“Scandalous” News from the CIA

All in the world who have faith in President Obama pray that he will live up to the expectations in protecting human values and rights ,and will not cover up nor follow past administrations policies against these values and rights.

It’s funny that this is described as “rarely discussed.” On the Web sites I read, it comes up pretty often. In the comments here it comes up pretty often. There are plenty of people (qualified people, not cranks like me) who are available and willing to discuss this as often as our larger media outlets would be willing to give them a forum. So if this issue is truly “rarely discussed” I’m going to have to ask “why is that?”

+1

B/C we have to move forward, not backwards. We don’t want to spend precious time prosecuting CIA officers, White House officials, and at least one VP.
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…all spoken sarcastically.

We are too busy promoting the rule of law in the Muslim world, to pursue it here.

Time to repost this:
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http://phd9.blogspot.com/2009/12/one-of-problems-with-centrism.html
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One of the problems with “Centrism” as currently practiced is that you end up with either the worst of both worlds or an absolutely incoherent and unprincipled position.

Not much in the way of moral clarity in THAT neighborhood….
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I’ve never expected prosecutions to come and I still don’t but it remains undeniable that the law was routinely broken.

(Perhaps that’s the card Obama is holding against the ‘endless investigation’ scenario everyon envisions if the R’s take the House.)

As is my routine, whenever the subject comes up, I post this link:
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http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00002340—-000-.html

Rarely discussed nowadays

I remember Joe Klein used to get so p*ssed off when the Swampland commentariat would ask whether the rule of law was important in the United States.

Look forward, not backward! It’s too political! It will poison the spirit of cooperation between Democrats and Republicans (ha!).

Personally, I don’t discuss the torture issue much any more, but it has permanently affected my view of the United States to know that the “rule of law” is a sham.

Respect for the rule of law, and ethics in general, are two of the things one must give up to become a centrist.

I suppose when the economic news is all BAD for Demorats. When healthcare reform is like calling someone a really BAD name.
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When all else fails and you can no longer “blame it on Bush”, after throwing out the race card, calling everyone a “racist”. The one tried and true Demorat meme will be “they TORTURED TERRORISTS”.
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Guess what? Americans don’t give a big fat rat’s A$$ what you people think anymore!!

Perhaps it’s better to keep off a blog and let people think you’re a fool than to type and remove all doubt.

No Rusty, you get called racist because you say racist things. Now, do your country a favor and move to Iran.

+1

No, joe, you’re the one who rarely discusses this. Whether or not Obama finally grows a spine and allows an investigation doesn’t matter; we can have a discussion either way.

“The one tried and true Demorat meme will be “they TORTURED TERRORISTS”.”
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When did you become a Big Government Republican, Rustydog?
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I guess, when it comes to the Bill of Rights, Obama’s beaurocrats’ word on who is or isn’t a “terrorist” is good enough for you?

” Americans don’t give a big fat rat’s A$$ what you people think anymore!!”
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Correction: Obama replaced dubbya.
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So, even though you find protecting human rights offensive, Americans don’t give a big fat rat’s A$$ what dubbya sycophants and right wing nuts jobs think anymore!! and have not since the Republican majority was thrown out in 2006.
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Why do right wingers forget that they are not a country?
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If there ever is a place with 100% of the city council and the mayor all right wing Republicans, they can have a place to call “we”, but, Democrats have altered between a large minority to the majority for the past 221 years.
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Sorry, Rusty. Go find another country to call “we”.
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I think Antarctica is still up for grabs.

I disagree, Dirks. Centrism is only unprincipled to you.
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It’s not that the Third Way people don’t have principles, it’s that those principles in action are indistinguishable from capitulation to both left and right, because our principles are different from theirs.
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You want “moral clarity.” So does the popular right.
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The centrists want “pragmatic, non-ideological solutions.”
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See the difference?

Remember back when America was the good guys?
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Sure, there were some abuses during the Vietnam War, but, with those very unfortunate exceptions, from World War One through until dubbya was in the White House, enemies knew that if they surrendered they got three hots and a cot until the end of combat or, if they were terrorists in the US that if they surrendered to police they got a fair trial and a small cell for the rest of their lives.
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It was hard for our enemies to demonize a country like us.
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Under Bush we had people grabbed in huge sweeps based upon vague allegations of terrorism being tortured by our government and, right now, Obama too worried about Republican votes (which never arrive anyway) to prosecute.

Does +1 = ‘what he/she said’?

It’s striking, in reading about Stalin’s purges, that he cited the threat from expansionist Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany. Similarly, the threat we face from terrorism is very real. Like Stalin, we have tortured and rigged the rules of evidence to guarantee convictions. This is bad because the government is not omniscient, and it might make mistakes in deciding who to prosecute/torture.
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I grew up taking it for granted that we were better than that. It’s bad enough to learn that’s not true; to see that no one (in the MSM or in a position of political authority) cares about American values is almost as bad.
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I’m a centrist by temperament, too, but when one party is insane and the other party is wimpy, the center won’t be a very coherent place.

I’m assuming it means “uprate this comment,” as if we actually had a comment rating system, like in better implemented blogs.

Well, Stuart, we’ve had this go-’around before, but it seems to me that centrism, because it is based on finding the middle ground, is by definition unprincipled. Real life is calling, maybe we can discuss this over the course of the day.

Sigh…right.
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No, one party is not “wimpy,” they just have leadership who are of a different political-economic philosophy than you.
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The New Democrats are nothing if not absolutely committed to achieving their ideological agenda –no matter how it gets done.

maybe we can discuss this over the course of the day
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Good idea, let’s have the discussion again, if we both have the time.

Gotcha. I’ll let you know if we’ve gotten to year 1995 yet

“47 year old white male detainee died while in US custody. Cause of death: Blunt Force Injuries and Asphyxia; Manner of Death: Homicide. Autopsy revealed deep bruising of the chest wall, numerous displaced rib fractures, bruising on the lungs, hemorrhage into the mesentery of the small and large intestine. Examination of the neck structures revealed hemorrhage into the strap muscles and fractures of the thyroid cartilage and hyoid bone. History of asphyxia, secondary to occlusion of the oral airway. Pleural and pulmonary adhesions. Hypertensive cardiovascular disease. According to report provided by the US army CID, the detainee was shackled to the top of a doorframe with a gag in his mouth at the time he lost consciousness and became pulseless. The severe blunt force injuries, the hanging position, and the obstruction of the oral cavity with a gag contributed to this individual’s death. DOD 00329 refers to this case as “gagged in standing restraint” DOD 003329 refers to this case as “1 blunt force trama and choking; gagged in standing restraint.” DOD 003324 refers to this case with a note indicating “Q[uestioned] by OGA [Other Governmental Agency - non-military, often refers to CIA], gagged in standing restraint.”

http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2009/07/13/do-the-right-thing/

If y’all want to conduct Nuremberg trials with the former VP and everyone on Fuques News saying publically that waterboarding is just playful hazing then that’s fine. We can ride that out for two years and tie up the Obama presidency with the “we can’t concentrate on more than one thing at a time and we don’t pick sides” corporate media giving us scores every day. Maybe O J can kill somebody else if things slow down.
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Sorry for being centrist but unless the public gets tortured or personally knows someone that’s been tortured they really don’t care much. The press will make them care that they’re being forced to care and they’ll get p!ssed off… but it won’t be at the guys that did the torturing. America do wrong… find rug… find big broom… Dance with the Stars…

What about torturing three men to death and framing them as suicides? Would that be “scandalous”?

http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2010/01/23/the-ceremony-of-innocence/

What about not blog-whoring at every possible opportunity?

RE OJ: Allegedly (remember he was only found liable, not guilty).

LOL
I take it he’s out for a buck. I just don’t have to give mine to him.

Stuart, I want pragmatic, non-ideological solutions too. But I despise the center’s take on this. Failing to prosecute the torturers is a serious pragmatic failure. It just takes more that one logical step to see why.

“When did you become a Big Government Republican, Rustydog?”

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About the same time you moved out of the centrist Democrat’s camp / Liberal to the far left extremist camp headed up by Markos Moulitsas Zϊρiga, or whatever his name is over at Daily Kos.

You remember all those polls showing a major gap in enthusiasm? Republicans holding the edge over Democrats? Whereas the pure number of people who agreed with each was much closer? Those polls that the media harped on for about a week?

This issue is a significant part of why. Some people (such as myself) care a lot about this, and find it hard to get beyond a party that is going to do absolutely nothing about what we really care about.

OJ needed some place to park his knife but he had no intention of killing someone although he parked it in their body. It’s like parking in front of a fire hydrant doesn’t mean you want the place to burn down.
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Just to expand a little, I do think it’s critical for Mr. Holder to concentrate on finding and processing the bystanders that were no doubt rounded up by sweeps of our crack investigative military units. “Running from a bomb blast, eh? Looks bad for you…”. Guys standing in the wrong place at the wrong time that go to a military prison for ten years with no trial… now that’s a crime the public might understand without leaping to the “but they’re terrorists” mental crutch.

If they didn’t want so many people disappointed in them maybe they shouldn’t lie to them in the first place. Just tell the truth, “Hey, we are no different than those last guys so vote for me.”

But then pols would have to get REAL jobs! I don’t think it was ever the Founding Fathers’ intent for ordinary folks to serve seemingly forever a la Byrd, Helms, Kennedy or Thurmond.

Perhaps it’s better to keep off a blog and let people think you’re a fool than to hit ‘send’ and remove all doubt.
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*as adjusted

The only people who care about this are civil rights extremists.
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I know that because Joe Klein tells me so.

“The New Democrats are nothing if not absolutely committed to achieving their ideological agenda –no matter how it gets done“.
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That’s true and it’s the highly pragmatic, not principled, corporatist agenda – deregulation and low taxes for our oligarchs – the “how it gets done” being centrist “bi-partisan” politics. Republicans and other professional “conservatives” do the same, using “conservative” politics to advance the exact same corporatist agenda – deregulation and low taxes for our oligarchs.
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Basically, you have different politics to appeal to different audiences, centrism for the pathologically bi-partisan independent and “conservatism” for the pathologically aggrieved “conservative”. But it’s all Kabuki to conceal who’s interests are actually being advanced: always the aristocracy. So centrists do want “pragmatic, non-ideological solutions”, as does the professional right, just don’t call it “principled.” Unless public mendaciousness and treachery in service of selfish, rapacious greed has finally made the grade.

If you read Glenn Greewald its discussed. But he is an unserious person.

NEW YORK (Reuters) – Financier George Soros said on yesterday he would give $100 million to Human Rights Watch to help the US-based group strengthen globally after America’s moral authority suffered under the Bush administration.
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The billionaire, whose donation to the rights organisation will be made over the next 10 years, said the United States’ blemished rights record had lessened its influence as a global rights advocate and urged other countries to fill the void.
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“The United States, being the main promoter of human rights, has lost the moral high ground that it used to occupy,” Soros, 80, told Reuters in an interview. “Other countries believe in it too so they need to be mobilised and they need to be activated because they can now have a bigger impact.”
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The United States has been condemned internationally for its handling of terrorism suspects, particularly under former US President George W. Bush. Critics have accused President Barack Obama of softening a US commitment to promote rights and not moving fast enough to reverse Bush-era policies.

http://www.royalgazette.com/rg/Article/article.jsp?articleId=7da94133003002c&sectionId=65

Well if the Republicans get voted in, there will be investigations, you betcha. Just not of things like torture. More like the investigations of the Clinton’s Christmas card list.

+1

Here I go again. The HBO documentary My Trip to Al-Qaeda directly addresses how Al-Qaeda used our torture police against us to recruit young men to the jihad. Also, read The Looming Tower. Booth are by Lawrence Wright, Pulitzer Prize winner.
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Believe me, I am not whoring the doc or book, just think they are important. I learned a lot.
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The reason Obama’s lack of prosecution is not discussed is because most of the press has not followed through.
Evidently it is too complicated to persue and not tabloid enough.

“Believe me, I am not whoring the doc or book, just think they are important. I learned a lot.”
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Apr,
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Good sources of insightful information from well informed people like you are always welcome.
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You may have seen the 60 minutes article – about fifteen minutes – on “the Narrative” I once linked to.
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My best guess is what you recommended is a far better and far more detailed explanation of the concept.
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I put it on my Netflix queue, but, it won’t be available for some time.

Revving a drill during an interrogation is “scandalous?” Where? I could understand if, for example, a narcotics detective used such a method during the interrogation of a hopper, there would be legitimate cause for concern. When a member of the US Central Intelligence Agency uses this method while interrogating an individual suspected of orchestrating the successful attack on an American naval vessel…Nevermind. If you don’t get it, you won’t get it.

By the way, people, Crowley wrote this, not Klein.

“If you don’t get it, you won’t get it.”
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Sorry. Maybe if you explained all of the situations where inflicting psychological terror is justified and all of those where it’s not, we’d “get it” better.
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Two things before you start: 1) “suspected” doesn’t mean guilty and 2) the watchword for keeping prisoners, even those who were just recently killing US service personnel, used to be “dignity.” Of course, that was a few wars ago.

Ouch. Didn’t take you for a believer in the American fairytale. I forgot WWII was fought by a bunch of honorable John Waynes and Henry Fondas. No Krauts were ever mistreated.

And, I’m not even defending this agent’s actions, I have no feelings on the matter. I’m more surprised by the gasps of shock that these things occur. It’s the f*cking CIA going after a “terrorist” who planned an attack on American military personnel. What did you people think was going to happen? Ask the Germans, the Japanese, Soviets, or any other people who stepped against the US. We don’t exactly play by the rules, we just opine that others should.

” I forgot WWII was fought by a bunch of honorable John Waynes and Henry Fondas. No Krauts were ever mistreated.”
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“During the war the Armies of Allied nations such as the US, UK, Canada and Australia[50] were ordered to treat Axis prisoners strictly in accordance with the Geneva Convention (1929).[51] Some breaches of the Convention took place, however. According to Stephen E. Ambrose, of the roughly 1,000 US combat veterans that he had interviewed, roughly one-third told him they had seen US troops kill German prisoners.[52]

Towards the end of the war in Europe, as large numbers of Axis soldiers surrendered, the US created the designation of Disarmed Enemy Forces (DEF) so as not to treat prisoners as POWs. A lot of these soldiers were kept in open fields in various Rheinwiesenlagers. Controversy has arisen about how Eisenhower managed these prisoners[53] (see Other Losses).

After the surrender of Germany in May 1945, the POW status of the German prisoners was in many cases maintained, and they were for several years used as forced labour in countries such as the UK and France. Many died when forced to clear minefields in Norway, France etc.; “by September 1945 it was estimated by the French authorities that two thousand prisoners were being maimed and killed each month in accidents”[54][55]

In 1946 the UK had more than 400,000 German prisoners, many had been transferred from POW camps in the US and Canada. Many of these were for over three years after the German surrender used as forced labour, as a form of “reparations”.[56][57] “The POWs referred to themselves as ‘slave labour’, with some justice.”[56] Their emotional state was worsened “from the anxiety and hope of the first half of 1946 to the depression and nihilism of 1948.”[56] A public debate ensued in the UK, where words such as “forced labour”, “slaves”, “slave labour” were increasingly used in the media and in the House of Commons.[58] In 1947 the Ministry of agriculture argued against rapid repatriation of working German prisoners, since by then they made up 25 percent of the land workforce, and they wanted to use them also in 1948.[58]”
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner_of_war#Germans
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No, John Wayne, like Reagan, did everything he could to keep out of combat and, like Reagan, cheered the war from sidelines playing the roles of brave men which they weren’t.
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“Ask the Germans, the Japanese, Soviets, or any other people who stepped against the US. We don’t exactly play by the rules, we just opine that others should.”
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At the end of WWII, German soldiers rushed from the Eastern Front to the Western Front so that they could be captured by The US, Canada or England instead of the infamously brutal Russians.
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We proudly had few – not none – human rights abuses.

Oh, that’s nothing! Google Gang Stalking and Targeted Individuals. See how thousands of innocent Americans are being tortured with electromagnetic radiation, voices to the head, and electrical shocks to the body, as well as being harassed by hoards of intelligence, community watch, and other harassment groups. Death threats, blackmail, home invasions, vehicle tampering…it’s ALL goin’ on, FOLKS! WAKE UP!!! HELP US!

“No Krauts were ever mistreated.”
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I know our history. I’m sure it would have gone much better if, rather than a high ethical standard that we sometimes failed to meet, we just went with “well, they had it coming.” Or, is it “it’s our the f@cking CIA, what did you expect?”

Patrick,
In case you hadn’t noticed, my comment was dripping with sarcasm. I wasn’t suggesting that the US historically has no human right violations in war, I was suggesting quite the opposite. And I wasn’t referring to John Wayne the man, but rather John Wayne the on-screen personality, and again, I was being facetious, I was ridiculing the idea that our troops were more honorable than they are now.

Shep,
Neither of the above. I’m not saying anyone deserves to be abused or that we should expect people to be abused and therefore do nothing in the face of human rights violations. What I am saying, though, is we shouldn’t be shocked when abuses do occur, nor should we elevate the revving of a drill to the level of, say, torture. Get outraged when we hook electrodes to detainees, not when we make loud noises and furtive movements.

“I was ridiculing the idea that our troops were more honorable than they are now.”
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For the most part, with Woodrow Wilson’s. FDR’s, Harry Truman’s and Lydon Johnson’s management, I believe that military prisons – maybe not our soldiers themselves – were far more honorable.
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I have an uncle who, during Vietnam was stationed in Germany in Army Intelligence. The Geneva Accord was, basically, memorized. That was a huge majority of their training.
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At the beginning of the “War on Terror” Army Intelligence and Army MPs among others were told to throw away the Geneva Convention.
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In reality, due to leadership – not the moral quality of individual soldiers which I believe is as strong now as it was at any time in the past – we have become far less respectful of human rights than we had been.

“See how thousands of innocent Americans are being tortured with electromagnetic radiation, voices to the head, and electrical shocks to the body”
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That’s why I don’t watch Fox. Too much negativity.