In the Arena

DLC RIP

Ed Kilgore has a solid obituary for the Democratic Leadership Council, which succumbed to old age this week after a significant 27-year run. But I’d like to add a few words: When I started writing a regular political column for New York Magazine in 1987, the DLC was one of the few organizations around that was thinking creatively about the urban morass that I was writing about. The Democratic Party was, in Bill Clinton’s immortal phrase, brain dead when it came to social policy issues in those days. The political correctness was so suffocating that Democrats would face an opprobrium tornado if they supported basic truths like: It is usually better to raise a child with two parents than with one. There is a culture of poverty. Criminals are not depraved because they’re deprived; they’re just depraved. The U.S. military is a very good thing and the United States is, in most cases, an overpowering force for good in the world. And, in DLC founder Al From’s immortal phrase: “The Democrats should be the party of education, not the party of teachers.”

From collected some of the best intellectual talent of the moment into the Progressive Policy Institute, especially in the domestic policy area–Bruce Reed, Elaine Kamarck, Bill Galston, Rob Shapiro; that there even was a military policy portfolio, maintained by Will Marshall, was unusual for a think tank in a party whose leaders often did not know the difference between a battalion and a brigade. DLC events, as Ed Kilgore writes, were intellectual slugfests with fierce debates on everything from affirmative action to Bill Clinton (whose first two years in office were a severe disappointment to the DLC and whose last six years were a vindication of the organization’s tenets). The creative positions that the DLC formulated on welfare policy, crime, education, the earned income tax credit and a raft of other subjects were quickly adopted by the Democratic Party. Those victories helped render the organization less relevant over time.

The DLC also had two severe deficiencies. The first was its relationship to the business community, which was driven–in large part–by the organization’s corporate sponsors. Wall Street had too much sway in the DLC; the Wall Street Democrats–people like Bob Rubin, Larry Summers, Steve Rattner, Roger Altman–tilted the policy focus away from productive corporate investment and toward financial speculation fueled by deregulation. This was not merely a policy mistake, it was a moral failure. The DLC’s support for free trade–at the expense of fair trade (demanding equal access for our products from our trading partners)–seems downright foolish in retrospect.

And then there was the war in Iraq, which the DLC supported reflexively, as a way of seeming “strong”, without ever really analyzing the intellectual weaknesses of the casus belli–which, combined with the exposure of the financial community’s depredations in 2008, provided a final crushing coda for the DLC . In a way, the difference between the DLC in the 1990s and the 2000s was the difference between Bill Clinton and Joe Lieberman.

Barack Obama’s success as a moderate-liberal transcended the old party feuds, for the most part. The Republican party became radically immoderate. The Democratic Party’s left seemed a pillar of sanity, by contrast. The DLC had few battles left to fight (ADD: And the Third Way group could fill the DLC’s role in a less obstreperous fashion). But I will remember it fondly for the intellectual stimulation it provided during some stultifying times–and for the humane, creative policy solutions it provided that have made our poorest neighborhoods safer, healthier and more prosperous.

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  • Paul-no not that one

    There’s “Third Way” now filling that role.
    .
    If this post doesn’t bring SZ back I don’t know what will.

  • Ivy_B

    Agree. Can’t speak for SZ, but I have seen his invoivement in other things as is true of another regular or two. I think a lot of people are tired of the endless bickering with no substance in the comments.

  • afguy

    Yeah, I’m STILL trying to remember those “liberal” policies Obama has actually defended (not just talked about in a positive way) but ACTUALLY fought for.
    .
    I guess if you remember his campaign rhetoric (but conveniently forget his actions and “unsolicited compromises” after elected), he MIGHT be called a “moderate liberal”.
    .
    Did stuart bail out of sheer disgust? I have noted his absence recently.

  • http://gum0nshoe.wordpress.com gumOnShoe

    Not sure myself, but I liked reading his comments/tirades…

    Usually better than the actual articles they followed.

  • paulejb

    “Barack Obama’s success as a moderate-liberal…”

    He went from moderate-liberal to radical-liberal as soon as the 2008 campaign ended. And we all know how popular that turned out to be.

  • http://elvisberg.wordpress.com Elvis Elvisberg

    Y’know, maybe you’re right about where the Democrats were in the 1980s; I was barely born then. With Bill Clinton having defined the Democratic Party for the past 20 years, I really don’t see what purpose the DLC serves anymore.

    Everything that I see in this post is a matter of messaging, not policy. Were the Dems proposing policies that had been discredited, or merely ones that had become uncool? Here, I’m thinking of the critique of our last 35 years of foreign & domestic party by Andrew Bacevich: http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/08152008/transcript1.html (where he talks about Carter, Reagan, & Bush Sr.).

    Today’s Republican Party demands that its followers believe things that are false– that cutting taxes raises revenues, that evolution & global warming are elitist plots, that we found the WMD in Iraq, that much of the rest of the world supported invading Iraq, that we didn’t torture but when we did torture it was totally ok, that the Surge worked, that the GOP has always been at war with the individual mandate. Was there anything comparable to that on the other side? Or was it just that Reagan seemed pretty cool, and spending time saying bad things about him seemed counterproductive?

    for the humane, creative policy solutions it provided that have made our poorest neighborhoods safer, healthier and more prosperous.

    I think that you and Kilgore both realize you’re kinda arguing to a wall of skepticism, here, but I misssed any description of just which policies DLC came up with fit that description. There’s the EITC (which I’d thought was a Republican thing, but obviously could be wrong).
    -
    The DLC is perceived by most Democrats, I think, to be a cowering messaging agency, rather than a vibrant policy organization.

  • 3xfire3

    Joe Klein can spin any story to fit his “dreams” which are seldom based on reality.
    .
    The Democratic Party is disintegrating and he is trying to make it look like a positive happening.
    .
    Joe is a piece of work. A Partisan’s Partisan. An Elitist with nothing to be Elite about. A dishonest JourOlist of the highest order.
    .
    At the current rate of departures, the Democratic Party in 2012 will consist of Liberals and little else. A party made up of maybe 20% of the electorate.
    .
    No wonder Obama is now in a full run to the center. Liberalism is dying in the USA. America is a center right country and wants nothing to do with Liberal/Progressivism.
    .
    Watching Joe Klein try to Spin this story is really comical. Like Liberalism Joe Klein has been rejected by the American People.

  • afguy

    Elvis, any group that counted Harold Ford as part of its braintrust has greater problems than just “messaging”.

  • palininatowel

    Good riddance. What a bunch of clowns.

  • sacredh

    I also hope that SZ is just taking a breather. I can’t blame him if he does bail though. Quite a few of us think about it. The swamp is a little bit on the addicting side even if we want to break the habit.

  • sacredh

    Lol. Yeah, Rest In Pieces DLC.

  • shepherdwong

    Nice obit, Joe. You can put either of these on their tombstone:

    The U.S. military is a very good thing…then there was the war in Iraq, which the DLC supported reflexively, as a way of seeming “strong”, without ever really analyzing the intellectual weaknesses of the casus belli.

    The first was its relationship to the business community, which was driven–in large part–by the organization’s corporate sponsors.

    You do know that the Founders detested the idea of a standing military and the police state it would inevitably produce, almost as much as they detested the influence of corporate power on government, right? And the rest of your great “truths” are also, mostly, meaningless cr@p.

  • liberalmeltdown

    Agreed 3x, reading Klein is like a trip through the liberal wormhole into an alternate universe. Everything that he states couldn’t be said because of political correctness 25 years ago, such as “the United States is, in most cases, an overpowering force for good in the world” is ridiculed and the exact opposite views are spewed on this blog and others daily by those “brain dead” Democrats.
    .
    Hard to believe that Joe Klein hasn’t noticed.
    .
    Now back to reality.
    .
    The left has gone to the extreme left. That’s why they are so bent about Obama moving to the left of center. That’s why that they think that Bush was a right wing extremist.

  • palininatowel

    Al From really believed that he was the genius behind Bill Clinton’s victories when it was obviously the other way around. Clinton made the DLC. The DLC didn’t make Clinton.
    .
    That said, I think both Clinton and the DLC were bad for the Democratic Party. They wanted so desperately to fundraise from corporate sources that they sold out the base to corporate interests. And that sell-out has only gotten worse under two terms of W and now Obama.
    .
    The Third Way strokes are just the latest incarnation of the corporate rear end-kissers that infiltrated the party under Clinton, the DLC and Terry McAuliffe’s reign of corporate butt-kissing at the DNC.
    .
    It really doesn’t make any difference if the DLC goes out of business. Business has infiltrated the party to such an extent that the real reason the DLC disappeared is because it no longer was necessary.
    .
    Maybe Carville and his Third Way cronies can spend more time doing what they do best these days: helping Third World dictators win phony elections in tinpot states.

  • liberalmeltdown

    I rest my case…see 5.1.

  • http://elvisberg.wordpress.com Elvis Elvisberg

    “He went from moderate-liberal to radical-liberal as soon as the 2008 campaign ended.”
    -
    That is made up in your brain, and is not true.
    -
    The health insurace reform plan he proposed was rooted in the Heritage Foundation’s plan: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/apr/01/barack-obama/obama-says-heritage-foundation-source-health-excha/
    -
    It’s not like we got a public option– much less any discussion of single payer!
    -
    And when Republicans were in power, they had no problem proposing cape and trade, an individual mandate, Keyensian stimulus, etc. See: http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2010_06/024459.php (Or a deficit-financed Mediccare Part D drug benefit, as opposed to the deficit-reducing health insurance reform passed last year).
    -
    But being a Republican no longer involves any views on policy; it is a manifestation of feelings of resentment. Because Republicans have convinced themselves that Obama is a liberal, a minority, and a foreigner, they don’t like what he proposes, even if it’s what they themselves proposed a few months before.

  • textee

    Is there anyone left in the Democrat party who is not a pagan, an atheist, a Marxist, a socialist, a tree hugger, an earth worshipper, a flag burner, a draft dodger, a feminist (hahahahaha!), a race baiter, a race hustler, an al Qaeda lover, an America hater or a fundamentalist homosexualist? They all act and “think” like members of the Washington/New York/American/European/Arab press corps.

  • freeinpa

    “Barack Obama’s success as a moderate-liberal transcended the old party feuds, for the most part. The Republican party became radically immoderate. The Democratic Party’s left seemed a pillar of sanity, by contrast”
    .
    JK your shamelessness is only outdone by the delusions you hold. No wonder you are a favorite of Chrissy Tingles.

    .
    If you or any member of the left media, of sorry moderate media, had done anything but taken a guided tour of the Obama campaign the moderate-liberal label would have been exposed for the punch line that it is. And to think a party with Grayson, Waxman, Sheila Jackson, Moran, or Stark can be considered to be sane sheds light on how you stepped off the curb.

    ANd guess what JK, America doesn’t buy it either

  • paulejb

    Elvis Elvisberg@3.1
    .
    Which version of a proposed health care was that? My recollection is that there was a new version submitted just about every week.

    As for the “Public Option” it was a Trojan horse for single payer.
    .

    .
    Then there is Obama on single payer.
    .

    .
    Republicans offering up a version of Democrat Lite are not representative of conservatism.

  • nflfoghorn

    I’m an al-Kada lover?
    Tell me, Text, do you enjoy wallowing in made-up ____?

  • paulejb

    Elvis Elvisberg@4,
    .
    With the death of the DLC and the retirements of Harman, Lieberman, Conrad and Webb, along with the decimation of the Blue Dog democrats in the November elections, the out line of a far left fringe Democrat Party can be seen.
    .
    This should illustrate that for you.
    .
    http://elections.nytimes.com/2010/results/house

  • http://forgottenlord.livejournal.com forgottenlord

    “It is usually better to raise a child with two parents than with one.”
    .
    It is better and more stabilizing environment for the kids of a loving household of two parents than it is for the kids of single parent households. Key words are “stable” and “loving”. If those are missing, than the equation does not hold. Furthermore, most single-family households are struggling because they lack the resources to provide a stable lifestyle to their children in a world demanding two-income families and I believe that this has far more of an impact than the fact that a parent is missing. So perhaps we should do more for single parent households making it so they do have the resources to provide that stability.
    .
    “There is a culture of poverty.”
    .
    There is a society that fails the poor. Minimum wage hasn’t kept pace with inflation. While many of the impoverished are because of their own failings or even a refusal to fix their life, that doesn’t mean they all or even a majority of them are. Is the culture of poverty and the minority that abuses the system worth destroying to punish the ones who work hard but lack the skills, training or ability to fend for themselves. Should not the most untrained person who gives their honest best shot be able to live a reasonably comfortable life?
    .
    “Criminals are not depraved because they’re deprived; they’re just depraved.”
    .
    Here you reveal a fatal assumption: “Criminals are depraved”. They’re not. Some are, but not all, not even a notable minority of them are. Do you think Bernie Madoff is depraved? Or do you think he was someone that made a series of very stupid decisions trying to fix a mistake fueled by greed that he could not fix? What about half of Wall Street? Do you think they’re depraved for continuously chasing the best deal and towards the end, trying hopelessly to make the next buck, fueled by greed and pride in a culture of increasingly short sighted moves? What about their actions is different from the kid from the ‘hood who, with no job opportunities, no college opportunities, growing up in an environment of violence and cruelty and knowing that his best opportunity for his own benefit is to join a gang?
    .
    Depraved criminals exist, but they are few and far between, and we generally don’t make excuses for them (other than “they’re crazy”). Most people are just trying to get ahead.
    .
    “The U.S. military is a very good thing and the United States is, in most cases, an overpowering force for good in the world.”
    .
    The US military has the capability of being a good thing and the United States has the capability to be an overpowering force for good in the world, but aside from Kosovo and Bosnia and the first Gulf War, aside from the incredible efforts devoted to peacekeeping by US forces, aside from the work by the National Guard to help in times of crisis, the usage of the military since Korea has generally been for the sake of pressing American interests at (at best) dubious benefit to the country in question (and its people) and occasionally to their detriment, installing or protecting dictatorships, overthrowing democracies, and often ignoring the will of those who live there.
    .
    I don’t think most Liberals don’t deny that the military is not capable of doing good things, I think they question whether it is the best way to do the things it does or if it should even be performing the tasks it does (or if it has to do so at the scale it does). It isn’t an absolute force for good, it is an absolute force for American Might. Whether American Might chooses to use its powers for good or for selfish purposes is at the heart of any issue, and whether the risk of it being used for selfish purposes and the damage caused when it does
    .
    “And, in DLC founder Al From’s immortal phrase: ‘The Democrats should be the party of education, not the party of teachers.’ ”
    .
    I can agree with this

  • liberalmeltdown

    Free, you forgot the Queen Nancy Pelosi, Harry “wave the white flag NOW” Reid, and Maxine “let’s build more projects” Waters. Very sane, only if your comparative reality is a mental institution.
    .
    Oh, I forgot the California legislature. Their mantra: raise taxes, raise taxes, raise taxes.

  • liberalmeltdown

    “The US military has the capability of being a good thing and the United States has the capability to be an overpowering force for good in the world, but aside from Kosovo and Bosnia and the first Gulf War, aside from the incredible efforts devoted to peacekeeping by US forces, aside from the work by the National Guard to help in times of crisis, the usage of the military since Korea has generally been for the sake of pressing American interests at (at best) dubious benefit to the country in question (and its people) and occasionally to their detriment, installing or protecting dictatorships, overthrowing democracies, and often ignoring the will of those who live there.”
    .
    Well if it is the will of those who live there to kill Americans…
    .
    Back into the wormhole.

  • newfreedomblog

    Actually he went from radical to moderate right after the “shellacking” he received after November 2, 2010.
    .
    Just to set the record straight.

  • newfreedomblog

    It is so refreshing to see so many “conservatives” commenting in the swamp. Despite the lamenting in the earlier part of this thread, sane and rational discussions are now the norm, not radical leftist ranting about a so-called “Third-Way” or “Centrist” controlled Democrat Party.

  • pelhamite1

    Actually, no, many of us (those who would probably be cosidered “centrists” by some who post here) do not consider Bush to be a right wing extremist. He certainly was deeply conservative, and he allowed some very extreme curtailments of civil liberties in response to the attacks of 9/11. He certainly took a laissez faire approach to regulating the business sector generally and the financial sector in particular, and helped usher in the Great Recession of 2008, but in that he had plenty of help, from both sides of the aisle. And he statrted a war that he didn’t have to, no small thing. But he was genuinely moderate about some things, including his approach to immigration and the rights of American Moslems, and in happier times he might not have been such a disastrous President.

    .

    No, the right wing extremists are the people running the Republican Party now, the ones who deny climate change in the face of an overwhelming scientific consensus, who believe the basic laws of mainstream economics have been suspended, and who believe that the US, alone among the developed nations of the world, should put millions of its citizens at risk for their health coverage. The one who believe that denying automatic weaponry to crazy people violates some sacrosanct ancient principle, even if we have to sacrifice nine year olds and college students to maintain these hallowed principles. It is kinda/sorta true that the Democratic Party had edged a little left of the bulk of the American populace on many issues in the late ’80s, and the DLC was helpful (although also infuriatingly smug) in dragging it back to the center, but at no time did it drift away over any sort of edge the way the party of Boehner, Paul and Bachmann has.

    .

    As for america being an “overpowering source of good in the world”, uh, tell it to the Egyptians.

  • pelhamite1

    The Founding Fathers were not of one mind on a standing military any more than they were on anything else. There were strong nationalaists/federalists such as Washington and Hamilton who pretty comfortable with the idea of a standing army and those, like Jefferson and Patrick Henry, who genuinely thought a standing militia in each of the states would be enough. It is important to remember, too, that America’s geographical isolation was much greater then than it is now – it took three months at least for any real enemy to ferry its army across the ocean, which allowed the colonies to forge a real army out its state militias in time to hold that invading army in check. But I think it is fair to say that the need for a major standing army was made manifest in 1861 and perhaps again in 1941, and the sate of the modern world has made whatever views Tom Jefferson might have had back at Mnoticello sort of moot.

    .

    Now, that does not mean that the US has to outspend the rest of world put together on military forces, nor act as the global policement on all six inhabited continents, but it does mean that you have to deal with the world of toay, not 1787.

  • rdw56

    He certainly took a laissez faire approach to regulating the business sector generally and the financial sector in particular, and helped usher in the Great Recession of 2008, but in that he had plenty of help, from both sides of the aisle.

    ******************************

    Be fair. Bush made an honest attempt to regulate the financial sector especially fannie and freddy and was blocked by Barney Frank and Chris Dodd, among others. They are the major culprits.

  • rdw56

    Joe is a bit of a fraud here. He too supported it before he was against it.

  • freeinpa

    Yes, what is really discouraging to the left is not what they whine about (tone and content), it is the fact that they can’t spew crap without any blow back. It’s when the mirror of reality is held up to their face they find it unbearable.

  • freeinpa

    Oh the list goes on but JK in typical liberal denial believe that these extreme left wingers are in fact moderate. Folks he considers “radically immoderate” are so only when measured from the foolish vantage point of the extreme left being moderate.

    .
    By the resignation activity in the Demo Party, Webb, Dorgan and Liebermann are now considered right wing extremists. And JK is considered a sane jounalist

  • rdw56

    The ones who deny climate change in the face of an overwhelming scientific consensus,

    *********************************************************

    Cap and trade is dead because the science sucks and you fools nominated Al Gore as your preacher. CC isn’t a science it’s a religion and there isn’t a consensus. Keep your eye on C-span in a few months when they start holding hearings on things like Climategate and why Dr James Hanson of NASA refuses to make public the publicly owned data he says makes his case. When you hide things it’s because you have something to hide.

    You need to understand something. Not only won’t we get a carbon tax but this scam called ‘peer review’ is over. Put everything on a public web site and let the really smart people in the private sector, not dependent on the federal grant gravy train, have a look see.

    BTW: Like the weather? Yeah I know, weather isn’t climate but it kind of sucks when the comics and everyone else are mocking you alarmists doesn’t it. Climate change is so friggin dead.

  • square1

    I actually liked the DLC back in the late 80s-early 90s. It is true that the organization shook up the thinking in the Democratic Party. I would argue, contrary to Joe Klein, that any sclerotic policy thinking within the Democratic Party at that point was less due to “political correctness” and more due to the fact that the Democratic Party had dominated politics for nearly 6 decades. When Gingrich won the House in 1994 the Democrats had been in control since 1949.

    IMO, the fatal flaw of the DLC was that they fell in love, not with good policy, but with being Democratic “contrarians.” That is, from 1987-1994 the DLC did a good job of mining the GOP for good ideas.

    The problem is that by the late 90s and early 00′s, the Democratic Party as a whole had fully incorporated the best conservative ideas: e.g. applying cost-benefit analyses to environmental problems, welfare reform, minimizing affirmative action, and generally using market-based solutions to solve problems. In order for the DLC to remain “centrist” and “contrarian” they had to keep distinguishing themselves as being further and further to the right of the increasingly centrist Democratic Party.

    IOW, they couldn’t be satisfied merely by supporting reasonable governmental reforms (e.g. Al Gore’s efforts to streamline the way the federal government operated and reduce waste and inefficiencies). No, the DLC had to go full-on nutso and support nearly complete deregulation.

    For the DLC, the right position was always halfway between what sane Democrats supported and what the increasingly insane GOP supported.

    Democrats want to move from a carbon-based energy society to a renewable-energy society? Republicans want to double down with coal and oil? Then the logical position MUST be in the middle: “clean coal”, even if that is a b.s. phrase.

    Democrats want to stop climate change? Republicans want to pretend it isn’t a problem? Then the logical position MUST be to implement token reforms that neither annoy business nor solve the climate problem.

    In a relatively short period of time, the DLC went from being an organization that was intellectually interesting to being a group that was just whoring for corporate bucks and social approval. When Bruce Reed was tapped as Biden’s Chief of Staff, the entire point of the (by then discredited) organization was moot. Reed had achieved power. He no longer need the DLC.

  • rdw56

    . The one who believe that denying automatic weaponry to crazy people violates some sacrosanct ancient principle, even if we have to sacrifice nine year olds and college students to maintain these hallowed principles

    ************************************************************

    Shocking to see a liberal trashing the ACLU. You do know it’s the ACLU blocking the identification of the crazies? Do you?

  • rdw56

    that much of the rest of the world supported invading Iraq

    **********************************

    Today’s GOP doesn’t give a rat’s ass about what the rest of the world thinks. Worrying about what the rest of the world thinks is a habit of teenagers and liberals.

  • pelhamite1

    I don’t agree with forgottenlord’s statement on a number of levels, but there are practically no peoples whose overrding “will” is to kill Americans, i.e. we have no real natural enemies, only those that we create. In Iran, in some parts of Pakistan, in some parts of Africa, I dare say you can assemble a crowd that can chant “Death to America”, but in none of these nations is there widespread hatred that poses a threat to ur national security. That does not mean there are not dangerous people out there, in these nations and in many others. As a nation that continues to be the focus of resentment and jealousy, as well as admiration and bewilderment, we must be mindful of our security needs, particularly in this era of “asymmetric warfare.” But we are decidedly not in the kind of twilight struggle that requires us to undermine democratic regimes that make us uncomfortable, as we did in Iran, Chile and numerous Central American nations.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    The Conservative commenter’s here full throated support for Sarah Palin, Michelle Bachmann and Ron Paul Jr. makes absolutelty clear that they haven’t a clue where the ‘center’ lies or what constututes extremism. But they sure do take comfort when enough of them are on the same thread to form an echo chamber.

  • rdw56

    the Surge worked,

    ********************************************

    It did work which is why they’re talking about giving Petraeus a 5 star and a level of immortality.

  • apr2563

    I miss SZ too. I think he is working on other initiatives. I enjoyed his intellect. However, I am hoping he comes back with more than critiques and with viable solutions and leadership to overcome the centerists.

  • apr2563

    DLC were corporate tools from the beginning. Their triangulation theory supported by the odious Dick Morris, brought us financial deregulation, strengthening of the military/industrial complex, continued demonizing of the poor, outsourcing, diminuation of unions, and a stronger olicharchy.

  • rdw56

    I think it’s fair to say with the emergence of the Tea Party and the most decisive elections of the last 80 years wherever the center is now it’s further to the right than at any time the last century. They’ve forced two moderate Senators into retirement and just recently had 6 time Senator Orrin Hatch all but beg them for a 7th term.

    The GOP isn’t just getting the Senate back it’s getting it back with by far it’s highest proportion of authentic conservatives ever.

  • liberalmeltdown

    It’s not the military that supports the most egregious, corrupt governments; it’s our foreign aid. But, liberals like that. Millions of dollars go directly to the corrupt leaders of countries such as Mexico, and then we allow them to export their poor and uneducated to us.
    .
    The situation is like a guy that goes to skid row and passes out bottles of whiskey, has them get drunk and then gives them our neighbor’s address for a place to sleep. When the neighbor complains, he’s a racist and doesn’t care about the poor.
    .
    Look what happened to the billions of dollars sent to Haiti. Where did it go? To the corrupt government. Yet we will send more federal aid to the corrupt government of Haiti, insuring that they will entrench themselves in power.
    .
    Note to Nancy Pelosi: a natural disaster, or man made destruction of property is not a way to rebuild an economy (cars for clunkers). “A pillar of sanity” my @ss. The left is more wacko than ever.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    You just proved my point. The Tea party dragging the Republicans to the right are NOT dragging the moderates and the left with them. Sarah Palin remains a joke among a significant majority of Americans.

  • pelhamite1

    Spot on, square1!

    .

    I am the sort of centrist that the DLC theoretically had in mind when they lauinched themselves ni the ’80s, and they managed to alienate even me with their perpetual need to position themselves at what they perceived as the fulcrum of the maintream right/left positions. But with both the Democrats and especially the Republicans creeping rightward, that stance became increasingly untenable. When you wake up one morning and discover that your flagship politician is Joe Lieberman, it is time to reassess a lot of things.

  • liberalmeltdown

    They lost an election, big time. Yet they still claim that they haven’t moved to the left. It’s amazing the denial.
    .

  • rdw56

    Huh, why would the TP drag anyone to the left. If the tea party is chasing out moderate republicans and democrats and replacing them with conservatives the balance of the spectrum moves right and the center with it.

    Sarah Palin isn’t in offce but she is a master fundraiser. It’s really not important what you think of her.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    why would the TP drag anyone to the left

    I said ‘and the left’ not ‘to the left’ but actually your question answers itself. Why would the TP drag people to the left? To get the eff away – of course!

  • square1

    BTW, Kudos to Joe Klein for calling out the DLC specifically for their support of the Iraq war and the financial deregulation. I will leave it to others to debate whether Joe Klein has clean hands on those issues. But, regardless, he is spot on that the DLC reflexively got the war and Wall Street oversight issues dead wrong.

  • shepherdwong

    There were strong nationalaists/federalists such as Washington and Hamilton who pretty comfortable with the idea of a standing army…
    .
    The document they created to guide the nation says otherwise. Anyway, I didn’t say that the times haven’t changed and that the Constitution didn’t need to be brought current, on occasion, with those times. That’s a “conservative’ argument. But only an authoritarian lover and someone who had been fully indoctrinated in Village marshal worship would take the unquestioning moral view that, “[t]he U.S. military is a very good thing…,” rather than a necessary evil that can be either good or bad, mostly both good and bad at the same time.

  • apr2563

    And where would those two issues rank in their damage to our country. I would say one and two. Not a proud heritage.

  • http://forgottenlord.livejournal.com forgottenlord

    “I don’t agree with forgottenlord’s statement on a number of levels”
    .
    I don’t agree with that part of my own comment. It is fatally flawed insofar as the primary purpose of any military is the protection of the interests of the home country and my arguments stem from its protection of interests in the affected countries. I just got irked at the idea that from a late-80s standpoint that the Army *is* a vessel for good after all the crap that had been happening up to that point created an inherent contradiction. Mind you, that statement has the same fundamental flaw; it isn’t an instrument of good but an instrument for protection of national interests that *can* be used for good.

  • http://forgottenlord.livejournal.com forgottenlord

    “We cut farm assistance in Colombia. Every single crop we developed was replaced with cocaine. We cut aid for primary education in northwest Pakistan and Egypt; the kids went to madrassahs. Why weren’t you making a case that Republican senators are bad on drugs, and bad on national security? Why are Democrats always so bumfuzzled? ” – Danny Concannan, The West Wing
    .
    There are some problems with the foreign aid system that should give anyone some hesitancy – particularly how it has a tendency to fund nations social programs so they can fund their militaries and secret police forces – but the test shouldn’t be “are we or are we not supporting dictatorships with our tax dollars” but rather “if our tax dollars were not being spent on these dictatorships, would that actually limit the dictatorship’s power or would it just limit what the dictatorship provides to its people”. Sadly, all-too-often the answer is no.

  • freeinpa

    “The Tea party dragging the Republicans to the right are NOT dragging the moderates and the left with them”
    .
    This is a push/pull issue. The TP does not need to pull the moderates, the left are pushing them to the point where they are running from the left. The only difference is that the left is delusional to think that its not happening.

  • freeinpa

    “I would say one and two.”

    I would say one and two. right behind liberalism— fixed it for you

  • rdw56

    Why would the TP drag people to the left? To get the eff away – of course!

    ******************************

    Not bad! For some reason I had to re-read that 5x’s before I caught my mistake.

    Nice comeback but I disagree. You have I think 23 Dems in the Senate up for re-election with a dozen in red or purple states. All of them have to be concerned the Tea Party will come after to them and it’s going to force them to move right to minimize the threat. Webb just retired because of it. Nelson has to be thinking about it while Tester and McCaskill should be aware they are less than 50-50 to keep their jobs.

    There is no doubt the TP has captured the raw fear of the gigantic deficits Obama seems bored by. There are at least 30 states that s/b defined as fiscally conservative and thus 60 Senators who need to be aware of the TP. THat includes the democrats.

  • rdw56

    But only an authoritarian lover and someone who had been fully indoctrinated in Village marshal worship would take the unquestioning moral view that, “[t]he U.S. military is a very good thing…,

    ***************************************

    The US military is absolutely, positively a VG thing and always has been. Who was there when Indonesia was hit by a massive wave? It wasn’t the UN. It wasn’t the French or Germans, Russians or Chinese. Same thing a few months later when Pakistan flooded. This happens all the time bit liberals ignore it. Piracy would be global if not for the US Military. Saddam would be in Kuwait and possibly further. South Korea would be a socialist gulag. A free and democratic Korea is not authoritarian. Massive humanitarian ops are not authoritarian.

  • liberalmeltdown

    Much better free, thanks.
    .
    17.1 you base your policy on a TV drama? How many steps from reality is that?
    .
    If we bought food from Columbia instead of cocaine, that might solve your TV drama’s problem. Or, they could hire some conservative writers.
    .
    Our tax dollars never find their way out of the corrupt government’s hands. So, the people don’t benefit at all. Unless you are on the ground actually spending the money to build schools and give aid directly to the people, you might just as well put your money on a rocket and fire it into space and say “there I spread it around the globe.”
    .
    There are only a few organizations that actually have people in country directly helping people.

  • stuartzechman

    You folks are too nice. It’s amazing to realize that people notice my absence, very gratifying. Thank you.
    .
    I’m working my crap off, I haven’t bailed on Swampland.
    .
    I don’t write for a living, I do incredibly complex and intense technology stuff.
    .
    It is also true that the Virtually Speaking Saturday show that Jay Ackroyd and I are doing requires a great deal of preparation (and even then I’m still sometimes wrong on the facts –I’m going to issue a correction this Saturday).
    .
    There’s a lot going on, but I’ll get it together.
    .
    Obviously, wildly false assertions like “Barack Obama’s success as a moderate-liberal” deserve correction, which, at some point, I hope to be able to provide.

  • rdw56

    Now, that does not mean that the US has to outspend the rest of world put together on military forces, nor act as the global policemen on all six inhabited continents

    ************************************************

    Wow, I agree with you. I never understood why we kept such a large presence in Europe or SK or even in Japan. Bush was wise to shut down Europe. After Obama finishes pulling the bulk out of Iraq I’d like to see a much smaller offshore footprint. You’d also be surprised many conservatives would like to see the defense budget at least frozen until it’s gets back under 4% of GDP. That said I’d not cut defense R&D because it’s not just the world of today but of tomorrow. China is going to be a problem. I’d not put 100,000 troops on their doorstep as we did in Germany but encourage SK, Japan, Indonesia, Vietnam, India to coordinate their defenses. I’d also try to reorient R&D toward productivity as Israel has been doing. They are using technology to make their soldiers more lethal yet safer. Using drones and advanced digital imaging technology Israel is working to reduce manpower demand and costs. We should do the same.

  • shepherdwong

    The US military is absolutely, positively a VG thing and always has been.
    .
    The millions of dead and grievously injured civilian non-combatants, around the world, and all of their families who suffer from the direct actions of US military personnel, might have a slightly different outlook. Interesting peek at “like minds,” though.

  • http://forgottenlord.livejournal.com forgottenlord

    That doesn’t mean the center has gone right, it means the Democrats are being spooked by shadows again (well….that and the fact that it does cost a fair bit of money and energy to defend that many locations….).
    .
    Lest we forget, the Tea Partiers saved the Democrats from losing the Senate.

  • liberalmeltdown

    13.1, tried to reply to you earlier with about 30 links to the 1400 years of the history of Jihad. Apparently Time can’t handle the truth.
    .
    There are millions of peole out there; religious zealots that only need a little prodding to become the next terrorist bomber. And, they want to kill Americans. Duh.
    .
    http://www.islam-watch.org/HistoryOfJihad/index.html

  • rdw56

    Of course that’s what it means. When Ben Nelson realizes he can’t take any more of the moderate votes he’s taken especially on spending and judges and he moves right that means the center has moved right. When Bill Toomey replaces Arlen Spector that’s a move right.

    This is what I think 99% of liberals are missing. It isn’t just that the GOP picked up so many seats it’s that this Freshman class in both houses as well as at the state level is by far the most conservative ever elected. Toomey is as conservative as Santorum. Rubio is the most conservative Senator ever elected in Florida and Lee in Utah is as conservative as those two and he replaced a conservative Senator in Bennett.

    As far as costing the Senate I think you are off. It certainly cost them Delaware but on a net basis it wasn’t 3 seats. As a conservative who agreed with GWBs brain, Karl Rove, that replacing Castle in Delaware was bonehead stupid because it was going to cost them the seat there’s another way to look at it and that’s the message it sent to the GOP leadership to get more conservative candidates. The rule in 2012 for the GOP will be, “Thou shall nominate ONLY ardent fiscal conservatives and oraginalists”.

    I’ve pointed out before the only people more disgusted by the TP than liberals are moderates, especially i the GOP. The TP isn’t going to challenge Chuck Schumer or Bernie Sanders. They’re blue guys from overwhelmingly blue states. They’re going after Nelson, Tester, Casey, McCaskill, etc., and they just bagged Webb.

    What I think we saw was the initial stages of movement that is authentically grass roots and because it’s decentralized it’s also disorganized with varying qualities of leadership in the states. Their strength surprised even them. They don’t have the ability of a GOP organization to vet candidates thus you get mistakes like DE. The test is 2012 when we’ll see the GOP more closely coordinate their efforts with the TP and the TP better screen their candidates.

    It’s also going to do something else just as important. Smart people thinking of running, especially for Senator will know before they state they better have religion on spending and judges or they don’t have a prayer and if their background doesn’t match their newfound religion they better have a damn good story or they’ll just waste time and money.

    To summarize: The TP clearly cost a seat or 2 in the Senate but it delivered a very conservative freshman class and has a very good chance of ensuring authentic conservatives only apply for another generation. Arlen Spector was out Senato for 20 years. He could not win a primary in 2012.

  • rdw56

    The hundreds of millions of people in Western Europe who still speak their native tongues rather than either German and Russian are quite happy the US showed up in 1917 and1942. A few people in the Pacific I would imagine as well. There are of course the muslims in the Kosovo region and Kuwait as well as INdonesia and Pakistan who would have died without their efforts.

    One of the most famous clips from a Fox news roundtable was just after the tidal wave hit Indonesia and for a week there was chaos wand helplessness with the exception of the US Military which got there almost immediately and was delivering massive amounts of food, water and fuel and with the marines working 24/7 . Not France, Not Germany, Russia or China, certain;y not the UN. It was the USA. Some twit at the UN was dumb enough to call Americans stingy while all of this was going on. CiCi Connelly made the mistake of agreeing with the UN while sitting next to Krauthammer. It wasn’t 5 seconds after he started talking she knew she made a really bad mistake. It was the worst verbal beating I’ve ever seen.

    It’s not something the MSM likes doing. Showing the US Military, especially the Marines at their humanitarian best. Liberals want us to think of Abu Garhib when we think of the military. Their humanitarian efforts are supposed to be secret. Not on Fox they’re not.

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