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	<title>Comments on: Health Care Goes South for Democrats</title>
	<atom:link href="http://swampland.time.com/2010/09/23/health-care-goes-south-for-democrats/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://swampland.time.com/2010/09/23/health-care-goes-south-for-democrats/</link>
	<description>Political insight from the Beltway and beyond</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 23 May 2013 09:55:40 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: patricksartor</title>
		<link>http://swampland.time.com/2010/09/23/health-care-goes-south-for-democrats/comment-page-1/#comment-204155</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[patricksartor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Sep 2010 21:41:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://swampland.blogs.time.com/?p=32309#comment-204155</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;The insurance and pharmaceutical industries have more power than ever, rates continue to escalate with no end in sight and physicians are now quite cognizant of the impending crisis, if millions of new patients are forced on already overburdened infrastructure.&quot;
.
So Earl&#039;s solution is to elect people who have always wanted more control by the insurance companies to make sure that things get much, much worse rather than elect more liberal Democrats who would, at the very least, put in the public option which will, due to their lower costs, destroy for profit health insurance when in open competition.
.
It&#039;s like discovering that the fox is watching the hen house and advocating to release the wolves to scare away the fox - and eat each and every hen in the process.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The insurance and pharmaceutical industries have more power than ever, rates continue to escalate with no end in sight and physicians are now quite cognizant of the impending crisis, if millions of new patients are forced on already overburdened infrastructure.&#8221;<br />
.<br />
So Earl&#8217;s solution is to elect people who have always wanted more control by the insurance companies to make sure that things get much, much worse rather than elect more liberal Democrats who would, at the very least, put in the public option which will, due to their lower costs, destroy for profit health insurance when in open competition.<br />
.<br />
It&#8217;s like discovering that the fox is watching the hen house and advocating to release the wolves to scare away the fox &#8211; and eat each and every hen in the process.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: earljr1</title>
		<link>http://swampland.time.com/2010/09/23/health-care-goes-south-for-democrats/comment-page-1/#comment-203967</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[earljr1]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Sep 2010 20:15:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://swampland.blogs.time.com/?p=32309#comment-203967</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You are right on the money with your commentary, chief568. Obamacare is at best, a mammoth fraud perpetrated on the American public. The democrats in their infinite wisdom, left the fox in charge of the hen house. The insurance and pharmaceutical industries have more power than ever, rates continue to escalate with no end in sight and physicians are now quite cognizant of the impending crisis, if millions of new patients are forced on already overburdened infrastructure. The most negatively impacted by obamacare, will be our seniors. New medicare patients will find great difficulty in finding a doctor to treat them as thousands of my colleagues are putting up a stop sign and who can blame them? Payment has been reduced and the insurance companies will tell us what we can, or cannot do, in treating our patients. This whole bill is nothing but a bureaucratic entanglement and DOES NOT serve the patient well. As it gets implemented, expect a long, anguished howl of protest (especially from our seniors) as patients experience major inconveniences. This bill SHOULD be repealed.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are right on the money with your commentary, chief568. Obamacare is at best, a mammoth fraud perpetrated on the American public. The democrats in their infinite wisdom, left the fox in charge of the hen house. The insurance and pharmaceutical industries have more power than ever, rates continue to escalate with no end in sight and physicians are now quite cognizant of the impending crisis, if millions of new patients are forced on already overburdened infrastructure. The most negatively impacted by obamacare, will be our seniors. New medicare patients will find great difficulty in finding a doctor to treat them as thousands of my colleagues are putting up a stop sign and who can blame them? Payment has been reduced and the insurance companies will tell us what we can, or cannot do, in treating our patients. This whole bill is nothing but a bureaucratic entanglement and DOES NOT serve the patient well. As it gets implemented, expect a long, anguished howl of protest (especially from our seniors) as patients experience major inconveniences. This bill SHOULD be repealed.</p>
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		<title>By: stuartzechman</title>
		<link>http://swampland.time.com/2010/09/23/health-care-goes-south-for-democrats/comment-page-1/#comment-203661</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[stuartzechman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Sep 2010 00:17:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://swampland.blogs.time.com/?p=32309#comment-203661</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It may take some time for me to properly digest this...hypothesis, as it were.
.
I&#039;ve got Jay Ackroyd&#039;s public affairs show Virtually Speaking in Second Life in 45 minutes, I may not be able to respond, as I&#039;d like.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It may take some time for me to properly digest this&#8230;hypothesis, as it were.<br />
.<br />
I&#8217;ve got Jay Ackroyd&#8217;s public affairs show Virtually Speaking in Second Life in 45 minutes, I may not be able to respond, as I&#8217;d like.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: stuartzechman</title>
		<link>http://swampland.time.com/2010/09/23/health-care-goes-south-for-democrats/comment-page-1/#comment-203654</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[stuartzechman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Sep 2010 00:05:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://swampland.blogs.time.com/?p=32309#comment-203654</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;&lt;i&gt;The liberals/progressives never pass up a chance to force their will on that of the people. They know better than everyone else so they passed Obamacare over the opposition of the majority of US citizens.&lt;/i&gt;&quot;
.
Hey, movement liberals didn&#039;t have anything to do with passing this thing, our representatives were mostly threatened into voting for it, and it&#039;s obviously not liberal policy.
.
&quot;Progressives,&quot; on the other hand, love it.
.
This is their policy, not ours.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;<i>The liberals/progressives never pass up a chance to force their will on that of the people. They know better than everyone else so they passed Obamacare over the opposition of the majority of US citizens.</i>&#8221;<br />
.<br />
Hey, movement liberals didn&#8217;t have anything to do with passing this thing, our representatives were mostly threatened into voting for it, and it&#8217;s obviously not liberal policy.<br />
.<br />
&#8220;Progressives,&#8221; on the other hand, love it.<br />
.<br />
This is their policy, not ours.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: patricksartor</title>
		<link>http://swampland.time.com/2010/09/23/health-care-goes-south-for-democrats/comment-page-1/#comment-203637</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[patricksartor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Sep 2010 23:18:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://swampland.blogs.time.com/?p=32309#comment-203637</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Like Kids, the left must blame someone besides themselves for the fact that no one loves them but themselves.&quot;
. 
Actually, 3X, as the popularity grows and grows very, very slowly, it is not blame I want for both Democrats in both houses and Democratic voters like myself in addition to Obama, it is on it&#039;s way to being something we will take credit for.
.
I am, obviously, not president Obama, so, if you call it &quot;Obamacare&quot; you leave me out. &quot;If you call it Patricksartorcare, it would be even less accurate and nobody outside of swampland would have any idea what you are talking about.
.
So, I prefer, Democratic Health Care Reform since I did not write it myself at all.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Like Kids, the left must blame someone besides themselves for the fact that no one loves them but themselves.&#8221;<br />
.<br />
Actually, 3X, as the popularity grows and grows very, very slowly, it is not blame I want for both Democrats in both houses and Democratic voters like myself in addition to Obama, it is on it&#8217;s way to being something we will take credit for.<br />
.<br />
I am, obviously, not president Obama, so, if you call it &#8220;Obamacare&#8221; you leave me out. &#8220;If you call it Patricksartorcare, it would be even less accurate and nobody outside of swampland would have any idea what you are talking about.<br />
.<br />
So, I prefer, Democratic Health Care Reform since I did not write it myself at all.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: 3xfire3</title>
		<link>http://swampland.time.com/2010/09/23/health-care-goes-south-for-democrats/comment-page-1/#comment-203627</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[3xfire3]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Sep 2010 22:34:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://swampland.blogs.time.com/?p=32309#comment-203627</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Stuart,
.
You are correct.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stuart,<br />
.<br />
You are correct.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: 3xfire3</title>
		<link>http://swampland.time.com/2010/09/23/health-care-goes-south-for-democrats/comment-page-1/#comment-203625</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[3xfire3]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Sep 2010 22:32:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://swampland.blogs.time.com/?p=32309#comment-203625</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Liberalmeltdown,.


&quot;Don&#039;t take it personal Michael. Kids will be kids. They don&#039;t want to accept the responsibility of perpetuating fraud on the public.

Ever so sensitive to labels like: Obamcare, the liberals would never use something like that, or call someone a teabagger, nope.

You think they&#039;re cranky now, wait until November.&quot;
.
Excellent post.
.
Like Kids, the left must blame someone besides themselves for the fact that no one loves them but themselves.
.
November will be great.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Liberalmeltdown,.</p>
<p>&#8220;Don&#8217;t take it personal Michael. Kids will be kids. They don&#8217;t want to accept the responsibility of perpetuating fraud on the public.</p>
<p>Ever so sensitive to labels like: Obamcare, the liberals would never use something like that, or call someone a teabagger, nope.</p>
<p>You think they&#8217;re cranky now, wait until November.&#8221;<br />
.<br />
Excellent post.<br />
.<br />
Like Kids, the left must blame someone besides themselves for the fact that no one loves them but themselves.<br />
.<br />
November will be great.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: conradca</title>
		<link>http://swampland.time.com/2010/09/23/health-care-goes-south-for-democrats/comment-page-1/#comment-203619</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[conradca]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Sep 2010 22:24:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://swampland.blogs.time.com/?p=32309#comment-203619</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The problem with Obamacare is that it is dishonest and fascist. 

The &quot;deficit reduction&quot; was based on fraud. They counted 10 years of new taxes and only 6 years of expenses. Furthermore, they counted on revenue that then knew was not real. Such as the reduction in fees paid for medicare that would have destroyed medicare. So any claim of deficit reduction is a lie.

Obamacare weill destroy the current healthcare system we have. This is contrary to Obamas promise to let us keep the existing plans. Obamacare kills the existing plans by adding additional requirements to all insurances and by making it much cheaper for businesses to drop the insurance the provide to their employees.

The liberals/progressives never pass up a chance to force their will on that of the people. They know better than everyone else so they  passed Obamacare over the opposition of the majority of US citizens. Then the attacked those who expressed disagreement calling them Nazis, astrotruf and pawns of the wealthy evil insurance companies. Now they are trying to ban plastic shopping bags and tax paper bags because they know better than the people. Oh, and my favorite, they are trying to ban free toys with kid&#039;s meals. They also want to force people to live in small boxes packed together like sardines and only ride public transit because they know better and have the power to force their will on the rest of us. They love the Cap &amp; Trade bill because it will give them control of just about everything we do. They have a lot in common with the fascists and communists.

Another great example of their arrogance is how they &quot;interpret the second amendment&quot; to mean, not what is clear states, but support their views that guns should be banned. There is no limit to their arrogance and fascist nature.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem with Obamacare is that it is dishonest and fascist. </p>
<p>The &#8220;deficit reduction&#8221; was based on fraud. They counted 10 years of new taxes and only 6 years of expenses. Furthermore, they counted on revenue that then knew was not real. Such as the reduction in fees paid for medicare that would have destroyed medicare. So any claim of deficit reduction is a lie.</p>
<p>Obamacare weill destroy the current healthcare system we have. This is contrary to Obamas promise to let us keep the existing plans. Obamacare kills the existing plans by adding additional requirements to all insurances and by making it much cheaper for businesses to drop the insurance the provide to their employees.</p>
<p>The liberals/progressives never pass up a chance to force their will on that of the people. They know better than everyone else so they  passed Obamacare over the opposition of the majority of US citizens. Then the attacked those who expressed disagreement calling them Nazis, astrotruf and pawns of the wealthy evil insurance companies. Now they are trying to ban plastic shopping bags and tax paper bags because they know better than the people. Oh, and my favorite, they are trying to ban free toys with kid&#8217;s meals. They also want to force people to live in small boxes packed together like sardines and only ride public transit because they know better and have the power to force their will on the rest of us. They love the Cap &amp; Trade bill because it will give them control of just about everything we do. They have a lot in common with the fascists and communists.</p>
<p>Another great example of their arrogance is how they &#8220;interpret the second amendment&#8221; to mean, not what is clear states, but support their views that guns should be banned. There is no limit to their arrogance and fascist nature.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: patricksartor</title>
		<link>http://swampland.time.com/2010/09/23/health-care-goes-south-for-democrats/comment-page-1/#comment-203618</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[patricksartor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Sep 2010 22:23:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://swampland.blogs.time.com/?p=32309#comment-203618</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Note: by any standard of &quot;proof&quot; neither one of us have any way of having &quot;proof&quot; about 2014, 2020, etc much less what would have happened if this HCR failed.  
.
I have a hypothesis as you do.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Note: by any standard of &#8220;proof&#8221; neither one of us have any way of having &#8220;proof&#8221; about 2014, 2020, etc much less what would have happened if this HCR failed.<br />
.<br />
I have a hypothesis as you do.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: patricksartor</title>
		<link>http://swampland.time.com/2010/09/23/health-care-goes-south-for-democrats/comment-page-1/#comment-203616</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[patricksartor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Sep 2010 22:22:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://swampland.blogs.time.com/?p=32309#comment-203616</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;What evidence do you have that establishment Democrats are positively involved in some kind of &quot;long evolution towards&quot; Canada&#039;s system?&quot;
.
First, you can use Republican examples of Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security or Liberal examples of the military industrial complex as a template for government behavior.  Once you go as far as to create an agency and/or regulations, there is a push to expand, not maintain or retract that agency and/or regulators to constantly correct for unintended consequences or incomplete results.
.
Second, from Chief&#039;s article:
.
&quot;The change has angered lawmakers, regulators and healthcare advocates, who say it will force more families to enroll in already strained public insurance programs such as Medi-Cal for the poor in California.

The White House weighed in Tuesday, condemning Anthem corporate parent WellPoint Inc. and others that plan to stop selling child-only policies.&quot;
.
If this particular problem of children only policies continues or gets worse and is already visible to the white house and Democrats in congress, the next step - within the next year if we keep the majority - is a correction of this problem through amendments to the law.
.
Except for New Deal job programs like the WPA, the CCC and so on, which were abolished due to responding to the opposite problem from unemployment to preparing for war, find me any examples of programs which shrank, were abolished or did not expand.  
.
This has been my thesis all along and how it differs from yours.  Single payer, after 97 years, has it&#039;s toe in the door.  That toe is not going to get cut off. It will,  within ten years, be a full foot in the door and, possibly, due to the problems of not having a public option, have a full foot in the door with a public option.
.
It&#039;s an evolution, not a revolution.
.
In my own interpretation of history, most things, even political revolution, evolve slowly rather than coming out of the womb as a fully formed adult.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;What evidence do you have that establishment Democrats are positively involved in some kind of &#8220;long evolution towards&#8221; Canada&#8217;s system?&#8221;<br />
.<br />
First, you can use Republican examples of Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security or Liberal examples of the military industrial complex as a template for government behavior.  Once you go as far as to create an agency and/or regulations, there is a push to expand, not maintain or retract that agency and/or regulators to constantly correct for unintended consequences or incomplete results.<br />
.<br />
Second, from Chief&#8217;s article:<br />
.<br />
&#8220;The change has angered lawmakers, regulators and healthcare advocates, who say it will force more families to enroll in already strained public insurance programs such as Medi-Cal for the poor in California.</p>
<p>The White House weighed in Tuesday, condemning Anthem corporate parent WellPoint Inc. and others that plan to stop selling child-only policies.&#8221;<br />
.<br />
If this particular problem of children only policies continues or gets worse and is already visible to the white house and Democrats in congress, the next step &#8211; within the next year if we keep the majority &#8211; is a correction of this problem through amendments to the law.<br />
.<br />
Except for New Deal job programs like the WPA, the CCC and so on, which were abolished due to responding to the opposite problem from unemployment to preparing for war, find me any examples of programs which shrank, were abolished or did not expand.<br />
.<br />
This has been my thesis all along and how it differs from yours.  Single payer, after 97 years, has it&#8217;s toe in the door.  That toe is not going to get cut off. It will,  within ten years, be a full foot in the door and, possibly, due to the problems of not having a public option, have a full foot in the door with a public option.<br />
.<br />
It&#8217;s an evolution, not a revolution.<br />
.<br />
In my own interpretation of history, most things, even political revolution, evolve slowly rather than coming out of the womb as a fully formed adult.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: patricksartor</title>
		<link>http://swampland.time.com/2010/09/23/health-care-goes-south-for-democrats/comment-page-1/#comment-203605</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[patricksartor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Sep 2010 22:07:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://swampland.blogs.time.com/?p=32309#comment-203605</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Meltdown,
.
First, nobody would object to &quot;The Democrats Health Care Reform&quot; since it is absolutely factually correct. But, Obamacare is a slur.
.
Second, Michael nor any of the other journalists, held to a higher standard than any of us are (or at least should be) do not call you (as I usually don&#039;t unless somebody is starting another personal attack) &quot;teabaggers&quot;.
.
Until recently, a few months ago, I forgot what it meant since it was just something crude guys would tell each other about after a few drinks in college when there are no women around.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Meltdown,<br />
.<br />
First, nobody would object to &#8220;The Democrats Health Care Reform&#8221; since it is absolutely factually correct. But, Obamacare is a slur.<br />
.<br />
Second, Michael nor any of the other journalists, held to a higher standard than any of us are (or at least should be) do not call you (as I usually don&#8217;t unless somebody is starting another personal attack) &#8220;teabaggers&#8221;.<br />
.<br />
Until recently, a few months ago, I forgot what it meant since it was just something crude guys would tell each other about after a few drinks in college when there are no women around.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: stuartzechman</title>
		<link>http://swampland.time.com/2010/09/23/health-care-goes-south-for-democrats/comment-page-1/#comment-203586</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[stuartzechman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Sep 2010 21:40:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://swampland.blogs.time.com/?p=32309#comment-203586</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Whoah, wait a second, patricksartor...
.
&quot;&lt;i&gt;as a small part of a long evolution towards single payer&lt;/i&gt;&quot;
.
What evidence do you have that establishment Democrats are positively involved in some kind of &quot;long evolution towards&quot; Canada&#039;s system?
.
Isn&#039;t there all kinds of evidence that the people in charge of the Democratic Party are quite opposed to a single-payer system, even if many of them are (sensibly) oblique about their principles at opportune electoral moments?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whoah, wait a second, patricksartor&#8230;<br />
.<br />
&#8220;<i>as a small part of a long evolution towards single payer</i>&#8221;<br />
.<br />
What evidence do you have that establishment Democrats are positively involved in some kind of &#8220;long evolution towards&#8221; Canada&#8217;s system?<br />
.<br />
Isn&#8217;t there all kinds of evidence that the people in charge of the Democratic Party are quite opposed to a single-payer system, even if many of them are (sensibly) oblique about their principles at opportune electoral moments?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: liberalmeltdown</title>
		<link>http://swampland.time.com/2010/09/23/health-care-goes-south-for-democrats/comment-page-1/#comment-203585</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[liberalmeltdown]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Sep 2010 21:40:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://swampland.blogs.time.com/?p=32309#comment-203585</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Don&#039;t take it personal Michael.  Kids will be kids.  They don&#039;t want to accept the responsibility of perpetuating fraud on the public.  

Ever so sensitive to labels like: Obamcare, the liberals would never use something like that, or call someone a teabagger, nope.

You think they&#039;re cranky now, wait until November.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don&#8217;t take it personal Michael.  Kids will be kids.  They don&#8217;t want to accept the responsibility of perpetuating fraud on the public.  </p>
<p>Ever so sensitive to labels like: Obamcare, the liberals would never use something like that, or call someone a teabagger, nope.</p>
<p>You think they&#8217;re cranky now, wait until November.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: patricksartor</title>
		<link>http://swampland.time.com/2010/09/23/health-care-goes-south-for-democrats/comment-page-1/#comment-203578</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[patricksartor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Sep 2010 21:30:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://swampland.blogs.time.com/?p=32309#comment-203578</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Chief, from your own link:
.

&quot;The action will apply only to new coverage sought for children and not to existing child-only plans, family policies or insurance provided to youngsters through their parents&#039; employers....
...The insurers said they now sell relatively few child-only policies, and thus the changes will have a small effect on families.&quot;
.
I see one thing for you and one thing for Stuart.
.
1) For Chief, this will impact very few people since most people insure both themselves and their children. If these people work for companies which prefer getting health care insurance rather than the tax, the harm will promptly be undone.
.
2) For Stuart, as the link says, congress has already condemned this action.  What I read is, if Democrats get a majority, congress will close this loophole as a small part of a long evolution towards single payer.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chief, from your own link:<br />
.</p>
<p>&#8220;The action will apply only to new coverage sought for children and not to existing child-only plans, family policies or insurance provided to youngsters through their parents&#8217; employers&#8230;.<br />
&#8230;The insurers said they now sell relatively few child-only policies, and thus the changes will have a small effect on families.&#8221;<br />
.<br />
I see one thing for you and one thing for Stuart.<br />
.<br />
1) For Chief, this will impact very few people since most people insure both themselves and their children. If these people work for companies which prefer getting health care insurance rather than the tax, the harm will promptly be undone.<br />
.<br />
2) For Stuart, as the link says, congress has already condemned this action.  What I read is, if Democrats get a majority, congress will close this loophole as a small part of a long evolution towards single payer.</p>
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		<title>By: patricksartor</title>
		<link>http://swampland.time.com/2010/09/23/health-care-goes-south-for-democrats/comment-page-1/#comment-203559</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[patricksartor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Sep 2010 20:57:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://swampland.blogs.time.com/?p=32309#comment-203559</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Stuart,
.
I respectfully disagree with two things;
.
1) As I stated above (but after your comment) that I do agree with a concept Republicans so often say: once a government agency or laws are created, they are very seldom repealed but, instead, often made larger.  (As stated above, I only agree with that smaller point, not which things should be shrinking or abolished.)
.
2) I sent you the PBS Frontline episode about the passing of HCR. Maybe I have some insights being from a mildly dysfunctional family of six, but, as Frontline presented it, I am not in the least bit surprised that adding all of these decision makers when going through congressional and senate committees radically alters the bill to be watered down and changed into something different.
.
Our biggest difference is in intent of the administration. It seems to be your POV that Obama knew exactly what this bill would look like from the beginning of his campaign and always wanted this. By contrast, I believe that he was only very slightly less surprised that all of us were that his HCR reform went from a slightly more conservative version of the German model to what it became, but, as when figuring out what six different people want to order for Friday nigh Pizza, you have the option of taking what you get or starving.  
.
Since I believe that the president meant what he said, if and only if we have a significant Democratic majority with very few yellow bellied blue dogs and many progressive Democrats in that majority, this president himself may work with congress to make this health care package far, far more like the one he promised after 2012 or, possibly, after 2014 when it gains significant popularity.
.
This is one difference I, also, have with 3Xfire3: president is very dissimilar to CEO/President of a company. Company presidents and CEOs run dictatorships.  Presidents are more like Kindergarten teachers hoping to get all of the congress to play together nicely and not spend all day throwing blocks at one another.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stuart,<br />
.<br />
I respectfully disagree with two things;<br />
.<br />
1) As I stated above (but after your comment) that I do agree with a concept Republicans so often say: once a government agency or laws are created, they are very seldom repealed but, instead, often made larger.  (As stated above, I only agree with that smaller point, not which things should be shrinking or abolished.)<br />
.<br />
2) I sent you the PBS Frontline episode about the passing of HCR. Maybe I have some insights being from a mildly dysfunctional family of six, but, as Frontline presented it, I am not in the least bit surprised that adding all of these decision makers when going through congressional and senate committees radically alters the bill to be watered down and changed into something different.<br />
.<br />
Our biggest difference is in intent of the administration. It seems to be your POV that Obama knew exactly what this bill would look like from the beginning of his campaign and always wanted this. By contrast, I believe that he was only very slightly less surprised that all of us were that his HCR reform went from a slightly more conservative version of the German model to what it became, but, as when figuring out what six different people want to order for Friday nigh Pizza, you have the option of taking what you get or starving.<br />
.<br />
Since I believe that the president meant what he said, if and only if we have a significant Democratic majority with very few yellow bellied blue dogs and many progressive Democrats in that majority, this president himself may work with congress to make this health care package far, far more like the one he promised after 2012 or, possibly, after 2014 when it gains significant popularity.<br />
.<br />
This is one difference I, also, have with 3Xfire3: president is very dissimilar to CEO/President of a company. Company presidents and CEOs run dictatorships.  Presidents are more like Kindergarten teachers hoping to get all of the congress to play together nicely and not spend all day throwing blocks at one another.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: stuartzechman</title>
		<link>http://swampland.time.com/2010/09/23/health-care-goes-south-for-democrats/comment-page-1/#comment-203553</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[stuartzechman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Sep 2010 20:38:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://swampland.blogs.time.com/?p=32309#comment-203553</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;&lt;i&gt;The new system is overly complex - it is, as Stuart Zechman might say - a Center-Right system&lt;/i&gt;&quot;
.
Whatever else is or is not the case, you are correct --that is exactly what I might say.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;<i>The new system is overly complex &#8211; it is, as Stuart Zechman might say &#8211; a Center-Right system</i>&#8221;<br />
.<br />
Whatever else is or is not the case, you are correct &#8211;that is exactly what I might say.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: chief568</title>
		<link>http://swampland.time.com/2010/09/23/health-care-goes-south-for-democrats/comment-page-1/#comment-203551</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[chief568]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Sep 2010 20:35:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://swampland.blogs.time.com/?p=32309#comment-203551</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hey pelhamite1,

Oh REALLY?

Big health insurers to stop selling new child-only policies
Anthem Blue Cross, Aetna Inc. and others say they will make the move as soon as Thursday when parts of the new healthcare law take effect. They cite potentially huge and unexpected costs for insuring children.

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/sep/21/business/la-fi-kids-health-insurance-20100921

Looks like Medicare might be cut too.

Oh and the premiums for health insurance will be raised soon too.

Haven&#039;t you figured this out yet???  WHY is there a 4 year lag time between the government sponsored healthcare and the taxes collected to deal with it if healthcare costs won&#039;t go up &quot;one thin dime&quot;?

Because it&#039;s a waiting game.  Those with catastrophic diseases will now get healthcare at normal rates...so ALL the rates will go up.  Once that happens, people will shop for a better rate...until the insurance company they had goes out of business.  Then the process happens again and again...UNTIL only the RICH will be able to afford private healthcare insurance...and the rest of the population will have to be on government health care.

BTW, just HOW did these children survive BEFORE this law was inacted?

Oh and you didn&#039;t see the little blurb in the law that states those under age 14 or older than 60 have to have a review of their conditions in front of a board, which will do essentially a cost/benefit analysis as to whether or not it is economically sound for the government to finance someone&#039;s treatments.

Before, you could sue the private institution if they didn&#039;t treat you...good LUCK suing the federal government.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey pelhamite1,</p>
<p>Oh REALLY?</p>
<p>Big health insurers to stop selling new child-only policies<br />
Anthem Blue Cross, Aetna Inc. and others say they will make the move as soon as Thursday when parts of the new healthcare law take effect. They cite potentially huge and unexpected costs for insuring children.</p>
<p><a href="http://articles.latimes.com/2010/sep/21/business/la-fi-kids-health-insurance-20100921" rel="nofollow">http://articles.latimes.com/2010/sep/21/business/la-fi-kids-health-insurance-20100921</a></p>
<p>Looks like Medicare might be cut too.</p>
<p>Oh and the premiums for health insurance will be raised soon too.</p>
<p>Haven&#8217;t you figured this out yet???  WHY is there a 4 year lag time between the government sponsored healthcare and the taxes collected to deal with it if healthcare costs won&#8217;t go up &#8220;one thin dime&#8221;?</p>
<p>Because it&#8217;s a waiting game.  Those with catastrophic diseases will now get healthcare at normal rates&#8230;so ALL the rates will go up.  Once that happens, people will shop for a better rate&#8230;until the insurance company they had goes out of business.  Then the process happens again and again&#8230;UNTIL only the RICH will be able to afford private healthcare insurance&#8230;and the rest of the population will have to be on government health care.</p>
<p>BTW, just HOW did these children survive BEFORE this law was inacted?</p>
<p>Oh and you didn&#8217;t see the little blurb in the law that states those under age 14 or older than 60 have to have a review of their conditions in front of a board, which will do essentially a cost/benefit analysis as to whether or not it is economically sound for the government to finance someone&#8217;s treatments.</p>
<p>Before, you could sue the private institution if they didn&#8217;t treat you&#8230;good LUCK suing the federal government.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: patricksartor</title>
		<link>http://swampland.time.com/2010/09/23/health-care-goes-south-for-democrats/comment-page-1/#comment-203550</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[patricksartor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Sep 2010 20:35:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://swampland.blogs.time.com/?p=32309#comment-203550</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t know your name, but presume you are joking.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know your name, but presume you are joking.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: apr2563</title>
		<link>http://swampland.time.com/2010/09/23/health-care-goes-south-for-democrats/comment-page-1/#comment-203549</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[apr2563]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Sep 2010 20:33:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://swampland.blogs.time.com/?p=32309#comment-203549</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/09/22/sharron-angle-autism-health-care-coverage_n_735885.html
.
Please stop calling health reform Obamacare.  It was, unfortunately, assembled by group think, steered by lobbyists.  Some good things in the bill but needs a serious overall, and not by the current group of Republicans.
.
Please point out the stupidity of some Reps who seem to have a basic misunderstanding of health insurance.  Angle only wants policies that charge premium for what a customer will need.  She wonders why insureds have to pay for maternity costs, autism costs, etc.  Why they may never use those benefits!  Do you think she wants to have cancer covered?  You might never use that benefit.  How about carbuncles?
.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/09/22/sharron-angle-autism-health-care-coverage_n_735885.html
.
But then, she also wants to privatize the VA.
.
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/09/reid-ad-angle-wants-to-privatize-the-va-end-our-promise-to-veterans-video.php
.
Why don&#039;t you canvas the TP candidates and other reactionary Republicans to find out if they buy into the Angle concept of insurance?  So they also want to privatize the VA?  I would like them to explain that to our wounded vets.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/09/22/sharron-angle-autism-health-care-coverage_n_735885.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/09/22/sharron-angle-autism-health-care-coverage_n_735885.html</a><br />
.<br />
Please stop calling health reform Obamacare.  It was, unfortunately, assembled by group think, steered by lobbyists.  Some good things in the bill but needs a serious overall, and not by the current group of Republicans.<br />
.<br />
Please point out the stupidity of some Reps who seem to have a basic misunderstanding of health insurance.  Angle only wants policies that charge premium for what a customer will need.  She wonders why insureds have to pay for maternity costs, autism costs, etc.  Why they may never use those benefits!  Do you think she wants to have cancer covered?  You might never use that benefit.  How about carbuncles?<br />
.<br />
<a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/09/22/sharron-angle-autism-health-care-coverage_n_735885.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/09/22/sharron-angle-autism-health-care-coverage_n_735885.html</a><br />
.<br />
But then, she also wants to privatize the VA.<br />
.<br />
<a href="http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/09/reid-ad-angle-wants-to-privatize-the-va-end-our-promise-to-veterans-video.php" rel="nofollow">http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/09/reid-ad-angle-wants-to-privatize-the-va-end-our-promise-to-veterans-video.php</a><br />
.<br />
Why don&#8217;t you canvas the TP candidates and other reactionary Republicans to find out if they buy into the Angle concept of insurance?  So they also want to privatize the VA?  I would like them to explain that to our wounded vets.</p>
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		<title>By: patricksartor</title>
		<link>http://swampland.time.com/2010/09/23/health-care-goes-south-for-democrats/comment-page-1/#comment-203547</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[patricksartor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Sep 2010 20:32:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://swampland.blogs.time.com/?p=32309#comment-203547</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Two different matters:
.
1) Obamacare sounds like either a Mcname as in a name some really bad advertising people came up with for a catchy slogan or a perjorative.  It just doesn&#039;t sound professional just as no Democrats (with Democratic advertisers asleep at the wheel rather than coming up with catchy perjoratives) never called Iraq The Bushwar.  It was, like HCR, something Bush took ownership of. It was his idea, yet, not called The Bushwar.
.
2) With 97 years since Theodore Roosevelt promised in his failed third term attempt in 1912 under the Progressive/Bull Mouse Party, the waiting until it&#039;s perfect strategy was, clearly, by 2012, a total failure.
.
I can agree with Republicans on one of their smaller points: when a government agency or program starts (with the exception for the New Deal programs to put people to work which shut down promptly as the Second World War started in Europe and labor demand went through the ceiling) it almost never gets cut. Unlike Republicans, however, I would site some of the cold war military spending as what I would like to see on the hit list, but, that&#039;s off topic.
.
Now we have government offices dealing with health care for people who are employed and not impoverished.  From here, with Republican obstructionism, our worst case scenario is that this remains as it is for two to twenty years.  Our most likely scenario is that the yellow bellied blue dogs are less timid when moderate and progressive Democrats put the public option back on the table.
.
We all know the math of the public option. Even with higher wages for it&#039;s lowest paying positions, with no huge executive offices, a $200k per year rather than $20m per year salary for the CEO, no advertising costs, no profit sharing that the public option will devour for profit insurance companies such that these companies will have to start branching into other forms of insurance and start closing down their health care insurance divisions.
.
That, I would guess five years after the public option, would have only the public option left with nobody hiring lobbyists against single payer.
.
From there we go to single payer.
.
I totally agree that this is watered down, weak and barely half of what anybody wanted, but, if we left it at waiting for perfection, perhaps another 97 years would have gone by with no plans completed and I am not going to be alive in 2107 to see that happen.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Two different matters:<br />
.<br />
1) Obamacare sounds like either a Mcname as in a name some really bad advertising people came up with for a catchy slogan or a perjorative.  It just doesn&#8217;t sound professional just as no Democrats (with Democratic advertisers asleep at the wheel rather than coming up with catchy perjoratives) never called Iraq The Bushwar.  It was, like HCR, something Bush took ownership of. It was his idea, yet, not called The Bushwar.<br />
.<br />
2) With 97 years since Theodore Roosevelt promised in his failed third term attempt in 1912 under the Progressive/Bull Mouse Party, the waiting until it&#8217;s perfect strategy was, clearly, by 2012, a total failure.<br />
.<br />
I can agree with Republicans on one of their smaller points: when a government agency or program starts (with the exception for the New Deal programs to put people to work which shut down promptly as the Second World War started in Europe and labor demand went through the ceiling) it almost never gets cut. Unlike Republicans, however, I would site some of the cold war military spending as what I would like to see on the hit list, but, that&#8217;s off topic.<br />
.<br />
Now we have government offices dealing with health care for people who are employed and not impoverished.  From here, with Republican obstructionism, our worst case scenario is that this remains as it is for two to twenty years.  Our most likely scenario is that the yellow bellied blue dogs are less timid when moderate and progressive Democrats put the public option back on the table.<br />
.<br />
We all know the math of the public option. Even with higher wages for it&#8217;s lowest paying positions, with no huge executive offices, a $200k per year rather than $20m per year salary for the CEO, no advertising costs, no profit sharing that the public option will devour for profit insurance companies such that these companies will have to start branching into other forms of insurance and start closing down their health care insurance divisions.<br />
.<br />
That, I would guess five years after the public option, would have only the public option left with nobody hiring lobbyists against single payer.<br />
.<br />
From there we go to single payer.<br />
.<br />
I totally agree that this is watered down, weak and barely half of what anybody wanted, but, if we left it at waiting for perfection, perhaps another 97 years would have gone by with no plans completed and I am not going to be alive in 2107 to see that happen.</p>
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