Roving Far and Wide

I posted this in the October surprises thread, but more appropriate here.

I agree with Greg, even more than where the money comes from the problem is the content, which you identify correctly as sleazy.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plum-line/2010/10/rove_chamber_ads_widely_debunk.html

While it is bad enough to worry about foreign investors interfering what do you, or anyone else, think will happen when domestic corporate interests no longer align with their aims?
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The answer to that question is not blowing in the wind.
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The answer to that question will answered, and soon. By the time we realize it, it may be too late…

No wonder there’s been such a strong reaction from the Chamber of Commerce and Rove to the accusations of using foreign money to influence American elections…

Don’t let yourself be distracted by the ‘they all do it’ arguments that come in. It’s nowhere near the same.

As usual, a good share of the traditional media are scoffing at the idea that Dems are running on the type of funding that Rove is attracting. Instead of finding out the facts and reporting them, it is easier to talk and write about the campaign tactic.
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They did this with the Swift Boat ads, only reporting in depth after the ads had run and been looped hundreds of times. Too little, too late.
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We have a whole network dedicated to supporting false advertising. Yet, how often does the traditional media challenge Fox?
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brian-ross/saying-it-doesnt-make-it_b_134185.html

I just love how scared Joe and the rest of the liberals are that real Americans are taking our country back. November 2, 2010 will go down as one of, if not the greatest days in the history of the United States. As much as Joe and the rest of the liberal America haters were concerned that Barry would wake up the silent majority, i.e. real Americans, his nightmare is about to come true!!!!!!!

I think, hussein11, that you should be afraid.
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Very, very afraid. If the Dems scare you on individual rights that much, just wait until you find out what will happen when your interests are no longer congruent with corporate interests…

And I’ll ask YOU the same thing that has been asked of others here…
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Assuming the “real Americans”, as you put it, take back the country.
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WHAT are they going to do with it?
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Any “details” you’d like to share with all of us, other than “Come November 2, all you libruls are going to be sooorrrrryyyy!”
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How, exactly, are you going to improve things?

Searching for the story about Obama’s broken promise to accept public finance in his run for president…
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In response, the Clinton campaign put out this press release:

Wolfson issued the following statement in response to Sen. Obama’s decision to break a pledge he made regarding public financing in the general election:

“Senator Obama says words matter. They do.

“Last year, Senator Obama pledged to take public financing in the general election if the Republican nominee agreed to do so as well.

“Unfortunately, he broke that pledge this week. It now appears that Senator Obama made a promise to the American people that he is not keeping. That’s wrong.

“That’s not change you can believe in.”
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No that’s Chains you can believe in.
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Speaking of misleading Joe, whether I agree with the ads or not, your statement that they are being funded by foreign corporations is false. The link you provide come up with a total of $885,000. The ad campaign is $50 million. Yet you don’t mention that.
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So, how are you different than Rove?

I know it is useless to ask but:
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“If you prick us do we not bleed? If you tickle us do we not laugh? If you poison us do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge?”
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Segregating by using the term “real Americans” is really to discount the sacrifices and contributions of a large group of people.
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If the far right wants a one party system, than they should say so. Alas, we know where that sort of orthodoxy leads.

“silent majority”
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We will find out about the latter, the former is false.

liberalmeltdown: All living things that have evolved past pond scum are different than Rove.

Don’t you love farce?
Our fault, I fear,
Send in the clowns,
Don’t bother, they’re here…

Hussein11 is going to get his wishes. We will have a two party system in name only…

Pnnto: Succinctly put.
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..your statement that they are being funded by foreign corporations is false.
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The statement would be false if Klein had written that the ads were fully funded.
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Yet you don’t mention that.
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He did provide a link to the source.
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Maybe, instead of knee-jerk messenger-shooting and desperately trying to change the topic, you’d care to address the propriety of using foreign contributions to finance election advertisements?

I’m not nearly as bothered by foreign investment into the ads as I am to the sheer amount of money invested by groups as a whole. But then again, I’m a Canadian where each party is capped on how much they can spend across the entire country at 20 million (at least for the 2008 election). In other words, each candidate is capped at ~$65K for their riding. An obscene 50 million spent by outside interests in a single race is bizarre to me.

You can see how badly the apple cart is upset here in Washington state.
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More than fifty percent of all political adverts are from corporate interests. Even though they are congruent with the true GOP advertising, they outstrip the amount put out by both parties put together.
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I know that GOPers will cheer the effort, but I don’t think they know yet just what it is they are getting into…

“Karl Rove is a great American patriot”
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I’m Jesus Christ too. Your snark still wins.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/10/one-gopers-proposal-to-save-the-world-1000-lasers.php?ref=fpa
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It is incomprehesible to me why Dems need to pay for advertising. If the media would just report the daily idiocy coming for the TP candidates, Dems would be rolling to victory.
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WV candidate Raese thinks we should simply lauch 1000 lasers into space and they would protect us from missles. Now!

Speaking of knee-jerk messenger shooting.

Why is it the only group to figure all this out is the non-partisan ( yeah right) ThinkProgress? The NYT WaPo and other liberal rags have examined it and have not come to the same conclusions. None of them are friends of Rove. And its not like the NYT would even need to have concrete evidence to smear Rove since they have done it to conservatives before with less.

So is the sleaze really Rove and the COC or just the typical liberal sleaze that is commonplace in political daily life.

Good point, apr2563. As always, the position goes from “unserious liberal extremist,” to “possibly true,” to “old news.”
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Maybe it’s not such a great idea to invade Iraq… maybe we’re committing torture… maybe Rumsfeld and Bush really aren’t actually great leaders… maybe the stimulus is too small… maybe these ads aren’t on the up and up…
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As for the Chamber of Commerce, they’ve been badly distorted from their original mission. They’re a money-raising, fear-enhancing evil little group now, facing defections from local Chambers as the radicalism of the national group damages their brand (link).

In the weeks leading up to health care’s passage in March, it was spending $800,000 a day trying to defeat the Democratic legislation. Livid that the law went through, the Chamber has now pledged to funnel $50 million—more than twice as much as the entire cash holdings of the Republican National Committee and the National Republican Congressional Committee put together (as of late May)—into an estimated forty House races and ten Senate races this fall. About eight of every ten dollars of Chamber political donations go to Republicans…. When, last fall, the Chamber made news with what was effectively a rejection of climate science, several major companies, including Apple Inc., dropped their membership in the organization—an exodus that provided a welcome public relations boost for the White House. But under the curious rules of Washington lobbying, losses can be as good as wins. “The worst thing to happen to Tom is to have an issue resolved, even to his own favor, because then he can’t raise any more funds on it,” says John Schulz, a former editor at the trade journal Traffic World, who’s covered Donohue for twenty-five years. “There’s nothing he can’t make a dollar on.”… In 2008, a third of its revenues came from just nineteen companies…. In 2008, the last year for which records are available, the Chamber posted operating losses of over $2.5 million and a net asset loss of over $29 million, according to its IRS filings. Meanwhile, Donohue’s salary, the lion’s share of it a revenue-based bonus, has more than tripled since he started. In the estimation of one former Chamber staffer who’s kept close track of its finances, “If Donohue’s plane goes down or he gets sick, the bubble’s going to pop.”

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Sounds like it’s all on the up and up! Nothing to see here!

Liberalmeltdown,
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How come you, free and freeinpa only have ‘but they do it too’ as as a lame comeback?
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Doesn’t it bother any of you that corporations are buying our political system and now foreign corporations are paying for political ads? I’m personally very much bother no matter who does it.
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One of the reasons why I laugh so hard when people accuse Obama of being a socialist, fascist or even communist is because he’s so tightly aligned with the blue dog democrats and their corporate interest.
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I don’t like that one bit. We simply cannot afford a system where all we count is who wins, especially when it’s financed with corporate money. Then the next thing we’ll have is current Italy where their current political leading party is bought and paid for with Berlosconi own the media that he advertise in.
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Doesn’t it bother you when your vote is essentially only needed come voting time and our voices are not represented in the policy implemented that seems to be written by our politicians paymasters?
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You cannot in any way shape and form have a free market if our political system is paid and bought for by corporate interest. Look at smaller towns where the local economy have been Wal Martificated. Where huge corporate companies are decimating and removing smaller businesses and slaughter wages. We can’t all live off Wal Mart type salaries.
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And it happens because corporations are getting more and more influence in our lives to the point that they can force themselves into our lives – buying off towns political system and now nationally.
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It is not in anyones interest that we have so many powerful groups with so much influence over the people who set the policies that guides our country.
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Look at the Roman empire what happened when more and more of it’s riches, ‘industry’ and land ownership was concentrated into a very few hands; it died.

Rove is the Benedict Arnold of American politics, but he’s no dummy. The RNC and that great performance artist, Michael Steele, are irrelevant to the electoral process not just in this election cycle, but for years to come. Rove, with the help of foreign money and anonymous US billionaires, will continue to lie ,cheat and buy elections for years to come. They are well aware that the electoral demographics in the US are changing to their detriment, so short of hiring mercenaries to protect their interests, the only other options are to coordinate the buying of an election in junction with election day voter intimidation.
The only way to get beyond the SCOTUS decision on campaign spending would be a constitutional amendment.Fat chance on that ever happening – too much dough and too many pockets to line.

I see a bunch of desperate lefties throwing everything under the sun at a teflon wall trying to make something stick. As if this “story” is somehow gonna miraculously energize a dead shrinking and stinking base into enthusiasm, thus stopping an eminent beatdown come Nov. To quote Schieffer: ” Is this all you’ve got?”

Exactly why is it lame? It just shows the going hypocrisy of the left. You have aneurysms here over things the left has been doing for years. So are you ticked that Republicans are doing these things and you lost that advantage or are you ticked that since you have done it your argument falls on deaf ears? What is lame is the level of whining about this. You are losing the arguments on principle and its not the media (who are slanted to the left anyway or folks lying. It is your philosophy is repulsive to the majority of Americans.

The left is bothered by corporations lobbying but are fine with unions, lawyers doing the same or help with Hollywood propaganda to help your cause. I am fairly certain this country would be better off without unions, less lawyers and Hollywood. No corporation no income no taxes no government.

I guess this is the October surprise. A mass attack sleazy mud throwing fit by the whining left. Although in reality its no surprise.
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Can you hear them stamping their feet as they type these posts?

Klein’s article is a hatchet job complaining about hatchet jobs.

So many sockpuppets, too little time…

Ok I actually read through this entire pile of crap… and discovered that that is exactly what it is.
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Nowhere, not in one single place does Think Progress actually back up their claims with real evidence.
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Yes they show conclusively that the Chamber of Commerce has been paid dues by U.S. companies operating overseas and even been paid dues by foreign corporations. However, the fail miserably to show that a single dime of the money that came from these foreign companies was used to fund political ads in this country. (Now, to be fair they would need documents they don’t have access to to prove this accusation one way or the other.)
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If freeinpa gives me a dollar, and say apr2563 gives me a dollar, they aren’t the same dang dollar! If i combine the dollar that freeinpa gives me with a $5 bill of my own and buy a pack of cigarettes with it, but I put the dollar apr2563 gave me in my bank account there is no one who can honestly say I used apr2563′s dollar to kill myself with cigarettes, because I didn’t.
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Groups like the Chamber of Commerce are audited by the Federal government every single year to make sure that they are segregating their money and NOT doing exactly what Think Progress alleges, which is a crime.
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“Most reporters (from the New York Times, McClatchy, the Associated Press, etc.) never contacted ThinkProgress, instead opting to only interview Chamber officials.”
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Yeah, because even the NY Times knows ThinkProgress is unreliable, and prone to making things up. And even the Times, which is pretty liberal (compared to say the WSJ) says ThinkProgess is a bunch of liars on this one.
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I said this yesterday and I’ll say it again. What ThinkProgress is alleging here is a federal crime, and a serious one, yet they have no real proof of their claim, only innuendo. In the America I grew up in people didn’t go around making accusations of serious criminal activity without actual proof, and those that did were considered to only be showing proof that they were d-bags.
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Do you really believe that the Dept. of Justice, IRS and some of the other alphabet soup Departments of the Government wouldn’t notice this rather serious crime on the sort of level that ThinkProgess suggests it’s going on and prosecute the Chamber for it? Really?
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Let me break down the ThinkProgress thought process here.
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1) The Federal Government is so all knowing and benevolent that it can easily run the worlds largest and most complicated (arguably best) medical system absolutely perfectly BUT
2) The Federal Government is so incompetent that it can’t prevent serious criminal activity relating to elections on the scale of BILLIONS of dollars and has to rely on groups like ThinkProgess to do THAT work for it.
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Uhhh….non sequitur anyone?
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Joe, you’re a shill, and a shill that’s easily taken in by propaganda at that.

Apologies to freeinpa and apr2563 for using your names in my demonstration without your permission. I shouldn’t have done that.
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Sorry.

Want to take a crack at the question at #2 directly, and without evasiveness or diversion?
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So far, freeinpa and earljr1 have either substituted “government” for “corporate interests” or evaded it entirely.
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Let’s see what you can do.
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Elvis, I talked to my cousin yesterday. Her son is the editor of a small town newspaper in Eastern Washington. The owner/publisher is a far right fanatic.
Her son maintains his editorial independence. However, the owner requires he belong to the Chamber of Commerce in their town. Sort of like forced union membership.

@53_3:
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“While it is bad enough to worry about foreign investors interfering what do you, or anyone else, think will happen when domestic corporate interests no longer align with their aims?”
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“…their aims” they being whom? Government, domestic corporations or foreign investors?
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Explain what you mean a touch better and I’ll be more than happy to answer you to the best of my ability.

Easy, sasquatch:
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Say you have a right to smoke. I don’t smoke, but I think that if you smoke in your own home, it’s a victimless crime.
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What if your aim is to preserve your right to smoke in your own home? What do you think will happen if corporate interests decide that the bottom line will be negatively affected?
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How about if you decide you believe in something they don’t agree with, say, pollution in your neighborhood, and campaign outside the workplace to restrain them, or to penalize and/or make them compensate residents for the damage they did?
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I already know what you think about government, so don’t divert.
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These are examples. Treat them as such. Answer the question directly. The question at 2 deals directly with these type of examples!

Well on the smoking issue, many companies including the University I went to decided they didn’t want their workers or professors (Fac&Staff) to smoke because it was jacking up the rate of the insurance they provided so they instituted mandatory nicotine screenings and if you failed a number of them you would lose your health coverage.
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Do I totally agree with this? No, not really. However, they are free to do it just as if you’re one of their employee’s you’re free to find another job.
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Personally, I don’t see this going any further than it has with respect to private industry. No matter how much money they throw at ad’s and buying members of Congress, there will never be a law that says you can’t smoke. Congress tried that before with prohibition of alcohol and it failed miserably, why they don’t get that with the war on drugs I don’t understand, but I digress.
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Further I don’t see any company in the U.S. being hurt by people that don’t work for it smoking, or at least being hurt enough to care and spend a lot of money changing the laws to “prevent” the use of cigarettes or smokeless tobacco (it would happen anyway, and create a blackmarket for tobacco products).
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On the pollution issue, it might be somewhat tougher to get them to stop whatever activities it is that they are engaged in which are causing the pollution in your neighborhood. Certainly there is a historical resistance to changes in these types of laws among the companies that pollute. These companies could probably overmatch you with funding of ads or political contributions directly to candidates in an effort to prevent the passage of a law that would sanction them/make the stop said activity/make them pay for cleanup etc.
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That said, it is actually possible though the media. No company wants a ton of bad PR, and children getting cancer from contaminated groundwater or some other vector that can be directly linked to the company is not something they want publicly known, especially if it’s also known that they are doing nothing or little about it and/or actively trying to stop legislation that would force them to do something about it.
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With private industry misbehavior, as with government misbehavior the light of day cleans up most of these blights because CEO’s just like Congressmen don’t want to be shown in a bad light, especially if people are getting sick or dying due directly to their actions.
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Personally, I don’t view the Supreme Court decision as a terrible affront to liberty. Basically they’ve given back the right to a corporation to lobby for it’s interests the same way ThinkProgress or Crossroads lobbies for theirs.
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I do foresee some potential problems, all of which can be fixed with real, rapid transparency of where and how money is moving around in the political arena, who is funding ad’s, who’s giving what contributions to whom etc.
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The problem with that actually is government, and it’s similar to the cancer that’s killing our school system.
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Politicians of all stripes love campaign contributions, and none of them are above gaining a bit from a 3rd party advertisement that supports them. However they might be a lot less excited about ad’s supporting them or attacking their opponent if the public knew who funded those ad’s, just as they might be a lot slower to take money from certain interest groups if the public knew about that.

husein11,
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Don’t take the Loons seriously.
They are brainwashed and if the country cannot be a Socialist Paradise their dreams have been destroyed.
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When Obama had all the money last election you did not hear them complaining. Now that the Republicans may have more money the sky is falling.
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Notice that dear old Joe Klein is engaging in the Democratic lie that the CC is using foreign money to advertise. He does this even though he knows that foreign dues to the CC are about 1/10 of 1% of their revenues.
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Joe, Obama and the Democrats know that they are all lying but their all perfectly willing to lie if it will help their LW agenda.
“The End Justifies The Means”. Lying is OK for the Left if it helps their cause.
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They will all be thrown out in November. 2/3 of Americans have no use for these lying bums’.
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Obama has proven himself the most Un-Presidential President is the history of our country.

Apr,
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Yes Apr you believe lies are OK for Joe and Liberals. Lying is part of the Liberal process for gaining control of the country and you and every other Liberal justify the use of lies if they help your cause.
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You are a total Hypocrite. Lies are not justified. This CC stuff is a lie and the Left knows it but will continue to use it anyway. And you wonder why 2/3 of our citizens have no use for you and your agenda.

Oh believe me, I do not take them seriously nor does any serious American.

It’s really pathetic that Barry spends his days reading extremist left wing blogs. But then again I’d much rather him do that or golf or vacation or anything else other than work as president. That is far more destructive to this country.

forgotten,
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“I’m not nearly as bothered by foreign investment into the ads as I am to the sheer amount of money invested by groups as a whole.”
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The dishonesty of people on the Left is simply amazing.
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There is not one piece of proof that the CC used any foreign money in political advertising. The NYT, The WP, AP and about every other major news source who has investigated the issue has come to the same conclusion that there is absolutely no proof the CC used any foreign money in advertising.
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Money from outside groups is another issue. Whatever is done on this issue in the future should be fair to each side.
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The dues collected by the CC from international members are approx. 1/10 of 1% of their total revenue.
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Anyone with any common sense would know that they would not break the law and use some of this very small amount of money for political advertising. No one is that ignorant.
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For those on the Left to continue to use this talking point when you know it’s a lie is totally ridicules

sacredh,
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“Karl Rove is a great American patriot”
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I’m Jesus Christ too. Your snark still wins.”
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Depend on your political views. Karl is no better or no worse than his many counterparts on the Left.
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Actually maybe a little better than his counterparts in that he doesn’t lie as much.

filmnoia,
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You Are A Liar.
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You have no proof of any foreign money. Every reputable organization who has investigated this issue has come to that conclusion.
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Why do you idiots on the Left keep lying.

film,
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You Are A Liar.
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You have no proof of any foreign money. Every reputable organization who has investigated this issue has come to that conclusion.
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Why do you idiots on the Left keep lying.

I may not agree with you on the seriousness of the situation, but at least you’ve avoided rhetoric, and is deserving of respect.

sasquatch08,
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“.Ok I actually read through this entire pile of crap… and discovered that that is exactly what it is.
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Nowhere, not in one single place does Think Progress actually back up their claims with real evidence.”
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Thank you for your honest post.
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The President and most of the leading Democrats continue to tell this Lie even when they know it’s not true.
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Almost all Politicians and journalist like Joe Klein will take comments out of context and try to convince people about something that is not really true.
In these cases the comments are true. It is the way the person spins the comments that is not true.
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That the President of our country and most Democratic Leaders are willing to lie even when there is not provable comment or information, I find very troubling.
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The Left on this site also continues to use this lie. This is not an opinion issue. It’s whether a person is honest or not.

Lying is OK for the Left if it helps their cause
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Big words, coming from a liar himself.

This is not an opinion issue. It’s whether a person is honest or not.
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In which case, you fail. So, what you you suggest we do with people (here or otherwise) are clearly not honest?

Actually maybe a little better than his counterparts in that he doesn’t lie as much.
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Jeez, 3x. It’s what Rove does for a living – and has been doing for at least 30 years.

ohiolibb,
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I normally don’t bother to reply to ignorant people but I’m making an exception this time.
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You have called me a Liar. I do not lie. I may state my opinion or perception on an issue that doesn’t fit your Liberal view, but I do not lie.
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Back up your comments if you can. Show were I have Lied.
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An honest mistake does not count. A lie is when you know it is a lie and say it anyway.
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I very interested in your reply.

“If we don’t find a solution to anonymous billionaires buying elections, we’re going to become Bolivia — and we’re well on our way.”
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I agree. How do we prevent George Soros and his buddies from trying to make our country a Socialist country and using his billions to move us towards his world view of a one world government.
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He uses his money continuously to try and take our country in a direction that the vast majority of our citizens do not want to go. This man is truly evil.
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Let’s look at the last line there,. This man is truly evil. Now, let’s compare that to a statement you made the very next day.

5. I believe my fellow citizens have a right to have different political views then my own and that does not make them Evil.
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So, either you believe that Soros is not evil or you believe that Soros is evil. Thing is, you’ve made two completely opposite statements within days of each other, and they completely contradict each other.And then you dug yourself in deeper, with
“It’s whether a person is honest or not.”
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Now, I suppose you could just be suffering from a bad case of double-think, or be an idiot. But take your pick: Liar, fool, or bigger fool engaged in doublethink.

Ohiolibb,
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Is that the best you can come up with to show that I have a pattern of lying?
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Pretty weak.
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If you say Karl Rove is Evil, I would not accuse you of lying. I would simply say that’s your opinion but I don’t agree with it.
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That’s the way rational people handle differences of opinions.
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A lie is when you know something is not true and you say it anyway. I do not lie but I do state my opinion and I respect your right to do the same.
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Now can you give me a few examples where you think I have lied? If not stop the ignorant posts.

Every time I see “Real Americans” in a post I stop reading. I know the rest is going to be real dumb, real angry, and really shallow.
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Now I challenge myself to see how quickly I can recognize the trolls and quit reading their posts. My best is six words! I’m hoping to improve. I believe that with a lot of training and dedication I can get it down to three.

No, If I said that Rove was evil one day and an honest but incorrect guy the next, I would be a liar. You see, it’s no possible to believe two opposite and mutually exclusive ideas at the same time, unless you’re mentally ill or a world-class idiot. So, is it liar, mentally ill, or idiot? You’re pretty obviously one or more.

ohiolibb,
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Does that mean you could not find any other supposed examples of me lying?
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Your only example is still very weak.
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I’m retired. Maybe you should get a day job.

I’m shock, just shock that money is coming in from other countries. SEIU maybe using dues from other countries, and the leadership even said this is a possibility. Why is this not being covered by the media? Where is Soroes’s money going?

Still can’t actually refute the charges, I see. Either put up, and explain how contradicting yourself is not a lie, mental illness, or idiocy, or shut up.

husein, you’ve got it all wrong. The liberal are thr real Americans and conservatives despise America. Read up on it, its in the Constitution and the Bible.

NewsBusters: TIME’s Klein Harps on Chamber’s ‘Foreign Money’ While Leftist Mother Jones Mag Says Complaint Is Weak
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/ken-shepherd/2010/10/14/times-klein-harps-chambers-foreign-money-while-leftist-mother-jones-ma

@ ohiolibb:
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“Still can’t actually refute the charges, I see. Either put up, and explain how contradicting yourself is not a lie, mental illness, or idiocy, or shut up.”
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This is EXACTLY the sort of behavior I was referring to in my original post. You’ve made a statement that 3x is a liar, you’ve offered some evidence of it, but in my mind very little and I’m not going to scroll through everything on the swamp to figure out exactly what you’re talking about here.
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I hate to get legalistic here but if you actually LIKE that form of legal argument system move to France where they jail your butt for not being able to prove 100% that you didn’t do what they allege you did.
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Personally the fact that American citizens believe in “guilty until proven innocent” in any area of life disgusts me.