Death-Penalty Case in Virginia Raises Questions

Count me among those in the camp that says she should be executed with all possible haste. She paid two men to execute her husband and stepson. I have zero sympathy for her. Fry her ass or shoot her up and get it over with.

As for her religious conversion, I take that with a grain of salt, even if true. Sounds like she can be convinced to believe whetever an authority figure wants her to.
.
If the conversion is genuine, that’s between her and her Maker.

I’m against capital punishment in all cases largely because I think it’s too much power to entrust to the government but this is probably not going to play out as a compelling case for clemency.

“As for her religious conversion, I take that with a grain of salt”
.
More like a whole shaker. She pays to have two people murdered and then finds Jesus? Too f’ing late b!tch. It costs a ton of money to keep people in jail. Use the money saved to put some kids through college or help homeless veterans.
.
“yet some say her execution would be anything but just”
.
People have the right to express an opinion. I have the opinion that allowing her to live is completely unjust. I don’t care if she found Jesus or a winning lottery ticket. Neither has anything to do with the fact that two people are dead and buried because of her.

The death penalty is a barbarous anomaly practiced in literally no other Western democratic states.

I’ve never thought that religious conversion or “past service to the community” should be any basis for escaping punishment.
.
If you are going to petition for leniency or acquittal, it should be on the basis that YOU DIDN’T COMMIT THE CRIME.

State sanctioned executions corrupt society.
.
The same way state sanctioned torture does.

“If you are going to petition for leniency or acquittal, it should be on the basis that YOU DIDN’T COMMIT THE CRIME.”
.
I agree. If they had beaten her or otherwise tortured her, I could understand some degree of leniency. If some intruder broke into my house and cut off my arms, it wouldn’t matter to me if he was sorry later. It wouldn’t matter to me if he found God and wanted to spend the rest of his life doing community service. My arms would still be gone and my life shattered. I’d want him executed or at least locked up for life. Some crimes are just so heinous that they deserve the ultimate punishment.

“It costs a ton of money to keep people in jail.”
.
The death penalty costs more.
.
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty
.
Of all the reasons for supporting the death penalty, the cost of it shouldn’t be the deciding factor.
.
For what it’s worth, I’m against the death penalty for the sole reason that committing an immoral act to counter a previous immoral act is not justice, its vengeance. “Thou shalt not kill” doesn’t have an asterisk after it.

Pnnto: I think that society is already corrupt and is likely to stay that way until society itself no longer exists. I can respect those who are against the death penaly on moral grounds. I can understand their arguments. None of that will change my opinion however. Child rapists/murderers, serial killers and others of their ilk have set themselves apart from society in my opinion and given up their rights.They can’t die soon enough for me.

You can’t un-ring a bell.

You take my point to be corrupt or nor corrupt?
.
There are degrees.
.
And as was pointed out the dollars and cents argument doesn’t hold up.
.
If you want vengence, well that’s certainly an honest position.

I’m all for conversion, but the converted must still pay for the crime and I’m sure they know that. Now as to whether the death penalty per se does anything other than make the victim’s families temporarily feel better (’cause it sure doesn’t serve as a deterrent), that’s highly debateable.

momentomori: I know the costs of executing a person are sky-high. I’m also in favor of streamlining that process when there is no doubt about the guilt of those convicted. “Thou shalt not kill” are truly words to live by, but when a person kills, the last thing I would ever do is apply morals that I have to someone that doesn’t have them. I feel they have given up their humanity. I know I’m draconian in my views on this. Probably 99% of my views are based on “live and let live” and tolerance, but I can’t see myself ever changing my opinion of this subject. I respect your view, I just don’t share it.

“They can’t die soon enough for me.”
.
Tell that to Cameron Todd Willingham
.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cameron_Todd_Willingham
.
How many other innocent men have been executed before we had the benefit of forensic science? How many more innocent men do we need to execute before our vengeance is no longer worth the cost?
.
Until we have 100% effective justice system, we’ll never have a guarantee we’re not murdering an innocent man. A lifetime is prison, never to see the light of day, works for me until then.

Pnnto: No, I don’t take your position to be corrupt at all. It’s probably much more moral than my own. The costs of executing a person are outrageous. I realize that my point about the costs doesn’t hold up, that’s why I’d like to see the costs streamlined. I think the veneer of civilization is a thin one. We’re intelligent animals. Our nature is still animal with animal instincts. Miss three meals and we’re a whole ‘nother ball game.

“Tell that to Cameron Todd Willingham”
.
momentomori: I did qualify my position with “I’m also in favor of streamlining that process when there is no doubt about the guilt of those convicted”. I should have said that I’m in favor when the forensic evidence leaves no doubt. Confessions and eye witness accounts would also be ideal.

I really don’t mean to offend everyone else, but the death penalty is one of the things I’m very passionate about, just as it’s opponents are.

We’ve watched too many Eastwood Westerns, DMD. (nothin’ against Clint)

“the last thing I would ever do is apply morals that I have to someone that doesn’t have them”
.
You’re not. You’re adopting his morality that murder is acceptable, if it accomplishes your desires.
.
I was pro-death penalty to neutral-death penalty for years. It was really the case of Cameron Todd Willingham, and research into other death penalty cases, that turned me around. Its very hard to support the death penalty given our imperfect justice system.
.
Blackstone’s Ratio: “Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer”.

MM @ 5.3: Plus it’s cheaper.
I don’t think anyone seeing a convicted murderer’s death from a shot thinks that it equals what the murderer did (shooting, mutilation, etc.)

“I really don’t mean to offend everyone else, but the death penalty is one of the things I’m very passionate about, just as it’s opponents are.”
.
None taken, sacredh. And I hope none is given. Its a hard topic to approach dispassionately. I appreciate your point of view.
.
You might be able to convince me, if it was limited to the Dahmers and John Wayne Gacys of the world – where there’s a 100% demonstration of guilt and the criminal is a dangerous and unrepentant psychopath – but that would result in far fewer executions than we’re currently committing. Cameron Todd Willingham should have never been a death penalty case in the first place.

shot = injection

“You’re not. You’re adopting his morality that murder is acceptable, if it accomplishes your desires.”
.
Point taken. I can’t really even argue with it. We’re all flawed individuals and this is one of mine. If someone murdered my wife, I’d hunt them down and kill them if I could. If a jury sentenced me to death for my actions, I would pay for my deed. If they let me off or sentenced me to life, I would just have to accept that too.

Agree with m0mentom0ri and hope no offence is taken.
.
So IF a cost effective way were to come about and IF one were 100% sure of guilt and the state executes what is the benefit to the country/society?

“If someone murdered my wife, I’d hunt them down and kill them if I could”
.

Even in this serious discussion there HAS to be a MIL joke to be had somewhere.

“None taken, sacredh. And I hope none is given. Its a hard topic to approach dispassionately. I appreciate your point of view.”
.
I’m not offended at all. It’s an interesting discussion on a very emotion driven subject. Not that it means much, but a part of me knows that my position is morally wrong. I know that two wrongs don’t make a right, but there are some things that are driven less by logic and more by emotion.

“Even in this serious discussion there HAS to be a MIL joke to be had somewhere.”
.
WHY did you have to open that can of worms? A couple of things have happened in the last week that I’m DYING to relate but they’re just too ignorant for me to admit too. Hard to believe, huh?

Isn’t every soldier or policeman carrying a gun a walking exercise in government sponsored summery capital punishment? Isn’t every war that ever happened one big sloppy capital punishment plan?
-
Yeesh, people. Does this mean one Conquistador with a flintlock could have declared North America the property of Spain in a perfect, enlightened, non-violent, turn-the-other-cheek world? What kind of double standard reality are we preaching here?

Not to pile on, here, sacredh (I’m pretty sure you’re thick-skinned enough to handle it), but the issue to me isn’t the abstract question of justice, but the real-world application of justice.
-
Any system run by angels not men is going to be imperfect.
-
The downside of not executing someone guilty is that they stay in prison forever. Not so bad. The downside of executing someone not guilty is… well, self-evident and astronomical.

“So IF a cost effective way were to come about and IF one were 100% sure of guilt and the state executes what is the benefit to the country/society?”
.
Just ridding society of scum.

Elvis, I don’t see it as piling on and I am pretty thick skinned, the discussion has been passionate but civil. I can’t expect anything more. I knew I would be defending my position before I hit submit on my first post. My stand on executions is based on there being no doubt. If there is any reasonable doubt whatsoever, then Ilfe in prison is something I have no problem with.

My opposition to the death penalty has always been based on one thing and one thing only. What if we’ve misidentified the culprit? To me paying the cost of jailing someone for life is well worth avoiding the risk of executing an innocent person.

You’re just holding on to them for the weekend thread(s).
.
Veteran move.

“Just ridding society of scum”
.
The prisons? No one is suggesting anyone walks out of their cell.

I agree with sacredh in that if they are guilty, pull the switch.

What I find somewhat amusing is the angst here about how you struggle with this and how imperfect the process might be and yet most stand firmly behind abortion on demand. Its amusing in that the smallest and most defenseless are essentially executed under the feel good title of “choice” and yet you wring your hands over someone who has reneged on their membership in the human race and gone through an exhaustive legal process. The logic is perplexing at best

Pnnto: No, it’s something I’m going to keep to myself. I did tell one trusted friend at work and it left him momentarily speechless.He advised me to NEVER mention it to anyone else. He felt that it was so over-the-top and bizarre that I’d be better off forgetting about it. He said that if it wasn’t illegal, it should be. Sometimes I just can’t help myself.

Trust me, centfan, those who were raised in a religious environment and put on a uniform have struggled with that – the fact that the Bible says “Thou shalt not kill” and the fact that wearing the uniform means you may have to do exactly that.
.
I have a lot of respect for those who still struggle, even decades later, with what they had to do as a soldier yet harbor no ill will against their former “enemies”. The Soviet military members were serving their country just as we were.
.
At reunions of WWII military members, some of the most respected guests are the members of the former enemy. Adolph Galland, head of the German AF toward the end of WWII, is almost beloved by some of the very Allied pilots he flew against – a “pilot’s pilot”, if you will. Even some Japanese pilots who flew at Pearl harbor attend and are welcomed. They did not plan and effect strategy – they were doing their jobs as trained. Their skill, professionalism, and dedication to their respective countries can be appreciated without personal hatred.
.
It’s the ones that, years later STILL hate their former enemies, and wish they could have killed more that I feel sorry for.

“If someone murdered my wife, I’d hunt them down and kill them if I could.”
.
Yeah, I probably would, too. Even with all my sermonizing about the immorality of the act.
.
“If you prick us, do we not bleed? if you tickle us, do we not laugh? if you poison us, do we not die? and if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? “

LOL! Nice one!

“The logic is perplexing at best”
.
This is likely an exercise in futility, but…
.
I honestly do have issues with abortion on a personal level. The reason I’m still pro-choice is that I believe that there is not a way a civilized society can force a woman to give birth against her will.
.
I also think the best way to reduce abortion is reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies with comprehensive sex education and easy access to birth control, something the average anti-abortion advocate seems to be against.
.
Another way to reduce abortions is better government support of single mothers, state funded day care, and other entitlement programs to make the decision less of a financial decision for the young mother, but we all know how conservatives feel about that, so that’s probably off the table, too.
.
I’d be a lot more sympathetic to the anti-abortion movement, if the anti-abortion movement was more sympathetic to the needs of the mother and the child-to-be.

Posted above. Reposted here for context. No “what if?” about it…
.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cameron_Todd_Willingham

momentomori, we all have a darkside that we’re not proud of. Most times we rule it but other times it rules us. All of our morality and sense of justice can vanish in an instant when we’re confronted with something that shakes us to the core of our being. We may truly regret our actions later and feel incredible remorse, but we wouldn’t be human if certain things didn’t get the better of us. Outrage and emotion will overpower thought and reason almost everytime.

Sacredh,

I don’t think anyone is taking offense to your position. And to be honest, since most of us are of the “progressive” persuasion, I believe the discussion has been very civil and we have agreed to disagree.

I oppose the death penalty on a number of grounds. The first being the imperfect system we have where innocent men and women are executed. If anyone believes that there has never been an execution of an innocent man or woman, they are living in a fantasy world. The problem is, if an innocent man is convicted of murder, given a life in prison, and we later find out it was a mistake, we can let him go. Now, we can’t give him the years he has lost, but he can be partially compensated. You can’t do that for a dead man. Second is my religious beliefs. As a Christian, I believe Christ came with a new covenant, and where during the Old Testament, it was an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, Christ taught us to love those who would persecute you.

Third, on a personal level, I have seen up close the follies of the death penalty. As a lawyer, I work for a firm where one of our clients (this was long before I worked for the firm) was within HOURS of being put to death for a crime he didn’t commit. He had a low IQ and confessed under the pressure of police interrogation. Can you ever be 100% sure? After all, witnesses make mistakes, especially under extreme circumstances. Most people won’t confess unless they are guaranteed no death penalty. (I have to wonder what type of job this woman’s first attorney did if she pled guilty and still got the death penalty). In addition, I know what it is like to suffer a personal loss to murder. My uncle, who was my mentor, and next to my parents and my wife (my children were not born yet) was the person closest to me in the world was murdered. Now the person who killed him was not charged with first degree murder, and thus was not eligible for the death penalty. Even if he had been, I would not want him put to death. Now, I would rather he get life without parole than the 50 year sentence he got, but nothing would erase the paid of my uncle’s killing and having the killer put to death, would not have brought any greater a resolution to my family’s loss.

fhmadvocat, first let me extend my condolences on your loss. The discussion has been very civil and despite it’s topic, one of the most rewarding and enjoyable that I’ve had for quite awhile. We will have to agree to disagree. I was very opposed to the death penalty at one time. I fully support it now. Of course that doesn’t mean that I was right then or right now. It only means that my position has changed Personally, I would feel a greater sense of resolution if a person that kileed a member of my family was dead. I would probably even sink low enough to desecrate their grave. That would be a senseless and futile act, but I’m sure it would make me feel better.
.
I hate to run but I have to head out to work. Thanks to all for an interesting discussion.

“We will have to agree to disagree”-sacredh
.
I can’t sign off on that.

That’s what I was inferring with my “can’t un-ring a bell” comment @ #6. Thank you for putting it into words, Paul.

Not that it matters what I (or anyone here I suppose) think but when 95% of the threads here become tired predictable flamings I really enjoy when a thread like this comes about.
,
Nicely done all, including freeinpa who brings up a not invalid point about hypocrisy. Not that turned around pro death/penalty anti choice isn’t the other side of the same coin.

Agreed. Better thread than usual.

My daughter was murdered by a serial killer, Robert Yates.
I believe I have commented about this and my opposition to the death penalty on this site before. Because I feel strongly about its repeal, I will comment again.
.
Yates was given 400 years with no parol in one venue and the death penalty in another. He has confessed to killing at least 12 women and 1 man over a long period of time. The DNA evidence in his case was irrefutable.
.
He is a monster. Although he claims to be saved, I consider him a sociopath who only cares for himself.
And, yes, sacredh, if I was alone in a room with him, I would probably tear his heart out. That would be my responsibility.
.
However, I asked for a life sentence at his first trial. I have always been against the death penalty and still am, only more so.
.
My daughter was a victim. My family was victimized. Using the state as a method of revenge only victimizes us again. I firmly believe taking a life for the loss of my daughter’s life is not honoring her.
.
This does not mean I forgive Yates. I don’t have that capacity. But, I do know that killing him will not bring closure to my pain nor justice to my daughter’s memory.

Horrible story apr2563, I had not known that.
.
I’m so sorry for what you and your family have gone through.
.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

That hit home. You pretty much summed up my feelings about the death penalty as well. My daughter’s 12 and if anything happened to her I’d probably feel the same about the murderer as you do. I don’t have the power to forgive him and wouldn’t if he didn’t ask for it… guess that’s God’s job. Lots of pro-death penalty people see execution as revenge when all it really achieves is producing one more dead person.
.
I pray that you and your family are now at the point where you can accept His letting you borrow her for a few years.

Thx for sharing your pain…and your faith.

Paul and nflfoghorn: Thank you for your kind words. I think about Linda everyday. I think about her smile, her energy, her intelligence and her basic kindness. Nobody can take that from me. She is kindly memorialized in a book done by reporters of the local paper. She is kindly remembered by the police and prosecutors who worked so hard to bring her killer to justice. These bring more comfort to me than the death penalty ever could.

That’s great. I have two sons as well but you know how that father/daugher bond is. I never ever ever want to be in your shoes but your grace and understanding sets an example that far exceeds that of mere mortals.
.
+1 with PNNTO’s take.

I can add nothing.
.
What a thread. Makes me think more than I would about this issue.

“Thou shalt not kill” doesn’t have an asterisk after it.

Sure it does. Translating it as “kill” instead of the more likely meaning of “unjust killing” is not just willful interpretation on your part, it sets the whole of the Old Testament up for failure. As just one ridiculous example from the man who walked down with the tablets:

Exodus 2:11-12 (King James Version)

11And it came to pass in those days, when Moses was grown, that he went out unto his brethren, and looked on their burdens: and he spied an Egyptian smiting an Hebrew, one of his brethren.

12And he looked this way and that way, and when he saw that there was no man, he slew the Egyptian, and hid him in the sand.

It’s a fine thing to have ideals, and they don’t even need to be internally consistent if you don’t want them to or can’t be bothered to think about them very much. But it’s not okay to wield such nonsense as some kind of example of how to govern a society. Be against capital punishment because of imperfect courts system, sure. Don’t be against them because a dude walked across a field of dead bodies (including the innocent firstborn of everyone in Egypt), up a mountain, and came down with some rules on rocks that no one really followed or translated correctly for the next 5,000 years.

I’m against capital punishment in all cases largely because I think it’s too much power to entrust to the government but this is probably not going to play out as a compelling case for clemency.

As opposed to the power we entrust the government in terms of police who shoot unarmed minorities in the back 47 times? As opposed to the power we entrust the government in terms of drones firing hellfire missiles into remote villages in Pakistan in the hopes of killing al-Qaeda members, killing who knows how many completely innocent people? You already entrust the government with greater powers than this.

I dunno. Something about capital punishment discussions just irk me to no end. People parade about with their sanctimonious “our justice system is imperfect” while admitting they would kill their child’s murderer themselves out the other side of their mouths. I mean, if we really get down to it, who is really to say that life imprisonment without parole is actually the more humane option? Have any of you seen the inside of an overcrowed maximum security prison? The violence, the rapes, the fear… more ethical, is it?

Believe whatever you will. I just recommend being a bit more honest in acknowledging when the beliefs you hold are internal inconsistent.

It reminded me of the swamp from two years ago.

I’m sorry if you feel I am being sanctimonious. You miss the point. I have no sympathy for my daughter’s killer.
I don’t care if he rots in jail. Since he is a sociopath I don’t expect he will ever be fit for society. He is held in solitary confinment which must be hard because he is a narcissist. He has a large family but I feel the only person he feels sorry for is himself. He has no power.
He was a decorated serviceman who can no longer enjoy the recognition of his peers. That is as it should be.
However, my daughters life and memory should not be used to gratify the state’s need for revenge with the use of the death penalty. It sullies the meaning of her life.
The discussion of the death penalty seems to make you very angry. That leads me to believe its use is more emotional than a real attempt at justice.

lease click my name,get my e-page

we got lots brand summer t-shirt b a g s n e a k e r ,s a n d l e,s u n g l a s s,c a p s etc…
All famous brand and hot style!!
U G G B O O T S 85 U S D
n i k e , j o r d a n, s u p r a, S h o x ,P u m a , PRICE 35 U S D
l v, c o a c h, p r a d a ,c h a n e l ,g u c c I, h a n d-b a g 33U S D
c h a n e l ,g u c c i ,p u r s e 15U S D
D & Gs u n g l a s s e s U S D
new e-r-a c-a-p 10 U S D
p a y p a l Accept,Door to Door vvvvvv (doc) gotopick (doc) com
please click my name,get my e-page

Well sh!t. As if blogwhores aren’t bad enough, now we’ve got salesmen going from thread to thread hawking their wares. I swear to God that if we Jehovah’s Witnesses peddling WatchTower phamplets next, I’m out of here.

That reminds me of a story that Tracy Morgan told about what he did with the WatchTower pamphlets when he was a teenager.
.
Of course it is unrepeatable.

The ones I’ve met have all been pretty nice people. If you tell them that you’re an atheist they just thank you for your time and leave. The last time my MIL’s minister was here (since banned) he wanted to annoit me with oil and exorcise my demons out. I told him I had to go check out porn on the internet and masturbate. True story.

And, oddly enough, not terribly far from Morgan’s story.

You just hurt me. I’ve got a sore throat and a fever and that made me laugh. Well, I’m off to work to infect the guy I’m working with. I hope he doesn’t expect much today because I’m not doing sh!t. I came very close to reporting off. Since there’s only two of us on weekends, I couldn’t bring myself to bone him by making him work alone.

Where are the high sheriffs? This person keeps posting his “cheap” goods here. Be gone!

If you believe in economics then perhaps a sentence of retribution suits your psyche! But Teresa Lewis’ crimes are not serious enough to compare her like real monsters such as the Hitlers, the Pol Pots, the McVeighs and the Bin Ladens. Therefore the death penalty does not suit her at all…she deserves only the supermax!

I do believe in economics (both macro and home). There’s a lot to be said for retribution. I don’t believe anyone compared her to any of the people you mentioned. She paid to have two people murdered in cold blood. I feel the death penalty does suit her. The other people….I would be fine with removing their organs while they were still alive and without any pain killers. I’m progressive. Progressively vindictive.

Come over to the darkside. We have cookies.