Senate Shatters DREAM

A last-gasp effort to pass an immigration bill that has long languished in Congress failed Saturday morning, with Democrats failing to muster the 60 votes required to bring the DREAM Act to the floor for a final vote.

The push to resuscitate the bill, which would have created a path to citizenship for young illegal immigrants who met specific requirements, was not expected to pass amid heated opposition from Republicans and some centrist Democrats, who cast DREAM (the acronym stands for the Development, Relief and Education of Alien Minors Act) as an amnesty plan.

“You won’t get many chances in the United States Senate, over the course of your career, to face clear votes on the issue of justice,” Sen. Dick Durbin of Illinois, one of the bill’s champions, implored his colleagues before the vote. As expected, his argument failed to sway detractors. The 55-41 vote in favor of ending debate — five votes short of the threshold needed to bring the measure to the floor — split largely along party lines. Just three Republicans supported the bill: Senators Richard Lugar of Indiana, Lisa Murkowski of Alaska and Bob Bennett of Utah, who is retiring. Five Democrats voted against it: Max Baucus and Jon Tester of Montana, Kay Hagan of North Carolina, Ben Nelson of Nebraska and Mark Pryor of Arkansas.

With the GOP set to take over the House next month, today’s cloture vote effectively erases any chance of moving the bill over the next two years, let alone sweeping immigration reform that would address the status of the nation’s estimated 11 million undocumented immigrants. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid’s decision to press forward with time running out in the lame-duck session galvanized proponents of the bill, who bombarded wavering lawmakers with phone calls, rallied repeatedly and in some cases traveled to Washington to signal their support for the bill, which they say would shore up military recruitment and the economy in addition to sending more immigrants to college.

President Obama called the vote “incredibly disappointing.” “It is not only the right thing to do for talented young people who seek to serve a country they know as their own, it is the right thing for the United States of America. Our nation is enriched by their talents and would benefit from the success of their efforts,” Obama said in a statement Saturday, which noted that Congressional Budget Office has projected that DREAM Act would slice $2.2 billion from the federal deficit over the next decade.

Republicans said the measure amounted to a reward for illegal activity. “If we pass this amnesty, we will signal to the world that we’re not serious about the enforcement of our laws or our borders,” argued Sen. Jeff Sessions of Alabama. By scuttling a final vote, the GOP won a political victory, but lining up against the bill could also boomerang on them in 2012, when they’ll want to court Hispanic votes. Alienating the fastest-growing minority in the U.S. won’t help them wrest away the presidency.

Related Topics: Congress, Immigration, Uncategorized
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  • carotexas1

    Alex how many Republicans voted against the Dream Act?
    Kudos to Jay for her Twiiter that Republicans blocked it.

  • grape_crush

    The 55-41 vote in favor of the bill…effectively erases any chance of moving the bill.

    That never is gonna sound right.

  • freeinpa

    “”You won’t get many chances in the United States Senate, over the course of your career, to face clear votes on the issue of justice,”
    .
    The truly pathetic part is liberals think that rewarding illegal activity is one of them!

  • liberalmeltdown

    Where exactly are we when our lawmakers propose a bill that rewards people that break our laws, aren’t citizens, and want special treatment over United States citizens?
    .
    Meanwhile these same lawmakers pass bills containing thousands of pages with restrictions, fines, penalties, Taxes, and imprisonment aimed at Legal Citizens.
    .
    It’s the fundamentally changed (for the worse) America.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Would I qualify?

    The following is a list of specific requirements one would need in order to qualify for the current version of the DREAM Act.

    * Must have entered the United States before the age of 16 (i.e. 15 and younger)
    * Must have been present in the United States for at least five (5) consecutive years prior to enactment of the bill
    * Must have graduated from a United States high school, or have obtained a GED, or have been accepted into an institution of higher education (i.e. college/university)
    * Must be between the ages of 12 and 35 at the time of application
    * Must have good moral character”
    .
    One must be under 16 years old when their parents crossed the borders.
    .
    So, these are law abiding children of undocumented workers, not the ones who stayed or worked illegally.
    .
    Reagan had the plan which allowed the people themselves, not their children, to receive citizenship.
    .
    “An estimated 3 million illegal immigrants received amnesty under Reagan’s program. A May 26, 2006 New York Times article arrives at the figure 2.8 million: 1.7 million under a general amnesty plus 90% of the 1.3 million that applied under a special program for agricultural workers.”
    .
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Reform_and_Control_Act_of_1986#Legislative_background_and_description
    .
    What I consider far worse than allowing the lawful sons and daughters of people who stay in America illegally is that Swampland allows people who have no honor and welsh on bets like you to post.
    .
    That is far worse than if my burger if fried by somebody who lacks the paperwork.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Psychiatric meltdown,
    .
    Where was your rage when the Messiah, Ronald Reagan allowed the actual immigrants to become citizens rather than their sons and daughters?
    .
    “Meanwhile these same lawmakers pass bills containing thousands of pages with restrictions, fines, penalties, Taxes, and imprisonment aimed at Legal Citizens.”
    .
    You mean that you can’t continue to give out mortgages to people who can’t afford it anymore or what are these fines restrictions or imprisonment things you are talking about?

  • apr2563

    Maybe all those “illegals” that are fighting in Afganistan and Iraq for the “homeland” will continue to fight for your a$$es freeper and liberalmeltdown. If they do, it will be because they are more the definition of responsible citizens than you.

  • freeinpa

    “What I consider far worse than allowing the lawful sons and daughters of people who stay in America illegally is that Swampland allows people who have no honor and welsh on bets like you to post.”
    .
    Proving once again liberals will make enormous deals of nothing but excused criminals without blinking an eye.

    Proving most of all you remain an idiot!

  • Alex Altman

    No. I’ve clarified, thanks.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    You have no honor.
    .
    You’ve proven that you’ll break rules when they don’t fit you and then you wag your finger at people who overstay tourist and student visas to work and take better care of their children.
    .
    Once again, please do explain which is worse for you and why?
    .
    A person cooking your food behind the lunch counter is here illegally.
    .
    A person double parks blocking your car in at the restaurant.
    .
    How is the person without documentation worse than the a-hole double parking?
    .
    You drive away from the diner, get your car washed.
    .
    Several of the car washers are not here legally.
    .
    You drive out and are smashed into by somebody going through a red light.
    .
    How is the illegal immigrant worse than the person going through the red light?
    .
    You go to the emergency room.
    .
    One of the nurses is an illegal immigrant who’s visa expired two months ago.
    .
    The ambulance driver stole your wallet and credit cards.
    .
    Why would illegal immigration be worse than the a-hole who steals your wallet?
    .
    So, as a man who does not keep his word yourself, please do tell me why illegal immigration is worse than even illegal parking?
    .
    Neither the law nor I say that these laws never get enforced. I just say that meter maids are a higher priority than ICE.

  • freeinpa

    Oh I’m sorry, are they not fighting for your dumb a$$? Besides I thought it was not a “valid” war according to the left. Seems you are arguing out of both sides of your mouth or more likely another orifice.
    .
    And so if they are criminals and fight in a war your don;t approve that makes them righteous citizens in your mind! The mind of a liberals is scarier than any form of torture.

  • Paul-no not that one

    Bad people dumping on good people.
    .
    US 2010

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Once again, Freakinpa not only does not know his geography.
    .
    Afghanistan and Iraq are not the same place.
    .
    Democrats stand one Afghanistan: Strong support. Needed to prevent future terrorist attacks.
    .
    Democrats stand on Iraq: since Republican GWB broke it, we have to fix it.
    .
    “And so if they are criminals…” the law calls it a class C misdemeanor.
    .
    I think it is as harmless as double parking.
    .
    So, as far as I am concerned, if we ban all people who’s PARENTS came here illegally, then, definitely we should ban anybody who’s PARENTS got a parking ticket, or a moving violation.

  • http://rob222.wordpress.com rob222

    “Alienating the fastest-growing minority in the U.S. won’t help them wrest away the presidency.” The only reason this minority is growing is because of all of the illegals. Take care of illegal immigration and cut down on the number of illegal immigrants allowed and that problem will be solved. Thanks to the Republican Party in the Senate for Standing up for American Citizens. Time to party!

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Freakinpa – the man without honor – why don’t you show us that you are so wise and please respond to 3.3 for your argument that illegal immigration is such horrible crime.

  • http://rob222.wordpress.com rob222

    Correction….cut down on the number of legal immigrants, we need to quit artificially growing our population and start caring about the environment…go green!

  • Cliff

    How long until Newt Gingrich tries to launch another outreach program to Latinos?

  • Paul-no not that one

    “Take care of illegal immigration and cut down on the number of illegal immigrants allowed and that problem will be solved.”
    .
    What do you see as “that problem”? That they are the fastest growing minority in the US? Or that republicans keep alienating them?

  • freeinpa

    “Where was your rage when the Messiah”
    .
    Once again you speak of something you know nothing about but then you always do. You have mistaken someone calling you psychic– it was psychotic
    .
    “So, as far as I am concerned, if we ban all people who’s PARENTS came here illegally, then, definitely we should ban anybody who’s PARENTS got a parking ticket, or a moving violation”
    .
    Yes less compare the economic cost of parking tickets to the costs of illegals immigrants. You moral equivalence is as idiotic in this as any other subject—the Rev Jim lives on!

  • freeinpa

    “Bad people dumping on good people”
    .
    Yes liberals dumping on conservatives an age old sport that they can’t win any longer

  • freeinpa

    Rev Jim the man without the sense God gave lice, I need no justification to someone whose every breath is a lie- the heart of liberalism

  • freeinpa

    More ‘liberals facts” from the burden to society the Rev Jim.

    Did not the messiah run on closing Gitmo and withdrawing ALL troops. But in the end he followed Bush’s strategy showing that a liberal will always need the help of conservatives to fight any war and that liberals lie as a matter of everyday life.

  • freeinpa

    “How is the person without documentation worse than the a-hole double parking?”
    .
    Well one usually gets a parking ticket and pays a fine, the other gets the an ATM card to the American Treasury
    .
    And I am sure you can come up with other heart wrentching stories but I notice how you leave out the drug dealers, murders, drunken drivers and those who because they are allowed to be here illegally are allowed to commit multiple felonies. Of course you will give the typical lame “but its only a few”. Tell that to the families that suffer the loss of members of their families from your wonderful gesture.
    .
    “Neither the law nor I say that these laws never get enforced. I just say that meter maids are a higher priority than ICE.”
    .
    And that’s why you are an idiot and a loser, just like liberalism.

  • freeinpa

    Just to show the bankruptcy of liberalism it will be a bigger crime not to have HC insurance under ObamaCare than it will be to be an illegal immigrant.
    .

    That must be that nuanced intelligence liberals keep telling us they have Just another one of their lies.

  • http://jv42.wordpress.com jv42

    The way I see this, and to post an old argument. Unless you are of Native American descent then you have no right to oppose this issue. The hypocrisy is amazing. This country was found by what you would call ‘illegal’ immigrants.

  • apr2563

    freeper: Most people find your whining, paranoid, pity party unattractive.

  • grape_crush

    No clarification was necessary, Alex. It was more of a comment on how messed up the Senate rules are.

  • Paul-no not that one

    Whatever you are, it isn’t conservative.

  • freeinpa

    “Most people find your whining, paranoid, pity party unattractive.”
    .
    By most people you mean left wing extremists. Since “most people” actually makes up a tiny part pf the population part a large majority of the noise pollution in everyday discourse. I can live with that

    And I see you returned true to form for a liberal since liberals at the heart of it a intellectually bankrupt just then try to denigrate the right. What fries your shorts is tat the right won’t be silenced by the nonsense of the left. Learn to live with disappointment

  • freeinpa

    “The way I see this, and to post an old argument. Unless you are of Native American descent then you have no right to oppose this issue.”
    .
    The arguments get sillier.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Well one usually gets a parking ticket and pays a fine, the other gets the an ATM card to the American Treasury.”
    .
    “Well one usually gets a parking ticket and pays a fine…” The illegal immigrant spends months in lockup and then sent back home.
    .
    The one who drove through the red light… “…the other gets the an ATM card to the American Treasury.”
    .
    No, that makes no sense.
    .
    The one who steals your wallet, “…the other gets the an ATM card to the American Treasury.”
    .
    That still makes no sense. He uses your debit card until you report it stolen, spends all of your cash and steals your identity.
    .
    “And I am sure you can come up with other heart wrentching stories but I notice how you leave out the drug dealers, murders, drunken drivers…”
    .
    Sorry, you’re completely correct in bringing up that drug dealers, murderers, drug dealers are all worse than washing the dishes, working a a car wash or being a nurse at an ER when you are not here legally.
    .
    Then you go on to say something totally insane:
    .
    “…those who because they are allowed to be here illegally are allowed to commit multiple felonies.”
    .
    So, you are saying that undocumented workers have the super power to become physically invisible so that they can not get caught for these crimes?
    .
    They commit these crimes less often than Americans do, so, only a pure moron would say that overstaying a visa makes somebody suddenly feel the desire to murder people.
    .
    I never in the least said anything other than being here illegally is worse than parking illegally. I never said that being murdered is less of an inconvenience than having your car blocked in. So, I have no idea how Chrystal meth has rotted your brain so badly that you can’t understand a simple statement.
    .
    Freakinpa, drugs kill. Please use more.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Just to show the bankruptcy of liberalism it will be a bigger crime not to have HC insurance under ObamaCare than it will be to be an illegal immigrant.”
    .
    Well, let’s see:
    .
    Illegal immigration:
    .
    “There are civil and criminal penalties for hiring illegal aliens. Sec. 274A of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) and 8 U.S.C. 1324a, makes it unlawful for any person knowingly to hire, recruit or refer for a fee any alien not authorized to work. An employer that violates these laws can face penalties of:

    · $250 to $2,000 fine for each unauthorized individual;

    · $2,000 to $5,000 for each employee if the employer has previously been in violation; or

    · $3,000 to $10,000 for each individual if the employer was subject to more than one cease and desist order.

    The employer could also be fined $100 to $1,000 for each individual “paperwork” violation.

    The criminal penalties for a pattern and practice violation can be up to $3,000 for each unauthorized alien, imprisonment up to six months, or both. ”
    .
    http://www.nvo.com/beaulier/penaltiesforemployingundocumentedworkers/
    .
    The immigrant is removed from their home and transported against their will to their country of origin.
    .
    “The letter attached to our reader’s question was written by Thomas Barthold, chief of staff of the House Joint Committee on Taxation, to Rep. Dave Camp of Michigan, on the subject of enforcing the individual health insurance mandate of H.R. 3962, the House-passed bill. That mandate requires people to have health insurance, unless they are below a certain income threshold ($9,350 for singles, $18,700 for couples in 2009). Those who don’t get coverage will be subject to a tax of 2.5 percent of their adjusted income beyond that threshold, up to the cost of the average national premium.

    The letter from the JCT includes a list of civil and criminal penalties. These aren’t penalties for not buying insurance, however. They’re penalties for refusing to pay the resulting tax. Barthold’s letter says:”
    .
    http://www.factcheck.org/2009/11/imprisoned-for-not-having-health-care/
    .
    You’ll only pay $10,000 in tax if $10,000 is 2.5% of your income or $400,000 per year.
    .
    The criminal penalty for not buying health insurance: 0 days in jail. 0 day of probation. You do not have any criminal prosecution.
    .
    Sorry, freak in pa foiled by facts again.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Yes less compare the economic cost of parking tickets to the costs of illegals immigrants.”
    .
    “The Benefits of Illegal Immigration
    Taxes, Consumption, and Labor Dynamism

    Jul 14, 2009 Andre Tartar

    A sensible debate over illegal immigration requires that the costs and benefits be clearly understood. Here are some numbers for the taxes and spending that benefit us.

    Illegal immigrants do bring benefits as well as costs to the U.S. economy. The economic benefits of illegal immigration are two-fold: taxes and spending.
    Taxes

    The Social Security Administration believes that about half of unauthorized immigrants pay Social Security Taxes. A 2005 New York Times piece reported that over 9 million W-2 wage forms with incorrect or false Social Security Numbers were turned into the government in 2002, a reasonable benchmark for the number of undocumented workers. These represented some $56 billion dollars in earnings, $6 billion in Social Security taxes and $1.5 billion for Medicare.

    Naturally, the exact tax numbers for illegal immigrants are hard to establish, but at least it is clear they are paying into the system.

    Medicare.

    Naturally, the exact tax numbers for illegal immigrants are hard to establish, but at least it is clear they are paying into the system.
    Consumption

    Something else that many opponents of illegal immigration forget or choose to ignore is the consumer power of this group. UCLA’s Raul Hinojosa is quoted in BusinessWeek estimating that “the total goods and services they consume … plus all they produce for their employers, is close to about $800 billion.”

    Some argue that much of what illegal immigrants make doesn’t benefit the U.S. economy because it is sent back to their families in Mexico and other countries in the form of remittances. Even considering the $42 billion that the World Bank says left the United States (in 2006) as remittances, that is only about 10% of illegal immigrants’ wages, says Hinojosa. That leaves about $400-450 billion of that is consumptive capacity staying in the U.S.”
    .

    Read more at Suite101: The Benefits of Illegal Immigration: Taxes, Consumption, and Labor Dynamism http://www.suite101.com/content/illegal-immigration-by-the-numbers-part-2-a132049#ixzz18VZowRe7
    .
    Yes, you are correct.
    .
    Illegal immigrants add to GDP while illegal parking does not.
    .
    Illegal parking, by economics, is far, far worse than being an illegal immigrant, so, we should ban the children of illegal parkers from joining the armed forces, too by your standard.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Once again you speak of something you know nothing about but then you always do. You have mistaken someone calling you psychic– it was psychotic”
    .
    The “you” I guess is your angry address to meltdown since it was I who called meltdown psychiatric meltdown.
    .
    Either that or being high on crank all of the time makes you hallucinate.
    .
    (If I am not mistaken, meth, aka crank makes people stay awake for days on end and that is why they hallucinate, I’ll have to look that up to be sure.)

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “What fries your shorts is tat the right won’t be silenced by the nonsense of the left. Learn to live with disappointment.”
    .
    I’m happy to debate reasonable people like libertarian Sasquatch and conservative Exiled at home. What is offensive to me is that you welsh on bets.
    .
    Welshing on a bet for $0 you can not claim poverty for, so, you have no excuse other than poor moral character.

  • http://jv42.wordpress.com jv42

    Why do you choose to highlight only a portion of my argument?

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Did not the messiah run on closing Gitmo and withdrawing ALL troops. But in the end he followed Bush’s strategy showing that a liberal will always need the help of conservatives to fight any war and that liberals lie as a matter of everyday life.”
    .
    Ronald Reagan was already dead by the time Gitmo opened, so, you must be having another mental breakdown.
    .
    If you meant Obama, he did cave into conservatives and not close Gitmo.
    .
    ” But in the end he followed Bush’s strategy..”
    .
    We’re already pulling troops out of Iraq:
    .
    “The last American combat troops left Iraq today, seven-and-a-half years after the US-led invasion, and two weeks ahead of President Barack Obama’s 31 August deadline for withdrawal from the country.

    “The final troops to leave, 4th Stryker Brigade, 2nd Infantry Division, rolled in convoy across the border and into Kuwait this morning, officially ending combat operations, which began in March 2003…”
    .
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/aug/19/iraq-last-combat-troops-leave
    .
    “McCain: 100 years in Iraq “would be fine with me” ”
    .

    .
    Sorry, the Bush strategy was 100 years and Obama got our combat troops out already and the year is not 2104.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “I need no justification to someone whose every breath is a lie- the heart of liberalism.”
    .
    If you look above, you are the one filled with lies about people allowing drunken drivers and drug dealers to go without punishment, that you go to jail for not getting health insurance and that Obama adopted the Bush 100 years in Iraq strategy.
    .
    In other words, you are the moral level of a dead slug, so, you don’t care who reminds you of this. You are proud of your immorality and lies.
    .
    In that case, you don’t mind how many times a day I will remind you.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Why do you choose to highlight only a portion of my argument?”
    .
    Because if he had to debate a real point he would look even more like a deranged meth head.

  • hopiex1

    I am Latino and I REALLY resent stupid journalists and even stupider politicians indicating that if one is Latino (or Hispanic) one’s absolute top priority is immigration when it comes to voting for the politician of your choice. Latinos WILL NOT AUTOMATICALLY vote for a politican just because they are pro-amnesty. It’s people like them who give the impression that Latinos are racist. We are not. I, for one, vote for the person who is going to make MY life easier.

  • http://jv42.wordpress.com jv42

    I’m Latino too, and I think what he meant was that as a whole, the Latino population supports the Dream Act. Therefore in going against it, you will disenfranchise a large portion of constituency. If you want the majority of the wealthy vote, for example, you will vote for the Bush tax cuts. Granted, for many that isn’t the deciding factor, but for most it may be.

  • hattusilas

    “The only reason this minority is growing is because of all of the illegals.”
     
    False. Most Latinos are here legally. The numbers of Latino citizens are also on the increase.
     
    You know what, many if not most Latinos who are here legally don’t support uncontrolled immigration. What drives them away from the GOP is its emphasis on profiling, Arizona- (and Soviet-) style internal passport laws, and racist rhetoric. It’s actually the GOP’s big business allies that imported low-paid illegal labor by the thousands to break the unions, and it’s affluent suburbanites from GOP strongholds like Orange County, CA, who illegally employ household help. Amazing how illegal employers don’t get demonized, because, hey, never criticize an ally, right?
     
    So, do you support the other Arizona measure from 2007 that revokes the license of any business caught employing illegals on the second offense? I do.

  • 3xfire3

    Patrick,
    .
    “I’m happy to debate reasonable people like libertarian Sasquatch and conservative Exiled at home. What is offensive to me is that you welsh on bets.”
    .
    Every time you’re losing an argument to freeinpa you start stuttering “but you welshed on the bbbet”.
    .
    Maybe if you could ever show the intellect to win a debate, you would not have to use this feeble excuse.

  • 3xfire3

    hopiex1 and ju42,
    .
    I am not Hispanic. I live in a small city [17,000] in Ohio. About 15% of our citizens are 2nd and 3rd generation Hispanic. Two of my grandchildren are Hispanic.
    .
    Almost all the Hispanics in my town are middle class or above. They are fully integrated into our community and consider themselves Americans first. Latin America is the home of their ancestors.
    .
    I think the Lefts efforts to claim all Hispanics are of one mind is totally wrong. In our community some Hispanic are Democrats and some are Republicans
    .
    Our Hispanic citizens have added much to our local culture and are best friends with my wife and I and our children and our grandchildren. They are some of the best people I know.
    .
    When my ancestors immigrated to America from Switzerland, they became Democrats. After a couple generations my family is now mostly Republicans. To think that Hispanics will fall in line and just be good Democrats boarders on being wishful thinking.
    .
    Hispanics that are legally in this country are wonderful citizens who add a lot of positive qualities to our country. They are family oriented, honest, religious and caring people.
    .
    Their values are a lot more like mine that the liberals who post on the Swamp.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Maybe if you could ever show the intellect to win a debate, you would not have to use this feeble excuse.”
    .
    Look above.
    .
    Freeinpa states that the “Criminal” punishment for going without health insurance is greater than being caught for being an illegal immigrant.
    .
    With the criminal punishment being 0 days in jail, 0 days of probation, 0 hours of community service and – for a criminal fine – $0 while illegal immigrants are forcefully deported, this is wrong.
    .
    I then brought in comparing the tax of 2.5% and included that. It is, also, far less.
    .
    So, please take over for your cohort in conservatism and tell me how 0 days in jail, 0 days of probation and 0 hours of community service are worse than being deported to another country unless, of course, I both, by any reasonable standard, beat him at the debate and reminded him that he has no honor.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “I think the Lefts efforts to claim all Hispanics are of one mind is totally wrong….Their values are a lot more like mine that the liberals who post on the Swamp.”
    .
    3X,
    .
    Which is it?
    .
    Are they not all of one mind or are they all of one mind in being more like you than the Swamp?
    .
    I, myself, have never declared that any ethnic or demographic group is all of one mind, but, for some issues it is significantly more than 50% who feel one way or another such as gays wanting gay rights for marriage, gay rights to serve in the military and the wealthiest far more likely to want a tax break for the wealthiest and immigrants supporting immigration.
    .
    So, please tell me how they are both not of one mind, but all more like you than like the Swamp?

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    3X,
    .
    If you wish to prove Freeinpa’s point that 0 days in jail, 0 days of probation and 0 hours of community service is worse than being deported against your will, saying “I used to be a CEO” is not a winning argument. It is an irrelevant waste of space.
    .
    Now, go ahead and defend Freeinpa’s points without posting your resume.

  • maurice2u

    Patrick, you’re doing it wrong. You are trying to “win” an argument without the framework for how such a win would be obtained.
    .
    3x could you please define the terms for “winning”, and the contextual definition of a “debate” as it applies to this blog?
    .
    I get the distinct impression that we are not all playing the same game, so to speak.

  • maurice2u


    I think the Lefts efforts to claim all Hispanics are of one mind is totally wrong. In our community some Hispanic are Democrats and some are Republicans.”
    .
    This would be one of your best points made on Swamp. It is a failing that is not limited to any particular group however. The mind-set of “us vs. them” dominates American discourse these days, and in a 2-party system, it really is a zero sum game because selling the narative is beneficial enough, regardless of the facts (for either party).
    .
    Reality dictates that we are not all one way, all the time. On some issues we are conservative, some more liberal, some aggressive, some passive, and based on the time of the day and what happened previously, all those positions may temporarily swap around. Yet, it is simply easier to pick a team and root for it. Thus, to make oneself feel good about that choice: everything my team does is good (or justifiable) and everyone else is an idiot (or evil).
    .
    As Patrick notes above, there is a difference between “everyone that meets criteria A falls into bracket B” and noting that a significant majority of people who meet criteria A fit bracket B. How one acts upon such information is key, as well as how one discusses it.
    .
    There is no more a “left effort to claim” anything than there is a single big bad boogeyman that is in every child’s closet trying to terrify them. There is no single entity known as the: left, right, media, government, axis of evil, good guys, corporate america, wall street, or any other macro-level juggernaut of one mind. There are just people. The hardest drug dealing gangbanger likely still loves his grandma and buys her Christmas gifts, and sometimes the most dignified priest becomes a pedophile. That doesn’t make all gangbangers good people and it doesn’t make the Catholic church evil.
    .
    We’ve got to get out of this childish level of discourse if we’re ever going to mature to the next level as a species, whatever that may be. What things we agree with, state so. Those things we disagree with, say so and explain why, then move on. Recognize that in either case time may prove us to be right or wrong, and that conclusion is not necessarily synonymous with who “won or lost”.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    I don’t see the sports mentality for the self described liberals/progressives and moderates or even all of the conservatives.
    .
    Let me clarify: if you are a Yankees fan, you love it when the Yankees win. Why? Because you are Yankees fan. That is what I call a sports mentality.
    .
    Some, including 3X, is dying to find ways of saying that liberals are wrong, stupid, outliers, morally inferior or whatever his agenda of the day is.
    .
    Most people here ignore people like 3X.
    .
    Me, I find debating unreasonable people online amusing.
    .
    Once, not long ago I met a man in person who had a very far right agenda. Since I was not at work, I debated him. He was arguing that Democrats had not raised him social security benefits because we sent a relatively modest sum of money to Haiti and that the Republicans were the party to support.
    .
    Not a strong argument.
    .
    After a couple of minutes before he left the coffee shop, his face was changing color with anger. He decided that the Republicans were always right and that anybody who disagreed with him was a terrible person.
    .
    It’s good to be tall and relatively young. If we were the same size rather than my being about a foot taller than him (really short guy) I would have thought that he was going to take a swing at me.
    .
    Now, actually seeing somebody who looks like their head is going to explode isn’t the best thing. Online I can imagine that 3X is as calm and relaxed (and, I would guess bored) as I am.
    .
    But 3X among a few others are like fans cheering on team R .

  • http://erieangel.wordpress.com erieangel

    Here Here!! Great post.
    .
    Even when it comes to our political leanings, most of us identify more closely with one party than the other because that party represents more of our own views of the world and how it should be. That does not negate the fact that we very well may agree with some of the views of the opposing party. Only an idiot will say their party is right 100% of the time.
    .
    I even find myself agreeing with Sarah Palin from time to time. That doesn’t make me a republican or a conservative who is going to fall for all of the faux-patriotism, hate-mongering, phoniness of Ms. Palin. There have simply been one or two instances in which upon reflection I found I agreed with her. One the other hand, I’m certain that our reasons for coming to similar conclusions are totally different.

  • http://dmerrin10000.wordpress.com dmerrin10000

    It’s ridiculous to even discuss who is winning this debate, unless one is being rhetorical or sarcastic.

    Freeinpa– and I assume this is a reference to Pennsylvania, my home state– is repeating dime a dozen claims he’s heard on Glenn Beck or from right wing people about the way immigration law, entitlement law, and criminal law in America works, and one need read only one or two of his posts to gather up the sum total of his intellect and character, as revealed thusly– the ATM card to the U.S. treasury, the “bigger crime to not have health care” bit, and the “you leave out the murderers, drug dealers song and dance”– which presumably is his way of telling us he’s heard there’s some crime epidemic within the cohort of undocumented people.

    Freeinpa is a limited man whose life is devoted to identifying people he can imagine himself superior to. He finds few, so he goes to seeks his targets within vulnerable populations, AND, in populations he’s unlikely to ever meet in person.

    Do you know any undocumented immigrants Freeinpa? Have you ever known any of them? Because I am from Doylestown, and there aren’t too damn many illegal immigrants in PA. I’ve lived in L.A. for fifteen + years, and I can tell you immigrants are nothing like the way you describe them.

    And yet– who are the real fools here? Freeinpa, sitting at his computer with his fat crack hanging out over his pants, or us for arguing with him? Because no one who writes the things he writes is going to be moved by facts; facts tell us the true nature of a thing, and freeinpa is not interested in that– he’s obsessed with the concept of illegal immigrants because it’s something he can think about, repeat to himself his laundry list of immigrants moral and other failures, and can imagine himself their superior. He also gets off on insulting us with his lines about “liberals are this, liberals are that” because these little arguments probably account for the majority of the time thoughtful individuals notice and engage him. For that matter they may be the only time anyone notices and engages him. His thrill increases ten fold when he finds he can manipulate one of us into an argument with him.

    But here’s the thing, friends– if we stay here and argue with him, we end up looking stupider than he does. Not IQ stupider– stupider in a more real sense– stupider because this man– small, limited, not very bright, is able to hook and then control one of us to the point that we’re pasting replies and links and comments to him when he is… when he is him; when he is freeinpa.

    And mind, all– freeinpa is the guy here, but in reality, he’s just a proxy for several million others like him. We will be happier and more effective in putting forth the values we care about when we are able to understand that the freeinpa type will always be with us, and there is no pressing need to change him or eliminate him in any way– he doesn’t impact anything meaningfully. And if we ignore him, he doesn’t impact anything, period.

  • http://dmerrin10000.wordpress.com dmerrin10000

    And by the way, that’s not a silly argument. Much as I love our country, it’s an ugly fact that we have never even looked at our history very seriously, let alone made reparations for and peace with it. Of course, we whites have had a political majority for the last 350 years– basically for all of American history. That majority status has enabled not just this guy, but many white Americans to deal with that history by claiming it’s “irrelevant.”

    But that’s changing. In 2050, of course, we whites will be a mere plurality, and at that time, non whites will be able to speak their minds, and people like this man freeinpa will no longer be saying such arguments are silly.

    What will be interesting at that point, will be whether the freeinpa’s of the nation, having suddenly learned an adaptive public modesty and now talks quite a bit less than in 2010, will begin listening to what others have to say to him.

  • liberalmeltdown

    No Patty, most people ignore you. You posts full of BS aren’t worth reading, unless you want to know the liberal talking points on any given subject. Do they fax them or email them to you?
    .
    Nobody addressed my original post of the insanity of favoring illegal aliens over American citizens.
    .
    It’s not a wonder, since it is indefensible.
    .
    And Patty, I hated the amnesty given by Ronald Reagan. It was the biggest mistake he made. California was overrun with an invasion of illegals after that amnesty. WTF do you think will happen if the government gives amnesty again? Millions more will come.
    .
    And stop trying to find phony studies that show how illegals benefit the economy. They are takers: job takers, welfare takers, don’t pay income tax (you can’t be hired legally if you are here illegally)…so to get around that they commit identity theft or fraud to obtain a phony Social Security number. Then because they are low income earners, they can receive almost $6,000 in Earned Income Credit. So they are takers.

  • liberalmeltdown

    OK, this post should win an award for stupidity. Why don’t you off yourself, if you think population control is the answer. Call it self abortion.

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  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Psychiatric meltdown,
    .
    Either you are one of those far outside of the majority in the Swamp or you speak for everybody in saying that you ignore my posts.
    .
    Which is it?
    .
    “And stop trying to find phony studies that show how illegals benefit the economy. ”
    .
    Phony? Are you J D Salinger?
    .
    When one wants to know about health, a resonable person asks a doctor.
    .
    When one wants to know about history, a reasonable person consults a historian.
    .
    When one wants to know about economics, a reasonable person asks an economist.
    .
    However, when you want to learn about economics, history or anything else you are not an expert in, you inspect your colon with your face.
    .
    Once you get your head out of your ass and ask people who know, you’ll realize how psychotic you sound.
    .
    “They are takers: job takers”
    .
    You mean that they work for a living. This is good. Why would that not be good?
    .
    “…welfare takers,”
    .
    How can you get welfare when you don’t have a social security number and/or a birth certificate stating that you were born here?
    .
    You can’t.
    .
    “…don’t pay income tax (you can’t be hired legally if you are here illegally)…”
    .
    No, one gets a forged Social Security card, millions of card not corresponding to a real identity show up every year along with taxes paid.
    .
    “…so to get around that they commit identity theft or fraud to obtain a phony Social Security number..”
    .
    They are sold by forgers all of the time and the IRS and SSA take in billions of dollars from people who are not supposed to be working to pay taxes.
    .
    “Then because they are low income earners, they can receive almost $6,000 in Earned Income Credit.
    .
    “The United States federal Earned Income Tax Credit or Earned Income Credit (EITC or EIC) is a refundable tax credit for low- and middle-income persons and couples, primarily for those with children. For tax year 2009, a claimant with one qualifying child can receive a maximum credit of $3,043, a claimant with two qualifying children a maximum of $5,028, and a claimant with three or more qualifying children can receive a maximum credit of $5,657.[1][2]”
    .
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earned_Income_Tax_Credit
    .
    The Earned income tax credit is an income tax reduction, not a check going from the government to individuals. If you pay $0 in income tax, you can not get an earned income tax credit.
    .
    So, please take your medication, Psychiatric meltdown.
    .
    Absolutely everything you wrote is completely factually incorrect.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    You have a very reasonable argument.

  • 3xfire3

    Liberalmeltdown,
    .
    “No Patty, most people ignore you. You posts full of BS aren’t worth reading, unless you want to know the liberal talking points on any given subject. Do they fax them or email them to you?”
    .
    My compliments Liberalmeltdown . You are a very intelligent and insightful person. You have nailed Patrick to a tee. You get an A+ in understand his ignorance and lack of experience.
    .
    He lives in a bubble and has no life other than his computer and Google. If he can’t find it on Google he is totally lost. His only skill is in twisting facts to fit his deranged views.
    .
    When he is given actual facts, he will make ridiculous statements or find something on the internet that he can use to twist the facts and dispute any real facts.
    .
    An example would be my recent post “New Gallup Poll”.
    .
    According to Gallup, “the political composition of U.S. adults held fairly steady in 2010 compared with 2009. Conservatives remained the largest ideological group, at 40%, followed by moderates (35%) and then liberals (21%)”.
    .
    That Conservatives make up approximately 40% and Liberals make up about 21% of U. S. Citizens has been shown by many other surveys.
    .
    If you simply add 40% Conservatives to 35% Moderates you have a total of 75%. Based on the total of 75% it is only logical to say the America is still a “Center-Right Country”.
    .
    Guess who has the ignorance and BS to say this is not true. You guessed it Fact less Patrick.
    .
    I think Glen Beck had Patrick in mind when he wrote his bestselling book “Arguing with Idiots”.

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