In the Arena

“Victory” in Iraq

It now appears that Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki is going to form a new government–with the support of none other than Muqtada Sadr, who is always called a “radical cleric” by the western media and whose Mahdi Army militia inflicted some of the worst losses on the U.S. military during the recent war. Sadr is a curious figure–a populist nationalist who is intermittently close to Iran (right now he’s in a ‘close’ phase). He spent the last several years in Iran, studying in Qom, the religious center of Shi’ism. His long-term plan probably doesn’t involve civilian government, but perhaps religious authority on the order of Ayatollah Ali Sistani, the most revered figure in both Iraq and Qom. Some say Sadr doesn’t have the chops to be an ayatollah; he does have the family roots, however–both his father and uncle were revered figures, murdered by Saddam Hussein.

The Maliki-Sadr deal raises an absolutely crucial question: what about the Sunnis? This is precisely the government that the Sunni minority feared; they backed secularist Ayad Allawi, the top vote getting in last spring’s elections, who will now be firmly shut out of power. This may see a revival of the Sunni insurgency that David Petraeus quelled with cash in 2007.

And what about, well…us? It is not certain that the Maliki-Sadr alliance will tilt toward Iran. Sadr has been anti-outsiders of all sorts in the past. But this does look like something less than the “victory” that John McCain and others were noisily touting last month. It looks, in fact, like an ongoing mess-as Time’s veteran Baghdad correspondent Bobby Ghosh lays out here.

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  • Ike Jakson

    Yeah Joe

    Whatever you say ….

  • afguy

    “Looks like” a mess, Joe?
    .
    Guess what, it IS!

  • mikew67

    Nowhere to be found in all the talk of government spending; Defense. Now over $750 billion per year. No problem?

    Lift up the rock to find more slush funds, overspending and fraud, than even in Medicare.

    – Balkingpoints / www

  • michaelfury

    “There’s a picture of the World Trade Center hanging up by my bed and I keep one in my Kevlar [flak jacket]. Every time I feel sorry for these people I look at that. I think, ‘They hit us at home and, now, it’s our turn.’ I don’t want to say payback but, you know, it’s pretty much payback.”

    http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2010/04/07/payback/

  • Cliff

    Hey, do you remember the time that we all called al-Sadr a thug and a criminal and said we should have killed him when we had the chance, as though we knew anything at all about what was going on in Iraq?
    .
    And now he’s part of the Iraqi government!
    .
    It’s a funny ol’ world, ain’t it?

  • afguy

    Hey, Cliff.
    .
    Remember when Saddam was our ho’ and we supported him against the Iranians?
    .
    Now we’ve been in that country for how many years now, trying to clean up what was supposed to be a clean, quick, surgical operation of “shock-and-awe”?
    .
    Refresh my memory… how many rationales have we now offered for that operation? We on about version 5.2 by now?
    .
    Exactly how many bullet holes have we put in our feet over the years because of our foreign policy in the part of the world?
    .
    What’s the heat like out there where you are about now?

  • http://erieangel.wordpress.com erieangel

    Saddam is gone, but I have a feeling that before things are said and done, we will have an even bigger enemy leading the Iraqi people. And will anybody be able to stabilize that part of the world the way Saddam had?

  • stuartzechman

    All of this undoubtedly goes to prove that “the surge worked.”

  • perrywhite1

    Wait! I thought it was “mission accomplished” about six years ago! You mean we’re STILL THERE?

  • kbanginmotown

    Oooh…SNAP!

  • Cliff

    It’s just like in Afghanistan. On even days, Hamid Karzai is our friend and Pakistan is giving us trouble.
    .
    On odd days, Karzai is a corrupt buffoon and Pakistan is going to help stabilize everything.
    .
    The heat is still lingering in Phoenix. We’ve been at 105 or so during the day.
    .
    It looks like we’re getting a cold front next week that’ll drop us down to 90 or so.
    .
    I’ll have to bust out my mittens.

  • grape_crush

    All of this undoubtedly goes to prove that “the surge worked.”
    .
    The irony is that Muqtada Sadr’s August 30th, 2007 ceasefire [is the real reason "the surge worked"], not the increase in the number of troops which began well before that date.

  • Alex Vallas

    You, like so many ill informed Americans, still think Iraq had something to do with 9/11. Wake up. We attacked Iraq without justification — based totally on Bush lies that claimed Iraq had WMD when in fact they knew otherwise. Iraq’s Sadaam hated and feared al-Queda. While he was a horrendous dictator and despot, in many areas the country was among the most liberated in the Middle East. Women were allowed to become doctors, lawyers, etc..They could wear Western dress. Their education system had improved dramatically under his “leadership.” Their medical system went from horrendous (I lived there as a member of the US Foreign Service) to one of the best in the Middle East. The sons were monsters and rightfully killed, but it was not the smartest move for the US to interfere. One has to ask was getting rid of Sadaam worth the thousands of American and allied lives plus tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis worth it? Was the damage it has done to our economy worth it? My resonse: Hell No. And now, it is very possible we handed the country over to Iran and it’s idiot president.

  • newfreedomblog

    The only thing which this proves is that the void Obama has created by removing our military forces will potentially be filled with the Mahdi Militia. Obama’s need to satisfy his base of support on the far left extreme of America will most definitely be the determining factor going forward.
    .
    In the rush to fulfill a campaign pledge, almost 9 years of blood, sweat, lives, and treasury have been thrown out the window to satisfy the far left extremists.
    .
    Yes indeed, mission accomplished.

  • destor23

    Al-Sadr reminds me of Hugo Chavez and of Castro before him — all were populist leaders who made overtures towards the U.S. at first and all were rejected and driven into the influence of our enemies.

  • Paul-no not that one

    Totally worth it!
    .
    http://icasualties.org/

  • Paul-no not that one

    No second thoughts!
    .
    http://www.costofwar.com/

  • allthingsinaname

    There you go; soon the goons will want to return to finish the job. ” The Never Ending Story “

  • m0mentom0ri

    “Obama has created by removing our military forces”
    .
    Are you advocating permanent colonization?

  • newfreedomblog

    No, not at all. But, stabilization was not completed. My point is that people primarily from the left have goaded Obama into a time table which was concrete in the sense there was little to no flexibility to allow for a situation where al-Malaki or anyone else to set up a legitimate government before pulling out the troops.
    .
    While approximately 50,000 troops still remain, which is a good thing in my mind, the perception was made that the US completely pulled out leaving a government which had not as of yet been stabilized. This also in my mind has allowed someone like Sadr come back into Iraq from his studies in Iran.
    .
    But, in any democracy, we do risk that chance a total despot (Obama) can be elected. It is up to the people themselves to decide who they want in their government. When that individual does not govern by the People, for the People, then they need to get rid of him.

  • Cliff

    So I was just reading an op-ed piece by Joseph Stiglitz and Linda Bilmes, and they mentioned that in 2003, Andrew Natsios (head of the US Agency for International Development) insisted that reconstructing Iraq would cost $1.7 billion.
    .
    http://www.fas.org/sgp/temp/natsios042303.html
    .
    Ah, 2003, when we as a nation believed whatever the sociopaths in charge told us.
    .
    Not much has changed, really.

  • maurice2u

    Noun

    despot (plural despots)

    1.A ruler with absolute power; a tyrant.

    ————-

    Obama, a total despot? Uh, what? ……
    .
    You had some reasonable points made there, worthy of consideration, but then you finish off with that? It would be totally reasonable for you to say you don’t like how the current President governs, dislike his policies, and think we would be better off as a nation if someone else was doing the job. There may be those who disagree, but it would be a reasonable opinion.
    .
    However, to say he is a despot (a tyrant), is so far beyond logic that it cheapens any reasonable position you might propose. Especially when weighted against prior assertions that he is too soft (apologizing all the time), or too much a “bleeding heart liberal”, etc.
    .
    This self-defeating methodology is what some posters here have tried to point out to you (newfreedomblog) time and time again. And the defense that “other people do it here too” is a child’s argument, inappropriate for the subject matter in this forum. And if your backup argument is that you don’t care what anyone thinks, then why so adamantly express your opinion in a location filled with no one you care to have consider it in the first place?
    .
    Does this blog simply serve as some manner of entertainment for you? Is there an emotional payoff in the rhetorical back and forth you find exhilarating and irresistible? Is there a desire to debate in earnest but simply an inability to articulate constructively and thus a backlash induced by frustration erupts from you? I’m posing this as succinctly and objectively as possible to make it clear I’m asking as one who truly does not understand and seeks clarification so that we can move on in a more positive direction, whether that be with better dialogue, or otherwise.

  • apr2563

    I am in moderation and I don’t know why. I did a history of our mistakes in Iraq and mentioned Friedman, Kagan et al.
    The only reason I can think is that I used the word “t**l”.
    Is that an unexceptable word? I used the word “p**p” once and was moderated. Now, though silly, I understood.
    The h*ll of it is, once in moderation you are stuck there for days or forever. Sheeeeeet!

  • Cliff

    Alex – michaelfury loves to pimp his blog, but here he’s just quoting some assh*le from the Bush Admin.
    .
    Based on the other little blurbs he puts out, I’m pretty sure he’s against the Iraq war.

  • tanboontee

    So, this is the kind of democracy the West had been trying to export to Iraq. How ridiculous, making the thousands of deaths of invading soldiers and the near trillion dollars burnt a stark mockery.

    Do not expect a stable or progressive future for the
    war-torn nation, it can only get worse, perhaps much worse.
    Where is the “victory”?
    (vzc43)

  • sasquatch08

    I certainly hope it’s not progressive. If it is, they’ll make billions off of oil and spend it all on “social justice” and end up bankrupt just like Greece, then we’ll have to go BACK in and stop the riots (riots with RPG’s).

  • kbanginmotown

    maurice:
    .
    You are describing what it would be to have a rational discussion. But you’re at your computer. Now look at your dining room table. Now back to the screen. At the table. Now back. You could probably have a more fulfilling discussion with the table. You’re on Swampland. ;)

  • kbanginmotown

    sacred spells p00p with zeros. In the past, words like “shell”, and “pass” caused problems until the Sheriffs blessed them. Perhaps you stepped into such a land mind…?

  • sacredh

    I haven’t posted much recently (once) because I’ve been trying to get a few projects finished before cold weather gets here, but I have been reading once in a while. We can say prick and pussy though if it’s any help. We’re going to try to finish our inside decorating for Hallowwen today. It’s raining here so the outside will have to wait. We are going to paint pumpkins this evening though. We bought a few monsters yesterday.

  • sacredh

    OT, but we have a large ornate lead crystal chandelier in our dining room with a couple of hundred pieces on it. My wife had me clean the damned thing yesterday before we draped it with spider webs and fake spiders. It took me 2 hours to polish the crystals. Go figure. Gotta run.

  • kbanginmotown

    crystal chandelier? sacred? elitist.

  • apr2563

    Hey sacredh. Thanks for taking a break with us. Now back to work!

  • sacredh

    apr2563, my better half is working my butt off. I just started a cigarette and coffee break. I can’t wait to go back to work Tuesday. Even my boss shows more mercy.
    .
    kbang, the chandelier was put in by the previous owners in 1960. They said they paid a grand for it back then. They were going to sell it when they moved but wanted $500 for it. I passed on it because I wanted to put in a ceiling fan. When the realtor gave me the keys they had left a note on it saying they were afraid it would get broken on the move to Arizona. My wife wouldn’t let me replace it. She also won’t clean it because it has to be cleaned from a ladder and she’s afraid she’d break it. I got screwed coming and going. It’s really nice but it’s a pain in the ass to clean.

  • Paul-no not that one

    http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/141918/how_to_clean_your_crystal_chandelier.html
    .
    Oh. Dear.
    .
    Now I feel guilty sitting out on the balcony sipping a Mirror Pond Pale Ale.

  • sacredh

    Pnnto, the article is pretty much how I clean ours. My wife bought this crap that said that all you had to do was spray it on and then let it dry. Bullsh!t. It dried with streaks on it and I had to polish each crystal anyway. I’m back to using Windex because it’s 1/5 the price with the same results and the same amount of work.
    .
    Really OT, but my wife left to go to her aunt’s house (my ex-MIL) and her mom was parading around the house clapping her hands and singing “Hey hey ho ho, Barack Obama has to go!” She was waiting for her ride to show up to go to evening services. She was just doing it to p!ss me off. I took her keys out of her purse and when she was waiting on the porch I went out and tossed a juice glass of water in her lap and then ran back in the house and locked the door. The pounding on the door was distracting so I came down here. She must have left because I haven’t heard anything for 5 minutes or so.

  • http://redstatedebate.wordpress.com redstatedebate

    Why is this picture not on the front page here?

    Another Epic Fail: Aerial Photo Of The Communist Rally Sucking A Hind Tit

    http://conservativeblogscentral.blogspot.com/2010/10/another-epic-fail-aerial-photo-of.html

  • Paul-no not that one

    sacredh, I’m sitting here trying to decide who on the interwebs makes me laugh more.
    .
    You or Tbogg.

  • englisheuropean

    “Qom, the religious center of Shi’ism”

    Really??? There was me, thinking that was Najaf.

    The Iranians have been trying for decades to build up Qom as an alternative centre to Najaf and they have succeeded to a degree, but Najaf is still currently on top.

  • sacredh

    Who is Tbogg? I don’t recall seeing that name on here before.

  • Paul-no not that one

    “I don’t recall seeing that name on here before”
    .
    Don’t be so micro. I meant the whole interwebs.

    http://tbogg.firedoglake.com/

  • sacredh

    I am micro. This is the only non-news site I go to (not counting sports and music/movie news).

  • sacredh

    Btw, thank you for the compliment. What it really means though is that my life is just seriously screwed up and I might have mental problems.

  • Paul-no not that one

    sacredh, heh I think you just described 99% of the population.
    .
    Everything is a matter of degrees.

  • http://redstatedebate.wordpress.com redstatedebate

    “Victory” in Iraq? How about violence at “One Nation” rally?

    http://tinyurl.com/Liberal-Protester-Assaults-Hum

  • sacredh

    Crap! Moderation again.

  • badgervan

    C’mon, Joe…. you know, as well as the rest of us with functioning brains know, that Iran was going to come out the winner of this fiasco from the get-go.
    Congrats, Mr. bush and Mr. cheney… and the all-knowing neocons like Gaffney and Bolton, who, for some reason, are still around and spouting off.
    If you understand nothing of a country’s culture and history, stay the hell out of their affairs… unless they do represent a clear and present danger to the United States of America. Iraq did not.

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  • Mr. Nice Guy

    Didn’t Saddam insult Bush’s pappy? And, certainly, Haliburton made out like bandits. Mission accomplished!!

  • sacredh

    I’d like a 20 piece McNuggets with a variety of sauces, a medium fries (no salt) and a Sierra Mist. Extra napkins too because I eat like a pig.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    One can only laugh at such a repetitious failure to learn. The alleged greatest country in the world somehow manages to fall victim time and time again to its own shameless narcissism. With such an unrivaled ability to make enemies of our friends and friends of our enemies, is it any wonder that the very group we’ve been fighting most fiercely for nearly a decade will now be a major component of the new Iraqi regime, the creation of which was ostensibly the major strategic goal of the last 7 years of war?

  • sacredh

    Does it remind you at all of years ago when we pressed the Palestinians to have elections and then they promptly elected people that we considered terrorists?

  • afguy

    Uh-oh, MNG… he didn’t just insult Bush41.
    .
    You just nubbled around the edges of our “real” rationale for the Iraq War: “after all this is the guy who tried to kill my dad.”
    .
    http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/09/27/1032734315453.html
    .
    This was more like a “family honor/vendetta” issue for Bush43.

  • afguy

    That should be “nibbled” – NOT “nubbled”…
    .
    Monday morning fat-fingers.

  • afguy

    sacredh,
    .
    It’s a “proper” election over there only when the result is who WE would have elected, have WE done the voting.
    .
    Sheesh…. don’t you understand THAT by now?

  • http://morleybolero.wordpress.com morleybolero

    Dude, quit re-writting history.

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