Quote of the Day

“We’ve become a nation of wusses. The Chinese are kicking our butt in everything. If this was in China do you think the Chinese would have called off the game? People would have been marching down to the stadium, they would have walked and they would have been doing calculus on the way down.”

Pennsylvania Governor Ed Rendell, after the NFL postponed Sunday night’s Philadelphia Eagles-Minnesota Vikings game because of snow

Related Topics: Uncategorized
  • Latest on Swampland

    The Phony War: Obama and Romney Are Debating Character, Not Policy

    More than five months from Election Day, the back-and-forth about Mitt Romney’s record at Bain already feels played out. Unfortunately, there’s good reason to expect the campaign continues in this vein indefinitely. Neither Barack Obama nor Mitt Romney are terribly interested in dwelling on policy platforms. Romney’s plan to slash spending and keep taxes low on the wealthy isn’t especially popular, at least not at any level of detail beyond a blithe promise to shrink the deficit. Meanwhile, Obama’s signature first-term achievements, like health care, the stimulus and Wall Street reform, are all unpopular or tricky to sell. (The Dodd-Frank bill is the most popular of these, but hyping it means offending wealthy donors.) So what we’re getting instead is a superficial duel about character–and, worse, one that’s based on the largely false premise that the better man can better “manage” the economy back to health.

    Obama Administration Blocks Global Health Fund To Fight Disease In Developing NationsHuffPost Politics

    Audacity of Dope: Tales of a Toking Teenage Obama

    We knew Barack Obama smoked weed in high school because he wrote about it in his books. What we didn’t know until Buzzfeed posted these choice nuggets (I’m so sorry) from David Maraniss’s new book on the President’s younger years, is the giggle-worthy details of his “Choom Gang” lifestyle, which are right out of a buddy stoner flick. Obama and his friends drove around the lush Hawaii countryside, hot-boxing their VW bus and re-upping with a long-haired pizza-tossing dealer named Ray, who Obama thanked in his yearbook “for all the good times.”

  • sacredh

    Marijuana is legal in Pennsylvania? Ed’s been too friendly with his buds.

  • sacredh

    Ed, this isn’t China. There probably aren’t enough people in our whole country that know calculus to even fill a stadium.

  • ricardo4max

    Ed, this is a direct result of the liberalization of America. Real men (and Women) are a threat to the power and brainwashing by Liberals (aka Democrats, progressives, etc..). Self reliant independent thinking strong Americans will not tolerate the subjugation of the masses or Marxism.
    Effeminate, metrosexual sissies dependent on govt and whining about everything is what is desired. Just look at our pansy President.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Self reliant independent thinking strong Americans will not tolerate the subjugation of the masses or Marxism.”
    .
    Just like the Chinese won’t tolerate subjugation of the masses or Marxism….
    .
    Wait, a second, retardomax, I think you’re a little confused.
    .
    Have you bee playing the the home lobotomy kit you got for Christmas or what?

  • 11charlie

    I take it the governor planned on being on the sidelines during the game. To show how a “Real American” watches a football game.
    .
    And he believes that Americans need to look for inspiration,……..from communists?

  • hippooath

    “Ed, this is a direct result of the liberalization of America. Real men (and Women) are a threat to the power and brainwashing by Liberals (aka Democrats, progressives, etc..). Self reliant independent thinking strong Americans will not tolerate the subjugation of the masses or Marxism.
    Effeminate, metrosexual sissies dependent on govt and whining about everything is what is desired. Just look at our pansy President.”
    .
    Children, lets count all the BS in this post…yes Bob, why don’t you start.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor
  • http://shortplaysaboutrealpeople.wordpress.com Michael Maiello

    If this were China, people would be hunkered down in factories performing low end manufacturing tasks to the point of near suicide so I think our supposed leaders need to stop it with the China envy. That is not the kind of life Americans do or should want.

  • Ivy_B

    Hmmm. Watching from a Super Box, getting there in a car driven by someone else? Don’t think Gov Ed would have been walking down Broad Street to get there.

    I like a lot of things Ed has done over the years, but sometimes he just doesn’t engage his brain before speaking.

    As the President of the Eagles said, there was a good chance that at the end of the game they would have wound up with a lot of people in the building with no way to get home, cold, etc. Good decision to postpone.

    Ed was probably thinking of what he could say in the postgame show he is on — great run, although you couldn’t tell if he made it because you couldn’t see the line markers. Too bad so many players slipped on the snow and broke limbs, but them’s the breaks of the game…

    Harumph.

  • freeinpa

    “The lady (liberals) doth protest too much, methinks.”

  • 3xfire3

    Patrick,
    .
    “Yeah, back when Bush was president, he always was a man’s man!”
    .
    Patrick I believe this is the first true statement you have ever made. Congratulations.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    3BobfireX,
    .
    Honestly, what part of a tall, basketball playing black man who speaks like a newscaster seems effeminate to you?
    .
    Obviously Saudi and American customs on touching are very different and Bush accommodated the king violating our social norms for the sake of diplomacy, but, it looks really funny.
    .
    Is there a counterpart for this president?

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    That’s a god damn fckng lie!
    .
    Everybody knows you don’t think, Freakinpa.

  • freeinpa

    And in a surprise to no one you once again demonstrate why you are the drop out extraordinaire as your ability to read and reason has again failed.

    Care to protest again nancy boy?

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “methinks.”
    .
    Obviously from all of your posts, you don’t think.
    .
    You just say everything the far right commentators say.
    .
    This AM radio meets Freakinpa:
    .

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    People getting into a pissing match over whose testosterone levels are more adequate is like two crack-heads arguing over whose stash is purer. Are we actually discussing a positive trait in the first place?

  • freeinpa

    “Obviously from all of your posts, you don’t think.
    .
    You just say everything the far right commentators say.”
    .
    Leaving the veracity of your claim aside (have somebody explain it to you), that is still a sight better than you listening to the voices in your head.

  • 53_3

    And in other news today, Sarah Palin likens herself to Shakespeare:
    http://blog.seattlepi.com/seattlepolitics/archives/233326.asp
    .
    I think that must be where freeinpa is coming from.
    .
    Uh, “methinks”…

  • rdw56

    Nothing common about common sense is there? Fast Eddie had declared a state of emergency as did the Gov of NJ. That means non-essential people are asked to stay off the roads. Further the patco highspeed line into Philly had shut down and 1/3 of the Eagles fans live in NJ. The worse of the blizzard was expected to be during the game and it was. It would have taken those people many hours to get home and there would have been hundreds of accidents. This was a no brainer and even in Philly the decision is getting broad support. Had it been a 1 o’clock game they probably could have gotten it in. But leaving a game 11:30 at night after 4 hours of blizzard? They made the right call.

  • 53_3

    Best short of the year!!!!
    .
    FTW

  • rdw56

    Honestly, what part of a tall, basketball playing black man who speaks like a newscaster seems effeminate to you?

    ****************************

    What part doesn’t? It doesn’t matter even a little but Obama and Clinton both are classic metrosexuals. What does tall or being black have to do with being effeminate, or not? As far as BB wasn’t he just evacuated from a game by the secret service because he split his lip? A real man presses his towel to it for 2 minutes and gets back in the game.

    BTW: He’s not a wuss either. Patreaus talks like a diplomat but runs his army like Patton. This is with Obama’s approval. He put Petraeus in place because he is a killer. Still, he comes off as a fancy pants.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “..listening to the voices in your head..”
    .
    I listen to NPR, 1010 WINS news and read the NY Times and the Wall Street Journal when I want facts.
    .
    Your constant reference to mental illness and your familiarity with it is very disturbing.

  • rdw56

    Absolutely true, moreover their economic miracle is extracting heavy costs on their environment and like all planned economies is extremely inefficient. My sis-in-law more than 5 years ago traveled to 5 different cites to scout for a college exchange program and had to cross all 5 cities off due to air pollution. Spend a semester there you’ll come home speaking like a frog.

  • freeinpa

    There is more useful information on the back of a cereal box than a Seattle newspaper. Which explains you continuing drop in IQ points

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    wd40,
    .
    This would mean that you agree with the governor’s actions, but, like me, disagree with the quote.

  • freeinpa

    “It doesn’t matter even a little but Obama and Clinton both are classic metrosexuals”
    .
    As Hillary and Michelle wear the pants in the family

  • freeinpa

    “Your constant reference to mental illness and your familiarity with it is very disturbing.”
    .
    It is easy to view as you demonstrate it every day.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Brushing your teeth and shaving daily is not “Metrosexual”.
    .
    This is moronic.

  • 53_3

    And where does that leave FOX, eh?

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Like I said. A couple of crack addicts arguing over whose stash is purer.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Freak,
    .
    Why don’t you actually look at real news sources since inspecting your colon with your face has produced nothing but crap?
    .
    Your knowledge of psychology is almost as weak as your knowledge of biology, history, constitutional law, economics, climatology and fourth grade math.

  • 53_3

    He throws like a girl, too.
    .
    Don’t leave out any of the really, really important negatives in a president!

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “And where does that leave FOX, eh?”
    .
    About half as useful a use of time as watching Gilligan’s Island.
    .
    Marianne was hot… Ann Coulter – not so much.

  • 53_3

    freeinpa isn’t very smart, Patrick.
    .
    He’s been threatening to drop my IQ for years.
    .
    You know why he never does it?
    .
    My guess is that it’s the suspense, plus the fact that 0 isn’t very far from where he is now.
    .
    …so linear…

  • rdw56

    I like a lot of things Ed has done over the years, but sometimes he just doesn’t engage his brain before speaking

    ************************************************

    I’m from philly and deeply conservative and he’s the best I could expect from a Democrat. He did a great job as mayor of the city for two terms. He’s a very nice, affable, regular guy who will talk to anyone and likes everyone. But you nailed it. He’s created a lot of controversy with his statements and he’s getting killed. But it won’t hurt him because this isn’t something new. It’s part of the package and explains the “Fast Eddie” moniker. He actually confirmed an old story he paid two guys $20 to bomb Santa Claus with snowballs from the stands. His version is he bet them $20 they could not reach the field but if they did they had to leave. He says they left. I like Eddie. I’ve posted before his term of Gov is up in a few days and if Obama were smart he’d find room in his administration for him. But that story, I’m not buying it.

    He did something in Philly that I think is unique. They had a 4.95% residents wage tax and 4.3125% non-resident wage tax. People left the city in droves for > 2 decades. He enacted a series of small cuts that were derided because they were small. But he did them each year for 8 and Mayor Street continued. The residents tax is under 4% and non-residents under 3.5%. Philly has the same struggles as all big cities but is going comparatively well.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “…nancy boy?”
    .
    WTF is this all about?
    .
    Believing that the US should be pleased that we are not like China to you means that one is…. homosexual?
    .
    Being a real man to you means having an economy that sucks sht, taxes on the poor and middle income families so that supporting a family is far more difficult than necessary is… homosexual?
    .
    Fathering children and wishing to support them is a heterosexual act.

  • freeinpa

    “Why don’t you actually look at real news sources since inspecting your colon with your face has produced nothing but crap?”
    .
    Again you prove the point. Imaginary facts, rage, manic behavior.

    .
    Seriously seek help. It is starting to look more that you were thrown out of college for mental disorders than just dropping out

  • 53_3

    Wow. Just Wow.
    .
    Why can’t we be real men like you, Ricardo?

  • 53_3

    I hate to say it, but 7.10 is entwirely gratuitous.
    .
    Not a shred of actual content…

  • rdw56

    It’s a slow news day, so what? I did forget about him bouncing the ball up to the plate. That’s stone sissy. He’s a classic liberal man. That’s why the contrast with Sarah, the great huntress, is so cool. Liberal men don’t want to think about how that meat got to their plate but know they despise hunters and see gun owners as goons. I’m a bit of a sissy myself in that regard. I’ll not have a gun in my house nor kill game animals but I don’t get prissy about it either.

  • hippooath

    “nancy boy”
    .
    Patrick. Freeinpa is your average cyber bully. He likes to imply that others are girlie men, fatties etc. it’s pretty pathetic stuff. And when he can’t answer a simple question he goes the ‘you’re an idiot’ rout and pretends he won the argument because someone is ‘stupid’.
    .
    Basic trollery, just another cyber bully. It’s cute and silly. He actually thinks he upsets people by acting like a teenager calling someone four eyes. I laugh every time when he starts his fat, girlie man sh!t. I showed it to my 16 year old son and he said he knows guys like that in school. Tells you something.

  • freeinpa

    “I hate to say it, but 7.10 is entwirely gratuitous.
    .
    Not a shred of actual content..”
    .
    You hate to say it but you do. And how selectively you pick posts that you think have no content. But I guess the real question are you upset because it might infringe on the role you and Rev Jim have of going on and on without saying anything?
    .
    Both of you see a post from a conservative and go into a blinding drooling rage. Post paragraphs which consist of liberal facts, name calling and general drivel then decry response that point out the mental instability of your actions.
    .
    If I post something with “no content” it is in response to idiotic babbling by one of several liberals here (and you all know who you are)

  • freeinpa

    First you complain abouit no content then the psycho twins post multiple columns with no content just nonsense.

    Time for your meds boys and back to the basement

  • 53_3

    Drooling rage, freeinpa?
    .
    You doth give yourself too much credit, methinks.
    .
    Maybe you shouldn’t take yourself so seriously, after all, I certainly don’t…

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “They had a 4.95% residents wage tax and 4.3125% non-resident wage tax. People left the city in droves for > 2 decades. He enacted a series of small cuts that were derided because they were small. But he did them each year for 8 and Mayor Street continued. The residents tax is under 4% and non-residents under 3.5%.”
    .
    How much of a tax break is that?
    .
    For me, enough money to even notice that it exists would be if on pay day for a single guy he can have some walking around money of, say, an additional $25 so that he can take a girl out for a drink or, if he has kids, treat them to pizza on Friday night. Or for the big savers, about $1,000 for a four or five day trip every year.
    .
    So, $25 X 52 = $1,300.
    .
    The tax cut is 4.3125% – 3.5% = 0.8125%.
    .
    How much does one need to earn before that tax break can be pizza night?
    .
    $1,300/0.008125 = $160,000.
    .
    So, I can see why some people earning $160,000 per year or more will be more willing to live in Philly, but, for everybody making less, like the national average of about $50,0000, I don’t that would keep many people.
    .
    Also, if Philly took the tax money, hired more and better trained cops, maybe the crime rate would go down to as low as NYCs and people will be thrilled to move into town.
    .
    For an average wage earner, your talking about $7.8125 a week (yes, rounded down to a quarter of a penny).
    .
    If I were making $50k per year, I’d rather have additional cops on the street than $7.81 a week.

  • 53_3

    See 7.11 and 7.13 above.
    .
    So little content and so much time…

  • freeinpa

    “Don’t leave out any of the really, really important negatives in a president!”
    .
    Unlike the astute imperatives you relay about Sarah Palin right?
    .
    But you missed his scholarly knowledge of geography and math when he visited 57 states.

    PS He would be cut from a girls team

  • freeinpa

    “shaving daily is not “Metrosexual”.

    it is if its your legs or Janet Reno’s mustasche

  • nflfoghorn

    “If this was in China do you think the Chinese would have called off the game?”
    .
    Well I guess we’d have to first put an American football team in Szechuan or somewhere to find out: the Beijing Great Walls? New Ming Patriots? Tiananmen Square Massacares?
    .
    And that calculus thing sounded like an upgraded stereotype to me.

  • 53_3

    We all know how smart Sarah Palin is. And she’s not president.
    .
    Of course, even I know that North Korea isn’t our ally. Maybe you should inform her of that fact…

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Liberal men don’t want to think about how that meat got to their plate but know they despise hunters..”
    .
    I told you before.
    .
    Buy me a riffle and I can register it up the street at the police station and pay for the hunting trip between now and Friday (if it is hunting season) and I’ll give a hunting a try right now myself.
    .
    “…and see gun owners as goons..”
    .
    No, we think selling guns to the Virginia tech shooter using a gun in an urban environment is an unimaginably bad idea.
    .
    Why does every wingnut here think he can read minds.
    .
    I don’t know what you think. I do, however, suspect that you don’t think, you just do what you’re told.

  • freeinpa

    IQ3
    .
    You make the assumption that I or anyone outside of your mother actually cares what you (well think is too strong a word for you) babble.
    .
    Take a victory and go back to the basement you really showed me

    (add delusional to psychotic as list of your mental disorders)

  • nflfoghorn

    Patrick S hit it @ 12.0….the post isn’t about RustFreep anyway. But to PS’s side point: Ann =/= Mary Ann & Ginger leaves her in the dust! :)
    .
    Rendell’s always good for a sound bite or two, even if it’s not entirely accurate. He’s taken over that mantle from Howard Dean and Joe Biden.

  • hippooath

    “freeinpa isn’t very smart, Patrick.
    .
    He’s been threatening to drop my IQ for years.
    .
    You know why he never does it?
    .
    My guess is that it’s the suspense, plus the fact that 0 isn’t very far from where he is now.
    .
    …so linear…”
    .
    There’s nothing wrong with Freeinpa’s IQ. In his more lucid moments when he engages in a serious argument he can provide a decent counter argument. Only problem is that he gets his information from people like Ann Coulter and believes that sh!t.
    .
    I’ve seen it happen to others I used to discuss things with; people who would never seriously consider Bush a ‘thinker’ but slowly through the political divide would swear by a ideological light weight like Sarah.
    .
    I really don’t understand it; as much as I detest hateful sprites like Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh, they can and often do provide a vivid counterpunch. You can easily defeat BS like that with facts, but there’s no question that they can stand their ground.
    .
    That’s not the case with people like Glenn and Sarah, but somehow that have also transformed what I would consider fairly level headed induviduals to slopping idjuts. It’s like the light went off and all intellectual curiousity went with it.

    The best I get now is you liberals this and you liberals that. There’s absolutely no content to the kind of mythical babble these people think about ‘liberals’ but it substitutes any substantive discussion about real political differences.
    .
    I’m guessing Freeinpa would have a pretty decent argument against any liberal or progressive idea if he skipped the whole drool and stool argument and looked at the factual plane instead.

  • 53_3

    Oh, the suspense!
    .
    Down to 3…

  • freeinpa

    And yet you respond.

    So with you it is so little brain and too much time and a burden to society.

    I guess mommy won’t let you talk at home so you keep repeating the same nonsense in the desperate attempt to be noticed. How sad?

  • hippooath

    “Both of you see a post from a conservative and go into a blinding drooling rage. Post paragraphs which consist of liberal facts, name calling and general drivel then decry response that point out the mental instability of your actions.”
    .
    You’re not a conservative.
    .
    And please – lets not engage in the fiction that the sh!t you deal here is any different from anyone elses sh!t. Again – you’re not a conservative in the slightest.

  • 53_3

    I like the “drool and stool” phrase, hippoath. I just let him keep spewing after a point is made and let him demonstrate his own “intellect”.
    .
    It’s like Pavlov:
    .
    statement
    .
    Insult.
    .
    Loop…

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Wait, wait, wait…
    .
    Rev Jim from Taxi was hetersexual.
    .
    He was skinny.
    .
    Metrosexuals and stereotypical gays are skinny, too.
    .
    You spend all of your time attacking Universities for teaching that there is climate change and that evolution is real, but, you then say that I wasn’t good enough to be in a university.
    .
    That would make me conservative.
    .
    You’re going to have to get your insults straight here.
    .
    You’re actually failing trolling 101.
    .
    At least get your insults straight.

  • rdw56

    Not quite sure what you mean by his actions but what he said was stupid, on every level. Eddie is very well known here for many things including comments like this. He’s a well known Eagles season ticket holder and for many, many years sat outside with the fans. He’s a regular guest on the comcast post game show and very opinionated. He can get on your nerves but his fandom is deep and authentic. The last major episode was when he went nuts after the trade of McNabb. He was livid and bitter and said he’d root for the Redskins. He took an even bigger beating over that one and looks the bigger fool.

    You might remember he was the chairman of the DNC the year Gore ran. He infuriated Gore when immediately after the decision was announced he said, on CNN I think, It’s over, Bush won. Ed was a DA for 20 years. He knows the law. Team Gore saw it was breaking ranks and it got ugly for a few days. Classic Ed.

    As far as China I think the danger is vastly overstated. North Korea, Iran and Venezuela are led by whacko’s and far more dangerous. China has far more economic hazzards ahead than do we and their emerging power is matched by their arrogance. We don’t have to contain them. We can help the Japanese, South Koreans, Vietnamese, Indonesians and Indians do that. China will become more dangerous when those in political control feel threatened. They have a lot of economic advantages now but they’re not permanent and it’s still at it’s core a planned economy.

  • freeinpa

    “I don’t know what you think. I do, however, suspect that you don’t think, you just do what you’re told.”
    .
    You don’t know what somebody thinks but it never stops you from commenting on it anyway.
    .
    You continue to over estimate your ability to think as your track record of a drop out, failure at cabbing, used car sales, rejected civil servant suggests otherwise. But then liberal arrogance and delusions are all you have

  • hippooath

    “”shaving daily is not “Metrosexual”.
    .
    it is if its your legs or Janet Reno’s mustasche”
    .
    Now THAT is a pretty snappy comeback. Someone dropped their keys for sure

  • hippooath

    “I like the “drool and stool” phrase, hippoath. I just let him keep spewing after a point is made and let him demonstrate his own “intellect”.
    .
    It’s like Pavlov:
    .
    statement
    .
    Insult.
    .
    Loop…”
    .
    I’m going to be honest tho – garbage in and garbage out. It’s not like us answering with tit for tat improves the conversation. I don’t see any reason why Freeinpa should engage in a serious discussion if the tit for tat is more a paddle and pat.
    .
    But anyways.

  • freeinpa

    “You’re not a conservative”
    .
    And now we have heard from th e3rd stooge.

    No need for facts just whatever drivel flows out of their mouths

  • freeinpa

    “He’s been threatening to drop my IQ for years”
    .
    That is an automatic process no need for my help

  • freeinpa

    “I’m going to be honest tho – garbage in and garbage out. It’s not like us answering with tit for tat improves the conversation.”

    .

    . And yet you do it all with the moral superiority and mental bankruptcy of a liberal. You can’t help yourself its a mental disorder-liberalism

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    rdw!
    .
    You believe in Air Pollution!
    .
    AMAZING!
    .
    I am proud of you.
    .
    I thought that you considered the concept of “air” a “liberal fact” and a Marxist conspiracy.

  • 53_3

    You have a point Hippoath.
    .
    I have too much time on my hands but even then It’s not much fun after it degenerates to that point…

  • stuartzechman

    Are open auditions being held for a Village People revival or something?
    .
    ricardo4max must be brushing up on his butch drag routine for some reason.
    .
    Or I suppose he could have just stayed in his bedroom during the holidays watching “300,” and he’s all hot now.
    .

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Freak,
    .
    The difference between you and a conservative is that actual conservatives think.
    .
    They may think of different solutions than liberals do, but they think.
    .
    See 7.0

  • 53_3

    Loop…

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    I’ll grant him +2 points for the Janet Reno one.
    .
    That is, at least, amusing trollery.

  • hippooath

    “And now we have heard from th e3rd stooge.
    .
    No need for facts just whatever drivel flows out of their mouths”
    .
    if stating facts are stoogie to you, so be it. There’s nothing conservative about whatever few political ideas you share here. Outside the basic insults which covers a good 3/4th, whats left boils down to ‘tax cuts are good’ and ‘you liberals just want to take my money and redistribute it’.
    .
    That’s a libertarian wet dream, not actual fiscal policy. Your defense of the extension of tax cuts was basically ‘you’re an idjut – only spending is deficite’. I guess my mortgage is a savings account just waiting to blossom (in other words your tax cut is financed by loans).
    .
    I’ll call you a conservative when you show a crawl of life of it in any part of your ‘body’.

  • hippooath

    “And yet you do it all with the moral superiority and mental bankruptcy of a liberal. You can’t help yourself its a mental disorder-liberalism”
    .
    Stay classy, One can always depend on you showing your integrity after you first drag it through a cow patch and then pretend the au the cowsh!t is what the dry cleaner washed it with. Anyways – I’ll take anything you say in advice when you drop the douche bag hanging from your soul.

  • rdw56

    Patrick, you have it exactly wrong. I moved out of the city because of it and so did most of my friends. Moving out of the city gets an automatic pay raise and if you are making $50,000 that’s $2,450 a year. That’s huge. The problem wasn’t just people leaving the city it was the jobs leaving. The financial services industry essentially relocated to Conshohocken and King of Prussia.

    Philly is actually a pretty nice city and it’s fairly safe with much of the crime concentrated in the poor sections and they’re much smaller. Overbrook High had 5,500 students in 1970. They’re down to about 1,400. Downtown is nice and vibrant. The city has for decades granted taxrebates for new construction such as condo’s and factory makeovers and at the same time Rendell led a move to essentially privatize many services such as the parks and downtown cleanup. Some of the center city parks are beautiful as is the 5 mile stretch from City Hall out to boathouse row along the river. The Art Musuem and a dozen other like facilities have far sounder financial standing thanks to efforts by Rendell to get donors like Walter Annenberg, Verizon, Comcast and others to builld permanent trusts for both operational and capital expenses. He raised majority private funds to build a $50M new music center now called the Verizon center which is a block away from the Old Academy of music which was also completely refurbished with private money. The Orchestra plays at the new Verizon center while the old academy of music handles a variety of programs. The Academy of the Arts is doing quite well.

    There is no question Rendells fiscal management saved the city from becoming Detroit or Cleveland and the really good news is Mayor Street and now Mayor Nutter have also been smart fiscally. They’re not tax and spend liberals. When you look at where the city was in 1979 and then now it’s quite a stunning turnaround. I should add the role of hospitals and Education. They’re booming. Penn and Drexel as well as Temple may have tripled in size. One of the cool partnership encouraged by the city is Drexel. Penn and a private developer managing the real estate along the ricer south of the falls with the plan to extend the East river drive, Kelley drive, all the way to the Naval Yard. It formed more than 10 years ago and they’ve been buying property ever since. Penn just bought a 56 acre factory off Dupont right on the water and near their hospital complex. The land has been reclamated and Penn will tear down the factory and use for athletics and open space with public access. All of this is working because the City has backed off and encouraged private investing.

  • nflfoghorn

    Similarly, our RINO mayors in Big North FL City shaved a little off the millage rate each year, allowing growth to (ostensibly) make up the difference, then claimed they cut taxes. Now we’ve been hit with a garbage fee, stormwater tax and electric rate increase (aka franchise fee) in the past 18 months. I’m not saying Rendell isn’t honest, but he IS a politician after all….

  • rdw56

    That’s cold. He’s no where near as bad as those two and he gets a bit of a break here because it’s about a football game. Not exactly an important matter of state business. The current Mayor, Michael Nutter, handled him quite well. Without even a hint of rancor he pointed out the NFL made the decision without any consultation and that part of that decision was based on the fact the governor declared a state of emergency. A rather nice way of telling the governor ‘you’re off your rocker.

  • 53_3

    #
    #
    # Freeinpa’s Function
    #
    Drop bomb in middle of crowd
    Get(response)
    .
    LastWord = False
    Loop unitl LastWord = True
    . Toss(insult)
    . Get(insult)
    . . If Get(response).IsNull():
    . . . . .LastWord = True
    end Loop

  • rdw56

    patrick,

    liberal men banned guns in Chicago and DC and cried a river when the Supreme Court just decided the right to bear arms extends to the individual. Yes there are liberal men who own guns and hunt but they are the exception.

  • nflfoghorn

    rdw, I think that’s what got his panties in a bunch – the fact that he wasn’t consulted! How dare the NFL (THAT NFL ;) ) make a decision w/o talking to HIM?

  • hippooath

    “liberal men banned guns in Chicago and DC and cried a river when the Supreme Court just decided the right to bear arms extends to the individual. Yes there are liberal men who own guns and hunt but they are the exception.”
    .
    Among them are the many police officers that don’t like to get shot at or be forced to shoot some teenager with a submachinegun. This is not about ‘liberal men’. And you don’t know sh!t about hunters if you say that liberal and hunting is an exception. More of that cat litter ideologues such as yourself pretend to be the truth

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Ok,
    .
    Philly is a place I have never been and what I have heard is between 5 and 20 years old. So, outside of saying that it remains far higher in crime than NYC (more than 240% of NYC’s crime rate) there are, also, schools and overall quality of life.
    .
    NYC schools have been on a gradual rise over the past 30 years.
    .
    So, just like any other expenditure, it matters what you get for it.
    .
    Do I want to pay $1,000?
    .
    For what?
    .
    For a New Mercedes? Hell Yeah!
    .
    For lunch? Fck No!
    .
    NYC is continuing to grow.
    .
    The availability of unionized jobs keeps the working class well paid and able to, very often, send their children on to college.
    .
    That’s not to mention, of course, that in addition to state colleges of New York, there are four year city colleges of New York. You get a good deal for your money…. unless you mean a good job of clearing snow on December 26th when half of the department of sanitation was home digesting their Christmas dinner and putting their kids toys together (it’s a mess and has been for 72 hours now – which is the equivalent to two weeks in when translating from NYC time).
    .
    So high tax for high service is a model that has served NYC very well over the years.

  • 53_3

    Maybe there is common ground here.
    .
    I think that he is vested in the fact his team is 10-4 and doesn’t want to risk problems by having the makeup game (tuesday??) too close to their next regular season game.
    .
    He’s just flapping his mouth…

  • rdw56

    If I were making $50k per year, I’d rather have additional cops on the street than $7.81 a week.

    ***********************************************

    Patrick, we have reams of data on this. The city suffered an exodus of jobs and workers and everyone hated the tax.

    And where are you getting $7.81? If you make $50K and move out of the city you saved 4.95% which is $47.52 a week. When I got out of school I never considered living in the city.

    The city didn’t have a shortage of cops and no one was calling for tax increases to add cops. Philly was in a competitive environment and got it’s butt kicked. One of me was the rail line to NJ was shut down and 1/3 of Eagle fans live in NJ. The vast majority of them were either born in Philly or their parents were.

  • 53_3

    Our sales tax is now 9.9% and we aren’t losing population either. East King county is growing like crazy…

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    For my source of crime stats:
    .
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate
    .
    I always laugh when I hear in movies that they always give gangsters a Brooklyn accent. Most parts of Brooklyn the toughest thing they deal with a a long line at the Starbucks waiting for a double latte.
    .
    The Bronx…. that has a good number of sketchy areas, but I’m in Queens.

  • 53_3

    The exodus(es) from the midwest steel and manufacturing belt likely has a far more significant cause:
    .
    The collapse of both the steel and manufacturing sectors of the economy. The timing is abut right.
    .
    To blame it on taxes alone is to ignore the brontosaur in the bedroom…

  • http://erieangel.wordpress.com erieangel

    freak, you constantly imply that people are mentally ill when they don’t think as you do. It’s getting old. And it is very insulting to those who actually suffer from a serious brain disorder.
    .
    That said. I agree with Mr. Rendell. Philly got an entire 12 inches of snow. Oh the horror. Lets shut down the city. I’m in PA, too, but on Lake Erie 12 inches isn’t even considered a snow storm here. It’s flurries. Erie, Buffalo, Cleveland, we all get horrondous snow storms with the lake effect. 12 inches, though? Phtt. Shovel the side walks, plow the major streets and the people do what they need to do to get through unplowed streets, usually just push right along the snowy street. Nobody in Erie would ever be stranded because of 12 inches of snow.

  • 53_3

    Crime rates climb during times of high unemployment, caused most generally by those causes pointed out above.

  • rdw56

    That’s what was funny about Nutter. The sports talk show on the radio WIP and on comcast sportnet interviewed him because rendell generated this controversy and while he had every right to be annoyed at Rendell, because many people assumed it was Nutter’s call, he wasn’t angry. He was amused and classy. I suspect he knows Rendel so well, and likes him, he didn’t want to pile on. 1st off he did a really good job managing the storm having been all over the news in the morning asking people to stay home if possible and reporting on plans and all that, including, pleas that Eagle fans try to use public transportation promising extra trains to handle the expected surge. He has his own tickets and planned to go there himself from City Hall via the subway. He was also standing with the streets people who told him the obvious, they can’t plow a parking lot full of cars and if they get 6 inches during the storm they might not get out within 6 hours. He also knew NJ shut down the rail line into NJ. It really was an easy call. Nutter and the people at the Eagles had to struggle to take him seriously.

  • 53_3

    The difficulties encountered by the midwest and central US were not caused by liberal policies.
    .
    Outsourcing and unfavorable trade agreements supported by both Dem and GOP administrations allowed S. Korea to dump steel at reduced prices here in the ’80s and ’90s choking off the industries that supported most Midwesterners.
    .
    The manufacturing sector was destroyed in the same manner: Oursourcing, under the guise of the “inevitability of Globalization” killed that sector.
    .
    No one mentions globalization today. And I don’t wonder why…

  • 53_3

    Let’s also not forget that until Boeing moved to Chicago, little in the way of an influx of new sources of jobs has taken place, and thus, left the midwest very vulnerable to economic mayhem such as the one that hit full force in Aug, 2008 (and is still a work in progress).
    .
    These things are not complicated when one backs off to view the landscape with a wider scope…

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “And where are you getting $7.81? ”
    .
    Old commuter tax: 4.3125%
    New commuter tax rate: 3.5%
    _________________________
    Difference: 0.8125%
    .
    For $50,000 per year X 0.8125 = 462.50/year.
    .
    Per week: $781 per week in tax cuts.
    .
    Not much.

  • 53_3

    Some of the most significant contributors the situation in the Midwest as a whole are presented in 17.1 to 17.4.

  • rdw56

    I am not blaming it on the tax alone but I can tell you steel wasn’t big in Philly. It’s only common sense. If you can live in a city and pay $2,500 extra for the honor or move a mile away and put that in your pocket what do you do? Is that even remotely complicated? The city strangled itself when it instituted wage taxes. It takes a while but the damage was inevitable. I loved the city and still do. I am a 4 sport guy and get downtown often. There is no advantage to living in the city. BTW: one of the reasons downtown has done so well is an array of tax rebates that spurred a lot of condo construction much of which was older buildings restored from office or factory use sold to retired suburbanites who wanted to dump the big house and come back in for the city life. They don’t pay wages taxes.

    You all had to see the results of the census. New York is hemmoraging jobs and people to Texas. You really think that has nothing to do with the fact Texas doesn’t have an income tax?

  • 53_3

    We had just had a blizzard here three weeks ago, not nearly as bad as those places getting the worst, but we got 22″ in 24 hours which caused the same problem here.
    .
    It took the city/county two days to dig out, and luckily, we were not threatened with further snow, so no games were called.
    .
    It was a good call to cancel. I don’t know of any municipality that would be willing to put themselves in a position like that (not cancelling).
    .
    I think the potential for strain on the city’s emergency system probably prompted some discussion between the NFL and Philly.
    .
    The governor would probably not like the outcome if six inches of snow did fall, trapping some 70,000 to 80,000 fans…

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “You all had to see the results of the census. New York is hemmoraging jobs and people to Texas. You really think that has nothing to do with the fact Texas doesn’t have an income tax.”
    .
    You forgot.
    .
    Upstate New York (Red New York, not Blue New York) lost many people to Canada and other regions of the US).
    .
    New York City grew.

  • 53_3

    rdw:
    .
    The manufacturing sector was though. Big time heavy manufacturing, as well as light manufacturing which were all peripheral to the steel industries in the core of the rust belt have disappeared.
    .
    These industries grew because of the nearness of the supply of raw materials, and one mutually fed the other — a demand for steel kept them alive and the steel industries demand for ore kept the mining interests alive.
    .
    When S. Korea began dumping steel, the west coast was more in a position to garner manufacturing work (including Boeing here), due to the cheapness of the steel supply. The overage to ship to the Midwest killed off the Philly industries — not taxes.
    .
    It’s simple logistics…

  • squirmz

    I have something to add to rdw56′s initial statement.

    I had the not so fortunate experience of having to drive through Philly on Sunday afternoon. Returning to my home from the family christmas get together in the Adirondacks. The snowfall was really no joke. I’ve lived almost my whole life driving through blizzards when i have to. The problem wasn’t really with the amount of snowfall, it was the timing and quality of the snow. IT was wet, slick and slippery. It takes a certain amount of work and time for the road crews to get the roads in good shape for the type of vehicle that mostly travels on those roads. The percentage of drivers that feels comfortable on snow covered roads is also low. IT doesn’t matter how good and experienced a driver you are in snow conditions, if the guy in front of you has his blinkers on and is traveling 25 miles an hour on i-95. The snowfall also hit at exactly the right time to cause the most disruption.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “If you can live in a city and pay $2,500 extra for the honor or move a mile away and put that in your pocket what do you do?’
    .
    “They had a 4.95% residents wage tax and 4.3125% non-resident wage tax.”
    .
    Resident wage tax – non-resident wage tax = benefit of moving out of Philly.
    .
    4.95% – 4.3125% = 0.6375%
    .
    0.6375% of RDWs income = 2,500
    .
    0.6375%/0.6375% = 100% of RDW’s income.
    .
    $2,500/0.006375 = $392,156.863
    .
    Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn!
    .
    Whatever you do for a living rdw, you sure make enough money at it.
    .
    Either that or your $2,500 number is way off.

  • rdw56

    You are missing the forest for the trees. One moved out of the city, in my day, to save $2,500 a year. That’s a big incentive. Now it’s about $1,900 which is still an incentive but not quite as bad. What Rendel did that was more important than the small annual cut was to signal the town was serious about getting it’s fiscal house in order and was done raising taxes as they had been doing for decades. The signal is as important to employers as employees and the idea is to keep finding ways to drop the rate even if it’s tiny. It still compounds. My sense at the time the City was going to be a wreck.

    Rendel did more than cut wage tax rates. The privatizing was critical. The Eagles will play tonight in a state of the art football stadium they own and manage next to a state of the art baseball stadium they own and manage which is next to state of the art hockey/basketball/concert facility owned and operated by comcast. This center will remain as hey tear down the old but well maintained 17,000 seat spectrum to put in a hotel/retail complex to attract more sports fans to the area and give people a place to stay should they choose to come a day early or stay a day late for a game or show. When the city owned everything in the 80′s they were poorly managed sinkholes. The site might be the best in the USA. Each facility has parking they all share and access is convenient. The city went from running almost everything to just security and road maintenance and rather than lose money rake in tax receipts. The area is really nice and well maintained.

    It’s an example of what happened in center city, near all of the universities, the parks.etc. Less govt is better gov. The trust/tax laws are structured such that big companies such as Verizon and Comcast are more than willing to support cultural projects when the city promises cooperation on taxes and regulation. It’s win/win for everyone. I know of a huge job done recently putting a new roof on the Art Museum. A buddy is a roof inspector spent a year working on what is a 100-yr roof done entirely by private business financed by private donors. He once worked for the city inspecting roofs for city properties and said they were impossibly incompetent. This was done as a corporation would have done it.

  • 53_3

    I think it is jobs that drive people to move, for the most part.
    .
    The exflux of people from rural NY was due to lack of jobs, and job infrastructure.
    .
    The exflux of people from NY is correlative with the influx of people to TX, but has no causal link (I think I’m reiterating Patricks’ arguments here, but from a different — and statistical — direction).
    .
    There may be other drives causing influx to TX, too:
    1. Lower cost of living (not necessarily taxes)
    2. More jobs (also, not necessarily causal to taxation) due to location. I have a hunch that the job gains are highest in coastal areas and strategically located municipalities.
    3. Lower real extate costs.
    .
    All three, which favor TX at the moment, have even encouraged some of my relatives to want to move there. Not one mentioned taxes.

  • rdw56

    Upstate New York (Red New York, not Blue New York) lost many people to Canada and other regions of the US).
    .
    New York City grew.

    *************************************************

    I’m not quite sure what your point is. Big cities that work will grow when the general population grows. We all know about the job Rudy did to restore NYC as a magnet. The state however keeps losing population to other states and was the big loser this decade. I’m not sure why you cite red versus blue NY. Don’t they pay the same state tax? Work under the same regulations? Pay the same utilties?

    My point is that NYS is not competitive with other states especially Texas on a range of issues with taxation at the top of the list. The fact NYC did better than the est of the state doesn’t diminish my point in anyway.

  • rdw56

    Patrick,

    I move out of and worked out of the city. I went from paying 4.95% to 0%.

    The city lost people AND jobs.

  • liberalmeltdown

    3.3 thanks for the longest address url in history.

  • rdw56

    I think it is jobs that drive people to move, for the most part

    ******************************************************

    True but the tax rate matters. That’s why South jersey and the PA burbs have been booming since the 50′s. If you are an employer you will pay less in business taxes and less in your own income taxes if you live out of the city. If you have a choice you are not going to set up shop in the city. There are tons of advantages to being in the city but the value isn’t unlimited. All things equal if you don’t have to work in the city or live there you are going to choose to live in a lower cost area. If the differencial is small it won’t matter. Large matters. Just as I think we all agree 70% marginal tax rates are stupid so was a 4.9% wage tax in philly. Rendel got it. The move for 5 terms of Mayors now is to cut tax rates.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Rudy’s first two years coincided with a national drop in crime and when Clinton offered federal money to hire more cops.
    .
    When Rudy was mayor, NYC had 40,000 cops.
    .
    Now it’s down to 25,000 but crime remains low.
    .
    His other accomplishments were that he enforced old pan handling laws and, if it was below a particular temperature or above a very high temperature the homeless were required to be taken to shelters and fined stores and landlords if they didn’t keep the sidewalks both clean and, in the winter, free of snow.
    .
    After he left in 2002, the City continues to grow under Independent/RINO (and 40 year Democrat before 2001) billionaire Michael Bloomberg.
    .
    By NYC standards, Philly is a crime ridden sewer. We aren’t accustomed to that kind of a crime rate.
    .
    “I went from paying 4.95% to 0%.”
    .
    Oh.
    .
    New York City and New York State has “non-resident” taxes meaning anybody employed in NYC.
    .
    So, if you live in NYC and work here, you pay one tax to each (plus federal).
    .
    If you work in NYC but commute to Westchester or Long Island, you pay a non-resident city tax, and NYC state taxes.
    .
    If you commute to NYC and live in New Jersey, you pay non resident NYC and non-resident NYS taxes plus New Jersey taxes.
    .
    So, the fact that they don’t tax commuters to Philly is moronic. They should start taxing commuters who use the trains, buses, streets, etc.

  • 53_3

    No, rdw, taxes have little to do with it, unless they are extreme — and we do not have extreme taxation anywhere in the US.
    .
    As for your contention, South jersey happens to lie athwart one of the trade arteries across the Atlantic. The PA suburbs, as I’ve mentioned before, were peripheral to the core of the steel industries in what is now the rust belt.
    .
    The fact that these are located at the mouths of several rivers is a major indication that geoeconomic influences ruled the day – and not taxation.
    .
    A further blow:
    Taxation was much higher, bordering on the extreme in those days, and even in the face of tax reductions from the ’80s on, the economic fate of the Midwest continued to decline.
    .
    Look at where those people going to Texas went and you will find geoeconimic controls yet again rulng the roost…

  • 53_3

    should be …confluences of several rivers…

  • rdw56

    The overage to ship to the Midwest killed off the Philly industries — not taxes.

    ***********************************************

    You’d have a point if the rest of the state collapsed. It didn’t. While Philly had a difficult several decades the ring around philly exploded with developments and jobs.

    Also not manufacturing production wasn’t hit as hard as people think. Manufacturing employment was crushed and much of that was unions, regulations and taxes as well as unfair competition. While unions served a critical role in the beginning of the last century some point along the line they became the literal enemy of mgt. That’s never good. I worked for Bell of PA and the labor rules were ridiculous. They were designed to make each job harder to do so they’d need more people. It was shockingly unproductive. Up thru 1884 when everything was cost plus it was workable. We paid far to much for service but that was the business. Once they were deregulated the companies essentially started reducing headcount an average of 10% every few years and the business employees less than 60% of it’s former workers and the jobs lost were good paying installer, customer service, lineman, inside service, etc. In 1975 each city and town has a switching center manned by at least a dozen workers to maintain the switches. Philly had more than 35. They knew they had to eliminate these switches ans invested a fortune in digitalization. They could not support the headcount. Virtually all of these buildings have been sold as what once took up 3 floors takes a small box today. I know for a fact all of this investment was motivated by eliminating the heavy cost of a unionized workforce.

    The loss of those industry jobs was painful. But it was compounded by the fact these states are economically uncompetitive and they could not create jobs to replace them. Philly was known as high tax, inefficient, anti-business and corrupt. They lost jobs. King of Prussia gained them.

  • 53_3

    A hint that geoeconomics does rule:
    .
    1. Look at any given city
    2. Look at the rivers that run through it.
    .
    If there are navigable routes to the Great Lakes, you are likely looking at a city that has had considerable difficulties in the recent past economically. If, on the other hand, the navigable routes lead to the Atlantic, it is likely that that city has not been impacted as severly and is likely gaining in population.
    .
    It’s easy. Neither human migrations nor economic vitality map to taxation differences of any type…

  • pelhamite1

    there are, indeed, some functions that are best farmed out private entities and management of sports facilities, a true “optional” commnuity good, is probably one of them. Although I have to say, of all the metropolitan that have wasted ungodly sums of money on sports facilities, Philly seems to beat them all (that said, the old Vet was a concrete horror and I am glad it is gone).

    .

    But there are other functions – the inspections of roofs and buildings, say – which really are the responsibilitiy of government and cannot be outsourced – one can well imagine the ramifications of a regulatory agency that is out to make a profit for something like this involving public safety. (Actually Moody’s and the other ratings services provide an all too recent example of how poorly the private sector handles oversight).

    .

    Even though it must be a public function, in a any city one goes to, the Department of Buildings tends to be a nightmare. I have tried to get “Certitifcates of Occupancy” for buildings in the past (for my church, among others) and the process tries the patience of Job. One of these days, I’d like to run of them, just to find out what the problems are (one sneses there is more than one). So it could well be that your cousin had a point, even if that doesn’t justify eliminating regulation altogether.

  • freeinpa

    “freak, you constantly imply that people are mentally ill when they don’t think as you do. It’s getting old. And it is very insulting to those who actually suffer from a serious brain disorder.”
    .
    Not all just some who continually use name calling and insults and then squeal like little schools girls when treated in kind.
    .
    And by only addressing me in this shows what is getting old is liberals don’t like being treated as conservatives are here daily.
    .
    Suggestion for you show the same disdain for those on the left with their constant cheap shots and denigration of those on the right or just shut up about it. While you worry about me insulting those with mental disorders you seem to have no problem with conservatives being insulted. So spare me your high-minded attitude when your actions are any thing but…

  • freeinpa

    “Stay classy”
    It seems you and the other 2 stooges are quite free with advice that you feel no need to follow.

  • 53_3

    I might point out that in your arguments with Patrick, you keep pointing at correlative events, and not actual causal relationships between those events!

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Factors when locating a business:
    .
    Transportation costs to market (where goods are sold)
    .
    Transportation cost for resources/raw material.
    .
    Availability of labor/skill level of labor.
    .
    Land prices.
    .
    Taxes.
    .
    So, you’re not going to bake bagels to serve in Manhattan in Kansas.
    .
    Your not going to open a Pepsi bottling plant in Arizona where the McDonalds will charge you ten cents for a cup of water.
    .
    You aren’t going to open a Boeing plant in the middle of a place where the average education level is the 10th grade.
    .
    Of locations that meet the above standards, the competition amongst nearby towns is, yes, taxes.
    .
    What else cities can do:
    .
    Improve schools for better workforce to attract high skill jobs (which involves raising taxes).
    .
    Improve infrastructure such as roads or, sometimes, railroads (Chicago is the railroad capital of the US and the primary reason it became such a large city as the port of NY did a century earlier). (This, also, involves raising taxes).
    .
    Then, to attract people to live where they work, hire enough cops to keep crime down. (This, also, involves higher taxes).
    .
    If the city competing with yours can have good schools, good road and safe streets for a few thousand dollars less per year, then they win.
    .
    If they charge less tax but have awful schools, slow roads and unsafe streets, your city wins.

  • freeinpa

    It’s easy. Neither human migrations nor economic vitality map to taxation differences of any type.”
    .
    Abd by having liberals repeating this does not make it true, its just “liberal facts” which are not found in reality

  • rdw56

    taxes have little to do with it, unless they are extreme — and we do not have extreme taxation anywhere in the US.

    **************************************

    We’ll just have to disagee but you are being absurd. I lived in the Western section about 3 blocks from lower merion. I could live there or move 3 blocks and save $2,500 a year. Why on earth would I stay in the city? None of my friends stayed for this reason. I think 4.95% is extreme.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Yes 53_3 dumb luck of geography still rates as the top reason for where to live.
    .
    Although the Port of Manhattan has been closed for decades and taken over for by Brooklyn and NJ, Manhattan has a very distinctive characteristic: a natural port.
    .
    In the simplest terms (since my father, who designed ships did not teach me calculus 3 and so when sitting on his lap as a young child, I don’t really know better terminology myself) you were able to pull a ship right up to the shore without scraping the bottom. The water was a huge drop from the land – no beach. Most places need to be dredged for that and in the 1600s when NY was found, even Dutch dredging technology was weak and costly. That’s first and foremost why Manhattan is what is.

  • hippooath

    “It seems you and the other 2 stooges are quite free with advice that you feel no need to follow.”
    .
    Lead the way Moses. You – Mr. Clean wants to b!tch about how evil the liberals are after they respond to the usual liberals are insane rant.
    .
    As I said – I’ll take anything you say in advice when you get rid of the douche bag and stop whining about us horrible liberals telling you to frack off when you come here and p!ss on our shoes.
    .
    And thats another reason why you’re don’t have any integrity. You can’t even stand for your own selfprofessed moral highground. It’s a lot of WAH WAH liberals are mean to me, so take this you mentally insane liberal. But I’m sure you won’t get it.
    .
    So – stay classy!

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Freak,
    .
    This is urban economics.
    .
    Yesterday all biologists were liberals and all liberal were biologists.
    .
    Today all liberals have PhDs in Urban Economics and all people who have PhDs in Urban Economics are Liberal.
    .
    So, if I follow your demented reasoning, all liberals have PhDs in: Economics, History, Geology, Biology, Climatology, Medicine and, of course, are constitutional lawyers while conservatives have never finished junior high school but make ten million dollars a year.
    .
    Freak STFU.

  • pelhamite1

    If taxes drove managerial decisions, a lot of these manufacturuers would have moved to New Hampshire, which has no sales or income tax – and while New Hampshire isn’t doing all that badly, they hardly experienced an explosion of employment opportunities.

    .

    As noted above, buisness leaders will admit in their mopre unguraded moments that taxes have little to do with relocation decisions. Labor costs, and, yes, the presence of unions, are the oerwhelming factor and I guess we should admit that Texas is indeed winning the “Race to the bottom”. Big whup.

    .

    Along with all the ills that plague any industrial state, from New Jersey to Missouri, there are two that were specific to New york: in the city of Rochester, Kodak failed to anticipate the changeover todigitial photography (or at least, could not figure out how to exploit it) and, as a reslut, employment in Rochester cratered, taking a prosperous middle sized city with it. Much worse was Schenectedy – home of General Electric. In 1980, I visited it a few times and it was a reasonably thriving town; fifteen years later, under the “leadership” of the much-venerated Jack Welch, it was an urban wasteland. It was, and is, a classic example of the sacrifice of America’s industrial capacity and ability to employ its citizens for the sake of a few quarterly reports. It could be argued that Upsate’s greatest problem, the thing that killed it, was was the culture of greed and voraciousness that emanatred from the city at the mouth of the Hudosn River.

  • 53_3

    A beautiful example for intra-US migration patterns:
    http://www.forbes.com/2010/06/04/migration-moving-wealthy-interactive-counties-map.html
    .
    One tax map, by aconservative group:
    http://www.taxfoundation.org/UserFiles/Image/maps/top_income_tax_rates_display.jpg
    .
    I’ll let you do the work, freeinpa…

  • 53_3

    rdw:
    .
    Correlative is not causal!
    .
    And the second issue is that that applies just to you!

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “We’ll just have to disagee but you are being absurd. I lived in the Western section about 3 blocks from lower merion. I could live there or move 3 blocks and save $2,500 a year.”
    .
    Your net savings would be:
    .
    Lower Meion rent/morgage – Philly rent/mortgage + Philly taxes – (if applicable) extra transportation costs due to not having access to Philly train system.
    .
    The fact that Philly only taxes residents but NOT commuters to me is insane.
    .
    Commuters spend half of their year at work in that city and, therefore, should pay taxes to where they work.

  • rdw56

    Of course they’re causal. They’re both. I never considered living in Philly nor did any of my friends. This is specifically because of a 4.9% wage tax. I knew in College I wasn’t going to live in the city. If my father didn’t work for the city we would have moved out when I was 5.

    I’m not quite sure of your distinction here. For example Texas is creating jobs and attracting people while NYS is losing both. We’ve known for a while but the last census confirms low tax states grow faster than high tax states over time. There is thus a correlation between having no income tax versus a high income tax and economic growth. There is a correlation because taxes are causal. The correlation works at both ends. Texas is growing in a no income tax environment. NYS is shrinking in a high income tax environment.

    This is an example of ideology blocking the obvious. If you make $100K and can choose to live in the chestnut hill, a nice section, or a mile away in a burb, why on earth would you pay $5K to live in chestnut hill?

  • 53_3

    Next would be cost of living and real estate costs (Idon’t know which is a bigger factor).
    .
    Sorry to have butted in, but I wanted to approach this from an angle that most people aren’t aware of but now use all the time.
    .
    Geographic information systems.
    .
    rdw is right only as far as he is concerned. But when it comes to applying his personal experiences to the US as a whole, he runs up against a very extensive and mappable history.
    .
    I found that migration map above to be really, really interesting. It is one of the best applications of GIS I’ve seen in a while.

  • 53_3

    Ok, here’s what I’m trying to say:
    .
    1. One event occurs while the other occurs::correlative
    .
    Examples:
    “I never considered living in Philly nor did any of my friends. This is specifically because of a 4.9% wage tax.”
    .
    You can’t extrapolate your personal experiences and apply it to everyone else. Can you demonstrate that it isn’t job loss that caused the exflux?
    .
    “For example Texas is creating jobs and attracting people while NYS is losing both.”
    .
    The failure here is that since they occurred at the same time (correlative), that one caused the other. Click on the areas in Western NY on this map and find out for yourself:
    http://www.forbes.com/2010/06/04/migration-moving-wealthy-interactive-counties-map.html
    .
    Most, if any, exflux is heading preferentially to Florida and Arizona!
    .
    Patrick! Try it! You too will find that it is as solid as possible proof that NYers are not emigrating to Texas!

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    That’s a great link.
    .
    It has been a running joke for decades that New Yorkers (from the whole tri-state are) go to Florida to die. Follow the red lines and that is true.
    .
    Floridians, however, go to CA and WA among other places to go get a job.
    .
    For many cities, due to housing restrictions, the cheapest home in the city is an apartment and is cheaper than the cheapest home in the nearest suburb, which would be a house. So, cities attract the very richest who do not wish to waste a single extra moment commuting (time is money, as they say) and the poorest (who can only afford an apartment) as well as single people (until you have kids, you don’t even want a whole house – too much to clean up).

  • rdw56

    PA does tax commuters. That’s the lower rate, the non-residents tax. It’s now just under 3.5%. That’s why so many people like me moved out of the city and then transferred out as soon as I could.

  • 53_3

    I’ve the map the most interesting tool I’ve seen, so I’d like everyone who wants to to take a look at it.
    .
    This is from Forbes.com and the subject is where people are moving to:
    http://www.forbes.com/2010/06/04/migration-moving-wealthy-interactive-counties-map.html

  • 53_3

    When I saw how useful and clear it was, my jaw just dropped! And from Forbes.com, too.
    .
    How could any conservative argue with that? Certainly can’t claim that that is a liberal site, can they?

  • rdw56

    For many cities, due to housing restrictions, the cheapest home in the city is an apartment and is cheaper than the cheapest home in the nearest suburb, which would be a house

    ************************************************

    Really? NY still has rent control which creates tons of distortions but I assumed most cites had a variety to housing. Philly is known for it’s row housing but still had tons of single family homes, twins, etc. Much of the older housing stock in North philly, and a fair amount in West and south philly has been razed for commercial or apartments but it’s a slow process. A friend of mine a few years back after living in Manhatten for 20 years decided to buy and quickly found he was getting little more than a closet. A bit of snob he was determined to live in Manhatten. somehow he cam across a condo just oustide Manhatten to the North and he’d get 3x’s the Sq ft for $100K less. He swallowed his pride

  • 53_3

    rdw:
    .
    Go to that map and see for yourself. Click on Philly.
    .
    I clicked on Manhatten, and other than Dallas, NYers seem to preferentially* avoid Texas!!
    .
    I’m claiming only correlative, not a causal relationship, thus the phrase “seem to” preceding the word “preferentially”!

  • 53_3

    click on manhatten, rdw…

  • 53_3

    FYI, it supports your implied claim that housing costs can drive migration, but really has nothing to do with taxation at all…

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “PA does tax commuters. That’s the lower rate, the non-residents tax.”
    .
    Okay then.
    .
    For many professions, there are a limited number of employers. So, if most of or all of the jobs in, say, Naval Architecture/Marine engineering (a non-military job despite how it sounds) are in the city of Philly and, since one has many reasons to stay at the same job, then the gain from moving out of the city borders are not as you said “17.12

    Patrick,

    I move out of and worked out of the city. I went from paying 4.95% to 0%.”
    .
    They are, as I said, “4.95% – 4.3125% = 0.6375%”
    .
    So, at, say, $125k/year = $125,000 X 0.0063575 = $794.69/year or $66.22/week.
    .
    More than nothing, but not a huge amount.
    .
    Maybe if you are a cook, a salesman or something else with very general skills you can switch from town to town and from city to suburban work without leaving your industry, but many jobs don’t work that way.

  • 53_3

    I’m in agreement with agreeing to disagree. I don’t have a problem with that at all.
    .
    I might point out that a three block move to avoid that taxation might be a better cost/benefit for you* than moving say, 200 miles. In your case (and I might even do it too for just 3 blocks), it seems a plausible reason.
    .
    *I emphasize you and do not extrapolate your experiences to others. The map that I found clearly shows that your contention that taxation is the reason has no support whatsoever…

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “You too will find that it is as solid as possible proof that NYers are not emigrating to Texas!”
    .
    I saw that.
    .
    New Yorkers going to the South (and Texas) or Texans coming to New York is not very common. It’s all a little bit like that movie “My Cousin Vinny.”
    .
    “Whyyyyy, sir, what’s Yoot?”
    .
    (If You don’t remember, that was a memorable line.)
    .
    New York’s City Council, unfortunately, right before the Civil War, due to the cotton trade, voted to support the confederacy. It was, of course over ruled by the State of New York and the two regions have not had close ties since then.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “NY still has rent control which creates tons of distortions but I assumed most cites had a variety to housing.”
    .
    You’re wrong.
    .
    I’m a realtor.
    .
    I may specialize in commercial but, our license covers both.
    .
    Rent control was replaced with rent stabilization. With rent stabilization a board citywide limits the amount a landlord for the same tenant may raise the rent on the following year’s lease. But, that does not apply to luxury rentals with rents above, I believe, $4,000 per month (maybe not $4k, maybe more or maybe less).
    .
    I could brag to you about how much I love my neighborhood in Queens, 10 minutes by LIRR from Penn Station and 35 minutes by subway from Midtown where I pay $954 per month for a one bedroom.
    .
    Rent control, as it used to be, was stopped about fifteen years ago by Rudy.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Oooops.
    .
    see 23.1

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “A bit of snob he was determined to live in Manhatten. somehow he cam across a condo just oustide Manhatten to the North and he’d get 3x’s the Sq ft for $100K less.”
    .
    North of Manhattan is the South Bronx.
    .
    I think you mean Northern Manhattan with Harlem (being restored to it’s 1920 heyday as the black 5th avenue – with a new, significant white minority) or Washington Heights or Inwood, in the far upper tip of Manhattan.
    .
    The South Bronx is, still, a little sketchy and doesn’t have the Manhattan feel to it at all.

  • 53_3

    If we were to completely avoid “distortions”, sensu stricto rdw’s explanation, then our rural communities would be dirt poor.
    .
    pelhamites1 at 19.7 is an interesting take on that…

  • westender3

    Effeminate, metrosexual sissies dependent on govt and whining about everything is what is desired
    .
    I read comments like this and I think of this,pink tie and little girl crocodile tears.


    .
    What am I not getting here?

  • westender3

    Sorry,bad linky.

  • hippooath

    I’m all for men crying. Nothing wrong about it. But there’s a time and place for it. And this guy just don’t know when to make the emotional point to do it.
    .
    But I like when he cried last – thinking back on his American dream while telling unemployed to go screw themselves.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Freakinpa,
    .
    You missed.
    .

    .
    That was about four blocks from me yesterday.
    .
    By the time I saw it, it looked like this:
    .
    http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa351/PatrickSartor/Pictures%20of%20Queens%20NY/053.jpg

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Check out 1:46.
    .
    I was four blocks away but my building shook a little bit.
    .
    No injuries at all.

  • rdw56

    Any form of rent control by definition distorts the market.

  • rdw56

    I never suggest taxes were a sole factor. I’ve said a dozen times, all things equal if you live in an area like Philly which had a 4.9% residents wage tax at the time I started making money and you can live outside the city just as well as inside you move outside the city. It’s a no brainer. We have 4 decades of outward migration to prove it. Further if you already live outside the city you’ll 1st look for work outside the city. Employers noticed and also moved outside the city.

    There is a level of wage taxes people would accept as long as living in the city provided some advantage and for some the urban environment is enough. Rendels genius was in understanding the fact 4.9% was chasing people away and killing the tax base. They have it down below 4% and my understanding when the economy gets stronger will continue to lower it incrementally each year.

    As far as your forbes map it’s only showing one way map it’s incomplete. The only complete picture we have is the census. That’s clear and unambiguous. High tax states are losing, low tax states are gaining. Taxes don’t have to be the #1 driver to be insidious.

    In fact look for one of the huge battles in the next year to be the funding of private sector unions in large blue states with growing liabilities and shrinking tax bases. CA, IL, MI and NY have daunting debt and I can promise you the fiscally responsible states will not bail them out. CAs problems will be solved by CA. NYs by NYers.

  • rdw56

    We’ll never avoid all distortions. The idea so to minimize them. One of the upcoming debates where it appears Obama is ready to embrace his inner Reagan is on simplifying the tax code. Reagans idea was never to cut taxes paid but to cut the marginal rates to restore the incentives and work and invest and to eliminate the tax code which is by definition an attempt by govt to pick the winners and losers. The USSR and Cuba show us what a disaster that can be. The 1986 tax bill which lowered the marginal rates to 28% was designed to be revenue neutral.

  • rdw56

    *I emphasize you and do not extrapolate your experiences to others. The map that I found clearly shows that your contention that taxation is the reason has no support whatsoever…

    *************************************

    You map shows nothing of the sort. If you click on NYS you can see major migrations to Arizona, SC, NC and FL. That’s warm weather and low taxes.

    My life is typical of all high tax northern cities like Philly, Detroit, Cleveland, etc. The period you need to focus on are the 60′s thru the 90′s when the outward migration was at it’s peak. In the phila metropolitan area about 1950 more than 50% of the citizens within 25 miles of city hall lived inside philly, much more. today it’s less than 20%.

  • 53_3

    No, rdw, those are retirement meccas

  • 53_3

    rdw:
    .
    If taxes were the primary driver, then Texas would have not been nearly exclusively avoided by migrating NYers!.
    .
    Something else is the primary driver, as the lowest tax rates are in Texas…

  • ricardo4max

    I am always entertained to see the neocommies hurl personal insults and ad hominem attacks in response to rational intelligent observations and deductions. And the frequent inclusion of sexual perversion in these attacks is not surprising. Liberalism is based on emotion rather than logic and reason and therefore is the popular political belief of the immature and arrested development crowd.
    Happy New Year Neocommies. I can’t wait for the whining and squealing to crank up another notch.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “I am always entertained to see the neocommies hurl personal insults and ad hominem attacks in response to rational intelligent observations…”
    .
    Great irony.
    .
    BTW: I don’t know many details, but, if you are gay, there are a few neighborhoods of NYC you’d much rather be than where you are in Florida so that you won’t be so, obviously unhappy all of the time. Here, among other places, it is deception people find more strange and unpleasant than even homosexuality because your homosexuality, unlike your deception, doesn’t involve bothering me.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Any form of rent control by definition distorts the market.”
    .
    In this case it motivates landlords to place as many apartments under the listing as their own residence or residence of relatives as possible during down markets to save it up for a peak market.
    .
    Yes, it does make prices higher, but, it, also, keeps renters living in the same place for years.
    .
    One of my neighbors has been in this building for about 50 years. Some market distortion can be acceptable when the gains as sense of community.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “I’ve said a dozen times, all things equal if you live in an area like Philly which had a 4.9% residents wage tax at the time I started making money and you can live outside the city just as well as inside you move outside the city.”
    .
    If the jobs still existed in the city, choosing to move would save you a pathetic $300 per year or so at $50,000 per year or less than $6 per week.
    .
    The reason for placing things in the suburbs, include things like the fact that Philly’s crime rate is worse than NYC was at the hell hole time of the late 1980s, terrible schools which do not produce good worker and, most likely, traffic jams not facilitated by better public transit.
    .
    If your buddy Rudy were in Philly, he would be running up and down the streets screaming about the crime problem since it is so much worse than NYC had.
    .
    As 53 pointed out, industrial work left the US. Both heavy and light industry do better in cities than in suburbia. If heavy industry never left, then Philly would have been able to continue tax rates significantly higher than they ever were and still thrive.

blog comments powered by Disqus