Democratic Message Problems

James Carville is a jerk. Why is he (and the equally clueless Bob Schrum) considered an appropriate spokesman for a Democratic point of view? His one and only effective message was many years ago.

I guess I should be grateful that unlike NPR this is not yet another playing of a Christine O’Donnell commercial.

If only there were some profession, one that might even be called something of an institution, that could help inform people honestly about how the economy works and why we are where we are.

By which I do not mean a profession or institution that would defend the Democrats who have indeed made many mistakes pertaining to the economy but one that would be able to show people how foolish the “I was doing better under Bush” sentiment really is. Some one who might tell them that six or eight years ago they were doing better by using easy credit to supplant falling wages and that they were, in fact, living an illusion that led to the catastrophe that we are all now trying to mend.

It would be fun and rewarding work, Michael Crowley. Or you can just snark about some stupid campaign metaphor and act like the uninformed opinions of random poll subjects are news.

Michael Crowley:
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Those political operatives at DemocracyCorps write:

Because a “go forward” framework implies that Democrats and Congress have made progress those voters do not feel, the message re-enforces the Republican framework for the election – a referendum on the Democrats’ performance on the economy.

But, if voters are not actually experiencing substantial benefit (other than “it could have been so much worse”) from establishment, centrist Democrats’ policies, from the failure to help families avoid foreclosure (HAMP), to the failure to bring down unemployment (Recovery & Reinvestment Act), to the failure to “cut every family’s yearly premiums by $2500″ (PPACA), to the failure to ease the credit crunch (TALF’s P-PIP), perhaps the title of your post should read:
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Democratic Policy Problems
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, shouldn’t it, Michael Crowley?

Which policies are the Democrats proposing? How about the Republicans? What will their likely impact be?
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This kind of writing makes readers less well informed about the world.

He has lied too much; the message has become stale. The President has lost credibility, not that he ever had much, and there is no new miracle message that can be dished up to the people any longer. America has done with Obama.

http://ikejakson.wordpress.com/2009/04/04/comedy-at-its-best%e2%80%a6double-feature-in-the-planning/

“Who wouldn’t want to go back to 6 or 8 years ago?”

Memory fades rather quickly, doesn’t it?…but, because of that, I’m not disinclined to dismiss the Democracy Corps suggestions for an alteration in message. Now, whether Dems would act on that message is another issue entirely. The American middle class is tired of being left at the altar, jilted by politicians who have run off with the guys who drive the expensive cars.

The anti-GOP anger that drove the 2008 elections has softened into a more generalized level of frustration. Everyone’s upset about something.

America has done what with Obama?
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Subjected him to more lies and slander than any president before him?

Here’s a simple way to promote the message:
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Maybe the Democrats should setup a think tank to do research on the creation of more effective analogies?

stuart, let’s show people here in the swamp what a true, civil debate can be.
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Let’s take your statement that …
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“if voters are not actually experiencing substantial benefit (other than “it could have been so much worse”) from establishment, centrist Democrats’ policies, from the failure to help families avoid foreclosure (HAMP), to the failure to bring down unemployment (Recovery & Reinvestment Act), to the failure to “cut every family’s yearly premiums by $2500″ (PPACA), to the failure to ease the credit crunch (TALF’s P-PIP)”

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Now explain how a “movement Liberal” would have done anything differently. How would a movement liberal have saved people from foreclosure, how movement liberals would have stopped the loss of jobs, and we would not have unemployment at 10.1% today?
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I will give you the cutting of insurance premiums by $2500 dollars a year had our dear leaders in Washington enacted more competition in the insurance industry, or simply instituted a government run healthcare system ala socialist healthcare.
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But how would movement liberals have eased the credit crunch? Throw even more dollars at the problem out of our Federal Treasury which is already beyond broke?
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Let’s debate these issues. How would a movement liberal have stopped the blood from flowing, then perhaps we can better understand one another.

How about a bipartisan, blue ribbon panel of esteemed and wise users of metaphor. And also some people from the business community?

in 7 years people are going to LOVE Obama.

Is that before or after hell begins to freeze over. I just want to be prepared is all.
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LOL!!!

Speaking of analogies, democrats remind me of a back yard football game. There is no playbook, it is simply a matter of running helter skelter this way and that way and hope Obama doesn’t drop the ball…oops, he DID drop the ball (numerous times) and the republicans have recovered on the democrats two yard line (his losses have been that big) Tired of inept government and clueless leadership, the American public roars with enthusiasm and senses that a change in direction would prove beneficial to all. Final score: democrats lose, republicans AND America, wins! Socialism is soundly and decisively rejected. (hooray for the good guys!)

From the Democracy Corps link they have a list of “dos” for the Democratic candidates.
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“Show you understand the economic pain people experience and that you are listening to ordinary people, not the powerful”
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“Show that you are independent and determined to change Washington – with a focus on refusing perks, limiting lobbyists, and stopping corporate special breaks, subsidies and self-regulation”
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“Show that you are battling for ordinary, middle class voters in tough times, while Republicans in Washington are still looking out for Wall Street.”
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Among others. Wouldn’t it had more effective for the Democratic office holders to actually have done those things?

Kevin,

Frankly the Christine O’Donnell stuff is getting tiresome. I don’t care that she thinks you shouldn’t masterbate. I really don’t care that as a teen she dabbled in witchcraft. The real question is what will she bring if she were elected to Congress.

The Democratic effort to demonize the Tea Party will backfire. Instead of calling them, “crazies”, let’s ask where they stand on issues. What are the specifics of their proposals?

The Tea Party has tapped into an anger which is very real, an anger that is felt by Liberals and Conservatives alike. The problem is we need to constructively think of solutions and not take pot shots at the other side.

Someone should tell people that going back in time is not and has never been an option.

Wouldn’t it HAVE BEEN more effective
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Me talk pretty one day.

Maybe it’s ebonics, I don’t know.

Bring your coat.

Slightly OT….
Differences between MSM and Flox:
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MSM wants the party in power to be depressed.
Flox wants Democrats to be depressed.
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MSM – Polls show the party in power has no ideas left.
Flox – Polls show Democrats have no ideas left.
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MSM – maintains a modicum of objectivity
Flox – “fair and balanced” (TM)
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MSM – midterms = a chance for the minority party to gain the majority
Flox – midterms = a chance for the Republicans to lie, cheat and steal their way into power/keep power.

The insistence of the left that the problem with the Obama administration is a communication problem are seriously misreading the issue. In some part they are correct, however it is ot how the message is being delivered but the message itself.

This is only slightly more tedious than the constant “they are lying about us”. Obama ran on a platform to unite the country, and more on platitudes than actual plans. The MSM took the guided tour and was one of the largest cheerleaders. Democrats running for Congress ran on platforms of family values, fiscal responsibility and other conservative values. To date Obama and the Democratic Congress has run as far to the left when the financial crisis was at its apex as they could. Once the panic subsided Americans said wait a minute this is not what we signed up to do.
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As the anger built, the Democrats choose to be tone deaf and fell back upon some basics: “it’s Bush’s fault, its a racist right wing plot, Fox, Beck, Limbaugh etc are lying and spreading hate. Problem was the lies were from the left: Stimulus will stop unemployment at 8%, health care will let you keep you doctor etc. All lies and all very costly and not what the people wanted.
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The one very clear message the American people are getting is the left is telling them we will do what we want and we know better than you what want, what you need and how you will receive it. You are not smart enough to figure out even the simplest things. We will even tell you how to best spend your money.
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The American people have a surprise for the self-professed smartest guy in the room and he really won’t like it.

Telltale Sign (speaking of message problems!) Department –
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Former Czar of Florida Jed Blush, spinning for Rick Scott after his debate with Alex Sink:

“Asked why he was speaking to reporters instead of the candidate, Bush said, ‘I don’t know.’” [Associated Press]

OK, Rustydog
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“let’s show people here in the swamp what a true, civil debate can be”
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you’ve got it.
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This:
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“…explain how a “movement Liberal” would have done anything differently. How would a movement liberal have saved people from foreclosure…[etc]”
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is a superb question, so I’ll get right to it.
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Now you’ve read me say on this blog many, many times how I’m trying so hard not to bore people to death, and go on and on, etc.
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Since I’m really going to try to live by that this time, I’ll only take the first of the items in the list:
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“How would a movement liberal have saved people from foreclosure?”
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1) Cramdown.
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Movement liberals, had we been in control of the Democratic Party, would have used our majority, and sought to pass an adjustment to existing bankruptcy law that would have made it easier for homeowners to keep their homes while in bankruptcy.
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See, current law says that it’s OK for people who can’t pay their bills all of a sudden –individual people, not banks or huge corporations that suddenly can’t come up with money– due to some unforeseen crisis, to ask bankruptcy judges to re-evaluate the worth of their properties, as long as those properties are second homes, not the primary residences of the person in debt.
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That’s right, if you’ve got a second home, but you’re in bankruptcy court, you can argue before a judge that your house in Vale is way, way overvalued, and that court can adjust the terms of your mortgage to meet what you can pay, as well as what the current market value of your second mansion might be. It works the same for yachts, too, when you’re in bankruptcy. It’s as if the law were designed to help wealthy people hold on to their wealth, but to make middle class people lose everything.
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Movement liberals are proponents of changing that law to include primary residence mortgages as well as secondary. When the bottom dropped out of the housing market (when the financial industry bought too many un-redeemable credit default swaps from AIG against vast mixtures of their good and bad loans, cut up into “stock” securities, and AIG went bankrupt), lots of folks were stuck with houses whose mortgage values were ridiculously inflated. This meant that they couldn’t sell them, if they had trouble paying, say, if they lost their jobs like millions of other Americans did virtually overnight.
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We thought at the time that the Obama Administration was in favor of this approach, too. This was back before we liberals began to understand that they didn’t exactly mean “support” as in “will go out and campaign on getting it passed, shaming centrist Senators and Representatives into foregoing industry support,” they just meant “support” as in “say we’re for it, but then support those Democrats who work against it.”
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Due to the overwhelming, massive public popularity of, you know, helping people hold on to their ridiculously over-priced, height-of-the-bubble houses (after the tax assessor got done assessing taxes on 2007 property values) the House actually managed to pass a version of cramdown, although Rahm Emanuel’s centrist buddies worked against it with everything they had:
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http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123627573111742079.html

House Centrists Prevail on Altering Mortgages in Bankruptcy
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* MARCH 6, 2009
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By GREG HITT

WASHINGTON — The House approved “cram down” legislation that would allow troubled homeowners to ask bankruptcy judges for relief from mortgage debts — but only after Democratic centrists won concessions making the bill more lender-friendly.
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Much of the financial-services industry opposes the proposal, saying it would create uncertainty in an already troubled market and force them to raise the cost of lending. Nodding to those business arguments, a coalition of moderate Democrats blocked an earlier version of the bill. The moderates argued that greater efforts were needed to ensure that homeowners make good-faith attempts to work with their lenders, before going into bankruptcy.

So, you can imagine what happened in the Senate, right, where our favorite Senate New Democrat Coalition get to approve or veto everything that comes before them?

Congress Daily
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SENATE LEADERSHIP
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Reid Might Drop Cram-Down Provision From Banking Bill
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Friday, March 27, 2009
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Senate Majority Leader Reid said today he would drop a cram-down provision from a House-passed banking bill if the language threatened to keep the Senate from passing the overall bill. The provision would allow a bankruptcy judge to reduce a homeowner’s mortgage principal. “If we can’t get the votes for that, and I am hopeful we can — I am semiconfident we can — then what I’ll do is take that off [the bill] and do the other banking provisions,” Reid said at a Christian Science Monitor breakfast. Reid said he would work to keep the package intact, but raising the prospect of pulling the provision seemed to acknowledge assertions by Sen. Evan Bayh, D-Ind., and others that the cram-down bill cannot pass due to opposition from Republicans and some Democratic moderates.
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Bayh and Judiciary ranking member Arlen Specter are pushing an alternative bill that narrows the range of borrowers who could have their mortgage principal reduced. Lobbyists tracking efforts by Senate Majority Whip Durbin to drum up industry and Senate support for a measure like the House bill said talks appear stalled. Eliminating or watering down the cram-down provision would be a win for the banking industry…

So, there you have it.
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The Democratic Party is led by a faction of centrists who will use whatever power they have, constantly threatening to vote with Republicans, if liberal Democrats propose anything that actually helps ordinary people at the expense of big finance and industry.
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If liberal Democrats don’t like it, then that’s tough, they’ll get nothing, because these other kind of Democrats hold to a very important, very sacred principle when considering their vote on any legislation put before them. That principle is that every act of government that benefits ordinary people must be offset by something that equally benefits big business. If industry complains that it hurts them, then the principled next step is to make it hurt for consumers, too, that way everybody is equally represented in Congress –at least, according to this mini-party within the Democratic majority. Obviously, that’s not how liberal Democrats think.
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Now, just imagine if the Obama Administration had sent out Geithner and Goolsbee, Summers and Romer, Gibbs and Axelrod on a major media campaign to make an issue out of keeping people in their homes, and stopping the foreclosure crisis.
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Imagine if partisan Democrats, the whole tribe of Beltway PR people and operatives, had been set loose with the talking point: “This little group of bank-bought Democrats want to make it easier for banks –the very same banks who were themselves bankrupt last year– to kick people out of their homes when they can’t afford the over-priced payments!”
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If the Administration had named names, and if the House liberals’ coalition had made helpful, organized, sophisticated media noise about what was happening, and those centrist New Democrats were facing consequences, millions of of Americans would be better off today.
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Unfortunately, Obama and his Administration are New Democrats, and so they sided with their fellow mini-party members in the House and Senate, instead of doing whatever it took to fight publicly for an extremely popular policy that would have saved people from foreclosure.
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The banks themselves weren’t going to have their assets foreclosed upon, but since the Administration plan was to preserve relationships with the financial industry, so as to persuade their friends in finance to be helpful lenders –instead of demanding compliance, FDR-style– they preferred to concede to threats, and prevent “uncertainty in an already troubled market.”
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Liberal Democrats: change bankruptcy law to adjust to crazy times, so that people had more of a chance to stay in their homes.
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Centrist Democrats: “argued that greater efforts were needed to ensure that homeowners make good-faith attempts to work with their lenders”

“Because of our numbers, they figure they need to work with us,” said Rep. Charlie Melancon (D., La.), a leader of the 51-member Blue Dog group
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“There are people on the far right and left who don’t like what we’re doing; they look at us as the blockade,” Mr. Melancon said. “We look at ourselves as the balancing act between the extremes.”
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Behind the scenes, some Blue Dogs worked with another moderate bloc, the New Democrats, to win changes in the bankruptcy legislation. New Democrats tend to be business-friendly and tech-savvy, said Rep. Ellen Tauscher (D., Calif.), who leads the 67-member group.
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At a closed-door meeting of House Democrats last week, Rep. Tauscher voiced strong concerns about the legislation, warning that the initial House bill didn’t go far enough to ensure homeowners try to work with banks.

That’s one way that movement liberals, if we had the power of our numbers within the Democratic party, and a President and Administration who weren’t fighting against us (or lying to us), could have saved people from foreclosure, Rustydog.
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2) The HAMP Program
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In keeping with my brevity vows above, I should probably save 2) for another thread…

SZ:

One problem with your cram down after the crisis had hit. The loping off of principal would hit the lenders income and balance sheets. But how do you on one hand give banks TARP money for many to stay viable entities and then take away assets and income forcing yet another round of TAP money. If there isn’t a second round you end up with more banks failing with the accompanying unemployment as banks would be forced into massive layoffs.
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The arbitrary decline in principal would add further uncertainty to the housing market as it would put further pressure on housing prices. Then as more banks fell below capital requirements there would be more layoffs, followed by more cram downs and the cycle would begin again.
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Excellent post, free and right on the money! The arrogance consistently shown by those on the left is coming back to haunt them. The American public is NOT buying this progressive program of “we know what is best for you” or “your opinion is of no value” and are expressing real anger at being taken for granted by this clueless administration. You know, for a segment of our population that continually touts their self perceived superior intelligence, they really ARE dumb.

Freep’s and Earljr’s opinions are proof positive that if you repeat lies often and convincingly enough, a rabid segment of the electorate will think it’s the truth.

Carville is part of the belt way gurus that lazy reporters turn to. I was amused that during the Gulf oil disaster CNN had Carville and Matlin on daily crying over the mishandling of the clean-up. Not once did anyone question whether Carville had turned over in bed and asked Matlin whether she had ever questioned her boss (Cheney) about the gutting and mishandling of regulations for drilling. Nobody ever asked them about those secret meetings Cheney had with the energy CEOs and what had been given away.
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Sometimes the incest is so obvious.

freeinpa:
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First of all, thanks so much for reading through all of that.
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Second of all, I’d like to go home now, so I may have to answer that in detail (groan) later.
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Third of all, isn’t it interesting how you’re making the same arguments as those “socialists” Geithner and Summers in the “neoCommunist” Obama Administration?

The business community can provide real-world metaphors and pragmatic similies.

A true Bush. If George W is the shrub, what is Jeb? The twig?

It is amazing how far the right has been able to ride the wave of anger without offering any ideas of their own. The government is going to be in an even more rigorous state of paralysis than it is already, if anger is enough.

The economy is going to become dependent on the Fed. They are the only ones free to do anything.

Good job stuart. Wordy, but good none-the-less.
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First statement:
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Why should someone who has met with a crisis unexpected or not, be afforded a 2nd chance? Now I will state that a CRAM down of 2nd homes located in Vale should have never even been considered an option under as you say, “current bankruptcy law” to have the judge order a re-evaluation. Bankruptcy law in those cases in my opinion should be immediately changed.
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In both cases, as the individual chose to buy the home, 1st or 2nd home, they took upon themselves an obligation. They signed a contract. A contract in which they promised to pay back what they borrowed. Correct?
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Now they cannot fulfill that obligation. Who “bails” them out stuart? Who comes up with the money to pay back the bank for their loss in this deal? The tax payer? Or, does the bank simply have to eat the loss because someone for whatever reason fails to pay their payments?
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We go right to individual responsibility. Bankruptcy should be a last ditch and last resort option. If the person has also sold all their worldly goods at whatever value they could have gotten for them, cashed out whatever other assets they have, then and only then do I believe they should receive some type of 2nd chance in the matter. Then in order to save themselves from having to go out in the cold or to seek a homeless shelter, they could ask a judge for relief, by having the mortgage foreclosed upon and released from the debt.
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In most cases, once the major debts have been relieved, most people can then swing the payment on their home load and move forward. A few due to a total job loss perhaps, cannot even at that point make their payments, and still must either sell at a loss or simply walk away from the home.
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We are all responsible for each other in your movement liberal ideal world. Collectively we must bear the burden of bailing out each other whether we want to or not. Is that really fair stuart? Is that burden for someone else’s failures how you grow a strong economy? Will this scenario you present going to have a financial banking system which is rock solid on it’s own? Or, will your scenario cause a situation where the banks and lenders will become ever dependent on bank bailouts in order to just stay in business, in good or bad times?

Thatch.

Which parts do freeinpa and earljr have wrong, fog? Enlighten us, please.

SZ:

Go home, relax, smoke’em if you got’em

But think on this: I do no think TARP was a good idea either. Whether its banks or homeowners the losses should not have been socialized. And if my response was similar to Geithner and Obama it was the last good thought they had. They did enough damage with their intrusion into the auto and HC industries,.

We could cut spending, drastically. 30%? 40% 50% across the board? Yes?
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These options are and will be on the table. The question is will Obama go with it, or will he veto them all and bring our world crashing down right in front of us?

The whole problem with your opinion is that in reality it has been the Democrats in Washington who over the past 2 years have been fully in the back pockets of Wall Street, Big Banks, Big Labor, and the Big Auto Companies.
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Not many of the Tea Party candidates that I know of have been in the game of appeasing the Wall Streeters, nor do I expect them to cave like the Democrats have over the past 2 years to the lobbyists from said entities.
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You will have to come up with a different lie after November Pnnto

It is curious how Carville maintains his juice.
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His biggest win was the candidate but somehow he has turned that into a lifetime of “guru”.
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His defining moment was after the Howard Dean led 2006 historic gains he called for Harold Ford to replace Dean.
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Carville, and to a slightly lesser extent Begala, went stale years ago.

“In keeping with my brevity vows”
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At the end of that comment.
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I can’t help, despite our occasional disagreements, but love SZ.

“Freep’s and Earljr’s opinions are proof positive that if you repeat lies often and convincingly enough, a rabid segment of the electorate will think it’s the truth”
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No the left takes if oyu disagree with their all knowing attitude- it’s a lie. And the “facts” the left presents are al that matters.

3 examples :

1) if you kike your insurance you acan keep it.
2) HC reform will bend the cost curve and premiums will fall.
3) HC reform will lower the defict
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All three lies. All 3 repeated continually by the left and and when pointed out by the right, we were called liars.

See the real reason the left hates Fox, Limbaugh et al is not because they lie but because they call out the left for the phonies that they are.

Reread my comment Physician.
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I am agreeing with you.

“The economy is going to become dependent on the Fed. They are the only ones free to do anything”
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That is the problem. Th economy has been dependent on the Fed. Despite the lefts’ insistence that the RE bubble was Bush’s fault, I would like to point out he was President of the US and not Chairman of the Fed. Easy money and rates approaching zero added to the bubble. Now the Fed’s gun is about empty. Easy money now is just pushing on a string.
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What happened is both parties wanted the good times to go on forever. They were convinced that between the government and the Fed they could make recessions illegal.

My apologies Pnnto. You are right!! Congrats. You have now officially left the dark side, and re-entered the light.
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May Allah bless you for many days to come. May you find a 100 virgins in the afterlife at your beck and call.
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May the bird of paradise $hit in someone else’s nest, and let yours alone.
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LOL!!

Stuart, free, freedom, I loved reading this. For what it’s worth, I’d have handled the foreclosure and financial crisis by using the power of the Fed to lend to anyone to actually refinance existing mortgages as something of a great do over. I’ll spare you all the details but I was actually able to run this idea by a Fed economist who agreed it was both legal and would work but the banks and bondholders would have to take unwanted haircuts.

“We could cut spending, drastically. 30%? 40% 50% across the board”
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Across the board? You are proposing, along with the programs you find offensive, cutting the defense budget up to half?
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Or are there things that aren’t “across the board”?

“We could cut spending, drastically. 30%? 40% 50% across the board? Yes?”

You cut spending, once the economy has recovered, not before. We could also scrap the useless Bush tax cuts, devise an even better set of tax cuts for those businesses who hire people, when they hire people, and then get serious about 3 or 4 Marshall plans, where the gov’t and private sector come together to transform the economic infrastructure of the nation and create the high paying jobs and industries of the future. If America can rebuild Europe and Japan, it can rebuild itself.

Let’s get her done.

“If America can rebuild Europe and Japan, it can rebuild itself.”
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That is really well said.

Rustydog:
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Thanks for the civil, thoughtful response.
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But when you write:
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“ Is that burden for someone else’s failures how you grow a strong economy? Will this scenario you present going to have a financial banking system which is rock solid on it’s own? Or, will your scenario cause a situation where the banks and lenders will become ever dependent on bank bailouts in order to just stay in business, in good or bad times?”
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, you seem to have forgotten something:
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You asked me to “explain how a “movement Liberal” would have done anything differently,” and to tell you “How would a movement liberal have saved people from foreclosure,” didn’t you?
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You didn’t ask me to tell you the movement liberal plan for socially engineering the bailout so that it constructed a perfect, everything’s-now-fair-in-capitalism economic system sometime in the future, did you?”
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This and the previous administrations failed to prevent wave after wave of home foreclosures in the worst economic crisis in 70 years, and simply assured themselves that, as long as they slowed down the rate of foreclosure, everything would return to equilibrium forthwith. They were wrong, dead wrong, and their policies have caused un-remedied economic devastation amongst the middle class that makes this country the great, prosperous nation of hope that it should be.
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We can argue about whether folks who listened to CNBC’s Jim Kramer tell them to buy-buy-buy, or the “Lost Another Loan to Ditech” guy, or the people who bought Carleton Sheets’ “No Money Down” DVD’s deserve the same benefits as the people who just needed a new place to live, because they got pregnant at the wrong time in a bubble, or the people whose properies’ values took a nose-dive because their neighbors’ houses were foreclosed upon, or the people who did everything right, but whose jobs disappeared overnight because of financial geniuses gambling with our money. We could debate about how fair it is that property tax assessment hit homeowners at bubble values right after the bottom dropped out, so that they were bankrupted by taxes based on the ridiculous prices that their neighbors paid for homes those neighbors may have successfully flipped before getting out.
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We can argue about what’s “fair” all day.
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But you didn’t ask me about guaranteeing without a shadow of a doubt that nobody would ever get something they didn’t necessarily deserve, or about preserving the sanctity of sacred, holy mortgage contracts sold during a high-finance engineered bubble.
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You asked me what movement liberals would have done differently to prevent millions of middle class people from losing their one little piece of the American dream, Rustydog, and I told you what we would have done, had we any political influence in Washington.
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And, I submit to you, while it wouldn’t have been perfect, and some outcomes might not have been purely fair and just, it would have been a whole lot f*cking better than the job the establishment, centrist Democrats did in this fiasco of governance to which we’ve been subjected over the past two years.
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You might not agree that saving people from foreclosure is the right thing to do, but that’s how we would have saved people from foreclosure, if movement liberals had ever had our day at governing.
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Now I really must get the crap out of this office!

I like 17.4.
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If the American people really buy the idea that the reason any party can win or lose is because of how they project their respective images, then we are lost, and the American people will be fooled into believing that either America doesn’t need to rebuild itself, or that it shouldn’t cost anything to do so.
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Well, there is no such thing as a free lunch, and the truth be told in all of this is that rebuilding America will cost a LOT of money.
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So, I ask the American people, just what is important:
___The image
___What is behind the image

It’s not the message, it’s that the American public has become too stupid to govern. We’re about to see the country set back in major ways by people who want to put Republicans in power to punish Democrats for what Republicans did the last time they held power.
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Thirty years of indoctrination in nonsense dogma, and a feckless public media serving up false equivalencies and pathological bi-partisanship, too afraid and self-satisfied to call out the naked lies before them, has taken it’s final toll.

Are they stupid, Wonger? Reminds me of an exchange we had in the spring: Linky
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Inevitably, after a few more cycles, they’ll give the keys to the kingdom back to the other 1/2 of the duopoly. From abusive parent #1 back to abusive parent #2, rinse and repeat, at least until there’s an actual 3rd way (some say until we have a second party).
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Are they dumb, really? Don’t impressive pluralities think (correctly) that both parties are utterly f@cked, representing anyone’s interests but their constituencies’? Their choices are right and center right. Loyal dems seem to think the ignorant electorate is resisting a liberal message from a liberal party. If this entity or message were in existence, if there were any demonstrated liberal governance over the last few decades, I might agree with your scorn. But expecting them to clap loudly for what dems have delivered when they’ve been in power, expecting them to see the dems as dramatically better than what they’ve fleetingly replaced … not stupid at all.

Pavlovian would be too kind.

“And, I submit to you, while it wouldn’t have been perfect, and some outcomes might not have been purely fair and just, it would have been a whole lot f*cking better than the job the establishment, centrist Democrats did in this fiasco of governance to which we’ve been subjected over the past two years.”

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Fair enough stuart. Part of me to a certain degree, agrees with you, and in the perfect world there is a Glenda the Good Witch who will float in on her bubble to save the day. But, the other part of me which also went through a bad economic time and I had to also declare bankruptcy in order to save my home but lost everything else says, “well, you took a gamble buddy, and you lost. Now you have to pull yourself up by your bootstraps and dig yourself out of this hole you made”. But, I learned INVALUABLE lessons through it all and could never have paid enough money to someone to have simply learned it out of some book.
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That is the beauty of this country. We can make mistakes, and we can grab onto those bootstraps if we chose to do so and pull ourselves up out of that hole we dug. We can learn from mistakes, and know how great the feeling is that we finally did make it on our own.
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Have a good night stuart. I will give it more thought.

“The American public is too stupid to govern” Thank you for proving our point, in spades, sheperd. It is exactly THIS kind of arrogance that spawned the tea party and sent the progressives into a fatal death spiral. Who needs slick ad campaigns? A daily dose of your poignant wisdom is enough to motivate anyone to vote your viewpoint out of office. Twenty one months of sheperd and Obama….enough to upset the strongest gastrointestinal system. The best recommended treatment? Purge it!

“But expecting them to clap loudly for what dems have delivered when they’ve been in power, expecting them to see the dems as dramatically better than what they’ve fleetingly replaced … not stupid at all.”
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Do you see me clapping? They just have to choose not too get kicked in the nads again by the same people who always kick them in the nads whenever they’re stupid enough to give them a chance to kick them in the nads.
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You can b!tch about the ponies the Democrats didn’t deliver until the cows come home but nothing could be less relevant to the question of whether and whom to vote for. Republican “conservatives” without the counter-weight of progressives, both inside and outside of the Congress, driven by the bloodlust of the slobbering base, will “take this country back” in ways you quite clearly haven’t thought very seriously about. Nothing good will come of it.

I’d only add that Europeans and the Japanese did a wee bit of work of their own in rebuilding their war-ravaged nations.
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And PNNTO, my sympathies.

“in ways you quite clearly haven’t thought very seriously about”
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The only possible way to respond to that is f@ck off.
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Listen, what you’re advocating is the status quo. DLC (i.e. republican) ascent periodically replacing the slightly more conservative party. Without consequences for their misgovernance, without any force in American society to address the fact that the oligarchs own both parties, lock, stock and barrel … all you’re doing in the ballot box is, how would you put it, kicking yourself in the scrotum?
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If you honestly think America’s looming collapse can be averted by playing the established game, you may want to consider other evangelical messages.
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There’s a battle gagging to be fought in America, but too many of its best citizens are misdirecting their energies.

IOZ:

“As liberal commenters scratch their heads over why the Democrats fail to articulate the case for their own perpetual stewardship of all good things here on this green earth forever and ever, praise be, the real mechanism of the factional duopoly is perfectly plain. Party-in-power tradeoffs lend the illusion of democratic legitimacy, and meanwhile, once more for the cheap seats: Republicans drive the empire; Democrats consolidate and rationalize what their partners have wrought. George Bush expands the global gulag; Barack Obama writes the employee handbook. The Republicans promise billions to the banks; the Democrats do the accounting. It’s not a competition; it’s a partnership.

But it’s a silent partnership, and guys like Tomasky serve an important function. By emphasizing falsely differing interests on either side, they obscure the fundamental collaboration at work. It’s a strategy as old as business. Two secret partners negotiate from opposite sides against the poor suckers in the middle, who think they’re going to get a good deal playing one side against the other, but who only get played instead.”

http://whoisioz.blogspot.com/2010/10/sic-semper-alanis.html

stuart:
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You hit the nail on the with this statement:

But you didn’t ask me about guaranteeing without a shadow of a doubt that nobody would ever get something they didn’t necessarily deserve, or about preserving the sanctity of sacred, holy mortgage contracts sold during a high-finance engineered bubble.”

Therein lies the difference between the left and right. The right has fits worrying about whether someone, somewhere, is getting something that they did not deserve.
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Interesting that the term “deserve” does not enter into statements like this:

If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?

“If you honestly think America’s looming collapse can be averted by playing the established game, you may want to consider other evangelical messages.”
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It certainly won’t be averted by the game you’re playing. If that’s anything other than self-destructive rage and revenge, I haven’t the faintest idea what it is.

“The whole problem with your opinion is that in reality it has been the Democrats in Washington who over the past 2 years have been fully in the back pockets of Wall Street, Big Banks, Big Labor, and the Big Auto Companies.
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Not many of the Tea Party candidates that I know of have been in the game of appeasing the Wall Streeters, nor do I expect them to cave like the Democrats have over the past 2 years to the lobbyists from said entities.”

Rusty, you may or may not be right about Tea Partyers being in the game to please Wall Streeters. The problem is that mainstream Republicans are even more in bed with Wall Streeters than the Democrats. Look for Wall Street to pore all sorts of cash into the hands of the Republican party, especially if they capture the House this fall.

As far as the newly elected Tea Partyers, once they are in Congress, they will grow even more disillusioned with how Washington works and there won’t be enough of them to change anything.

You are, of course, correct JC.
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And thanks. I forget how painful the playoffs are.

“I’d only add that Europeans and the Japanese did a wee bit of work of their own in rebuilding their war-ravaged nations.”

I guess they deserve a little credit too.

Thanks Paul.

“If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?”

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Ahh…..Charity. Yes. I whole-heartedly agree with you. We should all at least make the attempt at charity in our lives.
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Again as you point out, “the difference between those on the right and left” comes down to how we should provide for the needs of others.
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Whereas the left feel it is the responsibility of the government to provide for those needs, a “collective” responsibility to provide for those in need. For the government to determine exactly how much you should give, and then determine who it is that will benefit from the giving. A one-sized shoe fits all remedy for the needy. Now I will say there are times when this is the best approach, using Katrina or other national disasters as the example, when it is the government which is better prepared to handle the needs of those who are in need. But, I also see it as a time when we can open our wallets even wider, to give even more than what is required of us through our government or taxes.
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The right believes when there are people in need, we should individually give what we personally can afford to give based on how we make that determination. Yes, there may be greedy people who would not contribute and just sit back and let someone else do all the giving in these cases, but I also believe in the here-after, they shall have to atone for all of their deeds and actions during their lifetime. As the clock ticks away in our lives, we shall eventually be judged upon how we lived our lives in this specific area. How we helped our fellow man along the way. What we did to contribute to our society or to other individuals. Some give material things which they do not need anymore. Some give their time. Some merely open their wallets and give money. All of it is charity. All of it is given freely, and without any strings attached. All of it provides a return to the giver, 10 fold, in most cases or at least that has been the case for me over my lifetime thus far.
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So in summary, it is as Barack Obama has defined it on so many occasions, “collective salvation” versus individual salvation. Two very distinct paths we can take in life to hopefully meet the needs of those who are without, or want assistance.

Rusty & Stuart: It has been a pleasure to read (and read and read…) your informative and thoughtful exchange.
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::golf clap::

“We could also scrap the useless Bush tax cuts, devise an even better set of tax cuts for those businesses who hire people, when they hire people, and then get serious about 3 or 4 Marshall plans, where the gov’t and private sector come together to transform the economic infrastructure of the nation and create the high paying jobs and industries of the future.”
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What will it take for the left to finally come to the conclusion that using the tax system to help or more precisely punish behavior is the worst possible solution to making an economy grow. If the government want to encourage growth the best solution is to make the playing field level and that means equal opportunity not equal outcome. Legislate and regulate without trying to determine a winner and a loser.
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There is nothing more harmful than legislation done with the intent to “fix’ an industry or problem which in turn creates another half dozen problems. One needs to look no further than HC reform. Trying to legislate 16% of the economy will hav eno good end regardless of the intentions. We can go industry by industry and find similar results although not on the scale of HC. This fantasy that incomes and benefits and standards of living go in on direction only is foolish. The only notion that may be more foolish is that the government can fix it.

fhmadvocat,
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You speak with a lot of wisdom. I don’t always agree with you but I always respect what you have to say.
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Stuart and Newfreedom,
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Thanks for the informative discussion. We need more discussions like this.

From the lurkers’ gallery, I too would like to add my thanks for Stuart and Rusty’s thoughtful discussion. This — this — is what we need: Where do we move the slider on the incredibly complicated grayscale between community and individual responsibility? And how do we adjust it as our culture responds? I don’t know, but I learn from back and forth like this.

“Who wouldn’t want to go back to 6 or 8 years ago?”

http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2008/12/10/forgive-and-forgetforget/

I for one, bokeh9, and I am sure stuart as well thank you for your kind words and encouragement.
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In the past we have had many discussions just like this, which have been very civil, and presents both sides of the coin so to speak.
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However, some folks then decided it was more fun (I think) to begin shouting out “RACIST” at the tops of the lungs, or used other non-productive words to either make fun of the comment, or the individual specifically who made the comment. (I will say that the making “fun” of comments, when clearly defined as “snark” can be appropriate at times, but for the most part I believe we should reserve it for the “500″ or “1000″ words posts. Have at it, if that is the case).
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I am also willing to again debate in a civil manner. To respect opinions, but also challenge someone without the 3rd grade name calling which has polluted this blog for many months now.
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I am also hoping we can join forces to speak to and also challenge the writers, bloggers, and journalists here in the swamp to write informative posts, rather than the sleazy tabloid-like gotcha posts we have seen volumes written on. Until we challenge them each and every time, they will continue to write garbage about both sides.
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Thanks also to everyone else who have made positive comments.

post 1.1 Cheney had nothing to do with “gutting or mishandling regulations for drilling”. That statement (lie) shows a complete and total ignorance of how the US government works. Drilling has been forced out into the deep Gulf by environmental wackos/leftists aka Democrats. Now we see that every country in the world except for the USA will be drilling in the Gulf. I lbe so happy for America when we soundly defeat the anti-American neocommunists in this country.

post 1.1 Cheney had nothing to do with “gutting or mishandling regulations for drilling”. That statement (lie) shows a complete and total ignorance of how the US government works. Drilling has been forced out into the deep Gulf by environmental wackos/leftists aka Democrats. Now we see that every country in the world except for the USA will be drilling in the Gulf. I will be so happy for America when we soundly defeat the anti-American neocommunists in this country.

An interesting thread.
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I would agree that the Bankruptcy laws ought to be fair and equitable across all the Demographics.
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Who loses what is the hard part. One one hand there are those who purchased a home with the idea of an investment rather then a home. They saw the prices rising and believed it would never end. There were the bankers who basically saw the same thing and lost all common sense. Then there are those who just wanted a home and purchased as much home or more then they thought they could; many pushed to do so by their Realtor and the bankers turning a blind eye, who should have known better. The there are those who just got caught, lost jobs, or had other unforeseen circumstances.
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I just do not see how it is that I should worry about the banker who’s job it is to know better. Why should any law favor them?

I knew Tea Party people were right-wing nuts who liked to play dress-up, but this seems to be taking those two interests a little too much:

The Atlantic’s Josh Green reports that millionaire businessman Rich Iott, the Republican nominee challenging Rep. Marcy Kaptur (D) in Ohio’s Ninth District, has an unusual hobby: He likes to pretend he’s a Nazi.
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Iott, a tea party-backed candidate, spent time fighting another battle before he hit the campaign trail against Kaptur as a member of the 5th SS Wiking Panzer Division, a group of Ohio World War II reenactors.
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According to their website, the Wikings strive to “salute” the “idealists” from occupied northern Europe who saw the Third Reich as “the protector of personal freedom and their very way of life” and signed up to fight for the Wermacht and “gave their lives for their loved ones and a basic desire to be free.”

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/10/ohio-tea-partier-spent-weekends-playing-nazi-games.php?ref=fpa

Frankly the Christine O’Donnell stuff is getting tiresome. I don’t care that she thinks you shouldn’t masterbate.
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Frankly, you should watch the video before commenting on it. O’Donnell is on there for one second in a minute long video.

Great comment allthings: Now to hopefully answer your question;
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I just do not see how it is that I should worry about the banker who’s job it is to know better. Why should any law favor them?

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You shouldn’t have to worry about the banker, and nor should any other tax payer. I would fully agree.
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In a true, Free Market, I believe the market itself would be the judge rather than a Bankruptcy Judge or a Government Official who may decide to give the banker a tax-payer bailout. The other entity which would also determine the success or failure of the banker would be his investor, or the entity which bought the bankers packaged loans which are sold on the secondary market. Freddie and Fannie for the most part today.
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If I make poor business decisions such as accepting applications for loans which I knew full well the applicant could not pay for the monthly mortgage, especially during bad times, then I should 1. Eat the loss if the person defaulted on the loan. 2. Go out of business if I had too many people defaulting on the loan.
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Once upon a time, the late 1970′s and 1980′s I “dabbled” in Real Estate, as an investor as well as selling Real Estate. During that time buyers who applied for a mortgage went through an extensive approval process which took nearly 2 months on average to qualify. Everything with the exception of their underwear size was checked by the lender.
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Then in the early 1990′s to about 2004 we saw the gradual loosing of lending regulations loosen by the two biggest mortgage buyers, Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae. More and more people began to qualify, and the time to check out the qualifications of the buyers continually decreased to a point where recently before the bubble burst, most people could get a mortgage approval within days, some within hours depending on the type of mortgage they applied for and how much money they had on the line as a down payment.
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But, after the mortgages are packaged and sold, the originator of the loan lost most if not all responsibility for the loan. Freddie and Fannie were allowed by our government to take on the full responsibility of those loans. Barney Frank and Chris Dodd saw to it that Freddie and Fannie (now us the tax payer) is ultimately left with the bag. The bag full of bad mortgages. This really has me mad and angry. And, I hold mainly Frank and Dodd responsible, but also George Bush II as well.
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These were very poor decisions, and they had no right what-so-ever to put me as a tax payer in this position. Not to say in the least anyone who was naive and got one of the loans.
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This is where a person can argue Government regulations were deregulated and the biggest proponents in my mind were the two main culprits, Democrats Dodd and Frank. Barney to this day will say that Freddie and Fannie are stable, and denies any culpability in what I believe is one of the greatest crimes of all time.
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Does that make sense?

Their recruitment video. Hilarious.
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DID NJ DEMOCRATS PLANT A FAKE TEA PARTY CANDIDATE IN CONGRESSIONAL RACE?

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(AP) — A New Jersey Republican congressional candidate criticized his Democratic opponent Friday amid mounting evidence that Democratic officials planted a tea party candidate in the race to siphon off conservative votes.
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“My opponent, John Adler, represents everything that is wrong with politics in our country today,” Republican Jon Runyan said. “I would ask for an apology. But frankly, an apology from someone like Congressman Adler would be so meaningless that it’s not worth seeking.”
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He spoke at a news conference as Adler, a first-term Democratic lawmaker, and his campaign remained mum about a report in the Courier-Post of Cherry Hill in which Democratic operatives speaking on the condition of anonymity confirmed what Republicans have believed for months: That tea-party candidate Peter DeStefano was put on the ballot by Democrats.
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The operatives said a county Democratic employee is running at least the Web elements of DeStefano’s campaign.
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Tea party organizations, which have denounced DeStefano since he entered the race in June, called on him Friday to quit. About 50 tea party activists gathered in protest outside a restaurant in Medford where DeStefano had scheduled a fundraiser Friday night.
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http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_PLANT_CANDIDATE?SITE=WIJAN&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2010-10-08-23-40-41

“I knew Tea Party people were right-wing nuts who liked to play dress-up, but this seems to be taking those two interests a little too much:”

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Well the whole problem with your statement as usual, kevin is that this is a lie.
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Iott is not endorsed by the Tea Party or a member as a matter of fact of any Tea Party Group. The only reference to the Tea Party you can find is in the original Atlantic article which states, “the Republican nominee for Congress from Ohio’s 9th District, and a Tea Party favorite”.
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Perhaps you could come up with a site which actually has endorsed this Candidate. Do you have a National Tea Party site or even a local tea party group and their site which has endorsed him?
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Even in Iotts own website there is no mention of the Tea Party. That seems odd, no?
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It couldn’t be that simply referencing the Tea Party in the TPM and Atlantic articles that they were mistaken could they kevie?
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Now in New Jersey, we do have a candidate who has portrayed himself as a “Tea Party” candidate, but in fact is really a plant. See my post at 25 for more details.
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I wonder if erroneous information like this is posted, that I could say “Barack Obama was not really born in this country, he was born in Kenya. He is not qualified to be President of the United States, he should be impeached immediately”. Now that would also be inaccurate and un-sourced information, right kevin?

You would hope these would be message problems for the Republicans. However, they would not get headline status here.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/09/28/sharron-angle-health-care_n_742234.html
Sharon Angle and her husband are on public health care plans.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/akmuckraker/joe-the-debtor-miller-owe_b_755964.html
Mr. fiscal responsibility, Joe Miller, owes 10s of thousands in debt.
This after having his wife on his payroll as a judge.
Accepting an agricultural subsidy.
His wife on unemployment insurance.
Gaming the system to get a cheaper hunting license.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/10/07/joe-miller-health-care-federal-government_n_755188.html
Also, Joe admits to talking federal health care from the government through medicaid and schip.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/10/christine-odonnell-fibs-says-passion-of-the-christ-was-nonprofit-video.php
Another lie by O’Donnell about non-non-profit she worked for.

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/
My favorite tea partier is a nazi reenactor on weekends. The SS no less.

These are only a few tea party candidates hypocrisies and lies. There are too many to list. Of course, being led by that Christian, righteous (no gay or single sexually active women teachers) Jim DeMint does not afford the Republicans the best candidates.
Oh, and don’t forget the thug Palidino who sent out racist and pornographic e-mails.
What a bunch. I almost hope the do start their own party. Imagine their platform and their convention. Yikes.
By the way, don’t go to Frankford, Texas. Sharon Angle says they have succumb to Sharia law. It is a town that does not exist.
http://dallasmorningviewsblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2010/10/shaira-law-in-f.html

Gee, you “witless” individuals as Joe Klein has so adeptly describe us all are keeping me busy today refuting all of your lies from your far left liberal extremist website, like TPM and Huffington Post.
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First let’s give a little lesson on Government Employees Insurance Program.
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“The program was created in 1960. Employer sponsorship of health insurance in the United States became prevalent during World War II, as one of the few ways by which employers could escape wage and price control limitations on employee wages

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The government originally proposed a system that would revolve around a dominant government-directed plan, but unions and employee associations, which had sponsored their own plans, protested and reflecting the political pressure they brought the Congress modified the Executive Branch proposal and all existing plans were “grandfathered” into the program.[2] Thus, through what was essentially a historical accident and a political compromise, a system of competition among health plans driven by consumer choices was created

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Now in my investigation what this means is that employees of the Government, even those who have retired from the Government can select a health plan from one of the PRIVATE insurance companies which is overseen by the Government. Isn’t that right, april2563?
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Now Mr Angle it seems is a retired employee of the Federal Government. Is that right april2563?
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In as much, as a retiree he is afforded the ability to continue his PRIVATE health insurance plan. He is also allowed to put his spouse, the candidate, Sharon Angle on the same plan if he chooses to do so.
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So as a benefit from his job, he continues to receive this same benefit and for his family. Through a private health insurance company.
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Where again is the problem here?
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Are you advocating anyone against the current ObamaCare should not be able to get into a Government sponsored or backed insurance company healthcare plan even if they qualify? Do you and the rest of the liberals believe if a Senior who qualifies for Medicare, but does not agree with ObamaCare should be thrown off or out of Medicare? If so, that would seem to me that you hate Seniors too april2563. Do I have that right?

The reactionaries who post here can now jump up and down and point to the wicked libtards and their sins without addressing any of the above hypocrisies and reenforcing their own.

Obama’s Labor Secretary is a RACIST.
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http://www.theblaze.com/stories/obamas-latina-labor-secretary-tells-la-raza-prioritizing-workforce-will-especially-help-our-people/

Obama Administration approves the FBI to start to “tag” cars with devices to track your every move.
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http://www.theblaze.com/stories/obamas-latina-labor-secretary-tells-la-raza-prioritizing-workforce-will-especially-help-our-people/

Democrats and Liberals plant FAKE Tea Party Candidate in New Jersey Congressional race.
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http://www.theblaze.com/stories/report-dems-planted-nj-tea-party-house-candidate/

“Do you have a National Tea Party site or even a local tea party group and their site which has endorsed him?”
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That’s a fair question.
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Here he is on July 3rd accepting their endorsement.
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http://wn.com/tea_party+iott

“Flocabulary” the new message from far left liberals who have infested our schools.
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The history program is called Flocabulary, and it compares Andrew Jackson to Adolf Hitler and refers to Founder James Madison as an “old dead white guy.” It has made its way into the Oklahoma City public school district, where it was at lest partially paid for using federal funds. And now, after numerous complaints from teachers over the curriculum’s language, the district is reconsidering using the rap and hip-hop program to teach history to at-risk students.

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http://www.theblaze.com/stories/old-dead-white-men-controversial-okla-history-cirriculum-paid-for-with-federal-funds/

“What will it take for the left to finally come to the conclusion that using the tax system to help or more precisely punish behavior is the worst possible solution to making an economy grow.”
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Thanks for agreeing the Bush tax cuts are useless. However, who is it on the liberal side that is advocating that tax cuts, and tax cuts only, are the way to create growth? I also don’t know how one is playing favorites by opening up new industries, or transforming existing ones, inviting the private sector to join in and compete for all the spin off opportunities that are opened up.

How could you have ever predicted that apr?

Fair enough Paul, it does look like to me that the local Tea Party group in Perrysburg Ohio has backed Iott.
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The beauty of the Tea Party movement is that local groups can back whatever candidate they feel represent their own local interests.
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I believe Mr Iott’s choice to be part of the “re-enactment” brigade of a WWII group and choice to be a Nazi soldier in these re-enactments was very poor. Especially if he thought he would one day run for a public office.
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But, I guess the question which lies in my mind is should we condemn all aspects of history, bury it so deep we forget about what happened, even the atrocities? Should all movies, portrayals or anything else which represents the Nazi Party be expunged from the public record?
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I do believe I read where Iott has declared the acts and actions of the Nazis during WWII were vile and inexcusable. He represents his activities in this group as a means to re-enact what occurred during WWII, stating “someone has to be the Nazis” whenever they act out their “plays”.
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Perhaps you can find other atrocious things Mr Iott has done in his past which would automatically define him as “I knew Tea Party people were right-wing nuts who liked to play dress-up, but this seems to be taking those two interests a little too much”, which also in my opinion is just babble with no basis for any credibility or tells the entire story. It just merely takes the situation completely out of context which has been shown on many many occasions done by TPM and Atlantic websites to LOOK bad, when in fact it is totally the opposite of what happened or was the intent of the action.
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Ultimately it will be up to the voters in the 9th District of Ohio who will decide and lay judgment on these two candidates.

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Happy 70th Birthday John Lennon!!!
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A song dedicated to our right wing friends.
“Gimme Some Truth”

I wonder if there are any other sorta “strange” Congressmen in Ohio?
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http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/09/republicans-recruiting-street-people-green-party-candidates/
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How about those homeless Green Party candidates? This is a tactic the Reps have been using for years. Not really ethical for anyone. Remember, they supported Nadir as a Green candidate to upset the Dems.
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Not nice or ethical if done by any party, don’t you think?

Black Tea Party Members Face Racism — From Liberals
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http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/black-tea-party-members-face-racism-from-liberals/blog-298941/

Hmm, referring to Andrew Jackson, a democrat, as Adolph Hitler. Agreed, not nice. There was that pesky genocide against Native Americans but there are better ways to historically address it.
However, everyday on hate talk radio and Fox news President Obama and other Dems are accused of being Hitlers, Gobbels, Maos, Lenins, Marxists, Nazis.
We can agree this isn’t nice when done by anyone?

Paul, I am having a boring day. I am so sick of the hypocrisy of the TPer and the Republicans that support them. Also, I rarely interact with NewRusty, freeper and the other reactionaries on this site. But, today I am going to indulge myself.

Iott may pretend that he’s a Nazi but Barry O. does not pretend that his goal is failure and downfall of the United States. He and all of his friends (e.g. Bill Ayers), family members (e.g. Michelle) and staff members (e.g. Elizabeth Warren) have a deep hatred for the United States. His (and the rest of the liberal America haters) ultimate goal is for the destruction of the United States. While he and the rest are doing everything they can to achieve this fortunately real Americans are taking back the country this November.

Stereotyping and racist remarks are not nice whomever is doing it, agreed?

Also, NewRusty, I suggest you return to the article and read how Sharon Angle’s and her husband’s health care is supported. It is funded like SS.
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I don’t mind her and her husband getting the coverage. Like John Lennon said, “Gimme Some Truth”.

By the way NewRusty, I find it a great badge of honor being called “witless” and don’t forget “sordid” by Joe Klein.

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Working Class Hero
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Lennon
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“As soon as you are born they make you feel small.”

“Perhaps you can find other atrocious things Mr Iott has done in his past which would automatically define him as “I knew Tea Party people were right-wing nuts who liked to play dress-up, but this seems to be taking those two interests a little too much”
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I’m unsure of your position on the Civil Rights Act but maybe this.

“Republican/Tea Party congressional candidate Rich Iott, in a televised debate this evening, refused to support renewal of the landmark 1964 Civil Rights Act. (Transcript below.) His opponent, incumbent Democrat Marcy Kaptur (OH-9), said in response: “I cannot believe that my opponent didn’t say he supports the Civil Rights Act of 1964.”
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http://glasscityjungle.com/2010/09/iott-on-1964-civil-rights-act-question-focus-of-kaptur-release/

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Imagine
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Lennon
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Happy Birthday John.

Ok I think I am done. Thanks for listening.

You may be unsure of someone’s position on the Civil Rights Act but I’m certain of Barry’s position on the United States. To quote his 3 most trusted alliies and friends:
1 – Michelle – “This is the first time in my adult life that I am really proud of my country
2 – His father figure of over 20 years and mentore – “God damn America”
3 – His best friend -”Everything was absoultely ideal on the day I bombed the Pentagon”

Barry might have said them himself as he feels the same way about the United States. It’s no wonder why he is so adored by the liberal America haters.

“Thanks for agreeing the Bush tax cuts are useless. However, who is it on the liberal side that is advocating that tax cuts”
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I will take your response as a misunderstanding of what I said instead of it being sheer idiocy. Using the tax code for credit if you hire someone here, or penalizing if you hire someone there or taxing capital gains at different rates, or any other version where the government is trying to influence behavior is counterproductive. In most instances the upper income or corporations will find a way to legally move around the code. It is done time and time again. Invariably capital gets re-allocated. Companies will spend to increase productivity rather than hire or an individuals will hold investments which then is not available to be spent on goods and services. Fairness is in the eye of the beholder.

A statement that tax cuts are useless is only incorrect but shows a deep ignorance of economics. The assumption that the people in the upper tax brackets are the same folks year in and year out is static nonsense. Someone could earn 200,000 one year on commissions or a strong bonus year and yet be classified as rich. The tax code is set up to be nothing more than special interests collecting money from other folks and it is not limited to the rich.
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Having the government involved in industries is a recipe for disaster. The job of the government is to provide equal opportunity and basis of law. To have the government pick winners and losers undermines growth and hinders investment. It is a simple concept to see that regulated industries like utilities have lower growth rates while technology enjoys high growth rates, solid profitability and plentiful jobs. A quick review of the Post Office or Amtrak demonstrates the poor economics of government run businesses.

“”The American public is too stupid to govern”
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earljr1: You are precisely correct. The left continually believes that if the public disagrees with what they think to be brilliant they must be stupid. It never occurs to them that in fact the philosophy they espouse may be what is really stupid.
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The arrogance never ceases to amaze me.

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One more.
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Wiking
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Hilarious recruitment Video from TPer Lott’s reenactment group. No wonder they lost Russia.
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By the way, he has been scrubbed as one of the “Young Guns”. I don’t know why. He obviously has his own gun.

“Mr. fiscal responsibility, Joe Miller, owes 10s of thousands in debt.”
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This statement is stupidity on steroids. Every candidate borrows money to run a campaign. How much do the Clintons still owe? Most of the money he owes to himself. How much did Frenchy get from the Heinz fortune to run?
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Just say you hate Republicans. It takes less space and is certainly closer to the truth than the twisted posts you try to rationalize for the same end.

apr:

Still using “your crook is worst than ours” defense?

I will admit that Iott does not represent the type of character or values I would want to pick as a candidate or endorse. I am also guessing you may, MAY say the same thing about Kucinnich, but I could be wrong.
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Thankfully, one thing Ohioans have is a choice, albeit very poor choices on both sides Republican or Democrat in the 9th District of Ohio.
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But, to label all Tea Party folks or even all Tea Party candidates as basically nuts is merely the pot calling the kettle black. I can find just as many wackjobs who are running, who are incumbents, and various ones within all three of the groups, Republicans, Democrats, and Tea Party. Good ‘ol Alvin Green also shakes out as not that desirable either.
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Hopefully overall, the American voters can pick and choose the right people to go to Washington for a change. Tea Party or not, I am still not that excited about any of the options anywhere in the various races. We are still picking the lesser of two evils, and that goes for both major parties combined.

NFL,
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“Flox – midterms = a chance for the Republicans to lie, cheat and steal their way into power/keep power”.
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Let He Who is Without Sin Cast the First Stone.
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If you can set Partisanship aside for a moment, both sides are equally guilty of the abuses that most Politicians use.
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Both Republicans and Democrats take comments and video clips out of context and try to gain an advantage over their competition. The end results are lies based on a partial truth which is still a lie.
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90% of politicians and the Media do this which means the public doesn’t get accurate information on which to base its decisions.
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It is grossly unfair and partisan for one side to blame the other side for these abuses. Only a partisan with blinders on believes this is only a problem for the other side.
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Wake up and smell reality.
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I wish this was not reality but it is.

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Who on this site has defended Alvin Greene.
Yet, I see defenses of TPers all the time no matter how far they go.
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Though Kucinich may have seen a UFO, I don’t equate him with a Nazi reenactor at all. He has actually proposed legislation that I agree with but my tepid Dem party will not support. And, I happen to think that Marcie Kaptur is a great liberal voice.
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New, my whole life I have voted for the lesser of 2 evils. Except for (watch out) George McGovern. It just seems the evil gets more evil as we become more of an olicharchy.
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I don’t think all TPers are crazy. I actually agree with some of their populist beliefs. However, the people they have promoted to be their standard bearers are all nuts or really establishment Reps (Rubio).

Derek,
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It’s not the far right, it’s mainstream America that has rejected Progressivism and will vote for Republicans to illustrate their desire for politicians with mainstream values.
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Progressives are toast in November.

“Having the government involved in industries is a recipe for disaster. The job of the government is to provide equal opportunity and basis of law. To have the government pick winners and losers undermines growth and hinders investment.”

Who were the winners and losers the government picked when they set up ARPA?

Apr,
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If you’re sick now wait until November 2. Do you really have no life other than reading all those LW Websites and Medias? You have to know that they are extremely biased sources of information.
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You really should find something else to do. You need a life outside of this fantasy life you have built.

That “Wiking” group isn’t just any Nazi unit, it’s one that’s emulating the einsatzgruppen, special SS units that followed behind the combat troops on the Eastern Front to execute “undesirables” (Jews, gays, the mentally handicapped, Slavs, Poles, gypsies) and deserters. What a lovely fellow.

On the subject of foreclosures, Thanks SZ and Newfree, for your comments.
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On “strategic default”, Jon Stewart points out the hypocrisy of the mortgage lenders.
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http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-october-7-2010/foreclosure-crisis

Actually, the vid on “strategic default” is this one..
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http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-october-7-2010/mortgage-bankers-association-strategic-default

38 – maverick, digby led with the Stewart link, then wrote:

http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/

It’s good that Jon Stewart is on this story, but it’s kind of sad that in his zeal to “restore sanity” he failed to see something very important about how this story finally came to the attention of the mainstream. A smart friend of mine sent this to me last night that I think is the first positive message that has real salience in this current election:

A lot of people are trying to say that all politicians are the same, that your vote doesn’t matter. Well, let’s look at the evidence. In the last month, here are some news stories about politicians.

Democrat Alan Grayson Calls for Foreclosure Moratorium Democrat Ohio Secretary of State Attacks Foreclosure Fraud President Obama Pocket Vetos Pro-Bank Bill That Would Increase Foreclosures
Democrat Harry Reid Calls for Foreclosure Moratorium

Democrat Nancy Pelosi, California Democrats Calls for Investigations of Foreclosure Fraud Democrat John Conyers and Carolyn Kilpatrick Call for Foreclosure Freeze Democrat Ohio Attorney General Attacks Foreclosure Fraud, Sues GMAC Democrat Illinois Attorney General Asks for Foreclosure Halt in Illinois Democrat Maxine Waters Calls for a Foreclosure Freeze Democrats Alan Grayson, Barney Frank, and Corrine Brown Call for Fannie to Stop Working with Foreclosure ‘Mills’ Being Investigated for Fraud Democrat Earl Blumenaur Asks for a Foreclosure Freeze in Oregon Democrat Jeff Merkley Calls for a Special Investigator for Foreclosure Fraud Democrats Luis Gutierrez and Dennis Moore Call for Investigations of Bailout Recipients Engaging in Foreclosure Fraud Democrat Attorney General in California Asks for Foreclosure Halt Democrat Attorney General in Massachusetts Asks for Foreclosure Halt

And on and on and on….

Notice a pattern here? If not, let me give you another hint.

Republican Richard Shelby Tries to Weaken Rules, Kicks Regulators

I wonder why banks and corporations are spending $5 billion on this election, nearly all of that for Republicans.

Save your home. Vote Democratic.

In the Democracy Corps memo I posted about a couple of days ago, it was clear that people don’t want to hear about who’s to blame for any of this. They aren’t in the mood. What they are looking for is a sign that somebody, somewhere, is doing something to fix the problems.

This is the clearest example I’ve seen of the difference between the two parties in dealing with the ongoing economic crisis. Democrats like Grayson and Franken and even the leadership all called for action the minute this scandal bubbled up. The Republicans — crickets. Their first instinct is always to protect the fraud merchants and the Big Money Boyz, no matter what. They truly don’t care — indeed, they think the homeowners are getting what they deserve: last night that zombie Ralph Reed arose from his shallow political grave and appeared on CNN parroting the old tropes about Fannie and Freddie lending to undeserving black people and ruining everything for the rest of us.

The Dems are far from blameless and it’s true that the owners exert outsized influence over both the parties. But in situations like this you can see a clear distinction between the moral and ethical impulses that make a politician — and a voter — choose one party over another.

Well look Rusty, when I bought my home back in 1975 I was allowed to purchase a house which payments could not exceed 25% of my income Last I heard that was up to 33%. I have never heard a banker complain.
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When the housing bust came and the prices fell people suddenly found themselves underwater owing more then the house was worth. They had refinanced, some taking out their equity at the same time, once they were aware of what happened they stopped spending and lost their jobs.
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Bankers, Rusty, decided what the house was worth, how much they would lend to whom. Back in 1999 I was reading about the coming housing bust, Greenspan talked about for years, warned about it, but …………..?

With all due respect, allthings. Back in 1975 as you so correctly state, one could use the “average rule” that a house payment could not exceed 25% of your total income, wages + other income. But, that was just an average they used. The real qualifications came down to how much you owed in all bills, monthly expenses and your credit rating. After these amounts were added, the housing payment could not on average exceed 25% of your total monthly income. Most lenders knew that once the buyer was qualified they would then go out and buy new cars, run up credit cards again, buy boats, etc. As a Real Estate Agent, I would also tell my buyers that in bad times you do not want your home mortgage to exceed 25% of your monthly income in case of bad economic times. At that time also or shortly after, interest rates were around 20% as well.
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That was exactly what I meant by the Freddie and Fannie problem where Dodd and Frank had the regulations loosened, and to qualify especially near the end of the period up until the housing bubble busted, you basically only needed to prove you were 1. Alive 2. Breathing.
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I heard from several of my Real Estate and old lender friends that even income no longer was the major factor in making the decision as to whether a person qualified or not. All they had to do was prove they had a “Job”. Even credit scores were tossed out by Dodd and Frank.
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The reasoning and rationale of Dodd and Frank, “so lower income people could afford to buy homes”. In other words their Democrat base.

Imagine there’s no heaven
It’s easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky

I hear you rusty but, I do not buy your premise that it comes down to two men.
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For all the talk about how big government is, how it is incapable of making a decision, of accomplishing anything, you ask me to believe that it was the fault of two men. That two men deregulated the housing, banking industry, regulations that the GOP oppose to begin with, causing the housing crash? That two men created derivatives? That Fannie and Freddie caused, BOA, Chase, JP Morgan, etc. to collapse?
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Why not just blame the State of CT? It is a little over simplified.

“Who were the winners and losers the government picked when they set up ARPA?”

Winners
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IRS building slated to be closed gets $117 million makeover
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Corp of Engineers gets $21,000 for mascot uniforms
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Exit polling in Africa $233,000
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Study Costa Rica Rainforests $564,000
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Recoverign lobster pots $700,000 which worked out to $175 to recover while buying new $20
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Signs telling you about money spent
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Studying fossils in Argentina $1.7 million
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Bike paths on obsolete bridge with crumbling roads (not fixed) over $7 million
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$2 miil for firehouse for town without fireman
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$255 mil in SBA loans that SBA expects 60% default rate.
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Losers— The American People
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$504 million in first time home owners credit
Amtrak losing $32/passenger gets $1.3 billion
Half of contracts – no bid
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Money went not to long term growth of the economy but was simply a wealth transfer to unions, environmental groups and political allies.

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Money is gone we are in debt and those jobs are mostly done.

I wonder why CNN/Time has gone very quiet on this “foreclosure fraud” issue.
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I have to commend Reuters for bringing out this issue in a timely manner, before Obama signed off on the bill.
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The rest of the MSM was found wanting when it comes to investigative reporting. I guess the Washington pundits like Crowley are busy covering the electoral circus – message Problems, witches, enthusiasm gap and other such nonsense.

“without addressing any of the above hypocrisies and reenforcing their own.”
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And its because you jump up and down at what YOU perceive as hypocrisy. But then its a nice misdirection from the hypocrisy and lies from the left. The biggest lie is the one the left keeps telling themselves

So,only der glorius leader from Kenya Comrade Barack Hussein Obama and his toxic duo helpers mad
Madame Speaker Nancy Pelosi and dingy Harry Reid
could get in the car that drunken George W Bush had
driven into the ditch and drive it over the cliff now then.

This thread’s long enough….