The Liberal Rebellion That Wasn’t: 65 Percent Support McConnell Tax Deal

Well, that’s kind of a terrible way to ask the question, isn’t it? It doesn’t actually say what the compromise does.

Its a great leap of faith to assume “self identified liberals” are actually liberal in practice, have been staying up to date on the facts, or were only accepting the plan because of unemployment benefits while still upset over the tax cuts.
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That said, you may be right that a significant portion of the base isn’t compromised. But even so, having a base approval rating of only 60% feels small. The information has only had about a week or so to percolate, and a lot of those self identified liberals get their info from democratic sources, sound bytes, or word of mouth rather than analyzing and researching the topic.

Plus, its hard to argue against money in your pocket legislation, even if it is bad for the economy.

So, while right now a small majority of the base might be happy as is, it remains to be seen whether this stays over the long term.

It’d have been interesting if there were some qualifier questions to determine how much factual information a person knew about the plan; whether they were aware taxes were going up on those making 20,000 or less under the plan; or on specific policies instead of what was freely available.

I get your point, but this is either a blip or the beginning of a trend for Obama. And Obama’s actions over the next year are going to determine whether this potential trend accelerates. 60% base approval can be eroded if 40% aren’t sure or are against. Especially when you have people coming at it from both sides.

There are progressive reasons for supporting this compromise, after all. I like the payroll tax cut and the unemployment extension and think both will do some good and I’m pretty far left.

But, knowing the payroll tax cut hits SS, does that bother you?

And, as some commentators have commented, progressive =/= movement liberal.

“From what you’ve read and heard, do you strongly
approve, approve, disapprove or strongly disapprove of this plan?”

“Given that most of the media narrative you’ve read and heard is that this is a good plan everyone should approve of, do you strongly approve, approve, disapprove or strongly disapprove of this plan?

Sorry, Michael. Try again.

Here’s an update for ya. Wait until that number figure out they are getting a tax hike instead of a tax cut.

It bothers me if the shortfall isn’t made up from the general revenue. But I believe it will be so I’m okay with that. The SSI tax is really regressive in any event so it’s a good place to have a tax holiday while people are hurting. This will also be very helpful to upper middle class taxpayers who really didn’t get much out of the Making Work Pay credit, which phased out too early and was capped too small.

But, knowing the payroll tax cut hits SS, does that bother you?
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It should. I’m still wondering how cutting contributions to Social Security impacts the deficit. I’m not sure that the assumed stimulated effect of those diverted dollars is worth having to raise the retirement age or cutting benefits in the future.
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Which is the end game in doing this.

One quick comment on Michael’s take here — while it’s true that a lot of people on the left were angry at the substance of the compromisem, I think the charge that the President is losing his base actually came a bit later, when he immediately scolded the left for its “sanctimony.” That was not base-lovin’ behavior. I wonder if a substantial number of these poll respondents aren’t a little like me in that they support or can live with the compromise but didn’t appreciate the president’s condescension.

I think there are many liberals, who resent being called “anti_American”, which is essentially what Obama called them, who simply think this is bad fiscal policy, on top of what it does to the debt.
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It seems the Democrats are willing to try everything but what has worked in the past. If the past 10 years are not proof enough of the fallacy that a tax cut only policy is a recipe for failure, I don’t know what is.

That should be tax cut only policies are a failure.

Here’s hoping Obama is not put in chances on his reelection on this pol.

Agreed. I thought it was an incredible compromise – short of a veto, I didn’t think Obama would’ve been able to prevent the upper class tax cuts from happening and I didn’t think it was worth it to veto (too many possible ways that could backfire). Considering that, that Obama was able to get anything out of McConnell was, I felt, a huge victory. To get as much as he did was even better. Then he shows up and yells at the Liberal wing… he’s got to stop treating them like children.

Michael Scherer:
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Come on.
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You’re seriously going to claim that liberal Democrats are in favor of a big cut in the Estate Tax, and a special, extra-bonus big cut in the income taxes of the wealthiest?
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Seriously?
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Nobody could claim that, not even those who ran this poll.
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People are being asked about unnamed, un-described “tax cuts” in the same breath that they’re being asked about unemployment benefits.
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Unemployment benefits have been polling high amongst every political category for the entire year.
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From a month ago:

Large majority supports extending unemployment benefits, new poll shows
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* November 15th, 2010 4:14 pm ET
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Voters support Congress continuing the federal extensions of unemployment benefits by a majority of 60% to 37%, according to a report released today by the National Employment Law Project.
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The report is based on a poll conducted by researchers at Hart Research Associates, who interviewed 802 registered voters across the country between November 5th and November 8th, 2010.
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“There is deep public support for continuing the federal unemployment programs at a time when unemployment is at 9.6% and millions are still out of work,” said Christine Owens, NELP’s Executive Director.
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“Support for continuing these programs trumps concerns about the deficit,” she added.

From five months ago:

July 19, 2010, 1:38 pm
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Polls Find Wide Support For Jobless Benefit Extension
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By DALIA SUSSMAN
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The issue of extending the duration of benefits for the unemployed could be a winning one for the White House and congressional Democrats: two national polls published last week suggest that most Americans are on their side of this debate.
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The two polls that found a majority of Americans favor extending the benefits were from CBS News and ABC News/Washington Post.

In the CBS News survey, 52 percent of respondents said Congress should extend unemployment benefits for people currently out of work, even if it meant increasing the budget deficit. Thirty-nine percent disagreed, and the rest said “it depends” or gave no opinion.
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Broken down by party affiliation, about 7 in 10 Democrats said they supported an extension, while most Republicans said they opposed it. Independents were more evenly divided, with 47 percent in favor and 42 percent opposed.
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The ABC News/Washington Post poll asked the question a little differently, and found even more support for an extension of unemployment benefits. The question noted that Congress had previously extended benefits because of the economic downturn, and was considering extending them again. It also presented capsules of each side of the debate, noting that supporters of the extension say it “will help those who can’t find work” while opponents say it “adds too much to the federal budget deficit.”
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The result: 62 percent of respondents said Congress should approve another extension, while 36 percent said it should not. Those in favor included 80 percent of Democrats and 59 percent of independents, as well as 43 percent of Republicans.

And let’s not forget: by describing these as “tax cuts,” Pew isn’t differentiating between the cut to the Estate tax or the top rate earners’ tax cut, and the “middle class tax cut” the President ran successfully on!
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The tax cut on income at $250,000 or below has also polled well for months. Do I even need to cite polling data for that overwhelmingly popular idea?
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OK, here goes anyway:

THE HILL POLL: Democrats have edge on question of extending Bush tax cuts
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By Russell Berman – 10/13/10 05:10 PM ET
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Voters in 10 battleground congressional districts strongly back a plan to extend the George W. Bush-era tax cuts only for families earning less than $250,000 a year, according to The Hill 2010 Midterm Election poll.


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The survey of likely voters in 10 states found rare bipartisan support for the position of President Obama and Democratic Party leaders, who oppose extending the tax cuts for the top income brackets.

In light of polling numbers which have been consistent for months and months, it’s ludicrous for Pew to now not ask voters about which tax cuts they prefer, or to not even mention which tax cuts are included in the deal.
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What percentage of those asked believed that what has been sold as the “middle class tax cut” was achieved by the deal? What percentage knew that the deal significantly lowered the tax on inherited wealth?
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So, on the one hand, respondents are being asked whether they oppose or support generic “tax cuts,” which may be the overwhelmingly popular “middle class” proposal, and on the other, they’re being asked whether they oppose or support the overwhelmingly popular extension of unemployment benefits.
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Why not just ask folks if they’re in favor of a deal in which voters get checks for $500 and puppy dogs are given homes?
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I’m sure even liberal Democrats might support that compromise, just as long as they know nothing else about the deal.
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You write:
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“Despite the noise by some on the left, this is not a sign that Obama is jeopardizing the support of his base.”
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Really?
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That is your analysis?
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Nothing interesting about this poll or these questions jumps out at you?
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Seriously, Michael Scherer?
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These are your thoughts on the matter?

Hmmmm, yes, well, of course there were some bones thrown to liberals. But despite my unwavering support for Obama since early in the primaries, this deal profoundly disappoints me.

I think that a political cartoonist got it right when he pictured a group of poker players holding two cards each, and one of them, Obama, abruptly says “I fold,” eliciting from another player, “All the cards haven’t been dealt yet.” And they weren’t playing Texas Hold ‘em, but Five Card Draw, with threee cards yet to come, a bet , and then the option to exchange (“draw”) up to three more cards, after discarding three .

Obama and his advisors might have had a lot of private information leading them to believe that the “deal” from the Republicans was as good as they could get. But the capitulation (the “fold”) was surely premature.

In addition to a terrible effect on the deficit, this deal gives an absolutely indefensible break to the wealthy. Okay, so go ahead and negotiate. Try exempting only those with annual revenue of $1M or less instead of the $250/500,000 initially proposed. The fact of the matter is that literally dozens of first-world democracies levy taxes higher then ours on the wealthiest citizens. And that bite out of their sometimes fabulous riches rarely subverts either their spending or their investment.

It’s already a truism that the gap between rich and poor in the U.S. has been growing to unprecedented width for years.

Under these circumstances, how on earth could Obama have folded so easily?

rnewman9

I question the assumption that Micheal Scherer is doing unbiased reporting too.
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That may be correct, but I’m not so sure that this measure is that popular.
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Having MS try to read Dem tea leaves through his rosy red glasses leave me pretty much unmoved.

I think on further reflection there are a couple things I would say.
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The first is to Micheal Scherer:
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You are wearing blinders. They don’t allow you to see much to your left very clearly. Granted, the rebellion is fading, but it would have better to describe it as “Almost Was”.
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The second is that Obama built his entire career on compromise, and hindsight tells me I shouldn’t have expected him to be different from what he was before. Though I personally don’t like the agreement, I can live with it.
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I think that Obama has done a great job. I’m not happy, but still, I project my own feelings.
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On the other hand, keep in mind, GOPers, that the last election was not a referendum on the GOP platform. Beeny is going to learn the hard way.
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Hostage taking is one thing, but if you don’t learn how to properly govern, you may just find that you are still the tail and the dog may yet have the last bark…

Scherer, with another swing-and-a-miss!

From the Washington Post-ABC News poll Scherer and Sargent pull their results from:

The high bipartisan support for the package masks more tepid public approval for some of the main components of the agreement that comes before a key Senate vote Monday afternoon.

A slender 11 percent of those polled back all four of the deal’s primary tax provisions: an across-the-board extension of Bush-era tax cuts, additional jobless benefits, a payroll tax holiday and a $5 million threshold for inheritance taxes. Just 38 percent support even two of the components.

The poll itself is here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/polls/postpoll_12132010.html

When you break it all down:

a. Extending the Bush-era tax cuts for all taxpayers, including wealthy people as well as the middle class:

Support 54 Oppose 42

b. Funding an additional 13 months of unemployment benefits for people who are out of work

Support 72 Oppose 26

c. Cutting Social Security payroll taxes by two percentage points for all workers for the next year

Support 39 Oppose 57

d. Increasing the exemption on inheritance taxes so that only estates worth more than five million dollars are taxed

Support 52 Oppose 41

And you wonder why people don’t exactly trust the straight media, Michael.

ABC/WaPo Poll is basically saying the same thing:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/13/AR2010121302373.html

A slender 11 percent of those polled back all four of the deal’s primary tax provisions: an across-the-board extension of Bush-era tax cuts, additional jobless benefits, a payroll tax holiday and a $5 million threshold for inheritance taxes. Just 38 percent support even two of the components.

But put all four items together, and 69 percent of all Americans support the package. Large majorities of Democrats, Republicans and independents alike favor the agreement, which has drawn stiff opposition from some Democrats in the House. In the poll, 69 percent of liberal Democrats support the agreement, which Obama has called a framework for legislation.

Even when primary objections to the pact are mentioned – that it would add about $900 billion to the federal budget deficit and that it extends tax breaks to the wealthy – 62 percent of all those polled support the package.

Stuart, see the links @10, below. Scherer’s being fatuous again…along with a lot of others. The fix is in, apparently.

I think that the term “support” is a semantic issue.
I think it is more like 60% conceded that they could not get a better compromise under the circumstances and chose to trust both Obama and Clinton to understand the situation better than they, seeing as how they are both extremely intelligent men who they support and voted for, or simply don’t know that much about the issue but support it because Obama supports it.

Stuart and Grape, I think you are trying too hard on this one. You are correct: Liberals don’t like tax breaks for the wealthy, and they like unemployment insurance extensions and tax breaks for the lower middle class, but that is not the issue here. The issue is whether they are willing to trade one for the other. And they are. That is what the question asks. The fact is liberals do support compromising their principals to get something else.

You missed when the question was asked when you put all four items together.

You missed when the question was asked when you separated all four items.

Nobody in Washington is seriously considering the obvious and logical alternative to austerity and needlessly cutting social services: gut the Pentagon budget and tax the rich
http://sherrytalksback.wordpress.com/2010/12/13/treating-the-poor-like-lab-rats/

No I didn’t you covered it. And you missed when they combine all four items as this deal does.

“The fact is liberals do support compromising their principals to get something else.”
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I see. Thanks for clearing that up Michael. What an epiphany–I guess I’m something else then. I mean, with a sweeping declaration like that, identity crises all around.
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I’ll tell you one thing–the village will find out about the loyalties of Obama’s base in 2012.

Thank you so much for responding to commentary, Michael Scherer, it is always greatly appreciated.

While I find that to be a good option, its an option for later. The defense budget makes up a significant portion of our economy, unfortunately. Outright cutting the programs would lead to massive layoffs and a higher unemployment rate.

But, I’d be all for taxing the rich a little more until we can get there.

No I didn’t Scherer covered it. And you missed when when you separated all four items.

I missed Crystal Pepsi. Never even new it existed until it didn’t.

Michael Scherer:
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Just for the record, when you say:
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“The issue is whether they are willing to trade one for the other. And they are. That is what the question asks.”
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, that’s not literally what the question asks, unless you’ve seen some other question than I have.
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It is certainly reasonable of you to try to explain how public attitudes toward the individual policies have done complete, one-eighty degree turnarounds, when people believe that the policies they favor are being held hostage, I will concede that possibility.
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One other thing is that it’s interesting how this deal has taken on a supremely establishment flavor, how closely coverage of it resembles the “inevitability” of other policies that have long since fallen into public disfavor.
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If I had to wager, I would bet that this deal becomes an iconic item in a future Dem’s campaign platform. Some Dem candidate in some cycle to come will trumpet their opposition to the Obama-GOP tax deal, others will have to dance their way around having voted for it.
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It’s the new Iraq AUMF, in other words.
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Thanks once again for some extended analysis, Michael Scherer.

Look Grape we can argue till we are both exhausted. Yes you are correct when taken separately Dems don’t like it, but when taken as a whole they do.

Your position I am guessing is that Dems can hold out until the 11th hour, keep saying no and in the end get a better result. My thinking says they get a worse deal because it is the 11th hour or no deal at all.

And the larger point is maybe that the Dem controlled Congress should have gotten off their damn scared asses and voted before the mid-terms on this when they had the leverage instead of waiting until after when they had lost the high ground. When you screw yourself I am hard pressed to feel a lot of sympathy.

Outright cutting the (defense) programs would lead to massive layoffs and a higher unemployment rate.
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While that is true, gumOnShoe, I am very much against treating defense as a jobs program (the only one our elected and Village sages seem willing to acknowledge).
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Make outright cuts. First, our nation’s security is too important for defense to be saddled with any other considerations. Defense spending should be equal to risk- no more, no less.
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Second, the military is too inefficient and expensive to be considered a good provider of jobs. Too often we hear of $400 hammers, or similarly ridiculous things. Also, we end up with unnecessary weapons (like the multiple launch rocket system or F-22 jet) because they are built in multiple states. And much of the money spent ends up in foreign hands (ie. Haliburton headquartered in Dubai, infrastructure for Afghan police) or in trust fund accounts via executive bonuses.
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Having our soldiers (and Army Corps of Engineers) come home to oversee, and hire civilians for, upgrades to our air and sea ports, borders, commuter stations… now we’ve got something. Less expensive, more jobs.

I think this poll is skewed since it does not include that the – to use the Tea Party language, but far more appropriately due to the week long time frame rather than the fourteen month obsessive examination HCR got and support for some kind of HCR – tax breaks got SHOVED DOWN OUR THROATS.
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Many tolerate giving away to the wealthiest in exchange for peace in the congress.
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Then people wonder why Democrats get labeled as spineless wimps.
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Thanks Barack. You’re turning yourself into a Republican caricature of yourself.
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Republicans won by obstruction. Democrats lose by compromise.
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Eventually, the sloppy end result of poorly negotiate compromise gets labeled “Democratic” (as with the stimulus package and HCR) and elections get handed over the Republicans on a silver platter.

It’s the new Iraq AUMF, in other words.
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And similarly, it’s being pushed just as hard in order to get it done now, before the facts behind it are fully examined.
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That is what the question asks.
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Where?
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The issue is…
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Says who? You?
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What’s sad is that even if your(?) analysis was solid, a similar portion of Tea Partiers all up in arms about this would generate near-nonstop coverage of the ‘controversy’ ‘real people’ were ‘concerned’ about.

I was going to reply directly to a couple of the above comments and then I thought why waste my time.
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All of you Swamp Liberals are so far out in Left field that you cannot even see the majority of Americans standing in the middle of our political system. Thank goodness you are such a small part of our population. Polls show 15-20 of our citizen’s say they are liberals. Extreme Liberals like you guys and gals on the Swamp are probably no more than 5% at best.
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For those of you who did not understand the message from the American voters on Nov. 2nd, they now know who you are and what you are about. They will never again let you near the seat of power of our great nation again. You are history.

Your position I am guessing is that Dems can hold out until the 11th hour, keep saying no and in the end get a better result.
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My position is that this is the wrong package that won’t solve our problems (something that those polls actually agree with me on) and is being shoved down our throats before we get a good whiff of how bad it actually is.
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As for a better end result, that’s something everyone wants. The problem is with how ‘better end result’ is defined.

…Also sprach Zarathustra.

I consider myself a Liberal. I can also be considered a fiscal conservative. How do these two philosophies meet? I am all for protecting and supporting those who can not care for themselves. I also dislike the government paying its bills on a credit card. A payroll tax deduction? Really? When conservatives would like nothing better but another excuse to gut social security–Obama gives it to them?
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This country needs a strong social security network, a strong education system, a stronger infrastructure and a smaller military. I say we gut the military down to a size needed to protect homeland and embassies, get out of the business of policing the world. Put people to work rebuilding our schools, our roads, our electrical grid. Improve education by hiring the best possible to teach our children from K-12, give underperforming students an incentive to stay in school. Offer a free two year degree to every student who can maintain average grades and who meet specific income guidelines–up to about $100,000. And tax the population at about 1950s levels to pay for it.

But establishment politicians, Larry Summers and all major media outlets are in love with the Obama-GOP tax deal. That can’t be bad, can it?

“Stuart and Grape, I think you are trying too hard on this one. You are correct: Liberals don’t like tax breaks for the wealthy, and they like unemployment insurance extensions and tax breaks for the lower middle class, but that is not the issue here. The issue is whether they are willing to trade one for the other. And they are. That is what the question asks. The fact is liberals do support compromising their principals to get something else.”
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I seriously and honestly don’t think so. People like compromise when they don’t know the details and they don’t like deathpanels and such when they’re not informed.
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Let me put on the ‘blame the media’ hat for a little and illustrate it. A majority of Americans believed that Saddam had something to do with 9/11. Not until media got serious about stopping circling the wagons and k!ssing previous administrations @ss did people slowly turn.
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Same with HC. When people hear the details, they like it, when they hear the he/she said BS from media they’re confused and they feel they’re not getting what they paid for.
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Same with the tax cut. I suggest that if people truly heard the true and delightful Bernie floor slam with media spending the entire weekend including today in perfect small soundbites they would think differently.
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media on the other hand spend an absorbent amount analysing just how much Obama bent over, how far GOPs fist reached and whether or not they could tell what lunch he had (or if they found the hidden birth certificate). Journalists have turned into pundits that spend more time checking out the drapes than informing people what’s going on.
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I was hoping for a frontpage about Bernie lecturing the righties when I got into the office this Morning but instead it was a front page about how trounced our football team got.
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Why didn’t media highlight the fact that Bernie took a unheard of for decades measure to get his message out? Instead it was, oh look, he’s not just pretend doing it like the republicans have done for 2 years now but lest cut over to Bill Clinton because this guys is such a bummer.
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You don’t analyse WHY the numbers show the way it does based on the fact that every single informed political junkie shows the kind of disgust they do – instead you take numbers, data and form a meme around it. That most democrats are just a-okay when there’s an absolute lack of coverage of any dissenting voice. Instead the dissent is frowned upon as if they’re a bunch of hippies and radical leftist rather than a concerned, well informed group of people who actually pay attention to details.
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That’s your job. We have enough information flunkies out there making a mountain out of mash potatoes. What we need is a bunch of journalists that dig into facts instead of calling it in after the lunch break.
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I am not a liberal reactionary with a communist flag in the basement mr comrade. I’m just your average American seeing my entire neighbor hood over run with for sales signs because we’re to afraid to raise taxes and put our money down on this country while others are taking the interest money we pay on those loans we take out and invest it in brand new infrastructure and technology until they choak our tired old bones.
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I bet if media did it’s job instead of such a sloppy work telling us ‘what they think’ they would find a very p!ssed off nation that finally realized just how sold down the drain we really are.
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Look at the damn question! Would you honestly have ANY clue what the heck that was about without the context?
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You’re talking about people who believed Saddam had WMDs and that Sarah can see Russia from her front porch. Lets try a little harder.

erieangel, be prepared for RW’ers asking how you’ll pay for these (very good) policies. Here’s some ideas to fight ‘em back:
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1) Eliminate the Social Security cap, even in return for a lower rqate. Everyone pays something into the kitty regardless of income… and at lower rate to boot.
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2) Many support tax reform, same here in order to get everyone to pay their fair share, literally …esp. the S corp’s that game the current system (see Keith Olbermann’s show archives, he covered this a lot). For now, I’d support a flat tax with few exemptions, preferably none, above a floor income well above the poverty line. Again at a lower rate for all, but no one skips paying. Socialism rules!!!
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3) and of course, end the wars and bring everyone home alive. Save money too, but I digress. Pay down some debt or fund infrastructure with leftover money.
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What are your top picks to fund a more efficient, more compassionate govt., erie? Now good luck and slay those fire-breathing conservative dragons.

Reading and listening to liberals about this tax deal is a lot like the joke (Coyote Ugly) about guys getting drunk enough at a bar taking her home and waking up and would eat there are off to get away in the morning. You looked at a candidate through drunken diversity glasses got him home and when you woke up with the cold slap in the face of the last election you are eating your arm off trying to get away.
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The left still won’t admit the first and primary goal they have is to raise taxes- period. And of course its for the children. And for what? create jobs? how? tax the rich. build infrastructure? how? tax the rich. improve education? how? tax the rich? Secure social security? how/ tax the rich. Fix medicare? how? tax the rich.HC for all? how? come on say it with me—-tax the rich.

Let’s see you tax the rich, who already pay over 60% of the taxes, for at least 6 entitlement programs and you don’t even touch the deficit. Do the math you can tax 100% of all income and you will not reduce the debt and deficits unless you end spending.
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Now you torture questions in polls, who wrote them, do the people understand them etc everything ut the only real question. Look at your self in the mirror and accept the truth, your political philosophy is bankrupt and its only a small number of extreme nut jobs who actually believe progressive philosophy is anything but a shame. The biggest lies remain the one you keep telling yourself.

You’re an idiot!

Look at your self in the mirror and accept the truth….
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Ironic that you write that, free (yep, you still lost that bet)….

3X,
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How do you explain that there are 55 million Republicans to 72 Million Democrats if America is so conservative?
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http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/U.S._party_affiliation.svg
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Clearly, once again, you are so blinded by the right that you have no idea where reality is.

Decon,
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I think a Nietzsche reference would go over 3X’s head.

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But I liked it.

“You looked at a candidate through drunken diversity glasses got him home and when you woke up with the cold slap in the face of the last election you are eating your arm off trying to get away.”
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And that’s how unqualified Al Sharpton became our president.
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No, I mean, that’s how Jessie Jackson became our president.
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No, I mean that’s how Shirley Chisholm became our president.
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Wait a second!
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Obama had been a US Senator. He had been a state senator. He was a constitutional lawyer. He had more credentials than Ronald Reagan or George Jr to become president.
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So, you are a moron, Freakinpa.
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Clearly he is qualified, he promised and made partial delivery (watered down by third way politics, just like Clinton) on what the people said they wanted before he was even a US Senator.
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In other words, you can not believe a black man (or, in this case a man who is half black) could possibly be chosen for his brains.
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Then you wonder why people think you might be a racist.
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“The left still won’t admit the first and primary goal they have is to raise taxes- period.”
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If you water board somebody long enough they will tell you any lie you wish to hear, but, we managed to keep water boarding down to suspected terrorists who, often gave us completely false confessions.
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Show me the money!
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We agree in social security, welfare, unemployment benefits, defense, road construction, public education and we are doing it at a deficit. Show me where the money is hiding to pay for this without raising taxes.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fy2010_spending_by_category.jpg
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Take look for yourself.
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Every time you ask a Republican how to cut the deficit without raising the deficit or destroying this country their answer is consistently this:
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Don’t forget, freak, we all here know that you have no honor.
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You break promises due to a total lack of respect for anybody but yourself.

Patrick,
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“How do you explain that there are 55 million Republicans to 72 Million Democrats if America is so conservative?”
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I don’t know why I waste my time communicating with a person that has AD.
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If you had read my post you would have seen I was referring to Liberals not Democrats.
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My Post.
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“Thank goodness you are such a small part of our population. Polls show 15-20 of our citizen’s say they are liberals. Extreme Liberals like you guys and gals on the Swamp are probably no more than 5% at best.”
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Regarding your statistics, which are probably out of date, Moderate Democrats are closer in their political beliefs to Republicans than to liberals. Remember the Reagan Democrats and let’s not forget the results of the November election when many Democrats rejected liberalism and most Independents voted for Republicans.
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Now you will come back with your Google’s and give all kind of irrelevant supposed facts and try and make your case through 3 pages of comments to end up saying nothing of importance but lot of meaningless word as it the sheer volume of your posts was going to show anything worth reading. When I see your long winded posts I skip right by them without bothering to read them. I suspect that most other people do the same.
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Patrick, you really need to get a real life.

Exactly what did you like about the Nietzsche reference Patty? You phony.
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I am absolutely sure that YOU have NO clue what the influence of Nietzsche on society has been and what it has caused.

Patty, water boarding? WTF? Next you idiots will say that Nancy Pelosi was water boarded and that’s why she voted to extend the Bush tax cuts. Too bad Obama can’t claim anything that would actually help the economy, huh? It’s makes you want to cry.

I’m all for eliminating the social security cap. I’m also for higher taxes. In fact, I’m looking forward to my taxes going up next month. I’m in the $20,000/$40,000 income level for it to happen. As much as I don’t mind paying taxes–because I know that my small contribution actually helps to pay for the salary of a soldier in Iraq, or provides a means for somebody who is unemployed to keep a roof over their head, or supports an elderly or disabled person–I’m pi$$ed that it is only people like me who will see this increase in taxes. Just like I have bills to pay, so does the government and they can’t do it on a credit card forever, nobody can.
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Taxes have to go back up to their previous levels eventually and the only people who are going to be complaining when it happens are those who can afford to pay a little bit more. My increase in taxes will mean that I won’t have a weekend to myself as I’ll probably have to go back working a second job to make ends meet. (I quit the last second job due to a heart attack brought on by exhaustion). Or it can mean no more dinners out or movie nights or one less tank of gas per week. I’m glad I don’t mind eating peanut butter and jelly because it may come to that some nights. What has my goat about it is that everybody isn’t being asked to make the same sacrifice.
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p.s. Sorry for the late response but I got home from work and went straight to bed. Boss is on vacation leaving me to run the department single handed.

Oh, and I’ve always been for a flat tax. No deductions for anybody. I despise the child tax credit. It means that somebody making $35,000 with no children ends up paying far more in taxes than his/her co-worker with 2 kids and way more than the one with 6 kids. That just doesn’t seem fair. Personally, I have no deductions. Kids are grown, house is mortgage-free, ect. I wouldn’t even bother to itemize charitable contributions because all I give is $5. a month to a fund at the place I work which helps clients in need. Oh, and then a co-worker recently lost everything he owned in a fire, I tossed the fund to help him and his family my movie money for the month. But then, I know about hardship, I was on social security disability all the while my kids were growing up. So I can live without a few things if it helps somebody who doesn’t have as much I have.

Great points you make. Sorry to hear about past health issues. I totally agree with everyone needing to make equal sacrifices to get thru these times.

Nice hearing the voices in this chorus.
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No one has been able yet to get Freeinpa to educate us about the “principles” he mentioned that compel him to turn up his nose at the prospect of doing something to garner conservative black voters.
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Either way freeinpa is warmer than a dumb rock on a windowsill, er, uh, dumber than a warm rock on a windowsill…

“If you had read my post you would have seen I was referring to Liberals not Democrats.”
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When you take into account two things then you will realize that your argument is moronic:
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1) Starting with Reagan the word “Liberal” (including when Bush Sr referred to it as “the L word”) became synonymous with a very extreme group of hippies, vegetarians, drug users and socialist, a huge portion of people who support ideas which are considered liberal prefer not to be associated with the cartoon image of this type of person.
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2) 100% of the ideas you are calling liberal are ones supported by the majority of the Democratic Party. You aren’t, say, trying to call animal rights activists unpopular (not a majority of Democrats support this).
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As for the accusation that I am Anno Domini, AD, yes, indeed I was born in 1971 AD.
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I know the undead like you born in the BC find ideas after the fall of the Roman Empire hard to understand.

“I am absolutely sure that YOU have NO clue what the influence of Nietzsche on society has been and what it has caused.”
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I know, you are going to take the completely unsupported Ayn Rand position that Nietzsche, not the conditions in Germany during the Wiemar Republic, that this was during a distinct phase of the late industrial period where nearly all goods were domestically made but not an agrarian nor early industrial economy, the conditions of the the Treaty of Versailles, the Anglo-American pseudo-science of Eugenics but aristocrat Freidrich Nietzsche.
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Besides your already accepting the mainstream POV of John Maynard Keynes that the Treaty of Versailles would cause an extreme nationalism in Germany, you now wish to dump it on a philosopher.
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I read Nietzsche in college. He distinctly opposed German Nationalism, held Jews in very high esteem, hated the Christian Religion (which Hitler made much use of) and, clearly, would have lead to totally different conclusions at least 50% of the time if one were not able to recognize that Nietzsche was, himself, very insane.
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Out of context quotes from Nietzsche are great such as “That which does not destroy me can only make me stronger”, “First you learn to crawl, then to walk and then to dance.” and “The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently.”.
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But he was very insane and was, at best, corrupted from his aristocrat beliefs by Hitler and the Nazi Party into a nationalism Nietzsche, himself, is unlikely to believe.
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Anything else rdw?

“Patty, water boarding?”
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Saying that Democrats like to raise taxes is as dumb as saying that Republicans like George W Bush and Herbert Hoover love to drive our economy into the ground.
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Since balancing the budget and not denying assistance to the poor and providing adequate regulation requires keeping taxes higher than they are now, for now raising taxes up to a top bracket of, possibly, 45% for people making, say, over a million dollars a year may be necessary.
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To say that taxes are an ends and not a means is a total lie.
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Water board people long enough and you can get them to say a lie.
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I brought that in as means of getting Democrats to “confess” a lie like that, I would bring up how GWB got people abroad to make false confessions: water boarding.

Sorry.
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That was meltdown writing like rdw56.

You missed the fact that Nietzsche also inspired Stalin and the left. The modern ideals of a super society come from Nietzsche. Obama is a big Nietzsche fan.
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Nietzsche inspired the post modern movement which continues to be the driving movement in the arts and the criticism of traditional societal values. Including the current notion of multi-culturalism, and the insistence of the left that there is no universal Truth: therefore no God.

Meltdown,
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Nietzsche believed in the aristocracy and the uber man.
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Stalin believed that the human brain was a blank slate all equally capable of everything depending upon what the government taught them.
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Nietzsche and Stalin were opposites.
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Hitler half used Nietzsche and faked the other half since Hitler was not related to aristocrats.
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Hitler and Stalin were, also, opposites.
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Ideologies which support murdering their own people in chronological order:
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Aristocracy/ Monarchy
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Theocracy.
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Communism.
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Fascism.
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Ideologies who believe murdering their own people is never in the best interest of the public:
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Democracy.
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Subsets of democracy:
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Liberal
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Conservative.
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If the fact that Hitler killed his own people (especially Jews, gypsies and gays who were German citizens) is proof that he is a follower of Nietzsche, then Ivan the Terrible centuries before Nietzsche’s birth, the Spanish Inquisition and the crusaders must have used a time machine and been taught this by Nietzsche’s writings.
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Obama is not a follower o Nietzsche. His policies are closest to those Alexander Hamilton and Abraham Lincoln (while GWB would have been best associated with Thomas Jefferson and John Adams).
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Jefferson and Adams are the roots of modern conservatives as Hamilton and Lincoln are the roots of modern progressives.
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Nietzsche inspired Freud and singer/song writer Jim Morison, but had no influence on American politics since Nietzsche hated democracy.

Patrick, It is a fallacy that Stalin and Hitler were opposites. They both thought that they could build a super society, even if it took extermination. And, Nietzsche inspired both.
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As I said Nietzsche’s philosophy gave birth to Post Modern thought which gave rise to multi-culteralism.
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Nietzsche has been one of the most distructive influences of the last two centuries. And Obama’s professor is on record, as is Obama that he studied Nietzsche.
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Nietzsche is the starting point for critiquing Modernism. His philosophies are still in use by the left today.
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His influence is cultural and political.