A Rare Glimpse of the Real Legal Debate Over Health Care

It’s been a disheartening week for supporters of Democratic health care reform. On Monday, a second federal judge ruled that their signature health reform law is unconstitutional. Democrats maintain that the Affordable Care Act – including its individual mandate – is perfectly legal. They point out that two other federal judges have agreed with them and that the Supreme Court’s opinion is really the only one that matters and that won’t come for many, many months. But this “move along, nothing to see here” strategy hasn’t really been getting much traction. Republican-led court challenges, especially the successful ones, have been (understandably) attracting all the attention.

So earlier today, in a very large room on Capitol Hill, Democratic Sen. Dick Durbin convened a hearing on the constitutionality of the individual mandate. Invited to testify before the assembled judiciary committee, controlled by Democrats, were five esteemed attorneys. Three, including Reagan solicitor general Charles Fried, had previously stated they believed that the individual mandate was perfectly constitutional.

Rather than shift the discussion toward the side of constitutionality, however, the Durbin hearing actually legitimized the legal debate now underway. Even though the majority of committee members and witnesses in the room were on the side of the Affordable Care Act’s constitutionality, the conversation that ensued was hardly a one-sided partisan demonstration of power. It was more like a thought-provoking and incredibly friendly law school class discussion.

At issue was the Affordable Care Act provision that requires, beginning in 2014, every American to maintain health insurance coverage. Under this rule, those without public insurance or work-based coverage would be required to purchase policies in the private market. If they don’t, they would be subject to large fines. This mandate is far beyond what the federal government can do under the Constitution, argue those challenging the law in court, who further say if the individual mandate is allowed to stand, there will be no limits on federal power. Defenders of the provision say the health care system and health insurance system clearly fall under the category of “commerce,” something the federal government has the right to regulate.

Walter Dellinger, a solicitor general under Clinton and a Duke law professor, characterized the individual mandate as “rather unremarkable” and said it was “no more intrusive than Social Security or Medicare.” Michael Carvin, a Reagan Administration attorney, said the individual mandate amounted to regulation of “inactivity” – not buying insurance – an unprecedented overreach by the federal government. The Atlanta Journal Constitution‘s Jamie Dupree reporting on the hearing, wrote that the assembled legal minds, “tossed around the names of cases like some sports nut might know the roster of the 1972 Chicago Black Hawks or the 1968 Detroit Tigers.” It’s true. All five lawyers, who referred to each other by their first names, were clearly very well-versed in the issues at hand and seemed to enjoy mentally sparring with each other, citing everything from the Federalist Papers to Supreme Court cases from 1905 to 2005.

Fried pointed out that if the Democratic authors of the Affordable Care Act had merely structured the individual mandate penalty as a straight tax, the legal battle now underway could have been avoided. If the law, for instance, taxed every American and gave an equivalent tax break to those who can prove they have health insurance, there would be no debate. Such a design would be functionally equivalent to the individual mandate. The Democratic majority Congress “didn’t do this for political reasons,” said Fried. “It didn’t want to have this viewed as a tax and now they are paying the price in that they have to confront this discussion.”

Watching the attorneys and senators, many of whom were also lawyers, banter back and forth, one could easily imagine the discussion taking place before the Supreme Court. Neither side walked away from today’s conversation with a political victory in hand. On the contrary, the hearing was a welcome bit of honest debate in a climate in which partisan rhetoric sometimes seems to take over all conversation in the public eye.

Related Topics: affordable care act, charled fried, health reform, individual mandate, michael carvin, walter dellinger, Health Care
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  • afguy

    Don’t forget the 14 or so consulted who already decided that it passes constitutional muster. On second thought, let’s forget that.
    .
    We all know the REAL story is the one that just declared it unconstitutional while using talking points right out of the RW playbook.
    .
    That’s a much better story to run with… right?

  • nflfoghorn

    It’s a “much better story” ’cause there’s no further investigation by the media needed, apparently.

  • afguy

    Fried pointed out that if the Democratic authors of the Affordable Care Act had merely structured the individual mandate penalty as a straight tax, the legal battle now underway could have been avoided.
    .
    Yeah, something called a “tax” was REALLY going to make it past the GOP during that last Congress.
    .
    Mark this up as another in a long series of problems caused by having to structure or word things simply to get certain GOP Senators on board.

  • deconstructiva

    Kate, thanks for this post. Alas, who reads this blog besides the commentariat and KT? Do your teammates read this daily? (Or not due to avoiding our rants and insults busy workload?) As I mentioned at your post yesterday …in case YOU didn’t read the comments… you need to go on teevee and calmly explain that this is just a scorecard until SCOTUS settles it. So any “rare glimpses” need to be exposed to the public …by YOU if the pundits won’t do it.
    .
    But before you go on Hardball (don’t let Matthews talk over you, ask Jay for help), how much did the repeal crowd at hearing invoke states rights for regulating insurance? After all, some R’s want us to purchase cheapest policies in best states with min. regulation or better yet, none. So would this count as crossing state lines, thus invoking interstate commerce? Soc. Sec. / Medicare ok, ACA not? Moving goalposts?

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    declared it unconstitutional while using talking points right out of the RW playbook.

    Worse yet, he pointed struck down provisions whose Constitutionality wasn’t in question. To me that poisons the entire opinion.

  • apr2563

    Kate, are you witnessing any of this openess and rational discussion from Republican pols?

  • afguy

    Nah, easier to talk about Durbin “legitimizing the legal debate”…
    .
    Any lack of constructive GOP input to the discussion is fast becoming a “dog bites man” situation… to be expected and, therefore, not newsworthy.

  • kbanginmotown

    An interesting read today over at TPM, in which a proposed “gun mandate” meant to ridicule the ACA, was actually signed into law by…George Washington in 1792!
    .
    http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/anti-hcr-gun-mandate-stunt-meets-george-washington.php?ref=fpblg

  • nflfoghorn

    Tax = Death Panels = Burying Grandma

  • afguy

    Has anyone mentioned recently how badly our media sucks at real reporting any more??
    .
    If not, consider it done.

  • americanwithabrain

    If you don’t mind the government telling you you have to buy insurance, don’t ever fuss in the future if they tell you you have to buy something else. Even if it’s Sarah Palin’s latest book. Sound stupid? If you had told me 2 years ago that “Hope and Change” would mean I’d have to buy ANYTHING because the federal government said so, I’d have said the sounds stupid too.

  • Paul-no not that one

    To be fair there were just as many, if not more, concessions to the Blue Dogs as there were to the republicans.

  • afguy

    Right now, I’d settle for the government telling everyone that, if we are sending our armed forces to fight wars, EVERYONE below a certain age is required to serve (regardless of social status or connections).
    .
    A LOT of our long-term financial problems would be solved almost immediately, because we’d suddenly find that most of our foreign adventures, costing billions a day, would drop in popularity and importance.

  • apr2563

    The Republicans were proposing insurance mandates from the Nixon years, before they were against it. Not a new concept. It is called spreading the risk, Law of Large Numbers.
    .
    http://geniusofinsanityworld.blogspot.com/2010/03/insurance-mandate-was-originally.html

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Indeed, having grown up when “what’s your lottery number?” was as important a question as “how’s your day?” I don’t have a lot of sympathy for people who want to be a drain on our medical system……

  • afguy

    apr, I’ve given up expecting ideological consistency from that quarter.

  • artraveler

    Kill HCR=Insurance companies win=Republican-backed corporate death panels.

  • artraveler

    Yes, bring back the draft for BOTH sexes.

    Then, if a income tax of 2% on the lowest total incomes (salary and investment) up to 10% of the highest had been tied to the war resulution, it would have been over in 6 weeks if it would have been allowed to start at all.. Cheney would not have let it go that much longer and risk his income. Can’t risk Republicans actually having to pay for any part of their government, that’s for the little people who work with their hands.

  • paulejb

    Paul Dirks@1.2,

    Don’t blame the judge, Paul. The authors of ObamaCare insisted that the entire bill was built on the foundation of the “individual mandate.” No individual mandate and the entire edifice collapses. I believe that the term “hoist by their own petard” applies here.

  • oboe14

    “It’s been a disheartening week for supporters of Democratic health care reform.”

    However, it’s been a helluva week for supporters of democratic health care reform.

  • http://elvisberg.wordpress.com Elvis Elvisberg

    I think afguy is right to criticize the “this is legitimizing the debate” point.
    -
    First off, it’s punditry, without any grounding whatsoever. Second off, it’s unfalsifiable– one could just as well say, “by waiting so long to make a public case for the bill’s constitutionality, Democrats allowed the GOP to set the terms of debate.”
    -
    Perhaps this is a rare glimpse of the legal underpinnings of the past half century of Commerce Clause jurisprudence… but if it’s rare.. it’s only because the media is terrible at reporting the news, as afguy points out. There’s no law against doing useful reporting even if there’s not a press conference telling reporters what the news is.
    -
    The WH press corps is getting all cranky because the WH isn’t spoonfeeding them enough while it’s responding to the crisis in Egypt. See: http://www.frumforum.com/wh-reporters-obama-shutting-us-out#comment-240230 They feel that way because they have no idea how to do their jobs in any kind of way that adds to public understanding. As a consequence, all their companies are going bankrupt.

  • afguy

    paulie, do those who have previously found no problem with the law not enter into your consideration?
    .
    I think it’s the presence of the RW talking points in his explanation that make us suspect his “objectivity”.

  • americanwithabrain

    Wasn’t this topic about health care debate? You guys are all over the map about war and the draft; and Dick Cheney (who even you must admit has NOTHING to do with Obamacare). You just have trouble focusing don’t you? Maybe that’s why so few Democratic lawmakers actually READ the bill before they signed it. (sigh)… ok, I give up, I throw some chicken in the gator pit: Sarah Palin!!! George bush!!! Hanging Chads!!! Karl Rowe!!! Mission Accomplished!! Now they’ll be some thrashing about. : – )

  • Ivy_B

    I’d be happy if everyone were insured so we all wouldn’t be paying exhorbitant costs for emergency room care.
    .
    I suspect that many who look at that as their little backup don’t realize that all the law requires is that the patient be stabilized, then they can be released. I don’t want to pay for the care for all those without insurance. We never hear about the costs of that, which was signed into law by Reagan.
    .
    Just as I don’t want to pay for the people who wind up with major injuries because their freedom is infringed by a requirement to weat a helmet while riding a motorcycle. The very liberal Ed Rendell signed a repeal of that law.

  • paulejb

    afguy@2,

    Barack Obama went out of his way to insist emphatically that the “individual mandate” was not a tax. He told George Stephanopolous in no uncertain terms that he was in error for calling the mandate a tax.

    Until the special Senate election in January 2010. The Democrats had all the votes they needed to pass ObamaCare without even one Republican vote. The problem is that they dithered while certain Democrat Senators squeezed the last drop of goodies for their states out of the bill.

    Even after the Republicans gained the 41st vote with the election of Scott Brown, Democrats simply changed the rules to pass the bill.

    These people have no one to blame but themselves. They jammed this turkey through despite the objections of the majority of Americans and now they are getting their comeuppance.

  • afguy

    They jammed this turkey through despite the objections of the majority of Americans and now they are getting their comeuppance.
    .
    Jammed through? Objections of the majority of Americans? Nice framing there.
    .
    Seems that I remember enough discussion and inclusion of GOP points to get members on-board (remember Grassley, Snowe, and Collins?) during the process to make a lot of us sick of the direction it was going.
    .
    This turkey, as you call it, has got GOP input (also bad-faith negotiation and obstructionism) stamped all over it.

  • Ivy_B

    Greg Sargent has an interview with another conservative legal scholar who raises a different point. In multiple cases, he said, the federal government has already regulated “inactivity,” and it has passed muster with the Constitution.

    Interesting read.

    http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plum-line/2011/02/conservative_legal_scholar_we.html

  • afguy

    I believe it started with YOU not wanting the government telling you what to do about something.

  • bostonian2307

    Typical of you americanwithab, you get rebuffed then write a blog post that means absolutely nothing.

    The requirement to buy something or face a large fine is something that goes back to George Washington as evidenced by The Militia Act of 1792.

    http://www.constitution.org/mil/mil_act_1792.htm

    This act requires the recruitment of all able bodied (white male) citizens between 18-45 to enter a militia. It also required that they purchase their own firearm or face a penalty of 1 year salary.

    So how would you feel if you were forced to buy a gun rather than health insurance and were otherwise penalized for not owning one? George Washington obviously felt that it was acceptable.

  • paulejb

    afguy@1.4,

    Not really. I dismiss their opinions as merely echoing the party line. It is indeed “a bridge to far” to claim that mandating that citizens must purchase a privately sold commodity is authorized by the commerce clause.

    Where would it end? Can the government order us to purchase electric cars? How about solar panels? Windmills?

  • afguy

    Fact of the matter, AWAB, I think you and the rest of the RW thrill seekers here could use some time with a loud, obnoxious “government representative”, wearing a Smokey Bear hat, telling you what to do from a distance of about 3 inches from your nose.
    .
    I’m sure some of the troops in the ME on their 4th deployment would appreciate it too.
    .
    Consider it a down payment on your debt to the nation…

  • americanwithabrain

    And you think I approved of the Militia act because…?
    I wouldn’t have liked it either. You have made the mistake of extrapolating and predicting how I feel about something totally unrelated to health care and something I have not addressed in any way, and you put words into my mouth and mold a position for me to take on it based on your preconceived notions. Bad mistake. You might as well tell me how I feel about Brussels sprouts, because you have no idea about that either. Why don’t you just read my words, assume that I’m being truthful in expressing my opinions, and direct your reply to what I have said instead of what you imagine my thoughts to be?

  • paulejb

    afguy@2.5,

    The ObamaCare bill was an exercise of Democrat hubris. The 2008 election results convinced them that they had a mandate to transform America into just another version of European Socialist countries. They convinced themselves that the zeitgeist provided the wind beneath their wings. They were wrong.

    America remains a center-right country. Americans do not want their country to become another France, Greece or Spain. They resoundingly told the Democrat party that on November 2, 2010.

    58% of likely voters want ObamaCare repealed. The bill is facing assault on three fronts. In the House, in the Courts and in the States, there are efforts to dismantle this abomination before it takes hold. I would not give it much of a chance of survival.

  • americanwithabrain

    Bostonian: Just because you don’t or can’t understand something don’t assume that it means nothing. That’s really arrogant of you.

  • paulejb

    bostonian2307,

    You neglected to mention the the Militia Act of 1792 regarded the nationalization of the State militias in the case of invasion, danger of invasion or of insurrection.

    You also failed to mention that the fine of one years pay resulted from not following the orders of the Commander-in-Chief.

  • paulejb

    afguy@8.2,

    And just think, afguy. If we went through all that and managed to advance to high rank, we could look forward to some White House flunky demanding that we get her a glass of wine. Oh, the joy.

  • bostonian2307

    As written by you in a previous post battle (http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2011/02/01/republicans-step-up-attacks-on-health-care-law/#ixzz1CqV27OwP)

    “The forcing of United States citizens to buy anything, even if you can “put lipstic on the pig” and convince the uneducated masses that it’s for their own good, is a travesty of the Constitution.”

    You expressed that being compelled to buy anything is against the constitution. I figured that if the guy who presided over the creation of the Constitution felt that it wasn’t against said document to compel citizens to buy something, then your view might be changed.

    The two are not completely unrelated. In both cases, citizens are being compelled to buy something of face a large fine. One was deemed constitutional by the guy who helped write it. A reasonable inference could be made that for the greater good, people could be compelled to purchase health insurance as well. (We already compel the purchasing of auto insurance anyways.)

    What are your feelings on Jury Duty? People are compelled to attend jury duty or be otherwise penalized. Without it, our justice system would fail.

    These are a few examples of citizens being compelled to buy or participate in something for the greater good of the country. Do you disagree/resent with all of these?

  • carotexas1

    Kate, we heard a lot about the insurance companies while the bill was being passed and I did not think they ever complained about the mandate. I have not heard anything being reported on how they feel about this or are they only letting politicians know out of public eye.
    They seem to have so much influence while the bill was being passed I find it hard they are not reacting to losing all those customers.

  • bobcn1

    ‘Indeed, having grown up when “what’s your lottery number?” was as important a question as “how’s your day?” I don’t have a lot of sympathy…’
    .
    You’re dating yourself, Paul. I would guess that most of the posters here won’t understand your lottery reference. You have a good point, however.
    .
    BTW – mine was 11.

  • bostonian2307

    The commander in chief’s orders were to purchase a gun or be penalized a year’s salary. Commander in chief = president…

    Yes, that concerned the nationalization of the militias, however as we have seen from the national guard, that didn’t fully happen. States still exert some control over their national guard which also works in concert with the national military.

  • bostonian2307

    oops didn’t read full post,

    yes it mobilized the militia in regards to imminent danger, however given the current state of health care expenditures in this country, an argument could be made that such a situation exists

  • paulejb

    Ivy_B@9,

    Think about Hills’ argument, Ivy.

    Yes, the federal government may draft you to preserve the life of the nation but it is not for life. At most it is for the duration of the conflict. You also may be excused from the draft for reasons of health or family. And Yes, you may be called for jury duty. Again it is not for a lifetime, and you may be excused for reasons of health or family.

    The “individual mandate” is for life. There is no getting out of it. It’s like the mafia. Once you’re in – you’re in. There’s no getting out.

    See the difference?

  • paulejb

    bostonian@10.2,

    The Commander-in-Chief’s order to purchase a gun was directed to members of the Militia who were under his command. He did not order every citizen of the United States to purchase a gun.

  • paulejb

    bostonian@10.3,

    The health care insurance system of the United States is hardly in crisis comparable to an invasion. 80% of Americans were satisfied with the health insurance carriers when this all started.

    Obama, himself, swore that if you were satisfied with your plan and your doctor that you would be able to keep them. Of course, he was lying. That is why some 729 businesses and unions have requested waivers of ObamaCare regulations and have received them.

    There was no reason for a 2600 page monstrosity of a law to be enacted to fix the faults in the system.

  • paulejb

    bostonian@13,

    Please see my comment at 9.1.

  • sasquatch08

    I really don’t understand this debate.
    .
    First, off I agree. A hearing was a good idea, it might help cut through some of the partisan rhetoric that does nothing but waste oxygen. On the flip side of that coin you have to be invited to testify, and Senators generally invite people who are going to tell them what they want to hear. Are the Democrats really going to invite people who will argue that the law is Unconstitutional? That’s about as likely as the TEA Party Republican inviting someone to argue that the law IS Constitutional.
    .
    Secondly, why does everyone care so much what these Federal Judges think? Their opinion only matters if it’s the same one SCOTUS has, otherwise they’re overruled and irrelevant. People talk about how there’s two who ruled it Constitutional and two that ruled in Unconstitutional. It’s 2-2, like it’s a freaking hockey game.
    .
    Granted, they do have some interesting insight since this is relatively new area of legal wrangling, but getting all worked up over it and slandering a Judge for an opinion you don’t like is a bit over the top.

  • apr2563

    Kate: I appreciate your updates on HCA.
    .
    Why is this a problem for the traditional media?
    .
    http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2011_02/027790.php
    .
    “HOW THE MEDIA COVERS HEALTH CARE RULINGS…. Four federal district courts have heard challenges testing the constitutionality of the Affordable Care Act. Two judges concluded the law is legally permissible, two came to the opposite conclusion.

    But it occurs to me the public has heard quite a bit more about the latter than the former. Indeed, it seems as if the media largely ignored court rulings that bolstered the arguments of health care reform proponents, while making a very big deal about rulings celebrated by conservatives.

    My perceptions, though, are just that — personal observations, subject to opinions and reliant on memory. Let’s go a little further, and quantify matters a bit.”
    .
    Read the stats.

  • sasquatch08

    “however given the current state of health care expenditures in this country, an argument could be made that such a situation exists”
    .
    I fail to see the correlation between rising health care costs and Paul Revere’s Ride (ie an invasion of the mainland United States). I think you probably overstated that… way overstated that. Perhaps in real life your name is Chicken Little?
    .
    “Commander in chief = president…”
    .
    Yes, and failure to follow his orders when you’re in the military gets you a Court Martial these days. I’m not arguing in favor of conscription here, but once you’re in the military, you’re in the military and you follow orders. It doesn’t matter how you got there. We hanged a couple people who were drafted into WWII for repeatedly not following orders or cowardice.
    .
    I know it might seem like splitting hairs, but if you were never called up, The Militia Act of 1792 never applied to you. Once you were called up, you were in the military and expected to follow orders. As long as you showed up to muster with your rifle you were fine, you could buy it on the way if need be, it didn’t have to be hanging over your mantel just in case you were called up.
    .
    Not to mention that back then pretty much every man age 18-45 had a rifle anyway…

  • freeinpa

    “Worse yet, he pointed struck down provisions whose Constitutionality wasn’t in question. To me that poisons the entire opinion.”
    .
    You can’t swing a dead cat at a Demo function or Congress without hitting a lawyer, but for some reason Team Donkey did not put in the “severability clause” in this masterpiece. And now you are annoyed because without it the over reach of Congress makes it all unconstitutional.
    .
    He also quoted Obambi “‘if a mandate was the solution, we can try that to solve homelessness by mandating everybody to buy a house,’”
    .
    While the Harvard law genius didn’t recognize that it was unconstitutional for Congress to mandate the purchase of anything, he did know it was crappy policy. A liberal twofor

  • sasquatch08

    Interesting side bar to this topic:
    .
    Science has determined that two drinks a day for men and one for women is quite beneficial. It reduces the chances of death from any major cause by 18%, and people who drink 1-2 drinks a day (men) or 1 a day (women) have better cognitive functions later in life as compared to those who do not. (USDA 2010 Dietary Guidelines for Americans/Italian study found on MSNBC.)
    .
    Therefore; I could make the argument that’s made for the ACA: Alcohol sale is interstate commerce, which it most assuredly is, and that “moderate” drinking is good for your health so under the general welfare clause it shall be decreed by Congress and the President that all persons in the United States shall buy a minimum of enough liquor to ingest two drinks a day or face a fine (tax, whatever you want to call it).
    .
    Of course we’ll have to lower the drinking age, because not doing so would be denying 16-21 year olds their health! Or is it 14-21 year olds?
    .
    Further there are studies out there which show that areas of high legal gun ownership have less violent crime than area’s with low legal gun ownership.
    .
    So we’ll cherrypick a few of those studies that show that guns are “good” and add that into the law as well. So go buy your guns and booze… or else! [Nothing could possibly go wrong with that idea, especially if add God knows what to it and make it 2700 pages long.]
    .
    And if you’re not on board with this idea, clearly you don’t care about Americas health, are a member of the “Party of NO”, support violent criminals, you’re a racist bigot and you probably kick puppies when no one is watching.

  • rwbbinla

    @10.5 Do you think that 80% of the 30 million Americans who do not have insurance are happy with their coverage?

  • sasquatch08

    You make a good point about media bias, but it seems to depend on where you get your news.
    .
    Fox made a semi-big deal about the Judges who found the ACA to be Constitutional, I mean they covered it like any other story. As far as I saw it was nothing more than a foot-note on CNN or MSNBC.
    .
    The main reason I think you’re noticing this is two fold: 1) A lot of the media and the people in it do have a liberal slant, it just depends on how much slant there is. These people range from somewhat surprised about the most recent ruling, to positively outraged. Well I didn’t see him say anything, I’m sure Ed Shultz is on blood pressure meds after this ruling. Others are just surprised that the judge didn’t sever the mandate from the law as the Judge in Virginia did.
    .
    2)There’s money in outrage. It sells. It’s what Hannity or Limbaugh do. They take a story that is somewhat offensive to their listeners and hype it up until people are yelling “THEY DID WHAT WITH MY TAX MONEY!?!?” at their radio. People on the liberal side of things like Maddow and Shultz do the same thing. CNN traffics in this crap, but to a lesser extent.
    .
    Just look here in the Swamp where people were saying this Judge is nothing more than a shill for the Repubicans, or that he wanted to run for public office and was trying to appease the TEA Party. Both obvious nonsense. He has a different interpretation of the Constitution, some think it’s right, some think it’s wrong.
    .
    Media wants to make money off both, and they know that it’s the liberals who will go batty over this ruling, mainly because he struck down the whole thing rather than just the individual mandate (lets be honest, it’s 50/50 at best that its found Constitutional). Conservatives (other than that lunatic Savage on the radio) basically didn’t care about the previous rulings, they actually know that this is going to the Supreme Court and that theirs is the only decision that matters. They might not agree with a Judge, but they’re not going to sit there watching Hannity on FNC frothing at the mouth like Shultz’s fans do.
    .
    Just like you the preceding is just my opinions and observations.

  • rwbbinla

    Maybe the argument is not what is “good for your health”, but how your health is paid for. No matter how it is spun, healthcare is paid for, either in a cost effective manner or an expensive manner.

  • afguy

    paulie,
    .
    I’d just settle for those most supportive of our little warmaking enterprises to have gone through it at all… regardless of the rank.
    .
    Your consistent attempts to make negative comments about this White House in any way possible are duly noted.
    .
    Perhaps, when you have a moment, you might try to add something constructive to the discussion, aside from the continuous snark. We are interested in any CONSTRUCTIVE proposals the TP and conservatives might have to grow the economy. We know what you’re against.

  • paulejb

    afguy@8.4,

    Not snark, never snark. Just clever repartee.

    As for “CONSTRUCTIVE” proposals, here are just a few,

    1. Roll back spending levels to pre-2008.

    2. Reduce the federal work force to 2007 levels.

    3. Reform entitlement programs.

    4. Repeal ObamaCare.

    5. Honor the Constitution in word and spirit.

  • paulejb

    rwbbinla@10.7,

    It shouldn’t take a 2600 page bill to fix the problem of the uninsured. The Democrat attitude about the health care system reminds me of the attitude in the Vietnam era where it was famously said, “We had to destroy the village in order to save it.”

  • apr2563

    sasquatch: I avoid watching Fox and never listen to hate radio.
    The statistics I linked to involved the following:
    .
    Washington Post
    * Steeh ruling (pro-reform): A2, 607 words
    * Moon ruling (pro-reform): B5, 507 words
    * Hudson ruling (anti-reform): A1, 1624 words
    * Vinson ruling (anti-reform): A1, 1176 words

    New York Times
    * Steeh ruling (pro-reform): A15, 416 words
    * Moon ruling (pro-reform): A24, 335 words
    * Hudson ruling (anti-reform): A1, 1320 words
    * Vinson ruling (anti-reform): A1, 1192 words

    Associated Press
    * Steeh ruling (pro-reform): one story, 474 words
    * Moon ruling (pro-reform): one story, 375 words
    * Hudson ruling (anti-reform): one story, 915 words
    * Vinson ruling (anti-reform): one story, 1164 words

    Politico
    * Steeh ruling (pro-reform): one story, 830 words
    * Moon ruling (pro-reform): one story, 535 words
    * Hudson ruling (anti-reform): three stories, 2734 words
    * Vinson ruling (anti-reform): four stories, 3437 words

  • sasquatch08

    If drinking a few makes you healthier, it by definition brings down the cost of healthcare. Healthy people aren’t going to a doctor for treatment.
    .
    That was my point. Since it’s been proven to make people healthier, hence reducing health care costs, does it not make just as much sense as the ACA that we should mandate that people drink on a daily basis? Common sense says yes, it makes just as much sense as any other mandate on health care the government could make.
    .
    If Congress can, and “should” (for the general welfare, as the argument is made) mandate things on healthcare such as requiring insurance, than Congress can and “should” also mandate that we act in ways that bring down the cost of healthcare.
    .
    That means mandatory gym memberships, healthy diets, two drinks a day, quit smoking programs for smokers etc.
    .
    I find it rather odd that liberals argue Congress was well within it’s powers to pass the ACA, and was morally obligated to do so for the welfare of the country, yet they aren’t willing to take the next logical and necessary step, which I just outlined.
    .
    Here’s the facts: you don’t need 2700 pages to reform healthcare, I can do it in 50, or max 100. You also don’t need 2700 pages to give the public the few goodies (table scraps if you ask me) that Democrats are championing and Republicans like too, such as no denying preexisting conditions, kids on parents insurance until they’re 26 etc. Those things take a page or two at most. Which begs the question: what’s in those 2698 other pages?
    .
    Why is there a takeover of the student loan industry in the ACA? Could that bill not stand and be judged on it’s own merit?
    .
    If this law is so great why are waivers being granted left and right? Why does it have 10 years of tax increases and payment cuts to pay for 6 years of services? Why does it cut half a trillion from Medicaid? Why does it force states to increase taxes and tell them how to spend it?
    .
    Why is it that every time we turn around someone has found a new problem with this law?
    .
    The truth is, we’re finding out a bit more about this law every week or so and not much of it is good. The law is cumbersome, poorly put together and unpopular,it should be repealed one way or another and replaced with a law or set of laws that actually make sense and do what the authors claim they are supposed to do, that is actually lowering the cost of healthcare.
    .
    This law, in my personal opinion, is nothing more than a way to bleed the private insurance industry dry, slowly killing it off so that in a decade or two Progressives can ride to the rescue on the white horse of socialized medicine. All the while claiming that the free market failed, while actually knowing the truth: they strangled it on purpose just so they could claim to have a better solution.

  • americanwithabrain

    Ok, let’s clear up 2 things. George Washington’s mandate to buy a gun was made during a time of war. If Hitler was about to land troops on our shores and the government forcing me to buy health care insurance would turn the Nazis back I’d say OK, it’s a time of war and we must do what we can to defeat the Enemy. If you figure that makes me a hypocrite then we must agree to disagree. I can stand a bit of government imposition if my way of life or life itself is in imminent danger of being obliterated. I do not consider the alternative to Obamacare to be an issue on par with being taken over by Nazi Germany (or communist China, or any other enemy you care to bring up.

    As for the comparison of health care and Auto insurance: It’s a false comparison. The government cannot make my buy auto insurance. I can choose not to drive. If I choose to drive, I have to buy insurance. I also have to get a drivers license, tag, and buy gasoline and pay for car maintenance.

    The only way I can get out of the travesty of Obamacare is to die. So any further comparisons of being forced to buy health insurance with the requirement to have automobile insurance in order to drive is a false argument and I will no longer address or argue it. You might as well just chant Dick Cheney or George Bush’s name over and over, it’s only a leftist talking point.

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