In the Arena

Mental Illness

With far too many of my colleagues–and the usual array of politicians and fundraising interest groups–looking to make the shootings in Arizona into a left-right tussle over vitriol and extremism, it might be more profitable for some of us to look in a different direction. Yes, to be sure–and as I wrote a few weeks ago–the antics of lying, paranoid blowhards like Glenn Beck, who posit an America near collapse and in need of “patriots” to clean up the mess, certainly degrade the national debate. And I’ll be happy to return to that topic frequently in the coming weeks and months.

But there is one inescapable fact about this event: Jared Lee Loughner is mentally ill, most likely a paranoid schizophrenic. Nathan Thornburgh raises the immediate question: why are crazy people allowed to buy weapons in this country? (In Arizona, the situation is dramatically worse: Loughner could have gone to his local gun store and, without a permit, bought an m-16–a right that James Madison and Alexander Hamilton, no doubt, had in mind when crafting the 2nd Amendment.)

There’s another question, though: have we abdicated our responsibility, as a society, to protect ourselves from potentially harmful people like Loughner? We no longer lock up the mentally ill, which reflects two benign tendencies in society: we have become more humane and we have developed drugs that mitigate most forms of mental illness. My old mentor, Daniel Patrick Moynihan, used to lament the explosion of homeless people in New York–the vast majority of them either mentally ill or drug addicts–and he wondered whether, in the name of humanity, we had become inhumane in the treatment of those who couldn’t take care of themselves, even when medicated. A corollary worry was this: Had we exposed ourselves to more violent crimes by assuming the innocence of those, like Jared Loughner, who seemed capable of violence? (More on Time.com: See images of the mourners from the Tucson shooting)

It seems amazing that after Loughner’s delusional behavior at the community college–and perhaps his attempt to join the Army–he wasn’t required to submit himself for some sort of psychological screening. I’m sure that there will be all sorts of civil libertarian objections to this. There was a period, in the 1960s and 1970s, when mental illness was celebrated in films like “One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest” as a plausible response to an insane society. It was an entertaining literary conceit, with a germ of truth (do you think our consumption-addled over-bloviational  society is, um, completely sane?), but it ignored the reality of people like Loughner or the guy who shot up Virginia Tech a few years ago–or the near-weekly nutjobs who attacks schools and fast-food restaurants, take hostages at malls, or merely wander the streets babbling incoherently, threatening bystanders and scaring the bejeezus out of everyone. We have a responsibility to protect ourselves against these people; we have a responsibility to protect them from themselves.

I know that “Don’t Tread on Me” is the slogan of the moment for the libertarian right and it holds an honorable place in the American tradition. But there is another principle that is just as basic: Don’t tread on us. Gabrielle Giffords–a thoroughly delightful person, by the way–was severely trod upon last Saturday. So was a 9-year-old girl, a federal judge and 17 other victims. Our unwillingness to address this problem–one of the most basic that a society can face–speaks to a general abdication of responsibility that has become chronic in our national life.

Related Topics: Uncategorized
  • Latest on Swampland

    Pete Souza / The White House via Getty Images

    Political Picures of the Week, May 18-25

    TIME’s photo editors bring you the best pictures of the past week from the Beltway and beyond.

    Obama Administration Blocks Global Health Fund To Fight Disease In Developing NationsHuffPost Politics

    From left: AP; ABACAUSA

    The Phony War: Obama and Romney Are Debating Character, Not Policy

    More than five months from Election Day, the back-and-forth about Mitt Romney’s record at Bain already feels played out. Unfortunately, there’s good reason to expect the campaign continues in this vein indefinitely. Neither Barack Obama nor Mitt Romney are terribly interested in dwelling on policy platforms. Romney’s plan to slash spending and keep taxes low on the wealthy isn’t especially popular, at least not at any level of detail beyond a blithe promise to shrink the deficit. Meanwhile, Obama’s signature first-term achievements, like health care, the stimulus and Wall Street reform, are all unpopular or tricky to sell. (The Dodd-Frank bill is the most popular of these, but hyping it means offending wealthy donors.) So what we’re getting instead is a superficial duel about character–and, worse, one that’s based on the largely false premise that the better man can better “manage” the economy back to health.

  • textee

    Like 61% of the Democrat party, Jared “No! I won’t trust in God!” Loughner is a whack job 9/11 Truther conspiracy theorist who thinks that George W. Bush was behind the 9/11 attacks. http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gutbUc8KWEv3iMUewPN445D4uSYw?docId=c09a07a17e1b4aaa82815779cbf6f758

    I propose prohibiting any 9/11 Truther conspiracy theorist (aka a Democrat) from possessing any weapons.

  • walkingfunny

    Very thought provoking post JK.
    .
    And even before your ink is dry on the paper, the complete insanity and cheapening of discourse you refer to rears its head courtesy of textee …. sometimes statements like his are good for a good derisive laugh, but over time it is just really sickening.

  • pelhamite1

    Right on, Joe. To the right wing echo machine, I am willing to concede that the point that the shooter was not inherently politically motivated by right wing venom, if they will, in turn, conceded, that it is batsh!t crazy” to let a young man deemed too unstable to join the armed forces, to crazy, even, to attend community college to buy an automatic Glock capable of spraying 30 bullets over a crowd in a matter of seconds (please note, Second Amendment advocates, that it would have taken our yeoman farmer of 18th century America a half hour to shoot that many bullets). It would be well and good if we took the lethality out of our rhetoric, but at very least, in honor of the six victims, we should be taking the lethality out of the policies of our more radicalized state goevernments.

  • hippooath

    JK,
    .
    You make some excellent points

  • pelhamite1

    The contemptability of this remark is made immeasurably worse by the fact that the youngest of the victims, beautiful, bright young christina Taylor Green, was, in fact, born on 9/11/01.

    I think, at this point, there is a strong argument for banning “textee” from this site.

  • http://shortplaysaboutrealpeople.wordpress.com Michael Maiello

    This was also my reaction to the FBI sting operation that ended with the arrest of a would-be Jihadist who wanted to blow up a street full of shoppers in Portland. Why, instead of egging this guy on to the point where they gave him a fake bomb and remote control, didn’t they take him to get help?

    On the other hand, Joe… isn’t it too easy for the authorities to silence dissident voices this way? I don’t mean to sound paranoid (so put the butterfly nets away!) but is there anything more personal than an individual’s mental state? How do we tell the difference between a violent weirdo and a non-violent weirdo? Would, just to pick one crazy genius out of thin air, Jackson Pollock pass the test on a bad night?

  • 3xfire3

    If anyone really wants to know what motivated this sick young man you should read the following AP report.
    .
    If all you want to do is politicize the event than don’t bother the read it.

    .
    http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gutbUc8KWEv3iMUewPN445D4uSYw?docId=c09a07a17e1b4aaa82815779cbf6f758

  • lepidusxvi

    There is a fascinating hypocricy and parallel from both sides in this recent argument and the age old “violence in media” (games and movies) argument.
    .
    On one side, there are people saying that leaders on the right insighted the shootings in Arizona through political rhetoric. On the other side, we have people arguing that it was pure mental illness and even if that political rhetoric was the insighting factor, it isn’t to blame, as something would have set this guy off.
    .
    Yet these same two groups have the exact same argument in reverse when it comes to things like violent video games. One side says exposing people to violence causes them to perform it, then points to things like school shootings, while the other claims that crazy people are crazy people and you cannot blame the media they consume for what they do.
    .
    To me this just boils down to another glaring example of people scoring political points over intellectual honesty.
    .
    If you believe that external media stimulus (politics, entertainment or whatever) can cause people to perform these terrible acts… you should by all means say that and work to curtail these things.
    .
    If you don’t believe that is the case and that sometimes crazy people are crazy, and there is no value to removing or cutting back these external influences… own it.
    .
    It maddens me to see people take opposite positions on similar issues that make no rational sense just to score some free cable time.

  • http://shortplaysaboutrealpeople.wordpress.com Michael Maiello

    The way the AP puts it, Loughner’s question to Gifford three years ago: “What is government if words have no meaning?” may have been inappropriate for the forum but it would have been an entirely natural question to ask in a philosophy class.

    This is also why I’m skeptical about increasing our discretion to force people to undergo mental health treatment. Sometimes things sound crazy and sometimes they sound like Wittgenstein.

  • 3xfire3

    pelhamite1,
    .
    “I think, at this point, there is a strong argument for banning “textee” from this site.”
    .
    To be fair you would than also have to ban at least 6 or 7 extreme liberals who are every bit as bad as Textee with their hate all Conservative comments made daily on this site.
    .

  • 3xfire3

    walking,
    .
    Read i.2

  • allthingsinaname

    “But there is one inescapable fact about this event: Jared Lee Loughner is mentally ill, most likely a paranoid schizophrenic.”
    .

    That is just too easy Joe.

  • walkingfunny

    fire: what does your post in 1.2 do to change the fact that textees’ post is despicable and that he proves JK’s point about the cheapened level of discourse? Is it the fact that “liberals” also do the same? When did “they also do it” become a good reason to act like the scum of the earth? I condemn all such behavior, whatever the source, and so the the original article.

  • jsfox

    Textee doesn’t need to banned. He/she is a classic paranoid delusional that needs to seek help.

  • 3xfire3

    pelhamite1,
    .
    I’m a Conservative and I agree with all your comments.
    .
    The only thing I ask of you is to open your mind and stop the unreasonable belief that conservatives are evil. You and your peers daily make demonizing comments about Conservatives that are true only in your minds. Your perception and opinion doesn’t make something true.
    .
    Man up and argue the facts not opinions and agree to not agree if necessary. Stop all the Conservatives are evil BS.
    .
    I have made several posts over the last couple of days suggesting that we all tone down the rhetoric and be civil to each other. 90% of the Liberals on this site have continued to try and score political points because of this tragedy. That is wrong. They continue to bash Conservatives but seem to think that’s OK because in their minds they are right and Conservatives are wrong. That’s not reality. It is a closed mind.

  • http://elvisberg.wordpress.com Elvis Elvisberg

    There was a period, in the 1960s and 1970s, when mental illness was celebrated in films like “One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest” as a plausible response to an insane society. It was an entertaining literary conceit, with a germ of truth (do you think our consumption-addled over-bloviational society is, um, completely sane?),
    -
    Did that movement have much political clout? It’s one thing to write a popular book and movie, but I just don’t know how much impact that view had on decisionmakers.

  • http://shortplaysaboutrealpeople.wordpress.com Michael Maiello

    Seems like you can logically believe it all, though.

    Yes, violent media, imagery and language can incite violence, especially in people who have a looser than normal grasp on reality.

    But no, I wouldn’t work to “curtail that” because I don’t think these risks outweigh the rights of people to basically express themselves how they see fit.

    Ultimately, I don’t believe that people are controllable so even if we did everything we could to not set people off, some would still be set off by something or other.

  • sacredh

    Loughner is mentally ill. I don’t think anyone is denying that. What set him off is a bit of a red herring though. Anything can set off a mentally ill person. It could be right wing commentary, it could be what he perceived as left wing attempts to control his mind, it could be that his favorite video game broke. We don’t know. I think he’s just as likely to blame something that didn’t set him off because it might generate more publicity for himself.

    If I ever lost it, I’d probably blame it on something/somebody I don’t like because it would be like killing two birds with one stone. I could run over a large rock with my tractor and seriously damage it. Somebody could steal my wallet and max out my credit card. Somebody could hit my car in a parking lot and leave without exchanging insurance info. If that all happened in one day I could snap (not really but I’m just making a point). If that made me go postal I might consider blaming it on Palin’s “Real American” comment. THAT could make headlines and set off a national debate. Bending my tractor blade wouldn’t.
    .
    Even if Jared says one thing, there’s a good possibility that he won’t be telling the truth.

  • apr2563

    Joe, think back to the days of Lyndon Johnson. You could walk the streets of any city and see few homeless. Society was taking care of them to the best of its ability.
    .
    Then sometime later came the Nixon and Reagan years. It was decided that housing the mentally ill and deficient was too costly. Intstitutions were emptied out with no safety net in place. The streets still are home to those cast offs and their predecessors.
    .
    My brother in law lived in an institution for the mentally disabled. His parents campaigned and worked with the state to make remarkable humanitary improvements at the institution. It became a home and safe place. When he was offered the ability to leave, John came to my husband, his brother, and asked to be released. We convinced his mother to let him leave believing there were going to by homes for them. There were none. John was adrift in a society that repelled from him. His mother did all she could to help him but society did not.

  • apr2563

    Joe, we also need to protect ourselves against a media that romanticizes those who protest in rage and daily assault us with a hate message. The Limbaughs and Becks are not amusing, no more then the McCarthys and Birchers. They do have a much bigger megaphone.
    When you are doing your punditry, please make note of the vitriol that is viewed as news/entertainment.
    .
    http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/
    .
    “Actions can’t be placed on anyone’s doorstep. But if Governor Palin doesn’t want to be criticized then she should continue her commentary but dial back the anger,” – John Weaver, longtime Republican operative.

    There is a distinction between guilt and regret. Sarah Palin is not responsible for this latest excrescence of violence. But if Sarah Palin does not regret the fact that she put a gun-sight cross-hair on a public figure who was subsequently shot in the head, then she is telling us something important about her moral character.

    Last summer, Ms. Giffords’s Republican opponent, Jesse Kelly, had a campaign event in which voters were invited to “shoot a fully automatic M-16” with him to symbolize his assault on her campaign.

    Who is mentally ill?

  • newfreedomblog

    Exactly what my friend 3xfire3 said.

  • textee

    Pima County so-called “sheriff” Dumbnik (the latest darling of the leftist Washington/New York American press corps) is every bit as much a whack job, insane leftist as Jared “No! I won’t trust in God!” Loughner.

    Let’s hope it’s not legal for “sheriff” Dumbnik to carry a weapon.

  • apr2563

    http://thinkprogress.org/2010/02/26/franks-slavery-abortion/
    .
    Far more of the African-American community is being devastated by the policies of today than were being devastated by policies of slavery.
    .
    A Republican member of the House of Representatives accused President Barack Obama of being “an enemy of humanity” during a conservative values forum this past weekend.
    .
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/29/gop-rep-trent-franks-call_n_302713.html
    .
    In a speech Saturday before the How to Take Back America conference, Rep. Trent Franks (R-AZ) made comments that went far beyond the limits of traditional White House criticism. At one point, Franks demanded that Obama release his birth certificate to prove his constitutional eligibility to hold office. The bluntest charge, however, centered on the president’s position on abortion, which the congressman derided as “insane” and godless.
    .
    Joe, Franks was all over the Sunday talk shows. Not one of the lofty pundits called him out for his inflammatory speech.
    .
    Who is mentally ill?

  • nflfoghorn

    Let’s not ban him – let’s continue to point out the many fallacies of his irrational arguments.
    .
    3X, if we were to ban “libruls” as well, what does that prove – that “conservatives” like you are somehow superior? That you’re “less wrong”?
    .
    I’ve never heard/read liberals, for what it’s worth, say that they’re superior to people like you.

  • doddeb

    Joe:
    Thanks for bringing up the mental health issue in a thoughtful way. I’m not sure what the answers are, either. But it seems like we have gone too far in the direction of the individual’s right to self determination under some circumstances.
    .
    And, I’m not just talking about locking folks up in mental institutions against their will. It is more subtle than that. I have a brother who is mentally ill. From time to time, we have tried to get him help from our county facilities, for medication, counseling, housing, etc. I would take time off work, attend the first x number of appointments with him (I have some flexibility with leave from work, but not total). After that he would stop going, stop taking the medication, fall back into homelessness or self destructive behavior. I tried in vain to get the county personnel to call me if he missed an appointment; no dice. Because under the law, he has the right to refuse treatment. He has the right to not take medication. I have no right to ask for help in keeping him in the system.
    .
    So, inevitably, if he is to stay off the streets, it’s entirely on his family to make sure that happens…financially and otherwise. Even signing up for Medicaid or foodstamps requires regular appointments to be met.
    .
    I’m not trying to make my brother a zombie. I’m not trying to lock him away. I love him and just want him to be well enough to lead a life with dignity. And the only way we’ve found to do that, is pay for everything ourselves. Thank God we have the resources (sort of). It is not hard for me to envision what would happen to him if we did not.
    .
    Others have spoken about the need to take our political discourse down several notches, and I agree with them. But I appreciate you bringing up this topic because it too is a discussion that we badly need to have in this country.

  • earljr1

    First and foremost, Gabrielle Giffords is a bona fide American hero. She put herself out there in much the same fashion our troops do every day in Afghanistan and Iraq. She personifies democracy in its greatest form, being part of the people and responsive to their needs. God bless you, Gabrielle, our thoughts and prayers are always with you. May God, in all of his grace, ease your suffering and comfort your grieving family. The perpetrator of this violence was undoubtedly, mentally ill and too often in our society, this illness goes untreated. They are too often shuffled to the side, given ineffectual treatment and their illness continues to plague them. When and if, we do get around to fixing health care reform, the platform for treating mental illness should be greatly expanded. It is woefully inadequate as it presently stands. We have done a better job of treating drug addiction than we have in treating the astonishingly high number of patients who present with obvious mental health issues and this needs to change. What happened to Gabrielle Giffords is a classic example of why this is so urgently needed.

  • http://vibratingbhavana.wordpress.com dcart6

    We lock up the mentally ill. We just wait until they’ve hurt someone first. We’re penny wise and pound foolish. It’s not compassion that keeps the mentally ill living on the streets so long as they don’t physically harm anyone. It’s the simple fact that we’re too cheap to pay for their treatment and housing. When they hurt someone, we want to put all of the blame on them and lock them up for years in conditions that have been known to drive normal people insane.

    Even now, there is a rush by the people who have been promoting hate and violence to say that this guy is a “lone nut” and that the purveyors of this delegitimization of the left in this country couldn’t possibly be expected to restrain their rhetoric. Politics is a rough and tumble business. You can go back to the founding of this country and find myriad examples of vicious rhetoric between foes. What we’ve seen since Bill Clinton was elected in 1992 is different. The very notion that a Democrat could be a legitimate holder of that office was put into question, then dismissed. Over the last decade, we’ve seen that trickle down to offices at every level. Liberals aren’t opponents. They’re enemies. They want to set up “death panels” and force you grandparents into extermination camps. They want to sell the country out to Osama bin Laden and help set up sharia law. They want to protect pedophiles who will rape your children. They must be stopped. How do you stop someone so evil? As Sarah Palin said, you put them in your sights.

  • 3xfire3

    walking,
    .
    “what does your post in 1.2 do to change the fact that textees’ post is despicable and that he proves JK’s point about the cheapened level of discourse?”
    .
    Textee is reacting to over 100 despicable comments made by Liberals on this site blaming Conservatives for this tragedy. Why you Liberals don’t understand something so simple I don’t know.
    .
    Stop trying to blame conservatives for this horrific event. The young man was mentally ill.

  • hippooath

    I completey agree.

  • nflfoghorn

    Nice post. Joe’s being a good doobee today :)
    .
    This is my first post RE the shooting…as far as I know no one’s really focused on what the Pima Co AZ sheriff has said regarding inflammatory political rhetoric. Although everyone’s pointed to the hatred ‘on both sides,’ listen to today’s talk radio and tell me who dominates it. Who’s got the larger audience? The most ‘talkers’? The most influence among those who aren’t well-educated? Then tell me whether a) his point isn’t reasonable and b) he doesn’t counter-weigh Joe Arapaio.

  • allthingsinaname

    “Even now, there is a rush by the people who have been promoting hate and violence to say that this guy is a “lone nut” and that the purveyors of this delegitimization of the left in this country couldn’t possibly be expected to restrain their rhetoric”
    .
    Yea we do the same to 12 year olds that we treat as adults and lock up for life.
    .
    Hey but we can act the way we want.

  • apr2563

    We do lock up the mentally ill. We put them in jail. Then we release them back to a society that rejects them.
    My daughter was one of those “street people” that had no place to go to address her addictions and mental problems. As a family, we did everything we could but could not find a reliable support system or way to reach her.
    Linda was in and out of jail and received no meaningful assistance for her problems. It was always back to the street.
    That is where she met her death. Shot to death by a man who preyed on the helpless.
    He of course was mentally ill. He was a veteran and reservist with high honors. Yet he killed more than a dozen women.
    Mental illness is populated by victims and victimizers. We must take note of this and take responsibility.

  • lepidusxvi

    …and you’re illustrating everyone’s point for them quite nicely. You actually just compared a man who shot 12 people to a guy who you politically disagreed with.
    .
    Perspective, seek it.

  • jsfox

    What I find most interesting about the Sheriff’s remarks is that he did not mention any political group or organization. Yet who has been the loudest in condemning and questioning his remarks? Jon Kyle, Megan Kelly and some others on the right.

    When you go on the defense when you were not called out says more about your guilty conscience than what was actually said.

  • nflfoghorn

    I remember you telling us some time back about your daughter’s fate. We salute your resolve.
    .
    The parents of Saturday’s sick shooter…the policeman father of the Nebraska student who stole his dad’s gun and ruined two families…I can only imagine that parents and families can only do so much to try and rescue these souls. They are not to be considered “derelict” out of hand, like they didn’t try to prevent such behavior.
    Thank you again for sharing.

  • nflfoghorn

    Or more bluntly, marbles – get some.

  • nflfoghorn

    Agreed, Earl.

  • newfreedomblog

    Wow, Mr Klein. So many things you are either clueless about, you are out and out lying again, or you are again distorting the truth.
    .
    First off Joe, you and some of the other ill-informed folks on this site may be interested in this timeline of the de-institutionalization of our mental health hospitals.
    .
    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/nash/timeline/timeline2.html
    .
    As you can see clearly, the move to remove folks from institutions began in the early 1960′s. Who was President at that time, april2563 again?
    .
    Not with standing however, many institutions were human warehouses, and people who did not need to be institutionalized were in fact held against their will for such maladies as epilepsy. This was wrong.
    .
    In the 1990′s we saw more advocacy for mental health rights take place. Advocates for the mentally ill even went so far as to have laws passed which a severely mentally ill person could stop taking his or her medications despite the proven knowledge they would quickly de-compensate and become psychotic. This set up a revolving door to community hospitals who provided a mental health inpatient hospital unit.
    .
    There are so many problems with our mental health system today it is almost impossible to list them all here. But, the fact we need to re-look at our mental health programs is glaring as well as necessary at this time.
    .
    I am an advocate to allow as many people as possible who have a mental health illness to live within our communities as possible. I am certain that this is the best treatment program or plan of care that could be set up with their input. I also believe there are a certain number of individuals who are in our mental health community programs who fall through the “cracks” due to the laws passed in the past 30 years and should be institutionalized or provided with a much higher level of care than any community can provide cost effectively.
    .
    To single out anyone, Glenn Beck, Sarah Palin or anyone else as a reason for Saturday’s murders is not only delusional and psychotic in and of itself, it is also a flat out lie if you have not done any research. I have worked with many schizophrenics over the past 30 years to know that watching a Charmin commercial on TV could set them off if they are not on their medications. The failure in Lougher’s case was our system, period. Nothing more, nothing less.
    .
    You will not solve this by banning guns either. They can and will make a pipe bomb and take out even more than the 20 or so who were injured this past Saturday. All you do is change the method of their madness, not treat the real problem which is the madness itself.
    .

    “I know that “Don’t Tread on Me” is the slogan of the moment for the libertarian right”

    .
    For this little beauty. I just want to inform you there are just as many “libertarian left” as their are “libertarian right”. I know you know this, why do you label things like this? Just say libertarian and be done with it.
    .
    And vitriol? I can pull as much negative, potentially lethal and harmful vitriol from the left as you can from the right. But, this is America. We have over 230 years of freedom of speech behind us. Rather than generalizations, pull out the specific thing someone has said you find offensive. Put their names up in lights with their statements for all to see.
    .
    The problems we have in our society today is not from what is said. The problems are not from not being politically correct or not. The real problem and root cause is our declining families, morals, values and ideals. Period. We are a society in decay.

  • michaelfury

    Your johnny-on-the-spot smear smacks of desperation.

    That the ugly truth of what has been done to the Republic will further destabilize unstable individuals is a given, but this argument cannot suffice as an excuse to perpetuate the murderous fraud ad infinitum.

    Your list of “whack jobs” needs revision:

    http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2010/11/16/critical-mass/

    http://www.ae911truth.org/

    http://firefightersfor911truth.org/

  • apr2563

    And who saw to it that funding for support systems were not funded properly on the state and federal levels.
    I think we all have responsibility here.

  • nflfoghorn

    I see your “outrage” and raise you this:
    .
    If I sneezed ten years ago, no one outside of my immediate vicinity hears about it.
    Today, if tweeted that I sneezed the whole world knows.
    You can’t say what you want on the ‘net and not expect everyone to know that you’re kidding!

  • nflfoghorn

    The “why’s everybody’s always pickin’ on us” defense, eh?

  • http://dorfage.wordpress.com wanderingspector

    Joe Klein,

    I post here knowing that I place my current employment at risk. You see I would be technically classified as mentally ill although I am on medication for my condition. However, I am not alone in my situation and wish to speak up for myself and others like me.

    I suffer from severe, chronic, organic depression. A hideous condition that robbed me of over 40 years of normal, productive life. I am currently on an antidepressant that allows me to function normally. Unfortunately, my condition cannot be “cured” only held in abeyance by medication. I can live with this situation, however, because the counselor who saw me through the period of adjustment to this medication has told me that I am now “more sane than most people that you will meet on the street”.

    I bring this matter up here, because during the past 8 years since I have been receiving treatment for my condition I have been fired from more than one position because people would rather not have to worry about a a colleague who is technically “mentally ill”. I have a PhD and graduated with distinction for the school I attended, but if coworkers find that I am on antidepressants for chronic, organic depression, attitudes change.

    What happened on Sunday was a terrible tragedy, and it shocked me as deeply as anyone, as my wife can attest, but the solutions are elusive, and complex.I have no desire to own a gun, but should such a permit be forbidden me because of my condition? Should I be required to disclose my condition so that people can protect themselves? Should I carry papers or a wear dog-tags that identify me as someone with a chronic mental condition?

    I ask these questions because I want to know how I fit into a society that wants to protect itself against those with “mental illness” I have no history of violence either before or after treatment, but then neither did Jared Loughner or Seung-Hui Cho. Should members of society like me be singled out and scrutinized because of their actions. It is a real question for me and others and we watch this debate with great concern.

  • ohiolibb

    Every single day there are 10-20 examples of Liberal hate towards Conservatives posted here on the swamp
    -
    Then it should be very easy to for you to find a few example of “hate” for me. Put up or shut up, whiner.

  • harryandmarkmarks

    If I told you how easy it is to get a job in this recession, you wouldn’t believe me. But the truth is more employers are going online to find people just like you and me who are ready to work at a good job. The only thing that makes sense is to stop wasting time filling out a dozen applications and going from one boring low paying job to another. I found this site that pretty much matches you up with your dream job that is available. I have found it very helpful. Go to GetMeJobNow.com

  • ohiolibb

    Oh, wait, I’ll bet saying “put up or shut up” counts as hate. Right?

  • nflfoghorn

    Sounds a lot like the “some of my best friends are ____” argument. If you gotta go there to justify yourself, then you’re guilty by admission.

  • apr2563

    wandering: Thank you for your perspective. Your remarks and questions should be noted and respected.

  • http://erieangel.wordpress.com erieangel

    Excellent post, JK, thank you. However, did you have to lump those who “wander the streets babbling incoherently” with the criminally insane? That is the way to go about things, Joe, but it also helps to reinforce the stereotype that people with mental illness should be feared.
    .
    I was standing at a bus stop one day a few years ago when a mentally ill person walked by. She was arguing, gesturing, etc. The people around the bus stop moved away, some snickered, others murmured stuff like “crazy idiot”. One woman even said she’s walking up a block because she didn’t want to be around “anybody like that, you never know when they’ll turn on you”. It all just made me sick. Not the poor woman’s obvious episodic behavior, but the attitude of those on the street who witnessed it.
    .
    Yes, people become afraid of those with mental illness, we do tend to, at times, “scare the bejeezus” out of people. But don’t you think that maybe, just maybe, by limiting the discussion in America about mental health issue to only when we have a tragedy such as Saturday’s the media bares a lot of responsibility in perpetrating a wrong stereotype? As I’ve said several times since Saturday, those with mental illness are less likely to commit a violent crime than people of the general population. But somehow, all of that is lost in the fog.

  • RichinNJ

    All of what Joe Kleins writes is true, but right-thinking people don’t sign political documents that have targets drawn on members of Congress precisely because mentally ill people might misinterpret the intent of the document.

    Consequently, although Palin is not directly responsible for what happened, what she did was reckless, i.e., a conscious disregard of a known risk.

    She should be shunned.

  • stuartzechman

    textee wrote:

    I propose prohibiting any 9/11 Truther conspiracy theorist (aka a Democrat) from possessing any weapons.

    There is no strong argument for banning textee from this site.
    .
    If textee is actually banned from this site based on something like this comment, then I will protest such a decision by leaving as well –and will attempt to persuade as many folks as I can to join me in that protest. To the extent that I can make the case to the pro writers here to weigh in to reverse that decision, I will.
    .
    I have put a fair amount of effort over the past three years into contributing here –as opposed to other mainstream political blogs– but, as much as it will pain me, there is no other effective way that I know of for registering such significant disapproval.
    .
    Political speech is the public (not private, obviously) purpose of this site. Open, honest and self-corrective discourse between journalists and the news-consuming public is what the one-way medium of television will not provide, therefore this public purpose is important.
    .
    Whether that speech is contemptible –or even false– or not has nothing to do with the value of making it available for others to read and evaluate for themselves.
    .
    Movement liberals know that the best remedy for political speech is more political speech, not less. It’s both short-sighted and un-American to call for the banning of speakers from public forums, whether privately owned or not.
    .
    One day in the near future, movement rightists will descend on this forum in droves to urge its moderators to ban a participant for a similar “offense.” At that time, it will be a similar scenario, in which feelings are raw about some other national tragedy. Someone who isn’t a rightist will have said something offensive and misleading, and the resulting outrage will be both manufactured and genuine. When that happens, if some here succeed in having persuaded those in charge to ban textee for this comment, the moderators will point to this instance, and say something like “it’s only fair that we treat both sides equally in these sorts of decisions, and ban both right and left for offense,” and the cycle will be perpetuated.
    .
    Then political discussion here will mirror that of the television networks, in which participants seek to game the moderators via manufactured outrage into restricting these privately-owned, yet obviously public forums to that which “doesn’t cross the line,” and the Swampland political blog will be worthless, except as a vehicle for political operatives posing as ordinary people, and the pathologically antagonistic. Eventually, we’ll be back to anti-war voices being banned by private networks during wartime, as happened less than ten years ago, except this time it will be online, instead of merely in national print and on network television. That would kill all the efforts the reality-based community has painstakingly made to influence the development of web-based news and information discourse for the better.
    .
    Lobbying the TIME.com employees responsible for this site to become more involved in arbitrating the political speech of its participants, and banning from speaking (and being heard) those who we find offensive and wrong is the opposite of a liberal reaction –and is, itself, contemptible.

  • allthingsinaname

    I have read a number of posts the last few days. What I can conclude is that there are a number of people who apparently misinterpret the intent of the words and visuals presented by Beck, Palin, and the TEA Party Leaders.
    .
    What then are the mentally ill to conclude?

  • http://grapemusing.blogspot.com/ grape_crush

    (In Arizona, the situation is dramatically worse: Loughner could have gone to his local gun store and, without a permit, bought an m-16…)

    You don’t even have to go that far, Joe.Turns out that the extended magazine for the weapon used in the Tucson shootings would have been illegal to buy new or even manufacture under the assault weapons ban that expired in 2004. Fewer bullets, and maybe that nine-year-old girl would still be alive.

    With far too many of my colleagues…looking to make the shootings…

    Not only that far too many of your colleagues are avoiding taking any sort of responsibility for promoting said “tussle[s] over vitriol and extremism.”

    One of the worst examples so far was an exchange on Today between Brokaw and Lauer where Brokaw blamed the heated environment on the ‘vitriol and extremism’ expressed on the internet. There is a truth in that, but it diverts attention from the straight media’s implicit (or even explicit) sanction of fringe activity. Remember the pastor of that very small congregation in Florida who garnered a week’s worth of attention for his ‘Burn a Koran Day’? How much ink was used writing about “The War on Christmas?” And so on.

    You’ve (general you, not singling out Joe specifically) abdicated your responsibility to call balls and strikes in the name of some warped sense of journalistic objectivity. In addition, you’ve chosen to highlight and subsequently mainstream some of the most extreme examples of political/ideological activity/outrage in order to attract eyeballs and raise ad revenues.

    Your colleagues need to get together and decide what can be done to reconcile your ethical obligations as a member of the Fourth Estate against the need to hit higher profit targets.

    the antics of lying, paranoid blowhards like Glenn Beck…

    Who, like Palin’s handlers, at least have enough on the ball to perform some CYA.

    We no longer lock up the mentally ill, which reflects two benign tendencies in society..

    And two not-so-benign: privatization of formerly public services and an unwillingness to pay for care and help for those suffering from mental illness.

  • pelhamite1

    I do not consider all Conservatives to be evil. As I have noted elsewhaere, I think there is a time and place for give and take with true conservative sensibilities. I have admired some of the acts and policies of Republicans including Bush 41 and even Bush 43 (his calling out of international slave trafficking, his response to the financial collapse in the last year of his Presidency). Down thread, there is a reasonably good discussion about mental health policy in the US today, which is certainly an area where both the right and the left have erred egregiously and in which both sides should listen to and learn from one another.

    .

    The enemy is not the Republican Party per se but rather the venomous, vitriolic strain that has reared its ugly head in recent years. There is a big difference, in my book, between sincere but misguided leaders such as Nikki Haley, Sam Brownback, Bobby Jindal and Pat Toomey, and the more cynical, manipulative figures such as Dick Armey, Karl Rove, Jim DeMint, Rush, Beck and Fox News bimbos. This second strain is not not even conservative, as I have understood the term, but nihilist, animated by an anger that seems to block out rational thought as well as concern for the well being of the nation. It is the mentality that puts “crosshairs” on the offices of Democratic opponents and uses not partisan but rather “eliminationist” rheotric that denies the legitimacy of the political opposition. There is an important difference between the goading to which Rusty subjects this blog – often annoying yet nevertheless legitimate, and appropriately challenging – and the wild eyed invective hurled out of a rage that has no boundaries.

  • newfreedomblog

    Very well stated, wanderingspector. I would also add, and request Joe Klein, when he takes your 2nd amendment right away, what other rights would he also take away from you next?
    .
    Perhaps Joe Klein won’t like what you have written here to challenge him, and he would like to see your 1st Amendment right taken away as well as he easily want to rid you of your 2nd Amendment rights.
    .
    I think wandering and the rest of us deserve your answer Mr Klein, will we get it?

  • nflfoghorn

    It’s too bad that somebody has elevated Miss Prissy, an anti-intellectual (anti-intelligent?) quitter, to such a degree that some sicko actually misinterprets what she says, kinda like Osama (where radical zealots actually carry out what he’s said).

  • shepherdwong

    Lobbying the TIME.com employees responsible for this site to become more involved in arbitrating the political speech of its participants, and banning from speaking (and being heard) those who we find offensive and wrong is the opposite of a liberal reaction –and is, itself, contemptible.
    .
    I agree with the thrust of your post, Stuart. We don’t need to limit political speech or ban people for what they say. I appreciate the political speech by rightists on this site because it generally tends to prove the points of those on the left, particularly about “journalists” constant attempts to find false equivalency between liberals and “conservatives,” and generally tends to condemn the rightist viewpoint.
    .
    But we do desperately need more “arbitrating the political speech of its participants,” by authority figures in the mainstream press. Specifically, the lies of the right need to be “arbitrated” for what they are. That’s part of their job and their general abdication of that responsibility explains much of of the dishonesty and demonization that afflicts our public discourse. Public shaming, in a civil society, is the appropriate device for policing political speech that is beyond the pale.

  • kaytmurphy

    Any person who believes it is acceptable to use sayings such as “lock and load” or putting gunsight crosshairs across a state with individuals names listed below, are in as much of a need for a mental health evaluation as this sick individual who pulled the trigger (using sick to mean having an illness, not in any derogatory way) People need to speak up and call this call for violence for just that, a call for violence. After all the state Sarah Palin govererned has the most per capitor gun deaths of any state, so I do not believe for a moment she did not understand the risk of horrible consequences her words could cause.

  • http://erieangel.wordpress.com erieangel

    @apr, I am so sorry for what your daughter went through. And so sorry for your loss. It is a disgrace that as a nation we are unable, and many unwilling, to care for those unable to care for themselves.

  • http://erieangel.wordpress.com erieangel

    http://www.nmha.org/index.cfm?objectID=70BCF6D2-1372-4D20-C86033767CB57A23
    .
    .
    A statement put out by Mental Health America.

  • jgsr

    There are more guns, registered and unregistered through sales receipts, than there are cars in America.
    Compare the number of injuries and deaths caused by irresponsible driving to injuries and deaths resulting from guns usage.
    Why do we let mentally ill purchase guns?
    We don’t do that intentionally.
    Could there possibly be operating/managing employees in a gun store that would knowingly break a law?
    Could there possibly be pedophiles in the Priesthood of the Catholic Church?
    There exists no occupation on earth that is 100%-criminal-behavior resistant.
    There exists no guaranteed safe place.
    There exists no guaranteed safe people to be around, as 70% of murders are committed by a person known to the victim.
    If this mentally deranged person had not been able to legally buy a handgun in a licensed gun store, he would have easily been able to buy an unregistered gun on the street in Arizona or any of the other 49 States..
    This from-the-streets “illegal” gun would just have cost more money.
    What is the likelihood that this lunatic would have refrained from his senseless act because he could not obtain a “legal” handgun?
    I have the answer………….ZERO.
    Also, anyone willing to injure or kill as many victims as possible, wouldn’t have refrained from breaking into a private home and stealing a weapon to use.
    Planning to murder…but wouldn’t break the law by stealing from a private residence?
    Why do we let the mentally ill drive automobiles?
    Automobiles cause an exponentially larger amount of injuries and death than do guns.
    Ban cars?

  • liberalmeltdown

    3x, banning people? I strongly disagree. And that’s the point isn’t it. People post here; some say things that you don’t like, and you get to post your opinion. Is it your idea that we no longer have disagreements? We have to conform to a PC restriction because mentally ill people might read it and become upset.
    .
    Then we ban everything that contains violence: movies, TV shows, books, video games.
    .
    Otherwise your argument and others here is hypocritical, and you are falling into the left’s attempt to control the discussion. First guns are bad (it’s not the people that misuse them of course) then it’s anything that refers to guns: cross hairs, trigger, reload, etc. You get the point? Oh no…

  • http://erieangel.wordpress.com erieangel

    Grape, excellent post. I almost disagreed with your last sentence, but in reality though the mental health system is still largely referred to as a “public” service, it is private, for profit insurance companies that decide the regulations and pay for the service. At one time, each county recieved a yearly budget, for my city it was $80M when I served on the county board that paid for MH/MR services. Now that total is about $10M with a single private insurance company getting the remainder. This does not lower the cost for the state or the counties, but rather reduces the amount of care available. It was the same when medicaid went “private”. The insurance companies convinced Congress they could provide medicaid cheaper than the government does, and they did for a year or two, since the cost has only sky rocketed. Now those same companies are after medicare, does anybody think the outcome will be any different?

  • bobcn1

    Why do we allow people to bring weapons to public political events? We have repeatedly seen people appear at these events wearing ‘watering the tree of liberty’ t-shirts and brandishing weapons. Why do we allow our safety to be jeopardized by people who are being intentionally threatening?

    To those who claim that the 2nd amendment gives them the right to intimidate others with their weapons, I would like to point out that the 1st amendment guarantees us the right to ‘peaceably assemble’. If you want to wear a gun — fine go ahead. Wear your gun at home. Just not around me at a rally or town hall meeting.

    I recently served on jury duty. I wasn’t allowed to bring weapons into the courtroom. The courts recognize that there are places where the carrying of guns is inappropriate.

  • http://dorfage.wordpress.com wanderingspector

    >
    >> I think wandering and the rest of us deserve your
    >> answer Mr Klein, will we get it?
    >
    I just want to make it clear: I have the greatest respect for Joe I Klein. I am always very interested in his comments because I find him to be an honest, thoughtful man. It is why I ask my questions here; if he answers my concerns, I know that it will be only after serious, and compassionate consideration of all facets of what is unquestionably a complex and difficult situation.

  • bobcn1

    Ban cars?
    .
    We pass laws and enforce regulations in an effort to reduce the deaths and injuries attributable to cars. It’s reasonable for us to make similar efforts with guns. Your argument is silly.

  • http://catm99.wordpress.com catm99

    Just a thought since most uninformed journalists don’t know this, but you cannot in fact just walk into a local gun store and buy an M-16 without a permit. That would be illegal. The M-16 is by all definitions an assault rifle being that is capable of selective fire (semi-auto, burst/full auto depending on the model). You can legally buy a rifle from gun stores in most states like the civilian M-16 version the AR-15. The AR-15 however does not fit into the assault rifle definition being that it is not selective fire capable since it is semi automatic only.
    In order to purchase an assault rifle you do in fact have to have a permit which is addressed in the National Firearms Act.
    Again just a thought for anyone not knowledgeable on the subject.

  • ukgirl17

    I am truly shocked by the ignorance of Joe Klein. He has never met Jared Loughner and is in no way qualified to diagnose him with paranoid schizophrenia. Even if Loughner does have a mental illness – which we don’t know – this is not automatically an explanation for his actions.

    Many of you would seemingly benefit from reading the following article and perhaps doing a little research into the links between mental health conditions and violence: http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/the-lay-scientist/2011/jan/10/jared-lee-loughner?INTCMP=SRCH

    It’s articles like Joe Klein’s that feed the stigma and discrimination surrounding mental health conditions. Ver irresponsible journalism.

  • jgsr

    bobcn1

    “……….Your argument is silly”

    Of course that is a silly suggestion.

    “Silly” was the entire point.

    This entire event is about the irresponsibility certainly, and/or possibly mentally illness combined, of the actions of a single individual.

    You don’t blame an inanimate object such as a car or a gun.

    You blame the irresponsible user.

    DWI arrests are not caused by the car drinking alcohol………

  • http://grapemusing.blogspot.com/ grape_crush

    I almost disagreed with your last sentence, but in reality though the mental health system…
    .
    My thought was with a family member who worked for a couple of decades in Michigan’s state-run system and their take on the whole thing…In the 80′s John Engler made the seemingly benign step* of closing many of the state-run mental health facilities (which are not paradises, by any means) and moving those patients into smaller, privately-run ‘homes’.** For some patients, this was a good thing in that while they had problems, residing in an institution wasn’t part of the help they needed.

    For other patients, the quality of care decreased and the environment wasn’t restrictive enough, as some (such as the drug cases) picked up their old habits and regressed, which these homes weren’t equipped or staffed to handle. So instead of treatment, these patients were caught in a revolving door opening on state facilities, group homes, halfway houses, etc. My family member spoke often about patients that were released to a group home only to come back (to one of the few state-run facilities still open) when their behavior wasn’t manageable…and then back out again once they were cleaned up and put back on their meds. As the cuts deepened, there was more and more pressure to move patients out of the state facilities, which only made (makes) the situation worse.

    *Rumor had it that one of his buddies/campaign contributors owned a lot of these private homes.
    **It’s cheaper to pay a worker $8/hour for caregiving than a licensed and/or trained professional $17/hr plus bennies. And to add to your comment on the reduction of mental health funding, [guess which states have made the deepest cuts]?

  • http://twndomn.wordpress.com twndomn

    Palin and Tea dbags are Terrorists hiding behind the First Amendment.

    They are Irresponsible Hypocrites, now running on Denial.

    Window-dress however you want, the matter is as Simple as That.

  • 3xfire3

    nfl,
    .
    3X, if we were to ban “liberals” as well, what does that prove – that “conservatives” like you are somehow superior? That you’re “less wrong”?
    .
    I’ve never heard/read liberals, for what it’s worth, say that they’re superior to people like you.
    .
    My post was in reaction to the ban Textee comments that were made by pelhamite and walkingfunny.
    .
    I don’t believe anyone should be ban. I am in total agreement with Stuarts comments.
    .
    Many Liberals are constantly commenting about how they can drive conservatives off swampland and encouraging other liberals to follow their lead. Is this the free speech you’re talking about?
    .
    Nfl, No I do not think I am better than anyone else on this green earth. When I comment I am stating my personal views, perceptions and opinions. That does not mean I think I am better than anyone else.
    .
    Yes there are areas of discussion that I believe my personal education and long life experiences do give me some knowledge and expertise that some others on this site do not have. That’s no different than someone with knowledge about computer system architecture feeling that they have a particular expertise. It’s the real world.
    .
    Erieangle has substantial expertise and experience related to mental health yet some commenters with little knowledge of mental health make multiple comments that he/she is wrong in their analysis.
    .
    All of us have areas of expertise. That does not mean any of us think we are better than anyone else.

  • newfreedomblog

    I am not questioning a thing you are saying, but you do know you are on TIME.com’s swampland, right?

  • newfreedomblog

    Could you link to any of the Tea Party comments from official Tea Party leaders? I would be interested in reading them.

  • nflfoghorn
  • 3xfire3

    And swamp liberals think textee is nuts. You take the prize.

  • 3xfire3

    He’s right.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    I am going to guess being omnipresent in most posts my not responding to textee was noticed.
    .
    Why?
    .
    Textee isn’t making sense.
    .
    I have no hope for him. With anybody else (you all know who I debate and even getting to pissing contests with) I consider a troll, I wish them to remove ad hominem attacks and to debate honestly without making claims without links or evidence, cherry picking from articles or using blatantly biased sources.
    .
    Remove the attacks and Textee doesn’t have a post. It would be a blank space.
    .
    He is, also, incoherent.
    .
    I do believe that it is very, very possible that textee is a very mentally ill person.
    .
    Funniest comeback to textee from Kevin “I could have my cat walk across my keyboard and it would make more sense than that.”
    .
    It’s true!

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “The only thing I ask of you is to open your mind and stop the unreasonable belief that conservatives are evil.”
    .
    You keep on saying over and over how persecuted you are by so many people, yet, you have had more than your share of first strike ad hominem attacks against liberals and moderates.
    .
    As one of those who debate you very often, look for the words “evil”, “homophobic”, “Sexist”, “racist” or “Xenophobic” and you will not find them coming from me in reference to you.
    .
    ” You and your peers daily make demonizing comments about Conservatives that are true only in your minds. ”
    .
    Holding the Bush administration responsible for a massive intelligence failure and what appears to be a scam regarding Iraq as well as the financial meltdown which came after six years of complete Republican rule is not demonizing. It is holding one sub-ideology responsible.
    .
    I say “sub-ideology” rather than “ideology” because, obviously liberal and conservative are two different forms of the ideology of democracy. Free elections, freedom of speech, etc, etc are not in contest as they would be if one were debating against actual communists or actual fascists.
    .
    “Your perception and opinion doesn’t make something true.”
    .
    When I shower you with links and quotes from outside sources and your response is that it does not match your personal experience of 72 years, you say that no source in the world from anybody is worth anything at all if it does not match your life experiences. “life experience” and “perception” are, in this context, interchangeable and what I have been saying to you since I first saw you here and you state that you are a former CEO, know better than any source from anybody and do a proverbial victory dance with other far right posters.
    .
    “Man up and argue the facts not opinions and agree to not agree if necessary. Stop all the Conservatives are evil BS.”
    .
    How about for you Man up and argue the facts not opinions and agree to not agree if necessary. Stop all the liberals are evil BS.
    .
    ” 90% of the Liberals on this site have continued to try and score political points because of this tragedy.”
    .
    The difference between holding irresponsible speech as a secondary or tertiary cause (after mental illness and the availability of weapons to the mentally ill) is not “scoring points”. It being justifiably critical of the means that some on the very far right communicate their differences.
    .
    “It is a closed mind.”
    .
    You haven’t conceded one point since I first saw you here in, I believe, April of 2010. If that is not closed minded, I do not know what is.
    .
    I have referred to you, 3X not as evil, but a far more subjective and far, far gentler charge of being ANNOYING.

  • bobcn1

    ‘You don’t blame an inanimate object such as a car or a gun.
    .
    You blame the irresponsible user.’

    .
    I think you missed the point. Using your comparison of cars and guns, we do, in fact, heavily regulate the use of cars in an effort to make society safer. There’s no reason why we can’t do the same with guns.
    .
    You can’t carry a gun on an airplane. You can’t carry a gun into a court. There are lots of places were we regulate the access to guns. Extending those regulations to town halls and other public events is reasonable and infringes on no one’s rights. Extending gun purchase background checks to include reports of unstable behavior (and stopping the charade of requiring ‘instant’ checks) would make us all safer and wouldn’t unreasonably hamper gun purchasers at all.

  • liberalmeltdown

    You still want to go along with the liberals plan for censorship 3x?

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    One thing sounds suspicious even in your article, 3X:
    .
    “Loughner also said in one video that government is “implying mind control and brainwash on the people by controlling grammar.” He described America’s laws as “treasonous” and said that “every human who’s mentally capable is always able to be treasurer of their new currency.”"
    .
    This sounds influenced by politics but by a person with very, very disordered thinking.
    .
    But, I am very, very pleasantly surprised that you used a links and did not say, “When I was a CEO and one of my employees was mentally ill….” and then follow through to say that you know far more than psychologist, psychiatrists and any source anybody can find about mental illness.
    .
    Your typical post would say things like that and then belittle everybody under the age 72 for being young and naive.

  • bobcn1

    ‘And swamp liberals think textee is nuts. You take the prize.’
    .
    Textee is nuts. This guy could certainly be in contention for a consolation prize, however.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    I’ve state before that 23 years ago (damn I feel so old for saying that) there was a man not healthier than this who murdered his step parents and set their bodies on fire in my home town when I was in high school.
    .
    I just believe that the rhetoric played a role in this guy’s choice of target.
    .
    Among the sane and mentally ill, if a violent act is to take place, it is almost always with somebody one knows personally and not a distant figure.
    .
    As a general rule, the people who should be afraid of violent people (mentally ill or not) are their closest relatives and closest friends.
    .
    Why the exception now?
    .
    Why not a McDonalds? McDonalds and many other places are in the public’s mind far more often than members of congress.
    .
    Ask most people how to get to the nearest McDonalds and, I would guess, about 98% will be able to give you directions in 30 seconds. Ask that same person the name of their congressperson and, at best, half would know right away.
    .
    So, again, why this change? Why isn’t it a story about a shooting at McDonalds, the Community College or this crazy SOB murdering his parents?

  • ohiolibb

    What? Still no evidence of liberal hate? Paranoia and stupidity, from twn, but that was posted after you made your allegations. So please, enlighten all of us with those comments you find so hateful.

  • nflfoghorn

    Is Denial the new E85? ;)

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Rusty,
    .
    An honest answer to an honest question (hence, not ball busting) is to look at two times in the last two posts when Apr methodically took dozens of angry statements of conservative commentators and compiled them into one post.
    .
    Seriously, you’d see how a deluded person could take those calls to action done via violent metaphor and see that it is very, very possible and even likely that this would change the target of a deluded person towards political targets.

  • Ivy_B

    Comments by two tea party leaders. You need to scroll down to Rick Ungar’s blog after the link loads.
    .
    http://blogs.forbes.com/rickungar/2011/01/09/tea-party-shamed-by-founder-judson-phillips/

  • http://erieangel.wordpress.com erieangel

    I am so sorry you and your brother have had such poor success finding him the help he needs. I will pray for him that he soon gets the help and recovers to a point where he can finally be a productive member of society doing whatever it is that makes him happy.

  • Ivy_B

    FYI, a friend of mine directs a library system in Arizona. They are spending $15,000 each to install gun safes in every one of their 17 branches because people are allowed to carry guns into public buildings in AZ, but the operator of the building can regulate them within its walls.

    That money would be better spent on materials or services. Just another little consequence of our obsession with guns.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Yes there are areas of discussion that I believe my personal education and long life experiences do give me some knowledge and expertise that some others on this site do not have.”
    .
    3X,
    .
    Besides having studied economics more than 30 years more recently than you did, my work is mostly cold calling businesses who tell me all about their concerns and the words “taxes” and “Health Care Reform” have not yet once come up.
    .
    Yet, when I use links to things which match both my workplace and educational experience, you go back to the fact that you once were a CEO of one company and worked in the same field in the same region and, without an outside reference belittle the experience I had earlier that same day as worthless as well as the information I post.
    .
    Then you are surprised that you get the nerf ball to head insult of “Mr Magoo” from me.
    .
    Locate outside sources which match your experiences and education and you will be a worthy debater. Just restating your resume sounds very, very arrogant and pompous.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Well, how do we know that a Coyote might not be in the non-fiction isle?
    .
    I mean, if a hungry coyote wanders into the library undetected and you don’t have your pistol on you, then – damn – you’d be mad at liberals.
    . :)

  • http://erieangel.wordpress.com erieangel

    earl, for once everybody agrees with you. But what are the solutions? When I was in the worst throes of my illness, I bounced checks, I didn’t take as good care of my children as I could have (missed parent/teacher conferences, they got themselves off to school, etc.); and I’ve had episodes of psychosis in which I’ve seen and heard things that were not there. Should my children have been taken away from me just in case I became violent? Should I have been locked up in a mental hospital to protect myself, my kids and the public from a harm I would have (maybe) perpetrated only upon myself? Should I have been forced to take an antipsychotic I did not want because I knew the side-effects and had previously told my doctor I would never take it?
    .
    Or should the budgets for community-based treatment programs be drastically raised? I can hear many on the right yelling “NO!” even as I type this. “We can’t just throw money at the problem” is a common refrain on many issues from health and human services to education to poverty. In sense I agree. We can’t just throw money at problems, that does nothing but waste money. Without a plan, to “throw money” at any problem is just … well, crazy. We need a plan, a good plan. And then we must throw whatever money is needed into implementing that plan. We must do this for the mentally ill. We must do this in regards to education. We must do this in regards of public safety, poverty, health care and any other issue that has plagued us. We must do this for the safety and security of American citizens, hence the safety and security of the nation.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “You still want to go along with the liberals plan for censorship 3x?”
    .
    First, wordpress is almost impossible to contact (as I did when everybody kept on getting put into moderation) much less to convince them to do anything. So, it is not a “plan” but just a concept.
    .
    Second, I, myself, was extremely specific. Not knowing computers well myself, I do not know how it could be done, but, to allow users to click something when somebody makes an ad hominem attack to bring it to a moderator’s attention so that the moderator – if it is an ad hominmem attack – will delete that remark and send an email warning to the user. After a particular number warnings the user ought to be banned. Next, I believe the same should be done for trolling, but, require for each warning at least nine out of ten people who have posted to that site agree that the person is trolling.
    .
    That is not what I would call “censorship”.
    .
    Your handle is trollery and that is why I almost always change it to Psychiatric Meltdown.

  • lepidusxvi

    People always need to see a reason, I think, at a base level.
    .
    Thus, it’s easy to say “politician shot, political rhetoric to blame,” or “shooting spree in a mall, video game with mall shooting to blame.”
    .
    People seek out the most obvious parallel and then place blame.
    .
    What’s upsetting is that while this is the exact same argument, the two sides have just flipped positions wholesale to argue each other’s sides.

  • lepidusxvi

    Weirdly, Rush Limbaugh of all people, came to this same conclusion:
    .
    “Go out and try to tell these same people that one of their top grossing movies has influenced has influenced abject perversion or radical behavior and they will attack you left and right.”
    .
    He’s right. I don’t know his history on demanding accountability and censorship in games, TV, books and movies is… but if he has been against that, you can at least give him a gold star for intellectual consistency.

  • 3xfire3

    Patrick,
    .
    If you cannot post anything that adds value in response to my posts, please stop replying to my posts.
    .
    I’m trying to tone it down but your ignorant replies make it very difficult.
    .
    Here we are discussing a major tragedy and how we can all do a better job of acting civil to each other and all you want to do is play games.
    .
    Life is serious. You need to be serious also.

  • 3xfire3

    ohiolibb,
    .
    “What? Still no evidence of liberal hate? Paranoia and stupidity, from twn, but that was posted after you made your allegations. So please, enlighten all of us with those comments you find so hateful.”
    .
    ohiolibb you are a piece of work. Your comments remind me a lot of Textee’s comments except his are more coherent.
    .
    I answered your post yesterday in “Time for a New Era” post 41.8. To make it easy on you I’m posting it again.
    .
    Every single day there are 10-20 examples of Liberal hate towards Conservatives posted here on the swamp.
    .
    You are so partisan that you think these statements are truth and therefor OK and are not really hate. Some L/P on the Swamp do more of these hateful comments than others. To pick one as an example would accomplish nothing in that you would not agree with the example.
    .
    That you think it is only conservatives that make these comments shows how biased you are.
    .
    Since the tragedy of Congresswoman Giffords took place, I have made numerous post encouraging both Liberals and Conservatives to tone down their comments and be more civil to each other. Stuart and a couple other Liberals that I respect have also joined in making these pleas.
    .
    Even with Stuart and myself and others encouraging civil comments there have been over 100 posts by Liberals trying to make political points by blaming this tragedy on Conservatives.
    .
    Is that enough examples for you? Conservatives, Liberals and even the President have made comments in the past that demonized the other side. We are all wrong in our actions.
    .
    If you come back and ask me again for examples I will not respond to you or Patrick.

  • 3xfire3

    Liberalmelt,
    .
    “You still want to go along with the liberals plan for censorship 3x?”
    .
    As I said in an earlier post, I never did. I was just trying to making a point.

  • ohiolibb

    Is that enough examples for you?
    -
    Except there isn’t a single example in there. NOT ONE!!
    You make a claim, expect to be able to back it up with specific examples or reasons. Provide a specific example or quote where a liberal said something hateful since you started making these claims.
    -
    Then again, considering you tried to find excuses for rusty’s genocidal rant, i doubt you have much of an idea of what “hateful” means.

  • 3xfire3

    erieangle,
    .
    You are a brave person and I sure you have done the best you could under the situations you had to face. Considering the cross you have had to bare, you have done a great job with your life. You should be proud of yourself. Many people would have given up. You didn’t. You’re a special person.
    .
    Yes the budgets for community-based treatment programs should be drastically raised. I don’t think you would find a disagreement from conservatives on that point. Conservatives may have ideas about doing this utilizing Community Hospitals as a resource. Both liberals and Conservatives would want to improve these programs. The only difference would be on which method would work best for the people in need.
    .
    If liberals and Conservatives would work together they could come up with good solutions to most problems. Neither side has all the best ideas but when we work together we can accomplish great things.
    .
    In the last two years Partisanship has been an issue on which each party has been equally guilty. Hopefully it will get better know that one party does not have control of the presidency and both houses of the congress.
    .
    As we have already seen, there has been more cooperation and accomplishments now that both sides must work together to accomplish the peoples business.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “#

    “Locate outside sources which match your experiences and education and you will be a worthy debater. Just restating your resume sounds very, very arrogant and pompous.
    patricksartor
    January 10, 2011
    at 6:47 pm
    #
    36.3

    Patrick,
    .
    If you cannot post anything that adds value in response to my posts, please stop replying to my posts.
    .
    I’m trying to tone it down but your ignorant replies make it very difficult.
    .
    Here we are discussing a major tragedy and how we can all do a better job of acting civil to each other and all you want to do is play games.
    .
    Life is serious. You need to be serious also.”
    .
    You thought that telling you that I do the proverbial equivalent of tossing a nerf ball at you because you have no idea how to debate was stand up comedy?
    .
    It isn’t.
    .
    You make statements, don’t back them up and then wonder why nobody takes your statement seriously.
    .
    That’s miserable debating.
    .
    You’re saying that backing up statements with known facts is “ignorant” and not agreeing with your statements which are not backed up is “closed minded”.
    .
    3X,
    .
    In person there must be something extremely likable about you.
    .
    Why do I say that?
    .
    Because, apparently, offline for 72 years you would make unfounded statements and, from what you tell us, people would nod their heads in agreement and tell you that you are 100% correct.
    .
    The only reason I could imagine nodding and agreeing with unfounded statements is if you are very loved or very feared.
    .
    So, I’ll presume very loved.
    .
    Which made you a terrible debater!

  • earljr1

    erie, your candor is very refreshing and like 3xfire, I commend you for having the courage and fortitude it took to reclaim your life. You are a living testimony to those who feel so helpless and out of control….things CAN turn around and progress is within your grasp. I wish there were some easy answers to your question, erie, but unfortunately, there are not. I DO know that caring for the mentally ill is one aspect of medicine where we seriously lack the resources to properly treat our patients. We simply have no where to send them. Community mental health centers are over crowded and seriously underfunded. The best we can do, is prescribe the medication and HOPE the patient takes those meds on a regular basis…too often, this is simply not the case and their illness only worsens. We stressed the need for vast improvement in this arena when we were asked for suggestions on how to improve our health delivery system and got little response from the politicians who crafted HCR……this, by its own self, is a travesty. The ONLY solution to correcting this problem, erie, is to increase funding for these centers and double the number of counselors and field representatives charged with the responsibility of following up on patients and assisting them when they are in a crisis mode. We have a long way to go, erie, to make this right, but it is something we MUST do to allow the mentally ill ANY hope of living a reasonably normal life.

  • apr2563

    Some states are now allowing customers to bring in guns, concealed and otherwise, into bars. I used to work in bars and taverns. I wouldn’t feel very comfortable doing so in those states. Guess the law makers never saw a bar fight.
    .
    Even Wyatt Earp collected guns from visitors to Tombstone. We are now living in the wild, wild, west.

  • apr2563

    Isn’t that incredible? I would hate to be the librarian having to collect those guns.

  • liberalmeltdown

    No, you would enjoy it.
    .
    Patrick you have shown that you are a complete partisan idiot the last few days.
    .

  • liberalmeltdown

    Patty, you are a cold caller? You get the lowest person on the totem pole and you say that they don’t tell you about taxes or health care? LOL.
    .
    OK. Press one to get a clue.

  • liberalmeltdown

    Patty, I invite you to go to the library in East LA. Just hang out for an hour. When they ask you where are you from, you should say: liberal La La Land. It’s a fairy tale.

  • tomdegan

    One of the tragedies of history is the fact that Lee Oswald never had the chance to testify in his own defense. I’m not one of these people who believe that the man was some kind of patsy who was framed for killing President Kennedy. I have no doubt that he was the one (and the only one) who pulled the trigger of the Manila Carcana rifle that ended JFK’s life. But I have a theory:

    Oswald was an extreme left winger – the type of which no longer exists in this country: a committed Communist. I believe that had he been living in New York or Boston or Los Angeles – or even Atlanta – when the president rolled into town, he never would have attempted assassination. But he wasn’t in any of those cities. He was living in Dallas, Texas. In November of 1963, Dallas was the right wing capital of the nation. Just a few weeks before the Kennedy shooting, UN Ambassador Adlai Stevenson had been physically attacked and spat on at an appearance in that city.

    Lee Oswald’s motive for killing John F. Kennedy was not fame and recognition. He vehemently denied having any part in the shooting.

    “I DIDN’T KILL ANYBODY, NO SIR!”

    That was his story and he was sticking to it! He didn’t have to stick to it for very long, though. Forty-eight hours after he was arrested, a single bullet from Jack Ruby’s gun forever silenced Lee Harvey Oswald. What could have been his motive? Here’s my theory: He killed Kennedy because he really believed he could get away with it. The atmosphere in Dallas, Texas on November 22, 1963 was so politically toxic, Oswald must have assumed that the police and Secret Service would immediately focus on one or more that city’s illustrious right wing crackpots.

    The extremism of 1963 was pretty much isolated to a few southern cities. Forty-eight years later it’s gone national. What happened in Arizona over the weekend is only the beginning. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but America’s political discourse has been hijacked by half-wits and crazy people. Their spokespersons make their names by inflaming their clueless masses with the language of hate. That’s their job. Then again, I’m not giving away any state secrets here, am I?

    http://www.tomdegan.blogspot.com

    Tom Degan

  • doddeb

    Thanks erieangel. Your prayers are much appreciated. It is dispiriting to read the stories of others who have gone through this/are going through it (from apr2563 and wanderingspector, below). I believe that a society is judged on the manner in which it cares for its most vulnerable citizens. From what I’ve seen and read, we have a ways to go in this country.

blog comments powered by Disqus