What Afghans Are Thinking

55% of interviewees believe that the international community is in Afghanistan for its own benefit, to destroy or occupy the country, or to destroy Islam.
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Hmmm…. maybe they have a better handle on the situation than we think.
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“We need to fight them over there so we don’t have to fight them over here.”
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“We are at war with Islam.”
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“The middle East has some huge oil reserves, enough to solve our energy needs for [fill in the blank] years.”
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Which of the above DOESN’T serve to reinforce the views those Afghans seem to hold?

Well to be fair, I don’t know why we’re there anymore either.

Silly me, I thought we were in Afghanistan to bring the perpetrators of 9/11 to justice.

I’m going to go out on a limb and say that anyone who doesn’t know about 9/11 (a) didn’t do it and (b) doesn’t give a sh-t about Al Qaeda’s ambitions.

But that is just me.

“We need to fight them over there so we don’t have to fight them over here.”
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I thought this was part of the explanation President Bush gave for why the Iraq War was going south. He landed on the argument that Iraq became the rally point for global jihadists, giving us a place to fight then instead of — I guess (given the rhetoric we hear) — on the streets of Topeka, Kansas. So, I’m not sure this actually supports the Afghan thinking — it just displays flawed thinking on the part of functionaries in the previous Administration.

Obama has been thoroughly punked.

Look, Bush blew it in Afghanistan. He sent in too few troops. He relied too heavily on untrustworthy and less skilled Nothern Alliance forces. And then, he negligently shifted key resources to Iraq.

But all this took place 7-9 years ago. The idea that Barack Obama can undue the failures of 2001-2002 is lunacy. You can’t refight old wars.

What is next? Sending troops into Beirut to avenge the barracks bombing? Refight Vietnam? Carpetbomb Little Bighorn monument?

Pay reparations for slavery, re-distribute wealth, make amends for colonialism? I see your point.

Let me preface this by saying I’m not advocating for longstanding, open-ended engagements. But I do have to ask one question: What good have ever done exiting a conflict? And I say that not because I want to see American troops fighting endless wars, but because I think we should have a serious discussion on what happens when we leave a place that still is unstable and what that means for our national security and the internal security of the place(s) we abandon.
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Let’s start with Vietnam. We pull ground forces out in 1973, Saigon falls in 1975 and the Vietnamese proceed to fight a string of wars with Cambodia and China over the next 20 years. And that’s before we even begin talking about the killing fields of Kampuchea.
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Let’s look at Lebanon. We abandon ship in 1983 and Hezbollah spends the rest of the decade keeping the country unstable and kidnapping Westerners. That’s not to mention that Israel proceeding apace doing nasty things in the southern part of the country.
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Let’s look at Somalia. We exit stage right in 1993 and the place is still a hellhole. Of course, now it’s one that plays hosts to pirates who have a penchant for using speed boats to hijack freighters and passenger boats. And that’s not to mention the role many intelligence services believe it plays in harboring international terrorists.
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Now, you could argue this shows we should pick our conflicts a lot better — and I agree 100%; Vietnam and Iraq are a prime example of this. But I’m not sure that you can ascribe that to Afghanistan; despite the man-on-the-stree survey, Mullah Omar was a client of Al Qaeda and we needed to respond to 9/11. And now that we’re there, I don’t think we can just leave; we played that game in the 1990s after the defeat of the Soviets and it didn’t get us anywhere.
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We need a good way of leaving conflicts, but I’m just not sure what that is when the historical understanding of “victory” (capturing the enemy capital or forcing the enemy to sue for peace) is possible. Once again, this isn’t a call for endless war — it’s a question about how do we responsibly end our engagement in the wars we fight.

I’ll wait for Michael’s response…

Thanks for posting this, Michael.

What Afghans Are Thinking

“The US is bringing in tanks? We haven’t seen a tank since the Russians left.”

Good job, melty. None of those are wars or military actions.
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The second one isn’t even relevant to the other two things you mentioned, unless you’re saying that the rich have been doing wrong unto others for years. Is that what you’re saying?

The reasons of a minority of people who believe in particular actions for Afghanistan do not reflect the positions of the whole. There was a legitimate consensus for going into Afghanistan due to the national security risks it posed. There was a legitimate global consensus and NATO consensus of going in there for the same reason. My nation (Canada) is certainly not participating in its first war since Korea to prop up American oil companies or for that oil pipeline or to engage Islam regardless of the objectives of Cheney and Rumsfeld and their cohorts.

Apologies for the typos in my previous post — typing fast while trying to do other things at work.

This should read:

“But I do have to ask one question: What good have we ever done exiting a conflict?”

And this should read:

“That’s not to mention Israel proceeding apace doing nasty things in the southern part of the country.”

And this should read:

“Of course, now it’s one that plays host to pirates who have a penchant for using speed boats to hijack freighters and passenger boats.”

And this should read:

“But I’m not sure that you can ascribe that to Afghanistan; despite the man-on-the-street survey, Mullah Omar was a client of Al Qaeda and we needed to respond to 9/11.

And this should read:

“We need a good way of leaving conflicts, but I’m just not sure what that is when the historical understanding of “victory” (capturing the enemy capital or forcing the enemy to sue for peace) isn’t possible.”

One of these days I’ll learn to proofread before hitting submit (or Time could provide an editing tool for posts like other sites).

Listen, teabagger, I’m not asking you to pay reparations.
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All I ask is that you take 5 seconds out of your life to be thankful that you were born, as a White American male, into a class that has held disproportionate power in this country, if not the entire world, for 200+ years.
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Neither you nor your ancesters were denied citizenship, the right to own property, access to education, fair justice in the courts, and equal treatment in business dealings. You have benefited tremendously from the privileges to which you were born.
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Now, do I want you to pay reparations? No. I don’t.
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But I what I do want is for you to shut your f—ing mouth and stop whining like a baby that the blackies iz comin’ to take your moneez! Let me know if you can handle that.

Well, you could make the argument on colonialism. After all, Americans went to war and killed the Buffalo with the express intent of starving the natives. That said, none of those are conducting a war to correct a prior wrong. It might be reasonable to, say, invest money into Beirut and Vietnam to help improve conditions there in part to ensure there is less animosity towards America and in part to ensure that their upcoming generations have a future and don’t have animosity just looking for a target to blame – y’know, like the US.

“…Afghans in two crucial southern provinces are almost completely unaware of the September 11 attacks on the United States and don’t know they precipitated the foreign intervention now in its 10th year…”
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If a foreign occupying army were shooting Hellfire missiles into my neighborhood for the 10th straight year, I’d just want to know they thought had a good reason.

“Afghans in two crucial southern provinces are almost completely unaware of the September 11 attacks”

How “aware” of them are you?

http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2010/11/16/critical-mass/

@koabd: This is some really thoughtful writing, thank you for it. I have to always say when I wade into something this deep that I don’t know anything about military strategy at all. So, there’s that to consider.

To me examples like Somalia tell us more about Somalia than our decision to stay or leave. Somalia wasn’t a paradise while we were there, right? Neither is Afghanistan. I was struck a few months ago when Time ran it’s “What If We Leave” story that all of the horrible things the author said would happened if we left were happening anyway. So yes, things can look really bad after we leave. But that doesn’t mean that we’re capable of solving problems by staying. I don’t think I have to convince you of that.

You brought up Viet Nam and of course everything you say about it is true. But there’s a longer story there. Vietnam is now one of our trading partners and is a legitimate player in the global economy. So while I wouldn’t say “in the long run things worked out,” I would say that all of Asia didn’t fall to communism and the Soviets didn’t run roughshod over the world after we showed weakness by leaving, either.

Now you can point to Korea, a place we never left and at least say “Look, stability!” So there are ways for us to stay and to force a detente in a conflict. But it’s been a long, long time. Are we really ready, financially and politically for another type of commitment. This is what John McCain meant when he said he wouldn’t mind seeing American troops in Iraq 100 years from now. But Americans do mind and that has to be considered as well. One thing about using a military responsibly in a democracy is that it had darned better be used in accordance with the will of that democracies people. Our will has been sapped in Afghanistan and I think we have to deal with that as an important practical and moral fact.

We never had to occupy Japan, though we did administer it in its postwar years. We did occupy part of Germany, along with the other allies, as Graham Greene made such good sport of. I’d like to say we left both honorably, though please realize I mean no moral slight to our use of the atom bomb in the Pacific. We did help to rebuild both countries and the Marshall Plan had an admirable “no strings attached” ethos that is largely responsible for the vibrant global economy that exists these many decades later.

When do you leave? When you are not doing good. When you cannot make things better. When you are not sure you’re not making things worse. When you no longer have the heart to fight. How do you leave? In an orderly fashion. What do you do next? Extend a hand to rebuild where and when it is practical to do so.

Is it dangerous to leave the world full of failed states that could become havens for international criminals and terrorists? Yes. It is. But there will always be failed states and outlaw frontiers and we can’t occupy them all so we might as well realize that the world will be a dangerous place whether or not we occupy one country or another.

Thanks for encouraging me to think more about this.

Woman Told To Remove Prosthetic Breast by TSA

http://conservativeblogscentral.blogspot.com/2010/11/woman-told-to-remove-prosthetic-breast.html

5.3, my, my. Have many anger issues? I thought you all went to the liberals school of tolerance. Then I read your hateful speech and I see nothing but class envy, racial hatred, and assumptions about my class and privilege. Could you be more ignorant?
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My ancestors were never involved in any of the things you mentioned. And if someone’s ancestors were, there is no way to make ammends for another’s sins. For example: your children are not responsible for the ignorance that you spew. I treat people with respect and see them all equal, and I don’t categorize by skin color.

500 words:
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Glanced at photo. This popped into my head:
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‘scuse me, but what, exactly, is wrong with paying reparations, 150 years late, to the decedents of the people that were enslaved for 250 years in the US?

My ancestors were never involved in any of the things you mentioned. And if someone’s ancestors were, there is no way to make ammends for another’s sins.
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That’s not what square1 said. He said — pretty plainly — the following:
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Neither you nor your ancesters were denied citizenship, the right to own property, access to education, fair justice in the courts, and equal treatment in business dealings.
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Put even more simply — being white has never been an inhibitor to personal progress in the United States of America. To put a fine point on this, he concluded with the following:
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You have benefited tremendously from the privileges to which you were born.
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In other words, to quote Chris Rock, “There isn’t a white guy in this room that would trade places with me — and I’m RICH!”
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He never actually asked you to make amends for this (a tactic which is a logical fallacy know as “arguing a straw man”). And he actually said as much:
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Now, do I want you to pay reparations? No. I don’t.
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The only thing he asked you to do was to stop aruging another straw man — that those lazy minorities, always whining about their raw deal, stop looking for a come-up out of your wallet. It’s not true statistically (whites actually dominate the welfare rolls) and it only serves to create fear of “the other.”
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And as one concluding point, the Civil Rights Act was passed in 1964, the Boston Bussing Crisis occurred in 1974 and the Charleston, MS, high school prom was finally desegregated in 2009 — this stuff isn’t ancient history.
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Thanks for taking the time to reply, Michael. Your opening statement struck me, so I wanted to comment, specifically this quotation:
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To me examples like Somalia tell us more about Somalia than our decision to stay or leave. Somalia wasn’t a paradise while we were there, right?
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I’m not sure this is the right argument. As Mark Bowden outlined in his history of our Somalia involvement, Black Hawk Down, things didn’t have to end up that way. One of the catalytic events to the disaster in the Bakara Market was a US helicopter strike on a meeting of Somali elders who were reportedly discussing how to better cooperate with UN forces. In other words, we were on the verge of a breakthrough moment, but we screwed that up by shooting the wrong Somalis (US commanders moved on intelligence that warlord Mohammed Farah Aidid was at that meeting).
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And that’s the place from which my question arises: in our haste to do the politically expedient thing here, we miss the opportunity to do the strategically — and morally — correct thing. Would Somalia be the disaster (both for its people and for those traveling the Indian Ocean) it is today if we hadn’t killed those elders and followed that up by bailing out on the country at the site of a US airman being dragged through the streets of Mogadishu?
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Your point is taken about knowing when to get out — particularly the notes about when you’ve lost the capacity to credibly help. But my question is, have we ever tried to really help in Afghanistan? And what would the net be if we really did? Again, I’m not asking this because I want endless war or that I believe the US has the money or the talent to be the world’s police man, but I think that we can draw direct lines from slipshod decisions to bugout to foreign policy messes.
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I don’t know, but for me, the longview is never taken in these matters, and that’s what bothers me.

@koabd: I agree with you about more long term do good thinking. I worry that it’s too complex and we’re bound to mess up, despite intentions. But also that the intentions aren’t there and if they aren’t the best thing is to support an orderly withdrawal. If what you’re saying is possible, I wish we’d done it years ago. We’re coming up on a decade now. I think it’s too far gone.

Arthur Silber:

Brzesinski identifies “American primacy” and the perpetuation of American hegemony as the primary goals of American foreign policy. As I have discussed in detail, American global hegemony has been the purpose of American policy for over a hundred years…. And Obama has long made clear beyond all question that this is the goal he fully shares.

I (exasperatedly) note that I analyzed this overwhelmingly significant aspect of Obama’s belief system in May 2007, in “Songs of Death.” As I said about Obama’s paean to American exceptionalism and America’s “right” to rule the world: “The ahistorical arrogance of this is breathtaking (or nauseating, take your pick). Obama’s hegemonic ambitions are noteworthy in their scale: ‘the American moment’ is to extend for ‘this new century.’” I said a lot more in the full essay. Anyone who followed politics to any measurable degree and who did not understand this about Obama long before the 2008 election did not want to understand it. Obama is the horrifyingly eager embodiment of American Empire. By definition, Empire is a bloody, barbaric, murderous, endlessly cruel business. That is the business Obama wanted to run, and now he does.

Maybe if the traditional media had remembered to ask for an exit strategy instead of cheering on occupation, we wouldn’t be here.

forgotten-everything you said may be true but if the people in the country don’t know why we are there, none of it really matters. You are talking about a country with no electricity outside major cities, no central government to speak of, no newspapers except in Kabul, and their only real allegiance is to their tribe. The educational level is minimal and most couldn’t find the US on a globe. Why wouldn’t they be suspect.

I remember from my Red Cross Disaster training that when you open a shelter, the first thing on your mind should be on what needs to be done to be able to close it.

There were some of us complaining that there wasn’t a plan of what we were going to do when all the cheer-leading was going on and, of course, we were called traitors.

There is a reason why this area is called the graveyard of nations. If Bush had done his job and instituted an income tax surcharge to pay for his wars, we would have been out in 6 months. President Cheney would have made sure of it.

artraveler, I point you to this particular statement:
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“Hmmm…. maybe they have a better handle on the situation than we think.”
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I do not dispute any of the points you make. However, I take serious issue with afguy’s implication that their belief that we (as in the NATO coalition) are in there for “[our] own benefit, to occupy the Middle East or to destroy Islam” is accurate because a handful of neocons claim it to be true.

artraveler: I know many of us were asking the question. I was practically screaming if at my TV at the time. I remember when we got involved in the Balkan war and Somalia, that how we got out was the big question. I guess the Iraq war was just too inticing to the traditional media. And, you are so right about the tax to pay for it. I remember when war was considered a “bread or butter issue”. Again, few questions from the traditional media.

The American defence industry has spent decades figuring out how to keep small wars going through the development cycle of the next weapon system. The Afghan theatre will shut down when the testing is complete, not before.

In a nutshell, the US has failed miserably to win the heart and mind of most Afghans.

Very sad yet absolutely true. (btt1943)

And with the fear rampant in this country–as evidenced by the new TSA “security measures”, it is clear that all the fighting is for naught. Al Qeada has won the war on terror.

5.7, Want to show me where I said, — “that those lazy minorities, always whining about their raw deal, stop looking for a come-up out of your wallet.”
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You are as ignorant as Square1.
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Those that want reparations and social justice are socialists, if not communists. The perpetrators and the victims of slavery are dead. You cannot procure justice for victims of slavery 150 years later by claiming that by the circumstances of your race you owe members of another race.
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It would be like imprisoning a Great Great Grandson for a murder that his long dead relative committed.
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“You have benefited tremendously from the privileges to which you were born.”

Really? I benefited tremendously? And you know that how? That is an ignorant statement based on a bigoted assumption that all whites are privileged by the color of they skin. It comes from the same place where someone says, “all blacks…”
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“Now, do I want you to pay reparations? No. I don’t.”
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Just the fact that you consider it, says that you believe that you should judge whether some white guy should pay or not based on race.
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“But I what I do want is for you to shut your f—ing mouth and stop whining like a baby that the blackies iz comin’ to take your moneez! Let me know if you can handle that.”
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I don’t even know where this came from. It comes from you, not me.

I don’t even know where this came from.
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It comes from the fact that the only people we ever hear complaining about reparations are fat white guys who are outraged at the thought that their schedule of driving around oversized trucks and playing golf and stuffing their f–king gobs with fast food might be interrupted some day because the darkies keep asking for jobs and houses.

I thought we solved that problem when President Bush hired a Madison Avenue media expert to tell the world how nice & kind & good America is,
Then we…

Uh, never mind.

That was uncharitable of me. Skinny white douchebags who drive BMWs and wear polo shirts and make-believe pray to Jesus also hate it when brown skinned people start piping up.

Ok, so you all hate white people. Thanks for your racist comments.
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You are only proving my point. You are reverse racists.

This is not at all surprising. Most of the population are illerate. In actuality, Afghanistan is really not a country but an area run by war and drug lords. There is no effective central government with authority.
I lived in Baghdad when the vast majority of the population was illerate. Not only did it affect their understanding of events, they could not learn simple tasks that five year olds could easily handle here in the US.
This reinforces my opinion that we should get out now. We are not going to change or modernize that area. It would take generations. First, you would have to defeat the Taliban who are against education. No small feat. After that, you would have to create an educational and healthcare system. You would have to create jobs. Summed up: change the whole infrastructure and culture of the area.

well now they know about it.

Northern Mexico actually seems more chaotic, with more deaths over the last few years, and right on our border. But we’ll just bury that story because:
1. It only threatens the south central USA, and that’s just flyover-meth-lab-country that nobody who matters cares about and the MSM will never actually visit, only generalize about macho cowboys and holy Baptist “real Americans,” so who cares.
2. We wouldn’t want to admit that, not only can’t the expensive U.S. armed forces defeat cave dwellers with homemade weapons halfway around the world, they also wouldn’t be able to defeat the Zetas because too many actual humans would be put on the line, and robot drones won’t do it. People from the Northeast and California are much too precious to be killed in battle and you’ve run out of losers from Oklahoma and Pennsyltucky to die for Bear Stearns (and similar) aristocrats, along with Latin Americans seeking U.S. citizenship, so who’s left to die for the failing, pawned-out empire?
3. The same bustards who profit from their colonial exploitation of heartland America also benefit from laundering money etc. for Mexican drug lords.
Also, the drug trade provides a wonderful opportunity for locking up blacks and “Messicans” for sentences that exceed those dealt out to murderers. This (1) empowers a shadow economy for the CIA to exploit, (2) enables the continued oppression of despised minorities and (3) enables profits for the private prison-industrial complex.
Well done, America! More profits to the only people who matter, more misery for us, the victims. What’s your next trick?

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It comes from the fact that the only people we ever hear complaining about reparations are fat white guys who are outraged at the thought that their schedule of driving around oversized trucks and playing golf and stuffing their f–king gobs with fast food might be interrupted some day because the darkies keep asking for jobs and houses…
That was uncharitable of me. Skinny white douchebags who drive BMWs and wear polo shirts and make-believe pray to Jesus also hate it when brown skinned people start piping up.
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The idea of reparations at this point in time is absurd, and you don’t have to be fat and lazy or skinny and rich to grasp that, Cliff. The idea of reparations is also one that has never been realistically entertained, that is why few people care enough to complain about it. But, were the option on the table, you would see a lot more hostility to the idea from, say, people like me, whose family arrived in this country in the 1910′s and was treated like dogsh!t.

Exiled – my point wasn’t about whether reparations themselves are a good idea.
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My point is that literally the only time I ever hear the word is when white people are complaining that the government might take their money.

“But I what I do want is for you to shut your f—ing mouth and stop whining like a baby that the blackies iz comin’ to take your moneez! Let me know if you can handle that.”

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Do you mean like this?
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But of course you can see how you actually came across.

You are as ignorant as Square1.
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To borrow a line from Inigo Montoya, I don’t think this work (ignorant) means what you think it means. True ignorance is embodied in statements like this:
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Those that want reparations and social justice are socialists, if not communists.
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Why, you ask? Because it shows a lack of understanding of what the following terms mean: “social justice,” “socialists” and “communists.” But that’s not surprising when I consider the source — you argue straw men, you change the subject and you spend most of your time hurling insults instead of making actual counterpoints.
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As for your initial question — “Want to show me where I said, — ‘that those lazy minorities, always whining about their raw deal, stop looking for a come-up out of your wallet’” — let’s go back to the first comment you made in this string:
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Pay reparations for slavery, re-distribute wealth, make amends for colonialism? I see your point.
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square1, annoyed by President Obama doubling-down on Afghanistan (in a half-hearted manner, mind you), asks if POTUS is going to do anything else ridiculous (in his estimation) by trotting out a string of preposterous options. You follow that up with the noise quoted above.
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Now, it’s amazing that you and your ilk lay on the doorstep of the President (who is partially African-American) a wish-list of things you ascribe to a caricature of a black radical: compensation for slavery, entitlements for the poor (in earlier times, less by President Reagan with straw men like “Welfare Queens”) and having European powers apologize for — you know — coming uninvited to foreign lands and setting up shop. Mind you, the President has not actually agitated for the first and third points, but that doesn’t matter, right? As right-wing legend Newt Gingrich points out, the portion of his DNA that came from a Lao tribesman directs President Obama’s actions — trumping the portion of him made up of a white woman of mixed European extraction and cancelling out the fact that he was not raised by a single American black or African person.
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Then, of course, going as far back as the election, your ilk has been pointing to Rev. Jeremiah Wright, USMC, as proof that President Obama is a black radical who is running the nation based on black liberation theology. Nevermind that none of his policies have shown this — he’s a black guy who went to a black church whose preacher was extremely critical of a country he served faithfully in the early 1960s.
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So, liberalmeltdown (or should I say conservativecrockofsh*t), you may not have used the precise words that square1 or I did, but your dog whistle argument is clear because it’s one that’s been made against this “un-American” President since before he was inagurated. It’s disingenuous to say that isn’t where you were going and it’s a stupid argument based on the way President Obama has actually attempted to govern. Then again, as Forrester Gump’s mama was fond of saying, “Stupid is as stupid does.”

Mr Crowley, this is not startling in the least. Specifically because we are not in Afghanistan because of the attacks on Sept 11th. Our response to the attacks happened 10 years ago– we sent in Marines to disrupt al Qaeda camps and end their ability to plan and execute future attacks. This goal was accomplished in short order. We culd have and should have left soon after.
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We are there now to build a network of forward bases in order to police the region. Or, as the PNAC put it, a “core mission” for the US military is to “perform the ‘constabulary’ duties associated with shaping the security environment in
critical regions” (link, pg 11). They theorize that with these bases, over the next 50-80 years we will eradicate terrorism from the region making it safe for capitalism- and the world will come to appreciate benevolent US might.
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The Afghanis have no reason to believe that we are fighting al Qaeda as this group are foreign nationals who have been scattered, wield no influence in their country and have no ability to attack anyone. Further, Afghanis did not collaborate with al Qaeda (including the Taliban) or help plan the attacks.

If what you’re saying is possible, I wish we’d done it years ago. We’re coming up on a decade now. I think it’s too far gone.
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Michael, I understand your concerns and I share them. But as I’ve said, I’m nagged by the fact that the US has done this several times since the Korean War truce and it has always had deleterious effects on our national prestige and security, as well as the lives and wellbeings of the folks we leave behind in those countries.
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The Time cover story about what happens in Afghanistan if we leave makes the wrong argument (for Americans, that is). It’s what happens to us if we let the Taliban ride back into Kabul, as they did in the mid-1990s? Does that destabilze Pakistan, putting the bomb in the hands of extremists? Does this force Iran to take action against Afghanistan to shore up its southern border? Does this exacerbate tentions between the Arab/Sunni governments of most of the Middle East and Persian/Shiite government of Iran? And does this ultimately create an even more toxic brew from which something more vile than 9/11 can arise?
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I know those are a bunch of worse-case scenarios, but given the history of this region — and the fact that we’re not getting off petroleum overnight, meaning we’re going to have interests there for the foreseeable future — I’m just very concerned about an unstable country in the middle of it all.
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So, to your point — is it too late? I don’t know, maybe it is. But I think President Obama needs to try because I don’t think we can afford to be short-sighted about what this bad patch of earth means to the country and the world.

It’s always been true that a properly functioning democracy requires a properly informed electorate. It’s utterly unsurprising that we would heve difficulty installing a properly functioning democracy in a place like Afghanistan.

What’s more disturbing is the effort being spent dismantling our properly functioning democracy here at home!

I think religion, both theirs and ours (not mine, just “ours” as in USA), fits in here for some comment. To inject my own prejudice, ours is no better than theirs and both are rotten and evil to the core. Our so called democracy has become a terrorist state, every bit as evil as theirs. The Vatican is still standing, and presides over a majority of our electorate, so evil can prevail.

liberalmeltdown: Slavery did not end with the Emancipation Proclamation. There were years of Jim Crow laws and sharecropping that kept African Americans in a feudal state.
I am reading a book called “The Warmth of Other Suns”. It is a study of the Great Migration of African Americans to the north and west over 55 years.
They were escaping the horrible known into the unknown.
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http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/05/books/review/Oshinsky-t.html
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You are probably not as old as me, but I remember lynchings, I remember little girls being blown up, I remember segregated schools, buses, trains, hotels, water fountains, side walks, restaurants, stores. I remember seeing the fear on the faces of those participating in sit-ins and marches.
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This is not ancient history. It requires more than I am sorry but I had nothing to do with it.
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Also, I have lived next to Native American reservations and have seen close up where we drove them in our genocide and the consequences that remain today. That requires more than I am sorry but I had nothing to do with it.

Mark Twain on counterinsurgency, colonialism, imperialism, and quagmires:
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http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/2010/11/mark-twain-on-counterinsurgenc/
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“I’m sure I wish I could see we are getting out of it, and all it means to us as a nation.”

But of course you can see how you actually came across.
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Oh, I was being a jackass about it, absolutely.

apr2563 – what tribes have you lived next to?
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I’ve been through the Navajo reservation a fair amount and it’s one of the most depressing places I’ve seen.
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Hopi and Zuni lands seem to be a little bit better.

Cliff, I have lived next to the Puyallup, Yakima, Collville, and Shoalwater Reservations. It is pretty common in Washington State to live next to reservations. Some, like the Yakimas, have been more successful. Of course, though sometimes corrupt, casinos have helped many tribes survive.
When I lived by part of the Shoalwater Reservation in Tokeland, Washington ( what was historically a summer fishing encampment rather than a reservation), there was a great deal of assimilation that had happened. Many of my neighbors off the reservation were part Native American.
There still exists much poverty, lack of medical care, and the everlasting curse of alcoholism.
I worked in a tavern in Eastern Washington that had a sign posted and hitching post up until the 50s (before I worked there) that stated tie up your horses, dogs, and Indians before entering.
My daughter spent a few weeks with the Hopi Tribe in Arizona a number of years ago. She was saddened by their poverty.

Cliff: Sorry, my aim was off. See my response at 2.8.
I think the Hopi are doing better because of their mineral resources. It has caused lots of strife with the Navajos.
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Fox Propaganda Network made an issue over President Obama’s new children’s book, “Of Thee I Sing” because one of the 13 Americans he honored was Sitting Bull. They had a headline on their web site accusing him of extolling a Native American who killed a US General. They were referring to Custer who was in the middle of committing genocide. And the leader of battle of the Little Bighorn was Crazy Horse. Facts aren’t FPNs strong point.
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http://www.aolnews.com/politics/article/fox-headline-on-obama-kids-book-ignites-sitting-bull-controvers/19720203
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And some here claim that intolerance no longer exists.

Sorry, this is in response to Cliff at 5.19.

Pretty OT but…
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“You are probably not as old as me”
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apr, you have referenced your age before but other than for using it as you did here -” I remember little girls being blown up”- there is nothing about how you write or think that makes me think of you as “older”.
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I mean that as a compliment.
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My father has had some health issues lately and visiting with him and his co-recoverers really makes me think about how different people age different ways.

I’ve got a friend who comes from Yakima, so he’s probably familiar with all the tribes you mentioned. I don’t think he’s got a high opinion of any of them, which I’m guessing is usual for people who live around reservations.

The Vatican is still standing, and presides over a majority of our electorate, so evil can prevail.
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Anyone who thinks that the Vatican is a force of evil is a lost cause as a human being. One so jaded, cynical, and delusional about the word is no better than the lunatics overturning rocks in search of Communists. You need to have some arbitrary, and ultimately fantastical, worldly nemesis to blame all our turmoil on and give you a focal point to toss your intellectual feces at. Go read a book. Preferably “How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization” by Thomas Woods.

The twisted logic of liberalism. It’s an amazing thing to behold.
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Now you are all mind readers, and are able to perceive a person’s life history just from gazing at a computer screen. You should run away and join the circus.

“My ancestors were never involved in any of the things you mentioned. And if someone’s ancestors were, there is no way to make ammends for another’s sins.”

hey, liberalmeltdown, me too! My ancestors came over in the 1840s and lived in the north. And one of them even fought on the side of the Union.

But that does not change the fact that my white skin has opened doors for me and given me extensive privileges that those with a different background do not benefit from.

Paul, that is one of the nicest things anyone has said to me. Enjoy your time with your father. My dad didn’t start speaking about his family history until late in life and I did not ask many questions. Wish I had.
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And, liberalmeltdown, I have no desire to read your mind. I enjoy sharing opinions and what limited knowledge I have. I assume other people who post here are sharing their points of view. That what is what the blog is about. When the unpleasant side of people’s nature becomes evident, it gives some insight into their thinking.

April et al, the only “unpleasant side” has come from the foaming at the mouth liberal knee jerk zealots, that can’t have an adult conversation on any subject without name calling and making twisted assumptions. Yes, I called some of them racists because that’s what they are. When you judge people, including yourself, based on skin color you are a racist.
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racism:
a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one’s own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
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Note the first part of the above sentence. I don’t believe that there are inherent differences, just different colors of skin. I don’t see the point of condemning a random white person for his/her skin color other than hatred. If you have another explanation, please enlighten me. But as I see it that is racism.
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You can be a self hating racist, as many here seem to be.
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Racism, is and has been a big problem in this country and around the world.
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Since the country elected Obama and he started out with about a 75% approval rating, the continued chorus from the left of “if you oppose Obama you are a racist” is old, tired, and no longer working for you.
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What also needs to change is the intolerance from the left for anyone black that is conservative. You all need to do some work on your own house, hypocrites.
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“The report also finds that “55% of interviewees believe that the international community is in Afghanistan for its own benefit, to destroy or occupy the country, or to destroy Islam.”
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Reminds me of Cool Hand Luke. Just change the names and it fits perfectly.
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What we’ve got here is failure to communicate. Some men you just can’t reach. So you get what we had here last week, which is the way Afghanistan wants it. Well, Afghanistan gets it. America and the international community don’t like it anymore than you Afghanistan.
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International Community: You gonna get used to wearin’ them chains afer a while, Afghanistan. Don’t you never stop listenin’ to them clinking. ‘Cause they gonna remind you of what I been saying. For your own good.
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Afghanistan: Wish you’d stop bein’ so good to me, IC.

‘Reverse racists’
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Ahahahahahahahaha. Yeah okay.
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“Now you are all mind readers, and are able to perceive a person’s life history just from gazing at a computer screen.”
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Gosh, you mean mind reading like ‘Those that want reparations and social justice are socialists, if not communists.’? Or ‘Just the fact that you consider it, says that you believe that you should judge whether some white guy should pay or not based on race.’?
Ooh! Or ‘So you all hate white people.’? Thanks for the stunning revelations, Miss Cleo. Do you do lottery numbers, too?
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“You all need to do some work on your own house, hypocrites.”
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He says, insinuating his own house is spotless. Hypocrite.

Thanks to lack of weekend posts, I am finally caught up. Decided there was no point in commenting on anything earlier and will see what next week brings, although I’m now in that strange position of being in such a diifferent time zone that participation is a strange experience. Appreciate again jcapan’s contibutions from the other side of the Pacific.

I’m in Cape Town many time zones away for a couple of weeks, but look forward to following the discussions.

Cheers

I see that my comment posted with the time of 10:36 am, however my time was 5:36 pm

liberal: it doesn’t take significant effort to do a small analysis on one’s thought process and come up with a general age and some notes about their history. One of the most incredible things is how quickly people figure out that someone using a new handle is the same person as the one behind some other handle. Your argumentative style suggests youth and your general positions plus the few scrapes of personal positions lends credence to the idea that you are white. I don’t think we’ve determined anything in terms of what region you come from but I could be wrong. The way you argue about certain issues and the methodology you use give us an incredibly clear picture about your personal beliefs – this is true of any debate site and we can get a reasonable assessment of just about anyone on this site. The only people it’s false for are the trolls who argue positions not because they believe them but because they just want to tick us off…..which might mean we’re dead wrong about you. Any individual can do this to any user on any site. Hell, the 4chan community has successfully located two individuals all the way to their apartment address so they could deliver revenge. Think about it.
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Yes, we could be wrong in our estimations but the question I have for you is: are we?

Please, you cannot believe everything you hear. Everyone, and everybody on the Planet has heard about 9-11 — everybody! No thinking person will or should believe that even the remote people in Afghanistan is in ignorance. Why can no one be truthful anymore is beyond me. Because of the dumbing down of America, many people think they can say anything they want, and the crowd will agree!

Can anyone even clarify what this argument is? What exactly do racism, perceived class privilege, class-based guilt, and the Trail of Tears have to do with Afghanistan?

Exiled, ok, again, in my fervor, I went a little overboard in the statement. But I doubt that the fervor would be lessened by reading a book written by an extreme right wing tea party darling, although just the title alone gives me pause and thought, wondering first how the fact that the Catholic Church was the only game in town after the fall of the Roman Empire, preceded by Greek culture. What about Islamic scholars? Are Catholic dissidents who were persecuted and killed included as contributors to the great Catholic civilization? I may have to read the book for answers, but then again, considering the source, not likely.

The man holds degrees from Harvard and Columbia. Don’t be so quick to write him off.
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More to the thesis at hand, though, Greek culture certainly built the foundation for Western civilization, followed up by the Roman Empire. But, Rome’s implosion left a void in Europe especially that threatened to jeopardize western civilization, culture, and history. Monks preserved historic texts and the Latin language. Later, the Vatican encouraged -contrary to popular misconceptions- the arts and sciences. In fact, the so-called “fathers” of modern astronomy, seismology, oceanography, and myriad other sciences, were all Catholic priests. The Church established the first universities in Europe and birthed the concepts of evidentiary trials, trial by juries, human rights and natural law. The Church fought virulently against human exploitation, slavery, and colonization long before such notions were popular. Modern economic theory of capitalism? Adam Smith you say? In actuality, the late Scholastics and the Catholic Physiocrats. This is just to scratch the surface.

Can anyone even clarify what this argument is? What exactly do racism, perceived class privilege, class-based guilt, and the Trail of Tears have to do with Afghanistan?
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This argument has nothing to do with those things. It has to do with liberalmeltdown changing the subject of the conversation with the following statement:
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Pay reparations for slavery, re-distribute wealth, make amends for colonialism? I see your point.
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It was probably a mistake to engage with him, but I know at least for me, these straw men arguments are tiresome so I responded.

The latest national survey, which dates to 2005, shows that 19 percent of Afghan households own a television, a remarkable total when considering that not only was owning a TV a crime under the Taliban but that a mere 14 percent of the population has access to public electricity. (quote from NY times)

Only 2/3rds of Afghanistan living in cities view tv shows with any regularity.

In the country side there the majority of the population lives with out electricity — guess what no television — odds are they didn’t know about 9/11 and why should they care about what happens in a country so far away?

The US is not the center of the universe — if the almost 100% of Americans who watch tv daily — the vast majority couldn’t find Afghanistan on a map or globe — even after we’ve been fighting there for almost a decade. Get real, Americans can’t get facts straight how do you think farmers living with out phones, electricity or tv are going to get the facts?

All they know if soldiers speaking a language they don’t understand, keep hanging around with guns, and occasionally bombs their homes, weddings….

You’re halfway between me and EST Ivy. I’m now (post-DST) 14 hours ahead. Really bizarre thing was when I lived in Oregon–Japan was 17 hours ahead of us. When my wife called my in laws, it was easier to think that Oregon was 7 hours ahead … the day before!?

Weather must be divine in Cape Town about now.

Watch any “man on the street” interview and you will learn how uninformed some Americans are. And, we have every means of information and education available to us 24/7.
I recently watched a video (can’t find it) of a person interviewing people in a US city about the Chilean miner story. You would be interested to know how many had not heard of the event. This was a story that was reported on for days.
When your existence is centered on survival, the outside world may not be in focus.

It usually is great at this time (this is sixth year I’ve come to visit), but Saturday and Sunday were pretty rainy and today is sunny, but quite chilly. Warmer last week in Philadelphia! However, expect it to change to more normal warmth soon.

You don’t know what a straw man argument is. My statement was based on “If…then” reasoning. If what square1 said is true “You can’t refight old wars”, then…”Pay reparations for slavery, re-distribute wealth, make amends for colonialism? I see your point.”
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Your argument really centers on the statement of Square1. Apparently most of you believe that you can and should re-fight old wars. Wars are not only fought in physical battle; are you that naive? Wars are cultural, spiritual, generational, etc. So, do we continue to fight old wars? You betcha.