong, but, the push from the right did not exist when Bush wrote the legislation.
    .
    You have a terrible habit of rewriting history and making your own definitions of thins such as Reagan was the first conservative.
    .
    Okay, then, from now on I get to declare that I am the only true liberal and if you say one thing that I disagree with but claim that this is something liberals have done, then I can say you are wrong.

  • afguy

    I don’t want to think about what he’d do with a Jane’s Weapons Almanac.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Both lead protests against an authoritarian government that lead to its downfall.”
    .
    Then, by that same token, Obama is exactly like the Egyptian protesters since the Bush regime had created the PATRIOT Act.
    .
    The Tea Party protests against the will of 45% to 65% of all Americans in favor of policies for the oligarchy .

  • freeinpa

    “”Why do you think liberals have the highest suicide rate”
    .
    So despite their self congratulatory (and false) findings of superiority they have the highest suicide rate because of conservatives?
    .

    Worthless and weak on top of delusional

  • http://elvisberg.wordpress.com Elvis Elvisberg

    It’s the dirty hippies in his head, afguy, as always.
    -
    Peggy Noonan said this about how the out-of-it (in her view) GOP viewed the world a while back, but it applies to many self-conscious “centrists” as well: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121088369408596389.html Some GOP leaders “are in Perpetual 1980: We have the country, the troops will rally in the fall.”
    -
    I was a teenager when Nirvana, Pearl Jam, & the Foo Fighters were popular & important, so I’m kinda inclined to treat it as “natural” that they’re cool. Similarly, Joe Klein was a cub reporter in 1972, and thinks the Democrats are constantly at risk of being overrun by silly hippies. Because the only Democratic Party I’ve known is the Bill Clinton era & beyond, that seems as relevant to me as are the old man in Confederacy of Dunces calling everyone a “communiss.”
    -
    Incidentally, the debt isn’t that hard to fix. Return tax rates to 1990s levels– not Eisenhower levels, not punitive anythings, just where they were back when the economy worked– stop occupying quite so many foreign countries, add in a few other tweaks, and we’re done. See: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/11/13/weekinreview/deficits-graphic.html?choices=809205qv

  • pintortwo

    I assume you want me to respond to Paul
    .
    Feel free, but I could care less. With my 10.2 I’m pointing out that you didn’t respond to my comment.
    .
    The rest of your 10.3 rambles on, but I will react to..
    .
    Liberals spent 7 years screaming at Bush on national security and ZERO years at Obama for doing exactly the same thing
    .
    ..ONLY liberals and flakey libertarian-types are denouncing Obama for practicing Bush-era atrocities. Not right-media, not straight-media. Only the sage Village purveyors of Conventional Wisdom and Centrism Fetishists (like JK) screamed at Bush yet remain silent on Obama.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Rusty,
    .
    The leadership of labor unions are elected by the membership and therefore, are always grass root actions while Rupert Murdoch and the Koch Brothers are not elected .
    .
    These billionaires purchased your support the way that I am on my way out the door to purchase a cup of coffee.
    .
    Hence: elected by the members = grass roots.
    .
    Selected by billionaires through constantly lying and misinformation = ass roots.
    .
    You are the lead ass here.
    .
    Seriously, how much do you get paid to write this crap?

  • freeinpa

    “Okay, then, from now on I get to declare that I am the only true liberal and if you say one thing that I disagree with but claim that this is something liberals have done, then I can say you are wrong.”
    .
    You can declare cottage cheese ice cream (and probably have) so whatever helps get your through the day Rev Jim. Meds would help

  • freeinpa

    “False equivalence at its stupidest”
    .,
    Right on schedule. Yesterday the word was ironic today the left is filling up with false equivalence.
    .
    Such a predictable and pathetic being.

  • pintortwo

    ..which was preceded by…
    .
    Dec 16, 2009.. At least 120 Houthis have lost lives and 44 others sustained injuries as US fighter jets took part in air strikes in the northwestern Yemeni province of Sa’ada.
    (…)
    .
    The US military continues its air raids on Yemen’s northern beleaguered regions of Amran, Hajjah and Sa’ada which have already been the target of joint Saudi-Yemen offensive against the Houthi fighters.

    The conflict in northern Yemen began in 2004 between Sana’a and Houthi fighters. The conflict intensified in August 2009 when the Yemeni army launched Operation Scorched Earth in an attempt to crush the fighters in the northern province of Sa’ada.

    The Houthis accuse the Yemeni government of violation of their civil rights, political, economic and religious marginalization as well as large-scale corruption. -link

  • afguy

    Terror leaders will be far less aggressive when they know they die 1st.
    .
    Unless, of course, they actually believe in their cause. Not everyone is into purely political calculus.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “peace thru strength defeated the USSR and socialism without firing a shot.”
    .
    Wrong.
    .
    Social Democracy is thriving in most of the EEC countries.
    .
    Marxism, which is a totalitarian ideology died in 1991 due to allowing no private business at all .
    .
    Bush Sr just happened to be the guy standing there when the Soviet Union fell three years after Reagan left the White House.
    .
    Why doesn’t Bush Sr get the credit?
    .
    Bush Sr, also, was a carbon copy of Reagan’s low tax high debt economic policies later copied by son W Bush.

  • freeinpa

    “The leadership of labor unions are elected by the membership and therefore, are always grass root actions while Rupert Murdoch and the Koch Brothers are not elected .”
    .
    Still testing positive for stupid Rev Jim. Yes union leaders are voted in the same way dictators are usually voted in — by the threat of thugs.
    .
    When you are the founder and leader of a business you lead by doing and in the case of a public company you do get elected by shareholders. I can understand why that escapes you , it is an election in which ACORN is not involved.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “I don’t want to think about what he’d do with a Jane’s Weapons Almanac.”
    .
    All of the pages of his copy are all stuck together with… well, it looks a little bit like paste but…. Oh, no.

  • freeinpa

    More delusions to help delusional phatrick get through the day. Somebody better check him soon for shoelaces and belts.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Yesterday the word was ironic today the left is filling up with false equivalence.”
    .
    No, yesterday the theme was thank god none of the wingnuts are here.
    .
    What a pathetic life you have if you like to piss everybody off all day.

  • apr2563

    I know, he was doing so well. I don’t know any liberals who want to crush free enterprise. Joe, take a look at those “Europeans”. Germany seems to be doing quite well.
    .
    It was only a couple of years ago that the right was touting the emergence of a booming Ireland because of lowered taxes, etc. Look at it now.

  • afguy

    Actually, the words yesterday were “constructive”, “refreshing” and “peaceful”…
    .
    The signal-to-noise ratio was very high, for some reason…
    .
    Then there’s today…

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “by the threat of thugs.”
    .
    You do know that the show The Sopranos is fiction, don’t you?
    .
    I bet you believe that Scotty will beam you up to your spaceship to Republican land and save you from this evil world.

  • apr2563

    Patrick, just in case you forgot, earljr is a doctor.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Somebody better check him soon for shoelaces and belts.”
    .
    The 8 states with the lowest suicide rates are considered liberal while the ones with the highest are considered conservative, so, shoe laces are for tying for Democrats.
    .
    For you… You’re wife better keep a close watch over you.
    .
    You’ve succeeded in making a content free comment – just a random attack from a dead ideology.

  • Cliff

    So is his grip.
    .
    Awesome.

  • apr2563

    http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/former-bachmann-chief-of-staff-she-isnt-electable-not-qualified-to-be-president.php?ref=fpb
    .

    Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-MN), the Tea Party star who has been eyeing a possible run for President, is now being badmouthed by an unusual source: Ron Carey, a former chairman of the Minnesota GOP — who also happens to be one of Bachmann’s many ex-chiefs of staff!
    .
    “While she passes the conservative test, my opinion from my association with her is she’s not going to be an electable candidate for us,” said Carey. “And even if she were elected I don’t believe she would be ready for the position of the president of the United States.”

    .
    The fantasy candidate, like Gingrich and others, will raise lots of money, sell some books, and get the attention she craves.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    You can declare cottage cheese ice cream…”
    and it would be as dumb as RDW56 saying that Ronald Reagan is the only conservative president we ever had which I was making fun of.
    .
    But, If what I said is wacky to you, then your buddy, RDW56 must be wacky.
    .
    Thanks for proving my point.

  • apr2563

    Wow, comparing the 2 is not only a false equivalency but a delusional statement.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    phatrick
    .
    “phat Featured Word
    adjective

    * very good, excellent; COOL.

    That’s a phat bike.

    See more words meaning: good, okay, cool, awesome, fun

    by Anonymous, Jan 16 1997 (Edit definition)
    * attractive. Note: an acronym, “pretty hot and tempting,” has been invented for the word. The acronym came after the original coining of the term.

    See more words meaning: acronyms (list of)
    See more words meaning: attractive”
    .
    http://onlineslangdictionary.com/definition+of/phat
    .
    I’m not sure what to make of it when an elderly rural angry white man uses an inner city 1990s black term to call me cool, but, thanks.

  • earljr1

    Yes, april, a doctor. What have YOU accomplished in life except sponge off the taxpayer? (Just like your son, fatpatrick. you really did a lousy job of raising this cretin, you know)

  • apr2563

    freeper, my father was a loyal union member for years. No thugs coerced his membership.
    .
    During his lifetime unions brought the end to child labor, employees given paid vacations and holidays, the 40 hour work week, overtime, health benefits, work safety laws, right to negotiate…How many of these opportunities would have been offered without the unions speaking for the working man and woman?
    .
    They helped build the middle class that is now being torn down by those oligarchs that have always hated unions.

  • shepherdwong

    What if you want to drive to Idaho to get away from the crazy liberals in Joe Klein’s head?

  • freeinpa

    Yes, april, a doctor. What have YOU accomplished in life except sponge off the taxpayer? (Just like your son, fatpatrick. you really did a lousy job of raising this cretin, you know)”
    .
    Yes phatpatrick dropped out of college failes as a cab driver, failed as a used car salesman, was rejected for public service.
    .
    But you have to admire his persistence (or stupidity) he still thinks he ‘s a brilliant success

  • freeinpa

    “Okay, then, from now on I get to declare”
    .
    No just once again you missed the point. You can declare what you like- What you think is irrelevant and wrong and nobody truly cares.

  • freeinpa

    “What a pathetic life you have if you like to piss everybody off all day”
    .
    By everybody you mean liberals then maybe. Funny how in your own little delusional world you think there are only liberals.
    .
    And my life could be more pathetic– I could be you. BAhhhd

    ..

  • paulejb

    afguy@1,
    .
    Joe Klein hits the nail on the head and the knee jerkers consign him to perdition. The reason d’etre of liberalism is to create a system of government where self appointed elites make all the decisions for the benighted masses. It is the goal of liberals to install a nanny state where all decisions are made by them for everyone else from cradle to grave.
    .
    America has said “Thanks, but no thanks” to that kind soft socialism. They believe that government has a place, they just don’t believe that that place is in their laps.

  • shepherdwong

    And last, I shall quote Thomas Sowell again;
    .
    “The assumption that spending more of the taxpayer’s money will make things better has survived all kinds of evidence that it has made things worse. The black family- which survived slavery, discrimination, poverty, wars and depressions- began to come apart as the federal government moved in with its well-financed programs to “help.”

    .
    Why not quote him, he’s an idiot and probably a racist, just like you. The black family was decimated by slavery and Jim Crow and now by racial discrimination and grinding, intractable poverty. Foolishly ignoring or lying about all history to lay the blame on the federal government is the typical moronic ranting of brainwashed right-wing-authoritarian-following tools. White racists like you have a lot more to do with the plight of the black family than anyone else.

  • paulejb

    afguy@2,
    .
    A classic case of liberalism in action…
    .

    .
    It’s “trust us, we know better” all the way.

  • apr2563

    earljr: You are a doctor of the demented. I have worked all my adult life. Granted, I am now on Social Security. But, I don’t consider that being a sponge. Maybe you do. So don’t collect when you retire.
    .
    Here are some of the jobs I have had. Not all easy or pleasant:
    . Raised 2 children
    . Waitress
    . Bartender
    . Managed bowling alley, serviced the equipment
    . Gift shop manager
    . Cooked and sold dungeness crab and fresh oysters off the back of a truck
    . Owned and managed motel. Did own cleaning.
    . Owned and did field work in a cranberry bog
    . Worked in a cranberry cannery
    . Taught fifth grade
    . Substitute teacher
    . Customer service-auto and health insurance
    . Sales of recreational vehicle insurance
    . Supervisor for health insurance 3rd party and SCHIP
    .
    In between, was President of the PTA, school board member, President of the Children’s Orthopedic Society, coached Little League team, organized and led 4H groups with over 200 membership, managed the 4H summercamp, led and passed school levy initiatives, served as Democratic precinct chairwoman, organized and participated in volunteer program for local school, helped organize cooperative pre-school.
    .
    That is some of what I have accomplished. Can I rest now? Is the kindly “doctor” pleased?

  • freeinpa

    “You do know that the show The Sopranos is fiction, don’t you?”
    .
    And you do know law abiding peaceful unions are too.
    .

    “freeper, my father was a loyal union member for years. No thugs coerced his membership.”
    .
    And I ma sure that is why with card check unions wnat private ballots gone.
    .
    .
    “During his lifetime unions brought the end to child labor, employees given paid vacations and holidays, the 40 hour work week, overtime, health benefits, work safety laws, right to negotiate…How many of these opportunities would have been offered without the unions speaking for the working man and woman?”
    .
    I gather by most of your posts you must be near 100 years old since you keep referring to the 40s. Unions like buggy whips have all but outlived their existence. What have they done recently (in your current twilight years)? Well they bankrupted the airline, steel and auto industries. They are well on their way to performing the same service for every state.
    .
    Speaking of opportunities for women. ILGWA collected union dues from my mother for over 20 years and when she retired was receiving her pension $2.53 per month; less than her union dues. Always looking out for the American worker

    I am sure Jimmy Hoffa enjoyed the peaceful unions too

  • freeinpa

    “That’s a phat bike”

    And a bike is a jock strap. So Phatrick you are a cool jock strap..

    And no matter how many wikipedia pages you copy — liberal have a higher rate of suicides– stay away fro open window. At least your wife doesn’t need to worry (you have none) but the farm animals might miss you

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “If we need the federal government because a dentist pulls the wrong tooth. we have a far more serious problem in this country. That would put government on par with terrorists.”
    .
    Helping somebody get reimbursement for having the wrong tooth pulled or the wrong leg amputated is a…. terrorism?
    .
    That is deranged even for you.

  • apr2563

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/algeria/8320772/Algeria-shuts-down-internet-and-Facebook-as-protest-mounts.html
    .
    Another sad story.
    .
    Plastic bullets and tear gas were used to try and disperse large crowds in major cities and towns, with 30,000 riot police taking to the streets in Algiers alone.

    There were also reports of journalists being targeted by state-sponsored thugs to stop reports of the disturbances being broadcast to the outside world.

    But it was the government attack on the internet which was of particular significance to those calling for an end to President Abdelaziz Boutifleka’s repressive regime.
    .
    If you have ever watched the “Battle for Algiers”, you have to see the irony in what is happening now.

  • paulejb

    patricksartor@3.1,
    .
    Thank heavens that there is no “venomous, petty, often ad hominem political discourse” coming from the left.
    .
    I often wonder if liberals like yourself live in a bubble. It is the left which holds the patent on vindictive, vile and venomous rhetoric. I can date the start of the vituperation to the late Ted Kennedy’s speech on Judge Bork’s nomination to the Supreme Court.

  • apr2563

    My goodness. So many of the reactionaries are obsessed by my age.
    My question was how many protections and benefits would there have been without unions? Many businesses have already left this country to take advantage of unorganized work forces. I guess we should just cave and give business what they want, a society of serfs.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “The reason d’etre of liberalism is to create a system of government where self appointed elites make all the decisions for the benighted masses. It is the goal of liberals to install a nanny state where all decisions are made by them for everyone else from cradle to grave.”
    .
    You mean like how liberals believe that if poor, dumb workers unionize they will turn into thugs and ruin life for everybody?
    .
    Oh, no, that’s conservatives.
    .
    You mean like how liberals believe that if we all have access to health care we are so irresponsible and mentally frail that we will turn into hypochondriacs and go to the doctor incessantly ?
    .
    Oh, no, that’s conservatives.
    .
    Like how liberals believe that if you have scientists research what will harm the climate that these scientists will morph into power hungry raving lunatics who will make all economic activity illegal
    .
    Oh, no, that’s conservatives.
    .
    You mean how liberals think that showing calories on a menu will confuse people’s little brains so we should leave it to restaurants to trust them on what is healthy food and what is not
    .
    Oh, no, that’s conservatives.
    .
    I think I have figured it out.
    .
    “The reason d’etre of conservative economics is to create a system of government where self appointed corporate elites make all the decisions for the benighted masses. It is the goal of conservatism to install an aristocracy where all decisions are made by big business for everyone else from cradle to grave.”
    .
    Fixed it for you Lord Paul.

  • paulejb

    pintertwo@7.3,
    .
    Wonder what an Iraqi version of the “Louisiana Purchase” or the “Nebraska Corn Husker Hustle” would look like?
    .
    The Democrat party could teach the Iraqi government a thing or two about corruption.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “…away from the fog of the controversy” as in, no death panels and so on.
    .
    Not the way I would phrase it. I would have said “Away from the bald faced lies being perpetuated by the far right backed by massive corporations spreading complete misinformation for private profit
    .
    But Nancy is a polite grandmother and I am not your grandpa.

  • afguy

    You can declare what you like- What you think is irrelevant and wrong and nobody truly cares.
    .
    free,
    .
    I thought it was liberals who told everyone what to think and what’s important.
    .
    Project much?

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “I can date the start of the vituperation to the late Ted Kennedy’s speech on Judge Bork’s nomination to the Supreme Court”
    .
    Yo mean when Ted Kennedy said that judge Bork was a radical Muslim who was born in a foreign country and, therefore, not allowed to serve in office that he wanted to create death panels he wanted terrorists to win and did not love America?
    .
    I can date back the start of the vituperation to the Morton Doweny Jr Show.
    .
    Compared to Rushy, who took over his radio spot, Downey was just a kitten by comparison.

  • paulejb

    shepherwong@8.1,
    .
    Your allegation that an accomplished black man like Thomas Sowell is a racist because he refuses to stay on the liberal plantation is astoundingly dishonest and vile, even coming from you.
    .
    The destruction of the black family was caused by liberal welfare policies originating with LBJ’s Great Society. I have often said that the only casualties of the War on Poverty were the poor, especially the black family.

  • rdw56

    Wrong.
    .
    Social Democracy is thriving in most of the EEC countries.

    ************************************

    Right.

    As Reagan predicted in the UK in 1982 Socialism and Marxism will end up on the ash heap of history.

    Social democracy is just another name for liberalism or progressivism. It defines the slow growth policies of FDR and Western Europe due to far too hgh taxes and regulation.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “It is the left which holds the patent on vindictive, vile and venomous rhetoric.”
    .
    Maybe if you included proven facts vindictive, vile and venomous like how Reagan cut and run from Islamic terrorists, raised taxes on the middle class ( while cutting them for the wealthiest) while exploding the deficit, didn’t get us of recession for more than two years and had the economy fail again after another five years then, maybe you would have a point.
    .
    When I think of vindictive, vile and venomous rhetoric. I do not include proven facts on that list.

  • rdw56

    Why doesn’t Bush Sr get the credit?

    *********************************************

    Because he wasn’t a key factor. Reagan reversed the policies of the worst President of the last century and confronted the USSR aggressively. He shares credit with the Pope and Thatcher aswell as the Polish people and they all stood on the shoulders of Truman and Ike.

  • afguy

    Two words, paulie.
    .
    Lee Atwood.

  • paulejb

    patricksartor@18.2,
    .
    “Social democracy is thriving in most of the EEC countries.”

    Which ones, Pat? Would it be Spain with it’s 20% unemployment? How about the basket case of Greece living on loans from Germany? Ireland? Portugal? Where is it that we can find all that thriving?

  • afguy

    OK, get the towels or Handi-Wipes ready…
    .
    He’s gonna blow!!! Just a matter of time..

  • http://elvisberg.wordpress.com Elvis Elvisberg

    Pointing to Greece & Ireland to “prove” that Europe sucks is like pointing to Mississippi and Alaska to “prove” that the United States is a hopelessly unproductive welfare state surviving by sponging off of productive populaces elsewhere. In Germany, France, and Scandinavia, things are quite good.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Just like your son, fatpatrick. you really did a lousy job of raising this cretin, you know.
    .
    Apr!
    .
    Did you see that?
    .
    Earl such an amazing doctor that he has done an online DNA test to discover that a woman who has never been to New York City is, actually the mother of a man who has never been to the West Coast of the United States.
    .
    Wow, I’ve got to tell my doctor that he is all wrong! He says that my blood pressure is fine, I have no symptoms of diabetes am not in mortal danger from weight and… oh boy… I have to go call my mom and tell her that, despite remembering giving birth to me, I am not actually related to her.
    .

    cretinism
    - 4 dictionary results
    Pituitary Cancer Experts
    Leader in Treating Pituitary Tumors Memorial Sloan-Kettering. NY/NJ.
    http://www.mskcc.org
    Pfizer HCP Resources
    Find HCP Resources for SOMAVERT® (pegvisomant for injection).
    http://www.pfizerpro.com/SOMAVERT
    Cretinism
    Learn More About Cretinism Causes, Symptoms, Treatment, Tests
    healthtools.aarp.org
    cre·tin·ism
       /ˈkritnˌɪzəm or, especially Brit., ˈkrɛt-/ Show Spelled[kreet-n-iz-uhm or, especially Brit., kret-] Show IPA
    –noun Pathology .
    a congenital disease due to absence or deficiency of normal thyroid secretion, characterized by physical deformity, dwarfism, and mental retardation, and often by goiter.

    .
    While I am there, the good doctor informs me that, at 6′ 2″, I am the the world’s tallest dwarf.
    .
    This Earl guy is the most amazingly lame fraud who works as an orderly in an Atlanta area hospital doctor I have ever heard of!
    .
    Earl, you are amazingly dumb at medicine.

  • paulejb

    patricksartor@2.2,
    .
    Parse it all you like, Pat. But no matter how you phrase it it was an egregiously arrogant statement that only an arch-liberal could utter. It showed contempt for the audience and the wider population of America.
    .
    This little gem should be required reading for those who believe that liberals have our bets interests at heart.

  • rdw56

    I don’t want to think about what he’d do with a Jane’s Weapons Almanac

    *****************************************

    You know, I’ve only seen on of those once in my life and I wasn’t able to actually look thru it. As a quartermaster (navigation) on the USS Concord in 1974 I had the job of once a week making sure every clock on the ship was in sync including the one in the Captains Qtrs. He had it on his coffee table. They frowned on seaman looking thru the captains things and he was a prick so I didn’t. Today rely on popular science.

  • newfreedomblog

    It’s ok paulejb. Wongy I am positive didn’t even know Sowell is a black man, which is obvious in his comment before you clued the poor sap in on the facts.
    .
    But, as usual, libtards do not want to debate the facts when they are put right in their face. They would rather go to the “you’re a racist” vitriol to defend their classic position of failure. To justify a broken program of social justice.
    .
    You hit the nail on the head, paulejb, the welfare programs the libtards have set up for the poor IS a form of the old southern States slavery goals. Nothing more, nothing less.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “By everybody you mean liberals then maybe.
    .
    Fact: you are online on Swampland from 8:30 in the morning until at least 7:00 at night.
    .
    Fact: you are far to the right of the political spectrum and are in a moderately liberal site.
    .
    Fact: Unless you get no sleep at all you have only a few hours outside of sleep to be around people you are not eager to piss off.
    .
    Hence, you love to piss people off.
    .
    Sometimes I think you go into John Birch Society meetings as Marxist to see how much you can piss them off.

  • afguy

    DEAR HIGH SHERIFFS:
    .
    Was Friday our St. Valentine’s Day present? The discussion was enlightening, invigorating, and mostly clear of the hatefulness and name-calling we’ve come to expect.
    .
    Can you figure out which switch you threw (either on purpose or accidentally) and give us another of those days like that from time to time?
    .
    If the day was one of those “fault analysis” processes in which you take away one group to see which one was the source or cause of the noise being generated, I hope today’s discussion will provide some sort of definitive answer, as you can see it has degenerated to a typical “sh!t-slinging” exercise to a large part .
    .
    Take a few moments at some point and analyze the data gathered,
    .
    Thanks. afguy

  • rdw56

    If you mean not repealing the PATRIOT Act, the push from the left has not been as strong,

    ***************

    What push from the left?

  • shepherdwong

    Your allegation that an accomplished black man like Thomas Sowell is a racist because he refuses to stay on the liberal plantation…
    .
    You should work on your reading comprehension, along with your education in real knowledge outside the psychologically-damaging right-wing lie machine. I alleged that Sowell was an idiot and possibly a racist because he denied the effect of slavery, segragation, Jim Crow and white discrimination on black families to make a moronic charge that government policies were the sole cause of the problems of black families.

    From 1825, when she entered the Norcom household, until 1842, the year she escaped from slavery, Harriet Jacobs struggled to avoid the sexual victimization that Dr. Norcom intended to be her fate. Although she loved and admired her grandmother, Molly Horniblow, a free black woman who wanted to help Jacobs gain her freedom, the teenage slave could not bring herself to reveal to her unassailably upright grandmother the nature of Norcom’s threats. Despised by the doctor’s suspicious wife and increasingly isolated by her situation, Jacobs in desperation formed a clandestine liaison with Samuel Tredwell Sawyer, a white attorney with whom Jacobs had two children, Joseph and Louisa, by the time she was twenty years old. Hoping that by seeming to run away she could induce Norcom to sell her children to their father, Jacobs hid herself in a crawl space above a storeroom in her grandmother’s house in the summer of 1835. In that “little dismal hole” she remained for the next seven years, sewing, reading the Bible, keeping watch over her children as best she could, and writing occasional letters to Flint designed to confuse him as to her actual whereabouts. In 1837 Sawyer was elected to the United States House of Representatives. Although he had purchased their children in accordance with their mother’s wishes, Sawyer moved to Washington, D.C. without emancipating either Joseph or Louisa. In 1842 Jacobs escaped to the North by boat, determined to reclaim her daughter from Sawyer, who had sent her to Brooklyn, New York, to work as a house servant.

    Now crawl back to the right-wing disinformation sites where you get your corporatist dogma and traitorous lies, no one here is fooled by your right-wing bullsh!t.
    .
    http://docsouth.unc.edu/fpn/jacobs/bio.html

  • shepherdwong

    Wongy I am positive didn’t even know Sowell is a black man, which is obvious in his comment before you clued the poor sap in on the facts.
    .
    Whys is that? Did you think that black men could only be racist against whites (The New Black Panthers are Coming!) or that quoting a black man would shield you from revealing your own white racism? Wrong again, @sshole.

  • shepherdwong

    Awesome guys. Quite a peek into the authoritarian-following mindset though.

    Petraeus has changed the world.

    The single biggest difference between Petraeus and his predessors is he’s an an aggressive warrier. He’s Bradley.

    Wow, just wow.

  • apr2563

    Patrick: Tell your mom not to worry, I am not going to claim maternity. But, son, I am proud of you.

  • shepherdwong

    Pointing to Greece & Ireland to “prove” that Europe sucks is like pointing to Mississippi and Alaska to “prove” that the United States is a hopelessly unproductive welfare state…
    .
    Data-dredging is one of paulejb’s few and predictable debate techniques. Some people use facts the way a drunk uses a lampost; to support rather than illuminate.

  • apr2563

    afguy: I hope the high sheriffs listen.

  • earljr1

    Fatpatrick, you breezed right by the mental retardation part.
    Take you away from google and you would find your self totally incapable of communicating. You are a social misfit, a loner and a totally forgettable character.
    Failed student
    Failed taxi driver
    Army and police department reject (I suspect mental issues)
    Failed security guard
    Failed rental booking agent (because he sits on his fat butt all day and refuses to work)
    And most disheartening, failed at relationships. (any number of reasons here, but most notably, lousy personality, obesity and acute paranoia)
    Face up to it, fatpatrick…you are simply a loser.

  • rdw56

    Ron Carey, a former chairman of the Minnesota GOP — who also happens to be one of Bachmann’s many ex-chiefs of staff!

    **************************

    She’s been in politics about 4 years. Howmany ex-chief of staffs can there be?

  • earljr1

    Yes, april, you would be. Birds of a feather and all of that. Sure hope he got his ugly mug from his father, if not…..well, you know.

  • paulejb

    patricksartor@1.5,
    .
    Liberals are renowned for knowing things that are not true.
    .
    Take unions for example. We have private sector unions which are shrinking because people would prefer a job rather than an endless string of benefits which drive the employer out of business. Than you have the public employee unions which defend mediocrity or worse to the last man.
    .
    Everyone has access to health care, but some believe that someone else should pay for theirs.
    .
    Liberals believe in any hoax as long as it leads to more government power over our lives.
    .
    If we rely on liberals to select our food items than we deserve anything we get.
    .
    Liberalism is not so much an ideology as it is a pathology.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Which ones, Pat?”
    .
    “Unemployment in Germany fell more than expected in January and the jobless rate is now at its lowest level since March 1992, it was 7.4 percent when adjusted for seasonal factors such as bad weather. “
    .
    http://www.euronews.net/2011/02/01/more-germans-in-work-in-january/
    .
    Lower than the US at 9%
    .
    “Europe :: Italy …Unemployment rate: 8.4% (2010 est.)”
    .
    https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/it.html
    .
    Lower than the US at 9%.
    .
    The CIA is an amazing source if you would like to know more about how social democratic countries have lower or the same unemployment rates we do.

  • rdw56

    Do you have any idea what Patreaus does? He’s the general of an army. He’s not a politician. He doesn’t decide on type of govt. His job is to win wars. He does this by killing everyone on the other side.

  • http://2thirdsrocks.wordpress.com 2thirdsrocks

    someone needs a tissue.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    You guys all know that I was happier with intelligent discussion than what we have right now.
    .
    I just wished that, for all of the days when work came at me out of nowhere, it was not that Friday.

  • http://jcapan.wordpress.com jcapan

    Well, it ain’t no coinkydink … as Cliff asked yesterday:
    .
    “So has anyone seen the resident trolls or patricksartor today?”
    .
    If they weren’t fed such heaping plates, the discussion could be like Friday everyday.

  • rdw56

    Great news Pat!

    You are aware it was the team of Merkel and Harper at the G-8 two years ago who told Obama to cram his idea of a massive global stimulus? Yep. Obama wanted a statement promoting govt stimulus programs. He got shot down. They did the EXACT opposite.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “someone needs a tissue.”
    .
    Yeah, it was that music reviewer who heard you with your band last night.
    .
    It was so bad that it drove him to tears.
    .
    That’s why you can’t find a gig on Saturday night when only the part timers and untalented wanabees can’t even get a permit to play a street corner for a few hundred in tips.
    .
    Take this time to practice your music and, maybe, someday, you won’t have to be on welfare and beat yourself up for it by railing against the Democrats who make sure you’ve got your food stamps.

  • shepherdwong

    He does this by killing everyone on the other side.
    .
    Yeah, we get it. You find that…admirable.

  • rdw56

    The CIA is an amazing source if you would like to know more about how social democratic countries have lower or the same unemployment rates we do.

    *******************************************************

    Do you really want to point out how bad Obama’s stimulus plan was?

  • paulejb

    patricksartor@3.3 & 3.4,
    .
    Ted Kennedy was not quite so polite as he launched his assault on Robert Bork. Ted unleashed the demons of the left and they haven’t been caged since.
    .

    Rush Limbaugh’s effectiveness in exposing liberal hypocrisy is the reason for the left’s hatred of him.
    .
    Reagan did cut and run from an untenable situation. It was idiocy at it’s highest level to place US troops in the position of peace keepers in a place that hasn’t known peace in thousands of years. Peacekeeping should be left to the rent-an-army division of the UN.
    .
    Reagan lowered tax rates. That was a tax decrease for everyone.
    .
    Reagan was busy dismantling the “Evil Empire” in those years so we should cut him some slack. What is Obama doing to justify his existence?

  • paulejb

    afguy@3.5,
    .
    Ted Kennedy and other political assassins on the left make Lee Atwater look like a choir boy.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “You are aware it was the team of Merkel and Harper at the G-8 two years ago who told Obama to cram his idea of a massive global stimulus?
    .

    13 January 2009

    The current debate about a second German economic stimulus plan makes one thing clear: the federal government does not have the slightest intention to protect the population from the impact of the economic crisis.

    When the international financial crisis began to threaten German banks last October, the government rushed to put together a so-called rescue package that gave banks access to 500 billion euros ($US 668 billion) worth of taxpayers’ money. To stave off the loss of billions for stockbrokers and speculators, this rescue package was drawn up under direct instructions from Josef Ackermann, chairman of the Deutsche Bank, and rapidly pushed through parliament. Not one of the silk-shirted financiers was called to account for the financial disaster.

    .
    http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/jan2009/merk-j13.shtml
    .

    Canada
    Budget 2010: A second year of stimulus spending
    [...]
    Before the cuts kick in, however, the Conservative government said it was committed to spend $19-billion as part of year two of the two-year $47-billion stimulus package aimed at resuscitating the economy after the global financial crisis.

    The 451-page budget sets out how the Conservatives plan to meet all its goals — of creating jobs and bolstering Canada’s long-term competitiveness…

    Read more: http://www.nationalpost.com/news/canada/budget/story.html?id=2636923#ixzz1DmwtFmYf
    .
    It’s funny you should say that.
    .
    By international standards, Obama is very conservative since both of those countries had, proportionate to GDP, much larger stimulus packages than the US.
    .
    “Do you really want to point out how bad Obama’s stimulus plan was?”
    .
    The whole world knows how bad it was and why: Obama bent over backwards or you could say bent over for Republicans who don’t care if the economy improves or not, so long as they get more power.
    .
    As far as the G-8 meeting, most of the world was still pissed off at the US for attacking Iraq and since Obama hadn’t gotten us out yet, pissed enough at him not do business with him more than needed.

  • rdw56

    Well of course I do. He is more important to our democratic way of life than any politician. It’d people like Petraeus who stant up to the leftist thugs who want to control everything. If the mad mullahs had their way we’d be under sharia law and praying 5x’s a day. They’d roll Obama in a heartbeat. They can’t get past Pertaeus.

    BTW: It’s worse than you know. Petraeus has been the head of the promotions board for 5 cycles now. One of the advantages of having someone like Obama is he is totally clueless as to how the military operates. Petraeus has been selecting all senior officer pomotions for 5 years now. Obviously he’s promoting warriors. Obviously everyone in the military understands the doctrine you need to understand to get promoted.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “If they weren’t fed such heaping plates, the discussion could be like Friday everyday.”
    .
    All I know is by the time I got here in March Rusty, Free and two thirds were posting like it was going out of style.
    .
    Two thirds is rarely here anymore.
    .
    Earl and 3Xfire3 arrived and started posting more than ever after I got here.
    .
    I saw Freeinpa quit for more than a week.
    .
    I saw Rusty cut down the number of things he wrote.
    .
    Saw Groenhaggen2 come and go.
    .
    Are you sure that telling them to go fck themselves makes them want to come by more often?
    .
    It seems as if that was not working by March 2010.

  • paulejb

    shepherdwong@8.4,

    Contrary to your ill informed beliefs, Black history did not end with the Emancipation Proclamation or even the 13th Amendment. They have had a rich history in America ever since then. There were trials and tribulations throughout that time but the black family survived them all. What the black family could not survive was the heavy hand of government which replaced the man in a black household with a government check.
    .
    That, my friend, is the cause of the destruction of the black family.

  • rdw56

    , Obama is very conservative since both of those countries had, proportionate to GDP, much larger stimulus packages than the US.

    ************************

    Their packages as enacted were FAR more conservative and they firmly reject his call for more stimulus. The G-8 press release called for the opposite. What’s actually even more interesting is neither Harper nor Merkel like Obama even a little bit. Obama thinks he’s all that. They don’t.

  • paulejb

    shepherdwong@18.12,
    .
    It must be a great discomfort to you to be confronted by facts as you have only a nodding acquaintance with them.
    .
    Should I try to weave some myths and fallacies into the narrative so that you don’t feel left out?

  • afguy
  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “It showed contempt for the audience and the wider population of America.”
    .
    It showed contempt for the liars who claimed so many untrue things about it.

  • paulejb

    patricksartor@18.13,

    It is indeed ironic that liberals are now holding up Germany as the model to be emulated. I never knew that you people were such fans of austerity.

  • afguy

    Obviously he’s promoting warriors.
    .
    Or, he’s promoting syncophants. Ones whose thinking will reflect his.

  • paulejb

    patricksartor@18.13,
    .
    It is indeed ironic to see liberals holding up Germany as the model to be emulated. I never knew that you people were such fans of austerity. Have you joined the Tea Party while I wasn’t looking?

  • rdw56

    and since Obama hadn’t gotten us out yet, pissed enough at him not do business with him more than needed.

    ************************************

    It’s much worse that that. Obama’s problems are his own. He is totally clueless regarding history and diplomacy and they have no time for an amateur. They heard all of his promised as a Senator and as a candidate and then watched him reverse every one. He treated the UK as a poor cousin.

    As it happens, I am rather OK with that. I like the recent speeches/comments from the leaders of the UK/ France/ Germany saying multiculturalism has failed. They sense since GWB pulled all 100K troops out and conservatives don’t much care for them they are on their own. 10 years ago Star Wars was Reagans joke. Now, not so funny. It’s a healthy process. If I know my history the Germans will soon enforce discipline and the liberals won’t much care for it. If you know anything of economics you know the Germans are doing quite well. If you know anything of math the compounding effect is quite powerful. It was Merkel who told Obama to cram it. The Germans will assert themselves.

  • http://jcapan.wordpress.com jcapan

    “Are you sure that telling them to go fck themselves makes them want to come by more often?”
    .
    SATSQ: Yes. To paraphrase Jerry Maguire, “they complete you.
    .
    So I have to call disingenuous b-s here:
    .
    “You guys all know that I was happier with intelligent discussion than what we have right now.
    .
    Listen, Pat, I get that you relish the fights. And you’re hardly the only one to engage the rightwingers, but you are, bar none, the principal reason why partisan insult-athons have become the most prominent feature of the Swamp in recent months. Inevitably, when I see a thread with 100+ comments, I know who I’ll find regurgitating the “You’re stupider” chronicles. And while I don’t want the high sheriffs stepping in to do a thing, there are I think many of us less interested in such engagement who’d like to see you dial it back a notch.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Ted Kennedy and other political assassins on the left make Lee Atwater look like a choir boy.”
    .
    Do you have any examples, or do just like making completely unfounded statements?

  • rdw56

    since Obama hadn’t gotten us out yet, pissed enough at him not do business with him more than needed.

    ******************************************

    We’re now past 2 years. When do you think they’ll do business?

  • paulejb

    patricksartor@2.4,
    .
    Exactly! Nancy was saying that we rubes are much to unintelligent to separate the wheat from the chaff. She wants us to trust her and the other self appointed elitists to know what is best for us.
    .
    No matter how you spin it, Pat, that is exactly how she came across to most people.

  • http://erieangel.wordpress.com erieangel

    When will the right realize that you can’t force democracy at the end of a gun. Iraq doesn’t have a democracy–they have a puppet government and the US is the puppet master.

  • afguy

    As bad as this one has gotten, there was one a couple of years or so ago that reached 1k comments. Joe linked to RedState and the sludge poured. The archives for that should probably be destroyed it became so toxic and heated.
    .
    We were actually able to have a decent conversation that weekend by exercising a lot of discipline and refusing to respond to the overt insults and baiting. When you can do that, the tone changes. Oh, the attempts continue, but it becomes obvious when you don’t take the bait that it is defeating their reason for being here. And, after a while, they stop trying.
    .
    In answer to the question of whether telling them to buzz off makes them want to come more, the answer is a resounding YES. It’s getting the rise out of us (and you) that’s the goal – NOT meaningful discussion.
    .
    Keep that in mind.
    .
    They WANT to piss you off enough to get you to respond in kind. If they get you off the topic or off of a civil, thoughtful reply – bingo, they’ve won.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “you are, bar none, the principal reason why partisan insult-athons have become the most prominent feature of the Swamp in recent months.”
    .
    I’ll give it a try for three weeks.
    .
    Today is February 12th at 6:39 PM.
    .
    If wingnut activity does not go down by Saturday, March 5th, you’ll join me in petitioning WordPress to ban aad hominem attacks.
    .
    All I can tell you is that this reminds me very much of the second grade (not high school, not even junior high school) where the school bullies loved nothing more than silence from those who they attacked.
    .
    Three weeks and not a day longer.

  • rdw56

    Ones whose thinking will reflect his.

    ***************************************
    Duh, and has been successful. This is the cool thing. Liberals loved the Powell Doctrine because it was an argument for doing nothing. The Powell doctrine only gained currency because Powell was a black man and whatever he decided was his doctrine liberals were going to buy into It never worked. There’s not an example of success. Desert Storm as military tactics is an embarrassment. That was a total mismatch. There’s nothing there for history to celebrate. When Patraeus too over every liberal on the planet claimed all was lost.

    He achieved a stunning victory and will almost certainly get a 5th star.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    See 21.9

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    See 21.9
    .

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    See comments at 21.9
    .

  • afguy

    You’re missing the point, patrick.
    .
    You don’t give them OVERALL silence on the blog, just to their attacks.
    .
    You continue to post and discuss as though their “flames” and insults weren’t there.
    .
    Nothing frustrates a bully more than being ignored.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    See my comments at 21.9
    .

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    21.9

  • apr2563

    Everytime earljr posts he exposes his ugly, bigoted, mean spirited self. I hope I am right and he does not practice medicine in the United States or anywhere else.

  • paulejb

    patricksartor@3.8,
    .
    1. Ted Kennedy’s speech on Robert Bork.

    2. James Carville – “Drag a $100 bill through a trailer park and there is no telling what you will find.”
    .
    3. Alan Grayson – On the GOP health care plan; “Don’t get sick? And if you do get sick die quickly!”

    4. Nancy Pelosi – Accuses Tea Party members of carrying “swastikas.”

    5. Steny Hoyer – Tea Party members un-American.

    6. Steve Cohen – Compares the Tea Party to the Klan and the Republicans to nazis.

    Just some examples of liberal “civility.”

  • paulejb

    patricksartor@6.4,
    .
    Would three of those 7 “smartest” liberal states be New York, California and Michigan?

  • mattgordonmd

    CPAC: Crazies Performing Among Crazies

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “You continue to post and discuss as though their “flames” and insults weren’t there.”
    .
    Afguy,
    .
    By far the longest posts I have had were with RDW56, who is an unskilled debater and not open to outside facts.
    .
    His “flames” are rare, but, he isn’t a reasonable debater.
    .
    As for Rusty, Freeinpa, Earl and 3xfire3, the better the argument you make against them, the harder they hit.
    .
    So, as far as I am concerned these people are are non-entities .
    .
    They lack the maturity to debate ideas which the rest of us (including a small number of conservatives and libertarians) have.
    .
    Hence, they do not exist to me.
    .
    ( If I used the more common term “dead to me” it would taken as a threat.)
    .
    If it comes from anybody who has launched insults regularly, it will be ignored.
    .
    If, by March 5th they have not been discouraged enough by being invisible to me ( ideally with some of you joining – but I do not expect lead Democrats into one team since that is an accomplishment unknown to mankind) I will ask that as many of us as possible request these people be banned from the site.
    .
    If nobody joins me, then, shortly after, it will either be business as usual or, maybe I will find a moderated site to actually discuss things with reasonable people.
    .
    Then I might tell you all about the great, moderate site I find and ask you to join me.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Twenty one point nine remark.

  • pintortwo

    What push from the left (to repeal the PATRIOT Act)?
    .
    For instance (one of many examples) the ACLU endorsing the Kucinich-Paul Fix-PATRIOT Act Bill (link):
    .
    Passing the massive legislation only 45 days after 9/11, Congress had little opportunity to deliberatively consider the PATRIOT Act. The result was a 342-page piece of legislation, the bulk of which was non-controversial, yet which contained several stealthy, but radical, changes to the investigative powers of our federal government. Civil liberties supporters seek only to roll back these overreaching segments of the bill.
    .
    Congressmen Dennis Kucinich from Ohio and Ron Paul from Texas have taken a necessary step in that direction. Congress now has a chance to repair the damage… This legislation would ensure that an effective “war on terrorism” is conducted within the bounds of the Constitution. Congress must take this concrete step toward ensuring both our safety and our freedom.

    .
    ———-
    .
    Side note: this is an example of something I referred to a while back– principled conservatives and liberals sharing common ground.

  • Paul-no not that one

    “I will ask that as many of us as possible request these people be banned from the site.”
    .
    Pass. Page Down does the same job without stifling voices others, not me, want to hear.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    comments at 21.9

  • apr2563

    jcapan: I know you and Stuart are the resident intellects on this site. But, you know who I get the most value from on the posts, grape_crush and Ivy_B and others that bring sourced information. They are very smart and aware of current issues. I have gone weeks without reacting to the trolls, but weaken at times. Hey, I am human.
    .
    I enjoy and generally agree with your and Struarts anti-centerist disertations. However, I would find them more helpful if they came accompanied by solutions. Criticism can be valuable but new ideas and leadership are even more valuable.
    .
    I don’t think any one person can be responsible for the reationary trolls on this site. Read any generalized political blog and you will find them. The words and pov are the same. Often the reactionaries are having a dialogue with themselves.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Page Down does the same job without stifling voices others, not me, want to hear.”
    .
    Like I said: I do not expect lead Democrats into one team since that is an accomplishment unknown to mankind.

  • afguy

    Agreed, Paul.
    .
    I’ve gritted my teeth a lot today but banning them would make the Swamp more like just another RedState, IMHO.
    .
    The RW hate-fest DOES tend to have a side benefit to anyone with a truly open mind who might visit. Nice contrast.

  • Paul-no not that one

    Ha-you and Will Rogers, patrick.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “The words and pov are the same. Often the reactionaries are having a dialogue with themselves.”
    .
    If I can’t throw them out – and I mean the most hostile ones – by fighting back, I’ll starve them out.
    .
    If they are, as has been proposed, paid professional trolls ( which would explain some of the eleven hour days they put into this blog and the totally improbable biographies they claim) they will lose their jobs for being totally ineffective if I – and possibly others – pretend that they do not exist.
    .
    A real shunning can crush an ego and, if they are paid professional trolls, could put them out of business.

  • afguy

    Patrick,
    .
    NOW thou getteth the general idea.

  • apr2563


    .
    The new Battle for Algiers. Infinitely more important than CPAC.

  • jgsr

    “…the social safety net…”
    A good mental image to work from.
    Safety nets are below you, to catch you if you fall.
    If the outer edges of the safety net are raised…as opposed to laying flat…..then the safety net becomes a cage, an enclosure which prevents horizontal travel.
    When a safety net is below and flat, it only prevents further travel downward.
    Preventing further downward travel is good.
    Preventing further travel North, South, East, and West is incarceration.

  • rdw56

    ron paul is not conservative

  • http://jcapan.wordpress.com jcapan

    “I’ll give it a try for three weeks.”
    .
    Good to hear Pat, that you’re open to giving it a shot.
    .
    But I’m not interested in petitioning WordPress to do much of anything. Rusty & co. almost never respond to my comments b/c, naturally, I don’t sink to their level. Nothing is to be gained by engagement with these folks. Apol, N-R, they’re a different breed of animal.
    .
    And I’m not saying that they’ll disappear entirely. But they’re not here to engage one another, so the # of their comments will drop dramatically IMO if they’re not fed. I also say this based on history, in that OUAT, before far too many good liberals said AMF, the vast majority of commenters avoided the Spobs and Rusties like the plague they are. They’d drop their scat but it’d go unrecognized by most.
    .
    Finally, this isn’t a playground. If someone was insulting me in person or attempting to bully me, I’d be the first guy to get heated and start an admittedly stupid, counterproductive fight, but this is, at it’s occasional best, an intellectual discussion, where such a response is rightfully considered ludicrous.
    .
    Finally, your voice is worth listening to, but I’m sure I’m not alone in almost never hearing it. I see your partners and drive right on by.

  • paulejb

    patricksartor@21.9,
    .
    Are you serious? Are you really issuing an ultimatum with a fixed date of expiration?
    .
    This is a political discussion comments page not Sesame Street. It is foolish and somewhat lame to object when some sharp elbows are thrown. What do you want? Homogeneity of political opinions?
    .
    I particularly take umbrage at the fact that you issued this same threat as a response to two of my measured comments. I had originally not taken you to be one who was susceptible to the totalitarian impulse to stifle opposition voices. It seems though, that I have misjudged you.
    .
    I will be more careful in the future.

  • paulejb

    patricksartor@22.1,
    .
    See 21.20.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    I’ve got to draw the line somewhere on who I respond to and who I don’t.
    .
    To be frank, Paullie, you are right on the boarder. But, you are very time consuming.
    .
    Also, this has gotten very, very time consuming and, actually, do have other interests in addition to a recent uptick in the real estate market ( or at the very lease an uptick on things I am working on)
    .
    Address the question to somebody else who will show you that the Nazi reference was 100% accurate but easily misunderstood.

  • afguy

    Caution: also beware of “scab pickers”.

  • paulejb

    mattgordonmd@23,

    I would be cautious. Patrick Sartor is threatening to turn you into the Time magazine moderators for using harsh rhetoric.
    .
    A word to the wise…

  • Paul-no not that one

    “By far the longest posts I have had were with RDW56, who is an unskilled debater and not open to outside facts”.
    .
    I’m about as far from rdw as anyone can be but we had a pretty good exchange the other evening. Likely surprised us both.
    .
    Point being that more people can be engaged than one would guess.
    .
    One tries and if it becomes clear that they have nothing to offer one moves on.

  • paulejb

    afguy@21.21,
    .
    “Scab pickers” are the least of our worries when the speech police are on the prowl. What is it about liberals that makes them resort to censorship? Is it doubt of their own ideology? Are they just afraid that it might not withstand the light of day?
    .
    What’s your guess, afguy?

  • freeinpa

    “My question was how many protections and benefits would there have been without unions? Many businesses have already left this country to take advantage of unorganized work forces. I guess we should just cave and give business what they want, a society of serfs.”
    .
    No one is obsessed with your age as much as you only see to remember certain things from the past and ignore what happens in the present.
    .
    And the question is not what has been done be the unions, it is what are they doing now. Yes businesses have left the country. Why outrageous union demands and government regulation. No there will not be a country of serfs just high priced union members out of work. Just like the steelworkers back in the 70s crowing “we have the best contract i the industry” right before the mills closed.

    A society of serfs? No you want one where wages ad benefits go up ofrever regardless of any global economic conditions while the government confiscates more wealth through higher taxes all for social justice of course.

  • earljr1

    Sorry, april, I am fully licensed and practicing in Atlanta, Ga. Board qualified in thoracic surgery, too. I also teach medical students and supervise interns and residents.
    And you, dear april, are not biased, hostile and narrow minded one bit, are you? You NEVER unleash a barb, too.
    You are what you are, a washed up old pot smoking hippy with a nasty disposition (and mouth) and I am sure, a completely dull and boring person.

  • rwbbinla

    I have a problem with “we have men who want to fight” statement. If you think that Americans want to be fighting in another country, you are nothing short of an idiot.

  • freeinpa

    “I saw Freeinpa quit for more than a week”
    .
    “You guys all know that I was happier with intelligent discussion than what we have right now.”
    .

    .
    Unless in your delusional mind 1 day = a week or that fact you have no comprehension would your statement be true. But then again your statements are never true.
    .
    And no matter who is posting here you will never be an active participant in any intelligent conversation, thaqt is a genetic reality for you.
    .
    What the juvenile attempt by the left in this thread show is that the left loves to spend their time bashing conservatives without any voice to the contrary. Otherwise they are nothing more than whining little school girls. You should just enjoy those days of blasting and keep your mouth shut about how pleasant the day was without your bankrupt philosophy and delusional minds being called to task. What really fries your backside is not that discussion but that you are called out for the fools you are.

  • freeinpa

    Great analogy.

    What you forgot to add is that incarceration makes you then dependent on others for your daily living.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “I had originally not taken you to be one who was susceptible to the totalitarian impulse to stifle opposition voices. It seems though, that I have misjudged you.”
    .
    There are three issues completely intertwined.
    .
    First, the border between debate and flame war is far thinner today than it has been since I was old enough to remember (I’ll be 40 very soon, so, I have no personal experiences with the 1960s).
    .
    Second there are debaters on the right, namely RDW56 who seems to have ADD or some inability not to bring in what seems like 45 different subtopics in every post which is extremely time consuming. This is what you are more similar to than Earl, but your totalitarian impulse to stifle opposition voices was a counterexample. It was somewhat argumentative, but not quite a full blown attack.
    .
    Third. is one of the self reflective things. I look at a few flame wars I didn’t get involved in and, after maybe – maybe - one or to little chuckles I find it annoying to read. I don’t want to be that annoying guy to others reading this.
    .
    Fourth when dragged off topic by one of you – most likely RDW56 - and responding to sometimes totally ridiculous arguments I get dinner and say to myself “Hmmm what did I get done today….” and am not all that pleased with saying that I spent all day on odd topics which are extraneous to everything and, often, have not finished one thing or another I could get done for work. ( I am among the self employed, my boss never leaves me alone at all it’s like wherever I go, whatever I do, there I am)
    .
    So you can say that my boss wants me to be far more selective with what I do online.
    .
    Paillie, you’re not a flame warrior ( at least not yet, 3xfire3 started out playing the role of peacenic and became a hard core flame warrior after about three to five weeks) but you are very serious partisan ideologue.
    .
    I’ve voted for Republicans.
    .
    Not so much now, but, I do know of a good deal of Republicans I would have been proud to have supported in days gone by.
    .
    It is safe to say that you can not say that of any Democrats.
    .
    Over and out.

  • diecash1

    Great news Pat!
    You are aware it was the team of Merkel and Harper at the G-8 two years ago who told Obama to cram his idea of a massive global stimulus? Yep. Obama wanted a statement promoting govt stimulus programs. He got shot down. They did the EXACT opposite.

    It was Germany’s many industrial and social policies that, if they were enacted here you would scream “SOCIALISM!”, allowed them to weather the economic storm and recover faster than the U.S.

    [..]A vast expansion of a program paying to keep workers employed, rather than dealing with them once they lost their jobs, was the most direct step taken in the heat of the crisis. But the roots of Germany’s export-driven success reach back to the painful restructuring under the previous government of Chancellor Gerhard Schröder.
    ..
    By paring unemployment benefits, easing rules for hiring and firing, and management and labor’s working together to keep a lid on wages, Germany ensured that it could again export its way to growth with competitive, nimble companies producing the cars and machine tools the world’s economies — emerging and developed alike — demanded.[..]
    ..
    Government officials here are confident they found the right approach, including a better solution to unemployment. They extended the “Kurzarbeit” or “short work” program to encourage companies to furlough workers or give them fewer hours instead of firing them, making up lost wages out of a fund filled in good times through payroll deductions and company contributions.
    ..
    At its peak in May 2009, roughly 1.5 million workers were enrolled in the program. The Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development recently estimated that by the third quarter of 2009, more than 200,000 jobs may have been saved as a result.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/14/world/europe/14germany.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1
    ..
    The was a good discussion about it in the Swamp a couple of months ago with a link to another article that discussed the German industrial policy of investment in the individual local districts. Keeping a viable manufacturing base and not laying off thousands of workers made the difference for Germany. They are set up fundamentally differently than we are and as such, the remedy is different. Perhaps someone can link to the previous discussion or the article that was discussed. I’m a bit pressed for time right now.

  • freeinpa

    “By far the longest posts I have had were with RDW56, who is an unskilled debater and not open to outside facts.
    .
    His “flames” are rare, but, he isn’t a reasonable debater.
    .
    As for Rusty, Freeinpa, Earl and 3xfire3, the better the argument you make against them, the harder they hit”
    .
    Here is patrick in high delusion. He believes every statement he makes is af act and there is no debate. He is just like IQ5 pages of nonsense that he believes is brilliant and witty, much of which has nothing to do with the topic, followed by cheap insults, then whing that he has been insulted and finally taking a victory lap basking in his own self-anointed brilliance.
    .
    He can be expected to take textbook liberal positions, defend their most heinous activities and then make up some “facts” that he pulls out his body cavity about hte conservative he is posting about without any foundation.

    ANd that is what passes for liberal brilliance and dialogue here.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Preventing further downward travel is good.
    Preventing further travel North, South, East, and West is incarceration.”

    .
    Which is why Clinton lead welfare reform which makes benefits tiered with gradual decreases in benefits as income goes up.
    .
    The things which burned Republicans was that many low wage workers were qualified for partial benefits.
    .
    A more tiered system would get more and more non-union blue collar workers on the list of recipients.
    .
    This is why Republicans rail against welfare but don’t actually seek true reform. True reform would increase the budget.
    .
    Also, the average stay on Welfare before welfare reform was about three years. Not too long for 75 year lifespan and only a fairly small number who ever get benefits.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    There is a point where flame warrior is so different from a debater that is ridiculous.
    .
    “Here is patrick in high delusion. He believes every statement he makes is af act and there is no debate. He is just like IQ5 pages of nonsense that he believes is brilliant and witty, much of which has nothing to do with the topic, followed by cheap insults, then whing that he has been insulted and finally taking a victory lap basking in his own self-anointed brilliance.
    .
    He can be expected to take textbook liberal positions, defend their most heinous activities and then make up some “facts” that he pulls out his body cavity about hte conservative he is posting about without any foundation.

    ANd that is what passes for liberal brilliance and dialogue here.”
    .
    So, without the flame war, we have:
    .
    “Here is patrick. He can be expected to take textbook liberal positions.”
    .
    Without the flames, how uninteresting is that?
    .
    Removing the flames it is more true than untrue, but, a total waste of time.
    .
    I consider myself liberal. I could have told you that myself.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Note: although OT – which can be a problem - jgsr’s comment had two sides to it and was not an attack against either an individual nor a group of people.
    .
    Hence, I responded.
    .
    And, yes, welfare does need more reform, but, I believe that it is in a more tiered system which will be more, not less expensive.

  • afguy

    Patrick,
    .
    This is what I meant by “scab pickers”.
    .
    It does NO good to try to explain why you are not going to respond to their insults and “digs”.
    .
    THEY….DON’T….CARE.
    .
    Their whole point is to get you to respond to them. Trying to respond to outrageous commentary, NO MATTER HOW FAR OFF THEY ARE, is STILL a response. And, as long as YOU keep taking the bait, they’ll keep throwing it out there. It is simply WHY THEY ARE HERE.
    .
    THAT’S….THE….WHOLE….POINT.
    .
    They’ll finally stop “picking” when you stop responding to them COMPLETELY.
    .
    You are dealing with posters whose whole point is the “clever insult”. Or the not-so-clever type… disruption of the discussion.
    .
    Let the insults roll off of you. No matter how bad they get (and, trust, me, at first, they WILL get worse).
    .
    Just remember… this isn’t about a discussion… they’re on a mission… and it doesn’t involve havng a meaningful conversation with you or anyone else here.
    .
    An open forum means they’re free to post here…. just as we’re free to ignore their sorry a$$e$, when there ceases to be any point in doing so.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Point being that more people can be engaged than one would guess.
    .
    For RDW56, I have this mental image of a kid with very severe ADDHD I went to school with when we were 8 and 9 years old.
    .
    If RDW56 could stick to one topic for a little while he wouldn’t be too bad.
    .
    It isn’t that you want to hear your own echo. That’s useless and what many of us can see when we read the posts of people who exclusively use right wing media as their sources of information. I do not seek a counterpart to that.
    .
    Paullie just wore me out with going back into something I had gone through at least one previous time. Google the matter of Nancy Pelosi and the Swastikas. She completely correctly stated that the Tea Party was, at that moment showing swastikas . They were showing them on pictures of the president. She did not say that they were wearing swastikas. And considering that every reasonable person is offended by Nazis, her comments were reasonable if, accidentally unclear as to where the Swastikas were that the Tea Party had.
    .
    Paullie, you google and find that.
    .
    I haven’t even eaten dinner yet.

  • robbert5

    Paulie,

    I have no clue where you get your facts from but boy are you wrong!

    Liberals, progressives, social democrats do believe in capitalism and not in nanny states.

    Besides that, you just pop up these “facts” witout any backing. I am telling you, your perception of the truth is wrong and therefore if repeated a lie!

  • redlotuspetal68

    I enjoyed the article because of the comment the author made about Obama and how careful he is diplomatically. I needed to be reminded by someone that he isn’t doing that bad a job in light of all the problems we are immersed in due to the bad economy, the war, and general mishaps.

    I digress, though. I am so tired of people not getting that a flat tax is regressive. It must have been divined by one of the wives of the rich, “so, ya know, hon, what I was thinkin is we could all just pay 10%. It fits nicely on this here chart I made with colored pens and glue. I created it and found I had one more section for taxes.”

    I recognize that I, like many of my fellow Americans now have a way to express our opinions be they dumb and arrogant, but come on, don’t the experts know what they are doing?

    Also: I am seriously concerned about these far right wing conservatives and don’t have time to waste on “feel good” Republicans. The Republicans will cut the crap out of services for people like me: someone with a disability. So, piss off pubs!

  • rdw56

    You think the Marines want to fight here?

  • http://jcapan.wordpress.com jcapan

    “jcapan: I know you and Stuart are the resident intellects on this site.”
    .
    Aside from sounding like a backhanded compliment, this is hardly true. There are plenty of brilliant writers on this site.
    .
    In any event, I’ve seen you make this point several times now, that somehow commenters who are the most critical of the democratic party/status quo have the highest burden to provide solutions. Apparently, moreso than partisans (blind or pragmatic alike).
    .
    While I’d hardly speak for the far more widely respected SZ, I think implicit in our criticism is that understanding the difference between Obama and FDR is, in fact, a huge part of the solution. For dems who are blind to that obvious reality, or for those who see O as constrained by practical considerations, if they can come to see centrists as our enemies, just as the rightists are, then there just might be a path FWD.
    .
    My thing is, Apr, that things are going to get really bad if we don’t radically alter our course, and that means radically altering our expectations about our current representatives. That Clinton 2.0 or 3.0 will not be enough to avert some rather extreme unpleasantness from transpiring in the near future. Cuz right now, when the sh!t hits the fan, the events of the last few weeks in Egypt won’t seem nearly as unlikely in the US. Unfortunately, at the moment, that burgeoning anger will be fronted by the camel riders among us. The left (and especially youth) had better f’ing wake up before this happens, but I’m afraid they won’t. People like me or Zech might awake to find ourselves dissidents or exiles.

  • paulejb

    redlotuspetal68,

    So, piss off pubs!”

    Patrick Sartor will be undoubtedly adding you to his list of people to report. That is if he has any integrity at all.

  • paulejb

    patricksartor@3.10,

    That is odd, since I consume little time in replying to your comments. It is as if all you people here work from the same play book. Rarely do I see something original to which I need to reply.

  • robbert5

    How do you figure that General Petraes is not a politician, like he would have been able to get in this position without any political skills. You rw-ers just keep amazing me with your moronic ideas and “facts”.

  • paulejb

    patricksartor@21.29,
    .
    Careful, Pat. Keep this up and you may have to report yourself in three weeks.
    .
    As for Madame Defarge, here she is in all her glory…
    .

    .
    Judge for yourselves, folks, whether Pat’s spin holds any water.

  • paulejb
  • Paul-no not that one

    “somehow commenters who are the most critical of the democratic party/status quo have the highest burden to provide solutions. Apparently, moreso than partisans (blind or pragmatic alike).”
    .
    How so highest burden? Asking who one supports or what solutions they suggest -other than implicit understanding that FDR>BHO-isn’t asking too much.
    .
    You and I, and others, went through this last October and I honestly don’t think asking people who have complaints what their solutions are is unreasonable.

  • jgsr

    Unemployment benefits are 60% of what a person had been making. There might be 2, maybe 3 people in America that save 40% of what they are making.
    The 60% of previous income is enough to stay alive, but just barely.What there isn’t in that 60% is money to travel to where jobs are.
    There are always some number of jobs somewhere in the US. If the available jobs are too distant to remain where home currently is and commute, the job might as well be halfway around the world.
    What’s missing is the necessary money to travel where there is employment.
    An employer is not going to fund a completely new hire’s travel expenses as no new hire is guaranteed to work out, or continue to want to work at the new job.
    I know that is the problem and the answer is more money, but I don’t know of a single way to control abuse.
    I do know that someone living on 60% of their previous income has exactly ~0~ money to risk on travel that has no guaranteed employment.
    The 60% social safety net catches the unemployed and then traps them right where the net caught them.
    Was a business owner for 30 years and the worse waste of money is the amount that is not large enough to get the job done correctly.
    You are not saving 25% only buying 3 tires instead of the needed 4, you are losing every penny of the cost of the 3 tires.
    The 60% social safety net imprisons people where they were “saved” for a guaranteed 99 weeks.

  • paulejb

    patricksartor@25.2,

    “Which is why Clinton lead welfare reform…”

    Which is laughable since he had to be dragged kicking and screaming to the signing. He had vetoed two earlier editions of reform.

  • paulejb

    jgsr@27,

    How many people are working off the books while collecting unemployment?

  • http://jcapan.wordpress.com jcapan

    Paul, asking me or anyone else about who they support, how they’re going to vote or what solutions they might have is, of course, fine and dandy.
    .
    My point was that I’ve seen Apr make this comment about Zech and/or me a number of times now, and I don’t know why she’s not asking Shep or you for their ideas about how to wrest control of the dem party from the oligarchs.
    .
    I find it in some ways dismissive.

  • paulejb

    robbert5@1.8,
    .
    Really? Than why do liberals advocate programs that create a dependent class.
    .
    Welfare
    .
    Medicaid
    .
    Subsidized housing
    .
    Subsidized education
    .
    Food Stamps.
    .
    All are designed to make people wards of the state.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Fine:
    .
    http://thinkprogress.org/2009/08/07/pelosi-swastikas/
    .
    This contains photographs of Tea Party members holding swastikas.
    .
    The swastikas were in signs.
    .
    It’s like you all go to Right wing school.
    .
    At the front of the class “Hello everybody.”
    .
    “Hail teacher.”
    .
    “Today were are going to discuss how Obama is a Muslim.”
    .
    “Hail teacher!”.
    .
    So, I see the same OT argument over and over and over again.
    .
    Her accusation was 100% correct but, easy to misunderstand.
    .
    Paullie, if you are going to go straight from right wing indoctrination classes listening to AM Radio, watching Fox and reading all right wing blogs to here, you are going be far too annoying to be worth anybody’s time.
    .
    BTW it takes a little bit of time for me to respond because I make sure that I find reliable, accurate and truthful links and don’t just respond “because I said so” or link to, say, Michael Moore ( who is the liberal version of Rush Limbaugh: hugely fat, cherry picks facts, makes complete factual errors, earns tons of money but always entertains people who agree with him).

  • jgsr

    I have no idea as to a figure, but I’m sure there’s some.
    All I could add is that if an employer doesn’t report payments to a person, it’s a felony offense.
    I was never willing to go to jail to hide someone else’s income they didn’t want to report.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Which is laughable since he had to be dragged kicking and screaming to the signing.
    .

    THE TRANSITION: PLANS AND POLICIES; AIDES SAY CLINTON WILL SWIFTLY VOID G.O.P. INITIATIVES
    By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN,
    Published: November 6, 1992

    WASHINGTON, Nov. 5— President-elect Bill Clinton aims to convey an impression of boldness and change during his first days in the Oval Office by issuing a whirlwind of executive orders on abortion rights, White House perquisites and government ethics, his aides predict.
    [...]
    As for his other major legislative aims, including health-care and welfare reform and job training, Clinton aides have given themselves a 100-day deadline to submit legislation in these areas. But they do not expect passage that early.

    .
    http://www.nytimes.com/1992/11/06/us/transition-plans-policies-aides-say-clinton-will-swiftly-void-gop-initiatives.html?scp=1&sq=welfare+reform+Clinton&st=nyt
    .
    Now, it took me over over five minutes to find that since you, Paullie, seek only far right media sources and make claims with no outside sources
    .
    This is exactly how you can find your way onto my do not respond/is a wingnut troll list.
    .
    Fact Clinton wanted welfare reform before Republicans had even one plan for it.
    .
    Like I said, Republicans savored “welfare queens” as a strawman to run against but never came up with even one plausible solution since reforming welfare would give Republicans less to rail against.
    .
    Republicans often savor problems. Then Democrats solve those same problems.

  • paulejb

    patricksartor@21.25,
    .
    1. You cited a few of my comments with your ultimatum. When exactly was it that you found “flame” in my replies to you?
    .
    2. If you can not handle sharp elbows, you should perhaps not try this at home.
    .
    3. I always find flame wars tedious and a waste of time. That is why I do not indulge in them. I’ll leave the shouts of “moron” and “idiot” to others.
    .
    4. From your statement, it seems that your trials and tribulations are all self inflicted. If you are looking for sympathy than you have come to the wrong place. Perhaps Dr Phil has a blog spot where you might fit in.
    .
    5. It is true that I am not a “flame warrior” as you call it, but I have been known to make people regret that they ever took me on.

    6. I do find that I am developing a real feeling of fondness for Andrew Cuomo. Who woulda thunk it?
    .

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “How many people are working off the books while collecting unemployment?”
    .
    Five thousand, two hundred and twenty one – unless you include Dave who got paid $70 by his uncle to help him move to Wichita.
    .
    How many facts do you have to debate with, Paullie?
    .
    None?
    .
    No links, no argument.

  • paulejb

    patrickSartor@21.35,
    .
    You are a sly one, aren’t you, Pat. Even the sight impaired could see that your “swastikas” had either a slash through them or a “no” appended. That was entirely misrepresented in Madame Defarge’s statement.
    .
    I may be annoying but that is because I shine light on the usual agitprop peddled here. Propagandists hate when you call them on their fallacies. I think that I’ll just keep on doing what I am doing and let the chips fall where they may.
    .
    No one here has been able to point out any inaccuracies in my comments. And it’s not like I am ducking anyone. I take on all comers with the same zest.

  • paulejb

    patricksartor@25.5,

    How do you explain the two vetoes, Pat?
    .
    The welfare reform act of 1996 was a cornerstone of the Republican Contract With America.
    .
    Liberals predicted the apocalypse but welfare reform turned out to be the most effective law past in the 1990s.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    fact (fkt)
    n.
    1. Knowledge or information based on real occurrences: an account based on fact; a blur of fact and fancy.
    2.
    a. Something demonstrated to exist or known to have existed: Genetic engineering is now a fact. That Chaucer was a real person is an undisputed fact.
    b. A real occurrence; an event: had to prove the facts of the case.
    c. Something believed to be true or real: a document laced with mistaken facts.
    3. A thing that has been done, especially a crime: an accessory before the fact.
    4. Law The aspect of a case at law comprising events determined by evidence: The jury made a finding of fact.
    Idiom:
    in (point of) fact
    In reality or in truth; actually.
    [Latin factum, deed, from neuter past participle of facere, to do; see dh- in Indo-European roots.]
    Usage Note: Fact has a long history of usage in the sense “allegation of fact,” as in “This tract was distributed to thousands of American teachers, but the facts and the reasoning are wrong” (Albert Shanker). This practice has led to the introduction of the phrases true facts and real facts, as in The true facts of the case may never be known. These usages may occasion qualms among critics who insist that facts can only be true, but the usages are often useful for emphasis.

    The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
    fact [fækt]
    n
    1. an event or thing known to have happened or existed
    2. a truth verifiable from experience or observation
    3. a piece of information get me all the facts of this case
    4. (Law) Law (often plural) an actual event, happening, etc., as distinguished from its legal consequences. Questions of fact are decided by the jury, questions of law by the court or judge
    5. (Philosophy) Philosophy a proposition that may be either true or false, as contrasted with an evaluative statement
    (Law)
    after (or before) the fact Criminal law after (or before) the commission of the offence an accessory after the fact
    as a matter of fact, in fact, in point of fact in reality or actuality
    fact of life an inescapable truth, esp an unpleasant one
    the fact of the matter the truth
    [from Latin factum something done, from factus made, from facere to make]
    factful adj

    .
    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/fact
    .
    “All are designed to make people wards of the state.
    .

    de·sign (d-zn)
    v. de·signed, de·sign·ing, de·signs
    v.tr.
    1.
    a. To conceive or fashion in the mind; invent: design a good excuse for not attending the conference.
    b. To formulate a plan for; devise: designed a marketing strategy for the new product.
    2. To plan out in systematic, usually graphic form: design a building; design a computer program.
    3. To create or contrive for a particular purpose or effect: a game designed to appeal to all ages.
    4. To have as a goal or purpose; intend.
    5. To create or execute in an artistic or highly skilled manner.
    v.intr.
    1. To make or execute plans.
    2. To have a goal or purpose in mind.
    3. To create designs.
    n.
    1.
    a. A drawing or sketch.
    b. A graphic representation, especially a detailed plan for construction or manufacture.
    2. The purposeful or inventive arrangement of parts or details: the aerodynamic design of an automobile; furniture of simple but elegant design.
    3. The art or practice of designing or making designs.
    4. Something designed, especially a decorative or an artistic work.
    5. An ornamental pattern. See Synonyms at figure.
    6. A basic scheme or pattern that affects and controls function or development: the overall design of an epic poem.
    7. A plan; a project. See Synonyms at plan.
    8.
    a. A reasoned purpose; an intent: It was her design to set up practice on her own as soon as she was qualified.
    b. Deliberate intention: He became a photographer more by accident than by design.
    9. A secretive plot or scheme. Often used in the plural: He has designs on my job.

    .
    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/designed
    .
    Please send a link showing where and when Franklin Roosevelt and creators of The New Deal intentionally created a system for dependence upon government.
    .
    Next, please send a link showing, contradicting articles I have located in the past that any significant share of welfare recipients spend a significant portion of their life receiving benefits.
    .
    If not, then do understand why I say that you do not debate in good faith

    .

  • paulejb

    patricksartor@27.2,

    I merely posed a question, Pat. No need to get your panties all in a bunch. If you can answer the question, do so. If not, than just move on. I’ll get my answer elsewhere.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Liberals predicted the apocalypse but welfare reform turned out to be the most effective law past in the 1990s.”
    .
    Please send a link to such statements.
    .
    Here is how it is done:
    .
    Go to your favorite news publicans.
    .
    Find section called “archives”.
    .
    Use that section.
    .
    Set dates for 1996 and topic for “Democrats Welfare Reform” and find articles of “Liberals predicted the apocalypse…”
    .
    If that fails, go to your second favorite publication.
    .
    Repeat.
    .
    If that fails, go on to third, fourth, fifth…
    .
    When you get tired without finding a quote from Democrats saying this, you say, ” You know, Patrick, Clinton was, as he said, ‘third way’ as in not really that liberal. Also, many Democrats, also, wanted welfare reform. It wasn’t just the Republicans all alone.”
    .
    If not, do understand why you are wasting my time with debating in bad faith.

  • paulejb

    jgsr@28,

    Do you suppose it is costing the taxpayer thousands? Millions? Billions?

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    This is a dead point.
    .
    Could somebody have said exactly what Nancy Pelosi said without any intent to deceive?
    .
    Yes.
    .
    So, regardless of your opinion about her, is this an example of Nancy Pelosi attempting to deceive people .
    .
    Debate ends.
    .
    What else did Rushy tell you this morning you want to bring up as if it were facts?

  • diecash1

    Link to the other article I mentioned about the German economy and how their industrial practices led to a strong recovery:
    ..
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/23/AR2010112306280.html

  • paulejb

    patricksartor@25.7,
    .
    Here you go, Pat. As you requested…

    http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2003/02/the-continuing-good-news

    A complete list of liberal groups and their predictions of doom about welfare reform 1996.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “So, piss off pubs!”
    .
    Who’s “pubs”?
    .
    Not anad hominem attack.
    .
    Not off topic.
    .
    No claims to facts to need a link, just a statement of opinion.
    .
    Unless your full name is Paullie Pubs?
    .
    (Sounds like an English gangster like Owney Madden owner of the Cotton Club in Harlem decades ago)

  • 53_3

    I think paulejb is really trying to get a TP in here without looking like a direct insult to jgsr.
    .
    I would suggest that maybe, paulejb, if you are so concerned about fraud, then fund more enforcement.
    .
    This is a baby/bathwater issue…

  • 53_3

    I think he’s done an excellent job.
    .
    Speaking of pubs getting p!ssed off:
    .
    Obama’s numbers are going up

  • pintortwo

    No? Alright. Now if you said “ron paul is not a conservative” then I’d agree with you more.
    .
    If we’re talking about an ideology, I don’t think there’s much question that Paul is conservative. If we’re talking about being a member, like part of a team or club, then no he is not a conservative. He’s not invited to all the meetings, he doesn’t fit in.
    .
    Seems only during Democrat admins that he looks sorta reasonable on TV and in print. Previously he’s been treated more like a bit of a crackpot.. starting around April ’09 he became presentable. In fact, I saw (I think on GG’s blog) that around that time Beck began calling himself a “conservative libertarian”- paying homage to parts of the libertarian platform (well, mostly bashing freshly-inaugurated Obama) while ignoring less-convenient issues like Foreign Policy. Point is, Paul, his son and libertarians in general are now more mainstream. But he’s not a conservative, they wouldn’t want him to be President.

  • paulejb

    patricksartor@1.10,
    .
    I can see why you believe that responses to my posts are time consuming. All this bluster and bombast, yet you did not refute the point that such programs make the recipients “wards of the state,”

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Do you suppose it is costing the taxpayer thousands? Millions? Billions?”
    .
    Paullie,
    .
    Both parties in complete agreement that all – with no exceptions committing all kinds of fraud including hiring workers under the table get very severely punished .
    .
    So, no matter who is in what office more than one person will work under the table illegally and less than 100% will be prosecuted successfully.
    .
    Relative to those work over the table it is very rare to work under the table.
    .
    So, no facts = debating in bad faith = a waste of everybody’s time.

  • paulejb

    patricksartor@1.10,
    .
    I can see why you believe that responses to my posts are time consuming. All this bluster and bombast, yet you did not refute the point that such programs make the recipients “wards of the state.”

  • diecash1

    Unemployment benefits are 60% of what a person had been making.

    Where would you get a ridiculous idea like this? It’s absolutely untrue which makes the rest of your diatribe a joke. Each state sets a cap on the maximum amount of unemployment a person can receive. They do not just collect 60% of what they previously earned.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “If not, than just move on. I’ll get my answer elsewhere.”
    .
    Paullie Pubs,
    .
    You’ve got it backwards: First, you find facts. Second you post facts with a link.
    .
    Did you think somebody at 11:31 Easter Standard Time (only 8:31 PST) on a Saturday night just happens to be posting from work at the department of labor’s enforcement division just waiting to answer your question?
    .
    If not, you all by your lonesome, do a Google search, read and, if it is a point worth making post it.

  • paulejb

    patrickartor@21.38,
    .
    I accept your concession. It wasn’t gracious but it seemed sincere. You now seem willing to admit that words mean exactly what they say before the spin doctors get a hold of them.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    First, I had done so more than once before when you were not online.
    .
    This is what leads to the theory that at least some of you are paid trolls.
    .
    The same topic comes up over and over over again.
    .
    Second you not I came up with the argument that there was government dependence.
    .
    So, you do your homework first or expect to be ignored in the future as a troll.

  • jgsr

    Do you suppose it is costing the taxpayer thousands? Millions? Billions?

    I would imagine it is an insignificant amount of money.
    There’s fraud in every type of Gvt payouts. Nothing costs taxpayers what medicare fraud costs the Gvt.
    I feel we should have medicare, but the total lack of oversight on the largest sector of Gvt expenditures absolutely disgusts me. Every dollar of fraud prevented equals the same dollar more in taxes Congress feels citizens need to send to DC.
    As for those few that are drawing unemployment AND earning unreported income, there exists a positive in that situation. Those people are working, they are out and visible in the marketplace and by the fact they are visible, they are 10 times more likely to be hired for full time employment…..and be off benefits….than the unemployed people at home on the couch. Surely you know that the best way to find a job is to have a job.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “I consume little time in replying to your comments.”
    .
    That is because you have no regard for facts at all and put no thought into it since you are just parroting things you have heard from right wing sources.
    .
    You even showed me one of the right wing sources from last year which you came up with your ideas from.
    .
    So, if you don’t think or care about facts, shooting out meaningless words is incredibly easy.

  • paulejb

    patricksartor@26.2,
    .
    1. Now you are trying to be too cute by half. From the content of the comment, you can not miss the meaning of lotus petal’s invective.
    .
    2. Unlike you, I never take general invective, vituperation or venomous attacks personally. You have to call my name if you intend to insult me and then I will take whatever action I deem justified. By the way, that would not include crying to the moderators of the website.

    3. So, my friend, you will have to be a little more even handed in your outrage. Otherwise, you will just appear to be another partisan hack with an ax to grind.

  • paulejb

    53_3@26.3,
    .

    “Obama’s numbers are going up…”

    Going up to what? From dismal to pathetic?

  • 53_3

    If above 50% is pathetic, well then, by your standards…

  • 53_3

    See?
    .
    I said they can’t stand it!
    .
    Just proved my point…

  • paulejb

    Geez! You ask a question and people start leaping from the bushes in outrage. What’s with you people? Are you just itching for a fight?

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “You now seem willing to admit that words mean exactly what they say before the spin doctors get a hold of them.”
    .
    Yes, they meant that the Tea Partiers were carrying signs showing the president wearing a swastika.
    .
    For apologies, I am sorry to say that, despite refraining from ad homenim attacks, you lack the ability to debate.
    .
    I will not bother with your link from the notoriously right wing heritage foundation, either.
    .
    Your off the list of honest debaters from the right and on the list of trolls – maybe, if it makes you feel better, you can be called a troll lite rather than hardcore.
    .
    You will be ignored.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    53,
    .
    What upsets right wingers is, as Stephen Colbert said, accurately, “reality has a liberal bias”
    .
    Reality is, as you have seen me find before, even half of all Republicans supported single payer health care – far more liberal than this – before the Tea Party and other right wing panic groups were purchased by the Koch brothers, Rupert Murdoch and other far right corporate interests spontaneously rose in reaction to a black man in the white house the shock of having a government do what the people asked for instead of following orders from corporate oligarchs.
    .
    2012 looks like a good year for Democrats even if, unfortunately, 2011 and 2012 are going to be hard years for the economy.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    I shouldn’t but….
    .
    “Sorry, april, I am fully licensed and practicing in Atlanta, Ga. Board qualified in thoracic surgery, too.
    .
    I did a google search and found the website of six teaching hospitals in the Atlanta area.
    .
    I then went into the websites and looked for doctors named “Earl” and thoracic surgeons.
    .
    None had the first or last name “Earl.”
    .
    It was a quiet afternoon right after a deal I was working on didn’t close. So, I spent about 30 minutes checking up on our “doctor” “friend”.
    .
    I thought if I found Dr Earl I would be able to find the complaints about him on some website like Angie’s List and post them, but, he’s just a complete fraud.

  • diecash1

    No one here has been able to point out any inaccuracies in my comments.

    Your arrogance matches your delusion, I’ll grant you that. You’ve been slapped silly often here though you’re entirely too dishonest to admit as much.

  • jgsr

    diecash1

    …..Where would you get a ridiculous idea like this? It’s absolutely untrue which makes the rest of your diatribe a joke.

    No, I did not break down the different requirements as to length of employment, maximum and minimum earnings and several other factors that come into play before arriving at the 60% figure which is absolutely the law in Texas.
    Since I paid unemployment insurance for the 11 businesses I owned in Texas, I do know what the exact specifics are here in Texas.

    What rate do you pay for the businesses you own? What is the formula for unemployment in your State where your businesses are.

    I love learning new facts, tell me yours.

  • pintortwo

    jcapan “I find it in some ways dismissive”. From my perch it doesn’t seem that way. Naturally, liberals critical of the Dem party are more likely to have considered how to “wrest control of the dem party from the oligarchs”. Dem partisans believe they are independent of oligarchs and that the party has solutions. So rather than ask more partisan commenters for what would essentially be party answers, ask non-partisans what they would do.

  • 53_3

    As long as the economy keeps improving Obama won’t have a problem (and Dems, too).
    .
    Personally, despite the election, I think the tide has turned.
    .
    They can no longer play to their base with that shrill hatred, and that is going to make it very difficult to get their message across.
    .
    Didya notice how Obama handled the O’Reilly interview?

  • pintortwo

    Note on Iraq’s democracy.
    Some of the trouble with their last elections is directly attributable to none-other-than Ahmad Chalibi. He still has official capacity in Iraq, that lying POS. Maliki appointed him to head the Justice and Accountability Commission (savor the irony) ..where he eliminated Sunni candidates from running in the general elections (link), p!ssing-off Sunnis in the process. Apparently, he eliminated several hundred candidates before the Iraqis could even exercise their democratic right to vote. The elections were dubious before they happened.

  • 53_3

    It kind of lightly skips over the problem of what happens between jobs.
    .
    Although there are “shoulds”, the real world is not going to work that way.
    .
    Personally, if we want to stop abuse, fund enforcement. I don’t really buy the “imprisonment” argument. I’ve drawn unemployment from time to time and may need to again.
    .
    I wasn’t “imprisoned”. I’ve been at my current job for 11 years and hated being on unemployment.
    .
    I’m also not an exception to the rule. As I’ve pointed out, this is a baby/bathwater issue.
    .
    Without our safety nets (they can always be improved, (and they are not the biggest problem we have now, btw), we don’t need a return to Dickensian economy as some seem to want…

  • apr2563

    jcapan: I don’t like it when one person is singled out for the responsibility for the tone of this site.
    And, yes I have asked you and Stuart for some solutions and leadership.
    .
    Stuart seems to be doing something by his active voice in the Progrssive movement. I appreciate that. The reason I single you out for your suggestions is that you seem to have a particular disdain for centerists. I find myself agreeing most of the time. But, I would like to see something more positive in the way of defining your concepts.
    .
    Shep and many others here share their sources, discuss ideas, and actually can also be quite amusing.
    I enjoy the variety of concerns voiced here and the dialogue that may follow. The reactionaries here can be more than annoying, but they are everywhere.
    .
    I am not being dismissive of your opinions. I would be happy if we found a new FDR. But give us more than dread and criticism. I am only speaking for myself and hope you understand I do respect your point of view.

  • rdw56

    If wingnut activity does not go down by Saturday, March 5th, you’ll join me in petitioning WordPress to ban aad hominem attacks.

    ****************************************

    Are you out of your mind? You of all people.

  • rdw56

    For RDW56, I have this mental image of a kid with very severe ADDHD I went to school with when we were 8 and 9 years old.

    *****************************************************

    Ready to ban yourself?

  • rdw56

    It was Germany’s many industrial and social policies that, if they were enacted here you would scream “SOCIALISM!”, allowed them to weather the economic storm and recover faster than the U.S.

    *************************************************************
    Actually I scream ‘low growth’. We know this because US per capita incomes are near $45K in the USA and $33K in Germany and the entire EU. This is with the USA providing their defense. German’s advantage today, and Canada, is they don’t have Obama taking over their auto industry and running 12% deficits and blocking trade and drilling. Merkle and Harper have both been moving their countries in the opposite direction pruning their taxes, regulations and social programs.

  • rdw56

    They are set up fundamentally differently than we are and as such, the remedy is different

    ***********************************************

    The difference is Merkle. Both France and Germany are trying to reverse the slow growth/welfare policies adapted more than 30 years ago. Merkle has a head start and after a few short steps that improved the economy has become more popular with more power. Harper in Canada is also ahead of Sarko in France who has a more difficult environment but is also making progress. It’s supremely ironic Obama is chasing Europe when they’re moving away from their old model.

  • rdw56

    This is what leads to the theory that at least some of you are paid trolls.

    ************************************************

    Whqt is this nonsense? This is beyond paranoid. Time had a small and very limited audience. Swampland is tiny. Are there 30 different people posting here? You are crazy Patrick.

  • tbrownjt

    “In our country, the governed have consented to the establishment of an old-age pension plan called Social Security. They have consented to Medicare and Medicaid. They have consented to have an FDA and EPA and SEC and OSHA and the IRS.”

    Gee-I don’t remember having the chance to vote on any of those things, does anyone else here remember doing that? I never consented to any of those that I was around for, when they were enacted. And they were enacted, not voted on, meaning you didn’t have a chance to consent.

    And the more left wing Dems DO have a propensity to tell citizens how to live, via legislation. I worked in Mass. and lived in NH in the mid-80′s when Dukakis was governor. When the feds removed the 55mph mandate established in the Carter years, he kept the 55mph speed limit in place for another 5 to 10 years. When the feds mandated (read mandated, not consented to by us citizens, Mr Klein) a right turn on red law, Dukakis spent 2 million bucks on signs to post every intersection forbidding it. When you drove into Mass. from any other state, you faced a plethora of threatening signs from all the legislation he passed-it was laughable.

    No one knew more about how we should all live our lives, and no one spent more taxpayers money making us all criminals for not conforming to his vision, than Michael Dukakis. And now we have Obama, whom I honestly thought would be different and convinced me with his oratory skills he had it right. How wrong I was!

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Now everybody here can see that no matter what anybody shows or proves to RDW56 he will revert to the right wing talking point that Europe is going towards American Republican style austerity.
    .
    We could bring Merkel here and tell him that she considers herself far more liberal than Obama on economic issues and he would claim that she was lying.

  • newfreedomblog

    Gee-I don’t remember having the chance to vote on any of those things, does anyone else here remember doing that?
    .
    Nope, but that is what our liberal friends want us to do. SS is nothing more than a big ponzi scheme. One the liberals of this country have used to keep people enslaved and dependent on their big government programs.
    .

    “And now we have Obama, whom I honestly thought would be different and convinced me with his oratory skills he had it right. How wrong I was!”

    .
    Glad that you have recognized exactly what Obama and the vast majority of liberals are all about. What their motives are, and their agenda.
    .
    Hopefully you have become involved with your local Tea Party. We will right this ship out of control for the past 80 years, we will return America back to it’s founding principles.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    FWIW: RDW, you remind me of that child who couldn’t sit still, was getting thrown out of class for getting out of his seat every two minutes and was unable to listen for more than five to ten sentence because you seem sincere but just plain unaware.
    .
    You make pronouncements highly similar in content to Paullie, but with less focus and highly similar to Freeinpa, Rusty, Earl, 3xfire3 and Ricardo4max without the obvious maliciousness towards other posters.
    .
    When you start to lose an argument you have two annoying tricks which are not legitimate in debate:
    .
    Either you change the topic from what you are failing to present a good argument for to something else ( Ronald Reagan, Israel and the Vietnam War are among your favorites) or you redefine what group of people you consider defending such as your bizarre and totally unsubstantiated claim that Ronald Reagan was the only conservative president in US history.
    .
    This is a massive time waster.
    .
    If you refuse to look at any news sources which do not cherry pick for the far right, distort thing for the far right and/or talk about the same Republican/Tea Party talking points over and over, then why would you be happy to be debating with centrist leaning conservatives, reasonable libertarians, centrists and liberals?
    .
    You seem to be very, very, very content with your right side only bent world. So, you can hear your own echo just fine on Redstate among other places.
    .
    There are several – although not many – who are both reasonable conservatives and willing to post.
    .
    One, Exiled, ends up debating against you since your arguments are so often so unsound that it is insulting to some conservatives to see you wiggle around, change topics and redefine everything.
    .
    So, you should be able to see why you don’t make the cut as a reasonable debater despite the fact that you usually refrain from insults.
    .
    Your childish and extremely disorganized debating style reminds me of that child I knew when I, also, was a child.
    .
    If you are able to stick to one and only one topic and are refusing to do so, then, maybe you are just an intentional distraction and frustration.

  • newfreedomblog

    “DEAR HIGH SHERIFFS:” (or Hall Monitor Wannabes)

    I love the rational and sane leftist-“wingers” on this site. They love to not only denounce, deride, and ridicule those of us on the right, but their elitist roots shine brightly when they are denouncing, deriding or ridiculing one of their own. Evidence, the following:
    .

    ”Listen, Pat, I get that you relish the fights. And you’re hardly the only one to engage the rightwingers, but you are, bar none, the principal reason why partisan insult-athons have become the most prominent feature of the Swamp in recent months.”

    .
    Then WHAM, the true elitists shines through. ”they almost never” as in they are to stupid to figure out what I am saying.
    .

    ”But I’m not interested in petitioning WordPress to do much of anything. Rusty & co. almost never respond to my comments b/c, naturally, I don’t sink to their level. Nothing is to be gained by engagement with these folks (nope, as your theory for the world is so polar opposite of ours we could never come to any conclusion other than, “we can agree to disagree”). Apol, N-R, they’re a different breed of animal.”

    .
    Nah, jcapan. It is a simple fact that what you and zechman spout off the vast majority of the time is some radical leftist theory of ’centrism is the root of all evil in the parties, and we will change the ideology of the Democrat Party’ . I could care less how many Democrats are considered to be ‘Centrist’, I just wished there were more of them to be honest. They mostly roll over and want you to pat their bellies for attention anyways.
    .
    But, I do appreciate that you have finally come out of your closet. That you have identified the likes of pattysartor, and reprimanded him. He needed it very much. You make a very good hall monitor, perhaps you should take that on from now on instead of your rants which mostly do not make a lick of sense.

  • rdw56

    join me in petitioning WordPress to ban aad hominem attacks.

    ***********************************************************

    Let’s focus in here Pat. It’s a simple question. Are you going to petition to ban yourself?

    Besides the obvious hypocrisy how about growing a pair. You are the classic open-minded lib. Ban everything you don’t like hearing. You are an a-hole. Go ahead, file a petition you twit.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Sat Jun 17, 2006 at 12:01 PM EDT
    The Low Spark of Well-Heeled Trolls
    Ever wonder why “do not feed the trolls” was such an ineffective way to address the problem?

    How is it that such dullards can ruin the most intelligent of message board discourse?

    From Pandagon

    What a lot of us suspected–that conservative trolls that seem to generate knee-jerk right wing talking points are just plants that are put there by the endless stream of right wing money earmarked for propaganda–looks like it’s probably true. People are reporting that they’re getting these comments from people that are coming from this company called Netvocates. The company sells itself as a company that will defend your organization’s reputation by sending people to fill blog comments with defenses. The blurb from the site is quite telling:

    For many organizations, blogs represent an uncomfortable topic. Unlike traditional communication mediums, blogs frequently impact an organization and its products and image in uncontrolled and often unexpected ways. In addition, the sheer volume of blogs, message boards, and other discussion forums makes it difficult for organizations to effectively monitor the activity relevant to them.
    This company appears to work predominantly for corporations that are attempting to mitigate damage by people who are criticizing their practices and marketing on the internet. But there’s also a group called the Rendon Group that is all about controlling public opinion on government actions that people are reporting on their site meters. Considering that the Rendon Group has contracts from BushCo to spread pro-war propaganda, it’s hard to imagine that they aren’t also targeting left-leaning blogs, possibly trying to circumvent productive anti-war discussion by bomb-throwing and other nonsense. Something to keep an eye out for–if you have right wing trolls that only comment on certain topics, especially if they just generate generic talking points, there’s a solid chance they are a troll-for-hire.

    While most of us attempt to restrain ourselves from “feeding the trolls” many of them, in fact, could be “nourished” by the “endless stream of rightwing money”.Ignore them or not, tehy have plenty of impetus to come and soil what is one of the Blogoshpere’s greatest strengths – unfettered public discourse. The Troll-for-Hire is there to destroy it whatever one does.

    The reference to “traditional communication mediums” catches my eye because it further reinforces how much companies and other entities rely on the MSM to “look the other way” on a panoply of issues that can curtail profits and eventually, as we saw with Ford and the Gay issue, hold them actually accountible.

    Now we have Paid provacatuers roaming (should I have said “Roving”?) about despoiling, hijacking, and ruining many useful discussions.
    I noticed a post from Kos recently that addressed “sockpuppets” and that banning them was the choice of how to deal with it. That is likely the best route for handling it. Kos, of course, has a one week waiting period before a person can post, which is good, but little more effective than Georgia’s “No Liquor Sales on Sunday” laws. People buy on Saturday!

    At Smirking Chimp threads that fall vicitm to these trolls are usually locked and the user ID, almost always begun the same date as their disasterous Post # 1, are blocked.

    So, macking Traffic’s fine song, “it isn’t the locking that brings down a thread

    it’s the Low Spark of Well-Heeled Trolls”.

    .
    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/06/17/219712/-The-Low-Spark-of-Well-Heeled-Trolls
    .

    so ive often wondered how many people on any given message board or comment thread are in fact paid to post what they do by a certain org pushing a certain agenda. i decided to do some googling to see what i could come up with on the subject. here’s what ive found so faar:

    Quote:
    What You Need to Know About Paid Posting
    Do you regularly use the internet? If so, there is a good chance that you belong to at least one online message board community, also commonly referred to as an online forum. In fact, you may even be a member of multiple online community boards. Messages boards can be fun, exciting, and educational. You might even have made online friends. The only question is do you really know who you are talking to? With the increasing popularity of paid to post forum posters, you might not have a clue.

    Paid posters, as you likely assumed, are individuals who are paid to participate in online discussions. In most cases, they are paid by the individual or company who owns the online message board or message forum in question. Paid posters are used to generate interest in an online community. Once interest has been raised it is likely that others will join. If a message board is being used to generate income, paying a small number of posters is a great way to get the ball rolling.

    What many individuals mistakenly believe is that they can spot a paid poster from a mile away. The reality is that you cannot, in most cases. Paid forum posters are paid to create discussions, but blend in with the rest of the crowd. You may carryon multiple conversations with a forum poster and never once realize that they were being paid to post. The only time where you may be able to notice is if they disappear. Many paid forum posters are paid to only post for a specific period of time. After that time period is up, many paid poster move on to other business opportunities.

    “So, a few people get paid to post online, what is the big deal?” If that is what you are saying, you are definitely not alone. Many individuals believe that paid to post forum posters aren’t causing any harm. While this is true in most cases, it depends. What type of message forum do you frequently visit? Are you seeking relationship advice, looking for career opportunities, or looking for advice on another serious issue? If so, it is important that you take the information you receive with a grain of salt. It is difficult, if not impossible, to determine whether or not you are receiving genuine information or information from an individual who is getting paid to post whatever they want or even a particular opinion.

    Since you typically cannot tell who you are speaking to on an online message board or forum, you are advised to proceed with caution. Watch what you say and not taking what you are told to heart and you should be alright on any message boards, whether the participants are being paid to post or not.

    this is from: http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/99961/paid_posters_are_you_talking_to_one_pg2.html?cat=35

    questionable source which is likely why the focus of the “paid posters” is those that might be hired by the message board host/owner themselves, which isnt what i had thought of when thinking this. but im sure this exists too.

    i wuz wondering what others thoughts/knowledge/sources are on this subject.

    gracias.

    .
    http://vigilantcitizen.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6254&view=previous&sid=a524ad4fac9763a5578a8b454ba4cf28
    .

    The Rendon Group (TRG) is a trailblazer in the application of communications strategies to global information and outreach efforts. For three decades in 97 countries, TRG has been known as a leader in a diverse number of specialized services that are utilized by the world’s most powerful corporations and governments:
    [...]
    Social Media Marketing

    The Rendon Group (TRG) is a thought leader in the realm of non-traditional communications for Fortune 10 corporations as well as in the use of new technologies and techniques for reaching key audiences. TRG works with clients to implement word-of-mouth marketing and the use of new media tools as part of comprehensive strategic communications plans that identify, track and penetrate hard to access audiences. Whether it is opinion leaders or consumers, local or global, TRG can rapidly pin-point key communications vectors across traditional and social media and help provide multiple desired effects for our clients.

    .
    http://www.rendon.com/services/
    .
    They are out there.
    .
    I just have no way of knowing 100% if they are here or not.

  • michaelfury
  • rohalz

    Many things about Paul trouble me including the appearance he gives of being in the pockets of the corporatocracy and the wealthy elites. Many of his comments have indicated a racist tint as well.

    Fundamentally, all societies operate on a “social contract” whereby the people accept the rult of law in return for governance that improves their lives in ways an anarchy cannot. Libertarianism is a form of anarchy, as it leaves people mostly to the own devices.

    When the governing authority abuses the social contract, especially through implimenting autocracy (which, by-the-way, is always “right-wing”) the public eventually rises up as we have been witnissing in Egypt, Tunesia, and throughour the Middle East.

    The social safety net, including health care reform, which has not yet evolved to the single payer system the majority want, is vital to the social contract. Paul and his Tea Party friends actually seem to want to make the US less democratic, to rip up the social contract, and to regress American society to a state like that which existed in early post-industrial feudalism.
    They don’t want rules and regulations protecting workers, consumers, the environment, etc.

    The Republican Party must purge itself of these people or risk becoming marginalized – the inevitable outome that will start to happen as we witness how this group runs and ruins the states it won the the most recent election.

  • michaelfury

    “Paul’s libertarianism is as extreme a form of conservatism as there can be”

    As “extreme” as this?

    http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2010/06/15/unipolar-disorder/

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor


    .
    Whqt is this nonsense? This is beyond paranoid.
    .
    The greatest trick paid trolls ever pulled was convincing blogs that they don’t exist.
    .
    Nobody ever saw Rendon’s group. Nobody knows anybody who works for them….
    .
    ( Sorry, that was one of my favorite movies of all time – one of the few where I spent two whole minutes at the end saying WTF just happened – not that you work for the devil, I don’t believe he exists)

  • tbrownjt

    newfreedomblog:
    Actually, I’ve voted repub. since the 70′s, up through 2000. After screaming and writing letter after letter over Bushes drum beating to invade Iraq, I voted Dem twice. Now I don’t vote-all done-but I continue to “vote” by writing against the wrongs. This country’s political system has been SO usurped by money, it’ll take an uprising like Egypt’s to “right this ship” as you put it. We lost our Republic when we “consented” (what a joke of a statement THAT is on Klein’s part) to be taxed almost 100 years ago. Once they gained access to our money, we were doomed and set course for where we are today. When and if that uprising happens here, I will be there.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Gee-I don’t remember having the chance to vote on any of those things, does anyone else here remember doing that? I never consented to any of those that I was around for, when they were enacted. And they were enacted, not voted on, meaning you didn’t have a chance to consent.”
    .
    But, your parents, grandparents or great grandparents either did or, if you are more closely related to immigrants they chose this country and voted with their feet
    .
    By your reasoning, every single program from Social Security to the existence of the FBI must be voted upon every two years.
    .
    If not every two years, people 18 through 20 years old will not have the chance to vote on any of those things .
    .
    I’ll ask my 97 year old great uncle if he had become a Republican before or after he first voted in 1934 to see if he voted for any of those things but, I promise you he had friends who did. ( he is a Republican who spent his first 65 years in Manhattan, so, if he didn’t have friends who were Democrats, he would have been a very lonely man – which he wasn’t at all)

  • michaelfury

    “even Dick Cheney seems pleased these days”

    —————————————

    http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2010/10/12/this-ever-burning-chair/

  • rdw56

    We could bring Merkel here and tell him that she considers herself far more liberal than Obama on economic issues and he would claim that she was lying.

    ********************************************************

    She didn’t nationalize anyone or try to pass tax increases or massive stimulus plans driving 12% deficits. You have no idea what Merkle will say. We can see what each has done. Merkle is creating jobs by going in the opposite direction as Obama. It was Merkle who corrected Obama’s designed statement from the G-8, reversed it and passed the reversal.

    It’s Obama now running in reverse trying to pretend to be business friendly. Too little, too late, too superficial.

  • diecash1

    For starters, you mentioned nothing about a specific state. If you’re going to make such a claim, you should point that out and back it up. You provided no substantiation.
    ..
    Second, Texas doesn’t have a maximum UI benefit? It would seem that they do:

    If you earned enough money to qualify, it tells you the 12-month period your claim will be in effect, which is your benefit year. Your benefit year stays in effect for those dates even if you are disqualified or you receive all of your benefits. In other words, the money may run out before the year is over. The statement also gives your potential benefit amounts. The weekly benefit amount is the amount we can pay you for one full week of unemployment. Your maximum benefit amount is the total amount we can pay during your benefit year. Your weekly benefit amount will be between $60 and $415 depending upon the wages you earned.

    http://www.twc.state.tx.us/ui/bnfts/claimant1.html#benefits
    ..
    There is no mention of 40% of wages anywhere. Perhaps you can substantiate that claim. Regardless, you’re certain that no one that collects UI in Texas made over $1040 per week? It seems pretty unlikely rendering your point moot. Those that earned more are then collecting less than 60% of their previous income when unemployed.
    ..

    The 60% social safety net imprisons people where they were “saved” for a guaranteed 99 weeks.

    So your solution is what precisely? Higher UI payments, lower UI payments, none at all? I see a lot of complaining with no solutions offered. Perhaps that’s what you were going for.

  • rdw56

    Ready to ban yourself?

    ****************************************

    Not going to answer are you? Come on Pat. You got caught with your fly down and your little weenie handing out. Man up and admit the obvious. BTW: When is that 3-week break going to start?

  • diecash1

    Gee-I don’t remember having the chance to vote on any of those things, does anyone else here remember doing that?

    Yeah, they have these things every so often called elections and when you vote (or not), you’ve made the choice. That’s how the system works, like it or not.

  • diecash1

    She didn’t nationalize anyone

    Despite your implication, neither did Obama.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Jgsr,
    .
    You seem to be an honest debater.
    .

    How much jobless pay would you get?

    Your benefits could vary widely depending on where you live (and sometimes, whether children count on your income). A chart below shows benefits by state.
    [Related content: savings, health insurance, recession, jobs, economy]
    By MSN Money staff and wire reports

    Could you live on less than $300 a week? The average unemployment check in the U.S. is $293.
    [...]

    Don’t forget that benefits are taxable, and taxes typically are not withheld automatically. The stimulus law exempts the first $2,400 of jobless pay from federal taxes.

    That law also reimburses 65% of the cost of COBRA health insurance payments for the first nine months of unemployment. That’s a huge benefit for those with children because the full cost of a family-of-four policy can be more than $12,000 a year.
    [...]
    About 38% of those currently unemployed are receiving benefits. The remainder have exhausted their benefits already or never qualified in the first place because they were self-employed, fired for cause or worked only part time.

    Weekly unemployment benefits by state
    State
    Maximum
    Alabama

    $255

    Montana

    $407

    Alaska

    $370

    Nebraska

    $308

    Arizona

    $240

    Nevada

    $362

    Arkansas

    $409

    New Hampshire

    $427

    California

    $450

    New Jersey

    $584

    Colorado

    $475

    New Mexico

    $455

    Connecticut

    $519

    New York

    $405

    Delaware

    $330

    North Carolina

    $494

    District of Columbia

    $359

    North Dakota

    $385

    Florida

    $275

    Ohio

    $372

    Georgia

    $330

    Oklahoma

    $392

    Hawaii

    $545

    Oregon

    $482

    Idaho

    $362

    Pennsylvania

    $539

    Illinois

    $385

    Rhode Island

    $528

    Indiana

    $390

    South Carolina

    $326

    Iowa

    $443

    South Dakota

    $285

    Kansas

    $423

    Tennessee

    $275

    Kentucky

    $415

    Texas

    $378

    Louisiana

    $284

    Utah

    $444

    Maine

    $496

    Vermont

    $409

    Maryland

    $380

    Virginia

    $378

    Massachusetts

    $628

    Washington

    $541*

    Michigan

    $365

    West Virginia

    $424

    Minnesota

    $566

    Wisconsin

    $363

    Mississippi

    $230

    Wyoming

    $387

    Missouri

    $320

    .
    http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/SavingandDebt/LearnToBudget/how-much-jobless-pay-would-you-get.aspx
    .
    Huge differences from state to state and a pretty low ceiling considering that many good wage earners lost their jobs.
    .
    Although usually far, far more than welfare 38% of the unemployed are hurting badly despite benefits while 62% are hurting even worse with no benefits at all.
    .
    This is why there has been a call for government hiring on regular government projects to get the money flowing into households. This will release pent up demand and resulting spending on private, for profit businesses who, when faced with enough orders, will, themselves, hire people.

  • rdw56

    Michael Moore ( who is the liberal version of Rush Limbaugh: hugely fat, cherry picks facts, makes complete factual errors, earns tons of money but always entertains people who agree with him).

    ************************************************************

    MM is nothing like Limbaugh. MM abuses his audience because they’re stupid. MM tours Europe to open his film Farenheight 9/11 telling every audience how stupid Americans are. He doesn’t pick out conservatives. He’s talking about Americans. ABC protected you from that image. You might get the wrong idea so they filter unpleasant things for you. Fox played it though, again and again. He was such the talk of the town with his movie the anti-capitalist pocketed over $100M (recently filed suit to get another $20M0 AND he got a seat in the Presidents box at the Convention. Bill Clinton won’t sit with Jimmy Carter so it was Jimmy Carter and Michael Moore. Could you find a better pair to represent liberalism?

    Rush is a star. He’s very good at that he does. He’s also an honest man who believes in conservatism and loves America. MM might be the sleaziest guy in the country.

    Do you know your description of Moore better fits Gore? Albert is toast. Checkout wattsupwiththat.com for daily updates of the Arctic Ice Cap and all sorts of GW data. Poor Albert, that Ice Cap isn’t going anywhere. It’s the same size it was 5 years ago. I think he’s got one year left on his prediction? He’s absolutely, positively going to be wrong. Think ABC will cover it? Not too worry. Aside from liberals we’ll know.

  • diecash1

    Rush is a star. He’s very good at that he does. He’s also an honest man who believes in conservatism and loves America.

    If this kind of unadulterated idiocy doesn’t demonstrate your ideological blinders to you, then nothing will.
    ..
    He’s an honest man? Yeah, in bizzaro world. You must share a ZIP code with him if you believe that.

  • rdw56

    Sorry, I don’t share a zip code. I respect success. He’s far, far more honest than Joe Klein and vastly more influential. He’s an authentic conservative with very keen political instincts.

  • rdw56

    This is why there has been a call for government hiring on regular government projects to get the money flowing into households.

    *********************************************

    Except as we learned from the New Deal this doesn’t work. We need to get the private sector moving so they hire and the way to do that is get out of their way.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    RUSH is nothing like Michael Moore. RUSH abuses his audience because they’re stupid. RUSH sits on his ass instead of touring the world to lie to his audience telling every audience how stupid Americans and blacks are. He doesn’t pick out liberals. He’s talking about Americans. Fox protected you from that image. You might get the wrong idea so they filter unpleasant things for you. ABC played it though, again and again. He was such the talk of the town with his radio show anti-American pocketed millions (he got a seat in the Presidents box at the Convention. John Boehner won’t sit with George W Bush so it was Limbaugh and Bush. Could you find a better pair to represent conservatism?
    Moore is a star. He’s very good at that he does. He’s also an honest man who believes in liberalism and loves America. RUSH might be the sleaziest guy in the country.
    Do you know your description of Rush better fits Anthony Watts? Anthony is toast. Checkout http://www.algore.com/ for daily updates. Poor Watts, that NYC had the hottest summer in decades with the worst Winter since 1925. Think Fox will cover it? Not too worry. Aside from right wingers we’ll know.

  • rdw56

    huh?

  • rdw56

    As long as the economy keeps improving Obama won’t have a problem

    *****************************************************

    Actually he will because it’s not moving fast enough to bring down unemployment and the deficit. Further you have a problem at the state level whereby many of the fiscally conservative states are doing well and this will highlight the disaster of huge deficits at the federal level.

    Also note Obama isn’t giving up on spending and he’s trying to help the worse off states at the expense of the smart states. No one outside CA and NY wants to bailout NY and CA. You can bet the Senate race in VA will be spending a lot of time debating the cost to VA taxpayers for bailing out other states. This of course is a big edge for the GOP in the house, senate and presidential races.

    The economy is getting better but it’s taken far too long and cost far too much. Obama thinks he’s going to bash the house as scrooges for cutting spending. Outside CA and NY this is an issue if he doesn’t show leadership on he will be gone.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “90 percent of economists are closet Keynesians.”
    .
    http://www.twincities.com/lotterman/ci_17037065?nclick_check=1
    .
    So, I guess you still live in a shanty in Central Park with no running water.
    .
    The New Deal began the project.
    .
    It was too little spending.
    .
    World War II spending did the job.

  • allthingsinaname

    Well we had one very good day here at swampland. All good things come to an end.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    RDW,
    .
    Care to reply to 41.3?
    .
    I took your post, did a find and replace on Microsoft Word, made a couple of more changes and this is what you get: what more Americans believe about Limbaugh and Moore.
    .
    Now, tell me did this:
    .
    A) Make a sound argument.
    .
    Or
    .
    B) Make noise.
    .
    ( Hint, it is not A)
    .
    If don’t like reading 41.3, how do you think people feel about reading your remarks?
    .
    Moore is more popular than Limbaugh. I, as most self described liberals, come to my own conclusions and will not defend Moore as a part of a team I belong to. He screws up and cherry picks to make his point and I do not approve of that but do like his movies for entertainment.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    You do I hope understand why I say you are not a legitimate debater and this is why I will ignore you and recommend that others do, too.

  • newfreedomblog

    So true, tbrownjt. Couldn’t agree more with what you have said.
    .
    The size and scope of government has now gotten so large that it is totally un-manageable in my mind. This is one of the main reasons I am a proponent of returning the power (and money) back to the local level. To decrease the size of the Federal government to the very basics of a centralized, and the purpose envisioned by the founding fathers. Safety, Security, and the basic glue which binds all of the 50 States together to manage commerce.
    .
    Our progressive friends have year after year, for the past 80 or so years if not a 100, have pursued a Federal government which regulates everything we do in our daily lives. Everything we eat, drink, or decide to do as an individual. All for power and control. Each State should have these powers. That way if a State has less restrictions on their citizens, I can also “vote” with my feet. We are seeing that right now occurring with the proposals for State Compacts and how healthcare is going to be handled going forward in those States contemplating a State Compact.
    .
    But overall, the Federal Government has grown so large that the Trillions of dollars collected in taxes, and spent is no longer manageable. It must be cut back, and those dollars returned to the States and the people on the local level.
    .
    If New York wants to grant Unions and allow Teachers to get away with highway robbery and murder, so be it. Then let New York pay for their own mistakes. Why should I bail them out for their bad or poor decisions?

  • 53_3

    “Actually he will because it’s not moving fast enough to bring down unemployment and the deficit.”
    .
    Obviously, I disagree, but I will say that his numbers back my contention up.
    .
    As for “bringing down unemployment” no one has ever, in as severe economic times as these accomplished it before. I’m referring to FDR’s failure to bring down unemployment during the Great Depression.
    .
    “Further you have a problem at the state level whereby many of the fiscally conservative states are doing well and this will highlight the disaster of huge deficits at the federal level.”
    .
    Being fiscally conservative is not all bad. Some “liberal” states, like mine, have been “fiscally conservative”.
    .
    It’s a matter of how far and who bears the brunt of that “fiscal conservatism”. Do we cut services to the poor while handing more money to the rich?
    .
    Problem here, rdw, is we have different views on equity issues:
    .
    You can start throwing TPs, but they aren’t any more worthy of comment than leaves on the ground:
    The ground is littered with them….
    .
    Keep in mind that your POV is too far different than mine:
    .
    You believe in “entitlement imprisonment”, “income redistribution”, “equity issues” and “trickle down” without ever really considering the ramifications of any of them – your ideology is “one size fits all” and woe be those who disagree.
    .
    And I do disagree.
    .
    A good example of an unintended consequence of a rigid ideology without remeasure:
    .
    There is the beginnings of a revolt by a very blue King County, WA over being a taxation “cash cow” for the very red counties of eastern and southwestern WA.
    .
    This revolt is being led by a Republican. In a way, it shouldn’t be surprising, but here is the crux:
    .
    If the taxation landscape changes do to tax revolts like this one (and I doubt that this is the only place it is happening), then the very red counties, whose tax base is not large enough to support their infrastructure, will lose funding.
    .
    Now, to follow up, what do you think would happen in those very red counties?
    .
    Do you really understand the ramifications of this?
    .
    Do you think that you can rationalize it away as an exception when it is in fact one of the deepest-lying layers of the foundation of equity based egalitarianism built into the distribution end of our taxation infrastructure?
    .
    Are you going to try and rationalize a difference between this equity issue and other equity issues?
    .
    Would you be able to do it without tripping over simple favoritism toward people who happen to be rural?
    .
    Questions, questions.
    .
    We just have to disagree on this one…

  • earljr1

    You are such a dunce, fatpatrick, my middle name is Earl, from a highly esteemed Uncle who was killed in Vietnam. He was awarded a silver star for valor and I carry the name with honor.
    Reading over these posts, I see the conservatives (and some of the liberals) are ripping you to shreds, as usual. You are over matched, fatboy, so why don’t you call it a day and ingest a few more cheeseburgers.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “my middle name is Earl…”
    .
    And my middle name is Patrick.
    .
    If you used it, there would be a doctor named “J. Earl… [something]” (or D, E, F…..Earl [something]).
    .
    So, your father’s middle name is the same as your uncle’s first name?
    .
    “Jr” means that you share the same first, middle and last name as your father.
    .
    You are not a Thoracic surgeon in Altanta- end of story.
    .
    You are a hot tempered man who may be a paid troll or with some strange psychiatric twist which makes you wish to both insult and be insulted by people.
    .

    Almost everyone has some narcissistic traits, but being conceited, argumentative, or selfish sometimes (or even all the time) doesn’t amount to a personality disorder. Narcissistic Personality Disorder is a long-term pattern of abnormal thinking, feeling, and behavior in many different situations. The traits on this page will seem peculiar or disturbing when someone acts this way — i.e., you will know that something is not right, and contact with narcissists may make you feel bad about yourself. It’s not unusual for narcissists to be outstanding in their field of work. But these are the successful people who have a history of alienating colleagues, co-workers, employees, students, clients, and customers — people go away mad or sad after close contact with narcissists.
    How many narcissists does it take to change a light bulb?
    (a) Just one — but he has to wait for the whole world to revolve around him.
    (b) None at all — he hires menials for work that’s beneath him.
    This is a compilation of observations I’ve made from various people I’ve known well for many years. Most of these traits apply to all of the narcissists I’ve known, but that doesn’t mean that they’ll all apply to the narcissists you know. My narcissists are all high-functioning — that is, they’ve maintained gainful employment, marriages and family life — and there may certainly be narcissistic traits that I haven’t observed among the narcissists I’ve known.

    .
    http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/traits.html
    .
    If you are not a paid troll, then this is the most likely scenario.
    .
    I am still leaning toward paid troll since your behavior is so very strange.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “The greatest trick paid trolls ever pulled was convincing blogs that they don’t exist.”
    .
    But the fact is that they do exist.
    .
    Time is the most popular news magazine in America right now.
    .
    So, if paid trolls were hired to go after a political website then Swampland would be on the list.
    .
    I do not know for a fact if a political group has hired such a company, but, the fact is that they could do so with the massive amounts of money the far right causes have from corporate backing.
    .
    Explain why Freeinpa would spend eleven hours a day between five and seven days a week in flame wars if he was not paid to do so or suffered from some kind of a psychiatric disorder.
    .
    I am aware that both are possibilities.
    .
    For you, there are two scenarios:
    .
    First, you are either many years into your marriage or divorced with no children or grown children who, has nothing to do for random long stretches of time. You are inexperienced and unprepared for political debate, but, everything on TV right now is boring you to tears. So, you spend many consecutive hours at a time on Swampland during those random times.
    .
    Second you are, as most are due to the market for such, a failed fiction writer hard up for work who responded to an ad for professional writing. You created a detailed personal biography so as not to contradict yourself and followed instructions from your boss to bring up distracting topics. You need the job to support yourself and/or a family.
    .
    Can I tell the difference?
    .
    No?
    .
    I will never be able to definitively tell the difference.
    .
    I do know this: you are unreasonable to debate with.

  • 53_3

    rdw:
    .
    Is it that you really respect only those you want to respect, rather than their success or failure?
    .
    Would you respect Soros, or Abrahmoff before he was caught?
    .
    How about Fastau before he got caught. Or Haliburton? Is the accumulation of money everything, rdw?
    .
    I mean, do you attempt to differentiate between skinning the cat and how one skins the cat?
    .
    Why do you think racial hatred a la Rush needs to be part of conservatism?
    .
    Regardless of what “liberals” do, Rush lies a lot. Should this be part of conservatism too?

  • earljr1

    Your stupidity reigns supreme and I pity any child you might father.
    Not that it is ANY of your business, fatboy, but the jr is for my son, who happens to carry MY name. I was not named for my father. (who also happens to be a physician, as was his father)
    We have a long, proud history of being medical practitioners. My grandfather inspired both my dad and me, to follow in his footsteps.
    Speaking of history, how long has this strain of paranoia been carried by your family?
    What a MAJOR disappointment you must have been to your parents. A failure at every single undertaking. How sad.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    A collection you’ve been wait for:
    .
    Earl’s wacky rants February 2011!
    .

    I think a cage full of Monkeys could have done a better job and it probably would have made more sense.
    Who, in their right mind, would have left the insurance companies in charge of allocating health care and NOT provide for competitive drug pricing? Who would go out of their way to alienate 500,000 health care professionals, knowing fully well that without their support, HCR will fail? (Docs4PatientCare.org)
    The honorable judge, Robert Vinson, is 100% correct…..this poorly designed legislation needs to be redesigned, retooled and completely redone by mature adults with more than “victory” etched in their foolish minds.
    Go back to smoking your happy weed, perhaps it will make you forget the pain you may be experiencing and be sure to thank your democratic legislators for getting you into this mess.
    At some point you would think they would understand that America has spurned left of center politics. But no, to many we need to adopt liberal policies to gain traction on the political landscape.
    Yes, indeed, a few more entitlement programs and we will soon be on the road to recovery.
    “There are two gates of sleep. One is of horn, easy of passage for the shades of truth; the other, of gleaming white ivory, permits false dreams to ascend to the upper air.”
    Publius Vergilius Maro (Virgil)
    Actually, the commander in “thief” stands guilty of stealing one of the principles providing a foundation for our country. A nation RESPONSIVE to the will of the people.
    Liberals could care less about this premise and Obamacare stands as an excellent example of ignoring the people…..the 83% who, when polled, said they were “very happy” with their health care, will now be forced into a system diluted by government mandates and unmanageable bureaucracy.
    they would like NOTHING better.
    I, too, am amazed at the arrogance these people possess. They are SO quick in telling anyone who listens just how smart they are, but the reality of fact escapes them every time.
    Delusional daydreamers would be an appropriate description for most of them.
    Not exactly “listening to the will of the people”, is it, Elvis? Nor does it serve the people in the manner it was intended. Constitutional? probably not, but our commander in thief could care less. He owns this monstrosity and it could well be his Waterloo in 2012. (we can only hope!)
    Extremely appropriate, I would say. A bill written by comedians, reduced to a comic book format.
    It is the ONLY way their democratic constituents have ANY chance of understanding. (that they have been royally screwed)
    In their haste to proclaim “victory” at any cost, they have saddled the American public with a mish mash of legislation that leaves millions uninsured and drives up the premiums for everyone else.
    Couple this with a deeply resentful health care community, alienated seniors and a public growing more angry as Obamacare unfolds, then I would say a major crisis is impending.
    Virtually every democratic politician distanced themselves from this legislation during the mid terms and the outcome of those elections reinforced the public’s disenchantment with Obamacare.
    If not repealed or found unconstitutional by the supreme court, the bill will be significantly altered from its present form.
    That, ladies and gentlemen, would be a GOOD thing.A very, very good thing!
    I suggest “falsepromisecare” or “weliedcare” or perhaps “Obamasuckscare” or “keepdreamingcare”, or even “insurance companieswincare”.
    Finally, “itwontworkcare” and I think all provide a better description of this moronic legislation dumped on the American public by power hungry democratic politicians.
    I see has cashed his welfare check and once again, is camped out on swampland being non productive (as usual)
    You give entitlement a bad name I know people with your condition, paranoid personality disorder, that manage to remain gainfully employed.
    Are you just lazy?
    Yes indeed, a textbook explanation of PPD and you DO know that you consistently display at least six of those symptoms, don’t you? Time to seek help, fatpatrick, this handicap can ruin your life if left untreated.
    Interesting video….I notice you have lost some more hair and gained a few more pounds. Your jowl’s are pendulous and actually jiggle when you talk.
    Look on the bright side, though…you just might parlay those extra pounds into a seasonal Santa job at Macy’s!
    Oh, how funny. Just how patronizing can be. smooooth.
    Here is what I find hard to believe, that an old, pot smoking druggie like you actually taught our children at one point in your psychedelic career.There is no estimating the amount of damage you inflicted with your narrow minded perspective on life and world events. I would imagine your license was suspended when your history of drug use finally unfolded.
    your ignorance is appalling.
    You have already stated that you DO NOT plan to purchase insurance, so, as usual, you will continue to scam the system.
    but you fall all over your fat self in trying to make it wrong.
    If you actually PAID taxes, you would understand the concerns we have about Obamacare. The final cost is inestimable and the vast majority of physicians OPPOSE this ludicrous legislation. (Docs4PatientCare.org)
    Trouble dealing with truth,? If a different perspective is offered, it obviously makes you uncomfortable….but crapping on the furniture?
    Come on, you are better than this. Don’t be so rigid
    What have YOU accomplished in life except sponge off the taxpayer? (Just like your son, you really did a lousy job of raising this cretin, you know)
    you breezed right by the mental retardation part.
    Take you away from google and you would find your self totally incapable of communicating. You are a social misfit, a loner and a totally forgettable character.
    Failed student
    Failed taxi driver
    Army and police department reject (I suspect mental issues)
    Failed security guard
    Failed rental booking agent (because he sits on his fat butt all day and refuses to work)
    And most disheartening, failed at relationships. (any number of reasons here, but most notably, lousy personality, obesity and acute paranoia)
    Face up to it, you are simply a loser.
    And you, , are not biased, hostile and narrow minded one bit, are you? You NEVER unleash a barb, too.
    You are what you are, a washed up old pot smoking hippy with a nasty disposition (and mouth) and I am sure, a completely dull and boring person.
    You are such a dunce I see the conservatives (and some of the liberals) are ripping you to shreds, as usual. You are over matched, fatboy, so why don’t you call it a day and ingest a few more cheeseburgers
    Speaking of history, how long has this strain of paranoia been carried by your family?
    What a MAJOR disappointment you must have been to your parents. A failure at every single undertaking. How sad.

    .
    Looks like a mental patient to me.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Translation: Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) is a pattern of self-centered or egotistical behavior that shows up in thinking and behavior in a lot of different situations and activities. People with NPD won’t (or can’t) change their behavior even when it causes problems at work or when other people complain about the way they act, or when their behavior causes a lot of emotional distress to others (or themselves? none of my narcissists ever admit to being distressed by their own behavior — they always blame other people for any problems). This pattern of self-centered or egotistical behavior is not caused by current drug or alcohol use, head injury, acute psychotic episodes, or any other illness, but has been going on steadily at least since adolescence or early adulthood.
    NPD interferes with people’s functioning in their occupations and in their relationships:
    Mild impairment when self-centered or egotistical behavior results in occasional minor problems, but the person is generally doing pretty well.
    Moderate impairment when self-centered or egotistical behavior results in: (a) missing days from work, household duties, or school, (b) significant performance problems as a wage-earner, homemaker, or student, (c) frequently avoiding or alienating friends, (d) significant risk of harming self or others (frequent suicidal preoccupation; often neglecting family, or frequently abusing others or committing criminal acts).
    Severe impairment when self-centered or egotistical behavior results in: (a) staying in bed all day, (b) totally alienating all friends and family, (c) severe risk of harming self or others (failing to maintain personal hygiene; persistent danger of suicide, abuse, or crime).

    1. An exaggerated sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)

    Translation: Grandiosity is the hallmark of narcissism. So what is grandiose?

    The simplest everyday way that narcissists show their exaggerated sense of self-importance is by talking about family, work, life in general as if there is nobody else in the picture. Whatever they may be doing, in their own view, they are the star, and they give the impression that they are bearing heroic responsibility for their family or department or company, that they have to take care of everything because their spouses or co-workers are undependable, uncooperative, or otherwise unfit. They ignore or denigrate the abilities and contributions of others and complain that they receive no help at all; they may inspire your sympathy or admiration for their stoicism in the face of hardship or unstinting self-sacrifice for the good of (undeserving) others. But this everyday grandiosity is an aspect of narcissism that you may never catch on to unless you visit the narcissist’s home or workplace and see for yourself that others are involved and are pulling their share of the load and, more often than not, are also pulling the narcissist’s share as well. An example is the older woman who told me with a sigh that she knew she hadn’t been a perfect mother but she just never had any help at all — and she said this despite knowing that I knew that she had worn out and discarded two devoted husbands and had lived in her parents’ pocket (and pocketbook) as long as they lived, quickly blowing her substantial inheritance on flaky business schemes. Another example is claiming unusual benefits or spectacular results from ordinary effort and investment, giving the impression that somehow the narcissist’s time and money are worth more than other people’s. [Here is an article about recognizing and coping with narcissism in the workplace; it is rather heavy on management jargon and psychobabble, but worth reading. "The Impact of Narcissism on Leadership and Sustainability" by Bruce Gregory, Ph.D. "When the narcissistic defense is operating in an interpersonal or group setting, the grandiose part does not show its face in public. In public it presents a front of patience, congeniality, and confident reasonableness."]

    In popular usage, the terms narcissism, narcissist, and narcissistic denote absurd vanity and are applied to people whose ambitions and aspirations are much grander than their evident talents. Sometimes these terms are applied to people who are simply full of themselves — even when their real achievements are spectacular. Outstanding performers are not always modest, but they aren’t grandiose if their self-assessments are realistic; e.g., Muhammad Ali, then Cassius Clay, was notorious for boasting “I am the greatest!” and also pointing out that he was the prettiest, but he was the greatest and the prettiest for a number of years, so his self-assessments weren’t grandiose. Some narcissists are flamboyantly boastful and self-aggrandizing, but many are inconspicuous in public, saving their conceit and autocratic opinions for their nearest and dearest. Common conspicuous grandiose behaviors include expecting special treatment or admiration on the basis of claiming (a) to know important, powerful or famous people or (b) to be extraordinarily intelligent or talented. As a real-life example, I used to have a neighbor who told his wife that he was the youngest person since Sir Isaac Newton to take a doctorate at Oxford. The neighbor gave no evidence of a world-class education, so I looked up Newton and found out that Newton had completed his baccalaureate at the age of twenty-two (like most people) and spent his entire academic career at Cambridge. The grandiose claims of narcissists are superficially plausible fabrications, readily punctured by a little critical consideration. The test is performance: do they deliver the goods? (There’s also the special situation of a genius who’s also strongly narcissistic, as perhaps Frank Lloyd Wright. Just remind yourself that the odds are that you’ll meet at least 1000 narcissists for every genius you come across.) [More on grandiosity.]

    2. Preoccupation with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love

    Translation: Narcissists cultivate solipsistic or “autistic” fantasies, which is to say that they live in their own little worlds (and react with affront when reality dares to intrude).

    3. Believes he is “special” and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)

    Translation: Narcissists think that everyone who is not special and superior is worthless. By definition, normal, ordinary, and average aren’t special and superior, and so, to narcissists, they are worthless.

    4. Requires excessive admiration

    Translation: Excessive in two ways: they want praise, compliments, deference, and expressions of envy all the time, and they want to be told that everything they do is better than what others can do. Sincerity is not an issue here; all that matter are frequency and volume.

    5. Has a sense of entitlement

    Translation: They expect automatic compliance with their wishes or especially favorable treatment, such as thinking that they should always be able to go first and that other people should stop whatever they’re doing to do what the narcissists want, and may react with hurt or rage when these expectations are frustrated.

    6. Selfishly takes advantage of others to achieve his own ends

    Translation: Narcissists use other people to get what they want without caring about the cost to the other people.

    7. Lacks empathy

    Translation: They are unwilling to recognize or sympathize with other people’s feelings and needs. They “tune out” when other people want to talk about their own problems.
    In clinical terms, empathy is the ability to recognize and interpret other people’s emotions. Lack of empathy may take two different directions: (a) accurate interpretation of others’ emotions with no concern for others’ distress, which is characteristic of psychopaths; and (b) the inability to recognize and accurately interpret other people’s emotions, which is the NPD style. This second form of defective empathy may (rarely) go so far as alexithymia, or no words for emotions, and is found with psychosomatic illnesses, i.e., medical conditions in which emotion is experienced somatically rather than psychically. People with personality disorders don’t have the normal body-ego identification and regard their bodies only instrumentally, i.e., as tools to use to get what they want, or, in bad states, as torture chambers that inflict on them meaningless suffering. Self-described narcissists who’ve written to me say that they are aware that their feelings are different from other people’s, mostly that they feel less, both in strength and variety (and which the narcissists interpret as evidence of their own superiority); some narcissists report “numbness” and the inability to perceive meaning in other people’s emotions.

    8. Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him

    Translation: No translation needed.

    9. Shows arrogant, haughty, patronizing, or contemptuous behaviors or attitudes

    Translation: They treat other people like dirt.
    .
    http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/dsm-iv.html#npd

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Earl,
    .
    The more your write, the more you come across as a mentally ill man.
    .
    I am presuming your unfounded and absurd claims about drug abuse and/or mental illness among people who dare disagree with you is the result of family members and friends of yours ( if you have any friends left by now) telling you how much you need help.
    .
    It is called “psychological projecting”.
    .
    You can’t deal with the fact that you have narcissistic Personality disorder and, therefore, since it is a fact that hurts you, you toss it around as a barb.
    .
    Earl,
    .
    I spent two years as a New York City Cabbie and, starting while in college, I was a Boston cabbie (much harder since Boston’s a harder town to drive in) and had enough other life experiences to be far too thick skinned to really care too much about your unfounded insults.
    .
    If you don’t have thick skin, you just don’t make it as a cabbie. I started that when I was just 20 years old.
    .
    By age 20 I, already, had a very thick skin and a self deprecating sense of humor.
    .
    As best as I can tell ( knowing only what you may know) Apr isn’t going home crying, either.
    .
    Now, step away from the computer and go to your psychiatrist, Earl.
    .
    Seriously, Earl, you are a disturbed man.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    WTF is a “rental booking agent.” ?
    .
    It sounds like something that they do in England.
    .
    I’ve never heard of that job in the US.

  • rdw56

    You do I hope understand why I say you are not a legitimate debater and this is why I will ignore you and recommend that others do, too.

    ****************************************************
    Shut down dissent and all that? You are a total putz.

  • earljr1

    Don’t you just love it? Fatboy spends all day spilling his swill and still fails to address his own incompetence.
    It is not unusual for people with your
    disorder to avoid, at any cost, accepting responsibility for their misdeeds. Instead, they try to turn the smoking gun against their counterpart. So be it, you are what you are, fatpatrick, a misfit in today’s society.
    I have enjoyed watch your arguments disintegrate with other conservatives. You simply have had your butt handed to you on a silver platter, but as usual, you are too stupid to know it.
    You respond with more disingenuous chatter, trying to overcome logic with sheer volume.
    We are all on to you, fatpatrick, you are nothing but a pimple on societies butt. Useless, ugly and bothersome.

  • rdw56

    Poor Watts, that NYC had the hottest summer in decades with the worst Winter since 1925.

    ***************************************************

    All well and good. Isn’t that called weather? (Hint: YES!!!!!) Don’t feel bad for Anthony. I don’t now where he’s getting the money but that’s a state of the art website. He’s got a full time job and is one of the biggest players in the field.

  • afguy

    Yeah, apparently “self-control” is an extremely-scarce commodity.

  • rdw56

    I do not approve of that but do like his movies for entertainment.

    *****************************************

    I’ve never seen one but my favorite is the one about columbine. He ‘reports’ a bank is giving away rifles as a promo to open a new account. He’s shown going into a bank supposedly just an average joe and opens an account and walks out with a rifle. Total fabrication. There was no such promotion and his own film crew brought the gun in. The bank never knew the script.

    MM is the coolest of all libs. He toured Europe trashing ALL Americans as stupid. ON film!!!

  • 53_3

    rdw:
    .
    I’m not going to bother to defend Moore, but I’m sure you are going to tell me I’ll difficulty finding hundreds of videos of far right crackheads saying or doing something that is even less connected to reality (i.e. truly insane), I expect.
    .
    Right?

  • 53_3

    Um, rdw:
    .
    You need to replace the “ALL” with “far right” and I’ll agree with you.
    .
    I didn’t take his caricatures as insulting me or my country.
    .
    After all, I am not like you…

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Earl,
    .
    If I am so very unpleasant, have considered taking your drivel and false claims consistent with a person with Narcissism to Redstate instead?
    .
    You still haven’t told me, what is a “rental booking agent”?
    .
    I’ve never heard of that job.
    .
    Is that British English?

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Shut down dissent and all that? You are a total putz.”
    .
    First, you presume that I can convince even one other person to make a complaint about you. This is far from a sure thing.
    .
    Second, you presume that I will, even with 10,20 or 30 people – very unlikely to get 30 out of 30 combined liberals, moderates and a couple of conservatives to agree on something – that WordPress will react. WordPress does not even have a listed phone number for complaints of any kind.
    .
    Third, Exiled_at home, Swiss Army Brain and others do an outstanding job of presenting well thought out conservative ideas and I would like to hear from them and other conservatives who know how to debate and wish to be reasonable.
    .
    So, getting just one person to agree to send an email to wordpress with me in three weeks is about 40% at best.
    .
    Getting enough people to complain to wordpress is about one in one thousand.
    .
    Getting wordpress to start moderating, even with a huge number of people, is about 10% of that one in one thousand.
    .
    So, I would put the odds of your remaining on the blog at about 9,999 out of 10,000.
    .
    I would put my likelihood of switching to a moderated blog at 50/50.
    .
    So, the idea that I am going to shut you down is a very inaccurate statement.
    .
    For you to say that I am shutting down opposition would be like when I broke with my girlfriend if she said that I was stopping her from having sex by not being her boyfriend.
    .
    Of course she found somebody else eventually.
    .
    Debating with you about Rush vs Moore is like debating “My dad could beat your dad”.
    .
    Most of my debates with you turn into that.
    .
    If I quit Swampland because of annoying people, please tell your right wing buddies the fact that if you put ten liberals in a room, you’ll have, at least eleven ideas. We do not march in lockstep.
    .
    That’s what the far right does.

  • liberalmeltdown

    Patrick @ 33. What the? You are here the most on this blog. I know you aren’t getting paid. Nobody is that stupid to pay for your drivel.
    .
    Maybe you should read some of the links to your nonsense about welfare reform. You seem to have lots of time on your hands.
    .
    I thought you had a bid real estate deal going…Did the sale of the trailer fall through?

  • liberalmeltdown

    And Patrick, for someone that constantly complains about trolls, many of your own posts fall into the “troll” category, and your stalking behavior places you as the top troll of the Swampland.

  • 53_3

    “if you put ten liberals in a room, you’ll have, at least eleven ideas.”
    .
    And, if you put ten teabaggers in a room you’ll either get:
    .
    One idea, and sure to either be totally wrong, or:
    .
    One so outlandish as to be disconnected with reality…

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “One idea, and sure to either be totally wrong, or:
    .
    One so outlandish as to be disconnected with reality…”

    .
    Which is why I am proud to be among the ten with eleven ideas – nearly all of them good.
    .
    You’ve got it, 53.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “You are here the most on this blog.”
    .
    No.
    .
    I pick a post and stay with it. Freeinpa is on almost every post.
    .
    FWIW: I do office space, office buildings and retail Monday through Friday 7:00 to 6:00 as I see fit. So, weekends have nothing to do with it and between posts I am working.
    .
    “Maybe you should read some of the links to your nonsense about welfare reform.”
    .
    Fact, Bill Clinton won the Democratic nomination promising Welfare Reform in 1992 when both houses were Democratic majorities.
    .
    Fact, original criticism of food stamps came from liberal Democrat Daniel Patrick Moynihan.
    .
    Republicans savored welfare the same way that dictators in the Islamic world savor Israel.
    .
    If dictators in Muslim countries didn’t have the lie of blaming Israel for the world’s problems, their own people would be more eager to topple them.
    .
    When Republicans lost welfare loving from Democrats, it cost them ammunition to lob at Democrats during elections. Soon, in order to stand our more, Republicans switched over to become Climate change deniers which they were not when Reagan and Bush Sr were president.
    .
    So, Psychiatric Meltdown – a person who’s name says “Hi, wingnut troll here” you are the last person I should expect to miss me.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “your stalking behavior “
    .
    Trust me, if you see a tall, blue eyed white man hanging around your neighborhood/town it sure as hell isn’t me.
    .
    He’s probably a cop investigating you for something.
    .
    Flush your meth down the toilet and hire a lawyer because I do have much better things to do than to stalk you.

  • rdw56

    As for “bringing down unemployment” no one has ever, in as severe economic times as these accomplished it before.

    ***********************

    Reagan had a far more difficult economy with high inflation and high unemployment and managed to solve both problems. In his 1st 6 Qtrs of recovery he averaged 7.7% GDP growth and added over 3M jobs. Obama, as one would expect with no background or education in business or economics has been a very poor economic manager. Now that the stimulus is over and we have a GOP house the business community has confidence in we’ll have better growth but not strong enough to get unemployment below 7.5% before the election and because of the massive stimulus we could have higher inflation. .

    FYI: ’bout time a liberal acknowledge the New Deal was a failure and FDR extended the depression.

  • rdw56

    Republicans switched over to become Climate change deniers which they were not when Reagan and Bush Sr were president.

    **************************************

    1st it wasn’t climate change them it was global warming. They had to change the name because it’s stopped warming in 1998, 2nd opposition wasn’t to temperatures but to the braindead Kyoto treaty negotiated by Al Gore and then to everything done by the massively corrupt and inefficient UN.

    Today there is nothing much to oppose. Kyoto was never implemented, will never be implemented and will never be replaced. More important, the left has lost control of the data. There isn’t a credible study that’s stood up to a public review once the data has been released and a number of climate bloggers have forced the hand of govt to release all publicly financed data and studies immediately and entirely.

    Right now there’s a fascinating weekly ‘contest by Dr Joe bastardi of accu-weather versus the top scientist at the national sno and ice data center over events up in the Arctic circle. As you would expect both men think Al Gore is a fraud. Dr Joe is shredding Al and no one is defending him. Both men think there is warming going on but has been irrationally hyped and both agree the climate is far from well understood. How about that? Real scientist doing real science. Dr Joe’s mission is to bring this discussion to high school students so they understand the difference between science and hype.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Does anybody else here see that the above statement is exactly why RDW56 does not belong here?
    .
    If I got paid by the number of times I explained using outside facts and links to it to explain why the above statement is untrue on several different levels, I would be able to quit my job.
    .
    Fact Stagflation hit in 1980 at the end of the Carter administration.
    .
    Fact Stagflation was caused by a sudden decrease in the oil supply.
    .
    Fact Carter made one short term solution by dropping Richard Nixon’s price control plan which he began with.
    .
    Fact Carter had begun a long term solution towards renewable energy to prevent this from becoming a problem in the future.
    .
    Fact Reagan stopped the long term solution.
    .
    Fact banks were strong until after six years of Reagan when we had the savings and loans crisis.
    .
    Fact Banks are weak now.
    .
    Fact the recession lasted until 1983
    .
    Fact This recession is dramatically worse in terms of unemployment than the one of 1980 through 1983.
    .
    Fact the bank failures took place under Bush.
    .
    Fact the bank failures were the result of both deregulation and failure to regulate new ways of banking following conservative theories that markets correct themselves.
    .
    Fact In terms of bang for your buck, government hiring has been proven in economics to decrease unemployment far faster and far better than tax breaks.
    .
    Fact Regan had to retreat on many of his tax breaks and raise taxes.
    .
    Fact Reagan raised the deficit greatly by cutting taxes.
    .
    No links this time.
    .
    RDW56 makes the same Reagan was Jesus Christ argument over and over and over and over
    .
    It’s very similar to his and the other right winger’s war against scientific fact of Climate change.
    .
    Bring it up, win or lose, stop bringing it up.
    .
    This kind of nonsense is what has to leave Swampland.
    .
    It is not a voice of opposition, It is a parrot repeating the same things over and over and over and over.

  • rdw56

    MM has made hundreds of millions over 25 years selling puke to liberals. His world tour of Fareinhight 9/11 was to large adoring crowds and he was the toast of liberals everywhere. He was invited to sit in the Presidents box at the 2004 DNC convention. The man is loathsome but valuable to my side because of it. He’s just perfect He makes 200M selling lies in Farienhigh 9/11 and his next movie is an anti-capitalist screed, Just last month.he filed a $20M lawsuit against partners sying they screwed him out of fareinheight 9/11 proceeds. Liberals made him and Gore uber-wealthy men on totaL SCAMS..

    By contrast every time you blast limbaugh as a lair and asked for the lies you go silent. I have no need or desire to defend Limbaugh. He too is fabulously wealthy and has something Time lost long ago, He has great credibility and influence. He’s not always right but he’s honest. Moore and Gore are not.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “1st it wasn’t climate change them it was global warming.”
    .
    That’s like saying “I am not RDW56, I am rDw56….”
    .
    The same thing over and over and over and over and over.
    .
    Stop it!
    .
    Actual scientists beat you on this.
    .
    You’re a waste of time!
    .
    Got it?

  • rdw56

    MM is the coolest of all libs. He toured Europe trashing ALL Americans as stupid. ON film!!!

    ***********************************************

    You need to replace the “ALL” with “far right” and I’ll agree with you.

    *********************************************

    I don’t need you tp agree with me. Again, this is all on film and we’re not talking at two stops. MM toured a dozen cities and trashed AMERICANS at each one of them. He has a long track record of doing this. Either you agree with him or you are a moron.

  • rdw56

    Patrick,

    This is great stuff. It’s a fact which by itself mocks the entire movement. It, by itself, identifies it as a political and not a scientific movement.

    They had to change the name from Global Warming because it stopped warming in 1998. It makes liberals so much fun to debate. One of my 1st questions wil be, “Why did they drop the name global warming?” What is interesting is their face gives them away. If you get the frown that means they know why. They’re among the few libs who understand it stopped warming in 1998 and they know they’re about to be embarrassed. But most don’t know. That’s one of those basic facts that the MSM has carefully scrubbed for them so they don’t get any ideas. It’s highly unlikely they’ll start thinking for themselves but why take the chance? These people are the most fun. They don’t know. I don’t waste time convincing them. I merely ask, “Well, if the evidence is that temperatures have been flat now for 12 years does that mean it’s stopped warming? Liberals hate those kinds of questions. They know the obvious answer is in conflict with dogma. So if there are enough people around I try and find a 5th grader with the courage to answer the question.

    You are so toast. There will be very significant budget cutting and academia is going to be crushed. The grant process is totally corrupt. It can’t be changed but it can be cut.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    No, rdw.
    .
    He trashed your dead ideology.
    .
    Moore did not insult anybody to the left of GWB which, by 2008 was 80% of the US since, by 2008 GWB had 20% support of the people who gave him the job – the actual American people
    .
    By contrast your boys Rushy, SHanity, Coulter, Savage. O’Rielly and other loud mouths insult 80% of America.

  • rdw56

    BTW: If you want to track more of this stuff go to wattsupwiththat.com. It’s a great site with a larger following than Time. Isn’t that pretty cool? You would think science would have a very narrow following. Anthony Watts has done such good work he’s picked up sponsors and has developed an excellent website.

    patrick, you of all people should be able to appreciate this. Back in the 1990 – 1995 timeframe we didn’t have online access to much of this data. The MSM controlled a lot and academia controlled even more of the science. Today with people like Watts having won dozens of freedom of information act lawsuits all publicly funded data collection programs have to provide a real time feed to the public sector. I think NASA is the lone holdout. You can right now go into his website and within two minutes see a chart of the icecap where the data is less than 24 hours old and you can design a video of say just a time lapse pictures of this day for the last 5, 10, 25 years to see what the ice cap is doing over time.

    Of course the man of the hour is Al Gore. Having sold the idea the ice Cap will be gone in summers in 5 years and being supported by GW scientists they now have to live with it and it will not be pretty.

    This is why Anthony and Dr Joe of accu-weather are working with the Feds to create a 30 minute weekly segment for high school students to participate in their debates. It not only exposes them to real science but what happens when these ‘movements’ are formed and science becomes corrupted.

    Patrick you can tell if someone is a real scientist by their view of Al Gore and the movement. If they are remotely aware of the things he’s said without scientific support and do not condemn him they are not authentic scientists. He has so clearly harmed real science it’s not possible to be neutral. The people who supported him did so entirely on greed. Al was a fundraiser. They accepted the hype for the cash.

  • rdw56

    patrick,

    video sucks. Brit Hume thought he was a hoot so he played the same segment from every European tour stop. I saw at least 6. He repeated the same speech witch included the line, “Americans are the dumbest people on the planet”. And it’s stuff he’s been saying his entire life. There’s no debate. He has more contempt for democrats who do not share his view than conservatives.

    The reason you hear about him so much is because he’s valuable to the far left and conservatives. Not the far right, all conservatives. I love that scene in his movie going into a bank branch and coming out with a gun as a ‘reward’ for opening the account. Never happened. It’s vintage Moore. He’s been doing this entire life. I think it was sicko he showed the Cuban HC system as a model of efficiency. Cuba is a toilet. They don’t have basic medicines like aspirin. Like all socialist systems you get access if you are in the party. We have enough video of the real cuba even Obama stopped praising them.

  • rdw56

    Bring it up, win or lose, stop bringing it up.
    .
    This kind of nonsense is what has to leave Swampland.

    **************************************************

    You have some delusions of grandeur my friend. Did you wake up and think someone made you King?

  • rdw56

    Fact In terms of bang for your buck, government hiring has been proven in economics to decrease unemployment far faster and far better than tax breaks.

    ************************************************

    patrick, everything you wrote was wrong, but nothing as dumb as this. No one supports this because it’s obviously stupid. Obama can’t pay these people with his money tree out in the Rose Garden. He either has to borrow the money or raise taxes or both.

    If this were true there would not have been a great depression. there was. It lasted 10 years. FDR got unemployment down to 20% after 6 years and then totally abandoned the New Deal.

    BTW: We’ll keep doing this dance but I’m OK with it. Reagan changed the world. As Obama said, he was transformational. It wasn’t about lowering taxes but lowering marginal tax rates to increase the incentives to work, save and invest. He only said so 1,000x’s. There’s video. Reagan was so good 6 years after senility set in he lowered marginal tax rates all the way from 70% to 28%. That’s a change of 42%. Obama couldn’t manage1% even on just millionaires. Clinton moved them 3%.

    Let me see,reagan 42%, Clinton 3%, Obama 0%. Hmmmm. He must have been totally senile.

    and you know what’s even cooler. You tell someone under the age of 45 that rates were once 70% they won’t believe you. They won’t believe any President could be that stupid. In this day and age it’s nonsensical and incomprehensible. Tell them they were 90% during the depression and they’ll say, “no wonder”, “duh”.

  • rdw56

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/US_Unemployment_1890-2009.gif

    ***********************************************

    What you’ll see Patrick is unemployment in 1983 was 9.7% versus 9.6% in 2010. It was 9.6% in 1982 versus 9.3% in 2009. The recession ended in 1982 and in 1983 Reagan began an 18 month run of 7.7% GDP growth and added over 3M jobs.

    As far as inflation it was 11.2% in 79, 12.6% in 80 and 10.4% in 81%. By 83 inflation was 3.2%. By comparison in 2009 and 2010 it averaged less than 1.5%. As you can see historians wishing to compare what Reagan inherited with Obama will see obie had it easy.

    http://inflationdata.com/inflation/Inflation_Rate/HistoricalInflation.aspx?dsInflation_currentPage=2

  • rdw56

    It’s very similar to his and the other right winger’s war against scientific fact of Climate change.

    ********************************************

    Anthony Watts is one of several bloggers waging the war against the corruption of Al Gore and his alarmist fanatics using facts which is why/how he and Dr Joe bastarti and the NSIDC have combined to provide graphic and video evidence Al Gore is running a scam with his Arctic Ice Cap claims.

    http://wattsupwiththat.com

    http://www.accuweather.com/video.asp?channel=vbbastaj

    if you want to have a good laugh at Al’s expense and see what is to come when his promise hit’s 5 years scroll down on wattsup and on the right you’ll see a link to sea ice extent. Unlink Dr Hanson at NASA who won’t share his data the NSIDC and almost all other federal agencies do.

  • rdw56

    A Thought on Obama = Reagan
    February 8, 2011 5:14 P.M.
    By Larry Kudlow

    In the battle over Ronald Reagan’s legacy, where media liberals and even the president are trying to suggest that Obama equals Reagan, here’s a quick thought:

    Both Obama and Reagan inherited deep and brutal recessions. But the first six recovery quarters look much different for each president.

    For President Obama, from the middle of 2009 through the end of 2010, real GDP growth has averaged only 3 percent annually and nonfarm payroll jobs a paltry 121,000.

    On the other hand, in 1983-84 period, Reagan’s first six quarters of recovery saw real GDP averaging 7.7 percent annually with nonfarm payrolls rising 5.3 million.

    So the numbers are different. And so are the philosophies. President Obama is strictly big-government spending, while President Reagan cut spending and tax rates to solve recession.

    All of us Reaganites appreciate Obama’s kind words about the Gipper, but the differences between the two presidents are huge.

    I’ll be writing more on this shortly.

    ***************************************************

    Patrick, not to worry, when Larry expands more I’ll post it.

    Perhaps you noted my error. I previously posted RR’s recovery add 3M jobs it’s 1st 6 quarters. It’s over 5M.

    Isn’t it also something that Reagan also inherited > 12% inflation and cut it to just over 3% in 1983.

    Isn’t it clear now why Obama is trying to grab the mantle of Reagan and Time is pushing it as well?

    All this and defeating the USSR and socialism without firing a shot!!!

  • rdw56

    Patrick, Two great columns by noted economist Robert Samuelson in a row. The 1st touted he’s incredible success at slowing inflation which RS considers more important than the amazing job creation and GDP growth. Today Samuelson takes on the absurdity of hi-speed trains. From powerline:

    The Quest for the Holy Rail

    A few days ago I posted a mildly disputatious item about Robert Samuelson’s column last week on Reagan and inflation, and we subsequently had a couple of cordial e-mail exchanges dilating key points. Well, Samuelson’s column this week on the folly of high-speed rail is not to be missed. I’m in heated agreement with this one. For instance:

    There’s something wildly irresponsible about the national government’s undermining states’ already poor long-term budget prospects by plying them with grants that provide short-term jobs. Worse, the high-speed rail proposal casts doubt on the administration’s commitment to reducing huge budget deficits (its 2012 budget is due Monday). How can it subdue deficits if it keeps proposing big new spending programs?

    Samuelson runs through some of the numbers, not merely on the extravagant cost, but also how few people use rail transit currently. Amtrak carried 29.1 million passengers last year. Sounds impressive? That’s only one quarter the amount of automobile commutes in a single day. The proposed expansion would have little effect, as Samuelson explains: “It’s a triumph of fancy over fact. Even if ridership increased fifteenfold over Amtrak levels, the effects on congestion, national fuel consumption and emissions would still be trivial. Land use patterns would change modestly, if at all; cutting 20 minutes off travel times between New York and Philadelphia wouldn’t much alter real estate development in either.”

    The liberal fixation on rail transit, a 19th century technology ill-suited to 21st century mobility needs, prompts a lot of questions. The proposed high-speed rail system will be a fiscal sink-hole forever. Why is it that liberals only apply “sustainability” to how us lowly private citizens use resources, but never to government spending?

    rdw- the fact is this program is not going to advance because of the deficits and common sense. It’s a very small segment who benefits and the costs are outrageous. We drive cars. We are not going back to trains. Perhaps if Gore wasn’t such a goof there would be an environmental argument but the fact is cars today are quite clean and getting cleaner. This is the sort of thing were Senator Ben Nelson to support he could file his retirement papers the next day.

    Look for this war to be fought on geographic grounds. If the people of NY and NJ want a tunnel between their states they can pay for it. Christie did a neat thing in canceling the tunnel project and Amtrak make a signifcant mistake in picking it up. Time will not report Christie transferred the cost of the tunnel from NJ residents to the entire USA but we’ll find out anyway.

  • earljr1

    rdw56 for the WIN!!
    Facts and logic have reduced patrick to a quivering mass of protoplasm.
    Great job, rdw56, your patience in dealing with this windbag is certainly commendable. The more logic you provide, the more verbose and incoherent he becomes. (typical liberal) When he starts hurling insults, you know you have him on the ropes. It then becomes a matter of out lasting him.
    Once again…outstanding work.

  • rdw56

    Moore did not insult anybody to the left of GWB which, by 2008 was 80% of the US since, by 2008 GWB had 20% support of the people who gave him the job

    **************************************************

    Since they did not poll actual voters this isn’t accurate. But it doesn’t matter anyway. The fact is MM is a freak and he is well known as a freak. I as a huge fan of his tour and his movie. I especially liked the morons in DC flocking to premiere. It was after all a liberal wet dream. Pity the normally shrewd Tom Daschle who showed up and got a nice photo opt with MM. It’s played very well in DC. Not so well back home. Woudn’t you know John Thune used the pick in much of his literature and some of the special interest groups played clips of his speeches ripping Americans while in Europe. Did not go over well. As we know Senator Thune was one of the speakers at CPAC on the list of potential nominee. Tom Daschle can’t even get a job in this administration.

  • rdw56

    Fact the recession lasted until 1983.

    ***********************************************

    The recession did not extend into1983.

    The Early 1980s recession was a severe recession in the United States which began in July 1981 and ended in November 1982.[1][2] The primary cause of the recession was a contractionary monetary policy established by the Federal Reserve System to control high inflation.[3]

    By 1979, inflation reached a startling 11.3% and in 1980 soared to 13.5%.[1][6]

    A brief recession occurred in 1980. Several key industries—including housing, steel manufacturing and automobile production—experienced a downturn from which they did not recover through the end of the next recession. Many of the economic sectors that supplied these basic industries were also hard-hit.[7].

    So Patrick, what do you think? Reagan inherited 13.5% inflation and what was essentially a no growth economy with key sectors like housing and auto’s in a recession.

    The attempt to name this recession ‘the great recession’ is brain dead on several counts. The 80-82 recessions were just as bad with a far more significant inflation problem. By the bigger issue is that there were recessions in 1981 and 2008 but what was done to end them. Reagan applied supply side theories to offset the brutal interest rate regime while Obama went in the opposite direction. We already know enough to know his recovery won’t hit half the level of GDP Growth Reagan achieved and 1/4 the hiring growth.

    Here’s another real difference. In 1982 Kudlow had a tiny audience. In 2011 he’s huge. We have CNBC, Fox news, Etc., all with a far wider audience. You can rest safely that Time will not show these recovery stats side by side but with a majority of Americans owing stocks and far more economically savvy they can tell the difference between 5M jobs created and 121K jobs created and they will know.

    This last fact, the increased awareness of the general population is why Reagan was unable to raise taxes 1% on even just millionaires.

    By calling it “The Great Recesion” you invite comparison to Reagan and that’s a huge mistake. The more we know the worse for Obama.

  • rdw56

    The Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll for Monday shows that 29% of the nation’s voters Strongly Approve of the way that Barack Obama is performing his role as president. Thirty-nine percent (39%) Strongly Disapprove, giving Obama a Presidential Approval Index rating of -10 (see trends).

    Overall, 48% of voters say they at least somewhat approve of the president’s performance. Fifty-two percent (52%) disapprove.

    ***************************************************************

    Much has been written about how good Obama’s polls are considering the economy. This is true but they’re still not good in general and there is a disconnect between his own popularity and his agenda. In a way it’s lucky for him that his agenda is done legislatively but he still fights for it. One example is hi-speed rail, another is global warming. These are very expensive and very unpopular. He’s also decided to allow the House to lead on spending cuts thinking that will make them unpopular. It’s a risky bet. People want leadership from a President. He’s checked out. The same people giving this advice also told him if he passed programs the voters liked they’d support the tax increases to pay for them. The result of that was the largest 3rd party movement in US history.

    For the record the top number is the one Rasmussen considers important. This far out the vanilla favorable/unfavorables change each news cycle and are worthless. If he goes into the election at -10 he’ll lose.

  • rdw56

    correct 2nd to last paragraph. it’s Obama not Reagan obviously.

  • rdw56

    Patrick, This is how it’s done. It’s krauthammer on Fox

    On President Obama’s speech after Hosni Mubarak’s resignation:

    It was an impressive speech about the glories of democracy, dignity, freedom, etc, a speech you wonder why he hadn’t given it in the last two years. He had half a line in the Cairo address about consent — government should probably [have popular] consent and he coupled it saying however, America doesn’t want to impose itself [on other countries]. He dissed the Iraq war and made it clear he was not interested in the Bush freedom agenda …

    So this is a speech that is two years late. Where was the speech in the Iranian revolution [of 2009]? Nowhere to be seen. It shows how much the administration changed. It reflects a recognition they were on the wrong path. The only answer in that region ultimately is democratization.

    rdw- Gotta love it. Obie can learn. When you look at National Security and Defense you see a complete reversal of his positions in the Senate and in the campaign. When you look at diplomacy he gave liberalism a 2-yr run. He’s caved on Israel and he’s caved on American exceptionalism and pushing democracy. i.e., GWBs freedom agenda.

    On Director of National Intelligence James Clapper:

    Dumbest statement of the week: Director of National Intelligence James Clapper who said in congressional hearings that the Muslim Brotherhood is a mostly secular organization which renounced violence. For a secular organization it chose an odd name — [odd, too] for an organization that says a Christian or woman cannot be president of Egypt. He made it sound as if the Brotherhood is sort of the Salvation Army without the militancy.

    rdw- one of the more comical moments of the last year was a Professor from Columbia University refusing to beat up on Clapper while on Fox news because it was too easy. He in effect excused him saying he’s not that stupid, that the WH forced him into this position. “They’re called MUSLIM Brotherhood not the secular brotherhood for a reason.”

    While foreign policy won’t drive the2012 elections it will be a net negative for Obama. But that’s not the key for
    conservatives. The key is Obama has abandoned liberal ideology.

  • rdw56

    Hundreds of right-wing crackheads were not in the Presidential box at the convention nor feted while on a global tour trashing America.

    Let’s make one thing clear. MM can’t be on TV too much. He can’t travel and speak too much. I think he’s fabulous for my side. I feel the same about Al Gore, Joe Biden and Kerry. MM is a crank. He oozes sleeze. Gore is just a really bad liar while Biden and Kerry are the classic Senate clowns. They’ve been there so long and have had their asses kissed so much they’ve come to see themselves as wise men. All 3 are D students.

    MY favorite MM story is actually at the GOP convention. He was hired by Fox (I think) to do both conventions. He felt the Dems were going to crush Bush in 2004. He made $200M off his movie to global acclaim and from his perspective a raucus reception. He didn’t put in context the fact he was speaking to a small choir. After the kerry convention MM is on top of the world. Then in the month after, leading up to the GOP convention the SBVs because the story the MSM could not smother. MM goes into the GOP convention expecting demoralized troops but it was electric. I think they had an unusually strong roster of opening day speeches including Colin Powell. But the biggest splash was a huge GOP base wearing purple spakly flip-flops on their hands and making, in unison, exaggerated hand motions everytime a speaker mentioned “Flip-flop”. It was practiced and perfectly choreagraphed. Obviously the speakers were asked to use the term often. It was hilarious. It was one of those remarkable visual scenes that you have to laugh at and remember. MM was distraught. He knew immediately it was magic. He saw how energized the members were on the 1st day and he saw how compared to the DNC how much better organized. MM resigned that night. He did not go back he was so stunned.

  • rdw56

    The Met Office link-buries the CET
    Posted on February 14, 2011 by Anthony Watts

    The Central England Temperature Record has been getting some inconvenient attention as of late. Joe D’Aleo at ICECAP pointed out recently:

    The Central England Temperature record is one of the longest continuous temperature record in the world extending back to the Little Ice age in 1659. December 2010 was the coldest December in 120 years with an average of -0.7C just short of the record of -0.8C recorded in December 1890 and the Second Coldest December Temperature in the entire record (352 years).

    I don’t know if it is simply sloppy webkeeping or related to the fact that the CET isn’t cooperating with the AGW expectations, but the Met Office seems to be burying the data from easy public access. They haven’t eliminated it, but it is now harder to find, and what was once a direct link now points to a general purpose climate change page.

    RDW- 350-yr temp chart up at wattsupwithhat.com. The MET office erased the link to this news. Classic and pitiful attempt at censorship. The good news is they are generating MORE attention as a result. The Soviets at pravda were more honest than these clowns.

    The fact is liberals made a huge mistake touting 2010 as the warmest year on record after 11 months. It’s only justice December blew their doors off. 1934 followed by 1998 remain the warmest years. Worse yet is for their purposed 2011 has gotten off to a terrible start for the alarmists. It’s too early to call but the safe bet is for the 13th year of COLDER temps since 1998.

    It’s a funny thing. Ask a 5th grader if 13 years of flat temperatures mean it’s not getting warmer and without hesitation they’ll answer YES. Then ask a liberal. They’ll look like they just ate a lemon. If they answer, unlikely, they’ll get it wrong.

  • rdw56

    If the taxation landscape changes do to tax revolts like this one (and I doubt that this is the only place it is happening), then the very red counties, whose tax base is not large enough to support their infrastructure, will lose funding.

    *******************************************************
    I think you are talking about the TP. If so it’s not really a tax revolt. This isn’t about taxation without representation. This is about unfair, unwise taxation driven by runaway spending. At it’s core it’s about spending. The TP is about solving the deficit by cutting spending.

    As far as variances in how much states receive from the Feds it has as much or more to do with the historical power of state senators and congressman. Sen Byrd of WV is famous for pork. Off the top of my head more southern states have large military bases than Northern states. This is just one factor of relative federal spending in states. For Hood in Texas
    drives more federal spending in Texas than all of the bases in PA. WV will receive more in federal dollars than it pays for many decades just due to the efforts of Byrd.

  • rdw56

    deepest-lying layers of the foundation of equity based egalitarianism built into the distribution end of our taxation infrastructure?

    **********************

    I sense you mean income redistribution. The fact is most people do not support this. It has it’s basis in marxism which is a very dead religion. There is a terrific and accepted argument that those at the bottom rungs of society can’t be expected to contribute much if at all. All Americans want to help those who cannot help themselves.

    At the same time there’s been a huge change of heart regarding the rich. For 100 years +they’ve been reported as evil thieves who exploit the poor stealing the gold out of their teeth when they sleep. Today, Bill Gates isn’t such a bad guy. He gives away $5B a year to charity. Warren Buffet is beloved by libs. The only charities larger than gates are the walmart family. Michael Dell, Paul Allen, Steve Jobs, cool dudes. Are you going to try to sell that exploitation crap in 2011? Go ahead!!!.

    Here’s a fundamental gap between liberals and conservatives that you can’t bridge and you can’t sell. Liberals want equal results. Conservatives want equal opportunities. As long as you measure equality by results you lose. Bill Gates didn’t steal a dime off of anyone.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    RDW56,
    .
    You’re a graffiti artist.
    .
    You know I just told the others that I would wait three weeks before debating wingnuts on off topic nonsense and what do you do?
    .
    You go on and on and on repeating exactly the same thing I’ve shown you time and time again is a load of bulls hit bought and paid for by oil companies.
    .
    Earl has yet to explain exactly what a “rental booking agent” is, since he believes that it has something to do with me.
    .
    It sounds like somebody who works in an Inn in Dover, England taking phone calls for guests who wish to go there over the Summer.
    .
    You’ve got to love that Earl Jr is, supposedly, the middle name and suffix of his son – who didn’t exist until yesterday. (Prior to that Earl and his wife did not have children yet).
    .
    You are making a stronger and stronger case for moderation and banning trolls from Swampland.
    .
    You should Morning Must Reads without me.
    .
    It’s got 143 comments and counting!
    .
    I should thank you all for proving the point that I discourage wingnut trolls, not encourage wingnut trolls.
    .
    But keep up all of the noise and, after liberals leave the whole show to you, Time magazine itself may start demanding moderation by 2014 rather than have an all wingnut troll crew attack them.
    .
    Thank you for proving that Rush Limbaugh feeds you and not liberal debate.

  • swissArmyBrainBETA

    elvis, very interesting explanation for Klein’s characterization of liberals. i don’t have quite such a spotless view of the left as you, but it is very tough to completely get over our first impressions like that.

  • swissArmyBrainBETA

    lol congrats paul on not puting any time/thought into your massive amounts of spam here. im reminded of the great taylor swift boasting about how she writes her songs in one quick sitting, apparently unaware of just how obvious that lack of thought was. unfortunately, you’re not a cute girl w/ a guitar so you can’t really get away w/ it outside of red-state or the like

  • rdw56

    You know I just told the others that I would wait three weeks before debating wingnuts on off topic nonsense and what do you do?

    *********************************

    Actually wasn’t it 3 weeks of not posting at all?

    You violated your pledge immediately and still hold bizzare notions you will be deciding who will post what. It’s called the totalitarian impulse. You would not be liberal if you didn’t have it.

  • rdw56

    You are making a stronger and stronger case for moderation and banning trolls from Swampland

    **************************************

    So you don’t want free speech here? You want a censor.

  • swissArmyBrainBETA

    what did joe do wrong to deserve that honor?

  • swissArmyBrainBETA

    very nice paul
    .
    welfare reform is an important point because the ppl here trying to somehow give liberals credit for that are the same ones who would have been complaining about how the democratic backers of that effort were actually center-right and had nothing to do with them… until it actually improved things

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