The W. Show

The hardest part of covering the White House is portraying the banality of the human being presiding at the heart of the sprawling executive branch of American government. In the case of George W. Bush, the caricature of incompetence accepted by much of the country by the end of his second term obscured as much about the daily work of the president as the adulation of his supporters had in the immediate aftermath of 9/11.

So there was reason to hope that the roll-out of Bush’s memoirs, “Decision Points,” would begin to reconstruct some of the more lifelike elements of his presidency. What debates had actually unfolded before 9/11 between the President and his advisors as to the nature of the al Qaeda threat? How had Bush become convinced that going to war in Iraq in March 2003 was so urgent that it precluded pursuing three more months of diplomacy or the apparent possibility of forcing Saddam Hussein into exile? How had Bush decided to overturn generations of American opposition to torture to embrace waterboarding? What personal considerations led Bush to move so slowly after Katrina engulfed New Orleans?

Bush spent plenty of time on the book, and plenty of time planning the roll out. He assembled a team of advisors from his White House days, his publishers at Crown and his current office to script the unveiling. “The president was not short of a lot of good options from all of the networks, and from multiple anchors at the networks,” said Dana Perino, Bush’s last press secretary who was one of those Bush consulted on the plan. “NBC had a compelling package that included a prime-time hour and promotions, as well as Today Show appearances, that was compelling; however, just as important was the president’s desire to have a conversation, not a debate,” Perino said.

In the end, the “candid conversation with Matt Lauer”, as the hour-long prime time interview Monday evening was billed, was something more of a high-production-value index than a detailed look inside the mechanics of the Bush presidency. Against an innocuous grey back-drop Bush and Lauer spent most of the conversation at a gleaming wood table with two indistinguishable leatherbound books on one end, bracketed by somber but reassuring string chords at the start and finish of the segments. Lauer touched all the nerves, but with the air of a doctor informing a sufficiently etherized patient that he’d feel a little pressure.

And Bush pushed back. When Lauer asked about waterboarding, the interrogation technique that the U.S. government, Congress and the courts had all concluded constituted torture, Bush said he had approved the technique and that “It was the right thing to do.” When Lauer asked if that meant Bush thought it was OK for foreign countries to waterboard captured Americans, Bush said, “All I ask is that people read the book.”

The interview did bring back the personal atmospherics of the presidency. There was the empathetic side of Bush, the one that made him an effective retail politician, as he teared up talking about his relationship with his father and mother. There was the too-easy dismissal of serious issues, as when he defended against the waterboarding decision by saying he did it “’cause the lawyers said it was legal.” And most of all there was the perpetual, uncomfortable coexistence of confidence and defensiveness that ended up giving the country the impression that he had been in over his head all along.

But that didn’t help with the facts. Bush has always said it will take years for history to judge his presidency. Maybe the book itself will provide some of the detail that can help make the two terms less of a caricature. But it’s safe to say NBC’s review of Bush’s presidency won’t move the needle much. What it did do is remind viewers of the particular brand of defensive patriotism Bush embodied. “I hope I’m judged a success,” Bush said at the end of the show, “I’m comfortable knowing I gave it my all, and I love America and it was an honor to serve.”

Related Topics: Uncategorized
  • Latest on Swampland

    Pete Souza / White House

    Obama’s Persuasive Powers on Gay Marriage Manifest in Maryland

    When President Obama endorsed gay marriage earlier this month, the media grappled with two basic political questions: Was his personal “evolution” a case of  a politician transparently following a national trend toward accepting same-sex unions (accelerated, perhaps, by his chatty number two), and would it hurt his re-election chances by alienating socially conservative voters like black churchgoers? Sure, there was a recognition that it marked a gratifying moment for gay marriage advocates—as well as some grumbling about the President’s view that it remains a state issue, not a federal one. But by and large, there were few suggestions that one man, even the President, would shift public opinion on the issue or affect public policy. Based on a new Public Policy Polling survey out of Maryland, it seems this possibility was underestimated.

    Lewis Eisenberg, Major Romney Donor, Accuses Obama Of Demonizing Wall StreetHuffPost Politics

    Cherokee Zero

    Apparently, Massachusetts voters don’t mind that Elizabeth Warren foolishly identified herself as a Native American early in her academic career–it was, apparently, a case of family pride and wishful thinking about a Cherokee ancestor. That’s good. Warren may be the best public figure when it comes to explaining the depredations of the financial industry and [...]

  • kbanginmotown

    Was Cheney in the room, drinking a glass of water?
    .
    And, if so, did W. sound like he was gargling?
    .
    Jus’ askin’….

  • Cliff

    If that smug SOB develops dementia, it’ll be too good for him.

  • herby002

    Or was Karl Rove hovering in the rafters, pulling the strings?

  • sambam34

    That was some show, and it brought all those horrible memories of this incurious, incompetent man-boy who swaggered through 8 years in office while he ran our country into the ground.

    Most telling was the man’s concern about losing Cheney as a “friend” because he wasn’t willing to pardon Scooter Libby (although he did let that convicted felon who put politics over his country out of prison without serving his term). The feelings of inadequacy, insecurity, maybe even fear, run close to the surface.

    In summary the best thing W has done in the last 10 years is to stay out of sight after he left office. If only he would go back into his foxhole and stay there.

  • square1

    the caricature of incompetence

    Good Lord! The “caricature” of incompetence? You mean like when the caricature of a hurricane flooded the caricature of New Orleans and then Michael Brown, Bush’s caricature of a FEMA leader, was more worried about his fashion statement than getting people out alive and then spent a week trying to find the convention center on a map?

    No. That was actual incompetence.

    But good job giving us the caricature of a journalist.

  • http://elvisberg.wordpress.com Elvis Elvisberg

    the caricature of incompetence accepted by much of the country by the end of his second term
    -
    But not by Republicans!
    -
    http://www.gallup.com/poll/113770/Bush-Presidency-Closes-34-Approval-61-Disapproval.aspx
    -
    As he left office, 34% of Americans approved of the overall job Bush was doing as president and 61% disapproved. 28 percent of independents approved; 75 percent of Republicans did.
    -
    Republicans have a deep, principled belief in big deficits and misleadingly sold, incompetently prosecuted wars.

  • liberalmeltdown

    Oh goodie, a hate on George Bush post. Go ahead losers, let out all the hate Bush BS. It won’t do you any good psychologically or politically.

  • liberalmeltdown

    Yes, Bush should have personally drove the buses to evacuate the people that were ordered to evacuate, oh…no wait they weren’t ordered to evacuate. Their Mayor didn’t order an evacuation, didn’t use buses, didn’t do Sheet, neither did the Governor. But, Bush should have. Well he did. He told people to get out. You can find it on youtube. Learn to google.

  • apr2563

    Not hating Bush is a difficult task. When I think of all of the deaths he caused, the torture he approved, the lives that were hurt by him, it takes great moral depths not to hate him.
    I don’t hate him. I hate what he did.
    Why would anyone think he would have a moment of contrition or self-doubt? He has already shared his revisionist history so why bother interviewing him? Be more interested in his victims, please.

  • apr2563

    W’s legacy. Who’s dying in Iraq in pixels.
    .
    http://gizmodo.com/5684297/whos-dying-in-the-iraq-war-in-pixels
    .
    Instead of holding W’s hands during the interviews, a good reporter would confront him with some of the more obvious facts that constituted his corrupt administration. Instead of wondering if Bush and Cheney still get along, I wonder how they can stand to be in the same room. Their shame should overwhelm them.

  • liberalmeltdown

    Oh cry me a river April. If Saddam wasn’t such a wacko that killed his own people and invaded Kuwait and threatened to build chemical weapons, all would be different. If his two darling sons didn’t rape, torture and throw people in wood chippers, we could have all been one happy family. Everyone thought that Saddam had WMD. Saddam was crazy. He led the world to believe that he wanted to build WMD. He used WMD. The mistake was leaving that madman in power after the first Gulf War.
    .
    After 9/11 another attack would have been a disaster. Financial markets would have crashed and forget air travel. We would be in a depression still. He ordered water boarding of a key al Queda leader. His duty was to protect Americans. I don’t see any long term damage to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. Frankly, I don’t care. If it makes you feel better, I hope that he gets counseling before they execute him.

  • http://derekg.wordpress.com/ Derek

    One thing Bush is smart about is the fact that he knows he can admit to authorizing war crimes and not face a single penalty for doing so. If we had a media or opposition party with any ethical integrity that is a story line that would be front and center.

    I imagine the media is too busy shining their pompoms for the Iran war to notice?

  • ricardo4max

    How ironic is it that THE most incompetent President of modern times sits in the White House (or is off on an incredibly expensive royal tour somewhere) while the anti-American left (aka Democrats) continue to be obsessed with a former President, who while not the best public speaker, was vastly better at performing the duties of chief executive and protecting this nation.

  • ricardo4max

    I don’t call them libs any more. They are anti-American radical leftists. They are foaming at the mouth since the country by the widest margin in modern history REJECTED their radical left America hating President and his agenda. We are in the process of recovering America and minimizing the effects and influence of the enemies of freedom and liberty. To paraphrase John Paul Jones, “We have just begun to fight!”

  • ricardo4max

    hate is what you villains are all about. pure emotion rather than logic and reason. It appears as though the good guys just won one for the Gipper.

  • http://derekg.wordpress.com/ Derek

    “Yes I murdered hundreds of thousands of people in Iraq but I was doing the bestest I can, I also believe in blue skies and freedom for all, now buy my book.”

  • ricardo4max

    Here in Florida, people have enough common sense to a) get out of the way and b) be prepared and responsible for themselves in the aftermath of a hurricane. The whole blame Bush thing is just media driven propaganda from the left wing Bush haters.
    teach your children and grandchildren the truth so the revisionists don’t win.

  • Alex Vallas

    Absolutely the worst president in the history of this country. Not only was he incompetent, he surrounded himself with self serving, paranoid, war mongering individuals. He was duped by Wolfowitz and Perle to invade Iraq when they knew damn well there were WMD in Iraq. Cheney and the rest of the neocons bought in. The damage done by these individuals will affect this country for years if not generations.

  • charlieromeobravo

    How exactly has Obama fallen short of the low bar Bush set for “protecting” us? Several plots have been stopped, none executed so far under Obama’s watch so far. Under Bush? 9/11 and several anthrax attacks. And, to the best of our knowledge, the plots Obama’s people stopped were stopped without compromising those American values that Bush apologists claim to hold so dear.
    .
    I wish someone could explain something to me. For conservatives, Obama and the citizens that are opposed to torture are anti-American for wanting to maintain certain base level American values like opposing torture and upholding the rule of law BUT Bush and his people are American heroes and died in the wool patriots for subverting basic constitutional principles like due process and long established legal precedents like how water boarding *is* torture.
    .
    Obama: following American laws and values = anti-American cancer bent on destroying our country.
    .
    Bush: ignoring our laws and compromising our values = Patriot rock-star.
    .
    Just say you guys don’t like Obama because you don’t like him and stop with the mind bending intellectual dissonance and be done with it.

  • jsfox

    “. . .hate is what you villains are all about.”

    pot meet kettle.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    was so urgent that it precluded pursuing three more months

    It’s not hard to figure out. If he had waited any longer his rationale might have disappeared. It was clear from the get-go that the urgency was manufactured because the war itself was the only goal. No thought about what would happen later. No thought about other options. Hurry up and invade before someone spoils it!
    .
    It was disgusting at the time and it’s still disgusting.

  • hippooath

    “hate is what you villains are all about. pure emotion rather than logic and reason. It appears as though the good guys just won one for the Gipper”
    .
    villians?
    .
    Who the hell uses a word like villians outside comic books? I personally don’t hate one single person including the former administration. Their records stands on its own. You on the other hand consider a portion of Americans villians and loath the current president. You’re one hypocritical 2 dimensional cartoon.

  • newfreedomblog

    Oh dear, feel the love from the left. Isn’t it wonderful?
    .
    Please. Your trite comments about Bush have been going on now for over 4 years. Each and everyone of you bone-heads wouldn’t know whether to squat to pi$$ or stand up.
    .
    When Bush took office in 2000 the hand writing on the wall had already been written. Al Qaeda had already set up a process to invade this country thanks to the LACK of action on Clinton’s part. This is fact. While Clinton was playing games in the Oval office with a 20-something young girl, having sex on the Resolute desk the evils minds of the world were plotting against us.
    .
    Then in 2001 we were attacked. Attacked for the first time since Pearl Harbor by those who, yes here it is wait for it, ENEMIES WHO WANT TO KILL US ALL. Usually in history, if an aggressor attacks you. Kills your citizens. The leader of said country will take action. Bush did.
    .
    While pursuing the enemy in their own country, a 30+ year Dictator decided it was time to act out yet again. Ignoring all of the diplomatic processes, this ruthless Dictator, the likes which have not been seen since the worst of all Dictators, Hitler, of all time. Sadam made it abundantly clear of not only his intentions, but whose side it was he was taking in this new “War on Terror”. The Jihad, which our current President refuses to acknowledge was on. We were and still are at War.
    .
    Actions in a War are usually without fail sometimes heartless, sometimes too gruesome to watch, and sometimes the only choices left to make. It is a friggin War for God’s sake. But the namby-pamby’s from the left want all wars fought with “rules”. To fight with hands tied behind backs not for the aggressors, but for those sworn to protect and defend the United States of America.
    .
    They want dictators like Sadam Hussein treated like the school-yard bully. To let him get away with it all the while saying, “we must treat everyone the same”. We cannot have a winner in any of this on the playground. How would poor Johnny grow up being a loser all of his life? So we, the namby-pamby’s will make everyone a winner. Everyone gets a prize. Of course in real life this cannot, and will never work. The liberal / progressive political correctness is exactly what it is, total bull-crap.
    .
    There are winners. There are losers. Life is about choices, and the outcomes from those choices. Bush made choices. He stuck by those choices and never wavered. And thankfully, this country has never seen a similar attack since despite the many attempts.
    .
    One can only thank God that either Kerry or Gore were not in charge at the time. Gore like Obama today would have completely ignored the problem, and would have instead been concerned about his primary life’s agenda, Global Warming. As Obama has been totally clueless about this economy, Gore wouldn’t have had a clue as to what to do with the likes of Al-Qaeda. He would have been working diligently to restrict the carbon footprints of everyone except people just like him. As a result of Gore’s total ineffectiveness, today, the rest of us would be reading and going to daily prayers wearing our Juan Williams Muslim garb chanting Allah Akbar!! Allah Akbar!!
    .
    But again thankfully, now all we need to worry about is the next 2 years until the fool in the White House is booted out of office like his sister, Pelosi.

  • hippooath

    The former president made sure that it was ‘legal’ – very reassuring, but couldn’t exactly bother with the whole moral aspect of doing the right thing.

    If you would argue that about say abortion I’m sure the right crown would spit themselves into a frenzy.

    Not one single expert says that torture work, but then waterboarding isn’t torture anymore. Rush likened it with something almost uncomfortable and Sean I think wanted to waterboard himself to prove that it wasn’t that special but backed out. Pulled his back I guess or a hair or something.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Again, Rusty you suffer from the sin of overgeneralization that ruins almost everything you think about. The whole reason Bush was able to sell the war is because you think of Middle Easterners as one single mass and fail to understand that they aren’t “all the same” Your inability to distunguish Al Qaeda religious extremists with the the ONLY secular government in the region is exactly how Bush managed to pull one over on you. You would think that you’d rather not wallow in your ignorance but you seem rather proud of it.

  • http://derekg.wordpress.com/ Derek

    “Each and everyone of you bone-heads wouldn’t know whether to squat to pi$$ or stand up.
    .
    While Clinton was playing games in the Oval office with a 20-something young girl, having sex on the Resolute desk the evils minds of the world were plotting against us.
    .
    But the namby-pamby’s from the left want all wars fought with “rules”.
    .
    The liberal / progressive political correctness is exactly what it is, total bull-crap.
    .
    As a result of Gore’s total ineffectiveness, today, the rest of us would be reading and going to daily prayers wearing our Juan Williams Muslim garb chanting Allah Akbar!! Allah Akbar!!”
    .
    I’m sure it gives you a short, momentary pleasure to write sentences like those above but the fact remains, none of them are actual arguments. That fact will refuse to go away, even if you pepper it with more emotion and vitriol than before.

  • nflfoghorn

    Wile E. Coyote…Super Genius. :)

  • nflfoghorn

    NBC canceled “Undercovers” for this???

  • nflfoghorn

    Not to mention that pirate thingy where the pirates all got shot up and the hostages were saved. But you’re not interested in good turnouts are ya Richochet4Marbles?

  • http://forgottenlord.livejournal.com forgottenlord

    And people wonder why Obama might’ve used a word like enemies. I mean, if we’re seen as the villains by the Republicans, why wouldn’t we start seeing Republicans as enemies?

  • freeinpa

    Moral hypocrisy AGAIN!
    .

    Killing innocent babies – “a choice”

    Killing people who want us dead – horrors how could Bush ,it was immoral!

    Seems you need to get a moral compass before you accuse anyone else of moral problems.
    .

  • diecash1

    Talk about your revisionist history. Since you intimate some nebulous connection, why don’t you tell us what precisely Iraq had to do with 9/11?

  • Asharaxx

    I’m envious, at times. Life must be so simple when you have such broad, sweeping generalizations of entire groups of people. And admirable moral values that you don’t actually have to follow, that you can drop whenever it’s most convenient.
    .
    If only I didn’t have to face all this damned reality.

  • Asharaxx

    Oh noooooooo! Don’t call us things! Our feelings might be irrevocably hurt! And we’ll have to go on TV and cry about it!
    .
    On the slim chance that you interact with someone, I don’t recommend you bring up this subject. With that many words you’d probably bite your tongue in your fervor.
    .
    Though, weren’t you the one showing sympathy for someone who had their tires slashed? Where did that go, and how can we get it back? It’s amazing what even pretending to be human can do for your conversation skills.

  • jlbrumb

    Oh, yes! There was certainly no local incompetence before, during and after Katrina.

    Bush apparently personally encouraged looting, removed anyone that could drive a bus and sent the motley crew to Dallas, where we could feed and clothe the unwashed and ungrateful masses.

  • chupkar

    “the anti-American left (aka Democrats)”

    I resent that LIE. This is such a huge problem. Democrats are just as patriotic as anyone. THis infuriates me. And it is plain wrong.

  • charlieromeobravo

    Yeah, yeah, Rusty, we know. Non-whites, particularly Muslims are all evil and out to get us all, might makes right, the USA is inherently correct and righteous expect when it’s being led by non-conservatives then it’s being dismantled by America haters from the inside bent on destroying our country from the inside out. But, mostly Muslims are evil and trying to kill us.

  • newfreedomblog

    “The whole reason Bush was able to sell the war is because you think of Middle Easterners as one single mass and fail to understand that they aren’t “all the same”

    .
    Yea, just the same as the generalization you have squirted out of your keyboard, right? Refute the points I’ve made, rather than making up more lies and innuendos. Perhaps then we can have a discussion and debate rather than more liberal lip-service to your libtard friends on this site.
    .
    But, as we have found many many times in the past, you libtards can only sound off by making allegations with no basis what-so-ever. Cannot source your statements with fact. You can only use hyperbole to refute what someone else states.
    .
    Yea, generalizations are hard to back up. You prove that point each and everyday you comment on this blog.

  • textee

    Massimo Calabresi asserts (falsely): “How had Bush decided to overturn generations of American opposition to torture to embrace waterboarding?”

    Has there ever been more boilerplate leftist idiocy packed into a single sentence?

    1. Waterboarding is not “torture”.

    2. Can we get Calabresi to provide any evidence that anyone other than members of the America-hating community (particularly its media arm, i.e., the Washington/New York/American/European/Arab press corps) opposes waterboarding of America-hating terrorists? Don’t bet on it, boys and girls.

  • whiterosemama

    newfreedomblog, maybe you should do some research regarding President Clinton’s actions against Saddam & some military actions he took to safeguard us. I won’t write of the list since I believe you should educate yourself. However, I will say that he felt Saddam was a possible threat & wanted a regime change. He also DID take military action against Iraqi anti-air installations, which is something Republicans all tend to ignore. When Bush invaded Iraq after 911, there was absolutely no evidence that Saddam was behind that attack. Our govn’t supposedly knew bin Laden was responsible, but Bush chose to go after Saddam. By the way, WHERE is bin Laden? After all the bombing of babies, women & old men, after spending all our resources including borrowed funds, bin Laden is still on the loose. Republicans are against killing unborn babies, but they apparently approve of dropping bombs on live innocent babies. If indeed the Iraqis suffered under Saddam, they suffered even more because of Bush. They saw their country destroyed as well as their families & friends, their lives. Their young people who witnessed all that WILL remember. Further, it was the responsibility of the Iraqi people to overthrow their dictator if they wished, not our responsibility. There are many other dictators–we can’t be responsible for the entire world (can’t even take care of our own backyard). As for the destruction of our economy, the Iraqi war was just the beginning. Then the FED lowered the interest rate which implemented the decline of the housing market. Developers and banks took advantage of the low interest rate; buyers were lured by adjustable, low rates; and eventually developers could not sell their houses, and homeowners couldn’t afford higher interest rates. Don’t blame homeowners–it takes a lawyer to understand legal documents. Also, low interest rates deterred investments by the working class. There is so much more about Bush & his administration that I detest on how he ignored our laws, the Constitution, etc., but that would take a book.

  • diecash1

    You’re a typical right-wing reactionary dumba$$ textee. Why don’t you let some fresh air into that echo chamber in which you reside? You could use it.

    The United States knows quite a bit about waterboarding. The U.S. government — whether acting alone before domestic courts, commissions and courts-martial or as part of the world community — has not only condemned the use of water torture but has severely punished those who applied it.
    ..
    After World War II, we convicted several Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American and Allied prisoners of war. At the trial of his captors, then-Lt. Chase J. Nielsen, one of the 1942 Army Air Forces officers who flew in the Doolittle Raid and was captured by the Japanese, testified: “I was given several types of torture. . . . I was given what they call the water cure.” He was asked what he felt when the Japanese soldiers poured the water. “Well, I felt more or less like I was drowning,” he replied, “just gasping between life and death.”
    [snip]
    As a result of such accounts, a number of Japanese prison-camp officers and guards were convicted of torture that clearly violated the laws of war. They were not the only defendants convicted in such cases. As far back as the U.S. occupation of the Philippines after the 1898 Spanish-American War, U.S. soldiers were court-martialed for using the “water cure” to question Filipino guerrillas.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/02/AR2007110201170.html
    ..
    Only idiots like you think that waterboarding is not torture despite all facts and evidence to the contrary. Get a clue.

  • formerlyjames

    I had almost come to admiring Bush for laying low and keeping his mouth shut after leaving office, and had hoped that this coming out interview would contribute to an understanding of the dynamics of a failed administration. Not so. Terrible disappointment. Milquetoast interview, nothing worth hearing. For all of the missteps by the administration, the most interesting is the role of Chaney, how he came to be there (Bush claims he chose him, we know he chose himself), why Bush place so much trust in him and his cronies Rummy and the neocons, and if, at the end, he realized what a mistake he had made in relying on them.
    .
    I won’t bother tuning into any more Bush interviews, or Lauer ones either.

  • http://ecsheedy.wordpress.com ecsheedy

    Reading the comments is always more interesting than reading the article.

  • hippooath

    Thanks for your overreach in generalization. Now how about support any, anything or something. Just one thing with facts.
    .
    Short of facts it’s just mental masturbation – but what do I know, the super villian that I am.

  • earljr1

    More sanctimonious drivel from hippo, but we have grown to expect no less from this progressive apologist. Your moral equivalency is outrageous and your willingness to kill babies shows the magnitude of your depravity. Your representation of progressive values clearly exemplifies the overall unpopularity with your political persuasion. It is a one way ticket to bankruptcy, both financially and morally.

  • hippooath

    “Killing innocent babies – “a choice”

    Killing people who want us dead – horrors how could Bush ,it was immoral!

    Seems you need to get a moral compass before you accuse anyone else of moral problems.”
    .
    As I wrote, argue legal and moral and abortion and righties fly into a froth.
    .
    Hey, pay attention. We’re talking about torture here. I know that changing the subject is your speciality, but there’s no confusing in killing someone who tries to kill you and torture someone as a useless way of getting good information.
    .
    And it seems like you need to realign your moral compass but that would be asking a lot from a person with absolutely no integrity.

  • hippooath

    “More sanctimonious drivel from hippo, but we have grown to expect no less from this progressive apologist. Your moral equivalency is outrageous and your willingness to kill babies shows the magnitude of your depravity. Your representation of progressive values clearly exemplifies the overall unpopularity with your political persuasion. It is a one way ticket to bankruptcy, both financially and morally.”
    .
    Earl pretend doc. Let me explain something since you missed the point when your right brain shortcircuit from red meat overload.
    .
    Bush excuses a amoral act because it’s legal. And that seems to be fine with you guys. So I assume then since there are a lot of righties that find abortion amoral that they’re in reality fine with it since it’s legal. It’s called logic. Try it sometimes.
    .
    Now maybe pretend doc earl and freeinpa can point to where I mentioned abortion being good, alright, that I like to kill me some fetuces etc – whatever made your brains go into a tailspin. You can’t. Which proves the point that I made.
    .
    Thanks for the illustration.

  • piper1

    Welcome to Swampland

  • rdw56

    They were not convicted because they waterboarded Neilson. They were convicted because the the men who died as a result of the ‘water cure’ which is a common result. You’ve already lost this argument.

  • rdw56

    “When Bush invaded Iraq after 911, there was absolutely no evidence that Saddam was behind that attack.”

    Bush never suggested he was behind it.

  • hippooath

    “As a result of such accounts, a number of Japanese prison-camp officers and guards were convicted of torture that clearly violated the laws of war. They were not the only defendants convicted in such cases. As far back as the U.S. occupation of the Philippines after the 1898 Spanish-American War, U.S. soldiers were court-martialed for using the “water cure” to question Filipino guerrillas.”
    .
    rdw56 – feel free justifying torture but just as you try its still torture and its not legal, despite caling it differently.

  • rdw56

    “I had almost come to admiring Bush for laying low and keeping his mouth shut after leaving office’

    “Quite the contrast with Obama isn’t it? Non-partisan Americans, which is to say a large majority, recognize class and respect it when they see it. Bush played it perfectly in refusing to respond to a long series of taunts almost on the level of schoolboy. He looks quite the bigger man because he is the bigger man and several polls are showing a consistent rebound in his numbers as Obama slides. Perhaps this election, a far worse drubbing that GWB ever suffered, will teach the man it’s time to stop complaining and man up.

  • rdw56

    Bush only went there and on Oprah to sell books and get the maximum initial push. The vast majority of the people who get their news from ABCnews are far too insulated and close-minded to listen to GWB. This book is for conservatives and independents. His gift is he’s a very warm guy as is his father and only the hard harded can hate him. This has been a very shrewdly planned rollout and no doubt will be well executed. It’s a supreme irony that Time will ignore but history will record the Obama’s national defense policy is virtually identical, if not more muscular, and his defense policy, virtually identical, and in Afghanstan, far more muscular. It’s a hoot to be conservative and read cranks such as Mr. Klein and Andrew Sullivan try to prove the surge didn’t work. The surge that Obama, Joe, and Andrew promised would not work. You know it eats up Joe inside his over the top rhetoric on the surge is so readily accessible on the web and is frequently cited as an example of his brilliant insight. Pity the MSM can’t control the news anymore.

  • earljr1

    Just how ignorant can one person be? You keep moving the bar higher and higher, hippo, progressive apologist, personified. By the way, THIS is the correct spelling for fetus. It applies to an unborn child after the third month in uterine development. Your fetuce might as well be a head of lettuce, for all of the compassion you show. Tell us, hippoignoramus, how DO you feel about abortion?

  • rdw56

    Actually it was legal until GWB ruled it out via executive order. Justice dept lawyers ruled under the constitution it was legal. Fascinating the ACLU didn’t take it to the courts for the Supreme’s to issue a ruling. Common sense tells us there is only one reason for that. They know they’d lose.

    One of the great things about having someone as superficial as Obama in office is he can do things Bush could not because he appreciates how superficial his base is. He also signed an executive order banning waterboarding. Of course it was totally useless since Bush had already done so. He signed an order to close Gitmo. Two liberal wet dreams. Then he went on to make the law of the land every single Bush national security policy he railed against on the campaign trail. Suddenly rendition and warrantless wiretaps were good things. While signing an utterly worthless order to close Gitmo he applied GWBs legal arguments to win the right to hold detainees in Baghram indefinitely without trial and won in front of the Supreme Court. An added touch was increased assassination campaigns in Pakistan via the development of drone wolfpacks including the authorization of the targeting of an American citizen.

    As Charles Krauthammer pointed out, once the Presidents of both parties endorse a tactic or policy it becomes defacto the law of the land. How many airhead libs still rant about Bush overrunning the constitution and then use rendition as an example oblivious to the fact Obama heartily endorsed rendition?

    You can see how difficult it will be for historians to repeat such nonsense.

  • diecash1

    Classic earljr. When confronted, retreat in a weak attack on someone’s spelling. Typical of you earljr, low rent indeed.

  • rdw56

    “rdw56 – feel free justifying torture but just as you try its still torture and its not legal, despite caling it differently.”

    Waterboarding is not torture. Is is a safe and humane way of protecting lives. Bush still has widespread support for using it on KSM. KSM is as fit as a fiddle and word is provided very valuable intelligence. It’s pretty cool that Cheney cleaned his clock last year on this issue by demanding Obama release the intelligence gained from KSM and how it was used to protect American lives. Obama of course refused. The obvious conclusion is Obama is the one with something to hide.

    There are two logical tests proving is isn’t torture. We use it on thousands of our troops and agents as part of training each year. It actually is illegal to torture anyone. Surely the ACLU, if it really believed waterboarding was torture would file a lawsuit to protect our troops. Plus 20% of adults self-identify as liberal. Does any group care more about the health and well being of our soldiers than liberals? One thing we know is if they really thought it was illegal they would do everything in their power to stop such barbarism. Since they’ve done absolutely nothing it’s clear this was nothing more than partisan nonsense.

  • rdw56

    The Bush Threat to Obama
    November 9, 2010 1:40 P.M.
    By Jonah Goldberg

    I watched the Bush interview last night on NBC. While I might quibble with this or that, the obvious take-away, I think, is that he helped himself enormously. The fact that he won’t criticize Obama, and hasn’t for two years, actually serves as the most devastating criticism of Obama he could offer. Bush, Obama’s punching bag, is turning the other cheek and taking the higher road.

    Of course, this country has always been forgiving of ex-presidents, of both parties. Nostalgia, the weight of current controversies, the desire to seem magnanimous at no cost: these are just a few of the reasons we tend to elevate ex-presidents pretty quickly. Personally, while I still have serious disagreements with the Bush administration, I think Bush is entirely deserving of personal rehabilitation. Whatever his faults, he was far from the evil ogre or dangerous dunce his detractors made him into.

    What will be fascinating is to see whether increasing warm feelings for Bush (and growing nostalgia for a once-anemic Bush economy that may seem rosy compared to the Obama economy) creates real problems for the current president.

    Obama has been at his shabbiest in his constant running down of his predecessor and his constant blame shifting. Some of Obama’s claims have some merit, I should concede. But they come across as unpresidential and even whiny. It worked on the campaign trail. But as Obama has been learning all-too-slowly, the presidency is not a campaign and what works on the hustings falls flat in the Oval Office. So it will be interesting to see if Obama can resist Bush-bashing even as Bush’s popularity rises. I suspect he won’t be able to stop, thanks to his vanity and his inability to drop rhetorical crutches. And while he certainly needs an enemy, picking on a guy who refuses to fight back out of respect for the presidency, will not help Obama’s image with anyone, save his ever-shrinking base.

  • hippooath

    “Just how ignorant can one person be? You keep moving the bar higher and higher, hippo, progressive apologist, personified. By the way, THIS is the correct spelling for fetus. It applies to an unborn child after the third month in uterine development. Your fetuce might as well be a head of lettuce, for all of the compassion you show. Tell us, hippoignoramus, how DO you feel about abortion?”
    .
    Thanks for the spelling correction. Now what compassion are you talking about? Compassion about feeling that torture is a amoral act? You betcha. And thanks for all the witty snarky comments and how you twisted my ID into something else. It’s probably right up there with falling on your @ss humor and the kind of stuff carrot top does. You’re not only one of the best pretend doctors around, but you’re also a comedic genius.

  • lyrik007

    Worst president ever.

  • diecash1

    Waterboarding is torture and only an idiot like you would claim otherwise. Feel free to read U.S Code Title 18 Part 1, Chapter 113c and the UN Convention Against Torture (signed by Reagan) for an understanding of what constitutes torture. The President does not make the law with his actions and it is uniformly stupid and dangerous to believe so.

    The former Bush/Cheney administration and its apologists in the media continue to claim that it is an open question as to whether “waterboarding” (immobilizing a person, pouring water over his/her face and breathing passages, suffocating him/her and leading him/her to believe he/she will die) is torture and forbidden in U.S. law. The question is ridiculous.
    ..
    Waterboarding (as it is now called) is one of the oldest known forms of torture. In the 1500s it was used in the Spanish Inquisition.
    ..
    In 1898, an American soldier (Captain Edwin F. Glenn) used the technique (then called the “water cure”) on a prisoner captured in the Philippines during the Spanish-American War. When reported, Americans were shocked and protests led to Elihu Root, U.S. Secretary of War (now called Secretary of Defense) ordered Glenn court-martialed in 1902 and imprisoned. A general under whose command this and other tortures occurred was court-martialed and removed from the army.
    ..
    During WWII, both the Gestapo and some Japanese soldiers used waterboarding as a form of torture. The Japanese were tried after the war and at least one hung by U.S. forces for waterboarding U.S. Airman Chase J. Nielsen.
    ..
    Waterboarding was declared illegal by U.S. generals during the Vietnam War. When a journalist photgraphed an American soldier helping two South Vietnamese soldiers waterboard a captured North Vietnames soldier, and published in the Washington Post in 1968, it caused outrage across the United States. The soldier was court-martialed and dishonorably discharged from the U.S. army.
    In 1983, Texas sheriff James Parker was sentenced to ten years in prison and his deputies to four years apiece for waterboarding prisoners. When his case came up for clemency years later, then Gov. George W. Bush refused to pardon Sheriff Parker, specifically stating that no one is above the law.
    ..
    In 1988, U.S. President Ronald Reagan signed the United Nations Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman, or Degrading Treatment, or Punishment of 1984. It was ratified by the U.S. Senate in 1994. Since the U.S. Constitution classifies all treaties that the U.S. signs and ratifies as sharing the Constitution’s status as “highest law of the land,” then the U.S. must follow the Convention Against Torture’s provisions, including those which demand prosecution of those who authorize and those who implement torture. It also forbids the U.S. to ship people to other countries that practice torture (“rendition”) and the Bush administration was guilty of that, also.

    http://levellers.wordpress.com/2009/04/26/waterboarding-as-torture-in-us-law/
    ..
    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sup_01_18_10_I_20_113C.html

  • hippooath

    “As Charles Krauthammer pointed out, once the Presidents of both parties endorse a tactic or policy it becomes defacto the law of the land. How many airhead libs still rant about Bush overrunning the constitution and then use rendition as an example oblivious to the fact Obama heartily endorsed rendition? ”
    .
    That’s swell. Bush signed a executive order and laywers said it was alright. Not one single expert agrees. That’s the diffence between moral and legal. You then claim that according to the a legal and torture expert Krauthammer points out that when it’s a policy that both parties agree in it is a defacto law of the land.
    .
    It’s a wonder then that 6000 years of human history of using torture have been thrown out the window by every single modern democracy in the world. Not only pointed out as ineffective but also as a moral blight on us.
    .
    Now it’s okay because two amoral partiers decide to continue using it?
    .
    You must mistake me for one of your kind; I don’t excuse any politician, even if they’re on my ‘side’ if they use something as disgusting as torture. Even if changing it’s name and rubberstamped by spineless lawyers and a president so weakkneed that he had to adopt a torture technique we prosecuted others for using.
    .
    You have a very fluid moral understanding.

  • viciousmaniac

    The only thing worth knowing about this wretch’s regime is the involvement of Israeli and Zionist neo-cons in foreign policy. Iraq and Afghanistan are merely are a pincer movement to strike at or contain Iran; the fact that they are both also a comedy of errors is incidental. Bush himself is also obviously incidental and a smokescreen for suckers to get angry at; the real villains are those like Wolfowitz, Perle, Schuenemann, etc. and they need scrutiny more stronger than the likes of Lauer.
    .
    On another not, I find the liberals’ rancor about Bush’s wars pretty comical; he’s actually following a tried-and-true Demo-Rat tradition of Wilsonian warmongering that extends to Truman, LBJ, JFK (the latter responsible for the Baath party in the first place, ironically enough).

  • hippooath

    “Is is a safe and humane way of protecting lives.”
    .
    Didn’t you claim that they (Japanese) were sentenced for the death that is common in using waterboarding and now you’re saying it’s safe and humane?
    .
    You really don’t know how conflicted you are in defending a reprehensive act such as torture.

  • hippooath

    Do you know that communism have risen in popularity in Russia? I guess the very same people who suffered under communism really didn’t see it as bad when capitalism looted the country after Perestroika. Throw a starving person a slab of meat and call it human flesh and we’ll see just how popular cannibalism will be.
    .
    Logic like that is funny

  • rdw56

    Interesting that Bill Clinton has had much closer relationships with the GOP Presidents than his own party. He and GHWB are now famously good friends while he and GWB are comfortable with each other. Clinton and Carter despise each other while Obama famously played the race card on Bill during the campaign and has been less than respectful of
    his Presidency. Loved how he described Reagan’s Presidency as transformational but not Bill’s. Kinda catty but these are liberal men. Anyone going to watch Sara Palin on TLC?

  • rdw56

    Not at all. IN fact he’ll do very well. You are probably thinking because his polls were low he’s going to be poorly remembered. Truman’s in the top 10 and his polls were lower. It’s amazing that Obama will help him in this regard. For all of the so-called unpopularity of his national security policy Obama shifted from chief critic to chief endorser. How cool is that?

  • rdw56

    Yes I did, you see when we use waterboarding the clients don’t die. They sing. They go on to live healthy and productive lives as long as they sing. In this case on the beautiful Island of Cuba with views of the Caribbean Sea. In the case of the Japanese and previous practioners the clients DIED. Slight difference.

    Hey smuck, why wasn’t it taken to the courts? Why didn’t this Congress with this huge liberal majority pass legislation to ban it?

    You got Obama signing a presidential order banning it that is utterly useless. He knows it’s useless. Everyone with a brain knows it’s useless. The next President with a flick of a pen, without telling us, can restore the option. Absolutely, positively totally useless. Which is why liberals loved it.

  • rdw56

    So why aren’t they communist?

  • rdw56

    For the record Cheney has cleaned Obama’s clock on this subject. The public still supports the water boarding of KSM. And guess what? He’ll never see NYC either. What is Obama’s next step on that debacle? This Congress will obviously never authorize as much as a dime to move him, let alone a trial anywhere in the USA.

  • earljr1

    Oh my, did hippoignoramus get her tail feathers ruffled? Too bad. There is nothing more humorous than a flustered, wet hen. By the way, your pretend doc removed a malignant tumor from a woman’s lung this morning and this afternoon, I will repair a defective, leaking aorta in a six year old boy. Just exactly what have YOU done today that is productive for society hippoignoramus? Let me hazard a guess….. precisely nothing!

  • hippooath

    “So why aren’t they communist?”
    .
    Considering that they practially are right now…yeah.
    .
    You miss the point of course. Popularity have nothing to do with right and wrong.

  • hippooath

    I don’t watch reality show. It makes you dumb. Watching dumb reality shows interests me even less.

  • rdw56

    . It also forbids the U.S. to ship people to other countries that practice torture (“rendition”) and the Bush administration was guilty of that, also.

    *************************************

    Funny, I think Clinton started this and Obama has APPROVED IT.

    BTW: forget the UN. Obama made a huge mistake in warming up to those clowns. The GOP is going to take a knife to the budget. The UN won’t be happy. Do you know the polls for the UN are in the toilet? And under this House, which will investigate all expenditures, they are going lower.

  • Alex Vallas

    Major typo: Correction: The Bush Administration knew damn well there were NO WMD in Iraq.

  • diecash1

    Yes I did, you see when we use waterboarding the clients don’t die. They sing. They go on to live healthy and productive lives as long as they sing.

    So, by your tortured “logic”, if someone were to shoot you but you survived to live a “healthy and productive” life, they would not be guilty of a crime, right? Brilliant. You get dumber with each successive post.
    ..
    The fact that a prisoner didn’t die does not indicate that it is not torture; you’re just to thick to get that.

    Why didn’t this Congress with this huge liberal majority pass legislation to ban it?

    First, there were (and still are) laws that prohibit torture so passing new ones would be redundant. Second, the failure to investigate and prosecute a host of W’s sycophants was merely a craven political calculation that will be judged harshly by history.

  • diecash1

    Funny, I think Clinton started this and Obama has APPROVED IT.

    Funny, even if true, it doesn’t make it legal. Slight difference there, huh?

  • http://teacherreaderwriter.wordpress.com/ Shakespeare in GA

    rdw56 wrote: It’s a hoot to be conservative and read cranks such as Mr. Klein and Andrew Sullivan try to prove the surge didn’t work. The surge that Obama, Joe, and Andrew promised would not work.
    .
    You’re kidding, right? How, precisely, did the surge work? Wasn’t its stated goal to give the Iraqi gov’t breathing room to grow? And what has happened since? What has the sacrifice of our men and women in uniform brought us? Where is the Iraqi gov’t? It’s allying with Sadr, which means with Iran, and the country is edging toward civil war again.
    .
    The surge created a brief time of relative peace–so relative that in most other countries in the world it would not be seen as peace at all. That brief time is ending.
    .
    If that is how you want to judge the surge, then you are being as partisan as any “radical liberal” who posts on this site.
    .
    I’ve got former students who went over to Iraq and fought. Thankfully they made it back. And there is precious little to show for it.

  • http://teacherreaderwriter.wordpress.com/ Shakespeare in GA

    I find it ridiculously amusing that right-wing patriots like yourself find the idea of trying KSM in NYC to be a terrible idea.
    .
    What better place? Why not try all captured suspected terrorists in federal court? (I know, KSM has that little problem about his testimony not being allowed due to it being obtained under illegal procedures.)
    .
    Why are some conservatives so afraid of using our legal system–one of the pillars of our system of government–to try suspected terrorists?
    .
    Especially when that system has worked in the past with other terrorists?

  • apr2563

    Just finished a book on the relationship between Richard Nixon and muckracker Jack Anderson. It struck me how many current Republican players learned their ethics at the knees of Nixon: Rumsfeld, Cheney, Rove, Larmar Alexander, Roger Ailes, Chuck Colson, G. Gordon Liddy, Pat Buchanan, and numerous others.
    They brought their corruption and paranoia with them.

  • whiterosemama

    rdw56

    19.1″When Bush invaded Iraq after 911, there was absolutely no evidence that Saddam was behind that attack.”

    Bush never suggested he was behind it.
    rdw56
    November 9, 2010
    at 1:00 pm

    You are right o course. I forgot. Instead of going after bin Laden, he crawled under his desk in the oval office looking for WMDs! It was a big joke to him.

  • rdw56

    “How, precisely, did the surge work? Wasn’t its stated goal to give the Iraqi gov’t breathing room to grow”

    Exactly!!! And that is precisely what happened. The politicians were given time and room to grow. What they did with it was up to them.

    The surge might be the greatest tactical military victory of the post WWII era although I can’t profess to be an expert on Korean and Vietnam tactics. But the speed of the success was stunning against daunting odd. It’s was a remarkable achievement by General David Petraeus

  • Asharaxx

    “Just exactly what have YOU done today that is productive for society”
    .
    Doesn’t matter, you wouldn’t believe it, regardless of what it is(or isn’t). That’s, unfortunately, how this works.
    .
    “By the way, your pretend doc removed a malignant tumor from a woman’s lung this morning and this afternoon, I will repair a defective, leaking aorta in a six year old boy.”
    .
    You forgot to mention how you did it with one hand tied behind your back, in an airplane in turbulence. Truth or not, you’re laying it on pretty thick for blog commentary.

  • rdw56

    “The fact that a prisoner didn’t die does not indicate that it is not torture; you’re just to thick to get that.”

    No, it’s an example of why you liberals keep on losing arguments. Water curing and previous efforts of waterboarding used by the Japanese and other butchers were designed to kill in a painful way if the client didn’t cooperate. The kill rates were between 90% and 100%. The kill rate under GWB was 0%. They are very different things. The vast majority of Americans were easily able to make the distinction and tuned liberals out. There is a reason why at most 20% of Americans will call themselves liberals. This is a sleezy debating tactic and we know from polling not at all successful.

  • rdw56

    What better place?

    The way Bush planned and KSM agreed. I have no fear whatsoever of trying him in the USA or anywhere else. I think it’s S T U P I D. Bloomberg said he needed $200M for security. For some turd? Are you brain dead?

    This tactic of attributing fear to the motives of conservatives is again an example of liberal stupidity. You cannot win arguments being stupid. No sane person wants to spend an extra dollar to try KSM. I’m sure it’ll impress the French if we send him to NYC. Impressed with our stupidity. You worry about the French. I won’t. Trust me. After this election the House won’t allocate 3 cents to transfer him. Actually, even Pelosi wasn’t that stupid.

  • sambam34

    Good points charlieromeobravo. But you left out the most important.

    Bush DIDN’T protect us – the biggest terrorist attack on US soil occurred on his watch, despite numerous warnings from the outgoing administration, despite Richard Clark who was running around “with his hair on firs”, and despite the fact that Cheney was supposed to be heading the anti-terrorism task force that didn’t meet for 8 months because he was too busy working with Ken Lay and his lobbyist friends in secret, writing our energy policy.

    It’s amazing to hear the right wing wackos on this thread go on about how Bush “protected the country” when we failed at his most basic responsibility within 8 months of taking office.

  • rdw56

    “Funny, even if true, it doesn’t make it legal.”

    Actually it pretty much does. It is official policy of the USA with the stamp of approval of both parties. It’s either legal or illegal and we can rule out illegal. Might it be challenged eventually? Possibly? But with so many millions of high minder liberals why hasn’t it been? You’ve only had two decades.

  • rdw56

    The surge created a brief time of relative peace–so relative that in most other countries in the world it would not be seen as peace at all. That brief time is ending

    *******

    Well it started in 2006 and we’re headed into 2011. They’ve had time. As far as most other countries note I am a liberal. I find what the French amusing, not interesting, not informative, amusing. Nothing more. We are the greatest nation in the history of civilization. Not France.

  • rdw56

    More on the surge:

    This was a huge defeat for the MSM and major political achievement for GWB. Joe Klein is now horrified about his corrosive comments regarding Bush and Petraeus for trying it. He attacked Petraeus military judgement. Joe isn’t a bad guy but liberals of his age are sissies. He never served. I’m not sure if his greater problem is embarrassment at how wrong he was, how impossible it is to hide the record, or that while the surge was underway the efforts of the MSM to downplay the success were totally overwhelmed by embeds and bloggers. Time, the NYTs, Newsweek, ABC, etal were very late in reporting what the surge was and how successful it was and how quickly. The blogs were fabulous. If you get your news from ABC news you were totally ignorant of the brilliant plan.

    Most liberals are still totally ignorant as to what the surge was. Because prissy journalists were jealous of the respect and admiration enjoyed by the military they never reported on the sharp change in tactics trying to attribute it simply to more troops. It’s a fantastic story of American success. David Petraeus is a brilliant General. You will most certainly die never understanding the elegant aspects of the tactics. Bin Laden said we’d collapse. Petreaus beat the snot of Al Qaeda. While 80% or so of his effort is dedicated toward protecting the population it’s the other 20% that drives success. Think Patton. David’s intention was to remove Al Qada by exterminating them. It’s lesson Obama understands well. We are now sending drone wolfpacks into Pakistan to kill. No trials. NO habeaus corpus. No miranda rights. Just kill them.

  • rdw56

    What are you talking about? What in Golbergs post has to do with right and wrong? it’s about the grace and class of Bush staying out of politics versus the whiny Obama taking cheap shots at him.

  • hippooath

    “Oh my, did hippoignoramus get her tail feathers ruffled?”
    .
    By you? You wish. If that was your best attempt you might want to take a class or something.
    ..
    “There is nothing more humorous than a flustered, wet hen. By the way, your pretend doc removed a malignant tumor from a woman’s lung this morning and this afternoon, I will repair a defective, leaking aorta in a six year old boy.”
    .
    You go on pretending that you did and had time logging on to put me in my place with your…anemic attempt to whatever you’re doing.
    .
    “Just exactly what have YOU done today that is productive for society hippoignoramus? Let me hazard a guess….. precisely nothing!”"
    .
    To be honest I have probably done about as much as you have, minus being an ignorant @ss. Although playing with the dog for a bit did bring an even bigger smile to my face than reading your bile.
    .
    Anyway – thanks for the laugh.

  • rdw56

    BTW: Calabrisi is a clueless ass but this is Time. The reference to banal is to recall the line about Adolf Eichmann, manager of the extermination process in Germany, as the ‘banality of evil”.

    He’s got less class than Obama. Liberals never learn. You morons just got your heads handed to you because of your arrogance yet you keep making the same dumb mistakes. Newsweek sold for $1. They overpaid.

    .

  • hippooath

    “Actually it pretty much does. It is official policy of the USA with the stamp of approval of both parties. It’s either legal or illegal and we can rule out illegal. Might it be challenged eventually? Possibly? But with so many millions of high minder liberals why hasn’t it been? You’ve only had two decades.”
    .
    I dunno man – you’ve been torturing logic for a while now and it’s giving me whiplash since you’re all over the place even punching yourself in the face after saying one thing than contradicting it.
    .
    You can let logic go now. She promises that it was the pizza delivery boy.

  • hippooath

    “What are you talking about? What in Golbergs post has to do with right and wrong? it’s about the grace and class of Bush staying out of politics versus the whiny Obama taking cheap shots at him.”
    .
    Everything has to do with right and wrong. Popularity doesn’t make you right. You’re the one telling us that Bush will be viewed by history with kinder eyes and siting the rising popularity. It’s not brain surgery, even doc earl will tell you that.

  • hippooath

    “He’s got less class than Obama. Liberals never learn. You morons just got your heads handed to you because of your arrogance yet you keep making the same dumb mistakes.”
    .
    We were put in place by a bunch of people who view Obama as socialist and that our current HC bill have death panels in it.
    .
    Maybe it makes me arrogant to point out the ignorance of those statements but all I have to do is to point out your own; socialism and fascism are both on the left side because they’re totalitarian and they’re not about ownership of production, they’re about control.
    .
    So did you get a lollipop when you graduated from Glenn Becks university?

  • rdw56

    “So did you get a lollipop when you graduated from Glenn Becks university?”

    The problem with the new media is much worse than you know. I’ve never seen more than an hour total of his TV show since it’s been on and I never hear his radio show. He’s so good at enraging liberals I know about him because of various links to bloggers talking about him.

    I know Goldberg because I read the National Review On line so I am very familiar with the book and the logic. It’s was Jonah’s great luck that he opened up on the NYTs bestseller lists and stayed there a few weeks and went on Glen Beck 5 or 6 weeks after it came out and Beck embraced it immediately. It want but to the best seller lists.

    Goldberg hit on a great theme. Wherever Fascism belonged on the political spectrum in the 30′s the right is defined by modern conservative which is best described by small govt, individual freedom. ALL of the totalitarian systems by definition are left of center. One doesn’t need a political science degree to see the obvious.

  • rdw56

    Did you see him on Oprah? Only saw about 15 minutes and he did a great job. By all means stick with the hiding behind the desk stuff. It’s small, petty, childish and stupid. Bush isn’t banal. He’s a frat boy. He’s a nice guy with a sense of humor not at all afraid to make fun of himself. He’s got a very endearing personality.

    Oprah was the picture of class and appeared to enjoy her interview. Liberals are full of hatred. There is nothing healthy there. Independents don’t have the bile. They’ll see a man at peace with himself who did the best he could and will enjoy his personality.

  • rdw56

    Yes, and liberals got their ethics from Snow White.

  • rdw56

    I don’t either but this is an outdoor show with dog-sledding, fishing, hunting and rock climbing, with gorgeous Alaska as the background and gorgeous Sarah as foreground. Savvy for both TLC and Palin.
    She’ll access a huge non-political audience and pocket a reported $8M in the process. Gotta love capitalism.

  • hippooath

    “Wherever Fascism belonged on the political spectrum in the 30′s the right is defined by modern conservative which is best described by small govt, individual freedom. ALL of the totalitarian systems by definition are left of center. One doesn’t need a political science degree to see the obvious.”
    .
    If you make up sh!t it is. You probably should get that degree so you know what it’s obviously not. You might wonder then why a lot of the American right were nazi sympathizers before we got drawn into WW II.
    .
    Thanks for the revisionist history lesson. You have a long road ahead of you but I’m sure you can make it when you finally wake up.

  • rdw56

    Bush will be seen in a positive light by historians because of what he accomplished, not polls.

    Look at the legislative achievement of the surge. He lost both houses of congress and Reid and Pelosi had promised no surge. He won. They lost. Plus it was he who picked Petraeus.

  • hippooath

    “I don’t either but this is an outdoor show with dog-sledding, fishing, hunting and rock climbing, with gorgeous Alaska as the background and gorgeous Sarah as foreground. Savvy for both TLC and Palin.
    She’ll access a huge non-political audience and pocket a reported $8M in the process. Gotta love capitalism.”
    .
    Good for her. She’ll be able to tap into the huge ‘non-political’ audience that watch Jersey shore and Kate plus eight.
    .
    If I want to watch mother nature I either visit it for real or watch national geographic where I don’t have to deal with made up drama for the sake of mental retardation.
    .
    Enjoy your waste of time in front of the TV – I will schedule that time for reality.

  • rdw56

    Let it go. It’s a loser. No one cares about KSM. No one cares what the French think about KSM. If a President tomorrow finds a KSM and wishes to water board him He can absolutely do so.

  • diecash1

    Actually it pretty much does. It is official policy of the USA with the stamp of approval of both parties.

    I must have been absent the day they taught that the President could make his own laws through some de facto process without the prior approval of Congress and absent judicial oversight. Maybe you went to school at one of those “radical” madrasas that the right-wingers are always going on about. That would explain your complete lack of logic and antipathy for the facts.

  • diecash1

    the right is defined by modern conservative which is best described by small govt, individual freedom.

    Small government: Yeah right. Reagan and HW Bush expanded the size of government and W presided over the largest increase in government in over 40 years.
    ..
    Individual freedom: The Orwellian Patriot Act, illegal wiretapping, rendition, torture, bogus war in Iraq, etc. Yup, they certainly stand for lots of things but freedom, individual or otherwise, is not among them.
    ..
    They are best described as corporatist scumbags.

  • rdw56

    First, there were (and still are) laws that prohibit torture so passing new ones would be redundant

    *******************************************************

    Water boarding is not torture so those laws are not applicable

  • rdw56

    ‘I must have been absent the day they taught that the President could make his own laws through some de facto process without the prior approval of Congress and absent judicial oversight”

    ************************************

    This isn’t near as hard as you make it. The President is entitled to his own policies as long as they are no prohibited by law. Rendition and wireless wiretapping are not illegal. When Obama came in and ‘approved’ Bush policies they became official, uncontested US policy.

    You have to be terribly disappointed. History will be unkind to some of those on this issue and none more than Obama. As Senator in opposition he was a bitter critic. It there a single issue he hadn’t turned 180 degrees on as President? What a fraud.

  • earljr1

    Admit it, hippoignoramus, you are a useless twerp with NO redeeming qualities. People like you and assrax contribute NOTHING and soothe your guilt by taking exception with people who DO work and pay taxes. Your “entitlement” mentality has reduced you to being nothing more than excess baggage and a drain on society. Liberalism at its finest…you should be ashamed of yourselves. (but you no longer have this capacity)

  • michaelfury
  • diecash1

    The only fraud here is you. You can repeat wingnut talking points as often as you like, it doesn’t make them true. Waterboarding has a long history, dating back to the Spanish-American War, as being considered torture. You twist logic to such a degree that you contend that it is not torture because they didn’t die but we’ve prosecuted people for it. Look no further than 1983 in Texas:

    In 1983, the Department of Justice affirmed that the use of water torture techniques was indeed criminal conduct under U.S. law. Sheriff James Parker of San Jacinto County, Texas, was charged,
    along with three of his deputies, for handcuffing prisoners to chairs, placing towels over their faces, and pouring water on the cloth until they gave what the officers considered to be confessions.

    http://www.columbia.edu/cu/jtl/vol_45_2_files/Wallach.pdf
    ..
    Your heroes conspired to, and did violate U.S. and international law by torturing suspected terrorists regardless of what you believe. You might as well argue that the earth is flat and it is orbited by the Sun. Those positions are supported by as many facts as your position here.

  • rdw56

    According to Newsweek:

    Yoo’s . . . memo was prompted by CIA questions
    about what to do with a top Qaeda captive, Abu
    Zubaydah, who had turned uncooperative. And it was
    drafted after White House meetings convened by
    George W. Bush’s chief counsel, Alberto Gonzales,
    along with Defense Department general counsel William Haynes and David Addington, Vice-President
    Cheney’s counsel, who discussed specific interrogation
    techniques, says a source familiar with the discussions.

    Among the methods they found acceptable:
    “water-boarding,” or dripping water into a suspect’s
    face, which can feel like drowning

    The authors of the Yoo Memo concluded that:
    [T]orture as defined in and proscribed by Sections
    2340-2340A covers only extreme acts. Severe pain is
    generally of the kind difficult for the victim to endure.
    Where the pain is physical, it must be of an intensity
    akin to that which accompanies serious physical injury
    such as death or organ failure. Severe mental pain requires suffering not just at the moment of infliction
    but it also requires lasting psychological harm, such as
    seen in mental disorders like posttraumatic stress disorder.

    . . . Because the acts inflicting torture are extreme,
    there is a significant range of acts that though
    they might constitute cruel, inhuman, or degrading
    treatment or punishment fail to rise to the level of torture.

    ******************************************************

    Waterboarding is legal when ordered by the Commander-in-Chief Only the supreme court can rule differently. The UN will never trump US law.

  • diecash1

    Treaties become the law of the land when signed and ratified by the Senate. Water boarding is torture and is illegal despite your protestations otherwise.
    ..
    Someone previously sad you were boring. That’s not quite right; you’re tiresome with your fact-free rants and strict adherence to the dogma of the right. Tiresome and boring.

  • rdw56

    Iraq was a walk in the park compared to Vietnam. Korea and WWII. That’s 3 major wars in 3 consecutive decades and by 1980 it was already Morning in America. You are hyper ventilating.

    The loss of life and the wounds are devastating but the military has come out dramatically improved at every aspect of making war. Just consider the technological advancements that make the drone such a devastating weapon. The best example isn’t so much Afghanistan as Israel. After their labor intensive tank based invasion of Lebanon they worked with experts from the staff of David Petraeus to upgrade to smart technlogy to increase the lethality of their soldiers while better protecting them. By the time they went into Gaza they had a much smaller footprint and used all smart bombs guided by drones and copters. They managed a devastating 150-1 kill radio.

    Time a month ago did a cover story expressing shock average Israeli’s are uninterested in the peace talks. leaving aside the incompetence of Obama the fact is they are prosperous and safe largely because the cost to the Palestinians of war are now so devastating. They are safe behind the fence and due to combined US/Israeli investments in military technology tested in afghanistan Israel becomes more powerful every year. It’s not just the power but the protection and as you know technology drives down costs.

  • rdw56

    water boarding is NOT torture. John Yoo says so and his was the opinion that counted.

  • liberalmeltdown

    If the KNEW there were no WMD, they would not have said there were in front of the whole world, only to have it blow up in their faces. You are a genius. And the world thought that there were WMDs.

  • rdw56

    The Congress and executive are co-equal branches and the congress cannot over-rule the chief executive acting as the commander in chief. The UN’s definitions do not apply to the Commander in Chief in a time of war. John Yoo ruled water boarding as practiced by the US is not torture. Only the Supreme Court could make a different determination.

    One has to wonder what it’s like for a serious lefty so invested in getting the approval of the French, who were so disappointed in the American left getting push around by that dolt Bush, to then elect their messiah, and he’s even worse.

  • abdullah69

    hard to comprehend “sex games in the White House” when Bush was taking it up the butt from Rumsfeld, Cheney, Rove and Wolfowitz each and every day, and begging for more.

  • liberalmeltdown

    30.2, hate to break this to you but Hitler used class envy, hatred of bankers (the German version of Wall st), hatred of the rich to gain power. His ally Mussolini was a socialist, gained power as a socialist.

  • diecash1

    His ally Mussolini was a socialist, gained power as a socialist.

    Yeah, socialist, fascist, what’s the difference? Hate to break it to you but they’re not the same.

  • rdw56

    actually the left was far more sympathetic to national socialism and FDR was a fan of Mussolini.

  • rdw56

    The patriot act had bi-partisan support and was passed again by President Obama and a Democrat Congress. The same is true for warrantless wiretapping (which is legal) rendition, waterboarding, the war in Iraq received nearly 90 votes in the Senate.

    We are about to get nice reductions. Interestingly the UK is heading toward the US while Obama move toward the UK just cost him the worst election results in 80 years.

  • michaelfury
  • hippooath

    “Admit it, hippoignoramus, you are a useless twerp with NO redeeming qualities. People like you and assrax contribute NOTHING and soothe your guilt by taking exception with people who DO work and pay taxes. Your “entitlement” mentality has reduced you to being nothing more than excess baggage and a drain on society. Liberalism at its finest…you should be ashamed of yourselves. (but you no longer have this capacity)”
    .
    You’re not very mature are you? Stop pretending something you’re not. No one here gives a hoot, well maybe the rest of you guys that pretend your something special. It’s plain as day that you don’t know squat about your pretend occupation other than what you picked up watching general hospital. And if your goal is to come across as a pompous @ss you’re sure getting a gold star. Save me the posturing and try to argue your point instead of me. It’s really school yard stuff you know.

  • hippooath

    “actually the left was far more sympathetic to national socialism and FDR was a fan of Mussolini.”
    .
    Right. Again, get an education.

  • earljr1

    My point is this, hippoignorant. Liberalism is a persuasion for dreamers and schemers and you are a poster child for your movement. You would not know reality if it bit you in the butt, yet you somehow surmise that YOU have all the answers and everyone else is wrong. You have proven, beyond any doubt, an inability to grasp any meaningful fact and cling to your juvenile notion of milk and honey on every table and borrowing yourself out of debt. You know, for a dreamer like you, the real world is a scary place. Keep clutching your MaMa’s skirt and wait for your next entitlement check. There is NO way a loser like you can make it on his (or her, being the stronger probability) own.

  • herby002

    I remember the quote from Brown, but I can’t find it on the Web:

    “I don’t think it’s the job of the federal government to deliver ice to people to keep their Diet Pepsi cold”

    - while Katrina refugees were sweating in the heat, and what little medicine they had left was going bad without refrigeration.

  • herby002

    Yeah, I remember an interview on ‘Charlie Rose’ with some international expert where he responded to the question of what would Bush do if Saddam accepted the US terms and left Iraq; would the US call off its invasion? He answered: No. When you’re in the process of converging thousands of planes, ships, and 200,000 troops on a target, you don’t just stop. The invasion will happen, no matter what happens in Iraq.

  • hippooath

    “My point is this, hippoignorant. Liberalism is a persuasion for dreamers and schemers and you are a poster child for your movement. You would not know reality if it bit you in the butt, yet you somehow surmise that YOU have all the answers and everyone else is wrong. You have proven, beyond any doubt, an inability to grasp any meaningful fact and cling to your juvenile notion of milk and honey on every table and borrowing yourself out of debt. You know, for a dreamer like you, the real world is a scary place. Keep clutching your MaMa’s skirt and wait for your next entitlement check. There is NO way a loser like you can make it on his (or her, being the stronger probability) own.”
    .
    You sure told me. Calling me girlie man sure put me in place. I tell you – nothing proves beyond any doubt just how much doctor you are and what a liberal wuzz I am when a Neanderthal puppy beater like you tells me that I’m no man and a liberal loser living off the system. Anyways – thanks for your thoughtful commentary.

  • liberalmeltdown

    Even Nancy Pelosi approved of water boarding.

  • liberalmeltdown

    Other than parrot what you were told in grade school, can you provide examples of where Hitler was a conservative and not a leftist? He represented a workers party and railed against the Jews, who represented the bankers and he also railed against the bourgeoisie.

blog comments powered by Disqus