Tax Cut Extensions and 2012

With a deal to extend the Bush tax cuts for all income levels apparently imminent, there are a number of political implications for Obama’s re-election to consider. The most important is economic: The emerging deal is more-or-less stimulative. Leaving aside for a moment the option of only extending cuts on the first $250,000 in income, there’s a consensus that extending all the cuts is economically preferable to letting them all expire because doing the latter would simply leave people with less money to spend. Here’s Derek Thompson:

…without the extension, folks making $50,000 would see their after-tax income drop $1,000 next year. Who thinks that would increase buying, confidence, and economic growth in 2011?

Let’s also not forget that extending unemployment insurance, Obama’s chief demand at this point and a likely part of the end deal, is very efficient stimulus. It gets money to people who are incredibly likely to actually, you know, spend it. Of course getting the economy back on firmer footing is a national imperative, but it’s also crucial to Obama’s re-election prospects. And let’s face it: With long-term fiscal concerns, a Republican House and a filibustery Senate, Democrats have essentially no chance of pumping more money into the economy at once in the next two years. Ezra Klein:

The tax cuts for income over $250,000 will pump about $100 billion into the economy over the next two years….. Democrats look likely to get a 13-month extension of both unemployment insurance and many of the tax breaks built into the stimulus (Making Work Pay, the bump in the Earned Income Tax Credit and the Child Tax Credit, the business tax breaks and so on)….. this is a two-year stimulus package that approaches $300 billion.

There’s also the issue of when the cuts expire. Philip Klein lays out political scenarios if they were expire again in one, two or three years. He makes a number of good points, but his gist is this: One wouldn’t be too bad for Obama because it’d be minimal concession and an opportunity to re-fight the battle on possibly more favorable economic ground, two would be a disaster in the midst of the election and three would incense the left beyond repair.

A couple of points: With the recovery as stagnant as it is, it wouldn’t be wise to predict a significantly stronger economy in just one year. The weakness of the economy is the cause of Obama’s weak negotiating position to begin with (no credible threat of actually letting all the cuts expire), so one shouldn’t assume Democrats would be able to wage a drastically different battle next in 2011. As for two years from now, Klein may overstate public support for Republicans’ position on the top-tier cuts and the impact of liberal angst on Obama. Polling suggests the public isn’t in favor of extending cuts on $250,000 income and higher and an imminent election might make Obama more amenable to a soak-the-rich populist play. Counter-intuitively, a three-year extension might give Obama the strongest political hand. He wouldn’t have to worry about election-year politics playing into it and, most importantly, he could credibly threaten (or carry out) vetoing every bill that included an extension of the top-tier cuts. All that being said, every year the cuts are extended is incredibly expensive.

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  • http://therealestamerican.wordpress.com therealestamerican

    Its not a “Tax Cut Extension” its a “Tax-Payer Theft Prevention and Freedom Extender”
    .
    Silly liberal Lamestream Media, there ya go again…

  • http://gum0nshoe.wordpress.com gumOnShoe

    How is this in any way stimulative if it is the status quo?
    ·
    That feels off to me.
    ·
    If a deal can’t be reached, taxes go up automatically because Republicans chose to pass them in a way that would force the issue to come up again.
    ·
    If they do get extended, nothing changes, which is economically better than something negative happening.
    ·
    But, they simultaneously allow business owners to continue to pay their employers less money because the cost of living has adjusted to what taxes are now. If taxes go up, there will be more pressure from workers for businesses to spend more money on wages.
    ·
    Additionally, keeping taxes low prevents business owners from investing as much because they get more out of their businesses now in the short term than they would in the long term by keeping it going. Taxes are on income after all.
    ·
    Raising taxes will restrict income uncomfortably, yes, but if you are serious about balancing the budget, which I contend should be the least of your worries right now, you need the tax cuts to end.
    ·
    This is damage control, not stimulation.

  • Ivy_B

    All that being said, every year the cuts are extended is incredibly expensive.

    It seems to me that this is the most important point that shouldn’t be left to a last sentence aside.

    From Krugman –

    America, however, cannot afford to make those cuts permanent. We’re talking about almost $4 trillion in lost revenue just over the next decade; over the next 75 years, the revenue loss would be more than three times the entire projected Social Security shortfall. So giving in to Republican demands would mean risking a major fiscal crisis — a crisis that could be resolved only by making savage cuts in federal spending.

    So the potential cost of giving in to Republican demands is high. What about the costs of letting the tax cuts expire? To be sure, letting taxes rise in a depressed economy would do damage — but not as much as many people seem to think.

    A few months ago, the Congressional Budget Office released a report on the impact of various tax options. A two-year extension of the Bush tax cuts, it estimated, would lower the unemployment rate next year by between 0.1 and 0.3 percentage points compared with what it would be if the tax cuts were allowed to expire; the effect would be about twice as large in 2012. Those are significant numbers, but not huge — certainly not enough to justify the apocalyptic rhetoric one often hears about what will happen if the tax cuts are allowed to end on schedule.

    The tax cuts have been in place for the last ten years and have brought us to the terrible economy we have now. Why on earth would extending them make things better?

  • http://gum0nshoe.wordpress.com gumOnShoe

    I don’t think you could claim the tax cuts, as bad as they are for our budget are responsible for the lack of regulation & housing bubble. Now, maybe they added a bit of extra stimulative zing to the housing market and got a couple extra folks into trouble, but I still find that a little hard to believe that they caused it…
    ·
    If they are bad for us, at least argue points that make sense.

  • Ivy_B

    You are right. My statement implied that they were the only cause of the terrible economy and clearly as you point out they were not. They were a major cause of the deficits and helped the banking system go into crisis.
    .
    I hope that makes more sense to you.

  • http://gum0nshoe.wordpress.com gumOnShoe

    They were a major cause of the deficits and helped the banking system go into crisis.

    The first part I’m fine with & agree. Mind explaining the second part? Unless you are saying they helped make things unstable in the same way my “zing” comment implied I’d like to see how you got there…

  • freeinpa

    This is from an earlier post I did.

    Second little gem I discovered this weekend is from the American Institute for Economic Research (http://www.aier.org/- subscription required). They also put a harsh to the liberal mantra of tax cuts cause deficts.
    .

    In the 3 years after 2001 & 2003 when the tax law changes were passed and phased in, tax revenues increased dramatically. (And this is the best part) Taxes paid by millionaire households DOUBLED.
    .
    From 2003-2007 federal revenues from all income groups increased more than $700 billion.
    .
    Amount of capital gains and tax revenue from capital gains doubled between 2002-2006.
    .

    The liberals desperate irrational grab at higher taxes is just another failed excuse to raise spending under the guise of trying to balance the budget.

    .
    Not raising taxes is a loss of potential revenue and not a new expense. The Democrats concern over deficits is a farce. There will be no decline in deficits and debt without spending cuts. If we were to tax 100% of all income we would not eliminate the deficits.

  • http://gum0nshoe.wordpress.com gumOnShoe

    Freep, just as Ivy would be wrong to say taxes caused the good economy in the 90s you’d be wrong to say tax cuts caused an increase in revenue.
    ·
    As far as I was aware GDP & the wealth gap both increased in the last 10 years, which would signal to me that millionaires were likely making more and had more taxable income. Along with the fact that average wages rose (even if not related above inflation), that would imply there was more taxable income overall.
    ·
    You, and that study, found two correlated facts and tried to imply they were related, which is fraudulent.
    ·
    My guess is that either less people were ducking the rules or people were making more money. If its the first, that merely implies millionaires were more criminal in the past & if it is the second it implies nothing about reducing taxes unless you have a magical flow chart of all of the money that shows what happens when you add or remove taxes from the system.

  • Ivy_B

    gumonshoe, I think that the deficits helped to generate lack of faith in our economy and that caused some instability in the banking system and why the Fed took such draconian measures to try to back them up early on. I am several time zones away at the moment and don’t have the energy to look up news articles to try to support my point.
    .
    Rather than dimish my major concern, which was the parts from the Krugman column, since we can’t edit posts, please delete everything I said after the block quote. ends.

  • http://gum0nshoe.wordpress.com gumOnShoe

    Ok, that makes a little more sense to me. I could see how that my cause more problems at the point of crisis and make things worse, perhaps as a catalyst more than a cause, but that’s all semantics.
    ·
    Thank you for the ideas you presented. They were new to me and, as I usually do, I approached them with skepticism. If you ever do feel like like looking further into that line of thought I’d be interested in what you find, but I understand not wanting to get into it further.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Let’s use logic, Freakinpa.
    .
    If taxes on the wealthy suppress investment and job creation, then the job creation from the Bush tax cuts would cause more jobs to exist now as a long term benefit.
    .
    Since savings by the wealthy is extremely rarely used for direct investment such as starting or expanding a business, this money went into the housing bubble via mortgage backed securities and buying stock in companies like Countrywide.
    .
    When the bubble burst, most of that money vanished.
    .
    At low tide I could tell a fool like you that standing on your head for twelve hours will make the ocean come to you and, for twelve hours it would appear to be true. After 12 hours as the tide begins to ebb, you will discover that you have been duped.
    .
    All incomes went up during the bubble, so, tax revenues went up, too. Once the bubble burst and those savings by the wealthy get washed away as the value of their investments and home disappear, so do the revenues.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Ivy,
    .
    I believe you came to the correct conclusion, but not the argument I would agree with.
    .
    Excessive debt causes what economists call “crowding out” (please google for yourself, I spent too much time dealing RWD56 am momentarily lazy). That is that it drives up interest rates so that businesses and households may not borrow at a rate which would be profitable for businesses or within the budget of households. This did not happen. Interest rates remained low.
    .
    What did happen was that high income households not needing to spend every penny to get by, instead, invested in mortgage backed securities among other things.
    .
    With so much money to be made on mortgage backed securities and such a mania about them fueled in a major part by high income households seeking to invest in them and regulators as well as regulations outdated and asleep at the wheel, mortgages were given for very overpriced property (overpriced in terms of who can afford to pay a mortgage – not a subjective standard) and housing prices were artificially increased by this demand for this investment.
    .
    When the bubble burst, in addition to the high income families losing their investment due to totally lacking due diligence on the parts of many in the mortgage business, middle and lower income households foreclosed upon faced massive losses they would not have faced if the bubble did not exist.
    .
    So, it went from excessive savings creating pressure on the market for mortgage backed securities. This, along with unethical behavior, poor oversight and outdated regulations put pressure on mortgage brokers to give loans to unqualified individuals. These unqualified individuals along with qualified individuals bid up the housing prices higher than they would be if loans were exclusively given to those who could afford to pay back the loans.
    .
    This, in turn – sometimes to irresponsible borrowers but, sometimes, to people who were responsible but lost their job in the recession tied to the meltdown – caused the middle and lower income borrowers to lose their homes and all other home owners to lose their home equity credit line. So, for those foreclosed on, they have severe loss of wealth and stopped spending. For those who subsidized their spending with home equity loans had to decrease spending not only due to not getting money out of their homes, but, instead, using a portion of their income to pay off home equity loans.
    .
    Note, the excessive availability of home equity loans was, in part, caused by the increased savings by the wealthy going into mortgage backed securities as home equity loans are secondary mortgage backed securities.
    .
    So, the short answer is, yes, I do believe that you are right.

  • http://gum0nshoe.wordpress.com gumOnShoe

    Patrick, so you’re saying the now untaxed wealth of the rich went into these investments, and that there would have been less money to do such otherwise?
    ·
    Was there really that much extra money floating around and did enough people really simultaneously invest that “extra” money into mortgages?
    ·
    I’m sorry, but I’ve just never heard this theory before. Patrick, if you have some sources, I’d appreciate seeing them, and possibly an answer leaning towards brevity.

  • freeinpa

    “Freep, just as Ivy would be wrong to say taxes caused the good economy in the 90s you’d be wrong to say tax cuts caused an increase in revenue”
    .
    Well you are certainly entitled to your opinion. However the American Institute for Economic Research disagrees with you. Lower marginal rates not only added to GDP growth but also removed a disincentive to earn higher income. End result tax cuts on marginal rates and cap gains resulted in higher revenues.

  • freeinpa

    “I’m sorry, but I’ve just never heard this theory before. Patrick, if you have some sources, I’d appreciate seeing them, and possibly an answer leaning towards brevity.”
    .
    You are no alone. Mortgaged-back Securities (MBS) were bought up by pension plans, endowment funds and insurance companies( domestically and overseas). They struggled in the low interest rate environment to obtain yield so they invested in MBS and took the credit rating at face value. Funds such as these were doing some asset-liability matching with these securities. It worked until the bubble popped.
    .
    Patrick makes the mistake many on the left do in equating the “wealthy” with pension funds, endowments and insurance companies where taxable securities are not an issue. The ultra high net worth more typically invest municipals bonds which are tax -free.

  • http://gum0nshoe.wordpress.com gumOnShoe

    While they claim to be non-partisan, I am identifying a common “lean right” mentality from many of the authors that contribute to their journal. I also found them listed as a “think tank” and related to the WSJ, commonly viewed as leaning right.
    ·
    So, while it may be my opinion. My quick perusal of the evidence leads me to believe there is something not particularly trustful about the group.
    ·
    That said, the barrier to entry being lifted on the upper incomes would explain the growing divergence in wealth. Though, I honestly can’t think of anyone being willing to turn down that kind of money, if it were sickly true, and a company choose to give its leaders more money at the top more often the wage stagnation could have easily lead to people not being able to keep up with loans on at a higher rate. This is speculative, but if that were the case, you might be able to make an argument for higher taxes as a pressure mechanism for keeping income balanced (read not equal, but still fairly distributed) and raising the incomes of those in the lower incomes.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Patrick makes the mistake many on the left do in equating the “wealthy” with pension funds, endowments and insurance companies…”
    .
    As usual, you are doing two things:
    .
    First, putting words in my mouth since I never mentioned pension funds (often union members and government employees since it is less common for private non-union business) and endowments.
    .
    Second, “on the left” implies that this was more than just one individual who said this.
    .
    I am seeking to find out what types of entities owned more mortgage backed securities than others. It was my understanding that it was owned as much or more by households earning over $250k per year and their 401ks as other entities, but have not found a clear explanation as to who lost money more.
    .
    Freak makes another mistake: stating that endowments and pension funds were, proportionately greater owners of mortgage backed securities more than households earning over $250k without any evidence of such.

  • lilaland

    If we want to create jobs,giving hand outs to the rich in the form of unlimited tax cuts is a piss poor way. That clearly does not work. Job growth is created by demand for product. Giving the ri…ch and mega corporations more money in tax cuts creates a false impression of demand and profit to wallstreet. Capitalism is not working because the masses are not making selection by purchasing the best products and businesses. The stocks go up because they report profit but the profit is not real and main street receives very little of the trickle down because the money being reported is not coming from real demand so new jobs are not created to meet real demand. Innovation is stifled when we give too much corporate welfare. And that is what the Bush tax cuts are. Monopolies dominate and suffocate fresh entrepreneurship and false profit creates bubbles that bust. GM is a poetic example of the failures of capitalism when we give years and years of corporate welfare. Corporations get the dreaded “welfare syndrome” that republicans point out about individuals who stay on the governmental tit too long. Real innovation and creativity become stifled when we give corporations more and more tax break money “flushes” instead of them truly growing and profiting because they are an innovative superior company that creates the best product.
    Wall street is propped up by a big lie.. and, main street see little real job growth.

    Instead of handing over tax breaks to all corporations.. reward the businesses that actually create American jobs. Now that is trickle down we could believe in.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    This should clear this up at least partially:
    .
    Top 1 percent Next 9 percent Bottom 90 percent
    .
    Financial securities 60.6% 37.9% 1.5%
    .
    http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html
    .
    It is table 2.
    .
    If the pre Bush tax cut had the top 2% keeping 60% of their income and the tax cuts changed that to 70% then 70/60 = 1.10333 or a 10.333333333% increase.
    .
    Ignoring that proportionately slightly more would go into investment, if 60% of all securities are owned by the top 1%, then this would be just over a 6% increase in the amount of money going into all securities investments, including mortgage backed securities.
    .
    Hence, 6% more investment money chasing the same return on investment creates an over-evaluation of securities as well as pressure on mortgage providers to fudge the numbers.
    .
    It makes more sense than anything I have run across for why the market bubbled.

  • freeinpa

    “Ignoring that proportionately slightly more would go into investment, if 60% of all securities are owned by the top 1%, then this would be just over a 6% increase in the amount of money going into all securities investments, including mortgage backed securities.”
    .
    Supposition, assumptions and no evidence. The article for the socialist of UCSC was even more tedious than your usual diatribes. I only scanned it breifly but saw NO mention of MBS.
    .
    “First, putting words in my mouth since I never mentioned pension funds (often union members and government employees since it is less common for private non-union business) and endowments.
    .
    Second, “on the left” implies that this was more than just one individual who said this”

    .
    I see reading comprehension is still a problem. I am not putting words in your mouth I said pension funds and second there has been more than one person making that assumption. Just a hit the world does not begin and end here with you.
    .
    So stick with things you can comprehend which should make your list quite short

  • freeinpa

    “While they claim to be non-partisan, I am identifying a common “lean right” mentality from many of the authors that contribute to their journal. I also found them listed as a “think tank” and related to the WSJ, commonly viewed as leaning right.”
    .
    . Well then they must be Satan. So in truth you are not interested in an answer you are interested in an answer you can agree with provided by someone with the same mind set.
    .

  • http://gum0nshoe.wordpress.com gumOnShoe

    No, I am interested in an answer, but I am skeptical and I feel for good reason. I didn’t see any compelling evidence that pointed to tax cuts as the actual literal cause of tax increases.
    ·
    My reason for skepticism mainly is evident in this graph here. If you take a look at the where the Bush tax cuts were implemented, you’ll see that GDP continued to grow faster than tax revenue, and that in fact, tax revenue per GDP went down, which seems to mean to me that revenue could have been much higher. Since GDP was on its way up, it seems to be the more likely cause of increased revenue, especially since we were exiting a recession.
    ·
    You’ll also find graphs on those websites which demonstrate the wealth gaps, effects of debt on families of various incomes, etc.
    ·
    The data all comes from government collections.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “…I said pension funds and second there has been more than one person making that assumption…”
    .
    So reactions to me are not really about me, but about other people like those voices in your head which keep on saying that they want to redistribute wealth and take everything from you.
    .
    Well, next time please say that you are writing about those voices in your head since I found it irritating to have you claim that I said pension funds are only for the wealthy since I would never make such a statement.
    .
    I have shown what the top 1% does with some of their money – put it into securities.
    .
    I, also, have presented that the top 1% represents 60% of the stock market as the 2nd percent, also, represents a large amount, too.

  • lilaland

    Sen. Sherrod Brown speaks for me! I saw him on CNN and I could tell he felt my pain and was of the same heart, mind and gut intuition that I am. I’m not sure what his vote will be, in the end he will probably prove to be a loyalist to his president and give him the benefit of the doubt.. but with a heavy heart and a head and gut that warn him of danger. We can not go any more than 2 years with this deficit spiral spending. Even the 2 years is going to deeply cost our nation.

    I can tell you though.. It gave me hope to see that their are law makers who represent my core principals has a democrat.

    I’m not sure what they can do.. but i hope they can explain to Obama why he is traveling such a dangerous path.. a path we can surely not sustain for much longer. We are bleeding lady liberty dry so bloated rich fat vampires and feast for another two years.

  • 3xfire3

    lilaland,
    .
    I’m from Ohio and sadly I must admit that Senator Sherrod Brown is from Ohio. He is pretty much a Socialist in his political views. If he had been up for re-election this past election he would have been defeated by a landslide.
    .
    You must be very extreme in your L/P views to relate to Sen. Brown.

  • freeinpa

    “you’ll see that GDP continued to grow faster than tax revenue, and that in fact, tax revenue per GDP went down, which seems to mean to me that revenue could have been much higher. Since GDP was on its way up, it seems to be the more likely cause of increased revenue, especially since we were exiting a recession.”
    .
    See you have discovered the secret of life. The tax cuts spurred economic growth which raises revenue. When GDP grows faster than tax revenues that is a good thing, it means growth is not be stunted by high tax rates.

    Historically taxes as percent of GDP had run about 18% regardless of the marginal tax rate. Spending is the key not tax rate. The link below show the relationship

    http://www.fundmasteryblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/wsj-tax-revenue-chart-ed-ah556b_ranso_20080519194014.gif

  • freeinpa


    I have shown what the top 1% does with some of their money – put it into securities.
    .
    I, also, have presented that the top 1% represents 60% of the stock market as the 2nd percent, also, represents a large amount, too.”
    .
    Neither of which has anything to do with MBS. You have gotten dumber.You have no idea what you read you answer questions that weren’t ask then just ramble on like a fool.

    Still Rev Jim, the college drop-out and all around loser.

  • abdullah69

    Politically it is a very strong move. If the economy improves, then it is the realism of Obama that brought it about. If the economy continues to stagnate, then it is Republicans’ intransigence which is to blame.

    Recovery is more about confidence than simply spending. If consumers (voters) start to feel that their elected leaders are actually working to improve their lives now rather than simply engaging in bitter partisan infighting to secure the benefits enjoyed by their more lucrative constituents, then confidence may improve.

  • http://gum0nshoe.wordpress.com gumOnShoe

    The data doesn’t say that GDP rose because of the tax cuts, it just says that GDP rose and the ratio of taxes to GDP fell year over year.
    .
    You are assuming things about the data that have not been proven. You are claiming a correlation means a causation. What you are saying is as craven as saying “taxes were cut because GDP increased because the ratio of taxes to GDP decreased.” The data doesn’t say why, it just shows what happened.
    .
    Anyone who has ever worked with statistics or mathematical or even logical proofs knows this.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Neither of which has anything to do with MBS.”
    .
    Freakinpa,
    .
    If you put down the crack pipe long enough to read, if 60% of all securities are owned by the top 1% then it is likely that 60% of Mortgage backed securities were, too.
    .
    A ten percent increase in post tax income, therefore, could cause a 10% increase in the amount of money invested in all securities including, unless you know of a reason to say otherwise, Mortgage backed securities.

  • Art Pepper

    The emerging deal is more-or-less stimulative.

    Mostly less, but what the hey.

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