President Obama Tangles Democratic Message On The Tea Party

The supposedly “smartest President we ever had” is a fine match for the supposedly smartest media we ever had. What a lovely pair they make with their shoelaces tied together! LMFAO!

I didn’t think you had presidents in the UK.

I know you only care about horse-race issues, Michael, but this is the “great unknown question of the Tea Party”:

[T]he challenge, I think, for the Tea Party movement is to identify specifically, what would you do? It’s not enough just to say, “Get control of spending.” I think it’s important for you to say, “You know, I’m willing to cut veterans’ benefits,” or, “I’m willing to cut Medicare or Social Security benefits,” or, “I’m willing to see these taxes go up.” What you can’t do — which is what I’ve been hearing a lot from the other side — is saying, “We’re going to control government spending. We’re going to propose $4 trillion of additional tax cuts,” and that magically somehow things are going to work.

I know the horse race is a bright shiny object for you, but those of us whose lives will be affected by policy changes — you know, “Americans” — would love to have someone press the Tea Party and Republicans and get these answers.

Amen. Plus, it would help to distract people from the racists and wingnuts in the group.

Obama, as is usually the case, is clueless about the origin and purpose of the tea party. First and foremost, it is a total repudiation of his administration and its policies. It is a condemnation of intrusive government and irresponsible fiscal management. It is a condemnation of the lies and arrogance that trademark his tenure in office and what is perceived as his quest for a socialist government. Much to the chagrin of our far left friends, America remains center/right and we are reclaiming our voice in determining how this government is going to be managed. Get use to it, we are here to stay!

Well, he does have a Conservative MP, albeit only because the Liberal leader (Clegg) allowed him to form a govt. in a power deal. Of course, their C’s and L’s are different from ours. Lovely overseas reporter / media starlet (and hopefully future swamplander) Catherine Mayer interviewed Cameron and he addressed THAT up front –
http://www.time.com/time/video/player/0,32068,115568863001_2004226,00.html
(thx to equally lovely JNS for introducing us to Mayer; her wit would eviscerate Rusty / Freep)

“This is the great unknown question of the Tea Party. Will it continue to spread into the political center, as a vehicle for channeling broadly held frustrations and anger into political power, or will it be relegated to the fringes of the Republican Party, while the furies find other modes of expression?”
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It’s the Republican base, nitwit. Anyone checked the DC water supply for lead lately?
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http://www.gallup.com/poll/141098/tea-party-supporters-overlap-republican-base.aspx

I know that’s what you think its about. But I heard from a tea party member when it was first starting that it was anti big government & anti taxes & anti deficit and that it largely hated both parties.
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I don’t see that as much anymore, so maybe you are right. But if that’s the case, I respect the group even less than I did when I first heard about it and formulated an opinion that it was an unfocused group with a very vague and possibly destructive agenda.

I know that’s what you think its about. But I heard from a tea party member when it was first starting that it was anti big government & anti taxes & anti deficit and that it largely hated both parties.
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I don’t see that as much anymore, so maybe you are right. But if that’s the case, I respect the group even less than I did when I first heard about it and formulated an opinion that it was an unfocused group with a very vague and possibly destructive agenda.

[posted incorrectly below]

^ ignore this ^
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Posted in the wrong place

Obama got HCR passed… but it was Romney / Dole’s version, NOT Hillary’s or the UK govt.-tun system. So Earl, you’re saying Mittens and Dole are socialists?
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Another curious item is your claim that you voted for Obama (another is if you’re really an MD; Patrick displays more medical knowledge here, but I digress). What did you expect from him when you voted? You knew his Senate track record mostly mirrored the D party line but there are many corporate D politicians in the group too. When you voted, did you want Obama to follow the Liberal D party line, contrary to your conservative beliefs? Really? Or did you want him to follow corporate-friendly policies that are mostly R policies? Which he delivered in corporate-friendly HCR, so why are you whining?

Your posting is a…
Lame, Mostly Frivilous, Asinine Opinion?

Well Put Earl!

“”The Republican Tea Party 2010; Imagine These People Could Represent You.”

Of course, the obvious problem with that argument is that the Democrats are far kookier. Look at Barbara “Airhead” Boxer, Barney “My Boy Lollipop” Frank, John Conyers (whose wife was recently convicted), Charlie Rangel (who has been charged with ethical violations), Maxine Waters (ditto), Sheila Jackson Lee (who wondered if the Mars rover would be able to photograph the American flag planted by astronauts), Bernie Sanders, Carl “The Combover Kid” Levin, Henry “The Nostril” Waxman, Al Franken, etc. There has never been a large collection of nuts than the current batch of Democrats in Washington.

We know you’re here to stay. You’ve been around long enough to give us Reagan, Bush , another Bush, Newt Gingrich, monster defecits, two wars, supply side economics, and on and on. What other great ideas do you guys have in store for us? I need a heads up, so I can try and plan for your next disasters…I mean policies.

Michael,

You seem to be a bit clueless. Obama should have been engaging the Tea Party from the very beginning. The Democrats efforts to demonize the Tea Party is politics as usual and Obama claimed when he was running for office he was going to change the face of politics in Washington.
That was a bit of hubris on Obama’s part, but I think he can get back to basics by engaging the Tea Party and asking those who support its ideals (whatever they may be) what he should do to make the country better.
While I would call myself a Liberal, I actually sympathize with some of the Tea Party’s concerns. This country is run by elites, both Republican and Democrat, which seems more concerned about each’s main campaign contributors rather than ordinary folks. While I find some of their ideas to be a bit incoherent, most people, Liberal, Conservative or Moderate are concerned about too much government and too much debt. Where we disagree is what is the best way to address these problems.
Rather than label the Tea Party as “Kooky”, we need to engage these people and see if they have any real ideas. It is not enough to label Obama, “Socialist”, what would they have done to have saved the country from the financial crisis. Don’t forget the TARP program came from the Bush administration. Do they understand that the financial crisis was caused by the relaxing of governmental regulation of the banking industry over the past 30 years? Do they understand that the greatest government intrusion into our personal lives was the Patriot Act?
The typical Tea Partier mumbles about the Bush years when the Republicans were in control. I would like to know what they are willing to offer in the alternative.

We start by by cutting millions in these grants to unions and programs to assist illegal non English speakers!
!http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2010/09/20/cnbc_town_hall_questioner_to_obama_im_exhausted_of_defending_you.html

Nitwit, the tea party members see themselves as conservatives first. The Republican Party does have some conservative beliefs, so there would be some overlap. It’s tantamount to the Socialist Party and the Democrat Party having some overlap, even though they are two different entities.

Sorry Here’s the link to those partisan grants.
http://www.osha.gov/dte/sharwood/2010_grant_recipients.html
The other link shows a disgruntled Obama voter complaining to the chosen one in person.

“Nitwit, the tea party members see themselves as conservatives first.”
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And how do “conservatives” vote, @sshole? They vote Republican. They’re brainwashed tools of the corporatist right and are too ignorant and deluded to do anything else.

This is the great unknown question of the Tea Party. Will it continue to spread into the political center,

Good lord. “Continue”? Which Tea Partier represents the “center”, Mike? O’Donnell? Joe Miller? Sharon Angle? The Koch brothers? Dick Armey? Lady Quit Tah?

kevin has a good point here– there’s more going on here than just the horse race.
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If we want to discuss it, there’s a thoughtful examination of the Tea Party’s impact on the horse race at this link. It’s redundant to point it out, but of course Nate Silver emerged from the world of blogging– no one rises in the ranks of the MSM on that kind of evidence-based writing.

Probably O’Donnell. She seems to spend a LOT of time thinking about her center and how to handle it (literally).

Yes, and David Vitter, Sharon Angle, Christine O’Donnell (ok, those two might lose), and Rand Paul are such darlings. Seriously, both parties have whackos.

It’s probably the right approach for Obama to take. Obama has tried consistently to sell himself as a consensus builder and if he does things like that, he might be able to reclaim that title for many. The Dems can be partisan, but the President should at least pretend to be above it.

decon, the vast majority of physicians were for HCR, but this boondoggle thrown together by democrats is ANYTHING but reform. If anything, it gives insurance companies MORE power in determining how we practice medicine and will ultimately end up mirroring the disaster the English people are saddled with. If you think this is an improvement over what currently exists, you are badly mistaken. Obama promised change for the better and he flat out lied to the American people. We have never been more polarized and our 13 trillion dollar deficit, is increasing by over one billion dollars per day! He will soon bankrupt this nation.

The President’s comments about the Tea Party weren’t directed at the Tea Party. They were directed at independents who might find common cause with the Tea Party about deficits. He’s (shrewdly) showing the Tea Party some respect while at the same time asking a legitimate question: “Okay, you’ve got our attention. Now what, specifically, are you going to do?” The Tea Party can be a movement by raising issues, but it can’t be an effective force in American life without providing policies that address those issues. (And I hope and pray that the electorate doesn’t buy into the magical thinking about cutting yet-to-be-identified waste or promoting tax cuts that will through some miracle pay for themselves.) Mr Obama said recently of the Republicans “The forget I know how to politic pretty good.” Asking the Tea Party to provide some solutions to the problems they complain about is proof he’s right.

Michael, please tell us how the TPers are moving to the center.

This.

I think what Obama is saying here, and what Clinton has said, is far from “off message.” There are a lot of Democrats, and I see them comment here all the time, who respect the Tea Party’s drive, interest in politics and even some of their populist impulses, and we’ve long argued that though every group of people will have its fringe that we should be tapping the Tea Party energy to make some progress on those few issues where we might be able to agree. I thought Wall Street regulation might have been a good way to do that but the lobbyists beat both sides of the argument to the punch.

Anyway, Michael… I wonder why you view Obama’s more accepting vision of his political opponents as “off message” rather than as a welcome relief from the purposeless name-calling that’s defined the rest of this election cycle?

Earl, what change from Obama were you specifically looking for, seriously? Take HCR. You got a center-right pro-biz exchange that keeps HCI providers in place, albeit with the one positive change of banning pre-existings. Isn’t that what the pro-biz Right (and center-right corporate D’s like Baucus) wanted if any change had to happen? If you didn’t want govt. run socialism in HCR (I did and admitted it long ago), what did YOU want? Your corporate friends on the Right delivered the best compromise possible from the R’s world view, so I don’t understand your complaints.

Jon Stewart’s “squirrel” hypothesis goes a long way in explaining the behaviour of Pundit Michael Scherer.
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http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-september-13-2010/islamophobiapalooza
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Notice how Obama had a lot to say about the tea party, both good and bad. But the only thing that Michael Scherer noticed and promptly reported on, was the proverbial squirrel – that Obama went off-message!!

Besides, The “Democratic Message On The Tea Party” is, basically, “look at those people.” “I mean, seriously, look at those people.” The Teatards take care of the rest all by themselves.

This seems more like Obama calling their bluff.

I wish the press would have asked the TP’ers some of these questions.

…only if they sell out to commercially mainstream corporate types in addition to taking Koch money. Most Big Biz™ corporate brass are likely R’s, but watch mainstream consumer products cos. (like P&G, Coke / Pepsi, or Unilever, for good examples, NOT to pick on ‘em). Playing Hardball Conservative Politics™ might not fly with left-leaning consumers and vice versa. They play to the center in public to attract as many customers as possible. As long as you buy their stuff progressive or conservative labels don’t really matter. When the TP becomes Tea Party Inc.™ then the game is over.
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Actually, apr, with your living thru the ‘60’s, did those movements become more mainstream over time and fizzle out or not? I’m too young to remember directly but watching TV ads on youtube from back then they did feature more zeitgeist as time went on (Dodge Rebellion, psychedelicic ads, Coke’s “I’d Like to Teach the World to Sing”, etc.)? What happened to the peace / good time of Woodstock that later morphed into violence and Hells Angels at Altamont?

Here’s the deal: Liberals wants to be governed, and the rest of the country wants to govern themselves.

The TEA Party stands for people that are tired of government’s mostly liberal agenda, but also those RINOs dictating to us, and intruding into all areas of our lives.

We don’t need people like Barry, Nancy, Harry, Rahm, and their minions controlling everything from the economy to healthcare. These people are incompetent boobs. And, behind them are corrupt incompetent federal bureaucracies and cubicle workers.

You want some DMV worker telling you what to do, get a job there, the rest of the country can manage our own lives.

Government has shown over and over again that it cannot manage. Government programs are wasteful, full of corrupt, and fraud, and run by the laziest, most inefficient people on the planet, ie the “government worker.” Just go watch a city maintenance crew in “action.” Then compare it to a private industry crew. Do it as a service to your country.

When ever clever businessmen need loyal employees they recruit those that are sleeping under the bridge. Once a person experiences the chill and hunger that comes with sleeping without shelter, they will never bite the hand that feeds them. Hitler recruited his SS from the gutters of Berlin, they never forgot his kindness and were loyal until the end. No person is too proud to be a bootlicker,when horrible circumstances present themselves.

Does the Democrat party and its media arm (i.e., the Washington/New York/American/Arab press corps) contain any normal people or is comprised entirely of the leftist freakshow freak fringe, to wit: the pagans, the atheists, the Marxists, the socialists, the tree huggers, the earth worshippers, the flag burners, the draft dodgers, the American haters, the al Qaeda lovers, the race baiters, the race hustlers, the feminists (hahahahahahaha!) and the fundamentalist homosexualists?

…yeah, Enron did a fabulous job running things. How did that California electricity deregulation thingy work out?

…you forgot Zoroastrians and Transcendentalists.
(I wonder if lovely Amy got caught in any neo-transcendental debates while at Harvard Divinity School.)

“The Democratic National Committee sends out dozens of messages a week to make the case that the Tea Party crowd is kooky.”

Isn’t that like making the case that most automobile tires are round, that red objects tend to have the secondary quality of redness?

I’m starting to think contracting a mental illness is the best way to understand the Beckian and Palian message and platform.

“And how do ‘conservatives’ vote, @sshole? They vote Republican. They’re brainwashed tools of the corporatist right and are too ignorant and deluded to do anything else.”
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Sorry, Shep, but how do most “liberals-first” vote? You can’t mock the teapartiers for voting for what they perceive to be the lesser-evil party when that’s long been your own position about what libs should do at election time.
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Astro turf or nay, at least their side has a movement. We got nothing.

The most important changes we asked for in HCR, decon, was to remove the insurance industry from the powerful, controlling position they held, to make drug pricing more realistic to actual cost and for tort reform. We got NONE of the above and if anything, the physician has been removed further from the decision making process. Your ability to see the physician of your choice will be greatly impeded and NEW patients on medicare could find extreme difficulty in finding a doctor to treat them. This is improvement? I think not and if this monstrosity gets implemented, you will hear a howl of discontent from millions of affected Americans. (and rightly so, I might add)

Other than knocking off electable republicans and shake down a lot of people, I mean fundraise, what have the TPers accomplished?
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They may yet but as of now I remain unconvinced of exactly how mighty they really are.

Hey Obama, go ahead and blunt the one weapon the Democrats have going into this election.

I’m sure that will work out fantastic for you.

See you at the impeachment proceedings!

decon, I think we learned today that if you want to get textee to respond to you, you have to imply (or directly come out and say it) that he is not the most masculine of people.

Gosh, you’re right — some Democratic politicians aren’t going to win beauty contests. It’s almost like we elect the ones who are smart and hard-working, instead of electing a bunch of airhead dumbf#cks like the Republicans do.
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Look at our Vice Presidential candidates: I’ll take Joe Biden’s hairplugs as long as they go along with four decades of success fighting hard for the middle class, while you all keep throwing out mildly retarded cocker spaniels like Dan Quayle and Sarah Palin.
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It’s almost like Republican voters are shallow, ignorant f*ckwits.

Nice catch. In what way — seriously, name one — has the Tea Party even remotely come close to the center?

I’m convinced Rusty wins over an independent to the Democratic side with every comment he makes here.

You’re right — let’s disband the military and go back to a citizens’ militia. And hey, everyone can just be in charge of paving the road outside their house, too.
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Go to Somalia. It’s a conservative, government-free paradise. I’m sure you’d love all the freedom you’d have there to get shot, get sick, and get kidnapped. Remember, that’s just the magic of the free market at work!

Decon, IF the wacko liberals in the California legislature would remove some of the overly restritive laws against power plants and energy production, California could have cheap energy. Energy is what drives the production side of the economy. And NO, we ain’t gonna get there with whirlygigs and solar panels. Nuclear, gas and oh no, oil are SERIOUS producers of energy.

Here’s the deal: Liberals wants to be governed, and the rest of the country wants to govern themselves.
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The US Census came out with its annual report, the “Consolidated Federal Funds Report for Fiscal Year 2009: State and Country Areas” on how much the federal government spends on the 307,006,550 citizens who lived in America at the end of 2009. The state that received the most money per person was Alaska– $20,351

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http://247wallst.com/2010/08/31/the-states-where-america-spends-the-most-and-the-least-per-person/

“So, if you wish to send a message that Pelosi and her party [that they] cannot fail to hear, break their windows,” Vanderboegh wrote on the blog, Sipsey Street Irregulars. “Break them NOW. Break them and run to break again. Break them under cover of night. Break them in broad daylight. Break them and await arrest in willful, principled civil disobedience. Break them with rocks. Break them with slingshots. Break them with baseball bats. But BREAK THEM.”
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“The central fact of the health-care bill is this, and we find it tyrannical and unconstitutional on its face,” Vanderboegh said. “The federal government now demands all Americans to pay and play in this system, and if we refuse, we will be fined, and if we refuse to pay the fine, they will come to arrest us, and if we resist arrest . . . then we will be killed. The bill certainly doesn’t say that, but that’s exactly and precisely what is behind every bill like this.”
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Vanderboegh said he once worked as a warehouse manager but now lives on government disability checks. He said he receives $1,300 a month because of his congestive heart failure, diabetes and hypertension. He has private health insurance through his wife, who works for a company that sells forklift products.

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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/25/AR2010032501722.html

the secondary quality of redness
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Oh you crazy Lockeans….

The so-called Tea Party candidates in Kentucky and Nevada are polling even or ahead of the Democratic challengers. In Florida and Alaska, the Tea Party favored candidates are favored (though it is still early to know in Alaska) in three way battles. In Utah, the tea party candidate will win by a large margin. These candidates are getting support from independents in the center.

I guess Obama should say something about the TPs, and this seems about as good as any. What do you say? I have no idea. The TPs are too stupid and crazy to be fixed, and can’t be reasoned with as they have no reason. So, hey, ask for their solutions. We won’t hold our breath.

Support from the center does not make one a centrist. One’s policies being (relatively speaking) centrist make one in the center. In this case, the center just supports the far right instead of the center to far left in part because they’re feeling a tad anti-incumbant, in part because they don’t feel the Democratic Congress is doing what it should be doing and think they might have better luck with the right, and in part because half of the states you mentioned ain’t exactly classified as anything other than red states. Add on that both Alaska and Florida, the Independent candidate is considered to be, policy wise, between the tea party candidate and the democrat, that argument is ludicrous.
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Also, there is a world of difference between independent and centrist, as Stuart will gladly write a fully sourced encyclopedia-length entry for you on.

“These candidates are getting support from independents in the center”
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Google let me down. Could you point me to the polls you used that show independents breaking to the Tea Party candidate?
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Thanks.

liberalmeltdown, you are 100% correct! You can tell by the left wing squawking that you scored some major points in your commentary. If we keep plugging away, perhaps some sanity can be restored in our government. It only took 20 months for the Obama lies to unravel and I think Americans now have a clear perspective on how socialism will adversely affect their life.

The tea baggers are dumb white people who simply refuse to believe that Ozzie & Harriet & Leave it to Beaver were not documentaries.

Just because the moronic can work their faces into interesting expressions, it doesn’t mean something important is happening, that needs to be analyzed to death.

Bottom line: They are angry, frightened, and dumb; and Obama is afraid to piss them off.

Utah centerists? Michael what is your definition of the center?

By the way, thanks for responding Michael.

liberalmeltdown: In your world, do you do the actual road repair. If not, how is money raised for that repair? Is it based on property tax? Is there property tax? What funds your schools? Are they all private? You buy a drug, how do you know it is safe? Want to fly on a plane, who manages traffic control, your neighbor Joe? Who will make sure drivers are licensed? Will we have private entities control all our public infastructure? Who will have oversight? What will be the punishment for private corruption? Will the courts and prisons be outsourced? What will pay for them?
I am truly interested in the “Brave New World”.

Agreed. And the 2 stars now, Sarah and Christine, are cute women. Knock-outs. How do you deal with that? Maybe Bill can take them on. Obama isn’t up to the task of dealing with empty headed.

decon:
The 60s movements were not monolithic.
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Most important the civil rights and womens movement had lasting, positive effects.
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Remember, there was the silent majority Nixon talked about. I believe they are the many of the boomers of today who have sadly attached themselves to the most intolerant of the far right.
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The peace movement didn’t really become vocal until college students lost their deferments. Then it became personal. I opposed the Vietnam war from 63 on, never believing the domino theory anymore than I believed WMD. You know, fool me once.
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The Birch Society and McCarthyites may fade away for awile but they never go away.
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But, remember, my generation gave you Rock and Roll!

Hey sacredh

I would like some tea with Miss Sarah. Do you feel like joining us?

And I suppose you are a genius.

I’m thinking, no.

fhmadvocat,
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Good Post. I agree with much of what you said. What good does it do to demonize each other?
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I find Liberals very hard to engage on the issues. They always seem to operate on
“Their way or the Highway”.
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They are so positive that their way is right that anyone who holds a different opinion must be evil, a racist or anti-everything.
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None of us have all the answers. Together with some give and take we can come up with better answers than we can strictly on our own. That’s how a Democracy is supposed to work.

Apr, there is nothing “brave” or “new” about the Ayn Randian free market utopia that liberalmeltdown describes above. These are continuously recycled ideas that keep failing in the real world –
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Ayn Rand’s book is a work of fiction, but the delusional don’t seem to understand that. They seem to elevate it to the level of Gospel.

liberalmeltdown, with a handle like that, I am not surprised. May I suggest that you focus more on facts rather than labels? Or are you too turned on by the 2 hot chick bimbos to pay attention? Remember this. They, as well as the Pope, tell you masturbation is sinful, causes blindness, and drives you to insanity. Am I too late with that helpful information?

“You can’t mock the teapartiers for voting for what they perceive to be the lesser-evil party when that’s long been your own position about what libs should do at election time.”
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“Perceive” being the operate phrase there, jc. I don’t fault the Teadtards for their passion, I fault them for their brain-dead in-spite-of-observable-reality beliefs and blind, slobbering fealty to every anointed leader of the tribe, no matter how miserable. Liberals at least understand they’re going to be screwed when the make the choice. Ever hear a winger tell the unvarnished truth about Bush when he was in charge the way liberals do about Obama? False equivalency reflects lazy thinking.

Oh and BTW, that false equivalency doesn’t just apply to the right and left base. No matter how dyspeptic you may be about Obama (and no matter how many liberal Democrats are better at policy), name one professional Republican who’s fit to shine his shoes.

“‘Perceive’ being the operate phrase there, jc.”
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I dunno Shep, perception is a funny thing. How many liberals are aware that Koch Industries once donated to the DLC or sat on their executive council? How many liberals perceive inconsistencies between their dedication to civil liberties and peace during the Bush years and their acquiesence/support of Obama.
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“Liberals at least understand they’re going to be screwed when the make the choice”
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This may make liberals a lot of things but superior isn’t the first thing that springs to mind.
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Are you denying that many dems are just as guilty of fealty? As Charles Davis put it:
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“Liberal lore [has it] that the Democratic rank-and-file are more willing to stand up to their politicians than their mouth-breathing Republican counterparts — carbon-copies, I say — is just that: Lore. Fiction. Bullsh!t. The Netroots liberals are just as impressed by the pomp and prestige of the presidency, are just as worshipful of authority and liable to join a creepy cult of personality, as any conservative”
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Listen, I’m not denying the almost perfect overlap between Palinism and Bush-Cheneyism. Nor the teapartiers’ generally (h/t Taibbi) misdirected anger. Or for that matter, our side’s penchant for b!tchy support. If I were seeking an equivalent on the right, it’d be Ron Paul voters. Libertarians who had plenty of nasty things to say about Bush-Cheney for 8 years. But sadly that segment of conservatism is about as influential as non-partisan libs.

Yes the President didn’t attack, didn’t blame, wasn’t negative but very forward and direct.
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Time for the press to ask what they want.
Specifics please, not some nebulous less.

“Will it continue to spread into the political center,”
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Hmmmm….. when did it start to spread to the political center? What is center about Angle, Miller, Odonnell, Rand Paul?

“The Netroots liberals are just as impressed by the pomp and prestige of the presidency, are just as worshipful of authority and liable to join a creepy cult of personality, as any conservative”
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Don’t tell me you actually believe that. Little Green Footballs and Michelle Malkin = Kos and Digby. Get a grip, dude.
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I asked you two questions. Fergodsake, don’t answer them now. Have a drink (make it a double) and just think on it.

And here’s some social science that Davis may have missed:
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http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/
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Authoritarian-following is far from unknown on the left (see: Joe Klein) but it is a feature, not a bug, of the right.

apr, maverick, decon, et al, I can tell from the tone of your Ivory Tower posts that you actually believe that you are intellectuals, guess again. Unless you have a certificate from the Wizard, I’m not buying it and neither is anybody else. So, here’s a suggestion. GET REAL.

It’s obvious that you don’t know your head from your @ss.

The TEA party is not out to build a Utopia. THAT is a leftist ideology. I don’t think that governmental control is a Utopia, again THAT’S your ideology.

Just leave people alone as much as possible. What’s wrong with that? You just can’t handle it. You must control.

Why leave people alone…soon they would be doing thing we (us liberals) don’t approve of.

As for your silly analogies apr, the government has some duties to its citizens. Note, it’s NOT the other way around. The government (I feel like I am teaching elementary school) provides protection, that would be military, police, etc. It provides the means of transporting commerce, because people and government benefit from commerce.

Commerce is NOT bad. Commerce good, cave girl. It make possible trade, trade good, it make possible variety, variety good, it create possibility, possibility good, it create opportunity, opportunity good, it create wealth, wealth good, it raises up from the mud.

Some benefit more from protection, and some less. You cannot judge and decide what’s fair. For example: a community pays for military protection. They pay for protection based on income. With the highest income earner paying the most as a percentage of income.

An enemy launches a missile and kills the wealthiest member of the community (I put that in there just for you class envy enthusiasts). How is that fair?

If we had a leftist utopia, ala Al Gore, we would have someone preaching about Global warming, and lecturing how we all should conserve. We can have green jobs. It will be like a little Willy Wonka World. Meanwhile, Gore flies on airliners, has a mansion that burns $5000 per month in electricity, and lies like a polar bear rug.

Your socialist ideals are tired and have failed. Grow up.

“And I think that’s a good thing. I think there’s also a noble tradition in the Republican and Democratic parties of saying that government should — should pay its way, that it shouldn’t get so big that we’re leaving debt to the next generation. All those things, I think, are healthy.”

Yeah Obama, GOVERNMENT should pay its way? What the heck does that mean? Government collects money from US. Is this guy serious? Folks over there repressed folks…

Oh, you mean like repressive taxation. Yeah, like YOU folks. You try and push it off to the states. So now states are going bankrupt and raising taxes as your surrogate.

Skepticism is in our DNA? I don’t think so. Yes we can, change you can believe in, Hope and Change. Yeah DNA.

There are studies that show people will tend to believe lies 60% of the time. Hey, that’s enough to get elected.

I get it 48% of you don’t pay taxes, so you think it’s government money.

You really don’t understand at all. Go get a job, well if you can find one.

Really, you are very amusing. “Professional Republicans.” “Corporatist” Very, very Funny:

Near the end of the third day of this year’s Southern Republican Leadership Conference, it was time for Rep. Ron Paul (R-TX) to take the stage. Paul, fresh off his victory in the CPAC straw poll, gave a characteristically fired-up speech that took on the views of the Republican party establishment.

“The question has been raised about whether or not our president is a socialist,” Paul said. “I am sure there are some people here who believe it. But in the technical sense, in the economic definition of a what a socialist is, no, he’s not a socialist.” “He’s a corporatist,” Paul continued. “And unfortunately we have corporatists inside the Republican party and that means you take care of corporations and corporations take over and run the country.”

Paul said examples of President Obama’s “corporatism” were evident in the heath care reform bill he signed into law last month. He said the mandate in the bill put the power over health care in the hands of corporations rather than private citizens. But he said the bill wasn’t the only place where corporatism is creeping into Washington.

“We see it in the financial institutions, we see it in the military-industrial complex,” he said. And now we see it in the medical-industrial complex.”

You guys are very funny. HELLO. Where are you?

Just leave people alone as much as possible. What’s wrong with that?
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For example, by repealing a Glass-Steagall act? I thought you were against the repeal!! Glass-Steagall act was essentially a govt intervention in private commerce (banking).
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So now I dont know whether you are FOR govt intervention in commerce/trade or AGAINST it.
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So here is a suggestion, Make up your f#@#ing mind.

Teabaggers and their handlers had no problem whatsoever with Sharon Angle threatening to use “the second amendment option” if she loses. Glenn Beck, Sister Sarah and all were fully supportive of that. None will accept an interview with questions that were not divulged ahead of time.
Palin telling all of her coven to only speak through Fox News.

…..and this doesn’t bother you????

Rand Paul said he would not have supported the Civil Rights Amendment and Dick Army saying appearing on the Rachael Maddow Show was just a “Rookie Mistake”.

That doesn’t bother you???????

Christine O’Donnel and her Satanic picnic?

What?????

Saying Companies were crossbreeding humans with animals and have rats with fully functioning human brains…

What???
If she actually believes this garbage, some questions come to mind: What Company and why hasn’t she wanted to shut it down or burn it down? Does she want to know if the human-brain rats would vote Republican before she does anything?
or…Is she defending the companies right to do anything they damn well please without the big bad government interfering? Is she proposing regulation, heaven forbid?

Pick a tea party candidate and you will find some scary, fringe ideas. They wanted to declare “ground zero” sacred ground, which would theoretically prevent the building of an Islamic community center. What???
No problem with the strip clubs? Some of the 9-11 terrorists went out for a lapdance the night before. I guess that was more an all-american activity and is OK.

Call health care for the poor unamerican and against the sensibilities of a religious population? Sure, why not? Why not therefore refer to our Founding Slaveholders? They were just engaging in free enterprise, weren’t they? They didn’t steal any slaves, they paid for them and kept the receipt.

You know, Democracy is not two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.

“I get it 48% of you don’t pay taxes, so you think it’s government money.
 
“You really don’t understand at all. Go get a job, well if you can find one.”
 
Let’s see, falsely equate paying income taxes with paying taxes, then use this lie to smear your opposition. You know, when somebody gives the homeless guy on the street corner a buck and he buys a cup of coffee with it, in the city where I work, he pays 8.25% to the state for that purchase. Everybody pays taxes, and for the poorest people the bite is pretty big, percentage wise.
 
I both work full time for wages and have a growing small business, and I’m pretty far to the left. (Unlike classic liberals, I really do support European-style social democracy.) Your pretense that people who don’t agree with you are lazy leeches is just that: a pretense, and an offensive, polarizing one calculated to insult people based on false premises. But you’re not here to win anybody over, are you? You don’t even care if your side wins, so long as you get to vent your resentment and smug self-superiority on behalf of a tribalistic faction whose bogus talking points you are willing to retail without thinking. Great example of everything that’s wrong with U.S. politics today.

That’s your evidence that the Tea Party is moving to the center? They’re currently leading the polls in four red states and a purple one?
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Not only is that not evidence that they’re moving to the center, it’s also not evidence that they’re doing well.
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Those are conservative states, and a mainstream Republican would be doing even better there. Kentucky wasn’t even on the radar until the GOP nominated a teatard, and Nevada was assumed to be a GOP lock until they nominated a teatard. Florida and Alaska had slam-dunks in Crist and Murkowski, but now they’re on the table too thanks to the Tea Party coup.
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I can’t believe you actually get paid to do this, Michael, when you are so unbelievably horrible at it.

The TEA party is not out to build a Utopia.
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No, they just want a world in which everyone gets massive tax cuts AND the budget is balanced AND no one touches Medicare or all of the government programs they rely on.
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The TEA Party is filled with people who think unicorns are real.

“Hey sacredh

I would like some tea with Miss Sarah. Do you feel like joining us?”
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I’d do it in a second. I’d also like the tea to be broadcast live. I think I could run rings around her on just about any subject except self-promotion and fashion.

Paul,
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Ask and you shall receive.
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Los Angeles Times
September 20, 2010
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Independent voters, who broke heavily for President Obama in the 2008 election, have swung dramatically in the other direction and are now deeply dissatisfied with his job performance, the country’s direction and the overall state of American politics, a new poll finds.

A survey conducted for Independent Women’s Voice, a nonprofit, center-right group, also shows Republicans well-positioned to pick up independent voters in the midterm elections on Nov. 2.

A total of 40% of independents planned to vote Republican, compared with 18% who said they would vote for a Democrat, according to the survey, part of which was conducted Sept. 15-16.

At the same time, independents are proving sympathetic to the “tea party” movement. A total of 45% said they had a favorable view of the tea party, compared with 35% with an unfavorable view.
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http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/september_2010/52_of_voters_say_their_views_are_more_like_palin_s_than_obama_s

destor,
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Good honest post.
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Nice to see a Liberal with an open mind.

maverick,
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Talk about failure. Big Government under all its names is failing all over the world right now.
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Do a little current reading. Western Europe’s Social-Democracies are falling apart. Cuba and Venezuela are failing. Cuba is opening its markets to free enterprise and firing 500,000 government workers with another 500,000 to possible go in the future.
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Big Government doesn’t work. free enterprise combined with a smaller government is the only thing that has worked over time.

Derek,
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Keep demonizing and putting down the Tea Party. It only shows your ignorance.
.

For All You Liberals Crying About The Tea Party,
.
Independent voters deeply dissatisfied with Obama, poll says.
.
Survey conducted for the nonprofit Independent Women’s Voice also shows that Republicans are well-positioned to pick up independent voters in the November elections.
.
Los Angeles Times
September 20, 2010
.
Independent voters, who broke heavily for President Obama in the 2008 election, have swung dramatically in the other direction and are now deeply dissatisfied with his job performance, the country’s direction and the overall state of American politics, a new poll finds.

A survey conducted for Independent Women’s Voice, a nonprofit, center-right group, also shows Republicans well-positioned to pick up independent voters in the midterm elections on Nov. 2.

A total of 40% of independents planned to vote Republican, compared with 18% who said they would vote for a Democrat, according to the survey, part of which was conducted Sept. 15-16.

At the same time, independents are proving sympathetic to the “tea party” movement. A total of 45% said they had a favorable view of the tea party, compared with 35% with an unfavorable view.
.
Remember that song,
“Cry me a River, Cry me a River, I Cried a River over You.”

Read 22.4 for your answer.

Kevie,
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Do you pay any income tax? Do you have a full time job?
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Do you do anything that actually benefits our society?
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Do you give significantly of your own time and money to help the poor in our country and the world?
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Or are you just a taker?

Ricardo, what on earth are you talking about? O’s comments on the tea party were intelligent and pretty dead on.

maverick, I am talking about individuals.

You have rules for commerce. They should be as least restrictive as possible. A bank should be just that, a bank. Not an insurance company/broker/hedge fund/bank/derivative player/quasi-government agency backed by the taxpayers.

maverick, I am talking about individuals.
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First, let me say this: Unlike other wingnuts here, there are brief, fleeting glimpses of sanity and reason in your posts.
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Now tell me, in what way has this administration/govt has interfered with the rights of the individuals?
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You mean the individual mandate in HCR? Remember Obama was against that. But then, the flea-bitten blue dogs and the republicans in Congress are FOR anything that Obama is against. BTW, Mitt Romney is for individual mandate. I dont see the teatards protesting against RomneyCare!

driven,
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Let me guess. You’re a Liberal and you voted for Obama and you think Republicans leaders are evil.
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Congratulations you have just won the Partisan-Ideologue of the Year Award.
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As a prize you have won an all expense paid trip to the Mental Hospital of your choice.
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Your comments are so far over the top that you are obviously not a sane, rational person.

This happening while the most free-market, conservative, industrialized nation suffers the worst and as a nation is the primary culprit responsible for this recession. Canada, the socialist haven that it is, barely had a blip for its recession, had zero banks fail, had zero banks bailed out, had minimal issues with housing, and is boasting a better unemployment rate than the US after decades of being at double the American unemployment rate. What is the credited reason for Canada’s success? Because of it’s strong regulatory framework (particularly financial regulatory framework) and the refusal by the Canadian government for the last decade (including a heated battle at the turn of the millennium) to loosen said restrictions on the banks.
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Get a clue.

Oh, and did I mention that Canada’s one of the most strongly affected nations by the massive downturn in the US?

jcapan,
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Continue having an open mind. sherphadwrong is a hopeless case. He is a totally closed minded partisan-ideologue.
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For the good of our country and its citizens we need people to have an open mind.
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I may not always agree with you or you with me, but I do respect your opinion. You are an honest person.
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Arguing with shephaedwrong is like arguing with a brick wall only a brick wall is a little more logical.

Do a little current reading. Western Europe’s Social-Democracies are falling apart.
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Western Europe’s Social-Democracies Like Germany?
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Come out of your cave, Old man. Germany isn’t falling apart. The United States of America is falling apart – aided by 30 years of Reaganomics/Free market vodoo economics.
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As I said, Facts and Lady Gaga have a liberal bias.

And you don’t know what your talking about. Someone brainwashed you and you have become a closed minded Ideoloque.

Cute.
Your answer to specifics was: You’re crazy!
I forgot the intellectual heavyweight I was dealing with.

Well, you see those teabag examples as not all that extreme.

How could I top that?

Have a nice evening.

forgotten,
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So you can’t use the normal hero’s of Progressivism such as Western Europe, Cuba or Venezuela to support your views any longer. You are now down to using Canada as your hero example.
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Pretty soon you will be down to a small island in the Artic.

driven,
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I call them as I see em.