Middle East Pieces

http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2010/08/23/as-the-crow-flies/

You are out of your mind. You’ve got a better chance of Obama working with McConnell and Boehner than of BiBi resigning his govt. That’s utterly nonsensical. As Netanyahu has done to Obama he’s as done to Livni. That is run a political clinic on her. He completely out maneuvered her immediately after the election and has continued to do so. His polls are solid and she is a non-entity.

Time has never been so out of touch as you are now on Israel. A month ago you traveled to Israel to find, to your astonishment, the Israeli people are not fans of Obama and they think this process is a waste of time. Further you were totally unaware Israel has been in a long run economic boom and the fence has been a huge success in ending suicide attacks. The same week Matt Ynglesis of the New Republic made the same trip and was equally astonished. Get out of the echo chamber.

Israel has the staunch support of Americans and the vast majority disagree with every sentiment written here. The fact is religious Americans will always support any democracy fighting for it’s life against any/all Islamic groups seeking it’s extermination. Until the entire Islamic world acknowledges Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish state it will always be so. Time and Obama are in a very small minority. BiBi is smarter, more experienced and savvier than Obama and Livni and will hold that position for a very long time.

It is absolutely absurd for the Obama administration to submit to bribery. In spite of what AIPAC and the American Jewish Lobby believe, Israel is a terrorist state. Look up the definition of the term and you will see that it fits all the criteria. They are harsh occupiers. As one report recently indicated, the Israelis are perfectly content with the status quo. I wouldnt trust BenNet any more than I would trust Iran and North Korea. It is time for us to say “—- or get off the pot.” No more aid or support.

Whoa rdw56 & Alex Vallas… way to be typically right & left on this issue, respectively.
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Israel is not a terrorist state, but neither is it fighting for its life. Not any more. This isn’t 40 years ago.
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Bibi is terrible. Whether or not he has high scores at home doesn’t mean he’s doing the right things – despite high poll numbers, most Israelis understand he’s just playing the same old games. I doubt he cares about the Palestinians at all; he wants to keep power and earn free rewards from the US. Truth is, Israeli society is to complacent with the status quo to change things.
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Israel, as ever, is extremely unpopular in many parts of the world, but unlike before, the bad reputation is more and more deserved. Until Israel is the one actively extending the olive branch, they will be seen as aggressors. At least when Arafat was in power (and thank god he’s gone) the PLO would reject Israel’s overtures of peace outright, no matter the offer. At least Israel had political cover. Now might be different, and Abbas might accept a reasonable deal – but Israel is the one currently sabotaging the process. For shame.
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Joe is unrealistic when it comes to Bibi dissolving his govt. We more likely will have to wait fro him to be ousted.

The Netanyahu government, on the other hand, has been among the least responsible in Israeli history. It is populated by anti-Arab bigots like Foreign Minister Avigdore Lieberman;

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Hard to know what is harder for Joe to accept. The fact no one in Israel pays him any mind or the fact the MSM can’t do anything to make them pay for it. They are incapable of moving the needle. Americans understand the situation in Israel. Joe wants us to forget the pictures of islamic suicide bombers during the infatada walking onto school buses and blowing up little girls. It’s not going to happen. Support for Israel has never been higher due in part to having experienced islamic suicide bombers.

“They are, after all, illegal”

This is nonsense. Palestine was created by the League of Nations as a Homeland for the Jews, and that is plain international law that is still on the books, absorbed by the UN at its founding.

It is Abbas that is refusing to negotiate, putting up demands on construction before an agreement is even made, and it is Netanyahu who is ready to negotiate. Klein has it the other way around, which is incorrect.

There isn’t much that Israel can get from these negotiations, though. Abbas and the PA are propped up by the US, and at age 75, Abbas won’t be around to run any new state that might be formed. Nobody knows who will follow him. A West Bank state would be subject to takeover by Hamas, Hezbollah, and Syria, so any agreements made are not likely to be kept for long.

With little to gain that is guaranteed, why should Netanyahu want a 2-state agreement so much that he’d want to dissolve his own government?

An Israeli doesn’t have to a bigot to be anti-Arab; there’s been an on-and-off war running for half a century. Things like that tend to ruin your attitude.

Joe is unrealistic when it comes to Bibi dissolving his govt. We more likely will have to wait fro him to be ousted.

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It’s more than unrealstic. It’s bonehead stupid. BiBi is popular because he’s doing what the voters want done. The voters can oust BiBi just about anytime they like. They’ve already ousted him once. Therein lies the rub. BiBi is savvy. He’s been there. He understands the need to appeal to a majority and to effectively combat a hostile US President. This is something he did not do with Clinton. But then Obama is no Clinton and this isn’t the same Nertanyahu.

As low as my opinion is of the MSM elites I still find myself astonished they think this is just like 1997. As if the infatada and 9/11 never happened. They did and as a result what used to pass for the left in Israel has all but been wiped out. Labor is the #4 party behind a new far right party which is behind the Likud and Kadima which are essentially tied. What was the far lift has 1/3 as many seats. Israel has moved decisively to the right.

This environment is what made the superb fence possible. Times astonishment a month ago was primarily the fact Israeli’s felt safe and prosperous. It was always cruel for the left to fight the fence but not unwise. This is what Joe always feared. If the populace were safe the need to ‘negotiate’ would diminish. Thus when Time tries to lecture the israeli public on the dire need for negotiations they chuckle and head back to the beach. They have 401K and a growing economy. Life is good inside Israel. Obama’s power is checked by Congress and BiBi is doing to Obama what Clinton one did to him. The Senate and House will next January be dramatically more supportive of BiBi Netanyahu.

I think the world consensus is pretty clear on Israel being an aggressor and a terrorist state. In most US Sec. Council resolutions against Israel (of which there are many), its always 200 some countries in favor and the U.S. and Israel against it. Moreover, Israel even bites the hand that feeds it. According to the CIA report on espionage activity (2009), Israeli intelligence posed the third largest intelligence threat to the U.S. (Russia and China being the first two). So we give billions of dollars in annual aid to a developed country of just 7 million and what do we get in return? Stalled peace processes and industrial and technological espionage. Its time we get rid of this belligerent parasite called Israel. Lets see how long it takes them to make peace with their neighbors once the U.S. refuses to fight their wars and finance their military.

Bibi is terrible. Whether or not he has high scores at home doesn’t mean he’s doing the right things

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Actually it does. He’s doing what the people want him to do. Obama may or may not think he’s entitled to do what he thinks is right against the will of the people in which case he won’t get a 2nd term. Israeli’s like Americans consider themselves self-governed. We are not ruled by elites. They are appointed to short terms to act on our behalf. As long as BiBi continues to serve the needs of the Israeli people he will be asked to continue to serve and as it looks now will almost certainly outlast Obama.

As far as what others think that a teenage affectation that also exists among liberals. The Israeli’s will do what they think it right. Joe and Obama are entitled to their opinions and the Israeli are entitled to ignore them. Just as we ignore the French and take pleasure in doing so,.

Again, about that cover story from Israel a month ago professing shock the Israeli’s were not paying attention to Obama’s peace talks. I have to think the elites at Time were less infuiriated that the Israeli’s didn’t see the importance of the talks and more infuriated at the fact they didn’t much care about Time or Obama.

Oh please, save your crocodile tears. How many Israeli lives have been lost to suicide bombings in the last ten years? Its time to stop painting the victims as the perps and the perps as the victims. In the last Gaza war alone, 1400 Palestinians paid with their lives while only 13 Israeli’s were killed. Even Goldstone, a known Zionist, called Israel a war criminal in his UN commissioned report about the Gaza war. The truth is Israelis don’t care about peace. Not only would they lose the illegally occupied land if peace was achieved, they would also lose the billions they extort from the U.S. taxpayers.

It is time for us to say “—- or get off the pot.” No more aid or support.

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Alex, libs have been having this wet dream for decades and it’s just not going to happen. In the very unlikely event Obama could try to cut the aid Congress would almost certainly find a way to restore it. Almost all of the aid gets to purchase American products supporting American business and on that basis alone would be extremely unpopular. But the major reason is support for Israel is at or above all time highs with an almost 4 to 1 edge. Liberals are out on a limb by themselves. 9/11 strengthened and cemented the support for Israel at the expense of support for the muslim world.

Obama has already reversed his stupid policy of confrontation with Netanyahu which BiBi played up perfectly. An example of Obama’s pitiful communications is his famous Cairo speech to the Islamic world. Among the many things he got wrong was Jewish history. It’s pretty clear from then on most Israeli’s wrote him off as uneducated and ignorant regarding Israel. BiBi had been very successful as finance minister and Israel boomed. They are starting to boom again and he will get credit. He is going to be PM a long time.

I think the world consensus is pretty clear on Israel being an aggressor and a terrorist state.

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There are few things more useless than world consensus. The UN is a left wing zoo. One of the things I look forward two from the next Congress and then the next administration is a very significant scale back of funding for left causes such as NPR, PBS, NEH but especially the UN. Jesse Helms did great work holding up funding but this Congress won’t just hold funding up there will be severe cuts. Don’t be surprised if the EU goes along.

The Netanyahu government, on the other hand, has been among the least responsible in Israeli history. It is populated by anti-Arab bigots like Foreign Minister Avigdore Lieberman; it has eased security somewhat on the West Bank, but it continues to build settlements in the Palestinian capital of East Jerusalem.

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For those of you who get their news exclusively from Time and were also shocked a month ago to find out the Israeli’s were so safe and prosperous they weren’t paying Obama much attention allow me to point out something Joe probably still hasn’t grasped. A very significant event made possible by netanyahu and sharon was the deregulation of the Israeli economy and the resulting boom. BiBi understands the political benefits of a strong economy and has been working with the Palestinians under a framework established by Bush to super charge the West Bank economy and get the Palestinians focused on commerce. Matt Yenglesas was just as shocked to find Ramallah a prosperous, safe and relatively modern city. Netanyahu pulled back many of the roadblocks asa goodwill gesture to the Palestinian moderates and give their economy a new boost. The plan is to create an economic boom in the West Bank under an entirely different govt than in Gaza so the two populations eventually become fully distinct.

it’s actually quite brilliant when you think about it. Israel obviously can’t negotiate with Hamas and eventually must defeat them. Why not let Abbas do it? If the West Bank can continue to grow at 10%+ rates as it develops more of the institutions of govt common in the west they will become far more prosperous and productive than Gaza. Gaza is a client state of the UN will most likely remain a welfare state 10 years from now remaining essentially dysfunctional as a state while the West Bank could very possibly triple the size of their economy, get unemployment down to 5% and have the most open and capitalistic economy in the arab world.

Compound out the 12% growths rates easily possible and you will be astonished at how fast real wealth is created. This of course will aid the Israeli economy further boosting their economy and also Jordan. It’s a win/win/win. Well not for the folks in Gaza under the thumb of Hamas. It’s very likely given the tense relations that have existed for almost a decade between the Wb and Gaza that by 2020 the average Palestinian in the WB will have a much higher life style and for those under 30 a very different life experience. It’s very possible someone aged 15 living in Ramallah will have far more in common wirh a 15-yr old arab-american living in Detroit than one in Gaza city.

When you look at how the situation is evolving you can appreciate Netanyahu’s vision which is shared by West Bank Palestnians for obvious reasons. Right now Obama is an impediment for both.

You really do like holding conversations with yourself, don’t you? What’s the saying, step out of the echo chamber?

I am thorough. It’s a good thing. Are you annoyed? Gee, would not want that to happen. Look up the Israeli cover story of a month ago. Time magazine had no idea the Israeli people had almost no interest in Obama’s efforts. How is that possible?

Liberals are so predictable. The infatada happened over a decade ago but will be remembered forever because it is politically useful to do so just as American conservatives will never forget 9/11. Islam decided to use heinous acts to advance their religion thinking liberals were/are so weak they’d cower. They got that right. Sharon, Netanyahu, GWB unfortunately for Islam are not liberals. They essentially started a religious war and they are going to lose it just as they did in Gaza.

Just consider the progression of the last 10-12 years. Israel and the USA have invested a fortune in anti-terror and couner-insurgency in terms of tactics, weapons,etc. Israel crushed Hamas by adapting the tools and methods of Patraeus which he continues to enhance in Afghanistan to the point even Karzai is upset at the level of killing. Moreover with Obama having approved tactics like assassinations from drone wolf-packs westerners are much safer and the killing has almost become a video game. This is what happens in the west when the societies are generally religious. Americans and Jews are not considering surrender. If radical muslims want to die for their religion by attacking christians and jews then die they will.

Note the rules of engagement. For example proportional response isn’t the nonsense liberals are selling. The correct response to 9/11 for example is not some multiple of the 3,000 deaths suffered but the effort necessary to eradicate the threat from radical Islam. If for example 5% of the worlds 1.2B muslims have been radicalized and wish to exterminate all jews and christians then the religious west has the right and responsibility to kill all of those 60M muslims in order to protect our innocents. In this regard the image of a palestinian suicide bomber walking onto a bus full of young jewish girls going to school and killing them is quite powerful to both Christians and Jews. Obviously no just people can allow such behavior to pass without a full response. IMO this is why Obama likes drone wolfpacks. You get to exterminate the really bad guys while not putting your own troops at risk. Drone Wolfpacks are a proportional response.

Annoyed? Nah. I just thought it funny that, upon scrolling through the comments, there’s a good chunk of you talking to yourself. I didn’t bother reading it this time.
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I haven’t done enough reading on the Israeli-Palestinian situation to have formed a good opinion. However, judging from your past comments, I’d rather not start with someone who is has shown he is clueless about other things and refuses to see facts when presented in black and white text in front of him.

Ben Smith Spills the Beans: Obama’s Middle East Policy Is a Disaster
Jennifer Rubin – 11.22.2010 – 3:20 PM

Ben Smith reveals what nearly every serious Middle East observer already knows: Obama has made things worse, not better, in that volatile region. He reports:

Instead of becoming a heady triumph of his diplomatic skill and special insight, Obama’s peace process is viewed almost universally in Israel as a mistake-riddled fantasy. And far from becoming the transcendent figure in a centuries-old drama, Obama has become just another frustrated player on a hardened Mideast landscape. …

Meanwhile, Palestinian leaders have refused American demands to hold peace talks with the Israelis before the freeze is extended. Talks with Arab states over gestures intended to build Israeli confidence – a key part of Obama’s early plan — have long since been scrapped.

The political peace process to which Obama committed so much energy is considered a failure so far. And in the world’s most pro-American state, the public and its leaders have lost any faith in Obama and – increasingly — even in the notion of a politically negotiated peace.

Obama naturally blames everyone else. But the criticism is biting and personal: it is Obama and his misguided ideology that are at the root of the problem: Read the rest of this entry »

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This is from the Obama worshiping politico. His policy was Harvard level stupid and Netanyahu has rolled him.

The topic doesn’t interest you but then you go into Joe’s post to read the uninteresting topic.

LInky, linkies rdw56. Here is a rebuttal to the POLITICO piece by Ben Smith. In usual POLITICO journalism, nothing but one side interviewed.
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http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2010/11/excuses-for-israel.html
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http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2010/11/how-many-likudniks-can-you-quote-in-one-article.html

Oh, what a bunch of sick puppies!
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We have Israel building yet another fence. Who woulda thunk it.
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By the time Israel gets done, they will have taken all the land, leaving some 4 1/2 million landless Palestinians, and built a high fence around the whole shebang so no one can peek in and indulge in their version of “antisemitism”, which means, basically, holding Israel responsible for anything!
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Hells bells! Full speed ahead and damn those moral torpedoes! It’s time for Avigdor Lieberman’s most cherished dreams to be realized!
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After all, Palestinians are just animals, right?
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Right, rdw? Right? Speak up!
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I hope that Israel, in it’s lust for land and haste for privacy, builds their walls thick, high, and tall.
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Then, the only appropriate name for the compacted, self serving hellhole of a bowl full of bigots, frothing, fervent “settlers”, together with their victims, (not to mention honest and fair minded Israelis) will earn the name they deserve:
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Jericho…

Not quite sure what what the thrust of Sullivan’s argument is. He appears to want to discredit Smith as biased in following the MSNBC formula of having only those who agree as quest.’experts’. Sullivan points out only one Palestinian was quoted. Smith made it clear Obama’s plan is a shambles among Israeli’s. That’s exactly what the Times own cover story reported a month ago and is consistent with what Joe is saying here. If the point is what the Israeli’s think why interview a Palestinian?

Sullivan also rails about the settlement construction without addressing the core mistake. Israel has been building settlements for most of the last 50 years AND holding talks. Not until Obama made it a showstopper were they a showstopper. That’s an egregious and glaring tactical mistake on his part.

My point in posting Smith is that he’s an Obama groupie. Not on the level of Sullivan but a fan nonetheless. I don’t see how you can dispute Obama’s tactics have been a failure. There are no talks nor much hope for them and the people of Israel don’t want Obama near any negotiations. That’s Obama’s doings not Netanyahus.

After all, Palestinians are just animals, right

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No, not animals. One has to feel sorry for them. Arafat was certainly an animal as was/is every suicide bomber and their supporters. The old saying is you get the leadership you deserve. In Gaza and the WB the parties in power now were elected. The vast majority are innocents looking for the same thing as everyone else. They’re paying the price for electing and supporting terror. Not until they make it clear they reject such ways will they have any opportunity for US support.

It’s actually quite amazing. As far out of the mainstream as liberalism is on so many issues nothing is as decisive as Israel. Americans support Israel but a margin of more than 4 to 1. Such numbers are rare in politics. Americans simply will not countenance terrorism in any way for even a second. I actually think there are two different but equally powerful forces at work. 1st blowing up little jewish girls is simply barbaric. The infatada will go down as the dumbest political strategy of all time. For so many Americans the image of a Palestinian is someone so full of hatred they’ll blow up children and will cheer when others do so. That’s obviously sick. The 2nd issue, equally intractable, is I think 9/11 was a declaration of religious war by radical islam against all other religions. This isn’t a problem for liberals but for seriously religious christians and jews as well as all conservatives this is a big time issue and it will not go way until Islam has a reformation. Moderate muslims cannot just announce they do not support radicals but must forceably expel them.

The bottom line is liberals are pissing in the wind on Palestine. It’s a closed issue. Minds are made up. To the extent any Palestinian endorses terrorism in any way that 4 to 1 ratio will stay for decades. It’s pretty clear Israel has decided they will grow and prosper behind the fence and make sure if a neighbor gets antsy the cost will be severe. It appears the WB Palestinians have also moved on devoting themselves to developing their economy and the mechanisms of a modern state. Time favors them both. Gaza not so much.

I see you are at your usual games again, RDW.
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The glorification of statistics and kill ratios persists, as does your love for might as a measure of right. I’m seeing a theme emerge among all your posts: the Israelis should be held to a different standard than the Palestinians. You see, it is painfully obvious that when discussing Israeli policies and actions, you only speak in terms of effectiveness. Any policy that is effective and any political maneuvering that is savvy automatically translates into a positive for Israel no matter the human toll. Inversely, when discussing Palestinian actions, everything is gauged in terms of right/wrong. If Palestinians engage is inflammatory rhetoric or pursue strategies that result in civilian deaths, these actions are automatically considered a negative for Palestine, no matter the extreme conditions that cause such. Do you see your own hypocrisy, your own double standards? Your Israeli apologism knows no bounds of rationality, your anti-Palestinian animosity likewise knows no bounds of rationality. You cry and bemoan the savagery of Palestinian katyusha rockets, little more than bottle-rockets, that may result in a few destroyed Israeli roofs, an injured old man, and crying young girl, while absolutely disregarding and ignoring the Israeli airstrike that kills 13 Palestinians at a wedding reception that directly precedes the rocket attack. Then you go on to exhort Netanyahu’s masterful manipulation of imagery and symbolism, i.e. propaganda. Your concept of morality is twisted.

If Palestinians engage is inflammatory rhetoric or pursue strategies that result in civilian deaths, these actions are automatically considered a negative

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Well, in what situation would any strategy that results in a civilian death not be automatically considered a negative?

I’ve been clear and specific. The problem is terrorism. The intentional butchery of innocents as on 9/11 and by so many suicide bombers during the infatada.

I said nothing of the rockets which I consider bonehead stupid. All it does is reinforce the notion islam is at war with the world and will target innocents at will. Obama would probably like to kill aid to israel but it’s a political impossibility. So Israel and the USA use their technological prowess to better fight terrorism by keeping the kill ratios growing. I think it was near 150-1 in Gaza. The lesson to Palestinians is, OK, you want to do this, the cost will be crushing and eventually extermination. Proportionality allows one to do whatever is necessary to end an injustice. If Israel needs to kill 25,000 Gazans to get Hamas to stop firing rockets into Israel they have the right and responsibility to do so.

I think you are missing the forest for the trees. What do you think happens when Hamas attacks Israel and it’s rockets reach Tel Aviv? I think you know as well as I do the jews will take out Gaza city. They will not have any choice but to make the cost of attacking Tel Aviv so catestrophic as to be unthinkable. The supports of Hamas are in fact their worst enemy. To the extent their support lulls Hamas into thinking they can get a political advantage with an attack and expect Isreal won’t risk a UN censure. They’ll do a lot more than that. I’d bet if 100 Israeli’s were killed in Tel Aviv is rocket attack the counter attack will kill 100,000.

Then you go on to exhort Netanyahu’s masterful manipulation of imagery and symbolism, i.e. propaganda

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Actually I’m not so sure Netanyahu has been masterful. I think Obama is a buffoon and he’s so enraged the Jewish people BiBi hasn’t had to be masterful. Obama is really a worst case scenario for liberals. He’s been touted as this intellectual just it seems most of what he knows is wrong. His grand speech from Cairo to the world muslims seems to have assumed the jews would not be listening. He insulted them by butchering their history. If he can’t be bothered to respect Jewish history why should they show him any respect?

Why do you refuse to hit the reply button? It’s impossible to follow these arguments with you. Is this an intention tactic to draw other readers away from what was said to you and refocus only on what you have to say?

If Israel needs to kill 25,000 Gazans to get Hamas to stop firing rockets into Israel they have the right and responsibility to do so.
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I’d bet if 100 Israeli’s were killed in Tel Aviv is rocket attack the counter attack will kill 100,000.
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These statements prove your utter hypocritical immorality. You are perfectly ok with Israelis massacring Palestinians to prevent attacks, but not ok with Palestinians defending their territory from an illegal occupation. Sick.

I am simply restating the concept of proportionality. I don’t really think Hamas will strike Tel Aviv. The reason why the WB leadership has been so cooperative is because Arafat lived the last two years of his life wallowing in his own crap. Abbas has no interest in going out this way. They know they’ve lost any shot at USA support for generations and that the price for inciting Israel will be very painful. The reason Hamas has been so docile is the beating they took a few years ago. Understanding Netanyahu is not to be toyed with and attack now would be suicidal.

I do have questions Hamas could lose control but the Palestinians in the West Bank have turned the corner. They are building a state and they will eventually agree on borders. .

And what does the concept of proportionality say about Palestinian responses to Operation Cast Lead, or the Lebanese response to the 2006 campaign? Sabra and Shatila? Deir Yassan? King David Hotel? The occupation of Gaza and the West Bank? The embargo of Gaza?

A large number of Americans support Israel because they are unaware of the fact that Israel is an apartheid state or that it is a terrorist state. You see, our media screams bloody murder whenever a Hamas fired rocket, inaccurate as they are, lands in Israel but remains mum when Israel murders hundreds of innocent Palestinians or when it practically incarcerate them in an open prison (Gaza under seige).

I’m sorry I don’t share your bigoted views rdw. When I see the Palestinians suffering, I see human beings, not just suicide bombers as you do.

Well I guess it’s a chicken and egg type thing and it depends on whose side you are on. Operation cast lead was in response to rocket fire into Israel after Israel left Gaza. Even Obama agreed Israel had a right to defend itself. There has been much progress in terms of Hamas keeping a lower profile after taking a major beating. For sure they’ve re-armed by now as had hezbollah in Southern Lebanon but Israel has benefitted tremendously from US advances in battle in Iraq and Afghanistan and the IDF is far more lethal while taking fewer risks. Obama also agrees Israel has a right to prevent arms smuggling into Gaza. I think it’s pretty clear where we are. Hamas has no intention in making peace and is essentially at war with Fatah. Israel and Fatah have a defacto peace and are cooperating to improve the position of West Bank Palestinians relative to Gazans. They will continue to cooperate to raise the standard of living and build a viable state in the WB. Gaza will remain a UN welfare state under the thuggish Hamas. Time will drive these two Palestniians societies apart. Either Hamas will figure it out and move toward cooperation or there will be another confrontation with Israel applying devastating force to ensure Hamas find the cost unsustainable.

It appears to me Hamas is going to have to be exhausted by war to make peace. The deal is there to be had. Acknowledge Israel’s right to exist and walk the talk. Israel is not leaving. Right now with the fence protecting Israel and almost constant investment in military technology it seems Israel will just get stronger relative to Gaza and the other backwards nations in the region. As long as Israel remains prosperous and keeps investing in it’s defense time is their friend.

Even Obama agreed Israel had a right to defend itself.
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Well of course! He’s an American president! Never has an American president claimed that Israel cannot defend herself. Even I don’t suggest that Israel cannot defend herself. Unfortunately, Operation Cast Lead was not self-defense. In November 2008 an Israeli airstrike in Gaza killed 13 Hamas members. The rocket barrages that followed that act of war was what Israel claimed to be defending herself from. But, anyway you cut it, Israel struck first. One cannot throw the first blow, then when someone retaliates, come down on them with the fury of Hell and claim self-defense. That’s absurd. Call it what it is: an act of war by Israel, which, incidentally, was planned for over a year.

In November 2008 an Israeli airstrike in Gaza killed 13 Hamas members.

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You see, there’s the rub. I’m not gong to get into the childish, pointless and impossible to solve question of who started what. But when Israel takes action they strive to avoid innocents. As you point out above they were successful. Palestinian and oher Islamic terrorists go after the innocent. They want to kill the little girls on school buses or the people of New York City. Radical Islam has declared war on the civilized world. Liberals will navel gaze wondering whey they did wrong. Conservatives go about figuring out who to kill as many of them as possible in as short a time as possible with as minimal risk as possible. They don’t apologize or move slowly. There can be no question those who have declared war on us and all of their supporters must be exterminated. It’s the only decent thing to do. We must protect and defend our innocents. Since you haven’t figured it out let me promise you time will prove the infatada and 9/11 were total disasters for radical islam. The sane world considers them and their supporters vile. The current 4 to 1 ratio in favor of Israel will last for generations. Liberals like Joe will weep a river on your behalf. The rest of us will worship General David Petraeus for his successes in defeating you. Barak Obama on his best day was never as popular as Petraeus. Osama Bin Laden will go down as one of histories greatest fools. No group has suffered more as a result of 9/11 than muslims.

I’m not gong to get into the childish, pointless and impossible to solve question of who started what.
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But you do just that when Palestinians act first, then you give Israel carte blanche to inflict all sorts of devastation. Admit it, rdw, you are much, much, much more comfortable with Israeli attacks, no matter who struck first, than you are with Palestinian attacks. You’ve predetermined that Israel is the side you wish to see triumphant and that is all that matters to you.
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But when Israel takes action they strive to avoid innocents.
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1000 killed in Gaza during 2009′s Operation Cast Lead and 1300 killed in Lebanon in the summer of 2006, not to mention thousands and thousands injured. That is your idea of striving to avoid innocents? Then what accounts for UN installations being hit? Hospitals? Schools? TV crews? Ambulances? White phosphorous? Come on, rdw, don’t be dense.
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Liberals will navel gaze wondering whey they did wrong. Conservatives go about figuring out who to kill as many of them as possible in as short a time as possible with as minimal risk as possible.
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This has nothing to do with political philosophy. Some of Israel’s most staunch supporters are Democratic members of Congress. Whereas harsh critics of Israel include Sen. Lugar, former Sen. Chuck Hagel, former Congressman Paul Findley, former Sec. of State Colin Powell, and even former President George H. W. Bush before he was arm-twisted by Congress to repent.
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The current 4 to 1 ratio in favor of Israel will last for generations.
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That 4:1 display of ignorance is, thankfully, isolated to America. The world has already broke free from the propaganda machine and is staunchly opposed to Israel’s illegal occupation of Palestine. US media is still blatantly pro-Israel, yet the internet is making great strides to reduce this bias. Time is not Israel’s friend. As information is disseminated, truthful information for one of the first times in Israel’s history, and we get further and further from the tragic Holocaust events, people are going to be less and less inclined to give Israel a free pass. She will suffer the same isolating fate as other pariah states, such as N. Korea.
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Feel free to hit the ‘reply’ button!

The next move is for the Palestinian leadership to say openly to their own people that they want a two-state solution with a permanent Israel (with full diplomatice recognition) and permanent Palestine living side-by-side in permanent peace. They should do this from the podium of their own legislative assembly, and broadcast it to the Palestinian people.
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As long as the Palestinian leaders refuse to acknowledge the permanent existence of Israel to their own Palestinian people, and stop all of the anti-Israel garbage they publish in their schoolbooks and show on their TV stations (even inviting children to martyr themselves as suicide bombers), the Israelis owe the Palestinians nothing more.

That 4:1 display of ignorance is, thankfully, isolated to America.

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Well who else matters? That’s not being snarky. ON what basis does Europe or anyone else tell America or Israel what to do? I can’t imagine any set of circumstances whereby I’d ask a European for advice.

Whereas harsh critics of Israel include Sen. Lugar, former Sen. Chuck Hagel, former Congressman Paul Findley, former Sec. of State Colin Powell, and even former President George H. W. Bush before he was arm-twisted by Congress to repent.

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You are confusing party with ideology. None of these men are conservatives. Many of GHWBs positions were correct and he had the support of conservatives but in a post-infatada and 9/11 world the Palestinians must renounce terrorism or we will give the jews every tool we have so they can defend themselves.

Admit it, rdw, you are much, much, much more comfortable with Israeli attacks, no matter who struck first, than you are with Palestinian attacks.

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Absolutely, positively true. One image of a Palestinian terrorist getting on an Israeli school bus is enough for me. As a western democracy there is no question I trust Israel 1st. And to that I trust all non-islamic nations before all islamic nations. Only Islam celebrates the murder of children and only Islam used children to murder.

You’ve predetermined that Israel is the side you wish to see triumphant and that is all that matters to you.

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I think you really have no idea of just how destructive 9/11 has been to Islam within the rest of the world. As long as you support terrorism, or defend it in any way, you will be reviled by sane people.

I think I am pretty centrist when it comes to this conflict and I think as most do the deal Clinton offered was fair. Arafat passed. That was bad enough. Then he started slaughtering innocents. He’s a maggot to most Americans. It is 4 to1 and it will stay 4 to 1 until you renounce terrorism. Time is not on your side. You lost so much in that infadata. At some point economic reality will set in. You will stand outside Israel and watch as they grow prosperous and increasingly more powerful. It’s going to remain an open question longer if Hamas kills Fatah or Fatah kills Hamas but both can’t co-exist.

I think I am pretty centrist when it comes to this conflict

No, you are without a doubt far-right, pro-Israel in this.

Here’s your problem. I am pro-Israel. That has nothing to do with being far right. This is America. I am mainstream

One image of a Palestinian terrorist getting on an Israeli school bus is enough for me.
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What about images such as these?
http://whitewraithe.wordpress.com/i-want-to-tell-the-world-a-photo-essay-of-palestinian-oppression/
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1106542/Gazas-darkest-day-40-die-Israel-bombs-safe-haven-UN-school.html
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What is it about the 124 Israeli children that have been murdered by Palestinians since 2000 that outweighs the 1,452 Palestinian children murdered by Israeli forces in this same period (http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/children.html)? Why are you more moved by images of Israeli suffering, which is negligible in comparison to Palestinian suffering?

I messed up the last link…

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/children.html

I think it’s how they were murdered. IN the case of the Palestinian atrocities we had suicide bombers walk on a bus and get as close to little jewish girls and blow them up. In the case of Palestinians what happens is their terrorists use their children as bullet proof vests. Palestrinians intentionally put their kids in harms way.

The word for the kind of “kndnesses” that Israel administers is called “fragging”.
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Old time Doom ][ players should recognize it, and the mentality behind it would best be described as:
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“clinical”

“Minds are made up.”
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Minds? Are you sure you know what you’re talking about when you mention minds?!?!
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To consider:
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The consequences of not making peace…

In the case of Palestinians what happens is their terrorists use their children as bullet proof vests.
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And you know this how? Because there have been reports of this? Does that translate into it being ubiquitous? No. In actuality, it’s just a fabricated fairy-tale to help you and other Zionists sleep better at night. I cannot even imagine a mind that would try to legitimize the killing of 1400 children by an overwhelmingly superior military power by saying they were all simply used as shields by their parents. That people like you exist is reason enough for me to give up on mankind.

The consequences of not making peace…

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Consequences for who? The problem liberals have with Israel isn’t that they are doing poorly but that they are doing well. They were outraged by the fence understanding it would end suicide bombing and make the jews safer and stronger. They understand as Reagan buried socialism economically so to can Israel sustain and flourish in the middle east.

The fact is Israel under Sharon and now Netanyahu has followed the Reagan model of deregulating to open up the economy and focused on a strong defense to provide the security needed to support a strong economy which in turn allows more investment in defense. It’s a neat little cycle whereby Israel’s booming defense industry has as clients other nations threatened by Islam properly motivated to buy Israeli expertise.

The fact of the matter is the model for this extended conflict is the USA-USSR. Islam is by definition backwards and repressive. The West is open and innovative. While Islam is capable of the most vile butchery they’ll never compete with the West in terms of efficient lethality. Just consider Obama’s drone wolfpacks. He has camera’s so powerful he can find and identify a cockroach crossing a desert. He has missles so accurate he can kill it from 10,000 miles away without putting a soldier within 100 miles of the action. How many terrorists in Pakistan have laid down their weary heads to rest never to wake up again? It might not be the fastest process but it is unrelenting.

You killed 3,000 on 9/11. I have no idea who many we’ve killed in response but it’s got to be over 100,000 and it’s far from over. Worst is more muslims have been killed by other muslims than by Americans or other westerners.

The problem liberals have with Israel isn’t that they are doing poorly but that they are doing well. They were outraged by the fence understanding it would end suicide bombing and make the jews safer and stronger.
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Holy Hell! That’s absurd. First of all, liberals have no greater animosity towards Israel than conservatives. Political ideology doesn’t posit any leanings on this issue, no ideology, save for Zionism, speaks to conflict between Israelis and Palestinians. If you disagree, please explain what it is about the conservative philosophy that would position us as more supportive of Israel?
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Secondly, are you really suggesting that people’s opposition to Israel, and especially its policies such as the separation wall, is that it protects Jews? So, basically the same old canard that opposing illegal, immoral, and unjust polices of the Israeli government translates into prejudices against Jews. Yea. Sure.
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You killed 3,000 on 9/11. I have no idea who many we’ve killed in response but it’s got to be over 100,000 and it’s far from over.
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Who the hell do you think you’re talking with, members of Al-Qaeda? Because myself and 53_3 and many, many others strongly condemn Israel’s behavior, we must be radical Islamists? What the f*ck is this “you” and “us” bullsh*t? I’m a US citizen, born and raised, of Italian ethnicity. Who the f*ck are you, you pompous imbecile?

“You killed 3,000 on 9/11″
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RDW, what is wrong with you? Are you so full of hate and ignorance that you see people who disagree with you as terrorists? And you consider yourself a main street American? You are a hypocrite. In fact I don’t see the difference between you, as bigoted and as ignorant you are, and the terrorists. Ideologically speaking, it seems you shared the wet nurse with your fellow extremists on the other side of the world.

I strongly denounce Israel and its policies in the Middle East and consider it a terrorist state, as do a majority of the world’s people. And for you information, as inconvenient as it may be for you, I am an Indian American (christian) soldier who just got back from serving in Afghanistan (3rd tour). You should be ashamed of yourself. The ignorance you projected here is a disgrace to mankind. You belong in the stone age my friend. Anyhow, I do feel sorry for you.