Morning Must Reads: Holbrooke

(REUTERS/Mian Khursheed)

–Richard Holbrooke’s passing has prompted an outpouring of retrospectives full of awe and appreciation. Rajiv Chandrasekaran’s obituary, warm remembrances from Michael Elliot and Jeffrey Goldberg, George Packer’s recent profile, statements from countless public officials, and TNR’s compilation of works about and by Holbrooke are all well worth reading, as is Massimo:

Holbrooke was not just a prominent American diplomat who engaged in some of the most consequential international events of his time. In the same way that Shakespearian characters still seem to live with us today as the archetypes for human nobility, vanity and ambition, so Holbrooke seemed to be the very human version of American diplomacy itself: pile-driver powerful yet subtly persuasive; brash, volcanic and occasionally offensive, but tactically brilliant and capable of the finest strategic judgment; cold-eyed and sometimes heartlessly realistic, but possessing high principles and real, deep compassion.

–Mitt Romney comes out against the Obama-McConnell tax cut compromise in USA Today. The medium of the targeted op-ed has been his modus operandi throughout the Obama presidency, but his message breaks some new ground this time. His critiques reflect a very conservative line: Because the Bush extensions are temporary, he argues, the deal will exacerbate uncertainty in the private sector and, more notably, add too much to the deficit (he suggests permanent extensions would increase government revenue, a claim that many Republican economists find questionable.) Romney posits that extending jobless benefits will provide the unemployed a disincentive from finding work (Congressional Republicans for the most part favor extending UI, but simply want it offset with spending cuts) and even recommends establishing private “unemployment savings accounts.” The op-ed not only puts Romney, a former moderate governor of Massachusetts, at odds with much of the Republican Senate caucus; it positions him to the right of them.

–Some worthwhile thoughts on yesterday’s ruling against the individual mandate: Ilya Somin writes it confirms that legal challenges are more than an afterthought and the law is likely headed to the Supreme Court. Orrin Kerr argues Henry Hudson’s ruling had a glaring flaw related to the the Necessary and Proper clause. Ezra Klein is just happy that the individual mandate is being targeted separately from the law writ large. The Times has more.

–Michael Steele will seek another term atop the RNC. In classic Steele form, he was out there within hours explaining his flare to Greta Van Susteren:

My style is a little bit different than most conventional party chairmen; my style is more grassroots oriented, I’m much more of a street guy.

I love hanging out in boardrooms, but I prefer to be in the neighborhoods and communities.

–Crossroads GPS is already spending on 2012.

–Rahm Emanuel is still struggling with residency issues.

–Stan Collender is bearish on significant deficit action.

–And the same percentage of Americans that think Wall Street bonuses should remain an incentive believe Elvis lives.

What did I miss?

E-mail Adam

Related Topics: 2012 Election, Barack Obama, Congress, Democratic Party, Economy, Miscellany, Republican Party, Senate, Taxes, White House
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  • grape_crush

    What did I miss?

    “The 9/11 Non-Responders”

    TDS does the analysis that the straight media is incapable of.

    (video-with-commercial at the link)

  • pintortwo

    In homage to Richard Holbrooke and his dying request, “You’ve got to stop this war in Afghanistan”, I’ll post part of this open letter to President Obama in an attempt to perhaps explain why he felt this way:
    .
    What was supposed to be a population-centred strategy is now a full-scale military campaign causing civilian casualties and destruction of property. Night raids have become the main weapon to eliminate suspected Taliban, but much of the Afghan population sees these methods as illegitimate. Due to the violence of the military operations, we are losing the battle for hearts and minds in the Pashtun countryside, with a direct effect on the sustainability of the war. These measures, beyond their debatable military results, foster grievance. With Pakistan’s active support for the Taliban, it is not realistic to bet on a military solution. Drone strikes in Pakistan have a marginal effect on the insurgency but are destabilising Pakistan. The losses of the insurgency are compensated by new recruits who are often more radical than their predecessors.
    .
    The military campaign is suppressing, locally and temporarily, the symptoms of the disease, but fails to offer a cure. Military action may produce local and temporary improvements in security, but those improvements are neither going to last nor be replicable in the vast areas not garrisoned by Western forces without a political settlement.
    .
    The 2014 deadline to put the Afghan National Army in command of security is not realistic. Considering the quick disappearance of the state structure at a district level, it is difficult to envision a strong army standing alone without any other state institutions around. Like it or not, the Taliban are a long-term part of the Afghan political landscape, and we need to try and negotiate with them in order to reach a diplomatic settlement. The Taliban’s leadership has indicated its willingness to negotiate, and it is in our interests to talk to them. In fact, the Taliban are primarily concerned about the future of Afghanistan and not – contrary to what some may think – a broader global Islamic jihad. Their links with al-Qaeda – which is not, in any case, in Afghanistan any more – are weak. We need to at least try to seriously explore the possibility of a political settlement in which the Taliban are part of the Afghan political system. The negotiations with the insurgents could be extended to all groups in Afghanistan and regional powers.
    -link

  • grape_crush

    Forbes details Gawker’s epic pwnage.

    “While Gawker has posted a notice indicating that it is the user names and passwords of people who comment on their web site that have been compromised, analysis of the file released by the crackers themselves indicates that the breach extends to employees of Gawker, includes credentials for internal systems (Google applications, collaboration tools) used at the company, includes a leak of Gawker’s custom source code, includes credentials of Gawker employees for other web sites, includes FTP credentials for other web sites Gawker has worked with, includes access to Gawker’s statistics web site, and includes the e-mails of a number of the users who left comments at Gawker as well as users of lifehacker.com, kotaku.com, and gizmodo.com.

    The evidence also suggests the attackers have had access to Gawker’s internal systems for a period of time that is at least a month, and that they gained root level access to servers the Gawker Media web properties are hosted on.”

  • grape_crush

    Sharron Angle re-surfaces.

    “Former Nevada GOP Senate candidate Sharron Angle is angling to lead the tea party movement heading into 2012.

    Angle over the weekend unveiled the Patriot Caucus, a political action committee that she says has the support of tea party organizers in 15 states and that will “organize a ground game across most battleground states for the 2012 election cycle.” The group plans to open offices in Iowa, New Hampshire, Florida and Nevada — states with early presidential primaries and caucuses — in early 2011.”

  • pintortwo
  • http://derekg.wordpress.com/ Derek

    Romney seems to be saying he can be just as crazy and ill informed as Palin. This must mean he will only appear on Fox and Rush Limbaugh, from now on.

  • freeinpa

    And once again the left confuses a comedy show with news. But then liberalism is comedy

  • grape_crush

    Yesterday’s ruling against the individual mandate sets up an interesting conflict for the right.

    “The health insurance companies like United Healthcare and Aetna are up in knee-jerk fashion on the news that a judge has struck down the individual mandate aspect of Obamacare.

    Investors should wake up: If this were ultimately upheld, it would be horrible news for the insurers.

    The individual mandate is a necessary component of the system, because the new deal bans the exclusion of customers with pre-existing conditions.

    If the individual mandate goes, but insurers still have to accept anyone, then you have the same problem you’ve always had — negative self-selection. The insurers don’t get the benefit of the diversified risk pool, and are stuck insuring a disproportionately sick share of the population.”

  • http://2thirdsrocks.wordpress.com 2thirdsrocks

    Drone strikes on pakistan, hmm…
    .
    Seems I remember hearing something from the great B.O on that subject way back in campaign days, something about bombing pakistan…

  • freeinpa

    I wonder when the Southern Poverty Law Center will now name Obama and he Democrats in Congress a hate group as their inflamed class warfare rhetoric has now incited violence and criminal activity.
    .
    “27
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    Bob Menendez Gop Terrorists
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    Sen. Bob Menendez (D-N.J.) vented some of his frustration over the GOP’s insistence on extending the Bush tax cuts in their entirety on Friday, saying that the debate between the parties on the issue had grown akin to negotiating with terrorists.

    “Do you allow yourself to be held hostage and get something done for the sake of getting something done, when in fact it might be perverse in its ultimate results?” Menendez asked at a press conference on Capitol Hill. “It’s almost like the question of do you negotiate with terrorists.”
    .
    “Mr. Obama sought to assure Hispanics that he would push an immigration overhaul after the midterm elections, despite fierce Republican opposition.

    “If Latinos sit out the election instead of saying, ‘We’re gonna punish our enemies and we’re gonna reward our friends who stand with us on issues that are important to us,”
    .
    “It makes no sense to hold tax cuts for the middle class hostage- Obama”

    In both cases, the arsonist left a calling card, the message, “(expletive) the rich” at the scene…

    At 3:30 a.m. on Nov. 24, flames engulfed an unoccupied home still under construction at 16 Boulder Brook Road in Sandwich. Only the exterior of the house had been completed. The home, which was valued at $500,000, had a three-car garage and three bedrooms, but no plumbing or electric service, Sandwich Fire Chief George Russell said.

    The heavy damage burned much of the evidence. But the state Fire Marshal’s Office was recently able to rule that an arsonist had set the fire, Russell said.

    The following week, on Dec. 2, incendiary devices were found at 43 Trotters Lane in Marstons Mills, law enforcement officials said.

    At Trotters Lane, the message “(expletive) the rich,” was clearly spray painted on a fence on the property, Barnstable police Det. John York said.

    York said a similar message had been found at the Sandwich property. Sandwich officials have declined to provide details about that case.

  • grape_crush

    Not everyone is struggling to make ends meet.

    “Wall Street’s biggest banks, rebounding after a government bailout, are set to complete their best two years in investment banking and trading, buoyed by 2010 results likely to be the second-highest ever.

    The five largest U.S. firms by investment-banking and trading revenue — Goldman Sachs Group Inc., JPMorgan Chase & Co., Bank of America Corp., Citigroup Inc. and Morgan Stanley — will likely have a better fourth quarter than the previous two periods, driven by equity underwriting and higher volume in stock and bond trading, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. Even if this quarter only matches the third, the banks’ revenue will top that of any year except 2009.

    The surge has come after the five banks took a combined $135 billion from the Treasury Department’s Troubled Asset Relief Program and borrowed billions more from the Federal Reserve’s emergency-lending facilities in late 2008 and early 2009 following the collapse of Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. Since then, the firms have benefited from low interest rates and the Fed’s purchases of fixed-income securities.”

  • pintortwo

    I’ve said this before, liberal Americans’ best hope may lie in the Teaparty movement. The TP (with its roots in the Libertarianism) may demand that Republicans behave like actual conservatives: attack spending by ending the wars and slashing our military budget; limit Big Govt by repealing the Patriot Act, DADT, recognizing gay marriage and removing the fed govt from the abortion debate; act as honest-broker in diplomatic affairs; show respect for Constitutional Law and Civil Liberties.
    .
    Establishment Rs and Fox are in danger of losing narritive-control of the TP. I believe this could fracture the Republican Party and strip bare many media memes.
    .
    Moreover, liberals might not get all they want, but they will more of what they want from principled conservatives than the Democratic Party.

  • freeinpa

    Another government investment idea gone bad. The economic reality see hybrids fall on their face.

    Of course the answer is to tax gasoline more (Because higher taxes solve all problems). Of course the ones most impacted is the middle class- you know the group liberals hold up as icons of our economy right before they throw them under the bus. (A hybrid one of course)

    JD Power forecasts their total sales will reach 315,000 this year, up 8 per cent from 292,000 in 2009

    12 per cent growth for overall car market.

    Car buyers – notably in America, where gasoline prices have settled recently – are reluctant to pay the price premium that hybrids command, and are choosing fuel-efficient conventional cars instead.You have to drive it for 10 years to recover premium

  • http://gum0nshoe.wordpress.com gumOnShoe

    Welcome to the new Dark Ages. We don’t have divine right, we have monetary right. But it all comes out equal. Society moves forward based on who controls the resources, and that is determined by who can amass the most, not who can responsibly use them to the benefit of society. In this case science instead of religion will be used to deprive those of the bottom of resources which they could use to challenge the monarchs/captains of industry. Over time, the monarchs/captains of industry will diverge from the people. They will no longer support those that brought them to power. And a split in the classes will become more or less permanent as access to information becomes something you have to buy.

  • np042

    Free, did you even watch the video or just go straight to insults?
    .
    Please explain to me how Republican senators can use 9/11 as essentially a talking point for years and yet will do nothing to help those most affected by it?

  • pintortwo

    Yes. So you agree, 2/3s, that candidate Obama’s pledge to “finish the job” in Afghanistan has been revealed to mean “finish the neocons’ job” of establishing military bases in order to police the region– complete with the same neocon approved Pentagon hierarchy. I too think it’s time for a change.

  • freeinpa

    “The surge has come after the five banks took a combined $135 billion from the Treasury Department’s Troubled Asset Relief Program”
    .
    9 banks were forced to take TARP which they did. So now are you ticked because 1) they are successful 2) you can’t tax them back to insolvency 3) the government didn’t just take them over kike the car companies?
    .

    Remember the infamous meeting when then Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson had the heads of 9 major banks come down to Washington? It was then that he made them the offer they couldn’t refuse. Take TARP cash, or else!

    http://www.businessinsider.com/uncovered-tarp-docs-reveal-how-paulson-forced-banks-to-take-the-cash-2009-5

  • np042

    Sales of hybrids are increasing, year over year. Yep, that certainly sounds like they flopping.
    .
    Also, is it really suprising that car buyers are prioritizing the short term (lower initial car price) over the long term (lower overall usage price) right now? And do you have a link to that quote? I’d imagine that those fuel-efficient conventional cars for the most part are not American-made. When I think fuel-efficient I think of Toyotas, Honda’s VW’s, etc, not Ford.

  • freeinpa

    I could care less about what The Daily Show says. If that is the intellectual argument the left uses (for anything) I would suggest they stop criticizing any sources for the right.
    .
    During the 2008 election it was SNL now it’s TDS

  • grape_crush

    It might be worth watching the reporting on this by the money-losing part of Kaplan, Inc.

    “‘I would push back really hard against a bill that might come out of Chairman Harkin’s committee,’ Kline, of Minnesota, told Reuters, referring to Senator Tom Harkin, the Iowa Democrat who heads the Senate education committee. Harkin has commissioned a government probe of for-profit colleges and held hearings on their sales tactics, use of government funds and program quality.[...]

    For-profit colleges have come under growing scrutiny as Secretary Arne Duncan prepares industry regulations and Senate and House committees examine how for-profit colleges mislead applicants, target veterans and register student default rates at least double those of traditional universities. Republicans are raising objections to tougher regulations as they prepare to take control of the House of Representatives in January.

    ‘It looks like this may just be the first public confirmation of a Republican agenda that we’ve fully anticipated: that he would oppose Democratic legislation to regulate the space,’ Jarrel Price, an analyst with Height Analytics in Washington, said in a telephone interview of Kline’s comments.”

  • http://gum0nshoe.wordpress.com gumOnShoe

    freep has never cared about facts, just who is talking and what side they are on. That’s his problem.

  • http://therealestamerican.wordpress.com therealestamerican

    Free Pennsylvanian knows the Truth!
    .
    Those 9//11 welfare queens (some are actually from Queens!!!) need to pull themselves up by the bootstraps like all Real Americans should! Besides, they’re all northeastern city dwellers, and we all know how THEY vote!
    .
    The Real American Credo:
    - If I’m unemployed, I just need to get off my lazy butt and get a job!
    - If I’m sick, I just need to get off my lazy butt and get better!
    - If I’m rich, I just need to get off my lazy butt and get a tax break!
    .
    Real Americans don’t have lazy butts!

  • squirmz

    9.2……..

    that use of the “k” word was a typo…right?

  • freeinpa

    “show respect for Constitutional Law and Civil Liberties.”
    .
    Be careful what you ask for! Affirmative action, abortion “rights” the EPA regulation, HC “rights”, unemployment insurance are found nowhere in the Constitution and the same hands off policy for DADT and other liberal policies will be voided as well. Medicare and Social Security may also take a hit.
    .
    Not surprising the only spending you see is in defense, the Tea Party see more elsewhere.

  • 3xfire3

    pinto,
    .
    Dream on. The Tea Party Movement will continue to be Liberal’s worst nightmare for many years to come.
    .
    Liberal/Progressives have awakened a Sleeping Giant that will marginalize the L/P movement for the next 20 years.
    .
    Keep up the wishful thinking if it makes you sleep better.
    Dream on. 40 more years in the desert will go by fast for you. You’ll be asleep.

  • http://therealestamerican.wordpress.com therealestamerican

    Obama’s an arsonist!!!!!1!!!
    .
    Thank you, oh, thank you Free, but in Pennsylvania, for alerting us to this exciting new Black Ops Terrorist intel!
    .
    Finally, the Muslim Manchurian from Kenya has initiated his Master Plan! He’s going to Burn The Rich! It wasn’t enough to give them tax breaks! Now he’s burning them!
    .
    Breaks! Burning! When will the violence stop!

  • freeinpa

    Indeed it should have been an l instead of a k.

  • deconstructiva

    …likely a Freudian slip. He’s showing his true colors.

  • Paul-no not that one

    “Besides, they’re all northeastern city dwellers, and we all know how THEY vote!”
    .
    The great American statesman -and Bush family janitor- James Baker put it best-”(F) the 9/11 first responders, they don’t vote for us anyway”

  • grape_crush

    I would suggest..
    .
    Who cares? You’re a liar, a welcher, and none too bright. You have no moral or intellectual authority from which to suggest anything, Freeper.
    .
    But have a nice day anyway. :)

  • np042

    I could care less about what The Daily Show says. If that is the intellectual argument the left uses (for anything) I would suggest they stop criticizing any sources for the right.

    Then I would say you fundamentally do not understand the criticisms of right-wing (aka Fox) news sources.
    .
    I (and others) criticize Fox for deliberately misleading, lying, or making up news stories to fit their own agenda. I (and others) criticize the likes of Glenn Beck and Rush for purposefully inciting fear, hate, and spreading lies and misinformation.
    .
    You criticize the Daily Show for what? Being left-leaning? I’m more than willing to have an honest debate about the merits of the Daily Shows as both comedy and news, but you are obviously so wrapped up in your own world view that you are unable to see things from others perspective.
    .
    I’ll say it again:
    .
    Please explain to me how Republican senators can use 9/11 as essentially a talking point for years and yet will do nothing to help those most affected by it?

  • pintortwo

    So you agree, free, that “too big to fail” is an affront to capitalism, and the remedy is to either let them fail or enforce anti-trust and capital requirements. Fine with me. The Paulson memo (interesting, thanks) reveals that Obama’s economic policies are more akin to corporatism or corporate servitude than liberal or conservative principles (they forced banks to accept taxpayer money so they could insure the banks’ success). Further remedy should then be limiting lobby influence, stopping 527s and reforming re-election campaign finance.

  • 3xfire3

    Derek,
    .
    Don’t count on it. The latest polls show Romney beating Obama if the election were to be held today.
    .
    His resume, competence and experience to be President out shine Obama’s by a fact of 10 X.
    .
    Romney and the Tea Party Movement will be Obamas and Liberal worst nightmare in 2012.
    .
    Continue your ignorant comments. They are helping to show a majority of Americans what a bunch of losers liberals are.

  • http://therealestamerican.wordpress.com therealestamerican

    “Affirmative action, abortion “rights” the EPA regulation, HC “rights”, unemployment insurance are found nowhere in the Constitution”
    .
    That’s right my Free friend! That’s why Real Americans like us want to go back to a time of Strict Constitutional Interpretation!
    .
    A halcyon time when labor for our Productive Americans was free and easily imported! When factories belched forth massive clouds of Freedom Smoke to celebrate their productivities! When not paying your debts meant spending time in Free Market Freedom Prisons! A time when getting sick meant dying like a Proud America without becoming a burden on hard working Rich Americans!
    .
    Ah, those were the days, my Free Pennsylvanian friend. I can’t wait until the Tea Party returns us to them!

  • freeinpa

    “Sales of hybrids are increasing, year over year. Yep, that certainly sounds like they flopping”
    .
    Over half the sales are in Japan!
    .
    “Also, is it really suprising that car buyers are prioritizing the short term (lower initial car price) over the long term (lower overall usage price) right now?”
    .
    Not surprising at all. Cars sales surge when we had cash for clunkers. Hybrids are terribly expensive and the payback for the premium over fuel cost is 10 years. Cars average life in the US is 6-8 years

  • grape_crush

    Cassandra weighs in on the craptaxtic compromise.

    “The point is that while the deal will cost a lot — adding more to federal debt than the original Obama stimulus — it’s likely to get very little bang for the buck. Tax cuts for the wealthy will barely be spent at all; even middle-class tax cuts won’t add much to spending. And the business tax break will, I believe, do hardly anything to spur investment given the excess capacity businesses already have.

    The actual stimulus in the plan comes from the other measures, mainly unemployment benefits and the payroll tax break. And these measures (a) won’t make more than a modest dent in unemployment and (b) will fade out quickly, with the good stuff going away at the end of 2011.

    The question, then, is whether a year of modestly better performance is worth $850 billion in additional debt, plus a significantly raised probability that those tax cuts for the rich will become permanent. And I say no.

    The Obama team obviously disagrees. As I understand it, the administration believes that all it needs is a little more time and money, that any day now the economic engine will catch and we’ll be on the road back to prosperity. I hope it’s right, but I don’t think it is.

    What I expect, instead, is that we’ll be having this same conversation all over again in 2012, with unemployment still high and the economy suffering as the good parts of the current deal go away. The White House may think it has struck a good bargain, but I believe it’s in for a rude shock.”

  • jsfox

    It seems the VA Federal judge that ruled yesterday on The Mandate not only has a conflict of interest problem, but is actually not to familiar with the constitution either.

    from Hudson’s ruling:

    If a person’s decision not to purchase health insurance at a particular point in time does not constitute the type of economic activity subject to regulation under the Commerce Clause, then logically an attempt to enforce such provision under the Necessary and Proper Clause is equally offensive to the Constitution.

    Law Prof. Orin Kerr writing in the Volk Conspiracy a conservative leaning legal blog says Hudson is wrong.

    Kerr notes that this is all wrong. The Necessary and Proper Clause allows Congress to take steps beyond those listed in the Constitution to achieve its Constitutional ends, including the regulation of interstate commerce. Hudson’s argument wipes a major key part of the Constitution out of existence. Kerr says Hudson “rendered [it] a nullity.”

    http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/12/amateur-hour-va-judge-makes-elementary-error-in-health-care-ruling.php?ref=fpa

    This ruling gets overturned on appeal to the 7th Circuit.

  • freeinpa

    “likely a Freudian slip. He’s showing his true colors”
    .
    You are pathetic!

  • http://gum0nshoe.wordpress.com gumOnShoe

    Romney? A TPer?
    ·
    The guy who incepted health reform in Mass?
    ·
    The guy whose health care plan the national one is modeled after?
    ·
    My god, Paul’s right. You are delusional. It wasn’t even something that was apparent at first because you’ve got that fatherly, I’m a nice guy aura. And then when the reader starts paying attention to what you are actually saying it all comes out. You’re no better than freep or rusty when it comes down to it. Facts are things you get to say are facts because their truthYness is apparent to conservatives who know what to look for.

  • deconstructiva

    You wrote that word, welcher, not me.

  • freeinpa

    “So you agree, free, that “too big to fail” is an affront to capitalism, and the remedy is to either let them fail or enforce anti-trust and capital requirements”
    .
    Some of this may surprise you. Regardless of the size, if the business fails they should fail. Car companies, banks etc. Anti-trust? No that is just a government excuse to involve itself in a business. Banks have capital requirements as they should. FDIC insurance should be lowered or dropped. This has done nothing but socialize risk. I also think banks should be in the traditional banking business and no others (Glass-Steagal). The government should also stay out of the mortgage lending business or more precisely dictating and threatening banks to make certain loans.

  • http://www.zfgmortgage.com bs83

    Nice blog, Best rates on a Oklahoma Mortgage

  • http://derekg.wordpress.com/ Derek

    3xfire3 is a “loser” someone who believes in rational public policy and programs that actually work?
    .
    With respect to Romney, is he the guy who pretended to be a moderate conservative or is he the tea partier he is claiming to be now? Was he lying then, or now? Lying, in this case, being largely a function of a massive contradiction in his line of reasoning. Has he become John McCain, or is he just reacting to Sarah Palin being the most popular and powerful Republican in the country?

  • Art Pepper

    Freep: I’m surprised you would argue for a transportation system that relies on government-funded highways. Get big government off our backs already.

  • square1

    The early passing of Holbrooke is unfortunate.

    Having said that, my personal take is that official diplomatic efforts tend to be over-rated in terms of impacting the political tides.

    I’m not denying that at critical moments the individual efforts of key actors can swing history. E.g. the decision in 1990 by James Baker and April Glaspie to signal to Iraq that the U.S. would not object to an Iraqi invasion of Kuwait obviously swung history.

    But most of the time, diplomats take themselves far too seriously. Other factors (e.g. prevailing social, economic, religious, technological, and cultural factors) have a much greater impact on historical events.

    For example, for all of Holbrooke’s smarts and diplomatic acumen, would the U.S. now be in a significantly different position in Afghanistan or Pakistan if Holbrooke had never set foot in those countries? Doubtful.

  • pintortwo

    I stand by this: liberals might not get all they want, but they will more of what they want from principled conservatives than the Democratic Party. And that conservatism is often at odds with the Republican party.
    .
    And free, it’s not that the “only spending (I) see is in defense” or that I disagree with the Tea Party that wasteful spending exists elsewhere– not at all. I simply agree with Rep Paul, and I’d imagine with most non-establishment conservatives, that defense and the wars are the most prominent source of wasteful spending– any attack on spending needs to start there.
    .
    —–
    .
    3x, Fox has “awakened a Sleeping Giant”. Their plans have resulted in short-term elitist gains, but in the long-run, conservatism will rock the Republican party. I, for one, wish the TPers success and that they influence the republican nomination of a Libertarian to oppose Obama. In that case, they’ve got my vote.

  • pintortwo

    Free– much common ground here. Cheers!

  • grape_crush

    “A Terrible Way To Fix The Economy: Households Deleveraging Through Defaulting on Debt.”

    “Back when this crisis first started, people understood that this was going to be an ugly, ugly process. There were two ways of helping this process along. The first was modifying defects in the bankruptcy code to help with writing down mortgage debt, often referred to as lien-stripping or the cramdown bill. The second was a period of short sustained inflation, which was being recommended from all kinds of ideological places including Greg Mankiw and Kenneth Rogoff (Rogoff: “I’m advocating 6 percent inflation for at least a couple of years”).

    That our current situation is the exact opposite of this happening would be an understatement. The cramdown bill failed and we’ve got a period of moral panic and hysteria around strategic defaulters, those evil-doers that nobody can actually quantify as actually existing. We also have Sarah Palin and the conservative base teaming up with the Hard Money Right to scream “Fire! Fire!” on Noah’s ark. They are going to try and make 2011 a year of seige against the Federal Reserve, stoking fears that we’ll have an inflation crisis any day now when we are actually disinflating.

    The result is exactly what you’d expect: our consumer de-leveraging is mostly taking place through defaults on loans, the most painful, externality-prone, and drawn-out mechanism we have for resolving bad debts. That savings rate reflects less our ability to pay off our debts and more our inability with an unemployment crisis and the collectors kicking in the door.”

  • freeinpa

    Sounds like you are making a case for Hudson t be working on the 9th Circuit.
    .
    But if he is wrong I can’t wait for Congress to mandate the cars we buy or houses we own or the food we buy under the commerce clause.

  • 3xfire3

    freeinpa,
    .
    “I wonder when the Southern Poverty Law Center will now name Obama and he Democrats in Congress a hate group as their inflamed class warfare rhetoric has now incited violence and criminal activity.”
    .
    Notice the hypocrisy of the left.
    .
    They totally ignore your factual post but if this situation was being done by conservative individuals they would be up in arms and the story would be front page of the NYT and every other MSM.
    .
    In addition to the comments you showed above there have been many more by the leadership of the democrats. They are encouraging class welfare. Bernie Sanders did a great job of this and all the Swamp liberals sang his praise for days.
    .
    They claim Tea Party violence but cannot show one conviction of any Tea Party member for doing anything violent.
    .
    They are truly a bunch of Hypocrites.

  • Art Pepper

    Romney really is an idiot.

    Say what you like about Obama’s compromise (personally I’m against it), it did this: Now the Republicans have to figure out how to attack the popular parts of the package (unemployment benefits) while defending the unpopular parts (tax cuts for the wealthy).

    So far they are taking the line that it costs too much because it does not lower taxes enough, aka “tea party economics.”

  • freeinpa

    “I’m surprised you would argue for a transportation system that relies on government-funded highways”
    .
    I’m sorry where do I exactly argue for this? Because cars fueled by gasoline pay a gasoline tax that theoretically goes to fix highways (theoretically)? What will hybrid cars drive on? Is George Jetson now heading up Government Motors

  • jsfox

    Free you really do have issues you should deal with. If you had bothered to go read further, say the link. The mandates may well yet prove to be wrong. SCOTUS will decide in the long run. The point here is that Hudson used the wrong arguments to make his ruling thus opening the door for him to be overturned in the 4th Circuit.

    FYI the 9th Circuit in the court hearing the DADT case, but I was wrong as well the court that will hear VA ruling appeal is the 4th not the 7th

  • freeinpa

    Agreed- Banking is one of the few industries that should be regulated (judiciously) to protect our financial system. It however should not be used mitigate either depositors, loan recipients or the bank itself from the perils of risk.

  • freeinpa

    “You wrote that word, welcher, not me”
    .
    Pathetic and an idiot. Care to go for the trifecta?

  • squirmz

    i was just checking before i had to use the “R” word on ya.

  • Art Pepper

    I’m just surprised you are a car supporter at all. Highway projects are big government spending, no? Funded by taxes, no less.

  • freeinpa

    “They are truly a bunch of Hypocrites”
    .
    Yes they are. I have said here time and time again, their philosophy is bankrupt and built on lies the biggest lie being to themselves. But they never seem to tire of impugning the integrity, motives and words of conservatives. When that is your foundation the only choice is to attack conservatives.

  • 3xfire3

    grape and Paul,
    .
    Do you both work for the government?

  • freeinpa

    “i was just checking before i had to use the “R” word on ya.”
    .
    Republican?

  • freeinpa

    “I’m just surprised you are a car supporter at all. Highway projects are big government spending, no? Funded by taxes, no less”
    .
    Well sometimes you have to sacrifice so that I can drive an oversized SUV. Instead of a spare tire I have a mini Cooper in my trunk

  • Paul-no not that one

    Private sector.
    .
    Do you find it inconceivable that someone not working in the government would want to help people who sacrificed for our fellow countrymen?
    .
    What is the motivation for the republicans to block the bill?

  • 3xfire3

    Pinto,
    .
    No chance. The Tea Party will bring the Republican Party back to its roots and make it a better Party, more in line with a majority of American citizens.
    .
    I recently joined a local Tea Party group and our goal is to make the Republican Party more responsive to the will of the American people.
    .
    The Tea Party is the best thing that could have happen for the Republican Party. They will not harm it but will make it a much better party.
    .
    Liberals tried to do the same to the Democratic Party but because their political views are totally different then the vast majority of Americans, they are causing great harm to the Democratic Party. They may ultimately destroy it.

  • freeinpa

    “the new deal bans the exclusion of customers with pre-existing conditions.

    If the individual mandate goes, but insurers still have to accept anyone, then you have the same problem you’ve always had — negative self-selection. The insurers don’t get the benefit of the diversified risk pool, and are stuck insuring a disproportionately sick share of the population.”
    .

    The arguments for keeping this nightmare of a law get weaker by the day. How do insurers have “the same problem- negative selection” if the argument for the left has been insurance companies always rejected pre-existing conditions. Placing all takers in to a group is not a risk pool- its a pool full of risk.
    .
    With the mandate those who choose now not to be insured will make the same decision and will pay a lesser amount than the cost of HC insurance, so insurers should root to have the entire bill repealed

  • grape_crush

    Simple explanation: When Bush signed TARP, the only assets he intended to cover were the banks’.

    “Some of those states, including Ohio, let Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner know as far back as this past spring that they wanted to use some of those funds to assist legal aid groups that help individual homeowners. Seems like a reasonable request—unlike the absurdity of handing over trillions of dollars to robo-signing, foreclosure-mad banks, no questions asked.

    Treasury solicited the opinion of an outside law firm, Squire, Sanders & Dempsey. Never mind that the firm’s clients include BB&T Corporation and payday lender CNG Financial Corp. The firm said, in essence—sorry, no can do on the legal aid. Not permitted under the TARP.

    Huh? Hold on a sec—is this the same TARP that granted the Treasury Secretary all those ‘extraordinary powers’ to protect people’s home values, preserve home ownership, promote economic growth, etc.?”

  • http://gum0nshoe.wordpress.com gumOnShoe

    Except that Obama is giving tax cuts to the rich. He’s on their side. And they’ve never incited class warfare. A majority of liberals haven’t asked for class warfare.
    ·
    As a proud, sane liberal, I understand that the rich actually do fûck the poor and middle class over often enough. But the solution is not likely to be violence, but peaceful opposition and a renewal of the labor movement.
    ·
    Don’t blame the actions of one deluded individual on someone who isn’t even using the rhetoric you’re accusing him of using. Obama has never called for class war fare. He’s never called for a renewal of labor either.
    ·
    And Bernie Sanders wasn’t talking about class warfare either. He was talking about people who were literally on the edge of freezing to death because they couldn’t afford their heating bills or were too old to find wages that paid high enough; vs, the rich lords of wall street who got the bailouts and are now going to get tax cuts for no clear reason while taxes are raised on those who make the least.
    ·
    If there is class warfare going on, its perpetrated by the affluent who don’t understand what their actions do to our world.

  • grape_crush

    Do you both work for the government?
    .
    Private sector, for-profit. Have you ever taken a Medicare or Medicaid payment, Fake Doctor Earl?

  • freeinpa

    “The point here is that Hudson used the wrong arguments to make his ruling thus opening the door for him to be overturned in the 4th Circuit.”
    .

    It may be overturned, it may not be, the bottom line as you said it will go to the Supreme Court. There will be other states in other districts that will face the same fate.

  • Art Pepper

    “Instead of a spare tire I have a mini Cooper in my trunk”
    .
    Ha ha! Touche.

  • newfreedomblog

    “What is the motivation for the republicans to block the bill?”

    .
    As usual our friends on the left cannot conceive that spending should be PAID for when legislation is enacted. How can you be so hypocritical about the Bush wars in Iraq and Afghanistan not being paid for, and in the same breath allow this expense to go un-funded?

  • Art Pepper

    Also:
    .
    Romney argues that temporary tax cuts cause uncertainty, which suppresses job creation.
    .
    But then he wants to apply the payroll tax cut to employers, not just workers, which — according to his own argument — would increase uncertainty, unless those cuts are permanent.
    .
    But the payroll tax is the revenue stream for SS. Those cuts cannot be permanent, unless the goal is to bankrupt SS.
    .
    I believe that in fact that is a goal of the GOP, but if so, they owe it to their constituents to make a forthright argument.

  • newfreedomblog

    “If there is class warfare going on, its perpetrated by the affluent who don’t understand what their actions do to our world.”

    .
    It is just another game of who can we screw over next. A game which has been played for over 100 years by liberals and progressives alike.
    .
    The opportunity of scamming an issue, (take your pick of hundreds over the years), is what liberals and progressive have done well with until just recently. They do not have the best interests of the average person at heart, but their own selfish needs to spread the wealth or some other crisis to exploit.

  • freeinpa

    And the cause for this is the public outcry over the rescue of the “greedy banks” which you pound the drum on daily.
    .
    The major difference is that the government has gotten money back from banks it is quite unlikely they ever will in the housing markets.

  • newfreedomblog

    Seems like you have now acquired the ire of those here in the swamp that target a conservative, freeinpa. Congrats!!
    .
    Don’t let the needle-nosed, whiny-a$$ed libtards on here dissuade you from your intended goals in life. Tiny little people from the left are simply not worth your valuable time to respond back to them.

  • freeinpa

    So all the other economists that has said growth will increase and unemployment will drop are wrong and the Garden Gnome economist is correct- which by itself will be a first

  • Paul-no not that one

    “This expense”?
    .
    Healthcare for people who risked their health to aid their fellow citizens after a terrorist attack.
    .
    “This expense”
    .
    I can’t improve on that, Physician.

  • http://gum0nshoe.wordpress.com gumOnShoe

    Go back to your circle jerk. Clearly you’re all having too much fun stroking your talking points to even attempt to sound like you can make a rational argument.

  • allthingsinaname

    Starve the beast has been a GOP goal for decades and has found new support from the Democratic Party. Yes we can!

  • http://gum0nshoe.wordpress.com gumOnShoe

    Economists are now warning that the tax cuts put our country in a bad place when it comes to solvency, saying that reducing America’s credit rating may become a necessary step. This would cause borrowing rates to go up, and ultimately cause the deficit to grow even quicker. The argument goes that America is over leveraged, and just like the millions of poorer Americans who took out loans they couldn’t afford, America is eating debt it can’t pay back.
    ·
    The financial crisis in Greece & Italy may be heading our way if we choose to continue to go in this direction, even if we aren’t actually at risk of default. An investor run on America is a real possibility with real consequences.
    ·
    The House may be our only hope left.

  • np042

    To add onto what Paul said: because it is the government’s job to take care of it’s citizens. These citizens risked their lives to help their fellow countrymen and I personally think it is our duty to help them in return.
    .
    Also, it is somewhat ironic that you call me hypocritical for criticizing the wars in the middle east when you and others on the right, so-called “fiscal conservatives,” do the very same thing: harp on spending while ignoring the vastly bloated military spending.
    .
    In fact, if you had watched the clip, you’d see one of the complaints about the bill was prior spending that could not be accounted for and old loopholes: one of the parts of this bill is to close those very loopholes. In the same clip, we are reminded of the billions of dollars that were lost in Iraq; Congress immediately voted to extend more money to make up for that which was lost.
    .
    So please, call me hypocritical for wanting to help the first responders, as long as you can see yourself for the hypocrite you are as well.

  • grape_crush

    And for your dessert:

    Sensing too well when the journey is done | There is no turning back – no | There is no turning back – on the road

    “The Nasa space probe was launched in 1977 and passed by Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune before veering north.

    It is now 10.8 billion miles from the sun travelling at a speed of 38,000 mph.

    The solar wind, a stream of charged particles spewing from the sun, has slowed to a speed of zero and is moving sideways rather than outwards, marking the end of the solar system.”

  • hippooath

    “I could care less about what The Daily Show says. If that is the intellectual argument the left uses (for anything) I would suggest they stop criticizing any sources for the right.”
    .
    So they’re wrong because they show the absurdity through comedy? Maybe you can explain whats factually wrong with it?

  • hippooath

    “Yes they are. I have said here time and time again, their philosophy is bankrupt and built on lies the biggest lie being to themselves. But they never seem to tire of impugning the integrity, motives and words of conservatives. When that is your foundation the only choice is to attack conservatives.”
    .
    Nothing more precious than freeinpa – one person without integrity and always a complete hypocrite – the perfect ‘do as I say but not as I do’ and 3x the wise argue just how bad liberals are.
    .
    I don’t impugn your integrity and motive because you’re a conservative. It’s selfevident based on how you act. You don’t have any. You can’t keep your basic word, you whine about namecalling in the same breath as you do it, and you excuse your own side doing the same you always complain that the liberals do.
    .
    You are the most perfect example of someone who lacks all the things you accuse your opposition off. It’s not even a maybe. It’s clear as day. So continue wrap your self in your purple heart, completely selfinflicted, and keep on using your political tribe as a shield.
    .
    Your politically leaning have nothing to do with what you are. You’re just one of those ideologues who can’t live the way you preach because integrity require a commitment and you have commitment issues.

  • hippooath

    “Don’t let the needle-nosed, whiny-a$$ed libtards on here dissuade you from your intended goals in life. Tiny little people from the left are simply not worth your valuable time to respond back to them.”
    .
    Liberals are scum, not worthy of time huh?
    .
    My dad always told me to be the lesser @sshole, but apparently you live by a different creed.

  • freeinpa

    “freep has never cared about facts”
    .
    So I am correct in that the left thinks that TDS is a fact based news organization. And you make fun of Fox

  • freeinpa

    “Except that Obama is giving tax cuts to the rich. He’s on their side. And they’ve never incited class warfare. A majority of liberals haven’t asked for class warfare.
    ·
    As a proud, sane liberal,
    .
    First sane liberal is an oxymoron (sane is oxy liberal is moron)
    .
    But deal with facts not liberal talking points. By extending the law there are no tax cuts for the rich. The tax rates are staying the same. Liberals do not need to ask for class warfare it is the basis of their philosophy. Without providing entitlements for others and using other’s money to do it- you are demonizing one group for another.
    .
    But of course the left will argue fairness. So what is fair about taking money people earned and taxing it at significantly higher rates than others that you propose to give the new found bounty. And define fairness? Is it 35%? 39.6%? 50% 70? or whatever strikes a liberal at a given moment. Sane indeed!

  • freeinpa

    “My dad always told me to be the lesser @sshole”

    .
    Too bad your father failed in his teaching

  • freeinpa

    My #1 Rule- Never lose your sense of humor

  • freeinpa

    The same economists that rated securitized mortgaged back securities “AAA”

  • np042

    So I am correct in that the left thinks that TDS is a fact based news organization. And you make fun of Fox

    Personally I consider TDS to be a fact-based comedy news organization. I also don’t consider myself to be a part of the left you so dearly love to demonize; I just personally can’t stand ignorance.
    .
    In another post you tell someone to deal only with facts; here’s your chance. Please, tell me, show me somewhere that TDS does not deal in facts. Anthying. It’s been shown time and again that FOX makes things up, so please shed a little light on this for me.
    .
    No one here is denying that TDS is a comedy program. It is on Comedy Central afterall. The point is that a comedy show is able to do a better job at being a news organization than most news organizations. It also doesn’t hurt that Fox News and the like provide them with plenty of material. (see the various Glenn Beck impersonations)
    .
    So again I ask, what, other than the fact that it is left-leaning, is wrong with TDS? Remember, only facts here. Or are you a Colbert-fan and only deal in truthiness?

  • http://gum0nshoe.wordpress.com gumOnShoe

    “freep has never cared about facts”
    .
    So I am correct in that the left thinks that TDS is a fact based news organization. And you make fun of Fox

    ·
    No, I’m an individual and don’t represent the entirety of the left when I talk. Sometimes I don’t even make very leftward points.
    ·
    On topic, TDS is a comedy show that uses its position as a political news show satirization to fact check the worst offenders in the 24 hour news world. They don’t present new facts, they just point out where others got it wrong, make potty jokes, and interview people who write books.
    ·
    The difference is that Fox claims to be telling the truth 100% of the time, but they lie. TDS makes jokes about Fox, MSNBC, CNN and any other news group out there whenever it can say “gatcha.” TDS doesn’t make any promises about the truth value of its coverage, whereas Fox does. Leaving Fox as a hypocrite and TDS as a low brow relatively honest source of humor. Occasionally something so atrocious happens and J. Stewart will actually get serious or he’ll do a real interview. But on the whole, TDS doesn’t exist to be a source of information, but of laughs.
    ·
    But, they do often point out where other people got it wrong or were hypocrites. And, the clip above shows how Republicans do one thing and then turn about face and do another. And your response (when factored) is just that “its ok because fox does it to/its just as bad as when fox does it,” which to me feels entirely irrelevant to the issue of whether or not Republicans are hypocrites or not.

  • np042

    Over half the sales are in Japan!

    Ok, I’d love to see a link to this. Remember, facts Free, facts.

  • freeinpa

    The rich are screwing the poor public again. And the shortfall is because of revenue and not spending!

    .

    NY state’s deficit may be 22 percent wider than estimated by the Budget Division because tax revenue, including from Wall Street bonuses, may be less than expected.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-12-14/new-york-state-may-face-deficit-topping-11-billion-as-bonuses-set-to-fall.html

  • pintortwo

    The Tea Party will bring the Republican Party back to its roots and make it a better Party
    .
    That’s what I’m counting on, 3x.
    .
    Liberals tried to do the same to the Democratic Party but because their political views are totally different then the vast majority of Americans, they are causing great harm to the Democratic Party. They may ultimately destroy it.
    .
    The majority of voting Americans elected Obama and the Dems to enact liberal policy: end the wars, cut defense, provide a public option, invest in jobs programs. We got none of it. The Dem Party abandoned the people that elected them- they, by governing center-right, caused harm to themselves.
    .
    The most recent elections show that many realized the Dems abandoned them and the liberal solutions they wanted; and that corporate media has been effective in falsely painting Obama and the Dems as liberals while pinning the failures of corporatist policy on liberalism.
    .
    You seem to have fallen for the latter, the “us vs them” meme that elites project over the airwaves. It is not you versus me, it is not liberal versus conservative. Politics should be based on a debate of varying ideas. Currently, it’s not. The Hill hasn’t seen non-compromised debate on the issues in decades, nor has the media tried to educate us as such. Big corporations have too much influence in writing our laws and electing our leaders- and popular media is their best tool.
    .
    I hope that corporations do well, hire, make large profits– but they do not police themselves, they, by design, act solely in their own interests and that which benefits industry heads does not trickle down to you and me. Because of that, we need to keep them at arms length from our lawmakers and the lawmaking process. If we do, the governent and the economy will function better.

  • kbanginmotown

    npo42 & GumOnShoe: Thanks for the replies on Monday’s thread about how you made the transition from young conservative to less-young moderate / liberal.
    .
    Living in a red part of my state, I’m generally disheartened by the number of people that have stuck with their “conservative” belief system, especially after the past decade.
    .
    There’s hope.

  • http://gum0nshoe.wordpress.com gumOnShoe

    But deal with facts not liberal talking points. By extending the law there are no tax cuts for the rich. The tax rates are staying the same. Liberals do not need to ask for class warfare it is the basis of their philosophy. Without providing entitlements for others and using other’s money to do it- you are demonizing one group for another.

    The current status is a cut status that was passed in a temporary fashion. Continuing the status quo keeps a tax cut in effect for the rich as well as the not so rich, but is ultimately the extension of a situation that was meant to be temporary. So, by extending the cuts, you are indeed cutting taxes for the rich. It is a new measure since the old was set to expire and everyone should have been expecting their taxes to go up at the end of this year. Anyone not expecting that doesn’t know how to make a budget.
    ·
    Class warfare is not the basis of liberal ideology. There’s your x’th outright lie of the day.
    ·
    I can’t make sense out of your last sentence.
    ·

    But of course the left will argue fairness. So what is fair about taking money people earned and taxing it at significantly higher rates than others that you propose to give the new found bounty. And define fairness? Is it 35%? 39.6%? 50% 70? or whatever strikes a liberal at a given moment. Sane indeed!

    First your argument assumes that there’s fairness involved in the rather arbitrary assignment of wages to begin with. The rich and all their buddies get to determine who makes what and how much, including for themselves. It make sense that their wages are higher because they are the decision makers and naturally human greed takes over. I don’t think that’s a very fair system, but simultaneously I don’t define fairness with a percentage, but I also don’t need to make a fairness argument as you seem to presume I need to or will.
    ·
    My argument would be based instead upon trying to maximize economic output. In order to do that, you need to ensure demand for products will exist and in order for that to happen you have to ensure people are being paid just enough to be able to buy necessities, stay healthy, and indulge in a little consumerism without building up massive amounts of debt. And in order to ensure this, and hence a market for products, you need a strong middle class and you need to minimize poverty.
    ·
    Tax cuts for the rich don’t achieve this. Non regressive taxes on the rich ensure there’s a ceiling which would prevent them from taking too much out the system and causing it to crash by removing demand which they need to survive. Its like a mmorpg, not that you’ll understand the point I’m about to make. When leveling up you acquire points, but the more points you have the less those points mean. Ultimately unbounded success makes the experience boring and leads to users who instead of being a part of the community abuse it for their own personal entertainment. That’s why mmorpgs don’t have cheat codes. Invincibility would defeat the purpose of the game. Similarly, in economics, the super rich having undue control on the society will ultimately harm it. Keeping the power/money ceiling low enough to keep individuals from becoming “gods” while still providing very good incentives for “leveling up”/getting richer is the key to a successful society. Too much power in any branch leads to the whole thing falling apart for the majority.
    ·
    Ultimately the problem with the “new” tax cut is that it is regressive and raises the ceiling while ultimately reducing the power of the poor even further (read as reducing demand). The tax cuts are actually “redistributing” wealth upwards.
    ·
    All of this is neither here nor there. You’re arguments were originally that Obama was somehow inciting a class war because a lone arsonist burned down a rich person’s house. The fact that a person is burning down a rich person’s house (because they are rich) just means that we’re reaching a point where individuals think the system is unbalanced enough that violence is excusable. Regardless of whether you agree with these motives, reducing the effect of poverty on the citizens of this country should increase morale enough to make incidents like this less common. We’ve seen what happens when the rich take the “Let Them Eat Cake” mentality too far. Heads roll. That’s not a liberal sentiment. That’s what history has taught us. I’d rather heads didn’t roll, and to prevent it from happening something has to be done about the wealth gap.

  • http://gum0nshoe.wordpress.com gumOnShoe

    Sad to say it, but I’ve always been an outsider. I usually buck the trend. I was the nerdy outsider in high school and the accepted nerd in a group of nerds in college. I’d say there are probably more liberals coming in the younger generation, but a lot of them are being disappointed by Obama, as I’ve said, because he’s not a champion of the youth. Sure, we recognize Republicans suck too, but that usually creates apathetic, not motivated, individuals.
    ·
    Your hope probably lies more with people like my brother and sister who aren’t as outsiderish as me, but they are also less informed and less involved. But, still, they see my parents racism and my grandparents intolerances and they’ve chosen not to make them a part of their lives.
    ·
    I have to say. The future of our country really lies in whether our leaders can be leaders worth following or whether we can find new ones. I’m not nearly as hopeful as I was a couple years ago.
    ·
    I’ve mentioned it before, but I recently lost a friend because he chose cross burning over friendship. For every guy like me, there’s one who isn’t.

  • pittsburghpoet

    Or a Wall Street Wedding?

  • 3xfire3

    Paul,
    .
    Read post 11 and 11.1 from article “The 411 or 7 Billion for 9/11. Perhaps it will help you understand why the bill is not a good bill.
    .
    The First Responder’s part of the bill would be passed immediately if it was voted on as a stand-alone bill. Why won’t the Democrats allow that vote?

  • 3xfire3

    Paul,
    .
    “The great American statesman -and Bush family janitor- James Baker put it best-”(F) the 9/11 first responders, they don’t vote for us anyway”.
    .
    That’s pure garbage. Show me a credible source that shows Baker actually said that.

  • 3xfire3

    pinto,
    .
    “The majority of voting Americans elected Obama and the Dems to enact liberal policy:”
    .
    You are either rationalizing, dreaming or lying to yourself.
    .
    Obama ran as a moderate Centralist not as a Liberal. The American people had no idea how liberal he really was and now that they know they are totally rejecting him and the Liberal/Progressive cause.
    .
    Nov. 2nd showed what the American public thinks of Liberalism. They totally rejected it and you can try to spin it anyway you want but the American people have spoken loud and clear. They want nothing to do with your Liberal/Progressivism.
    .
    In 2012 Obama will be gone and the Republicans will control both houses of Congress and maybe the Real Democrats will regain control of their Party.

  • pintortwo

    Obama ran as a moderate Centralist not as a Liberal.
    .
    No one in the media, nor opponents, portrayed his as a socialist-radical-terror sympathizer-libloon? He didn’t have on his campaign website the promise to provide a public option for all Americans and to invest in modernizing our electric grid as a jobs program? He didn’t say in townhall debates that he’d end the wars and cut defense?
    .
    The American people had no idea how liberal he really was and now that they know they are totally rejecting him and the Liberal/Progressive cause.
    .
    Please describe the liberal programs he has fought for and enacted- the ones rejected by voters.
    .
    Otherwise, this is a more accurate statement:
    .
    The majority that elected him had no idea how centrist he really was and now that they know they are totally rejecting him and the Centrist/Corporatist cause.”

  • freeinpa

    “And that conservatism is often at odds with the Republican party.”
    .
    Oh I agree. In time they turn into political hacks and their priority is to stay elected, in general.
    .
    “The majority of voting Americans elected Obama and the Dems to enact liberal policy: end the wars, cut defense, provide a public option, invest in jobs programs.”
    .
    I disagree with your assessment. They voted for change but in reality the MSM never pressed Obama for what he stood for, if anything. Remember this was a guy with no experience and he voted present. The left knew what he was, the rest were caught up in the pageantry. Obama tried what you claim everyone wanted but when it was attempted the revolt started and the Dems policies dreams are on the run. Outside of possibly an end to the war nothing else you described was ever the mandate.

  • freeinpa

    “I don’t impugn your integrity and motive because you’re a conservative. It’s selfevident based on how you act. You don’t have any. You can’t keep your basic word, you whine about namecalling in the same breath as you do it, and you excuse your own side doing the same you always complain that the liberals do.”
    .
    Your first sentence is a lie and then rest makes the assumption that I are what you think. I don’t. I disagree with folks on the left here all the time. There are several I treat, deliberately with no respect or regard, and you are one. You give arrogant tomes about things you know nothing about, and despite you denial you readily name call and denigrate with nonsense. You accuse folks of not using facts then you provide none or moving the goal posts while not answering a single questions. You specialize in obfuscation.

    You don’t like how I treat you? 2 options. Post something besides nonsense or 2 ignore my posts. Either case I don’t care.

  • Paul-no not that one

    You caught me!
    .
    I misquoted him. Substitute “jews” for “9/11 responder” and you will find plenty of sources.
    .
    He said it to GHW Bush.
    .
    Better?

  • selfseeder

    :”When the first George Bush was in the White House, he evinced a similar anti-Israel animus, and some of his advisers worried that his Mideast policy would hurt the president with Jewish voters. “F— the Jews,” Secretary of State James Baker notoriously responded, “they don’t vote for us anyway.” They didn’t: When Bush ran for re-election in 1992, he drew only 11 percent of the Jewish vote — less than a third of those who had voted for him in 1988.”
    http://www.jeffjacoby.com/7543/obama-israel-american-jews-the-challenge

  • freeinpa

    Ok, I’d love to see a link to this. Remember, facts Free, facts.”
    .
    Sorry npo432, they are the facts as posted in yesterday’s FT. They explicitly note not to copy or post on any web sites. If you have access their web site you can see it.

  • pintortwo

    Free, you can’t say that the people that voted for him did not want the policies I describe.
    .
    And three polls in early ’09 showed about 75% of Americans, and about the same % of physicians, wanted to have a public option available. If he and the dems made the case for it, perhaps attempting to make medicare available for all to buy in, he could have gotten it. And, later, after he gave it to Congress to kick around for a while, he/they could have still gotten it done through reconciliation. I claimed now as I did then: the Dems, despite campaign promises, never intended to provide a PO, just blame the Rs for stopping it.
    .
    Obama, IMO, didn’t try any of those things- he gave them lip service. And yes, his base, liberal leaning Americans, have rejected him for it.

  • apr2563

    OT: Happy birthday Ivy_B!

  • apr2563

    I sort of don’t mean to be disrespectful. But here goes.
    It is beginning to feel like one of my family funerals. I come from a very large Catholic family. Funerals were truely an epic gathering. Most family members were buried in the same graveyard (something I will avoid) and as mourners paraded to the burial site of a newly departed, homage had to be payed to each family gravestone.
    .
    At the wake, aunts would take positions of mourning to review each of their own losses. It was almost a grieving compitition. Meanwhile, the uncles were drowning their sorrows with bourbon.
    .
    My point is, so many traditional media members are pointing to their good friendship with Ambassador Holbrooke, it becomes redundant. I have heard and read of Klein, Kristoff, Mitchell, Sawyer, Couric, and numerous others responsible for reporting foreign policy who considered him a very special friend.
    .
    I am not questioning Mr. Holbrooke’s abilities and sincerity. I am questioning what this says about the Village fraternization and vaunted objectivity.

  • apr2563
  • apr2563

    Colbert looks at Fox Propaganda Network’s never ending defense against the war on Christmas.
    .
    http://tpmlivewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/12/colbert-adds-to-foxs-reporting-of-the-nations-war-on-christmas-video.php?ref=fpb

  • apr2563
  • apr2563

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/14/obamas-judges-blocked-historic-rate_n_796435.html?fbwall
    .
    How about those up and down votes on judicial nominations the Republicans so support.
    Obama judicial appointments blocked at historic rate.

  • apr2563

    One more:
    .
    Jay, another perspective on your online interview with Palin. Please take it seriously.
    .
    http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2010/12/10/palin_time_email

  • 3xfire3

    Pinto,
    .
    “Yes. So you agree, 2/3s, that candidate Obama’s pledge to “finish the job” in Afghanistan has been revealed to mean “finish the neocons’ job” of establishing military bases in order to police the region– complete with the same neocon approved Pentagon hierarchy. I too think it’s time for a change.”
    .
    Wow you are really far out there. Your imagination is running wild and you have lost total contact with reality.
    .
    When I said you were an Extreme Liberal, I didn’t realize how far Left you were. You make most of the Liberals of the Swamp look like Conservatives. You are truly a Loon.
    .
    No wonder it’s impossible to have a logical, rational discussion with you. Do you believe in UFO also?

  • 3xfire3

    gumOnShoe,
    .
    Young lady You don’t know Sh*t. You post ignorant stuff you have read somewhere and accept it as truth when you have no actual personal experience to prove any of your hog wash is actually factual.
    .
    The kind of garbage you are promoting here is the same kind of garbage that was spread in Germany in the 1930s about the Jewish people. There the rich. They are too successful. We need to take their money and give it to others who are more in need.
    .
    Ultimately the garbage that was spread by people like you inflamed the German citizens against the Jews and resulted in the murder of over 6,000,000 innocent people.
    .
    You really need to study history some more and obtain some actual “Real World” experience before you seek to promote the lies of ignorance you are posting here.

  • 3xfire3

    Apr,
    .
    Your jealousy of Sarah Palin is getting to be a real bore.
    .
    Don’t you have some Christmas kitting to do or something productive to do with your life?
    .
    Your comments about Palin are really pathetic. Get a life.

  • piper1

    You really are beyond parody, 3x. A real class act.

  • http://gum0nshoe.wordpress.com gumOnShoe

    I guess your plan is to just troll at this point. You argue about facts and points but the only thing you ever do is attack my character. If you actually had facts you’d be able to use them to deconstruct my argument.
    .
    Here’s a tip 3x. I’m not a girl. I said that because on the internet you can sway whatever the h-ll you want. That’s why no one believes that our 4 conservatives are the super heroes of modern society that they claim to be.
    .
    Here’s another tip, you need to back the f-ck off the holocaust stuff. Not because I’m offended, but because you’re an idiot. 12 million people died in the holocaust. Half of them were Jews. WWII killed 50-70 million alone. And when it came down to things the argument they made is nothing like the one I made. I’m not arguing for racial superiority (I am a Jew for f-cks sake). I’m arguing that the “rich” ought to take it upon themselves to balance out society before society does it for them.
    .
    That was a post worthy of Beck. But, here, we’ll do for you what I did for Rusty.
    .
    You’re here to defend the American way. The “True” American. That’s called nationalism. And Nationalism was also in the name of the National Socialists Party of Germany, which when you shorten becomes N-A-Z-I. OMG, YOU’RE A NAZI!111!11
    .
    See, the ideas are related. It must be true. Only a nationalist would kill Jews!

  • 3xfire3

    gumOnShoe,
    .
    So you think saying America is a great and noble country that has provided more opportunities to be successful for its citizens and immigrants than any other country is believing in Nationalism which you say is wrong and evil.
    .
    You are a very young piece of work and as I sad “You don’t know Sh*t”.
    Come back and post something when you have lived long enough to actually have some “Real World Wisdom”. As you probably don’t know or understand,
    “Wisdom is a Combination of Education and Experience”. If you don’t have both you have very little wisdom.
    .
    Yes I know you are Jewish. You already told me that.
    So was George Soros when as a teenager he helped the Germans persecute the Jews in Hungary. He does not apologize for working with the Germans against his own people. He says it was a rewarding time in his life. He is a secular Jew. I believe you posted that you were also a secular Jew or was it that you that you were just not religious.

  • 3xfire3

    I read Romney’s article in USA Today. It was excellent. He is definitely a person who would make a great President. He has substantial Business Management Experience, managed the Olympics and has been Governor of a state. I like the fact that he has a lot of Business Management experience as well as Government Management experience.
    .
    Having someone with all of the experience that Romney has would be a very welcome change after Obama who had no management experience and has never managed anything not even a lemonade stand.
    .
    Mayor Bloomberg said the other day that a major problem with Obama is that he personally has no Business experience and that he doesn’t have senior advisers with business experience. It’s the blind leading the blind.
    .
    So as I said Romney would be a great President. When I was in Florida in 2008 I had the privilege of attending a meeting where Romney was the guest speaker. He handles himself very well and is a very impressive individual.
    .
    I’m sure you Liberals will keep demonizing him. After all he is a very major threat to your “Chosen One”. According to current polls if the election was held today, Romney would beat Obama.
    .
    After a campaign and when more Americans know him better, I believe he would beat Obama by a landslide.

  • http://gum0nshoe.wordpress.com gumOnShoe

    I’m saying its easy to draw parallels between two very different situations when you’re willing to ignore almost everything but the surface of the facts.
    ·
    It is easy to be a horrible person too, as you have done. A pox upon you. Don’t ever expect me to treat you with an iota of respect after daring to imply I’d help exterminate a group of people for profit.
    ·
    You are what is wrong with America.

  • 3xfire3

    gumOnShoe,
    .
    No, you and your Liberal/Progressive fiends are what is wrong with America.
    .
    And I did not imply you did as Soros. You implied that because you are a Jew you could not be anti-Jewish.
    Soros was my example to show that what you said is not always true.
    .
    Do you have a job? If so you need to get a real life and stop wasting it spending so much time posting to this site. I don’t have a job. I’m retired.

  • http://gum0nshoe.wordpress.com gumOnShoe

    The person to bring up my faith, which you’ve already admitted you knew about, and the holocaust was you when you accused me of the same acts NAZIs were committing before they began eradicating my family. The proof is up above, but here read your own words:

    gumOnShoe,
    … [snip] …
    ·
    The kind of garbage you are promoting here is the same kind of garbage that was spread in Germany in the 1930s about the Jewish people. There the rich. They are too successful. We need to take their money and give it to others who are more in need.
    .
    Ultimately the garbage that was spread by people like you inflamed the German citizens against the Jews and resulted in the murder of over 6,000,000 innocent people.
    ·
    … [snip] …

    You’re a horrible person. I repeat, you are horrible for America. I repeat you deserve no respect. Full Stop.
    ·
    This thread is over. I will not be replying to you further. Feel free to have the last word that I will never read:

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