Will Congress Ban Civilian Terrorist Trials?

Some observers viewed the single guilty verdict against the Tanzania Embassy bomber Ahmed Ghailani last week as the death knell for civilian trials for terrorism suspects. Opponents of trying 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed (KSM) and his co-conspirators in Article III courts declared civilian trials too dangerous after the jury convicted Ghailani on just one of 285 criminal counts.

In fact, the damage to civilian terrorism trials from the Ghailani verdict has been limited. The administration is avoiding the costly political fight that would come with trying to put top al Qaeda figures on trial, but is pursuing lower level civilian terrorist trials. And the effort to permanently outlaw all civilian trials–or even just those for top al Qaeda figures–seems to be going nowhere on Capitol Hill.

After Holder announced that KSM would get an Article III trial in Manhattan nearly a year ago, pretty much every politician in New York turned against the idea. In response, Holder quietly put KSM’s trial into suspended animation. The administration tried for months to find an alternate location for a civilian trial, but was everywhere rebuffed by members of Congress and local political figures in the New York, Pennsylvania and Virginia .

“The only place that made sense in the end would be Washington, which has no representatives,” says one supporter of civilian trials on Capitol Hill. But trying KSM in DC would require a legislative fix, since no 9/11 crimes were committed here. Things haven’t improve much for the administration recently. New York Governor-elect Andrew Cuomo came out against a KSM trial anywhere in New York State earlier this month.

The President and the Attorney General still support the idea of broadly using civilian trials to handle terrorism suspects, DoJ and White House officials say, because they think the trials are more effective than military tribunals and because they want to protect the power of the judiciary. And they haven’t given up on civilian trials for the 9/11 conspirators. Their strategy is to proceed with lower-level civilian trials, building a track record of success for them, DoJ and other administration officials say. Down the road, the optimists hope, the political environment will change.

The Ghailani verdict didn’t exactly help that effort, but it didn’t kill it either. Those who want to permanently outlaw civilian trials for terrorists, or even just for 9/11 plotters, don’t seem to be moving ahead with plans to do so. An amendment to block civilian trials for the 9/11 co-conspirators has languished on the Hill for months, but its author, Lindsey Graham, has no current plans to introduce it, his office says. “It’s still hanging out there,” says his spokesman Kevin Bishop.

If he wanted to, Graham could try to move the amendment in the Senate’s lame duck session after Thanksgiving.  The House has already included an explicit ban on the transfer of terrorism suspects to the United States contained in the must-pass defense authorization bill. The Senate doesn’t have a bill yet, but it is one of the few things that may get done before this Congress concludes business in December.

The administration is watching Graham closely. But DoJ officials point to ongoing civilian terrorist trials, like those of underpants bomber Omar Farouk Abdulmutallab and subway bomb plotter Najibullah Zazi, as evidence that the rhetoric surrounding Ghailani doesn’t reflect political reality.

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  • Paul-no not that one

    TPers are terrified of “terrorists”, elected republicans are terrified of TPers, and the party that controls the White House and the Senate are terrified of republicans.
    .
    A nation of wimps.

  • afguy

    P-NNTO,
    .
    Are you saying we need a national Depends© subsidy?

  • liberalmeltdown

    Nah, Congress and the rest of America is terrified of loons that can’t vote guilty and convict a terrorist.

  • Paul-no not that one

    With the deficits we are running?
    .
    We can’t afford the billion dollars it would take.
    .
    I miss living in a confident country.

  • Paul-no not that one

    Good point appropriately named meltdown.
    .
    You are terrified of both your fellow citizens and the legal system.
    .
    A nation of wimps.

  • codepoet2

    the way I look at it is: Why is Congress, as a whole, opposed to prosecuting KSM? The longer you let him rot in a jail without a trial makes YOU look like the bad guy! Seems to me that the cowards in Congress ain’t got no cojones!

  • liberalmeltdown

    Well let’s see what could go wrong…
    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/08/04/entertainment/main757429.shtml
    .
    No Apology For Robert Blake Jury
    Los Angeles D.A. Says ‘Incredibly Stupid’ Jurors Had Wrong Verdict
    .
    http://jurygeek.blogspot.com/2005/09/jury-told-it-must-convict-2nd-cir-gets.html
    .
    And then there was OJ. A double murderer let go, because of juror’s bigotry. Go ahead justify murder…I can hear your crap now. The cops were racist, blah, blah, blah.

  • allthingsinaname

    My God! Your kidding me?

  • apr2563

    When evidence has been derived by torture it is rightly omitted. They did convict him however. So chill.

  • apr2563

    liberalmeltdown: You are pathetic. You obviously have no knowledge of how these cases will be handled and the outcome.
    .
    OK. Let’s wait for the car chase!

  • liberalmeltdown

    285 charges, acquitted on 284. ONE guilty verdict.

  • gysgt213

    The only acceptable out come of a trial is a guilty verdict on all charges. Stupid unamerican jury. If this guy was not guilty of all charges the government would have never arrested him, duh. Everyone knows the government only detains and charges guilty people and only after they fed them their fill of doughnuts and juice boxes.
    .
    Thank the lord our government has the authority (approved by lawyers) that allows indefinite imprisonment of these guilty people despite the rulings and decisions of unamerican courts, judges and juries. Who came up with the stupid stupid idea to involve those people and instutitions in the first place? I can’t wait until our government decides its a good idea to apply this to all of us. Even if you only ran a stop sign you are still a danger to our security and we need to be protected from you. I also think this plays quite well politically for the ruling party.
    .
    Not quite sure though where gov Cumo gets the cajones to decide where and when federals trials take place. Those decisions clearly fall under the jurisdiction of Liz Cheney, that is after all what we elected her for. Cumo needs to STFU.

  • rdw56

    In response, Holder quietly put KSM’s trial into suspended animation

    *********************************************

    You peole are dolts. Quietly? Are you kidding me? You twits think because Time didn’t cover it we don’t know? If all we had was Time for information Obama’s ratings would be 80%. Holder has got to be one of the worst cabinet appointments in history so much so the GOP wants him to stay and remain the bleeding sore. The man is impossibly dense.

    And BTW, something else you should know, we know they haven’t closed Gitmo either.

  • rdw56

    Don’t you think republicans have every reason to be terrified? Play that little logic chain out my friend. I think you already agree with me. Obama’s move left will be reversed and then some. To his credit Obama has actually been to the right of GWB on defense and national security. It’s clear his legal moves for trying terrorists is a shambles. Now the Tea Party is going to move our spending footprint back to pre-Bush levels. How cool is it that as we target spending to a percent of GDP we use Clinton as a guide? It will be at least 1/3 below current levels.

  • rdw56

    No it doesn’t. He’s perfect for exposing liberals as fools. The only reason for this need to try him in NYC is to pander to the French and the other clowns at the UN. That’s purely a liberal thing. Americans don’t give a crap about the UN. Do what we planned to do all along. Give him a military trial and then when his confession is accepted take him out back and kill him. I would not be upset if he is kept alive. He’s a fat slob and a pussy to boot. He cried like a baby after someone poured a cup of water over his head. He’s like Che and Castro and Saddam and all of these other lefty thugs. The more we know of them the more pathetic they become.

  • michaelfury

    There will be no civilian trials for the “9/11 plotters” because they have been tortured to the point of insanity and there is little if any hard evidence of their guilt. Were there such evidence, the government would have put it on the table in open court long ago.

    There are however mountains of exculpatory evidence casting doubt on their exclusive guilt that their defense would be obligated to introduce.

    And where would that lead?

    http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2010/11/16/critical-mass/

  • Paul-no not that one

    “elected republicans are terrified of TPers,”
    .
    “Don’t you think republicans have every reason to be terrified?”
    .
    I appreciate your frankness.

  • luckyjackaubrey

    This seems to be a compelling argument against criminal trials. I agree we should just start executing people as soon as they are accused.

  • rdw56

    Whatever, they’re not getting out, ever. Obama’s election has been devastating for the left in terms of defense and national security policy as well as Justice Dept policy. This is a total humiliation. There will not be trials in criminal courts nor anywhere inside the USA. KSM is the perfect example of leftwing incompetence and depravity. The bottom line is right now Petraeus is in Afghanistan running one of the most aggressive assassination and killing campaigns in US History. JFK, who ordered more than a few assassinations in his day, would be proud of Barak Obama. Something else Time is quiet about. Yet it’s happening.

  • rdw56

    Except he wasn’t tortured.

  • 11charlie

    Outside of the scale of the crime, why is the case against KSM any different than the cases against the 1993 WTC bombers, Timothy McVeigh, and Terry Nichols?
    .
    The latter three were successfully tried and convicted in civilian court, and are either serving life sentences, or were executed.

  • rdw56

    The scale of the crime is no small thing. If you believe we are at war against radical islam, and they are most certainly at war with us. then we use the rules of war and the enemy is not entitled to civilian trials nor is the system designed for war cases. They are not entitled to the rights of citizens. As far as KSM I would not spend the money to give him a platform. I have no doubt we could go and spend $200M to try him in NYC but I’d prefer to use the $200M for something else.

    As far as McVeigh there is no comparison to this case and the WTC bombing should have been by military tribunal. McVeigh was a lone wolf while the other two part of a broad movement that is for all practical purposes an army.

    I think liberals made two fundamental mistakes in arguing for civilian trials. The preening for France and the UN was/is pretty pathetic. Yes they’re entitled to their opinion but they’re not entitled to annoy me with it. As soon as I hear the international community supports A it’s unlikely I do. The 2nd is suggesting the opposition is somehow afraid of giving KSM rights. Not even a little bit. We want him dead. He plead quilty and asked for a firing squad. I would prefer we took him out of his cell tomorrow and accommodated him.

  • michaelfury

    Go ahead, Mr. Holder. Try the “9/11 plotters” in open court. What are you afraid of?

    http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2010/10/31/trick-or-truth/

  • 11charlie

    McVeigh was, and still is, the face of the right-wing extremist movement that had grown in America.
    .
    These groups view the US government, and America in general, in much the same way as many Islamic terrorist groups do: oppresive, corrupt, and decadent. I would consider the militia groups as much of a threat to America as the Islamic groups. Yet, there is no hue and cry to declare a war on them.
    .
    As for the 1993 WTC, I don’t see how giving them a military trial would have been any better than the trial they received. They are currently in a position where they cannot hurt Americans or anyone else, so there’s no real way to improve that situation.
    .
    As for KSM, he was apprehended by the Pakistani government and handed over to the United States as a criminal, not a prisoner of war. Yes, he is not an American citizen, but that does not mean we do with him as we please. We’re America, we are much better than that. If it means putting him on trial as any other criminal, then so be it.

  • rdw56

    McVeigh was, and still is, the face of the right-wing extremist movement that had grown in America.
    .
    These groups view the US government, and America in general, in much the same way as many Islamic terrorist groups do: oppresive, corrupt, and decadent. I would consider the militia groups as much of a threat to America as the Islamic groups. Yet, there is no hue and cry to declare a war on them.

    *******************************************************************
    I didn’t realize how much I, as a conservative, have in common with my Islamic cousins. I too view Obama’s govt as oppressive, corrupt and decadent. But then I think we just wait until 2012 and replace him with Sarah. No need to slaughter innocents.

    I can see why you view militia groups as dangerous as terrorists groups. Look at all of the mass murders they carried out. They’re constantly killing people. We can’t count McViegh as one of them because he was a loner but we can count all of the rest. Lets see there’s that slaughter in Fort Hood. Ok, no wait, he was muslim. Ok, I’ve given this some thought and I can’t think of a single attack by a militia group. So in that event, just how stupid are you?

  • rdw56

    so there’s no real way to improve that situation.

    ***************************************

    We’re buying them lunch every day. It w/b far better if they were dead.

  • rdw56

    Yes, he is not an American citizen, but that does not mean we do with him as we please. We’re America, we are much better than that.

    *********************************************

    KSM has declared war on America and was actively waging it. Our criminal courts are not designed for war. The only sensible approach is military tribunals. If they’re good enough for our soldiers they’re plenty good enough for terrorist scum. Spending $30 to try him in NYC is $30 too much. We are the greatest nation on Gods green earth.

  • http://erieangel.wordpress.com erieangel

    Except that of those terrorists who have been tried, a larger percentage were found guilty in a criminal court than in a military tribunal. And or those found in the tribunal, they’ve gotten lesser sentences than those who were found guilty in ciminal court.
    .
    Hmm, but go ahead, try them all in the less aggresive, less effective military tribunal. The words alone are what is important I guess.

  • http://erieangel.wordpress.com erieangel

    Haha. I was almost done with the first paragraph before I realized you were being sarcastic. Oddly, I’d heard that stuff about “they’re guilty or they wouldn’t have been picked up in the first place” before from several wingnuts who were totally serious and totally believed what they were saying.

  • artraveler

    Still guilty. Remember that the JAG officers are against the way that some in government wanted the GITMO trials handled. Legal is still legal whether you wear a uniform or not and a biased trial is a biased trial and makes front pages across the arab world (and there are a lot of them).

    Let’s try to make this country seem like the country we hoped it would be before we became the world’s bully by invading a country that didn’t invade us or attack us. And don’t throw out that UN stuff since Isreal has ignored more UN resolutions than any other country and we don’t see to have an issue with that.

  • 11charlie

    I didn’t say conservative, I said right-wing extremists. I know many conservatives, and I have met a few right-wing extremists, and I consider them to be two completely separate ideologies. It is despicable that some people do lump the two together, just as it’s despicable that some people lump liberalism with Marxism. But there are those who will do anything for attention.
    .
    And how is the Obama government oppressive, corrupt, and decadent? What actions by him have led you to believe this?
    .
    McVeigh was not a formal member of a milita group, but he was influenced by the kind of right wing extremism that many of these groups support. Just as Nidal Malik Hasan, while not a member of an actual terrorist group, was influenced by Islamic extremism.
    .
    As for acts carried out by right-wing extremist groups, the Southern Poverty Law Center has a list of attacks or attempted attacks (many thankfully stopped by law enforcement agencies) committed by groups and individuals associated with right-wing extremism since the Oklahoma City bombings:
    .
    http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/publications/terror-from-the-right
    .
    So I would say that right-wing extremism is a real threat. But a threat that can be dealt within the scope of the law.

  • 11charlie

    You could say the same about our entire prison community, particularly those facing similar sentences. Just line them up for the firing squad and throw them in mass graves.
    .
    However, as stated above, Americans do not act like that, because we are a better people. It may mean treating people like Ramzi Yousef and Charles Manson more humanely than some people would care for, but if that’s what separates us from the likes of North Korea and Iran, then so be it.

  • 11charlie

    Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols, by bombing a federal building and murdering American citizens, can also be said to have declared war on America. They wanted to see the American government either severly weakened or destroyed, just as much as Khalid Sheikh Mohammed does.
    .
    As for “our criminal courts are not designed for war”, the federal courts have the capability to deal with terrorist cases, even cases where foreign nationals are involved.
    .

    “The only sensible approach is military tribunals. If they’re good enough for our soldiers they’re plenty good enough for terrorist scum.”
    .
    How so? What can a military tribunal accomplish that a federal court cannot?
    .
    “We are the greatest nation on Gods green earth.”
    .
    Since nearly three-quarters of the planet is covered in water, wouldn’t that make it “God’s blue earth”? Just a thought.

  • liberalmeltdown

    KSM and others are not American citizens. They don’t have the rights we do in their Muslim countries, and they shouldn’t have those rights once they have attacked us. Since they like Muslim law so much, it would be fitting for them to be tried and executed like Saddam Hussein. That’s not going to happen. But, since they hate our civilization including the right to a fair trial protected by the Constitution of the United States, it would be stupid to insist that we give them the same rights that a citizen that they would like to see dead has. A military tribunal is too good for them, but it’s the best alternative.
    .

  • rdw56

    Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols, by bombing a federal building and murdering American citizens, can also be said to have declared war on America

    *****************************************

    They were citizens and they were pretty specific in what they were attacking and it was the specific govt. They didin’t want to change from democracy just make it less overbearing.

  • rdw56

    the federal courts have the capability to deal with terrorist cases, even cases where foreign nationals are involved.

    *****************************************

    Critic of military tribunals miss the point. It’s why you are unable to move public opinion your way. No one is afraid of trying them in courts. No one, except libs, care what the French think. No one, exceot the radical left, wants to spend over $100 transferring them to US soil. They want them dead in the cheapest, quickest way. There is a subset who wants them kept alive because seeing America flourish while they’re helpless is better punishment.

  • rdw56

    Since nearly three-quarters of the planet is covered in water, wouldn’t that make it “God’s blue earth”? Just a thought.

    *********************************

    No, calling the USA ‘the greatest nation on God’s Green Earth” is a twofer. God’s green earth is a phrase that’s been around for the ages. It symbolized the belief by many our bounty comes from God. Most libs really despise the fact all conservatives consider the USA the greatest nation. Admittedly, we’re smug bastards in that regard. Moreover, we are for the most part religious, to some degree, while liberals prefer to banish religion from the public square. Therefore, the ‘God’s green earth part’ is a taunt, designed to annoy liberals even more. I do believe many democrats who are religion have been bullied into hiding the fact the believe in God. It’s PC in many circles not to even discuss religion because some gentle souls might be offended. The point of the taunt is to tell you where you can cram your PC.

  • rdw56

    What can a military tribunal accomplish that a federal court cannot?

    ************************************************
    Many of the rules of evidence are different because the circumstances of capture are different. Soldiers are not cops. There are no miranda rights on the battlefield. This has nothing to do with the capabilites of federal courts.

    interestingly, Obama has so butchered this thing KSM isn’t going to be tried at all. The law is clear these combatants can be held until hostilities are over and the civilized world has been fighting Islam since the day Islam was born. I don’t see their reformation coming this century.

    I think what’s going to happen in captivity is the already chubby KSM will become obese, get diabeties and slowly lose his mind. My understanding is they get to play videogames all the time. Talk about cruel and unusual. Get him fat, stupid and lazy. Another 5 or 10 years of that he’ll be useless to jihad.

  • 11charlie

    You seem to be obsessed with the view that liberals, or anyone who wants to see KSM tried in federal court, is somehow only trying to appease the French.
    .
    Apparently, the Bush administration was all about making the French happy, since they tried and convicted over 300 terrorists after 9/11. And yet no complaining when they did so.

  • 11charlie

    “They didin’t want to change from democracy just make it less overbearing.”
    .
    Democracy is overbearing? Did not know that.
    .
    And so McVeigh and Nichols were just trying to make America a better place? And the 168 innocent lives lost on that day were just what, collateral damage?

  • 11charlie

    “Therefore, the ‘God’s green earth part’ is a taunt, designed to annoy liberals even more.”
    .
    Using God to irritate people. Jesus would be proud.

  • lineofvision

    This may be a stupid question, but has it occurred to the fear mongers and naysayers that he actually might be innocent of the charges? Does it occur to anyone that a good reason to what someone has said under torture is that their confession is not necessarily the truth – but the truth the torturers want to hear?

    How many people screaming for his guilt actually know who he is or what he was accused of, and the true circumstances of his arrest? Or is it enough that he has a Muslim name, and was held at Gitmo?

    Just shows you how much confidence right-wingers and Republicans have in the American justice system under the bus – in order to protect our freedoms, of course.

  • rdw56

    There were only 3 people waterboarded and all 3 confessed to a series of crimes and asked for the firing squad. The prime example we’ve been discussing is KSM. He cut off Daniel Pearl’s head on videotape. So No, it hasn’t occurred to any remotely same person he is innocent.

  • rdw56

    So I’m not perfect, sue me!

  • rdw56

    I really don’t remember what motivated McVeigh nor do I care. We have sociopaths among us and they kill. The broader point is that he was a loner and not connected to any other group. This lefty theme of right wing militia groups is comical. Liberals are never one’s to left facts get in the way of their prize slurs. Time not too long ago did a cover story keeping the nonsense alive.

    Got a big problem here. Zero evidence! When did these so-called militia’s rise up in bloody revolt? I missed it. I can’t think of a single incident. There’s Waco but that’s a small cult about 1/20′s the size of the James Jones group from San Francisco. Plus the feds did all of the kiling. There is Ruby Ridge which I think was about 2 families and the feds did all of the killing there and what else?

    Time can sell this BS to it’s audience because they don’t know any better. If it’s in the magazine it’s true. But sane people will consider the number of terrorist acts by muslims and then by right wing militia’s and when they can’t get above zero for the militia’s just chuckle at the clowns at Time. This is why Newsweek sold for a $1 and was then taken over by a blog.

  • rdw56

    The French are my proxy for the international community. It’s more insulting to just use the French because of their reputation as cowards and backstabbers and the fact they are so annoying. My 2nd favorite line from General Patton, “I’d rather have a German division in front of me than a French division behind me”. We’ve freed them from the Germans 2x’s and are the only reason they don’t speak Russian today Yet liberals think we should listen to them. Perhaps, but only to learn what not to do.

    FYI: I am referring only of the French elites. Few societies are more aristocratic. The French soldiers in WWI and WWII were quite brave.

  • rdw56

    Not really. our criminal system is far from perfect but then so are we. I’m basically OK with who we have on death row but would limit appeals. Int’l terrorist are a different category. I’d consider a visit for KSM into our justice system for a month and maybe even a tour. Start him at graterford prison for a week where he can be girlfriend to most of the population and then move him around.

    Terrorism has to be ended and it can only be ended if the people doing it suffer greatly and their political aims are denied. I can’t imagine why muslims support terror. 9/11 was a total disaster politically. I honestly believe if Iran launched a missle at tel-aviv and killed 1,000 jews, Americans would support Israel turning Tehran / all of Iran into a nuclear wasteland for 10,000 years. If Islam wishes to fight a religious war using terrorism there is no doubt in my mind the other side will try to exterminate them and the casualties could easily get past the tens of millions.

  • rdw56

    ops, 15.2 s/b 14.3

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