Running Against Pelosi, Obama

Buh, bye, conservadems. Don’t let the Capital doors hit you on your backsides on your way out.

Who is Edwards trying to fool?

How come no one in the media is referring to them as extremists, like the Tea Party?

What a shocker, Blue Dogs selling out the Dems!

LOSP – the Law of Self-Preservation – kicked in.

I bet this is one of the guys who think it makes perfect sense to blow up the bank by extending the tax cuts.

10 years from now when China is the world leader we can thank these self serving left, center and right politicians for their contributions.

Steve Hildebrand lets them have it!

http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2010/09/karls-campaign-notebook-democratic-strategist-steve-hildebrand-to-democrats-stand-up-and-lead-or-get.html

“Jonathan Martin of Politico reminds me that in 2008 Pelosi pushed Edwards for vice president.”
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Purely a political move to carry the state of TX, nothing more. Edwards and Pelosi both understand this.
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The reality is that Texans will not elect a liberal. It is a blue dog or nothing, living here, I will take a Blue Dog over what we currently have.
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Are we in the Dark Ages? You bet but, there isn’t going to be a miracle awakening. Being a Democrat in this state is far from easy.

They have many of the same attributes that extremists do. They are undercutting what the vast majority of people in their party want to do. Isn’t that a radical, extremist? Where is Lanny Davis? Someone needs to ask him.

These people see the handwriting on the wall…..Pelosi and Obama are extremely toxic to their well being. If you think this feeling is only germane to Texas, then you are badly mistaken. The distrust Americans have for government, starts with these two and it resonates across our entire country. Leadership? These two are clueless and many democrats are becoming quite cognizant of this fact,

The people are hardly awakening to the GOP and the TEA Party. What I see are people jumping of cliffs and are going to wonder what happened when the hit the bottom.

I tweeted this and hat-tipped you, Derek.
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Excellent.

“They are undercutting what the vast majority of people in their party want to do. Isn’t that a radical, extremist?”
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Much like you Derek! The vast majority of the party do not want the GOP in power. When you choose not to vote you allow that to happen. It all is a matter of numbers nothing more. The politicians read your attitude and react to it. Your not voting, they don’t care. It is as simple as that.
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You are radical and an extremist. No hat tip from me.

“You are radical and an extremist. No hat tip from me.”

I’m a pragmatist, a radical empiricist.That’s what pragmatism is.

Nancy Pelosi Speaker for a Congress that has what, approval rating in the teens? They thought her healthcare bill was great, all the while America was saying no, NO! But, they rammed it down our throats.

This guy seems like he represents what his constiuents want, refused to cave.

The problem the democrats have in the bigger picture is that most of them voted with the ultra liberal Nancy Pelosi.

By the way those of you that support the healthcare bill, please explain what’s in it. Or, ask Nancy. Maybe she knows NOW. I’m kidding…she doesn’t know.

Can’t do it with stars in your eyes. You have to get off your rear end Derek.
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I urge all my Republican Reps to vote the way you would like them to and then tell them I’ll vote against them if they don’t.
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Most times it is the lesser of two evils but, it is all the power I have. I’ll use it. I’ll get more done. Slowly TX is becoming Democratic, that is less Republican.It will not be Liberal in my life time but, we do what we can.

…hey, let’s just listen to Palin and the failed GOP, and go back to cut taxes / cut govt that we tried for the 3 decades of the Reagan/Bush era. In fact, let’s get ANOTHER big tax cut to the wealthiest as we did in 1981 and 2001.

I mean, that worked SO well to deliver Trickle Down prosperity. Almost nobody is unemployed now. And the banks and oil companies and health insurers, heck – they POLICED THEMSELVES!!! Get government out of the WAY by golly!

Abe Lincoln would have said;
“You can fool some of the people, ALL of the time”… ;^)

– Balkingpoints / www

It’s all so very simple. Things have changed to make it unwise to run with Him so they decide to run against Him. It’s as easy as that; sometimes they call it politics as usual to make sure we understand it.

“I’m a pragmatist, a radical empiricist.That’s what pragmatism is.”
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Hmmm. I have to admit, I’m more convinced by allthings’ “pragmatism.” Yours seems somewhat…passive-aggressive.
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Do I have it right that you’ve decided that the public-at-large is so off-kilter that it needs a major shock – radical Republican rule – to right itself and demand more progressive leaders? If so, why didn’t the 2001-2006 period do the trick? Also too, don’t you think it’s a wee bit risky, especially if you think current circumstances are worse? As you know, in times of such stress, things are just as likely to turn radically in the wrong direction in very short order.
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Mainstream Republicans aren’t all that shy about notions of treason right now.

I rely on a theory of knowledge that puts sensory perception front and center and tips it’s hat to experience. A methodology which adopts a skeptical attitude toward a priori reasoning or revelation. I test my theories against reality, and decide what I think is the best course of action, based mainly on reason and the things themselves. I admit to a naive belief in reason but I really don’t know what else to latch on to. The things I think need to be done to solve our problems happen to be considered radical at the moment. I can’t bring myself to accept halfway solutions, watered down by ideology and mysticism. The center says here are a million centrist things we did and you are complaining about the one left-wing thing we didn’t do. You are the extremist, not us who got everything we wanted but refuse to give you even one. I give preference to rational problem solving, and have grown resentful of red necks always getting their way. Practical, rational problem solving deserves a seat at the table.

“It will not be Liberal in my life time but, we do what we can.”

Do you believe in problem solving in Texas All, using reason to solve problems, breaking problems up into smaller parts and all that? That’s all liberalism is.
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It’s just stupid what is going on now. We have decades of empirical data we can rely on but idiots are driving the agenda and the centrists agree with them.

Big Government programs are what caused the financial meltdown…Listen to Barney Frank; he knows:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2010/08/21/barney_frank_comes_home_to_the_facts_106844.html

For years, Frank was a staunch supporter of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the giant government housing agencies that played such an enormous role in the financial meltdown that thrust the economy into the Great Recession. But in a recent CNBC interview, Frank told me that he was ready to say goodbye to Fannie and Freddie.

“I hope by next year we’ll have abolished Fannie and Freddie,” he said. Remarkable. And he went on to say that “it was a great mistake to push lower-income people into housing they couldn’t afford and couldn’t really handle once they had it.” He then added, “I had been too sanguine about Fannie and Freddie.”

When I asked Frank about a long-term phase-out plan that would shrink Fannie and Freddie portfolios and mortgage-purchase limits, and merge the agencies into the Federal Housing Administration (FHA) for a separate low-income program that would get government out of middle-income housing subsidies, he replied, “Larry, that, I think, is exactly what we should be doing.”

Maybe someone should ask Chet Edwards why he is a Democrat.

I expect a Texas Democrat to pander on guns, but the health care bill? Cap and trade? If you believe those are bad, why are you a Democrat?

Seriously. If a Nixon-Dole style health care bill too liberal for you, and if a market-based approach to curbing pollution is to socialist, why the Hell are you a Democrat?

By the way All why don’t you explain the economic benefits of giving the wealthy a tax cut at this point in time, like these so called southern “centrists” insist we do? What will be the positive impact of that move, right now, on unemployment? Both parties have essentially abandoned growth and you are mad at me because I simply won’t get in line to cheer more of it on.

I admit to a naive belief in reason but I really don’t know what else to latch on to.
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It’s not naive to believe in reason nor should you replace it with something else that must, by comparison, be inferior. But reason allows us to understand human psychology and behavior, to a large extent at least. Our “public problem” can be easily explained by certain social forces, especially corporate lobbying of Congress and corporate corruption of the courts and our public media. Pragmatism suggests that we should try to address those root causes – especially during this period of citizen journalism and the extreme weakness of the corporate-controlled media – and keep making the only political choice we’ve ever had: the lesser of evils. Even if I understand the psychology of it, I don’t understand the pragmatism of not making that choice.

“By the way All why don’t you explain the economic benefits of giving the wealthy a tax cut at this point in time, like these so called southern “centrists” insist we do”
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Because I don’t believe there is a benefit and I let my Reps know that. Why do you pretend otherwise? I know I have a choice between a right wing and a less right wing no matter the party. I’ll take the less right wing, because that is the choice I have. The next time I’ll take the even less right wing.
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You talk about reason? I fail to see yours. Let the people suffer. You don’t see the benefit of 36 million people having some form of access to Health care with some Government assistance? Perfect? No. Better than nothing, ask those who are to benefit.
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You just seem to want to throw it all away but, I guess you are covered, correct? You have yours? Correct. If they caucus with the Dems then they are subject to the caucus. If you do not like the results write your Reps and tell them to apply some discipline. Sometimes these people are allowed to vote against things because there are enough votes to carry what the Party wants to do. Some of these people talk the way, because they know they can’t get it anyway, to look good to their progressive voters.
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Your reason seems to be, I want it, to hell with the rest of you.
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It is called Democracy by the way.

Are you talking about democrats following Obama off the cliff, allthings? From my perspective, this is what many of them are doing.

“Even if I understand the psychology of it, I don’t understand the pragmatism of not making that choice.”
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It’s not just me. There are millions of people staying home. The 36% unemployment rate among youth might help explain. The 20% among blacks and hispanics. The continuance of Bush’s foreign policy. The compromising, with an obstructionist opponent. There are a hell of a lot more people making the choice than just me. It’s sad too because I don’t think it would take much to win some of the disaffected over. The party seems completely oblivious to the dissatisfaction that is out there. Maybe it because the tea party is soaking up all the energy. They should stop pretending to be agents of change if they don’t want people to get disappointed? It isn’t a big tent when only one group drives the agenda. A group that has the nerve to mock all the others when in fact they are the real extremists.

“You don’t see the benefit of 36 million people having some form of access to Health care with some Government assistance? Perfect? No. Better than nothing, ask those who are to benefit.”
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No, there I see Derek’s pragmatism perfectly. Corporatist, centrist policy to address a social problem is: 1) immediately corrupt (because it’s written by/for corporate interests), 2) has a higher probability of failure (see: 1)) and 3) leads to public disillusionment of both government and progressive policy (when centrist policy is falsely characterized as progressive). IOW, long-term, all problems are made worse by choosing bad policy (even the “lesser of evils”) to try to solve serious social problems. Not the same as choosing representation at all

“It’s not just me. There are millions of people staying home.”
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Pragmatist safety in irrational numbers. That doesn’t sound right.

I thought that you Dems had a big tent, were tolerant and all that. Guess not.

But, thanks for the lecture. Now, you can can it.

Congressional Republicans: 20% approval, 68% disapproval.
http://www.pollingreport.com/cong_rep.htm
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Congressional Democrats: 30% approval, 58% disapproval.
http://www.pollingreport.com/cong_dem.htm

“No, there I see Derek’s pragmatism perfectly.”
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I am a little confused here as Derek is Anti-Pragmatic. I see no pragmatism in saying it isn’t enough take it back without a chance in hell of getting anything better. It is cold, hard and, no better then the GOP saying no.
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I ask you to ask those who may benefit if it is bad policy and they don’t want it.
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I simply do not understand how you can say we want more take it back when you are not affected. I presume you have health care of course. Of course you must protect the progressives from the public being disillusioned from their policies, with that attitude I am already disillusioned, upset, dismayed how you care more for policy then you do people.
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Frankly I do not care about power, I care about progress, small or large as long as we move forward. we are not going to do that by reversing health care.
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Bad policy is doing nothing.

“Pragmatist safety in irrational numbers. That doesn’t sound right.”

There is no reason to reward failure. If failure is not rewarded maybe failure will not be pursued. I can’t think of a scientific metaphor where half a solution to a problem is the best solution. All’s philosophy is to reward failure, no matter what, because there is no other choice. We can’t possible effect that pattern so we need to simply accept it. I also can’t think of a business analogy where the customer is blamed if they don’t like what is being served.

No earl I am talking about people voting out of anger. I understand the urge but, the doing anything out of anger usually ends in bad results.
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I am not following Obama, he is where he is because I voted for him, I put him there, and I expect him to do more and, I let him know. So blame me for his policies, fact is I work to push him further. I blame you for the the extreme right it only fair we treat each other equally.
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“I can’t think of a scientific metaphor where half a solution to a problem is the best solution. All’s philosophy is to reward failure, no matter what, because there is no other choice”
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How about evolution? Look at the human race and the progress it has made over the eons. Come on Derek get real. Watch a Baby grow up.
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You reward failure, I reward progress small as it is. You will never make progress, I will make it and, you will claim it.

Getting angry, allthings, does not mean that one has to act irrationally and I think in this sense, our anger can be used for the good of the country. We obviously have different perspectives and I respect your point of view, but I think our country is heading down a dangerous path and apparently millions of Americans share this same thought.

No earl they are angry they rate they Rate the GOP lower than they Do The Dems. They think they can punish then control. The GOP thinks it can control the TEA Party and the Independents think they can control the GOP. What happens is the nuts get elected for 2-6 years and are as hard as hell to get out of office.
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It is anger earl.

“I simply do not understand how you can say we want more take it back when you are not affected. I presume you have health care of course.”
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I didn’t say I wanted to “take it back,” I said that sometimes bad policy can be worse than no policy, especially if it’s ineffective and also winds up undermining public trust in government. What if Republicans end up “taking it back” because the insufficient law is so easily distorted and demonized by industry and the right wing? Ever take that into account?
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I can afford medical bankruptcy insurance and routine, out-of-pocket care, if that’s what you mean. Who the f#ck isn’t affected?

From your brainstrust The World Socialist Website. Maybe this will make you feel better, but I doubt it:

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/sep2009/pers-s05.shtml

As the Wall Street Journal notes, the FDIC’s policy of engineering bank takeovers at public expense “amounts to a subsidy for dozens of hand-picked banks.”

The vast concentration of financial power is the result of a deliberate policy of both the Bush and Obama administrations. It is one component of a program to utilize the financial crisis precipitated by the speculation and profiteering of the major banks to carry out a massive restructuring of the US economy in the interests of the most powerful sections of the financial elite.

It goes hand in hand with an unprecedented attack on the jobs and wages of the working class, Obama’s proposals to slash health care for millions of workers, and preparations for an historic assault on core entitlement programs such as Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security. The aim is to place the full burden for the capitalist crisis on the working class and permanently lower working class living standards.

Obama’s forced bankruptcy of General Motors and Chrysler was a milestone in this process. Just as with his health care proposals, it was dictated by Wall Street veterans in the Obama administration and corporate lobbyists. The destruction of health benefits for hundreds of thousands of retired auto workers and their families is a preview of the health care cost-cutting plans that are currently being debated in Congress.

Under these conditions, the bank regulatory overhaul being touted by the Obama administration can be nothing other than a travesty. The Obama administration is an instrument of the most powerful Wall Street interests, and neither can nor will impose any real limits on either the speculative and profit-gouging practices of the banks or the colossal compensation packages which the bankers award themselves

“There is no reason to reward failure. If failure is not rewarded maybe failure will not be pursued. I can’t think of a scientific metaphor where half a solution to a problem is the best solution.”
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Man, you went from a rational, problem-solving pragmatist to a social scientist just like that. And an elected representative isn’t a solution, half or otherwise, just a vehicle. I’d rather have the slightly more reliable vehicle and you should too.

“What if Republicans end up “taking it back” because the insufficient law is so easily distorted and demonized by industry and the right wing? Ever take that into account?”
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Yes it is a concern especially because people like Derek will withhold his vote or otherwise talk negative about the policy which will allow the GOP to gain control. Think about that?
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The major problem with the law is that it takes until 2014 to become fully implemented. No matter what we do, or would have done, it would have taken at least as long. That is a long time for attacks, it doesn’t help that the progressives are acting they way they are not voting etc. There has to be a more positive approach.
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Derek believes in shock and awe, one big victory, it is not realistic.

“Yes it is a concern especially because people like Derek will withhold his vote or otherwise talk negative about the policy which will allow the GOP to gain control. Think about that?”
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Yes, I suppose that if there’s one thing everyone can agree on, it’s that when centrists enact corporatist policies that are easily demonized by the right and independents wind up not being able to tell sh!t from Shinola, it’s always the fault of liberals.

“”There is no reason to reward failure. If failure is not rewarded maybe failure will not be pursued. I can’t think of a scientific metaphor where half a solution to a problem is the best solution.”"
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“Man, you went from a rational, problem-solving pragmatist to a social scientist just like that. And an elected representative isn’t a solution, half or otherwise, just a vehicle. I’d rather have the slightly more reliable vehicle and you should too.”
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I take pragmatism in the original or philosophical sense of the term. To me it is rational to rely on facts when trying to solve a problem. For example, the facts show me that single payer is the best way to provide health care to the most people, for the least amount of money. I have decades of data to rely on in order to know how to deal with recession. The CBO released a study showing how even the pathetically compromised public option could lower costs and yet those of us who wanted it are called radical extremists and those opposed “pragmatic.” You are now a radical extremist because you want to find ways to lower costs? Obama had to admit the other day that health costs are going up, not down. Now the so called pragmatists in the party have decided this is a time for austerity in fiscal policy, when the facts show the opposite. However, once again, the empiricists are the ones called extreme and the people who are condemning millions of people to the economic scrap heap for years to come, practical. They don’t even have to explain what real benefit spending 700 billion on the wealthy will provide. It is simply taken as an unexamined article of faith that it is a good thing.
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Look it, if you guys insist that I go out and reward the gravy train of stupidity, I will reconsider. It just seems to me that if these idiots think the gravy train is ending they may reconsider their irrational approach to problem solving. However, I think they simply derive too much joy from poking us in the eye, knowing they can always rely on the old “yes but we are not as bad as them” argument and emotional appeals to loyalty to get them by.

“it’s always the fault of liberals.”
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Oh stop feeling sorry for yourself.
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I do not know where you folks live, maybe there you can afford to mope, here we can’t. It is an uphill fight all the way. The same in LA, AL, MS, NC, SC, FL, AZ, NV, AK, WY, AR, OK. Every vote is needed.
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As far as easy demonizing, it seems to me they do a good job on the best of policies, that is one reason you didn’t get what you want.
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Your upset the Dems had 60 votes and didn’t deliver what you wanted. Fact is we never had 60 votes for Universal Health Care, or a public option. What we had was 60 people who agreed to compromise with each other. That is it. The other 40 said screw you. Those are the ones you need to go after.

“I take pragmatism in the original or philosophical sense of the term. To me it is rational to rely on facts when trying to solve a problem. For example, the facts show me that single payer is the best way to provide health care to the most people, for the least amount of money”
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Yes you are correct but, you can not deliver it at this time. That is also a fact.
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My whole life Health Care has been in the wings, this is as close as we have come. At least now you have something to build on. I do not think you understand the complexity of the problem; 300 million people don’t agree on much.
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I want Universal Care, you want Universal Care, shep wants Universal Care, and we can not agree on the best way forward. That is also a fact.
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What I know is that here in TX and those other places I have mentioned we can not elect a person who will support Universal Health Care. That is a fact. Some day, hopefully, but today? No.

Kevin,
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“Congressional Republicans: 20% approval, 68% disapproval.”
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“Congressional Democrats: 30% approval, 58% disapproval.”
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Kevin nice job of cherry picking the data.
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Remember the truism “Figures Don’t Lie, But Liars Use Figures”.
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You reference the only Current Poll that shows Republicans under 30%.
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You use only the one poll that supports your views rather then the many Polls shown on your link.
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To get a more accurate poll average I used the techniques I learned in my college “Statistics Courses”.
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I took the most current polls from your link, last 5 months. I discarded the highest and lowest polls and then averaged the rest.
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The results showed Republicans at 31%
Democrats at 34%.
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If we allow for statistical error, there is not a lot of difference between the two.
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The data does not indicate anything of significance.
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Now Kevin we have Facts to look at rather misleading data.

“Look it, if you guys insist that I go out and reward the gravy train of stupidity, I will reconsider. It just seems to me that if these idiots think the gravy train is ending they may reconsider their irrational approach to problem solving.”
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I’m not going to tell you what to do. The point is someone is going to decide these things for you and you can exercise some power, perhaps, over whether it’s a centrist idiot like Obama or a right-wing idiot like McCain. Or not. But I would lose the “rewarding them” with your vote concept, you put yourself in a no-win emotional box there. BTW, what good will it do to get them to “reconsider their irrational approach” if you’ve already voted – or not voted – them out of power?

“Your upset the Dems had 60 votes and didn’t deliver what you wanted. Fact is we never had 60 votes for Universal Health Care, or a public option. What we had was 60 people who agreed to compromise with each other.”
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Don’t be naïve. If you plan to fight for maximal progressive policies, you don’t hire Rahm Emmanuel for you Chief of Staff and Larry Summers as your chief economic adviser. Obama chose the centrist way from the beginning, either because that’s what he believes in or out of perceived political necessity and then, at least with regard to claiming to champion a public option, he lied about it. Now he’s got ineffective centrist policy to show for it and all the political fallout that comes with it.
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Obama chose not to lead a fight for the best policy. He chose not to use the bully pulpit to make a populist case for progressive policy when he has the perfect chance, as centrist policies brought the world to the brink of absolute disaster. That’s the liberal complaint, just in case you’re actually interested in knowing.

“Obama chose not to lead a fight for the best policy. He chose not to use the bully pulpit to make a populist case for progressive policy when he has the perfect chance, as centrist policies brought the world to the brink of absolute disaster. That’s the liberal complaint, just in case you’re actually interested in knowing.”
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I agree and am very well aware of that. It is very disappointing. Who you got to run against him? That is what I told him last I wrote him. I told him that ” if there was anyone else to vote for I would vote against him but, there isn’t and, you know it so, go ahead and ignore this letter.”
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allthings,
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“No earl they are angry they rate they Rate the GOP lower than they Do The Dems.”
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Real Clear Politics poll summary currently shows:
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Generic Congressional Vote Poll average shows that voters said they would vote for Republicans rather then Democrats by a margin of +5%.
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This was a summary of current polls from 9 different polling organizations.
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http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/generic_congressional_vote-901.html

Kevin,
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You might want to look at post 8.6 above for some current insight on the numbers.

Well that is what I said 3xfire The Dem approval ratings are higher than the GOP.
Dem 33%
GOP 32%
http://www.gallup.com/poll/142898/Job-Approval-Ratings-Low-Parties-Congress.aspx
They are trying to punish, they do not like the GOP or their policies.

allthings,
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“Well that is what I said 3xfire The Dem approval ratings are higher than the GOP.
Dem 33%
GOP 32%
http://www.gallup.com/poll/142898/Job-Approval-Ratings-Low-Parties-Congress.aspx
They are trying to punish, they do not like the GOP or their policies.”
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allthings. I know you’re very frustrated and if I were in your shoes I would be to.
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But let’s be honest with the facts. There is no statistical difference between 33% and 32%.
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The fact is that the public doesn’t hold either party in very high esteem at the moment.
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The public is especially unhappy with Obama and the Democrats because of the economy and the perception that they have passed bills and spent way too much money even though a majority of the public were against these actions. They feel the Administration and Democrats should have made jobs and the economy priority number one rather then forcing their agenda down the throats of the public.
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The feeling is that the Administration has acted like Elitists and not been responsive to the public.

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Perhaps you would perfer that I use the NYT/CBS poll of 9/15/10?

Dems 30
GOP 20
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http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/09/15/politics/main6870169.shtml?tag=contentMain;contentBody

“BTW, what good will it do to get them to “reconsider their irrational approach” if you’ve already voted – or not voted – them out of power?”
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I meant the next time they get power they may decide it is not wise to completely exclude the Left the way Obama has. They may decide that the Left deserves as much attention as the red neck Democrats who at the moment are the only one the so-called centrists are willing to compromise with. The Left is paid attention to when the party needs money and vote. The rest of the time they are used as a punching bag when the corporate wh@ores in the party are trying to puff up their right-wing or centrist credentials.

And so we have come full circle.. Derek you take it too personal.

I meant to add that the right makes the same argument.

“Derek you take it too personal.”
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I prefer the America of Pierce or James to Beck and Palin, or even half way there, but I’ll hold my nose and try to decide which are the best of the poor options.

I meant Peirce.

Derek do what you have to do.

“I’ll hold my nose and try to decide which are the best of the poor options.“

Who ever told you life was fair?
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– Dad

Sorry Derek, you know I really do feel your pain.

allthings,
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Read 9.2
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The 20 -30 numbers are outside statistical analysis when you consider all the major polls.
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I think the Democrats did have a significant higher trust rating Pre-Obama. Obama’s agenda has been perceived by the American public as moving too far towards Big Government. A major problem for the Democrats is that the public doesn’t like the direction Obama is taking our country. When you combine this with unemployment and the economy it’s a difficult situation for Democrats this year.
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None of us know what the future will bring.

Ok here are some more.

AP Congressional approval/disapproval
Dems 38/60
Reps 31/68

CBS/NY Times, 9/15

Dems 30/58
Reps 20/68

ABC/WaPo, deserve reelection

Dems 34
Reps 31