Israel First, Yet Again

Hard to get tumescent into a news story. FTW!

We do not give a damn about the interests of the US, only that of the GOP.
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God Joe, we have been over and over this.

“But here we have the Republicans, newly tumescent with their House majority, attempting to interpose themselves on the side of Israel against the President.”

They want their members to stand up and be counted. Many hard choices have to be made. They won’t take this lying down. The anger is evident. They need to soften their stance. Blood rushing to their heads may look good to their fellow Tea Baggers, but they need to take it slow before their actions result in another sticky mess.

A vast majority of the US Congress has been bribed by various Jewish organizations, through financial contributions, to support Israel even when they are in violation of UN and US/Israel agreements. That is unconsciousable. US Foreign Policy should not be dictated by Israel. It is not in the US interest to alienate moderate Arab countries and further instigate terrorists who view the US as anti-Muslim and anti-Arab. A more balanced foreign policy is absolutely essential, including the establishment of a Palestinian state.
I was particularly offended when Representative Eric Cantor called Rhamm Emanuel to ask that the Administration go lightly with Israel when they were building illegal settlements. One has to question his allegiance. A true American would place America first and condemn any country that violates our agreements.
There is no question that Israel is, in itself, a terrorist state. One only has to look up the definition:
“Criminal acts intended or calculated to provoke a state of terror in the general public, a group of persons or particular persons for political purposes are in any circumstance unjustifiable, whatever the considerations of a political, philosophical, ideological, racial, ethnic, religious or any other nature that may be invoked to justify them.”
The bombing and razing of houses in the occupied Palestinian territories and establishment of illegal settlements clearly meets the above definition. Greater proof is the virtual destruction of Lebanon’s infrastructure including use of cluster bombs in violation of US/Israel agreements.
As reported recently, the Israelis are quite content with the status quo. They live in relative luxury while the Palestinians live in ghettos.
That is not right.

JK:

Another name-calling pointless tirade by a hack writer.

“f Democrats were intervening on behalf of a foreign country against the United States government”
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Isn’t that exactly what the left has done since the war in Iraq began? Or Vietnam? Democrats and the left at large has largely sided against the US Government as you put it. Although I would ask under what Constitution you live sic (last I checked) Congress is part of the US government.
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“They live in relative luxury while the Palestinians live in ghettos.”

I suggest you and the rest of your liberal contingent get out your checkbook and address the problem. You are free to do so. But that’s not the liberal way, they want to spend everybody else’s money to fix what THEY view as injustices.

I read your blog several times and fail to understand what you were attempting to convey. Insofar as my comment regarding the Palestinians living in ghettos — I have seen it first hand. It is also documented by numerous politicians, the Red Cross, religious leaders, foreign governments, news commentators and a former US President and Nobel Peace Prize recipient.
I love it that every time someone criticizes Israel they are defined as Liberals. They infer that being a Liberal is somehow anti-American or anti-capitalist. Incidentally, it was a Republican president that attacked Iraq without justification and based on lies.

“There are words to describe those who intervene on behalf of a foreign country against the United States Government”
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Not to mention these Democrats intervening against the US government or least we forget the Democrats and Bernie Sanders cutting budget for intelligence in the 1990s as the US was coming under attack by Al Queda. Intervening against the US government and the American people.
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In the 1980s Leahy traveled to Nicaragua and openly opposed U.S. military support for the Contras in their fight against the Marxist, Soviet-sponsored Sandinistas. In 1990 Leahy joined with Senator Robert Byrd in spearheading the fight to cut $500 million out of an emergency aid package that President George H.W. Bush had requested for anti-communist initiatives in Panama and Nicaragua. In addition, Leahy and Senator Chris Dodd co-sponsored legislation to cut U.S. aid to the government of El Salvador, which was at war against Marxist-Leninist militias backed by Cuba and the Soviet Union

God bless Joe Klein for pointing out the unpleasant truth.
It is revolting to watch the GOP engage in cynical political opportunism by cozying up to the Israeli lobby while President Obama attempts to coerce Israeli cooperation in moving the peace process forward. To the detriment of our long-term national interests, the GOP hopes to capitalize, literally, on the momentarily strained relationship between Israel and a Democratic president, and Israel unsurprisingly seems prepared to exploit Republican disloyalty to its own advantage. It’s a disturbing and sad spectacle of which more Americans should be made aware.

“It is also documented by numerous politicians, the Red Cross, religious leaders, foreign governments, news commentators and a former US President and Nobel Peace Prize recipient.”
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Can’t even say the name Jimmy Carter, the anti-Semite, can you.

Yes they have poverty so does this country and many others. Are you recommending the US take up nation building?
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“They infer that being a Liberal is somehow anti-American or anti-capitalist. Incidentally, it was a Republican president that attacked Iraq without justification and based on lies”
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. That’s only because a majority of the time liberals are anti-capitalist and anti-American. But its amusing how you immediately head to BDS (Bush deranged syndrome). You act of self delusion allows you to exclude from “those lies” the fact that Bill Clinton, Kerry Hillary Clinton among other Democrats agreed with those lies as they read the intelligence reports.
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Even The Washington Post Occasionally gets the Story Right.
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NONE DARE CALL IT DESPERATION
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By Michael Gerson, Washington Post
November 26, 2010
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WASHINGTON — Following two years of poor economic performance and electoral repudiation, liberalism is casting around for narratives to explain its failure — narratives that don’t involve the admission of inadequacies in liberalism itself.
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For some, the solution is to lay the blame on President Obama. He hasn’t been liberal enough. He can’t communicate. “I cannot recall a president,” says Robert Kuttner in the Huffington Post, “who generated so much excitement as a candidate but who turned out to be such a political dud as a chief executive.” Obama is “fast becoming more albatross than ally.”
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This is an ideological movement at its most cynical, attempting to throw overboard its once-revered leader to avoid the taint of his problems.
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But there is an alternative narrative, developed by those who can’t shake their reverence for Obama. If a president of this quality and insight has failed, it must be because his opponents are uniquely evil, coordinated and effective. The problem is not Obama but the ruthless conspiracy against him.
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So Matt Yglesias warns the White House to be prepared for “deliberate economic sabotage” from the GOP — as though Chamber of Commerce SWAT teams, no doubt funded by foreigners, are preparing attacks on the electrical grid. Paul Krugman contends “Republicans want the economy to stay weak as long as there’s a Democrat in the White House.” Steve Benen explains, “We’re talking about a major political party … possibly undermining the strength of the country — on purpose, in public, without apology or shame — for no other reason than to give themselves a campaign advantage in 2012.” Benen’s posting was titled, “None Dare Call it Sabotage.”
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So what is the proof of this charge? It seems to have something to do with Republicans criticizing quantitative easing by the Federal Reserve. And opposing federal spending. And, according to Benen, creating “massive economic uncertainty by vowing to gut the national health care system.”
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One is tempted to respond that it is a trillion dollars in new debt, the prospect of higher taxes and a complicated, disruptive health reform law that have created “massive economic uncertainty.” For the purposes of this argument, however, it is sufficient to say that all these economic policy debates have two sides.
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Yet this is precisely what the sabotage theorists must deny. They must assert that the case for liberal policies is so self-evident that all opposition is malevolent. But given the recent record of liberal economics, policies that seem self-evident to them now seem questionable to many.
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Objective conditions call for alternatives. And Republicans are advocating the conservative alternatives — monetary restraint, lower spending, lower taxes — they have embraced for 30 years.
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It is difficult to overstate how offensive elected Republicans find the sabotage accusation, which Obama himself has come very close to making. During the run-up to the midterm election, the president told a town hall meeting in Racine, Wis.: “Before I was even inaugurated, there were leaders on the other side of the aisle who got together and they made the calculation that if Obama fails, then we win.” Some Republican leaders naturally took this as an attack on their motives. Was the president really contending that Republican representatives want their constituents to be unemployed in order to gain a political benefit for themselves? No charge from the campaign more effectively undermined the possibility of future cooperation.
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The sabotage accusation, once implicit, is now direct among panicked progressives. Part of the intention seems to be strategic — to discourage Obama from considering Clintonian ideological triangulation. No centrist concessions, the argument goes, will appease Republicans who hate the president more than they love the country. So Obama should double down on liberalism, once again.
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It is very bad political advice. It also indicates a movement losing contact with political reality. When an ideology stumbles, its adherents can always turn to alcohol — or to conspiracy theories. It is easier to recover from alcohol. Conspiracy thinking is not only addictive, it is tiresome. It precludes the possibility of interesting policy debate or genuine disagreement — how can you argue with a plot?
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In 1964, John Stormer, a sabotage theorist of the right, came out with the book “None Dare Call it Treason,” which asked: “Is there a conspiratorial plan to destroy the United States into which foreign aid, planned inflation, distortion of treaty-making powers and disarmament all fit?” Stormer’s progressive descendants are just as discrediting to the ideas they claim to serve.

The appropriate title of the article should be “Israel Last, Yet Again” by Joe Klein The Self Hating Jew.

No, I am not suggesting nation building but I am suggesting that we quit sending aid to Israel and agreeing to pay bribes, with American taxpayer money, to give them billions of dollars in Jets so they can abstain from building illegal settlements in occupied Palestinian lands. I also found it abhorent that BenNet wants the US to promise not to vote against any UN propositions that condemn Israel. That is B.S and a VERY clear indication that Israel wants to dictate US foreign policy.
In so far as President Carter — you need to realize that being anti-Israeli government is not, repeat not, synonomous with being anti-American even though that is what AIPAC tries to infer. You call President Carter anti-semite simply because he wants to see a balanced foreign poicy and objects to the horrendous treatment of the Palestinians. He is a very honorable man and I have absolutely no problem voicing my adminiration towards him.

http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2010/08/23/as-the-crow-flies/

“You call President Carter anti-semite simply because he wants to see a balanced foreign poicy”
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No I call him an Anti-semite because he is!
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“we quit sending aid to Israel and agreeing to pay bribes, with American taxpayer money”

Would you agree that we do the same with US special interest groups?

Let us not forget that Senator McConnell has stated, on numerous occasions, that his top priority is to see that Obama is a one term president. His comments clearly indicate a GOP objection to everything the President proposes so that he will fail. It is party above country. That is pathetic and extremely un-American.

To actively stand against the most anti-american president and regime this country has ever known is as patriotic as it gets.

And where are all our brave, patriotic Democrats who intend to stand up for America’s interests against the tidal wave of bought-and-paid-for Congressmen, Joe Klein? You make good points and your sentiments are on the right track, but you fall into the same pitfalls as many before you in ignoring the Democratic Party’s own complicity in this deleterious quagmire. The US Congress is decidedly in the pockets of Israel, not simply the Republican Party. You would do well to finally acknowledge such.

You make a good point Exiled. It’s not as if any single party has a lock on bending over and spreading their cheeks when it comes to Israel, but I would argue that the republican party (especially the evangelicals) may be a little worse in their quest for the Rapture.

Most of the US Jewish Democratic Party funders do not identify with the Likud Israeli government. There are some ‘floating funders’, like Haim Saban, who will allocate funds back and forth between Dems and GOP according to which seems more Israel-supportive at the time, which amounts to blackmail, given the necessity for campaign funds, but most US Jewish Dem funders would prefer the Israeli Labor program, which still includes ‘land for peace’ as an objective. It’s very hard to keep this distinction in mind, because individuals both in the US (e.g. Foxman) and in Israel (e.g. Barak) who are theoretically on the Dem/Labor side of this, rather than the GOP/Likud side, are evidently quite happy to get dragged along by GOP/Likud policies, but the aligments of the parties, Dem with Israeli Labor and GOP with Likud, are abiding underlying realities.

“Let us not forget that Senator McConnell has stated, on numerous occasions, that his top priority is to see that Obama is a one term president. His comments clearly indicate a GOP objection to everything the President proposes so that he will fail. It is party above country. That is pathetic and extremely un-American.”
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Your bias and ignorance is showing. Every opposing Congressional leader wants a President of the opposing party to be a one term President. That doesn’t mean their Un-American or that they will not do what they truly believe is in the best interest of the country and its citizens.
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You actually think the Democratic Leaders of Congress didn’t want GWB to be a one term President. How stupid can a person be. Your line of thought makes you a danger to our Democracy.
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The above article is dead on. Liberals cannot face reality.

I’m sorry, how is it the same thing saying “We believe it isn’t in the best interests of the America, her government, her allies or her people to invade/continue the war in Iraq/Vietnam and as such oppose such measures” being against the US Government?

Actually, I believe McConnell said something to the effect that his and republicans highest priority was making sure Obama was a one term President. Highest priority – more important than our national security or the economy/jobs. Sounds pretty treasonous to me.

I would argue that the evangelicals are in fact trying to bring about the second coming.
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It is their belief that they can force God’s hand. I have given up any sense that the evangelicals know anything at all about Christianity.

You are very wrong. I served as Chief of Special Visitors Bureau and Codel (Congressional Delegation) Officer at the American Embassy in Rome for several years. Besides escorting two presidents and several Secretaries of State, I escorted joint Congressional Delegations of Dems and Republicans and they all got along and their interests were what was best for the US. That was pre-Bush. I agree that one party wants to see the other out but not at the expense of the US. That is what is happening today. We see people like McConnell, Boehner, Cantor, DeMint, Palin, Paul, and a host of others whose actions are designed to polarize and divide. By every appearance, they are more interested in party than country. You can argue all you want but these are facts.
If you think I am a danger to democracy – you are totally demented. I am not only a decorated war veteran, I served in the Foreign Service for ten years, including assignments in very dangerous countries.
One of my favorite sayings is “those who speak without knowledge through their mouth speak through their ass. If the shoe fits = wear it.

“if Democrats were intervening on behalf of a foreign country against the United States government”

Because Joe says it is. What Republicans are doing is no different.

“We see people like McConnell, Boehner, Cantor, DeMint, Palin, Paul, and a host of others whose actions are designed to polarize and divide”
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We? Who determined that the “we” has the right vision for what is best for this country. Voters have decided otherwise after determining that Obama had an extreme agenda not in line with the best interests of the country.
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Obama, Pelosi and Reid have proved to be the most divisive group this country have ever seen. They ignored the wishes of the people, called them stupid and passed legislation in private. In the lame duck session they want DADT, DREAM Act, Cap & Trade which the majority of Americans do not want and yet no action on the Bush tax cuts or that little thing called budget and appropriation bills. Is the goal to stop that? To quote Sarah– you betcha!

No actually. Republicans are looking for American intervention on the behalf of a foreign country for the benefit of said country with questionable advantages for American interests (Iran – where the advantages might be greater from different approaches) and in some cases, outright opposition to American interests (Israel). Democrats are asking for the cessation of American intervention in a foreign country because the continued intervention runs counter to American interests. In both cases, Democrats are working in favor of what they believe to be American interests

“There is no question that Israel is, in itself, a terrorist state.”
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Uh, yes there is.

Klein had some bad turkey; woke up cranky and decided be even more ridiculous than usual.

And when Obama was fresh in office with a huge mandate to govern, who was complaining that Obama didn’t speak to the will of the people?
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That was you sir. Don’t get all self-righteous now – it doesn’t suit you and never will.

Being against Israeli policy doesn’t mean you’re Anti-Israel. Or a self-hating Jew.
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Be a jack@$$ elsewhere.

http://tpmlivewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/11/foxnationcom-reposts-anti-obama-article-from-the-onion-doesnt-mention-its-a-joke.php
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The link speaks for itself. Of course TPM has a link to “Fox Nation” and wading through the comments their is funny.
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Fox does attract a certain type of,um, intellect.

freeinpa,

First of all, your response to JK does not make much sense. Vietnam? Hello!! Who do you think sent all those troops to Vietnam? None other than that “uber-Liberal” Lyndon Johnson. Who do you think supported his troop build up in Congress? Democrats.
Now if you talking about Liberals who are outside of Congress, that’s a different story. Joe Klein is talking about members of Congress who put the interests of a foreign country above those of the United States.

It’s very difficult to argue with Joe Klein’s primary point: one can have a positive posture toward Israel, and simultaneously comprehend that they are a foreign nation with unrelated and even opposing interests to ours.
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The best policy for the US is a US-first policy, not an Israel-first policy.
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However one views the current government in Israel, what sort of warped ideological view puts a foreign nation’s interests above our own?
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It’s indicative of something strangely out of balance in our discourse that there would even be a debate over whether Israel’s interests are identical to ours, or whether their interests must be honored above what’s good for the people of the United States.
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Joe Klein is also correct to point out that putting one’s country first isn’t a left vs right vs center issue. As he mentions, Rand Paul and various libertarians are just as concerned about our government and establishment press corps’ largely subservient posture with respect to Israel as are movement liberals.
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It is honorably consistent and honest to praise those on the right who agree with us on the left –and even the minority view in the center, like Joe Klein– that America’s interests come first.
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How is the America-first position controversial even in the slightest?
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What’s wrong with the center-right?

8.4, you forget that Obama is the most divisive politician and President. He constantly makes statements that divide: cling to guns and religion, we are not a Christian nation…we are one of the largest Muslim nations, cops acted stupidly. His remarks that Republicans need to “sit in back of the bus” and Latinos need to “punish their enemies.”
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Those comments are worthy of a political hack like James Carville. Obama is constantly reminding us that he is NOT and doesn’t want to be President of all Americans.

Calling the Israeli settlements illegal is like calling the US occupation of Arizona illegal. Should the US stop building in Tucson and cede the land back to Mexico? Since when has land won fair and square in a war started by the other side been an illegal occupation.

Agreed, neorationalist86.
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It’s not a right-wing problem, it’s an establishment institution problem.

What are you babbling about? Obviously supporting Israel is in our best interests? It’s absolutely consistent with American interest 1st.

Alex Vallas
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“If you think I am a danger to democracy – you are totally demented. I am not only a decorated war veteran, I served in the Foreign Service for ten years, including assignments in very dangerous countries.
One of my favorite sayings is “those who speak without knowledge through their mouth speak through their ass. If the shoe fits = wear it.”
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When a supposedly educated, intelligent person makes ignorant assumptions about the intentions and motives of people that do not share their political views, they are indeed a danger to a functioning Democracy or they are simply insane. Try using facts and logic sometime. You might find it a pleasant experience.
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If you have the experience you claim, then you should have more common sense than you show in your posts.
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You have found the one the shoe fits and it is you.

And being against Israeli policy does not mean you are NOT anti-Israel or a self hating jew. However Joe has acknowledged numerous times of his distate for the existence of the state of Israel and his support for those who wish for its end, either militarily or otherwise. Perhaps you don’t want to acknowledge that you are either a self hating jew (like Joe) or an anti-semite.

You’re missing the point, as usual.
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Supporting the Israeli government’s policies is in our best interests…only when it actually is in our best interests.
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You’re confusing indiscriminate support of Israel’s policies –misplaced loyalty, really– with being a self-interested ally.
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The weird Israel-first devotion that compels those on the right and center-right to behave as if their first duty were to Israel’s government, instead of our own is what’s at issue here.
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Taking Israel’s side against our own country’s policies is obviously not consistent with America 1st.
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One can understand that sort of devotion on the part of Israeli citizens…but not American politicians and pundits.

You’re confusing indiscriminate support of Israel’s policies –misplaced loyalty, really– with being a self-interested ally.

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No, I am not confusing anything. Obama has been a buffoon while Neyanyahu has been outstanding.

Just read that the Twins landed the rights to Nishioka.
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You-will-be-happy

Wow. The trolls and the idiots are out in force today. Joe musta hit a nerve.

izzy100
My comments are made in response to you accusing me of being a threat to democracy. To question my patriotism is the biggest insult a person can give me. My record speaks for itself, and I do not hide my name with an alias or make false statements regarding my background.

With your logic, we should declare Germany, Japan, and Italy our land.

I realize you’re offended, Alex, but the sort of right-wing fools we get here just assume assume that being a lock-step conservative and being patriotic are interchangeable, while disagreeing with them and being treasonous are interchangeable. Don’t get too upset over it.

I was hoping you had some on the spot observations for me JC.
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I don’t know enough to project that side of the ocean stats/defense to this side.
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Was this year a fluke in his average? Seems to be a speed guy which the Twins need.
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Apologies to the non baseball fans reading this.

It’s a shame you chose not to respond to the meat of SZ’s comment.

He’s apparently too consumed by the frantic waving of his blue and white flag.

I wasn’t kidding SZ.
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I share your position and would be interested in a coherent counter argument.

Sorry, but I can’t find an online version, and this is worth quoting in full:
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“It seems reasonably clear that American policy, like that of any great power, is guided by the ‘national interest’ as conceived by dominant social groups, in this case the primary goal of maximizing the free access by American capital to the markets and human and material resources of the world, the goal of maintaining to the fullest possible extent its freedom and operation in a global economy. At the same time, ideologists labor to mask the these endeavors in a functional system of beliefs.

It is interesting that such analyses of foreign policy, which incorporate the material interests of private or quasi-private capital as a central factor interacting with others, are often characterized as ‘vulgar economic determinism’ or the like when put forth by opponents of the system of private control of resources and the means of production. On the other hand, similar formulations receive little attention when they appear, as they commonly do, in official explanations of state policy. What is more, explanations that emphasize, say, vague emotional states, or ideological elements, or error, are not similarly characterized as ‘vulgar emotional (ideological) determinism’ or ‘vulgar fallibilism’

The label [vulgar economic determinism] too often serves to deflect attention from the proposed explanations, which are much easier to ignore when misrepresented….

It is possible to give some useful advice to an aspiring political analyst who wants his work received as thoughtful and penetrating–advice which surely applies to any society, not merely to ours. This analyst should first of all determine as closely as possible the actual workings of power in his society. Having isolated certain primary elements and a number of peripheral and insignificant ones, he should then proceed to dismiss the primary factors as unimportant, the province of extremists and ideologues. He should rather concentrate on the minor and peripheral elements in decision making. Better still, he should describe these in terms that appear to be quite general and independent of the social structure that he is discussing (‘power drive,’ ‘fear of irrelevance,’ etc.). Where he considers policies that failed, he should attribute them to stupidity and ignorance, that is, to factors that are socially neutral. Or he may attribute the failures to noble impulses that led policy makers astray (‘tragic irony’), or to the venality, ingratitude, and barbarism of subject peoples. He can then be fairly confident that he will escape the criticism that his efforts at explanation are ‘simplistic’ (the truth is often surprisingly simple). He will, in short, benefit from a natural tendency on the part of the privileged in any society to suppress–for themselves as well as others–knowledge and understanding of the nature of their privilege and its manifestations.”

Noam Chomsky, “The Backroom Boys,” For Reasons of State, 1973

“Apologies to the non baseball fans reading this.”
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Yes, we wouldn’t want to distract from the rank trollery and bile.
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Other than being injury prone, he’s awesome. Last year was atypical in that he hit like .340 but his OBP has been consistently solid and he hit .300 at least 3 or 4 previous times. Great defense and while not lightning fast, he knows how to steal bases, period. That said, for every Matsui (Hideki) there’s a Matsui (Kaz). Never know how they’ll adjust, initially or long-term. One plus is Bobby Valentine managed him here for years, so he’s more familiar with American style besuboro than many coming out of more culturally closed clubhouses here.

What meat? There’s nothing there. Neither Joe nor SZ say what it is conservatives are supporting that conservatives think is bad for the USA but support anyway because it’s good for Israel. Their accusation can’t be true unless it fits that criteria. I happen to think Obama’s insistence on a settllement freeze has been braindead stupid, It’s bad for Israel and bad for the USA. If Joe or SZ want to say they think it’s bad for the USA they’re entitled to their opinion. They’re not entitled to decide what I think.

This is Joe at his airhead best.

He will, in short, benefit from a natural tendency on the part of the privileged in any society to suppress–for themselves as well as others–knowledge and understanding of the nature of their privilege and its manifestations.”

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Isn’t this the entire problem liberals have with Fox and Limbaugh and the internet. That it’s nearly impossible to suppress? THere was certainly a level of suppression in 1973 but not now. Of lack of a better example consider both the Swift Boat Vets and the Texas Air National Guard stories. There is no question in 1980 the SBVs don’t get 30 seconds of a time and we still think Dan Rather us Sherlock Holmes. But in 2004 we learned there wasn’t a shred of truth to xmas in cambodia, he gamed his purple hearts to get a ticket home and Dan Rather is a lying scumbag. This is the dribble that passes for deep thought at left wing zoos like Harvard.

This is too rich.
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There really can’t be a better example of this bizarre tendency to confuse the interests of two entirely different countries than “It’s bad for Israel and bad for the USA.”
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What could possibly be “bad for the USA” about a settlement freeze in the occupied territories?
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LOL.
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It’s just horrifying to contemplate how the territorial and sovereign integrity of the United States would be so drastically compromised by…a settlement freeze in Israeli-occupied Palestine.
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Please, try to explain that how the interests of the United States are somehow imbued in the expansionist dreams of greater-Zion settlers.
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Let me take a guess: if Israeli settlement of the occupied territories stays at current levels, it will…wait for it…embolden “the terrorists”!
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LOL
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You know, the forces of international jihad will somehow wave their AK-47s in triumph, and redouble their efforts to strike at the heart of imperalist-Zionist hegemony in…Omaha, Nebraska? …Or was it Appleton, Wisconsin? No, wait…it’s Bowling Green, Kentucky. That’s the heart of the Israeli settler movement: South-Central Kentucky.
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If Israel does not proceed at current rates of settlement of occupied Palestinian territory, Al Qaeda will surely be emboldened to terrorize Bowling Green, Kentucky.
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OK, OK –so that can’t obviously be the reason –that whole line of argument is transparently silly and false.
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So, what is it, then?
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What’s “bad for the USA” about a settlement freeze in the occupied territories?
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Why isn’t it a prime example of how confused you, the right and the center-right are about the difference between Israeli and US interests?
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What other than mixed-up loyalties could explain that confusion?

Under current international law, “occupied territory” that the victor holds does not automatically become owned/absorbed by the conquering power:
“The significance of the designation of these territories as occupied territory is that certain legal obligations fall on the occupying power under international law. Under international law there are certain laws of war governing military occupation, including the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907 and the Fourth Geneva Convention.[11] One of those obligations is to maintain the status quo until the signing of a peace treaty, the resolution of specific conditions outlined in a peace treaty, or the formation of a new civilian government.[12]
There is a dispute as to whether, and if so to what extent, Israel is an occupying power in relation to the Palestinian territories.
On the basis that the Palestinian territories are occupied territory, Israeli settlements in these territories are in breach of Israel’s obligations as an occupying power and constitute a grave breach of the Geneva Conventions and that the settlements constitute war crimes.[13][14]”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-occupied_territories

“From the second half of the 18th century onwards, international law has come to distinguish between the military occupation of a country and territorial acquisition by invasion and annexation, the difference between the two being originally expounded upon by Emerich de Vattel in The Law of Nations (1758). The distinction then became clear and has been recognized among the principles of international law since the end of the Napoleonic wars in the 19th century. These customary laws of belligerent occupation which evolved as part of the laws of war gave some protection to the population under the military occupation of a belligerent power.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_occupation

The Mexican War was a blatant land grab by the US, but it’s legal under international law because an overall peace treaty and various agreements were signed by the US and Mexico. Arizona is part of the US.

Outstanding info JC, thanks.
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I will say I’m pretty sure “One plus is Bobby Valentine managed him” has never been said or written about any baseball player at any time in any context before.
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You have expressed modesty for not having original context lately, THAT was original.
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The middle infield defense is a big need for the Twins (more than they or their new fans recognize) so for that alone he would be an upgrade. Any offense/SB would be gravy.

Not to mention President Reagan & his henchmen illegally selling weapons to Iran, an avowed enemy of the United States, in exchange for cash to fund your Contra wars.

rdw56, I trust 18.5 provided enough specifics for you.
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Again, I am honestly interested in your counter argument.

free,

My 6.3 refers to your 6.0.

“To the detriment of our long-term national interests, the GOP hopes to capitalize, literally, on the momentarily strained relationship between Israel and a Democratic president, and Israel unsurprisingly seems prepared to exploit Republican disloyalty to its own advantage. It’s a disturbing and sad spectacle of which more Americans should be made aware.”

Sadder still, many of them think the evil they do now to hurry along the Second Coming is justified, and Christ will “lift them up” for their efforts.

LOL. Yeah, anything Valentine did in the US is outside the brackets of my comment. He won the title here for Chiba and is generally beloved by fans who didn’t want to see him go. Both departures from J-town have come about b/c of conflict with mgmt. Anyway, I guess this means you don’t have “The Zen of Bobby V” on DVD?

Sorry for asking you earlier and above.
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I can’t keep the clowns straight and for some reason I was thinking you were serious.

What could possibly be “bad for the USA” about a settlement freeze in the occupied territories

*****************************************************************

What’s bad is it constrains the economic growth of Israel which is an ally and trading partner. What’s worse is it’s not just pointless but counter productive. They were never an impediment to negotiations until Obama made them one and now both sides are frozen. Of all of the problems concerning peace these are the least. The 1st and most glaring is you can’t have to two state solution when there are 3 states. The West Bank and Gaza are closer to war than the WB and Israel. But aside from that we know what the final settlement will look like but serious talks can’t start until Palestinians acknowledge Israel’s right to exist.

An example of just how pitiful Obama has been is the recent vote to require a 2/3s majority in the Knesset for any deal. The Israeli’s don’t trust Obama even a little bit nor should they. It is in our interest for Israel to remain strong and free. Obama is simply an arrogant fool. Settlements were always a stupid fight to pick. Bush had it right. Help the WB build the institutions of govt and a stronger private economy and help Israel continue it’s economic boom and military dominance. Time always favors free market democracies.

Al Qaeda will surely be emboldened to terrorize Bowling Green, Kentucky

**********************************************

Al Qaeda had/has nothing to do with Palestine. Al Qaeda is part of radical Islams war against the rest of the non-muslim world. Osama had no interest in Palestine.

BTW: Are they really embolden? They’ve been getting the snot kicked out of them since 9/11. The Sauds and other Arab govts all kill them. If captured they’re tortured to death. Islam has been trashed as a gutter religion because of them.

Instead of going through line by line of non sequiturs and ideological pronouncements, I’ll just let this stand as a testament to obvious confusion about national boundaries:
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“Q: What could possibly be “bad for the USA” about a settlement freeze in the occupied territories?”
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“A: What’s bad is it constrains the economic growth of Israel…”
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What else really needs to be said about this manner of thinking?

Heh, no but I *do* have a Bobby Valentine “mustache” for Halloween use.
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I have disseminated your Nishioka scouting to interested parties. Many thanks.

Why isn’t it a prime example of how confused you, the right and the center-right are about the difference between Israeli and US interests?

***************************************************************

There is no confusion. Settlements are an economic issue. Jerusalem and all of the proposed projects are in territories that will stay with Israel in any final settlement. They are a natural extension of existing neighborhoods and will allow families to stay near families and businesses to expand. There is not reason not to go ahead. Economic are something liberals miss but is a critical component of security. Israel has benefitted significantly from it’s booming economy and will continue to do so. It’s obviously a benefit for the USA and all free market democracies to see our allies boom. It’s only common sense.

Try anything, try explaining what happens even if Israel were to stop all construction. They just finished a 9 month pause and nothing happened. What deal can be had after Ehud Barak and Omert were turned down?

There is no suggestion Abbas has any interest in talking and then even if he did who represents Gaza?

This is all window dressing that I’ve explained before benefits Israel and Abbas. They’re just going to tie up Obama and tend to their own economies while the more socialist Gaza lags further and further back. Economic growth compounds. Israel should add $10B to GDP in 2010 and then $11B in 2011, $12B in 212. That’s $33B in annual GDP per year by 2013. If they devote 5% to defense spending that’s another $1.65B. That’s real money.

In fact what the Jews have been doing since 2004 is lowering defense spending as a percent of GDP yet are still growing defense spending. This trend will get them down to a very manageable 6% of GDP by 2015. If you don’t think this matters you are not thinking.

Paul and SZ,

You have to see this post is pure frustration on the part of Klein. He’s venting. His guy is faltering and he wants to throw him a lifeline and has nothing. Eric Cantor had a meeting with BiBi and that’s a sign of treason? Sorry, Congressmen do this all the time with all sorts of leaders. Abe Foxman has a right to say anything he wants about anything he wants to anyone he wants. Liberals and Conservatives have long disagreed on Israel and no doubt will do so forever. The entire staff at Time is stunned. They can’t believe Israeli’s and 80% of Americans don’t have their hair on fire about the talks. It’s because they’re a waste of time. What have Obama and Hillary Clinton ever done in the way of negotiations? They’re in over their heads. BiBi put a clinic on Obama and Joe knows it. He’s frustrated and venting.

izzy,
You said to Alex,

“When a supposedly educated, intelligent person makes ignorant assumptions about the intentions and motives of people that do not share their political views, they are indeed a danger to a functioning Democracy or they are simply insane. Try using facts and logic sometime. You might find it a pleasant experience.”

You might better direct your comment to Michael Gerson, the erstwhile Bush II chief speech writer and planner/apologist for the Iraq invasion.

Even The Washington Post Occasionally lets a columnist get the Story Wrong
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“They were never an impediment to negotiations”
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WTF?
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Did you sleep through the previous three administrations?

I think this is the link you wanted:

http://www.chomsky.info/articles/1972—-.htm

Godd@mmit Herby!
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I Googled a line of the above text and turned up nothing. I know Chomsky’s site features an incredible archive so I was surprised at my result. Thus, I typed up that massive passage (any mistakes are mine). Oh well. Thanks anyway. If I want to share any additional passages as I continue reading, I’ll do a better search first.

More OT than J-baseball?

H.L. Mencken:

“I need not point to what happens invariably in democratic states when the national safety is menaced. All the great tribunes of democracy, on such occasions, convert themselves, by a process as simple as taking a deep breath, into despots of an almost fabulous ferocity.”

There have been talks through all of the last 3 administrations and before while settlement construction was continuing.

“Perhaps you don’t want to acknowledge that you are either a self hating jew (like Joe) or an anti-semite.”
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I think it’s interesting that the same side of the aisle that says “If you criticize BHO people play the race card” so breezily call critics of Israeli policy anti-semitic.

While Mencken lacked what I desire (simple declarative sentences*) I have never disagreed with what I have read.
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*Understanding that says more about the reader than the writer.

“In both cases, Democrats are working in favor of what they believe to be American interests”
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They also believe higher taxes, higher spending, takeover of the HC system and growing regulation is also in American best interests. None of which is true.

“You’re a very silly man, and I’m not going to interview you.”
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It’s more of a case if anything stupid can be said about any subject with an overbearing and arrogant tone –it’s JK, Chris Tingles illegitimate twin

rdw56, At the risk of interviewing a very silly man – or worse yet, being a very silly woman – I’m going to ask you a question: What are America’s interests?
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You can’t really doubt that America’s and Israel’s economic interests, for example, could at least potentially conflict. Or that Israel (even just theoretically) could face a security risk that is not shared by America. Yet you deny any potential or actual conflict of interest between these two sovereign countries on opposite sides of the world.
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Is this because you believe America’s interests are aspirational ideals — of democracy, capitalism, perhaps even Judeo-Christian culture – shared by Israel? And would you say that when those ideals are threatened in Israel, they are threatened in America too?
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Reading between the lines, it appears that you feel Israel is on the side of justice, America is also on the side of justice, and Israel’s neighbours are – to use Bush Jr.’s phrase – evil-doers. And consequently America’s and Israel’s interests are completely in harmony. Is this a fair characterization of your views?
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stuart, you cannot imagine my surprise when I returned to Swampland after a few months away and saw that Joe had dedicated a post to you.

I’m a fan but he’s ultimately an elitist, longing for a civilian aristocracy capable of rescuing the sheep from the predator class.
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But this brief riff, The Libertine, is quite enjoyable/spot-on:
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Link

Rose! What a pleasant surprise.
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I was just mentioning you, believe it or not, while we were watching something.
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Did you see the HBO piece on Fran Lebowitz? Her thoughts on race vs. gender were interesting, I thought, and was curious what your take was.
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Hope you saw it and you are still around.

Oh my JC.
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“The Good Man”. I am getting odd looks because I am laughing as I am reading.
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So perfect.

It’s so lovely to read your voice again, Rose.
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You know, when Joe brought up commenters on Chris Matthews’ Sunday gasbag show one morning last year, and Tweety and Norah and Howard Fineman (or whichever of the rotating cast of bobbleheads were actually there) looked at him like he was describing having been abducted by aliens, I thought that the day might come.
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We’ve been doing good work at Swampland, all of us who have been here for the past three years, helping the journos understand that there’s something else out here than what meets and clinks glasses with them in their bubbled world.
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Once I got called a troll by some folks unhappy at my criticism of both mainstream journo practices and Obama’s policies, and I thought to myself “Jesus, I might never get through…If I can’t even make it clear to these people, how long will it take the journos who despise us to listen?”
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You have to understand, this was at least a year before my analysis with respect to centrism, Third Way ideology and the differences between movement liberals and New Democrats had begun to be taken seriously, repeated and enter into the common lexicon of liberal blog/talk. It was a wilderness within a wilderness, as it were. So it was a bit disheartening to be informed that there was no difference between my commentary, and that of, say, one of Question Hillary’s personas. I thought it might be time to consider trying to make a difference elsewhere, and I said so in commentary.
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Oregon JC, though, told me I was more or less an idiot for thinking that way, and for laying down before the finish line was in sight. I told him I would consider what he said, I did, and then I resumed the work. Obviously he was right, and I was wrong. Today, despite all of the things that are structurally, systemically and politically wrong with everything involved in politics, economics, culture and journalism, we are still better off for this project of engagement between pro and am writer/reader. We’re still better off for Joe Klein reading our commentary, and simply knowing that we exist out here, rather than only having the kind of “insider” movement liberal discussion that goes on at, say, Ian Welsh’s blog.
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This doesn’t mean we can let Joe set us up for the “But, you see, Obama’s Social Security destruction plan isn’t “privatization,” so it isn’t that bad, old thing I said was wrong…get it?” line that’s sure to come, but it does mean that the conversation between insiders on his end is getting slightly wider in scope. Maybe, one day, that scope will even include ideas that will actually help our nation and the vast majority of our people become better off.
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Maybe, one day, political journalism will be a part of helping Americans be better off.
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Hey, Joe Klein just dedicated a column to a frequently critical commentary analyst, in which he described himself as not merely wrong on the facts, but “besotted by the idea of markets,” i.e. in the grip of a reality-denying ideology.
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That means virtually anything can happen, if we imagine it, right?

“ Imagination is the real and eternal world of which this vegetable universe is but a faint shadow,” –William Blake

I hope to read more of your work again, Rose, if you are able. Thanks for dropping by.

Yet you deny any potential or actual conflict of interest between these two sovereign countries on opposite sides of the world.

*******************************

Rose. I deny no such thing. I think Henry the K nailed it. Nations have permanent interests not permanent friends. But all things equal a Democracy is morally superior to any form of totalitarian govt and certainly the thugocracties of the world. In addition the muslim world is at war with the West and their weapon of choice is terrorism. They must be defeated. The liberal problem in 2010 America is we are aligned on this. Support for Israel is near all time highs. Support of Palestine near all time lows. It will remain so until Muslims renounce terrorism in all of it’s forms and declare war on those among them who practice it.

“Oregon JC, though, told me I was more or less an idiot for thinking that way, and for laying down before the finish line was in sight. I told him I would consider what he said, I did, and then I resumed the work. Obviously he was right, and I was wrong.”
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SZ, no, no, no, I think I said that you were simply an idiot and should bugger off.
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Pause
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Smirk
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Well, anyway, what was a few more years doing the Sisyphus thing!?

I am both shocked and mortified by the amount of OT posts on this site. I guess my efforts to set an example have fallen on deaf fingers.

Nowhere is the corrupting influence of special interest money more evident than with AIPAC and Israel. The administration wants to give $3 billion to Israel for a 90-day reprieve from illegal Israeli settlement activity. Rep Cantor, the new whip, has promised to obey Israeli instruction and “check” efforts by this administration to force peace concessions.

The sanity of our system must be in question when a $3 billion gift leads to the “opposition” promising to check our harsh measures. Regrettably, our support emboldens Israel, and reduces its willingness to accept a peace compromise. As General Petraeus has indicated, the ongoing Palestinian-Israeli conflict poses real danger to our troops in the region.

In sum, Israeli special interests have US politicians giving $3 billion and pushing for more to achieve a result contrary to the interests of the US. This betrayal of US interests epitomizes the corrupting influence of special interest money.

The Israelis have used special interests money to pursue policies contrary to the US interests. General Patraeus stated clearly that a failure to find peace between Palestinians and Israelis threatens US soldiers in the Middle East. Yet the Israelis persist in building settlements (by means of ethnic cleansing of Christians and Muslims under occupation), tightening their apartheid-style occupation, and imposing an unconscionable block on Gaza. In sum, Israel has done everything in its power to foment anger toward the US.

Israel is no ally of the US.

So long as the Israelis remain committed to the violence inherent in occupation, there is not “checkbook” that can solve the withering prejudice and injustice suffered by Christians and Muslims living under Israeli occupation.

America’s conscience can no longer permit it to support Israel.

Those of you secular and atheist liberals are under the false impression that al Qaeda and other “radical” Muslims, as opposed to most Muslims, are more offended by the actions of Jews and Christians. You actually are under the delusion that if you appease Muslims they won’t want to kill you. You are 100% wrong.
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Most radical Muslims will let Jews and Christians practice their religion by paying a heavy tax, but non believers either convert to Islam or die.
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Try negotiation.

Yeah Stuart, you’re a real rock star. Now if you can only get over yourself.

I get the impression, not only from Obama, but from many of the progressives here that they wouldn’t care if Iran turned Israel to ashes. According to you, we don’t share that same threat.
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http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/Quran-Hate.htm
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But beneath the rosy assurances from Muslim apologists that Islam is about peace and tolerance lies a much darker reality that better explains the violence and deeply-rooted indifference. Quite simply, the Quran teaches supremacy, hate and hostility.

Consider the elements that define hate speech:

* Drawing a distinction between one’s own identity group and those outside it

* Moral comparison based on this distinction

* Devaluation or dehumanization of other groups and the personal superiority of one’s own

* The advocating of different standards of treatment based on identity group membership

* A call to violence against members of other groups

Sadly, and despite the best intentions of many decent people who are Muslim, the Quran qualifies as hate speech on each count.

The holiest book of Islam (61% of which is about non-Muslims) draws the sharpest of distinctions between Muslims and non-believers, lavishing praise on the former while condemning the latter with scorching generalizations. Far from teaching universal love, the Quran incessantly preaches the inferiority of non-Muslims, even comparing them to vile animals and gloating over Allah’s hatred of them and his dark plans for their eternal torture. Naturally, the harsh treatment of non-believers by Muslims is encouraged as well.
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YOU must not miss it

save you a lot

http://www.briskfeetinn.com

In sum, Israeli special interests have US politicians giving $3 billion and pushing for more to achieve a result contrary to the interests of the US. This betrayal of US interests epitomizes the corrupting influence of special interest money.

****************************************************************

This aid and all aid to Israel has the broad support of the American people. We wish to see Israel with a substantial military edge because they are a free market democracy and it’s hugely positive for the region and the world they survive. This liberal paranoia on AIPAC seems to exceed that of Fox. It’s fun to watch and perfectly self-defeating.

Get used to seeing Eric Cantor and keep a supply of sedatives on hand. He will drive you crazy. That this post was an example of venting rather than thinking is testament to how far Eric has gotten inside Joe’s head. He’s a star in the GOP and the speaker knows how to use him. Unlike Newt John intends to use a very deep bench of sharp congressman. Joe Klein is well aware Congressmen travel to and meet with foreign leaders all the time and was quite supportive when it happened under Bush. This is nothing more that a political partisan having a hissy fit realizing what goes around comes around.

There is also the frustration of it Netanyahu recognizing Cantor is a player and using his meetiing to get in the heats of Obama and the entire MSM. He understands they are his political enemies and keeping them unglued is to his advantage. It’s politics 101 and just another example of BiBi taking Barak to school.

As General Petraeus has indicated, the ongoing Palestinian-Israeli conflict poses real danger to our troops in the region.

********************************************

Petraeus was not taking a position on the state of the negotiations nor taking the position you’ve assigned to him. Further attempts to saddle him so have backfired. It’s another obnoxious attempt by liberals to stab an ally in the back for a perceived gain. As limited a thinker as Obama is even he understood this. It’s hard to decide if his most critical mistake was in his decision to make settlements the leading issue or in his shockingly inept execution. His polls in Israel are under 10%. You would think that impossible on two levels. Usually 25% at least are not paying enough attention to think you are an idiot. He managed to get everyone’s attention. 2nd, he seems to have been completely oblivious to the fact that if you want to play honest broker in any conflict you need the trust of both sides. Obama hasn’t even hinted at any knowledge or respect of the Israeli side. Even assuming he has none, which seems certain, he had to know he needed to fake it, at least some level of respect. He has lost for eternity any opportunity he had in this regard and now, as President, his options are severely limited by a Congress that is convinced he’s been a fool and will work against him legislatively.

Far from teaching universal love, the Quran incessantly preaches the inferiority of non-Muslims, even comparing them to vile animals and gloating over Allah’s hatred of them and his dark plans for their eternal torture. Naturally, the harsh treatment of non-believers by Muslims is encouraged as well.

*****************************************************

This has obviously become the core issue in the middle east and while Osama could care less about the Palestinians he has managed to make his religious war a decisive factor. The fact is a majority of Americans are religious and they are not about to back down from the war radical islam has declared on them. Further they made little distinction between radical islam and the moderates who enable the radicals. In practicing terrorism Palestinians are far more than just enablers and they have lost all chances of support from Americans for generations. We still remember Pearl Harbor 65 years later. Islam will either have it’s reformation and eliminate the radicals or in 65 years the West will be on it’s 25th generation of drone wolfpack.

rdw- below is an example of how trivial the MSM has become and why they despise bloggers.

May all of Israel’s blessings be this “mixed”

November 26, 2010 – Powerline

From Hugh Hewitt, we learn of a piece in the New York Times which claims that “GOP and Tea Party gains are a mixed blessing for Israel.” The premise of the article is that “scores of Tea Party-backed candidates are entering Congress, many of whom favor isolationist policies and are determined to cut American foreign aid, regardless of its destination.”

The extent to which an isolationist strand exists within the Tea Party movement is an interesting subject. I dealt very tentatively with it here. A more informed and comprehensive examination would be well worth our attention.

Unfortunately, the Times’ treatment of the subject is not informed, comprehensive, or even honest. For one thing, the Times offers no support for its assertion that many of the Tea Party-backed candidates about to enter Congress favor isolationist policies. The only such candidate the Times identifies is Rand Paul. But Paul is probably an outlier
……

The electoral success of the GOP is thus no mixed blessing for Israel. It is a virtually pure blessing, if one views Israel’s interests the way Israel does.

We can only speculate why the New York Times claimed otherwise. I’m inclined to agree with Hugh Hewitt who writes:

The article seems a transparent attempt to persuade readers that Israel has something to fear from the new Congress when in fact Israel’s greatest concern comes from the president. The obvious hostility to Israel that has marked the president’s public statements and policies from the day he took office is clearly threatening the Democrats’ grip on the votes of Jewish-Americans, so the left-wing Times has helpfully launched a wholly misleading meme that Israel has something to fear from the new GOP majority when in fact the triumph of the GOP is the best thing to happen to Israel in American politics in two years.

http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2008/08/18/movers-and-shakers/

“Taking Israel’s side against our own country’s policies is obviously not consistent with America 1st.”
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You mean, “Taking Israel’s side against President Obama’s policies is obviously not consistent with America 1st”
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A big difference.
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There has been, and continues to be no other country in the world which has sided with America at all times. Israel has been and I believe will always be on the side of America and advocate for everything in our best interest.
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In his zeal to attract the pleasure and good praises of Muslim countries, Obama has thrown Israel under the bus. Just like Grandma and Jeremiah Wright. The plot continues to thicken.

“What could possibly be “bad for the USA” about a settlement freeze in the occupied territories?”
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What is good about a settlement freeze for America? How does setting up a Palestinian government benefit the United States? What would the Palestinians offer us so far as jobs, a market for our goods?
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Who funds the most for new fledgling governments? Who pays out more money to the IMF than any other country to help support 3rd world countries in need?
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Billions upon billions of US Tax Dollars have been spent in this region for both Israelis and Palestinians. To no avail. The bargaining only costs us more money.

To what recent history of liberal economic policies failing could the writer possibly be referring to? USA was at it’s richest and most prosperous at the end of democrat Bill Clinton’s reign, and at it’s poorest and weakest at the end of George Bush’s reign. Under Obama, pursuing a centrist ‘half and half’ agenda of compromise, the USA has been in a holding pattern neither deteriorating nor improving much. I can’t see how anyone could possibly draw any conclusion other than the obvious: liberal policies have been by far the best for American prosperity in recent history.

Show me one time Joe actually show’s distaste at the existence of the state of Israel. He criticizes it plenty, but like so many post WWII onlookers, he relishes in it’s existence, and the symbolism it’s existence creates.
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I am a very proud Jew, one who is very knowledgeable in both the religious and cultural aspects of Judaism. To suggest that I am either anti-Israel or a self-hater shows that you know nothing about me, and that you will automatically place people with opposing views as your own in a specific camp that must necessarily have particular characteristics, e.g. self hating Jew.
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Open your mind, maaaaaan!

Yes, I’m sure everyone would consider billions of dollars worth of state of the art jets for a 90 day settlement freeze extension “throwing Israel under the bus.”
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More to the point, Israel is being recalcitrant with these peace talks. The West Bank is pretty much ready to become a state of its own, or at the very least on the right path, and Israel doesn’t seem to recognize this. Sure, they’ll make the motions, but it’s extremely frustrating to see Israel outmaneuver and clearly outstrip the US in its reputation and, seemingly, power in the Middle East.
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When looking at the Middle East, the US, as I see it, has 2 primary priorities:
(1) maintain relations with Israel, our number 1 ally in the Middle East
(2) stabilize the region
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For many years, the main priority was (1), as there was little to no chance of our stabilizing the region. Over the last couple decades, as the surrounding Arab countries have become increasingly moderate and/or friendly towards the US, (2) has been taking the limelight. After all, Israel is extremely important, but our interests have widened to the region as a whole. At what point do we allow Israel to prevent us from stabilizing the region? Yes, Israel is acting in its own best interests, but in the minds of many, that does a great injustice to the Palestinians that live there, too (and for the sake of argument, we can ignore that most of the Arab countries have explicitly prevented these Palestinians from entering their lands so to create a huge thorn in the sides of the Israelis – now it truly is Israel’s problem).
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So what do we do? Is it worth putting a little pressure on Israel to continue with the peace talks and perhaps come to an agreement than showering them with gifts to cajole them into doing what they should be doing anyway? After all, a two state solution will be in Israel’s best interests too, wouldn’t it? It will take some international pressure off them and would surely result in more gifts and protection from the US.
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But wait, we forget that Likud is essentially controlled by the minority Orthodox, who believe that no part of Israel should fall outside Jewish hands. Sigh. There goes the neighborhood.
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As a pro-Israel Jewish person, I would say the US has to be tough on Israel for both our – and their – own good. Unfortunately, that’s very unlikely in the near future.

It’s not about the Palestinians providing us with jobs, etc., although I was under the impression that providing disadvantaged people with a future was a goal worthy of pursuing for its own sake.
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Otherwise, how about the other Arab countries that might be more amenable to US deals as a result of our success there?

No, it’s been many years now since I’ve been a real rock star.
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But thanks for the advice, anyway.

Did you really just say that Al-Qaeda has nothing to do with Palestine? Please tell me this was an off-handed remark and doesn’t truly represent your view. The debacle in Palestine is fueling participation in terrorist groups, and is a rallying point for terrorists world-wide.

Also, the benefit of a booming Israeli economy (as you call it) does not outweigh the world-wide detriment our unabashed support for Israel does for us. No one is saying they do not support Israel. What is being put forth is that both sides need to be reasonable and honor existing agreements. How that can be spun as “Anti-Israel” is but more proof of how extremists have framed this issue and distorted facts. Although, they do that with every issue, so it should come as no surprise.

And can we stop with the ignorance of calling Jimmy Carter an anti-semite. What proof do you have to back up such a serious accusation? Was it because he talked about the humanitarian crises going on in Palestine? It’s pretty sickening to see people try and claim there is no crises there, when all you have to do is look at the evidence.

On a separate but connected issue, I just don’t understand the end-game of these right wing extremists. The Muslim bashing and xenophobia, where does that get us? NOTHING GOOD CAN COME OF ALIENATING 20% OF THE WORLD’S POPULATION. Also, that population is rapidly growing. I think it would be wise of us to engage rather than vilify these people.

You’re pretty quick to throw around some pretty harsh labels. None of the people you mention has ever suggested the eradication of the state of Israel. Suggesting balance in our policies and being against further Israeli settlements isn’t being an “anti-semite” which, I don’t know if you realize or not, is a pretty serious charge.

Is there any response to the fact that Mcconnell said it was his FIRST priority? Really? Not working on continuing the improvement of the economy? Although things are slowly getting better, I think our society faces some fundamental questions when it comes to the economy. As more and more manufacturing jobs disappear, the service sector of our economy surges. The problem is, these jobs are much lower paying and not unionized. (Which I’m sure you see as a positive, seeing as how organized labor is made into a boogeyman, but the reality is that workers have no long-term security and ways to ensure continued pay increases) The Republican philosophy of what’s good for the rich is what’s good for all is really coming home to roost.

I accidentally replied to this in another spot, and the part about Al-Qaeda having nothing to do with Palestine just gets me.
The debacle in Palestine is fueling participation in terrorist groups, and is usually the first “offense” and reason for hatred terrorists will spew. It’s consistently a rallying point for terrorists world-wide.

Also, the benefit of a booming Israeli economy (as you call it) does not outweigh the world-wide detriment our unabashed support for Israel does for us. No one is saying they do not support Israel. What is being put forth is that both sides need to be reasonable and honor existing agreements. How that can be spun as “Anti-Israel” is but more proof of how extremists have framed this issue and distorted facts. Although, they do that with every issue, so it should come as no surprise.

Nations have permanent interests not permanent friends. But all things equal a Democracy is morally superior to any form of totalitarian govt and certainly the thugocracties of the world. In addition the muslim world is at war with the West and their weapon of choice is terrorism. They must be defeated.
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rdw56, And America’s moral interests (i.e. in the triumph of democracy) are paramount. Thanks, I understand where you’re coming from. I disagree with the assumptions you’re making – like the idea that there is a “muslim world” – but the reasoning makes perfect sense, once you grant the assumptions.
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P-NNTO, no I haven’t seen the documentary, but it’s on my list of things to watch. And now you’ve made me curious about it so it has moved up the list!
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stuart, sounds like a lot has happened here in the past few months. I feel like this is such a great time to advance new ideas and new ways of understanding because everything is falling apart; traditional ways of thinking are clearly inadequate. I believe we will look back at this time as an era of great ideological change. But I still worry that dangerous and simplistic ideas will win out, as they did 80 years ago. (Not that I’m comparing my political opponents to Nazis) In short, it’s not a good time for reasonable people to leave the political sphere.
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Personally, I’ve lost interest in a lot of the minutiae of politics, mostly because the elected representatives of the so-called left are stunningly incompetent and the policies they fight for – but usually fail to implement – are incapable of effectively addressing the problems they aim at. It’s a cycle of “serious people” telling people who need a bakery to fight for a loaf and settle for a slice, because anything else wouldn’t be pragmatic. (I might write something on pragmatism for our neglected blog.)

Every thing fuels terrorist groups. Radical islam is at war with the world. You don’t cower to these maggots. You kill them. Samuel P Huntington of Harvard in Clash of Civilization made the point, The borders of islam are bloody’. This being Harvard the liberals got the vapors. He brought out a map and proved it. The USA will never be pushed around by maggots nor will Israel.

Obama got 12 stitches in the mouth today. Biden apparently got tired of all the Hillary as VP talk.

I disagree with the assumptions you’re making – like the idea that there is a “muslim world”

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of course there is a muslim world just as there is a west. That’s not to say all muslims are the same anymore than all westerners are the same. But there are common characteristics and themes, i.e. Jihad and terrorism. One of the disasters of 9/11 is to make Americans far more aware of the suffering Jews have experienced at the hands of Islamic terrorists. As long as Palestinians support terrorism Americans will support Israel.

Rose if you get the chance to see it and you are so inclined please check back.

Damm!t, Joe Klein, you had to take a perfectly rational post and muddle it all up with a false-equivalent “balancing” update. What’s up, RDW and his ilk getting to you? Stop feeling compelled to play equal all the time. This conflict is not equal.

It is an odd update, not at all connected to the basic issue. One has to be impressed at this oh-so responsible govt. Wonder if Joe draws a connection between this model behavior and Sharon’s reaction to the infatada? Methinks the connection is quite obvious. Abbas I am sure has fond memories of the last two years with Arafat living in his own stink unable to move without permission. Not something he wishes to revisit.

If healthcare could be exported the same way as weapons, then Americans could live forever. Companies in the defence industry know they can underwrite their investment spending with taxpayer dollars, yet keep the profits from exporting weapons to places like Israel, funded by still more taxpayer dollars, to themselves.

That is pathetic and extremely un-American..
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Alex, actually, given that we are a Two-Party country, i.e. inherently polarized, there isn’t really anything more American than seeking to overthrow a first term President of the other party.
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Your line of thought makes you a danger to our Democracy.
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Izzy, hyperbole can be extremely dangerous, including yours.
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Sounds pretty treasonous to me.
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Pob01, oh, yes, re-election bids, how deleterious.
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What the hell is wrong with you people? Partisan hacks like you(plural) are the problem!

rdw,
Can you go join the IDF, please? Not only will you get the chance to kill Arabs, but you’ll be so busy doing it that we won’t be burdened with your intolerable Zionist rants anymore. Thanks, dude.

Rose, probably a dead thread, but I take issue with this: “… traditional ways of thinking are clearly inadequate.”
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I think the liberal ideas that were embraced by Americans in the days of FDR or LBJ are equally resonant today. Sadly, our public discourse doesn’t give them the airing they deserve, but this is primarily due to the fact that the “so-called left” you refer to (i.e. dem party leadership since Clinton’s rise) doesn’t believe in liberalism, or, if they do, they’ve been bought outright to disbelieve it and espouse the type of moronic, vacuous rhetoric we’ve been forced to imbibe for far too long. In lieu of impassioned, liberal narratives that make perfect sense, particularly in times of economic hardship. That vacuum being filled by the demagogues (who I will say aren’t a far cry from their forebears in Germany).
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Again, the dems may in fact be incompetent, but if one acknowledges that market-based solutions/corp. partnership with government make up their agenda, it’s hard for me to see how they’re failing. Reducing any of this to electoral success is shortsighted IMO–there’s a deeper battle at play here, one that Shep referred to as a 10-year coup d’état by the oligarchy (past tense).
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The question, you might agree, is if “the policies they fight for” are in reality what they hope to achieve, or if it’s merely kabuki for their base. Ironically, you’re one of the first people to deflate my own false/willed judgment about Obama during the HCR fiasco–maybe he just didn’t want single payer or the public option. Maybe I was projecting liberal goals onto a centrist.
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I don’t think we need new ideas. I think we need new leadership, whether in the hollowed out vessel that is the dem 1/2 of the duopoly or a movement beyond the corp. sphere of influence. IOW, we need someone who’s not complicit to make the same eloquent and correct case that those halcyon dems made in the past, before we were born.

Let’s face it; the American government does not have the political will to be honest with the American people, whichever branch in the government they are. Violence and war has and will always stay… http://www.pathtoasia.com/jobs/

rdw has more rationalizations for this stuff than I can count. If I were to use the same tactic, then I could claim that us Vikings were historically the kindest, most philanthropic ethnic group there ever was:
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Hells bells, we chopped their heads off for their own good! And pillaging? That’s just your Free Market at work! Settling on your land, hell that’s just an economic thing! Why should you complain? Taking your women? We just do that to teach you not to take the most important things in life for granted.
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Now given all that, and our obvious superiority, why don’t you just sit down here at the negotiating table so that we can decide for you what peace will be like? Who could refuse such a kind offer?
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In the meantime, don’t worry about that red stain and that really, really big axe over there. It’ll be a lot more comfortable if you just lay your head right here…
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rdw56:
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You stink…

Joe Klein, wearing his best suit, trying to be freindly…
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Now I know you’re afraid, but, you really should see it from his point of view? And you scare him too! After all, even though he does have that big axe, and…
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…and that high wall
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…and those prisons
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…and those bigots in office
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…and those land laws
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…and all those new citizenship laws
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…and those constant raids
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…and those bulldozers*
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…but nevermind that. Really! He’s such a nice guy, so why don’t you trust him? I know I would, kaff, kaff. After all, it’s a democracy…
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*I think Arthur Dent was a Palestinian

“There is a swelling wave threatening Israeli jobs, a wave of illegal migrants that we must stop because of the harsh implications for Israel’s character,”
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–Binyamin Netanyahu, the Israeli prime minister, told the cabinet before the vote on Sunday to build the detention center for African immigrants.
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Joe,
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Can you explain why the jobs are just a red herring, and why Bibi is so obsessed with race?

Guess your update is reason enough to makes it all even, huh, Joe?
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One of these days, you’ll find that barbed wire is very uncomfortable to straddle…

I don’t have a problem with Arabs. I have a problem with radical islam and those parts of moderate islam who support the radicals even indirectly or by their silence. The main problem with Palestine now is the connection between the infatada and 9/11. Radical Islam is at war with the rest of the world and America will support all who fight back. One of the most interesting aspects of the Obama presidency is that when it comes to go after terrorists Obama is more aggressive than Bush and in terms of things like drone wolfpacks, pretty ruthless. This is a man very far left of center yet he still understands Americans see terrorists and their supporters as cockroaches.

Arizona was ceded to the US by treaty, though one could argue that this was done under duress it nevertheless puts it on much more solid footing than the military occupation of Palestine.

At the risk of invoking Godwin….

I am not sure I see the inherent moral superiority of democracy. Hitler came to power through an election, there is no evidence that Putin has needed to rig elections, Chavez has (so far) been kept in power by popular support, and even Hamas gained power through an election, i could go on. There is not inherent moral high ground due to democracy, that is a false characterization.
I tend to side with Zakaria in this regard, liberalism is what matters not democracy, so in other words the fact that Israel is democratic means nothing if they abandon liberal principles as they seem to be doing.
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As a note to the trolls: I mean liberalism in the old fashioned sense if you even know what that is.

Getting a little anal for a blog post. You are correct that Hitler was elected however he assumed dictatorial powers. It should go without saying we mean a democracy like in the USA or Israel, Japan, France with a constitution and a balance of power between an Executative, Legislative and judiciary. As far as liberal I would assume you mean in the classical sense of a David Hume in favor of limited government.

Yes in the classical sense of limited government and secularism, populism does not fall into these categories and neither should a state that bases itself on religion, it may be a bit of a provocative statement to make but i do not believe that Israel could still be called a liberal democracy in the truest sense of the term.
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This makes it very hard for me to understand reflexively condoning the actions of a strate that no longer even counts as ideologically kin to yours.

But no one here is talking about terrorists except for you. Both liberals and conservative libertarians, such as myself, by overwhelming numbers agree with you that the tactic of terrorism is deplorable. However, where we fundamentally differ is in our characterization of Palestinians. You see them mostly as radicals and terrorists. I see them mostly as an occupied people who are willing to do anything to strike back at their occupiers. Detest all you want, you’d do the same thing if you were in their shoes. Try to imagine living where you have always lived, where your people have lived for 1300 years, and suddenly you find yourself under the yoke of a colonial regime that takes your land at will, denies you access to local resources, elevates its own ethnic group above yours, humiliates you, arrests your family members, destroys your homes, and burns your crops. You wouldn’t strike back with any means available? The Palestinians are terrorized not terrorists.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mj-rosenberg/the-same-old-bipartisansh_b_202828.html

“Al Qaeda had/has nothing to do with Palestine. Al Qaeda is part of radical Islams war against the rest of the non-muslim world. Osama had no interest in Palestine.“

How do we know that Palestine is more important than Westernization for the anti-American jihadists? First, al Qaeda’s leaders have spoken more often about Palestine and other political issues (pdf) than about moral corruption. Second, when al Qaeda recruits cite their reasons for joining, they more often mention Palestine, Chechnya, and other political issues (pdf) than they do examples of Westernization. Third, incidents of anti-American violence and vandalism in the Middle East have tended to increase during or shortly after dramatic events in Palestine. Fourth, recruitment to al Qaeda has tended to expand during or shortly after escalation of hostilities in Palestine. Fifth, al Qaeda militants are happy to embrace aspects of Western culture when it suits them — witness the use of videos and music in jihadi propaganda — and they are arguably more pragmatic about matters moral and ritual than many other Islamists.
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–http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/03/31/lady_gaga_vs_the_occupation

I think the liberal ideas that were embraced by Americans in the days of FDR or LBJ are equally resonant today.
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There’s no real disagreement here, just a lack of clarity on my part! “Status quo” would have been a better description than “traditional”: liberal ideas have been so marginalized that I honestly never think of them as mainstream. Advocating for a 21st-century New Deal is, IMO, radical.
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In terms of domestic policies, LBJ probably has more in common with Ralph Nader than with anyone who is taken seriously by the political establishment.
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Again, the dems may in fact be incompetent, but if one acknowledges that market-based solutions/corp. partnership with government make up their agenda, it’s hard for me to see how they’re failing. Reducing any of this to electoral success is shortsighted IMO–there’s a deeper battle at play here, one that Shep referred to as a 10-year coup d’état by the oligarchy (past tense).
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I apologize if I’ve posted this before, but this (fascinating and concise) piece written by the historian Gary Willis about a dinner with Obama seems relevant to this discussion: http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2010/jul/27/obamas-legacy-afghanistan/
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To briefly summarize, Obama is so insulated from left-wing voices that he has completely lost track of where he is on the political spectrum. He’s not Rusty, believing that his health care plan belongs in the Soviet Union, but he probably believes he’s much further to the left than he actually is. From your perspective, or mine, or Shep’s, the Democratic and Republican agendas are very similar (some would argue identical, although I don’t go that far). But I suspect that Obama, and other Democratic politicians, see huge differences. And these are very competitive people who don’t like losing.
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Democrats are not failing to advance their overall agenda, because when they lose, they lose to people who want to advance the same general agenda. But they are still losing and they are still incompetent.
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The question, you might agree, is if “the policies they fight for” are in reality what they hope to achieve, or if it’s merely kabuki for their base.
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I see a distinction between policies they rhetorically support during closely-contested primary campaigns that require extensive grassroots fundraising and the policies they actually “fight” for. And those policies they fight for are completely inadequate. It’s a matter of degrees of inadequacy: They will give in to Republican demands – after losing a very poorly managed campaign – for fiscal policies that are even more dangerous and ineffective than the already dangerous and ineffective fiscal policies they “fought” for.

In what way is Israel any less of a democracy that the USA or France.

From The Declaration Of The Establishment Of The State Of Israel, May 14, 1948
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ACCORDINGLY WE, MEMBERS OF THE PEOPLE’S COUNCIL, REPRESENTATIVES OF THE JEWISH COMMUNITY OF ERETZ-ISRAEL AND OF THE ZIONIST MOVEMENT, ARE HERE ASSEMBLED ON THE DAY OF THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE OVER ERETZ-ISRAEL AND, BY VIRTUE OF OUR NATURAL AND HISTORIC RIGHT AND ON THE STRENGTH OF THE RESOLUTION OF THE UNITED NATIONS GENERAL ASSEMBLY, HEREBY DECLARE THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A JEWISH STATE IN ERETZ-ISRAEL, TO BE KNOWN AS THE STATE OF ISRAEL.
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You cannot be both liberally democratic and ethno-religiously homogeneous.

Let me count the ways rdw:
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1. Civil Rights Act
2. First Amendment
3. Fourth Amendment
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There are others, but those stand out.
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Let’s see you trump ‘em without your inane rationalizations…

“There’s no real disagreement here, just a lack of clarity on my part!”
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Yeah, I almost began by asking you to clarify that remark. Then I thought “this is Rose,” who writes with such precision…
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While I agree that the liberal ideas are in the margins of the margins, no amount of (corporate) media criticism or excoriation of the GOP’s 30 year disinformation campaign sufficiently accounts for it. If Clinton or Obama were authentic liberals offering muscular narratives, it would be reported, period, not to mention that with the biggest soapbox in the land, it’d go unfiltered into Americans’ ears for 4-8 years. But, yes, if some of Reagan’s statements seem radical in this day & age, one can only guess what the reaction would be to a fireside chat positing a new New Deal.
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You may be right about how Obama perceives himself but it’s largely academic, however engaging in its way. He will be judged on his actions, or inaction where working class Americans are concerned. In any event, yes, they’re very competitive people and they do want to win. Sadly, the rub of the matter is that they’re terrified of identifying with the have nots. Never was this more vividly encapsulated than when Obama flirted with populist rhetoric only to backtrack and say what a good guy Lloyd Blankfein was, that no one should begrudge the uber wealthy for their lucre.
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Obviously, being the next incarnation of FDR would be (would have been) hugely successful for Obama and his 2nd term would be assured. But these folks operate according to a different calculus, one involving a lot of numbers beyond the vote count. And with the revolving doors to K Street and corporate offices wide open, a loss might sting a bit, ego, tv time and such, but in the end they’ll fall back down to earth in their golden parachutes while most Americans see their dreams rot on the vine.
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This is wonderfully put: “Democrats are not failing to advance their overall agenda, because when they lose, they lose to people who want to advance the same general agenda.”
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“But they are still losing and they are still incompetent.” This may be true but the sad fact of the matter is if they were winning Americans would still be losing. That’s what makes voting, “our choice,” so laughable.
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Anyway, as others have said, thanks for dropping by and engaging Rose. You’ve been missed.

Not quite sure what point you are trying to make. Osama had never been interested in the plight of the Palestinians instead focuses on Saudi Arabia, Africa and Afghanistan. This is where all the efforts of Al QAeda and the Taliban were focused. That he would make a stand for Palestine and all of islam is merely politics 101. His war is with the entire West and he would love to recruit form and lead all of islam.

If you are trying to suggest the West should not fight back because that just leads to more recruits that’s just the stupid argument of cowards. As Churchill pointed out, hoping the Crocodile eats you last. Islam has been successful to some extent with the secular West but will never be successful with the religious West. Christian America is far more powerful than radical islam and if Osama wants to recruit more young muslims to die for jihad then die they will.

This can only end one of two ways. Either Islam will have it’s reformation with the moderates crushing the radicals or the West will do it for them. If for example Iran were to get the bomb and try to use it Tehran will become inhabitable for 10,000 years and very possibly Mecca as well. Pakistan might very well forment more attacks on India but eventually it can only end one way. As India converts to capitalism they are growing exponentially more powerful.

“Not quite sure what point you are trying to make.”
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You’re an idiot. Point made?

Aren’t you the clever one!

You cannot be both liberally democratic and ethno-religiously homogeneous.

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I don’t see the problem. Israel is a jewish state. Unlike Islamic states it doesn’t ban other religions. Muslims are free to practice Islam in israel just as other religions are able to practice openly. I don’t know of any two democracies that are identical. That Israel doesn’t have a 1st amendment doesn’t mean they lack free speech rights. Palestinians in Israel have more rights than Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza or anywhere else and are much wealthier.

This makes it very hard for me to understand reflexively condoning the actions of

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I don’t reflexively condone anything although we have clear patterns. We know for example Israel tries hard to protect the lives of the innocent while Palestinian terrorists target the innocent. As long as that realize exists it’s vortually impossible to support the Palestinians on much of anything. That’s not the same as condoning everything Israel does but as a true modern, advanced democracy they get the benefit of a doubt.

Yes in the classical sense of limited government and secularism,

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The USA is not a secular state. It’s a Christian state that promises religious freedom.

Just as a matter of interest, how did George W. poll in Muslim countries?