Morning Must Reads: Proactive

You could have elaborated that the job loss is mostly from the public sector because the census is ending. The private sector is still expanding, and rather earlier into the recession than most past recessions. We just have a longer way to go to surface with how far the economy dove.

Weird, you can embed video, but not a picture. Anyways:
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/money/2010/images/09/03/chart_jobs_monster.gif

“A Labor Day schedule released by the staff of U.S. Sen. Russ Feingold (D-Wis.) indicates that while Feingold will be in Milwaukee for a Laborfest pre-parade on Monday morning, he will not be in town when Obama is expected to arrive.”
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When the likes of Russ Feingold runs away from the President, you know Democrats and Obama are in real trouble. No Spin can overcome this move.
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“We did the mosque, Katrina, Iraq, and now Middle East peace?” said a Democratic strategist who works closely with multiple candidates and spoke on the condition of anonymity. “And in between you redo the Oval Office? It has become a joke.”
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Add trips to Spain at a cost of over a million dollars and setting a record for the most vacation ever taken by a President and you have an Administration completely out of touch with the vast majority of Americans.
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Liberals just don’t understand non liberal American citizens.
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It’s really very simple. American citizens expect when people “talk the talk” that they will “walk the walk”.

Nice Spin.

Krugman says ‘I told you so,’ calls for more Keynesian stimulus. Brooks say ‘I told you so,’ calls for more tax cuts and credits (sort of).

Hmm…Should I go with the Nobel-prize-winning economist or freqently-wrong pundit nicknamed ‘Bobo’?

“Krugman says ‘I told you so,’ calls for more Keynesian stimulus. Brooks say ‘I told you so,’ calls for more tax cuts and credits (sort of).

Hmm…Should I go with the Nobel-prize-winning economist or freqently-wrong pundit nicknamed ‘Bobo’?”
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Krugman’s batting average in the current economic situation is -100.
Bobo’s is +50. Might as well go with Bobo.

“Nice Spin.”
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That’s your rebuttal? Most adults prefer facts…

Why should I use facts when you don’t?

“Krugman’s batting average in the current economic situation is -100.”
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Citation needed. Do you have an examples, 3x? Or are you just childishly stamping your feet and making up stuff?

setting a record for the most vacation ever taken by a President

Care to back that up with some facts sunshine? Not that you can, but I’d really enjoy watching you try.

Liberals just don’t understand non liberal American citizens.

Senile codgers just don’t understand.
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Corrected. Oh yeah, I almost forgot……get off my lawn!

Or are you just childishly stamping your feet and making up stuff?

Yes.
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This has been another edition of easy answers to simple questions.

Its not spin. The numbers are that private business is creating jobs and the public sector is laying off.
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Given this, it makes less sense to cut budgets further, as doing so will only put more stress on the public labor market which will cause further unemployment. Public austerity may be the biggest threat to the economy at the moment.

NPR did a story this morning debunking the lies about HCR. Some of them were new to me – or I had dismissed them early on – government planting microchips in everyone who wants healthcare?

Shows how the right took perfectly appropriate things like a registry of implanted devices and twisted them to a level that could frighten the gullable. As someone with a hip implant, I would like accessable information about devices. But, that is gone. As an older person, I think doctors should be reimbursed for discussion of end of life issues, but of course that was demonized and is gone.

Health Law Myths: Outside The Realm Of Reality

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129581493

” setting a record for the most vacation ever taken by a President and you have an Administration completely out of touch with the vast majority of Americans.”
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A child tells a fibs, 3x, to make people look bad. Please try not to be so immature.
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Q: Has President Obama taken more vacation time than his predecessors?

A: According to one count, Presidents Ronald Reagan, George H.W. Bush and George W. Bush spent more time on “vacation” during their first year than President Obama did. Presidents Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton spent less time on “vacation.

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http://www.factcheck.org/2010/01/president-obamas-vacation-days/

Please. Dubya spent 40% of his presidency on vacation. Obama hasn’t even remotely come close.

“Why should I use facts when you don’t?”
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Is that the adult version of “I know you are but what am I”?
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Someone posted a chart with facts on it. You said “nice spin” and provided absoulutely nothing to back that up. When called on it, you spout an insult, and run and hide.
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For someone so mature as to call us all children, you’re debating like a 6-year old. If you want to make a point, provide some data or a link. If you just want to call people names and act childish, go back to the playground – and I don’t care how old you claim to be.

You guys will defend the indefinable.

Not sure if this says more about polls or about the expectation we should have of an informed electorate. No wonder it’s so easy to demagogue them.

Asked to name the current chief justice of the Supreme Court, and given four possible names, nearly one-in-ten Americans (8%) choose Thurgood Marshall, despite the fact that Justice Marshall left the Supreme Court roughly 20 years ago, and passed away in 1993.

http://pewresearch.org/databank/dailynumber/?NumberID=1056

Mmmhh… No. Krugman is not saying ‘I told you so’: he’s comparing predictions and actual facts over the last 18 months. One model predicted what would happen, and one (assuming there was in fact a competing one) didn’t.

Brooks OTOH is engaging in fact-free speculation about messaging, and implicitly acknowledges that the plain vanilla Keynesian model was the right one (i.e. govt spending = support demand).

Could anyone explain to me why citizens of our country that are a majority center-right are forced through our taxes to pay for NPR which leans left in it’s programming?
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Why do all of our citizens, some of which are quite poor have to pay for a government funded Media? There are hundreds of other sources of programs available that don’t cost our citizens anything.
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This makes no logical sense.

“You guys will defend the indefinable.”
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So, when called out for making stuff up, you reply with a non sequitor?
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Interesting approach…

Hey 3x:
You guys will define the indefensible.

But empirical data and expertise don’t matter. Brooks’ opinion on economics is just as valid, because he’s got his finger on the pulse of the American middle class, or something.
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Also, I like this from Brooks:
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Obama decided to do energy first. The economy was uppermost on everybody’s mind. Americans were wondering where new innovations would come from, what new jobs would emerge.
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Oh yeah, the Republicans would never filibuster that. They just love large-scale investments in research and infrastructure. They totally support science, too!

“You could have elaborated that the job loss is mostly from the public sector because the census is ending. The private sector is still expanding, and rather earlier into the recession than most past recessions. We just have a longer way to go to surface with how far the economy dove.”
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“For someone so mature as to call us all children, you’re debating like a 6-year old. If you want to make a point, provide some data or a link. If you just want to call people names and act childish, go back to the playground – and I don’t care how old you claim to be.”
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My young friends let me explain the point I was trying to make. There is a truthful old saying that “Numbers don’t Lie, But Liars use Numbers”,
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What this saying means is that a person can use numbers or statements that by themselves may be true but can be used in many ways to prove many and different points of views.
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Yes the numbers you used are true, but you are using them in a way to try and support your political views.
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I could use the same numbers in a way that gives the perception that they support a different point of view.
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Most of what is posted on this site is opinions and perceptions of truth not actual real provable truth. Many of the people making the posts believe what they are saying is truth and perhaps they do not have the experience or maturity to realize that their comments are really only their perception of truth rather than real provable truth.

Using one month trend-line analysis for this economy is pushing on a string.

Facts: Unemployment rose to 9.6%

Federal Government dropped 111,000 jobs while
State government dropped 10,000 jobs.

The next crash you will hear is the collapse of state governments that have Federal funds to permanently increase their budgets under the guise of “saving jobs of police, fire and teachers”. That bill will come due soon as nearly 40 states are still showing a budget gap for the next fiscal year. States will get a rude awakening that taxpayers have had it with excessive salaries, pensions and benefits to public employees.

Underemployment rose from 16.5% to 16.7%

To date we have lost 8.4 million jobs and have added through August 723,000. At this rate it will be over 11 years to regain.

Maybe because facts have a liberal bias?
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From: http://www.current.org/news/news0319study.shtml

Misperceptions
What percent of audience members held one or more of three misperceptions
about the [Iraq] war? (Source: Program on International Policy Attitudes.)
Fox 80%
CBS 71%
ABC 61%
NBC 55%
CNN 55%
Print media 47%
PBS/NPR 23%

Lets see here. Fox News is at the top of the list. NPR is at the bottom of the list. That means NPR does a better job of reporting the facts than Fox News. It’s not NPR’s fault if those facts happen to disagree with your conservative talking points.

Thank God we have the federal government to help all the little people from big bad capitalists.

Just like the job they did with “Cash for Clunkers” as Used Car Prices have risen over 10% in the past year. Impacting who?? Wait for it—the middle class

No more waived fees for using another bank’s ATM. Higher monthly account charges. Fees for paper statements with images of canceled checks.

These are some of the changes coming to customers of Bank of America and Wachovia, Charlotte’s dominant banks

Read more: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2010/09/03/1664388/wachovia-bofa-will-add-fees.html#ixzz0yTiSaXSv

NPR draws support from a wide variety of sources — but less than 2% from federal government sources.

http://www.npr.org/about/support/

Government funding supports far more than that percentage of things I don’t approve of. The war, for example.

And please, leans left? Obviously you don’t listen. This morning for example, Kathryn Jean Lopez was given an hour to state her point of view and the other guest was a non-partisan journalist. That is an example some of the balance on npr.

Of course most of the stories are fact based, which doesn’t appeal to many.

67% of NYC folks are against putting a mosque near Ground Zero according to NYT poll. So are the residents of one of the most liberal cities in America racist and islamophobic?

I am sure we will hear some high minded reasons as to why the polls of a liberal base is nearly identical to the 71% of Americans who oppose it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/03/nyregion/03poll.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1&hp

So, 3x, you are opposed to any publicly-funded sources of information that might conflict with what you see as the majority point-of-view? Would you be OK with NPR if it had a RW bias (assuming your framing is accurate, which I don’t necessarily accept)? Is it the public financing you have issues with or the supposed slant of the views presented?
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Me, I like to at least listen to the L and R points of view and see how well they argue and support their positions.
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As for so-called liberal points of view being “freely” available outside of the government-funded sites, Comcast took MSNBC and moved it from their basic to their premium plan. Without notice. I called about it being unavailable and was told they would “look into it” but never called back with a resolution. Later I read about the same thing happening with Comcast in Oregon then put 2 and 2 together.
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Right now, I can get all of the Fox channels I want in the basic package. Ditto for CNBC. So-called “liberal” media sources seem to be hard to find without paying more for them.
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I’m sure that it’s just a coincidence that Sumner Redstone, owner of Comcast, is one of the heavy-hitters of the right wing. He would NEVER skew his programming to benefit his political ideology.
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How could anyone possibly think such a thing?

3xfire3 you are welcome to point out my “lie,” but I certainly don’t see one, and if you did it would have been simpler to have just said so to begin with. Your verbiage is akin to mental dysentery with no proof to back up your claims. Until you provide such evidence that I have indeed lied (which I don’t believe I have), you’re the one with the ball.

“Facts: Unemployment rose to 9.6%

Federal Government dropped 111,000 jobs while
State government dropped 10,000 jobs.”
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Holy ducking sht!
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You used actual facts!
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If you keep on using facts, be careful, because this is how you go from conservative to liberal!
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” States will get a rude awakening that taxpayers have had it with excessive salaries, pensions and benefits to public employees…”
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The problem being is that those salaries you have determined to be “excessive” (very clearly up for debate with, literally thousands of different pay scales in thousands of different cities and towns all with different costs of living – way too much to touch here) are handed over very promptly to privately owned businesses.
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You seemed to have lost the understanding that nobody wishes public employees to cash their paychecks wallow in cash. We want them to spend it and they, in most cases, very promptly do.
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Seriously, I am so impressed that you made use of actual facts!
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You are upgraded momentarily to tolerable.

Oh, I get it. Polls are more important to you than the Constitution.

Nice spin.

Ivy, that all may change whenever Comcast buys a majority of NBC Universal. I predict that Ms. NBC’s ratings will go up when you see it on Channel 30 instead of 279.

“When the likes of Russ Feingold runs away from the President, you know Democrats and Obama are in real trouble.”
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What?
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When Democrats fail to stick together against Republicans marching in lockstep, you know it must be a day of the week ending in the letter “Y”.

But 51% of those that actually live closest to Ground Zero in Manhattan are for building it?
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Why is that, Free? Are they too close to the site to think clearly about what it all means to the rest of us?

I’ve warned you, already, 3X, if you keep up your shenanigans I’ll have my 97 year old great uncle put your punk ass in your room and you won’t get to play with the intertubes anymore!

Adam Sorensen:
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“What did I miss?”
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Obama’s team might really agree with all of the conservative commenters here in Swampland who have faulted his economic policies, because (in addition to repudiating liberal policy) there are indications he’s going to adopt a top plank in Republican Minority Leader Mitch McConnell’s 2009 tax-cut GOP stimulus alternative:
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http://spectator.org/blog/2009/01/27/stimulus-through-a-payroll-tax

Stimulus Through A Payroll Tax Cut
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By Philip Klein on 1.27.09 @ 3:51PM
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Mitch McConnell has mentioned instituting a payroll tax holiday for a year or two…

And…wait for it…

White House considers pre-midterm package of business tax breaks to spur hiring
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By Anne E. Kornblut and Lori Montgomery
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Washington Post Staff Writers
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Thursday, September 2, 2010; 11:06 PM
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With just two months until the November elections, the White House is seriously weighing a package of business tax breaks – potentially worth hundreds of billions of dollars – to spur hiring and combat Republican charges that Democratic tax policies hurt small businesses, according to people with knowledge of the deliberations.
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Among the options under consideration are a temporary payroll-tax holiday and a permanent extension of the now-expired research-and-development tax credit…
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Administration officials have struggled to develop new economic policies and an effective message to blunt expected Republican gains in Congress and defuse complaints from Democrats that President Obama is fumbling the issue most important to voters…

Yes, they certainly do need “new economic policies” to assuage Democrats’ anger and to assuage Republicans’ anger over jobs.
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So the idea is apparently to use the “new economic policies” proposed by the Republican Caucus well over a year ago…tax cuts for business (who could have guessed?).
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That should definitely solve the jobs problem, assuage Democrats’ anger and assuage Republicans’ anger.
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It’s genius.
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“Change We Can Believe In“

Care to cite any fact based study that shows “Cash for Clunkers” was a direct influence on the increase in used car prices? Because used car prices couldn’t have gone up simply because the recession increased demand as people make more budget minded decisions by opting for used cars instead of new ones. No, that couldn’t be it.
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Also, if customers don’t like the fees at their current bank, they can always switch, or they can take steps to eliminate the fees. From the article you cited:

Both banks, for example, are adding fees for customers who receive paper statements that provide images of canceled checks. Bank of America is charging $3 per statement starting in January; Wachovia has started charging $2 per statement. Customers can avoid the fees by dropping the images from their statements and viewing their checks online.
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In other changes at Bank of America, the nation’s biggest consumer bank will start charging customers $3 for printing a summary of their account at the ATM and $12 for a deposited check that doesn’t clear. The bank will also charge a uniform $14 per month for some of its less popular checking accounts.
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That monthly fee will apply to fewer than 10 percent of checking account customers, and customers can avoid the fee by having a big enough balance, spokeswoman Anne Pace said. The returned-item fee is a reaction to a rising source of losses for the bank. In all cases, customers can take steps to avoid the fees, she said. The changes start in November and December.

Yes banks will lose some revenue from financial reform as some of the more unsavory practices of generating revenue become illegal, like automatically enrolling people in overdraft protection and then charging $25 or more when they accidentally overdraft their account.

The moves are meant to standardize prices that vary around the country after years of mergers, Pace said. It’s a necessary first step, she said, as the bank works to move away from “punitive” charges that sting customers when they make a mistake.
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Bank of America has also said it’s looking for ways to bring in new revenue as financial reform legislation threatens to cut debit card and other fees. To avoid new fees, customers are being asked to change their behavior, such as using ATMs or electronic statements, which are less costly for the bank.

Which would you rather have, hidden fees you don’t know about until you make a mistake, or fees you know about upfront so you can make changes to avoid paying them?

Stu,
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Which do you think is the greater goal for the proposal – (1) to spur hiring or (2) combat the Republican charges?
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Personally, I’m going 20% for (1) and the remainder for (2).

I am not getting in a plane with anyone wearing a sheet be he Arab or Klansman. Nor will I fly with anyone wearing a funny little, green and yellow, paisley hat that looks like a old time bread box. Call be racist or islamaphobic if you like but, I am keeping my cherished butt on the ground when these guys are around. And, I may not fly at all until I have some way of surviving an explosion at 35,000 feet and a cool way to soar back down to terra firma.

“Why is that, Free? Are they too close to the site to think clearly about what it all means to the rest of us?”
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Thanks afguy.
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Here’s the link in case Freeinpa is going to use facts or not.

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http://dnainfo.com/20100701/manhattan/manhattanites-support-mosque-near-ground-zero-poll-finds#ixzz0yTgBowTi
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I bet a far larger share of Alaskans oppose the Downtown Cultural Center than New Yorkers.
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Also, New York State is almost 400 miles North to South. So, for all practical purposes, some parts of Upstate New York are about as uninformed about the geography of NYC as people in Kentucky are.
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(Nothing against Kentucky – but I bet it wouldn’t floor you if I told you that I couldn’t find one single gas station, store or restaurant in Kentucky without either a map or having a local explain to me where to find it.)

freeinpa, you do raise valid points about the quality of the jobs that the private sector is adding. They certainly aren’t great in all areas.
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Anecdotally, I just graduated from college last year and the number of my friends who were employed full time upon graduation was very low. While many of them have jobs now, most of them are underemployed.
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Many of them went to work on the census, and knowing three managers in the state of PA I also know that Eerie & Pittsburgh cut their staff down to about 3 people per office with those jobs ending by the end of this month.
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Others ended up with service jobs. Needless to say those aren’t the greatest and they are all still interviewing.
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In general wages are stagnant as well. I’ve worked at two companies in the last 5 years as an intern and analyst. Both companies have basically frozen wages for the last three years. From what I’ve heard, this fairly typical.
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I wasn’t claiming, though, above that we had entered a strong recovery. It is very weak by any standards, but the census numbers do distort the picture to make the last two months look worse than they were as far as the private sector is concerned. Add in a reduction in tax revenue and its obvious the public sector has to cut jobs as well.
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I think it isn’t wrong to assume any lost job means lost revenue for private business. So, a loss of public jobs will still immediately hurt the economy, especially since that won’t immediately affect tax rates. Hence, losing public jobs right now is bad.
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That said, it would be wrong to assume the rate of hiring will remain the same. So sure, at this level it will take 10 years to recover. However, if you look at the curve represented by the decline in job losses to the gain in jobs in the private sector, and if the economy doesn’t take another dip we should be able to expect a stronger recovery eventually that will likely shorten the range for the acquisition of jobs to prior levels. I don’t know the numbers on it though.

What kind of recovery and the substance of it will ultimately depend on a lot of details I know nothing about.

“With just two months until the November elections, the White House is seriously weighing a package of business tax breaks – potentially worth hundreds of billions of dollars – to spur hiring and combat Republican charges that Democratic tax policies hurt small businesses, according to people with knowledge of the deliberations.”
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To the administration’s credit – and I am saying limited credit since I agree with you – the proposed tax cut has been exclusively for small businesses as a tax credit for expanding payroll.
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The problem being that this can be gamed three different ways:
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1) Companies will forgo hiring despite the need to for a period of months before the tax break takes effect (unless it is done retroactively to weeks before the legislation is expected to pass).
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2) Companies may hire people for the period of the tax break, get more work done and promptly lay off employees right after the period ends unless the tax break will be taken back if they lay off the employees within a particular time frame.
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3) Worst of all, companies may lay off employees and then rehire them to get the tax break unless the legislation is specific about increasing the number of employees with a starting point prior to the bill’s passage.
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If all of those provisions exist, this may not be the worst way to stimulate the economy, but, it is not a proven method, either.

“…I am keeping my cherished butt on the ground when these guys are around.”
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Thank goodness!
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That means I won’t end up being the poor SOB sitting next to you when the subject turns to politics!

” different cities and towns all with different costs of living”
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And yet for federal tax purposes liberal conveniently ignore this problem.
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Rev Jim I did notice how you focused exclusively on salary but ignore the cost of HC and pensions which are what is bankrupting states and cities. Co-pays are tiny if they exist at all, pensions have a participant putting in less than $100,000 over their career and have a pension value at over $1mil which is not based on a market value but an actuarial value. They add unused vacation and sick days to bolster that pension. All of these are practices lost gone from private companies. That is the difference when you are responsible for a bottom line and one where you just keep bilking the tax payer.
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“Hence, losing public jobs right now is bad.”

Why? It eases the burden of taxpayers now. If you can’t cut public jobs in a crisis like this you never will and the problem like every public spending problem just kicks the can down the road.

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When Democrats fail to stick together against Republicans marching in lockstep”

Or when unprincipled politicians move to serve their own political interests versus those who take a principled stand for the country.

When your only bonding principle (spending money) comes under attack by a majority of Americans the Democratic party has nothing left.

“Government funding supports far more than that percentage of things I don’t approve of. The war, for example”
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I can show you in the Constitution where the federal government is to provide for a national defense. Can you show me where it says we must support a biased public radio station?

Just like a liberal to support something that bashed this country and its people but be against something to protect and insure the safety of those people.

And, I may not fly at all until I have some way of surviving an explosion at 35,000 feet and a cool way to soar back down to terra firma.
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Funny, but I’m more worried about a drunk passenger who decides that he doen’t like the flight he’s on, wants to leave thru the exit door and decides to shoot anyone who tries to stop him.
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But, rest assured, the terrorist you should be afraid of will in no way dress to arouse your (or anyone else’s) suspicions.
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Until you get over your fears of your “textbook” terrorist, I recommend a good supply of Depends.

gum0nshoe,
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I’m not calling you a liar. Please reread my post and try to approach it with an open mind.
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Also please read post
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People use information all the time and interpret it using their own life experiences and come to different conclusions then someone else using the same information. Neither is purposely lying. They just of different perceptions of the truth…
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Remember Perception is not truth; it is something one believes to be truth from their personal experiences and points of view.

Because, as I said, firing someone from the public sector doesn’t change the tax rate. If people are being fired it is because the government doesn’t have the money, not because they are cutting taxes. In a recession, sales tax and other sources of tax revenue go down along with spending.
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When you fire a person from a public job, you are removing customers from private business as well as further reducing tax revenue. All in all, the government firing due to budget issues in an economic time like this only hurts the economy more.

Please read post 1.9

Yes how about the Auto industry and just as the title says: Simple Economics Supply down: Prices up
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http://rumors.automobilemag.com/6680900/news/economics-101-used-car-supply-down-prices-increase-as-demand-goes-up/index.html

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Bank fees. And who do you think will be unable to take advantage of changes to get info electronically? The poor and middle class

Then what did you mean by nice spin?

(Nothing against Kentucky – but I bet it wouldn’t floor you if I told you that I couldn’t find one single gas station, store or restaurant in Kentucky without either a map or having a local explain to me where to find it.)
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Patrick,
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Me neither. And I live here.
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If I need to find one on a trip, I have to rely on the exit signs off of the Interstate (BIG reliance on fast food joints on trips).
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Or roam around after you move into an area and just acquaint yourself with their location.

The first sentence in your link:
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“In the wake of the federal government’s Cash for Clunkers program, and with the unemployment rate high across the country, demand for used cars is outpacing supply, causing prices to skyrocket
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As you love to mention, I had sold new cars before (never a used car lot or a used car dealership – just Nissan) and recessions always bring up used car prices.
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Cash for clunkers may have added to this somewhat, but, you have no stats, just rants.

Rev Jim you go on about “facts” but what you mean is liberal facts but even then no one addressed the issue.

We got “the Constitution”, 51% near the site etc.

Ask the 67% of the NYC people about the Constitution. This is the red herring argument for the left. It has nothing to do with rights and everything to do with sensitivity. The second favorite argument is the folks are Islamophobic, the new race card for the left.

I haven’t seen the poll but 51% sounds like a coin toss since I don’t know what the margin of error was.

But the question remains: If 67% of the people in one of the most liberal cities in America are against this are they Islamophobic? This was not a Fox poll but a NYT poll

“I can show you in the Constitution where the federal government is to provide for a national defense. Can you show me where it says we must support a [non-right wing]public radio station?”

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“We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”
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“…promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity.”
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We constitutionally must do so as long as the majority of the representatives of the people see it as a part of maintaining public welfare.
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Basically until Fox, AM radio and the conservative bias gets out of our infotainment corporate system we need it.

3xfire3, please read 1.12

This one of Rev Jim’s favorite facts. Everyone who disagrees with him is dumb and inferior. That is brash talk for a college dropout, failed taxi driver, failed used car salesman and rejected public servant.

Also, New York State is almost 400 miles North to South. So, for all practical purposes, some parts of Upstate New York are about as uninformed about the geography of NYC as people in Kentucky are.

“I haven’t seen the poll but 51% sounds like a coin toss since I don’t know what the margin of error was…”
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From the links I posted:
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“The Quinnipiac University poll, released Thursday morning, found that 46 percent of Manhattanites support the 13-story mosque and community center, called Cordoba House. Thirty-six percent of Manhattan voters oppose the proposal and 18 percent are undecided.”
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It’s, actually, 46% to 36%.
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Also, keep in mind that there are a very large share of New Yorkers who may go for as long as ten years without stopping in Manhattan at all. Many live and work in Queens, Brooklyn, The Bronx or Staten Island and have no need to be in Manhattan for many years.
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So, of those who have an opinion, it is 56.09% to 43.91%.
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Claiming this is like a coin toss would be like saying Reagan’s victory over Walter Mondale was a coin toss.

@freeinpa
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Um. Yes. Supply down. Demand up. Prices increase.
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So then ask yourself why is supply down? Supply is down because people are keeping their cars longer to save money. This has nothing to do with Cash for Clunkers.
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Now ask yourself why is demand up? Demand is up because people are buying used cars instead of new cars so they can save money. What does this have to do with Cash for Clunkers again?
.
I’m sure some of these people are buying used cars as part of the Cash for Clunkers program. How many? I have no idea, but it’s not likely to be the driving factor.
.
My original question still remains. Do you have any statistics on what percentage of the used car price increase is due to Cash for Clunkers? Here, I’ll answer for you. “No I don’t. I’m just making this sh*t up as I go so I can complain about Obama and liberals.” There. I fixed your post for you.
.
As for bank fees? I’m middle class. I can get my statements electronically. Anything which gives the consumer more control over the fees they pay is a good thing. Are you suggesting we do the opposite? You want to give consumers less control over and less visibility into the fees they pay?

I haven’t seen the poll but 51% sounds like a coin toss since I don’t know what the margin of error was.
.
It’s the same freakin’ poll you quoted, Free. The NYT. Under Residency – 51% for, 41% against, 8% undecided.
.
Try a little harder to not become the poster boy for “cherry-picking”. But I understand your plight – life’s hell when you have to skip right over those parts that don’t conform to your point of view.
.
We’re several hundred miles here in West Ky from there and I can tell you public opinion is against that building (and indeed any mosque construction).
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The city council in a town of about 10k near here voted down construction of a mosque for the local Muslims. But the mayor rushed to assure them that it wasn’t because of 9/11 or anti-Muslim bias.
.
Good paying jobs are leaving this area and not coming back anytime soon. People are scared for their future and need someone to pin their fears on. Govt and foreigners seem to fit the bill right now.

Adam Sorensen:
.
“What did I miss?”
.
Well, in the Post this morning, Dishonest Gene Robinson joins the chorus of Third Way-sympathetic Village Democrats who demonstrate an apparent desire to validate the movement right’s “Blame America First” mantra:

The spoiled-brat American electorate
.
By Eugene Robinson
.
Friday, September 3, 2010
.
According to polls, Americans are in a mood to hold their breath until they turn blue. Voters appear to be so fed up with the Democrats that they’re ready to toss them out in favor of the Republicans — for whom, according to those same polls, the nation has even greater contempt. This isn’t an “electoral wave,” it’s a temper tantrum.
.
My guess is that with a decided advantage in campaign funds, along with the other advantages of incumbency, Democrats will be able to mitigate these prospective losses…But there’s no mistaking the public mood, and the truth is that it makes no sense.
.
…it’s impossible to ignore the obvious: The American people are acting like a bunch of spoiled brats.
.
The nation demands the impossible: quick, painless solutions to long-term, structural problems…
.
…things aren’t quite so simple…restructuring our economy, renewing the nation’s increasingly rickety infrastructure, reforming an unsustainable system of entitlements, redefining America’s position in the world and all the other massive challenges that face the country are going to require years of effort. But the American people don’t want to hear any of this. They want somebody to make it all better. Now.
.
President Obama can point to any number of occasions on which he has told Americans that getting our nation back on track is a long-range project.
.
…one thing he really hasn’t done is frame the hard work that lies ahead as a national crusade that will require a degree of sacrifice from every one of us.
.
…Fixing Social Security for future generations…none of this is what the American people want to hear. They’re in the market for quick and easy solutions that won’t hurt a bit. It’s easy to blame politicians for selling a bunch of snake oil. But the truth is that all they’re doing is offering what the public wants to buy.

How many times in Dishonest Robinson’s piece about the inexplicable anger on the part of ordinary Americans does he mention the word “unemployment,” do you suppose?
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Zero.
.
None.
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Not once.
.
In Dishonest Robinson’s world, nobody is unhappy because of a foreclosure crisis, or an unemployment crisis, or a credit crisis, or endless nation-building abroad, or obscene, blatant profiteering in the midst of said national crises. None of that sort of reasonable complaint is a part of his November electoral calculations, incredibly.
.
Nor does he fault his professions’ negligent inability to remedy an ongoing, partisan and ideological disinformation campaign aimed at confusing the American electorate about basic facts…like tax cuts not creating government revenue, or Democratic policies not being “Socialism,” or the President of the United States not being a foreign-born citizen or a non-Christian, for example.
.
Or that Social Security is “broken” and needs to be “fixed,” instead of the rest of the government’s borrowing, taxing and spending…because ol’ Dishonest Gene is right in there with those dishonest, ideologically-based claims.
.
Robinson takes a kernel of truth –that low-information Americans who are perpetually confused by the contradictory “information” sent their way by inept or agenda-laden sources sometimes express contradictory desires or opinions– and manages to conflate it with something completely different: the general, reasonable anger and disappointment over high unemployment and profiteering.
.
This is a profoundly, shamefully dishonest argument, inexcusable for its deafness and willful ignorance.
.
Thanks for helping Republicans make their case that the reason elite Democrats won’t do the right thing about jobs is because the socialists in charge believe the American people are stupid and spoiled, Gene.
.
Thanks for wagging your finger at seniors and telling them to suck it up and take their Social Security cuts like docile old sheep.
.
Thanks for telling ordinary folks that they’ve just got to suck it up and accept that reducing unemployment is “the impossible” result of “long-term, structural problems,” instead of deliberate, ideologically-based policies that can be reversed or fixed.
.
Thanks for telling a nation of drivers that the problem is cheap gas and an existing oil-delivery and highway infrastructure, not a lack of cheap alternatives or new energy-delivery and rail infrastructure. Thanks for claiming we should make ordinary people pay more until our industry overlords decide to make alternatives available, instead of effectively using our borrowed funds to create that infrastructure and put people to work doing it. Thanks for insisting that it’s folks’ “acting like a bunch of spoiled brats” that prevent them from seeing the wisdom of Third Way Democrats’ bank-shot policies.
.
Thanks for telling us that it’s our “temper tantrum” and unwillingness to accept more “sacrifice” that’s the problem with America, while the profiteers get away with the destruction they’ve caused to our lives scot-free.
.
Thanks, Dishonest Robinson.

” Everyone who disagrees with him is dumb and inferior.”
.
I have two close relatives who are psychologists, maybe one can speak with you regarding your inferiority complex.
.
I stated that I am completely unqualified to have any worthwhile opinions about Kentucky, Pennsylvania, California…. basically every place in the world besides New York, Boston and one town in the Northeastern Suburbs of NYC.
.
By the same token, people who live in all of those other places and have never been here or have never spent any time here are unqualified to have a worthwhile opinion.
.
Nobody wants the mosque “too close”.
.
Those who have, as I have, worked in that neighborhood (only back in November I was working down there and there every single day) know how far it is in absolute terms and in terms of how people travel (by foot – if a great lunch place is three blocks away you do not go there because there are several others on the first two blocks.)
.
When I walked four blocks to get my coffee from Dunkin Donuts rather than one of the closer places (in that neighborhood) my coworkers joked that I might as well walk to Columbia and pick up the coffee straight from the source.
.
So, three blocks in Downtown Manhattan is a “long way away”. This is fine.

“Rev Jim you go on about “facts” but what you mean is liberal facts but even then no one addressed the issue.

We got “the Constitution”, 51% near the site etc.

Ask the 67% of the NYC people about the Constitution. This is the red herring argument for the left. It has nothing to do with rights and everything to do with sensitivity. The second favorite argument is the folks are Islamophobic, the new race card for the left.”
.
Do you stop neo-nazis from marching using their first amendment rights?
.
If 70 percent of people think brandishing a gun in public is a bad idea would you care about the insensitivites in doing so?
.
There’s only one thing that matters here. Our constitution. Meanwhile liers are painting the imam as a radical. Some kind of bloodthristy thug who is sponsoring terrorists without a shread of evidence of any of it. Just plain made up baloney to justify how ‘insensitive’ it is.
.
I suggest you grow some stones and start defending the constitution for once. Not just when it serves you, but because that’s what we do. I will always defend your constitutional rights regardles if what you think is at odds with what I think, but it strikes me just of righties have absolutely no problem denying others their constitutional rights and usually with some kind of ‘majority of people think’ garbage argument. Sorry – the constitution was written to protect everyone – especially the few against the many.
.
If you don’t like it I suggest you look around the world for a country where their laws and constitution have the perfect blend of arbitrarity that suits you.
.
For the record – I don’t care about polls. What I care about is the law. If they followed all zoning laws, got it approved and their religious freedom is covered under the constitution I couldn’t care diddly about how you wet your pants over this community center.
.
BTW – the people who struck us on 9/11 didn’t need a mosque to plan it out of. Having a mosque or a prayer room close to GZ doesn’t make it easier for terrorists to hit us – nor does it constitutes a victory over anything.
.
Because if that’s how easy your ideals and integrity are defeated then you might as well lay down and roll over right now. I tell you – the liberals who complained about GWB in 2004 and treathened to move to Canada is nothing compare to the endlessly scared and emotionally bedwetting righties in this country. I’ll bet we will never see a greatest generation again.

@freeinpa:
.
Sure, I’d be happy to show you where in the Constitution it is:
.
Article 1, Section 8, Clause 1:

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

combined with Article 1, Section 8, Clause 18:

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

gives Congress the constitutional power to pass the Public Broadcasting Act of 1967.
.
Any other questions?

“My young friends….”
.
Eventually, you’ll learn that condescending crap like that isn’t helping your arguments. But, anyway…
.
“My young friends let me explain the point I was trying to make. There is a truthful old saying that “Numbers don’t Lie, But Liars use Numbers”,
.
“What this saying means is that a person can use numbers or statements that by themselves may be true but can be used in many ways to prove many and different points of views.”
.
That’s also a convenient way to ignore facts when they no longer support your premise. I guess there really is no reality and we all live in a subjective reality of our own making. Y’know since numbers are meaningless and can say anything.
.
This is anti-intellectual nonsense. If the new conservative ideology is to ignore facts and go with your gut, then the clown car of Palins, Angles and Pauls makes a lot more sense. Who need book-learnin’ when I can see Russia from my house, right?
.
I remember when the conservative movement was proud of its intellectuals. Now, its academia is a socialist scheme, anyone with a post grad degree is an ‘elite’, and numbers are just things used by liberals to confuse god-fearin’ conservatives. Conservatism in this country has been dumbed-down to the lowest common denominator of talking points and rhetorical devices. I’m actually starting to miss when it wasn’t.

“Or when unprincipled politicians move to serve their own political interests versus those who take a principled stand for the country.”
.
A principled stand, like supporting the survivors of 9/11, extending unemployment benefits, ending a war in Iraq where we should never have been to begin with – unprincipled means the Republic Party.
.
Okay.
“Or when Republic Party politicians move to serve their own political interests versus Democrats.”
.
“When your only bonding principle (spending money) comes under attack by a majority of Americans the Democratic party has nothing left.”
.
Wait! The Republic Party spent like drunken sailors, attacked an extra country to make sure GWB would be able to win without getting his daddy’s friends in the Supreme court to appoint him again and drove us into massive deficits despite a good economy.
.
But Republics were highly specific on how they spent money: in favor of their favorite charity: large, for profit businesses in terms of contracts and huge tax breaks.
.
“Or when Republic Party politicians move to serve their own political interests versus Democrats.”
.
“When your only bonding principle (giving tax payer money to the largest and most powerful corporations you can find) comes under attack by a majority of Americans the Republic party has nothing left.”
.
Well, that would be a vivid description of the 2006 and 2008 elections.
.
I doubt that it will be that good in 2010. It looks as if we will keep a only a slim majority to protect us against Republic Party lunatics.

If he were talking about certain wars we are fighting, I would agree. The American public at large was asked to make NO sacrifices while pursuing these wars (although I do recall a certain request that we all do our part and go shopping).
.
No fair universal draft, no service requirements for all, no rationing of goods or increases in taxes to pay for it, nothing like that.
.
The first “painless” war in memory (except for those killed or maimed, their families, those affected by “Stop Loss” who were subjected to a “you forgot to read the fine print” attitude by Pentagon spokesmen, you know… them).
.
I think he may have a point… just not maybe in the way he intended.

In Dishonest Robinson’s world, nobody is unhappy because of a foreclosure crisis, or an unemployment crisis, or a credit crisis, or endless nation-building abroad, or obscene, blatant profiteering in the midst of said national crises. None of that sort of reasonable complaint is a part of his November electoral calculations, incredibly.
.
Nor does he fault his professions’ negligent inability to remedy an ongoing, partisan and ideological disinformation campaign aimed at confusing the American electorate about basic facts…like tax cuts not creating government revenue, or Democratic policies not being “Socialism,” or the President of the United States not being a foreign-born citizen or a non-Christian, for example.
.
Or that Social Security is “broken” and needs to be “fixed,” instead of the rest of the government’s borrowing, taxing and spending…because ol’ Dishonest Gene is right in there with those dishonest, ideologically-based claims.

Robinson = one the Village’s most “liberal” voices.

” I did notice how you focused exclusively on salary but ignore the cost of HC and pensions which are what is bankrupting states and cities.”
.
” I did notice how you focused exclusively on salary but ignore the cost of HC and pensions…”
.
Total compensation is the issue since if they had higher paychecks but had to put that money into HC and retirement, it would not flow into private businesses.
.
“..which are what is bankrupting states and cities.”
.
No, a lack of tax revenue due to the decrease in housing prices is bankrupting states and cities and, for the states which have income tax, the unemployment rate is, also, bankrupting cities and towns.
.
Unemployment is caused by a lack of spending by any of the three:
.
1) Households.
.
2) Businesses
.
3) Government.
.
So, if hand in hand households stop spending due to unemployment, businesses stop spending and cause more unemployment until a third factor comes in: government.
.
“It eases the burden of taxpayers now.”
.
But it “eases” them out of customers and, with that, “eases” more people out of their jobs and “eases” further decreases in residential real estate which will “ease” a further decrease in tax revenue.
.
The time to cut government spending is when the households and businesses are spending a great deal of money, ie 1992 until 2001 or 2002 until 2007.”
.
Also, in those boom times you slow down excessive spending by households by raising taxes.

No where is supporting delusions of liberals a constitutional right. And under “promoting General Welfare” as far as the left is concerned that would be providing medication not NPR.

Bob Somerby from 2005 on Gene Robinson:
.
http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh021805.shtml
.
Entitled “The Post’s Eugene Robinson thinks he’s a liberal. Someone should tell him he’s not.”
.
Check out the section on Social Security at the bottom:

THE CON JOBS OF A CONSERVATIVE: At the Post, “liberals” are paid not to notice columns like today’s piece by Charles Krauthammer. Good God! He could have typed this piece in his sleep back in 1985! “The Social Security system has no trust fund. No lockbox,” he robotically rasps.

“1985″?
.
Or 2010?

I hear you stuart, problem is even if he did write it that way who would read it? It’s not like he is on TV. Some of these ordinary people have a responsibility to at least attempt to educate themselves.
.
The information is there for the asking but, there is no interest.
.
Who goes to the Polls, 40-60%. That is on the National level. What the hell stuart 50% could care less.
.
One could argue they don’t go because government doesn’t respond but, I would argue that government doesn’t respond because people do not make themselves heard.

Moment,
.
“I remember when the conservative movement was proud of its intellectuals. Now, its academia is a socialist scheme, anyone with a post grad degree is an ‘elite’, and numbers are just things used by liberals to confuse god-fearin’ conservatives. Conservatism in this country has been dumbed-down to the lowest common denominator of talking points and rhetorical devices. I’m actually starting to miss when it wasn’t.”
.
Since I have a Post Graduate Degree does that mean I am an Elitist and a Liberal?
.
Moment if you had half the intellectual capacity that you think you do you would understand that my comments in post 1.8 and 1.14 are accurate expressions of reality.
.
Let’s look at the very insightful statement recently made by Professor Larry Sabato of the University of Virginia.

The human (and partisan) tendency to twist facts into pretzels in order to produce a desired result must be avoided at all costs.

Most facts can be twisted at will. Listen to politicians of both parties. They do it on a daily bases. True statements can be taken out of context and used to support positions totally contrary to the truthful facts. We face this daily from most of the Media and most of the politicians.

Let me amend that a little. That is 50% of those that bothered to register to vote. I haven’t a clue as to the percentage of eligible voters that even bothered to register.

“…it’s impossible to ignore the obvious: The American people are acting like a bunch of spoiled brats.”

You know — like when your friend tries to convince you that you shouldn’t be upset about something you are upset about. It’s annoying. And you realize very quickly that they just don’t want to hear about it anymore. That’s how the Democrats seem right now — that they are sick of hearing about it.
.
–Digby

http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2010/09/message-they-care.html

“The information is there for the asking but, there is no interest.”
.
I would respectfully disagree.
.
It isn’t a matter of the correct information being out there, it’s a matter of an uncontested disinformation campaign being out there.

“I stated that I am completely unqualified to have any worthwhile opinions about Kentucky, Pennsylvania, California…. basically every place in the world besides New York, Boston and one town in the Northeastern Suburbs of NYC.”
.

Rev Jim You can give an opinion about anywhere ….about being qualified you over state your case again. You state you are unqualified about Kentucky but feel free to denigrate their knowledge. proving you talk regardless of what you know. This must be the infamous “facts” you keeping providing us.
=
“It’s the same freakin’ poll you quoted, Free. The NYT. Under Residency – 51% for, 41% against, 8% undecided.”

. Very good afguy you can read the poll now go ask someone what the margin of error means.
=

“For the record – I don’t care about polls. What I care about is the law”

So we short back up the truck to AZ and enforce the immigration laws right? Or is that one of those laws that aren’t really laws.

But through the whole nonsense that the left goes on here mostly obfuscation, no one addressed the issue are the majority or near majority of the people in NYC and the boroughs Islamophobic?
.
“So, three blocks in Downtown Manhattan is a “long way away”. This is fine.”

This must be another one of those Rev Jim quaint little anecdotes that he uses as “facts”

.
hippooath: when you can defend “hate crimes and hate speech” then talk to me about rights

Freeinpa,
.
The constitution absolutely permits NPR getting some of it’s funding from tax payers.
.
You clearly have very poor reading comprehension – end of story.

I happen to like Gene Robinson. By the way, he is on MSNBC almost everyday.

I was about to ask you
.
“What do you like about Gene Robinson, exactly?”
.
, but then I thought it might sound combative.
.
So, I’ll just mention that career “liberals” like Dishonest Robinson and Lord Larry O’Donnell are on MSNBC all of the time, which is one of the reasons why most of the American people believe the false story that Social Security is “fundamentally broken” and needs to be “fixed.”
.
I mean, the disinformation campaign is also a big reason, too, but these “liberal” political journalists are also responsible.
.
MSNBC isn’t actually solving the problem. A lot of what goes on during that network’s news segments makes it harder for Americans to understand what’s causing the issues we face.

I do not know stuart, certainly there is a lot of disinformation out there but, to constantly fight charges of Death Panels , Communism, Muslim, Un-American, I have to wonder if the ordinary people have any common sense, or if they just do not want to hear the truth.
.
Look I am nobody but, I know a wacko when I see one. I just have a problem with letting the ordinary people off the hook.
.
It is the cat smothered the baby thing, wives tales, urban legends, 2012 end of the world, somebody’s prophesy, it is endless.

“You can give an opinion about anywhere ….”
.
Name one example of when or where I said that a building should or should not be occupied or built by particular tenants anywhere on the planet earth besides the downtown Mosque. I, also, spent fifteen years in Boston and eighteen years in a town Northeast of NYC. However, the local controversy in 1986 about cloning the movie theater in my hometown didn’t get opinions from wingnuts like you and shouldn’t.
.
“… You state you are unqualified about Kentucky but feel free to denigrate their knowledge…”
.
Find me one person who commutes daily from Kentucky to Downtown Manhattan and I will give you and exception the rule in two instances: this person would be qualified to have a well informed opinion about Downtown Manhattan and a well informed opinion about towns in Kentucky.
.
It is no more denigrating of the knowledge of Kentucky residence than it is of my own.
.
“Very good afguy you can read the poll now go ask someone what the margin of error means.”
.
Then you claim that I denigrate people in Kentucky?
.
Sniff. Sniff.
.
I smell it again! It’s the arrogant, self righteous, unreasonable pain in the ass pot calling the kettle black.

I’m about to go do some work, but I’ll be back to relay a story of a particular disinformation campaign I happened to notice, because I walked by it every day for a week.
.
Then maybe we can explore how that sort of thing makes a difference in what people “know” day to day, and what effect that can have on our politics and policy.

I like Robinson too and he can be quite effective at beating back Republicans lies when it’s an issue he understands. Last night’s take-down of Haley Barbour’s ridiculous revisionist history on the Southern Strategy is a good example. Obviously, on Social Security (and the country’s legitimate economic woes and the failure of Obama’s centrist policies to address them) Robinson doesn’t know what he’s talking about. Like the rest of the Village, he lives in a bubble and he’s been there for a very long time.

So then why don’t you sue the government claiming the Public Broadcasting Act is unconstitutional? Let’s see how far your case goes.

This statement explains fully why you are a college dropout. As with liberals it is never too much spending just not enough tax revenue. Tax Tax Tax never mind that these pension liabilities exceed 20% of most state GDPs at this point. It no the spending just lack of taxes.

Your growing stupidity is only outstripped by you arrogance in believing you understand anything about economics. Still a burden to society Rev Jim

No, a lack of tax revenue due to the decrease in housing prices is bankrupting states and cities and, for the states which have income tax, the unemployment rate is, also, bankrupting cities and towns.

Another Rev Jim fact. I see you have adopted IQ3 tact of declaring victory using yourself as the source of fact.

You clearly have very poor reading comprehension – end of story.

Ok, so he is on TV. I do not watch TV, much or, have cable or satellite.
.
I am not sure if I am missing anything or not.

“Now ask yourself why is demand up? Demand is up because people are buying used cars instead of new cars so they can save money. What does this have to do with Cash for Clunkers again?”

Hey retard remember in the Cash for Clunkers gift to the UAW, All used cars that were traded in were scrapped. It took out all supply of used cars that would normally be available after a new car is purchased.

xfire, the point is that at the time you accused me of spinning I had not interjected personal opinion, I had stated facts:
.
1) The census layoffs caused much of the job loss in the latest reports
2) The public sector has been hiring (slowly)
3) We have a long way to go still (because we lost millions of jobs, which was extremely steep compared to past recessions)
4) Job creation has started at an earlier point (Read) then in past recessions.
.
The question that remains unanswered is the “Nice Spin” remark you made earlier. We all know humans are capable of perception & spin. How is me posting a bunch of facts spinning it? At what point did I introduce personal bias before you accused me of it.

“As you love to mention, I had sold new cars before (never a used car lot or a used car dealership – just Nissan) and recessions always bring up used car prices.”

And you failed at that. Now explain the impact of taking out of circulation roughly 125,000 used cars since all trade-ins were scraped during the CFC program.

It also explains why you are a college dropout

gumonshoe,
.
“I wasn’t claiming, though, above that we had entered a strong recovery. It is very weak by any standards, but the census numbers do distort the picture to make the last two months look worse than they were as far as the private sector is concerned. Add in a reduction in tax revenue and its obvious the public sector has to cut jobs as well.”
.
My compliments to you on post 1.12. For such a young person you have shown some very good knowledge and intelligence.
.
When I was your age I was very Liberal in my political views. As I grew older and gained a good deal of experience I found myself agreeing more with the Conservative approach to solving problems. Not everyone makes this transition with age but most do.
.
I have several suggestions for you that I believe will help you to be successful in both your personal life and your career,
.
1. Don’t allow yourself to become an Ideologue. Keep an open mind and realize that there are “Two sides to every story [or issue] and truth is almost always somewhere in between. If anyone tells you this is not true don’t listen to them.
.
2. Do not listen to Partisans who tell you the other side is evil and should be demonized. They are hateful people who will only lead you to unhappiness.
.
3. The vast majority of Liberals and Conservatives are good people. They just have different ideas on how to best solve the problems we face and both want what is best for our country and its citizens.
.
4. You are a very intelligent young person. Don’t think you have all this answers. You will continue to learn every day of your life.
.
5. Be wise enough to learn from those who are substantially older and more experienced than you. A major failure on the part of the young is that they don’t appreciate what then can learn from older people.
.
6. True Wisdom is a combination of Education and Experience. You now have a pretty good education but you do not have a great amount of experience.
This does not mean to accept blindly whatever anyone says. But be opened minded enough to learn all you can.
.
7. One last point. In any job situation always take initiatives and do more then the minimum you are asked to do. Employers are looking for people that can take responsibility and grow with a company. The competition is tough out there and you need to show you are better then the competition.
.
Good luck in your life and career.

Rev Jim are you going to cry soon?

.
“spent fifteen years in Boston and eighteen years in a town Northeast of NYC.”
.
Somehow you equate living with knowledge. That explains why you think you are a small business man because you drove a cab and are an economics wizard because you sat in class.
.
”
“Very good afguy you can read the poll now go ask someone what the margin of error means.”
.

I mention I did not know what the margin of error was fo rthe poll and he repeated the percentages of For/Against/Undecided and stated that’s what was in the “friggin poll I attached”
.
The logical conclusion was he had no idea what a margin of error was or he just could not plain read.
.
“Sniff. Sniff.
.
I smell it again”
.
Yes its your own filth and time for your weekly bath.
.

Well, I am off for a weekend of stealing copper from vacant buildings and foreclosed homes. At three dollars a pound, copper is my personal solution to the recession. Also, a strong magnet and a car with a hole in the floor is a great way to gather up all the manhole covers. Cast iron brings the dollars back home from China. Hope I stay clear of the law. They usually do not bother me because they are paid by the recycling facilities for a blind eye. I wear hand protection just in case.

Solving our recession takes direct action on the part of citizens 24/7. So, don’t while away the hours on some website, get out and steal something.

PS Again you never answered the original question.

I wrote:
.
“The time to cut government spending is when the households and businesses are spending a great deal of money, ie 1992 until 2001 or 2002 until 2007.”
.
” As with liberals it is never too much spending just not enough tax revenue.”
.
Once again, you have reading comprehension problems.
.
“…never mind that these pension liabilities exceed 20% of most state GDPs at this point.”
.
Another freeper, fun fake fact.
.
First, states do not have a GDP of their own.
.
Second, if 20% of our national GDP was for state pensions then each of those states would have to have a 20% income tax or taxes up to that level before paying for current employees.
.
Please go back to the third grade and come back.
.
Please learn:
.
1) Basic Reading.
.
2) Basic math.
.
3) The definition of GDP.

I am not sure if I am missing anything or not.
.
The correct answer is “no, you’re not”… trust me.

“So then why don’t you sue the government claiming the Public Broadcasting Act is unconstitutional? Let’s see how far your case goes.”
.
You then obfuscate by making it sound as if being like 53_3, a happily married man (I believe with children – not sure) who has had a long and successful career in computers is an insult.
.
I am not very similar to 53_3, but I am not insulted to be compared to him.

“And you failed at that.”
.
I left the business in 2007 since that was one of the worst years for car sales of any kind in the US in decades and was getting worse by the day:
.
“U.S. Auto Sales Fall 32% to Lowest Total in 17 Years
By Bill Koenig – November 3, 2008 17:50 EST U.S. auto sales plummeted 32 percent in October to the lowest monthly total since January 1991, led by General Motors Corp.’s 45 percent slide, as reduced access to loans and a weaker economy kept consumers off dealer lots. ”
.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=a5PrXcWxGKQ0
.
“Number of Cars in the US

According to the U.S. Department of Transpotation Statistical Records Office there are approximately 62 million registered vehicles in the U.S. at the current time and appox. 6.4 million unregistered functioning vechicles. Roughly 32% of those two numbers combined would account for Semi-Trucks, construction, heavy machinery vehicles. Stats accurate as of 02/01/05. ”
.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_cars_are_currently_in_the_US
.
If you knew basic math, you would know that 125,000 is one part per 496 cars in the US or just over 0.2%.
.
Then you are claiming that a 0.2% in supply creates a 10% increase in price?
.
So, you have failed just today at:
.
Geography.
.
Simple math.
.
Reading comprehension.
.
Constitutional law.
.
Basic manors.
.
Simple, logical thought as in you accused me of denigrating people in Kentucky when you made an insulting remark to Kentucky resident Afguy.
.
Want to quit while your ahead?

“are you going to cry soon?”
.
Me?
.
I am having a wonderful time verbally pounding you into the ground.
.
We all know that you love getting a verbal pounding. Your motto is “Sticks and stones may break my bones but whips and chains excite me.”
.
Your a masochist.
.
“Somehow you equate living with knowledge. ”
.
No, that would be your ally 3xfire3 who believes that he is right about everything since he has not yet dropped dead.
.
I equate living in, working in, shopping in, driving through and studying at a location with being familiar with the geography.
.
If we could fit all of the people who are against the Downtown cultural center into downtown to work and/or live for a few weeks, they will notice that they do not travel three blocks very often, will not see the cultural center from Ground Zero, will not pass it on the way to Ground Zero and will know what I know.
.
Why do I have this sickly feeling that you are into gay masochism: you like being beaten by men?
.
I bet that’s why you go by a handle so that we will not find your real name on gay S&M websites.

Thank you for the compliments, I may head any advice that seems wise, but I am still disappointed that you did not answer the question I had asked, the one about how you accused me of spin with out saying how I was doing it.

Playing Jeopardy with 3xfire3.
.
Trebec: The answer is On Sept. 1, 1715 Louis XIV died in this city, site of a fabulous palace he built.
.
3X: What is Waterloo?
.
Trebek: Sorry, that’s not correct.
.
3X: But I am two years older than you!
.
Trebek: I don’t give a flying duck how old you are.
.
If you think that only young people curse, watch this:
.

.
So, if you want to talk facts, find facts. Don’t just tell us that you were born in 1938. Some people who were born in 1938 were born with down syndrome. So, the fact that you have not dropped dead yet (as most people born in 1938 have not) does not help your argument. It just annoys people.

LOL
.
Mad,
.
I am not sure we often or ever agree, but you can make us laugh when you want to.

Hey retard remember in the Cash for Clunkers gift to the UAW, All used cars that were traded in were scrapped.
-
Patrick, freeinpa also failed the Sarah Palin “name calling” test

gumonshoe,
.
Sorry to take so long to reply to your post. I went to a high school football game and watch my 17 year old granddaughter. She is the Field Conductor of one of the best high school bands in the country. The band was great. The football team wasn’t.
.
“You could have elaborated that the job loss is mostly from the public sector because the census is ending. The private sector is still expanding, and rather earlier into the recession than most past recessions. We just have a longer way to go to surface with how far the economy dove.”
.
“Given this, it makes less sense to cut budgets further, as doing so will only put more stress on the public labor market which will cause further unemployment. Public austerity may be the biggest threat to the economy at the moment.”
“Hence, losing public jobs right now is bad.”
.
freeinpa’s comment
Why? It eases the burden of taxpayers now. If you can’t cut public jobs in a crisis like this you never will and the problem like every public spending problem just kicks the can down the road.
.
gumonshoe, Your question was why did I say “good spin”.
.
Actually I thought I had answered this question in my earlier posts. I will try and answer it again.
.
My perception of your comment was that you were trying to project something positive about the unemployment situation that really wasn’t justified if you look at all the data pertaining to unemployment. I don’t believe there is anything positive about the unemployment situation or numbers as a whole.
.
The Administration tried to spin the numbers a couple months ago when nearly 400,000 people were hired for the census. Spin is something that all politicians, journalist and partisan use to try and give a positive image to whatever they are promoting.
.
Again I was not accusing you of lying; only trying to put a positive spin on the unemployment situation that I felt was not warranted. Remember these are my perceptions and opinions. That does not guarantee them to be truth. Only truth as I see it. My perception.
.
One thing you will learn if you continue to post here is that people making comments really believe their views are truth where in reality they are only their perceptions of the truth.
.
For something to be real provable truth it must meet three criteria.
.
1. It must be true [not an opinion or perception]
.
2. It must be the whole truth. {Not something taken out of context. No half truths. You can not leave out part of the information in an attempt to make something look true when it is not].
.
3. And nothing but the truth. [That means you can not throw in a lot of BS and other information that’s purpose is to distort that which is the truth.
.
Anything that doesn’t meet these three criteria is not Truth. It is only someone’s opinion or perception of what is true and that does not necessarily make it true.

“You guys will defend the indefinable.”
.
“So, when called out for making stuff up, you reply with a non sequitor?
.
Interesting approach…”
.
What you guts and gals don’t understand is that when we are currently in a deep recession what is perceived as expensive vacations over seas and 5 or 6 vacations in a relative short time is not something that most voters understand as a good thing.
.
This is not about how Obama compares to Bush or carter. It’s about the impression these trips give our citizens. You will not change their perception with your comparisons or links to prove this is normal for a president.
.
Obama needs to give the impression as Bill Clinton did with his “I feel your pain” comments.
.
Stop being brain dead on stuff like this. It doesn’t help your cause. Obama does not relate well with average Americans. He needs to work on this. It’s important.

nathan,
.
Here some information I thought you might be interested in.
It’s from a very reliable polling organization “Public Policy Polling.”
.
The Poll asked Americans whether they trusted each of the Major television News Organizations in the country. The News Organization that was Most Trusted by Americans was FOX News.
.
………………….Trusted
FOX News 49%
CNN News 39%
NBC News 35%
CBS News 32%

“1. It must be true [not an opinion or perception]
.
2. It must be the whole truth. {Not something taken out of context. No half truths. You can not leave out part of the information in an attempt to make something look true when it is not].
.
3. And nothing but the truth. [That means you can not throw in a lot of BS and other information that’s purpose is to distort that which is the truth.
.
Anything that doesn’t meet these three criteria is not Truth. It is only someone’s opinion or perception of what is true and that does not necessarily make it true.”
.
And then,
.
“Stop being brain dead on stuff like this. It doesn’t help your cause. Obama does not relate well with average Americans. He needs to work on this. It’s important.”
.
So, according to what you said, what you wrote in the second quote is not “true” is an opinion.
.
With that in mind, since I, among many others, saw Bush’s vacations and cutting brush at the ranch as being asleep at the wheel (while you did not) while we were recovering from the worst terrorist attack in over a century with two wars being started and do not see Obama’s trips as anything other than an occasional break, you should put these comments into the first person and not call people who see it differently than you “brain dead”.
.
What amuses me is that liberals were all over Bush for lying about Iraq, going on vacation so often, not leaving vacation for Katrina, not going to Washington after 9/11 and being, in our perception (broadly the 75% who no longer supported Bush by 2008) out of touch. Then when Obama spends less time on vacation, addresses what the majority of the people consider important and was unable to deliver all of what was promised on HCR word for word the right is shooting back “liar” (for not completely – rather poorly – delivering on one of his promises, which is not a “lie” since it was a promise is only a lie if there is no attempt to follow through without circumstances changing) “Lazy” for going on fewer trips than Bush and, since he does not agree with the right wing agenda and does not speak about issues the right wing deems important “out of touch”.
.
It just looks like to me that the right wrote down every word Democrats, Liberals and centrists not supporting Bush said about Bush and are trying to fit in a way to say these things about Obama when they do not fit very well.
.
I can find things to complain about when it comes to Obama but I would not say “out of touch”, I would not say “lazy” and I, absolutely, would never say “liar”.

“The Poll asked Americans whether they trusted each of the Major television News Organizations in the country.”
.
Above is a list of who’s viewers are best informed.
.
Your poll proves, when combined with the previous poll, that those who are most misinformed are the ones most likely to say that they are best informed.
.
Even if your goal is to defend your extremely conservative positions, 3X, I highly recommend NPR as a source so that we will have the same information in which you may choose to take the opposite position on rather than have misleading or false information to go on.

Alright, I’m back…just in time not to have enough energy to relay that story of the disinformation campaign I most recently ran into here in NY.
.
Another time, I guess.

Patrick,
.
‘What amuses me is that liberals were all over Bush for lying about Iraq”
.
Good example of your perception which is not reality. You want to believe it so bad that you would accept unprovable sources of information to help try and prove your opinion. But it is only an opinion or perception. Not Provable Truth.
.
This is exactly what got Dan Rather fired.
.
Have to go now. It’s my wife’s and my 45 Anniversary and I have to take her to the casino. Not something I enjoy very much but “a happy wife is a happy life”.

Yes I would like to explore this subject. I would think there would be many different blames and solutions to the problem, probably most of them correct.

“‘What amuses me is that liberals were all over Bush for lying about Iraq”…
…This is exactly what got Dan Rather fired.”
.
Several things:
.
1) Swampland is nothing like an evening news broadcast because, if it were, everybody but Stuart Zechman would be fired and his long detailed, accurate and fact filled entries wouldn’t make sexy cool sound bites totitillate audiences. (But I still think Sacred should have his own late night post news comedy show after the news.)
.
2) It is documented fact that George W Bush demanded that the CIA bring him a series of intelligence reports on Husein to build a case against Iraq. Each time the CIA reports came back using reliable information, he sent them back to find more. The information he presented came from the proverbial waste paper basket of the CIA. It had no or extremely weak corroboration and would never have made it anywhere up the later ranks beneath the president had he not demanded it.
.
This is documented in the book Plan of Attack by Bob Woodward in addition to a number of New York Times, New Yorker, Boston Globe and other published reports during the year 2003.
.
(For any of the right wing who wish to say that I thought I was psychic when I was against the Iraq War in 2003 the answer is: absolutely not. I was reading outstanding news sources and was better informed that people who chose other news sources such as Fox. Reading a newspaper is not what I call a high accomplishment on my part and only say that I have a better nose for who tells the truth than Fox watchers.)
.
3) Dan Rather had expressed a great deal of support for Bush’s invasion of Iraq and by most accounts, typical of Texas natives (maybe 60%) could be more easily defined as a conservative than a liberal. So his opinions of Bush were much, much higher than how most people who define themselves as Democrats, Liberals, progressives and, very likely, than moderates.
.
It is fair to say that he had no desire to bring down president Bush.
.
4) Not being his opinion, Rather took some reasonable sounding and a very probable story that Bush, like an extremely large percentage of the children of the very well off and/or politically connected used this influence to stay out of combat in Vietnam.
.
Rather’s failure was that he used high school newspaper standards of fact checking – basically none – and had taken information as fact before discovering that the source was a somewhat weakly disguised fraud.
.
I will say that I do not know for a fact what GWB was thinking when he asked for more and more intelligence reports including discredited ones to support his case for invading Iraq nor if he had in his mind convinced himself that the most reliable sources were wrong while these unreliable sources were right or was outright lying, but, it is obvious that the reasons he gave were untrue and knowably untrue by any critical thinker willing to toss out his or her conclusion when the facts do not support it.
.
It is possible that Bush deceived himself first and, therefore, was not lying in a moral sense of the word, but, in reality, we were all presented untruths causing our country to engage in an unlawful war of aggression banned by international law.

Let me clarify and summarize and clarify the previous post:
.
1) Although a terrible error, Dan Rather made a totally different type of error that you say.
.
2) It is a fact that GWB presented information to UN, to Congress and to the American people which was both incorrect and knowably incorrect.
.
It’s a long weekend, of course, so we won’t have too much to write about until Tuesday.
.
See if you can get back to me about that in true, honest debate – not name calling and reminding us of what year you were born, etc.

afguy,
.
“So, 3x, you are opposed to any publicly-funded sources of information that might conflict with what you see as the majority point-of-view? Would you be OK with NPR if it had a RW bias (assuming your framing is accurate, which I don’t necessarily accept)? Is it the public financing you have issues with or the supposed slant of the views presented?”
.
It is the public financing. Whether it is left leaning or right leaning, I don’t think it makes sense for the government to be financially supporting any TV or Radio Channels.
.
With literally hundreds and hundreds of TV and Radio Channels out there to watch, why should tax dollars be used to support any Medias?
.
It is my perception that most consumers of NPR, etc are either middle class or upper-class in income. My perception is that the poor are not major consumers of NPR, yet money through taxes is taken from them to support these Medias. Those taxes take many forms such as Gasoline tax and many other taxes that are not part of income tax.
.
This seems unfair to the poor and something the government doesn’t really need to participate in. With the deficit and excess spending by the government, this expense makes no sense.
.
My thoughts are the same regardless of which way NPR or other government supported Medias may lean politically.

“My thoughts are the same regardless of which way NPR or other government supported Medias may lean politically.”
.
So, are you, also, opposed to PBS?
.
Are you opposed to Sesame Street?
.
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.redstaplerchronicles.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/oscar-the-grouch.jpg&imgrefurl=http://redstaplerchronicles.com/how-sesame-street-could-save-america/&usg=__7VGOVL8tdbh8-ORUnn7QzJ3axAY=&h=218&w=249&sz=14&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=HIm7YnRYOi3onM:&tbnh=133&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3Doscar%2Bthe%2Bgrouch%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26biw%3D1440%26bih%3D749%26tbs%3Disch:10%2C71&um=1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=641&ei=8IeDTMHxCYKKlwe0mfSZDg&oei=8IeDTMHxCYKKlwe0mfSZDg&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=36&ved=1t:429,r:13,s:0&tx=101&ty=57&biw=1440&bih=749
.
Considering Oscar the Grouch predated right wing radio by at least twenty years, I think it is safe to say that Sesame Street is apolitical.

3X,

I asked you questions at 2.13 and 4.17.
.
2.13: Do you see the difference between what Dan Rather did and what you said.
.
2.13: Are you aware that it seems very, very clear that GWB used knowably false information regarding WMD and had no reason to believe that Al Qada and Husein were anything other than arch enemies?
.
4.17: Since the only significant difference between NPR and PBS is that NPR uses radio and PBS uses TV, do you, also, oppose PBS?
.
(Since you are not arguing if it is constitutional or not – which is a question of fact – this is just your opinion. Also, my favorite NPR show is called Radio Lab, which is completely apolitical.)

Patrick,
.
“2.13: Do you see the difference between what Dan Rather did and what you said.”
.
No difference. Rather wanted it to be true so badly that he was willing to accept unproven facts. No hard news or any other reporter should let their person bias get in the way of truth.

“2.13: Are you aware that it seems very, very clear that GWB used knowably false information regarding WMD and had no reason to believe that Al Qada and Husein were anything other than arch enemies?”
.
Liberals are following Rather’s approach which is to lie themselfs because they want something to be true but there is no Provable Facts that George Bush lied about Iraq or anything else.
.
The Left has made this statement so often that they actually believe it to be true even though they have no real provable facts that it is true.
.
Patrick, you and all the Bush haters wish, dream, want so badly for this to be true but it is not.
.
All the stuff you will now come up with is hearsay, or unsubstantiated statement. Again they are not provable facts.
.
You will now try to prove me wrong by listing lots of stuff that you think and hope and believe is truth but none of it is.
.
“4.17: Since the only significant difference between NPR and PBS is that NPR uses radio and PBS uses TV, do you, also, oppose PBS?”.
.
Yes. It is the public financing. Whether it is left leaning or right leaning, I don’t think it makes sense for the government to be financially supporting any TV or Radio Channels.
.
With literally hundreds and hundreds of TV and Radio Channels out there to watch, why should tax dollars be used to support any Medias?
.
It is my perception that most consumers of NPR, and PBS are either middle class or upper-class in income. My perception is that the poor are not major consumers of NPR or PBS, yet money through taxes is taken from them to support these Medias. Those taxes take many forms such as Gasoline tax and many other taxes that are not part of income tax.
.
This seems unfair to the poor and something the government doesn’t really need to participate in. With the deficit and excess spending by the government, this expense makes no sense.
.
My thoughts are the same regardless of which way NPR or PBS or other government supported Medias may lean politically.

“The Left has made this statement so often that they actually believe it to be true even though they have no real provable facts that it is true.
.
Patrick, you and all the Bush haters wish, dream, want so badly for this to be true but it is not.
.
All the stuff you will now come up with is hearsay, or unsubstantiated statement. Again they are not provable facts.”
.
You do realize that if I said this about Obama if makes an error this extreme that I am in love with the idea of a black president, a “liberal” president (he is more conservative than many here in this country and many in the Swamp).
.
Listing how, prior to the invasion people who had looked at Bush’s sources and said that they lacked credibility at that moment in time prior to our first soldier deployed would fail to convince you. This is why, I would call you an ideologue.
.
Notice, for example, I am not saying that Obama did all that is possible to end this recession. I follow facts and the facts say that Obama compromised too much on the size of the stimulus package.
.
Notice that I am not saying that the economy is about to rebound tomorrow morning due to Obama because the facts will say that this is horribly slow recovery and not something Obama fixed.
.
Notice how I do not say anything about HCR other than it is an improvement from how things were, but a large disappointment.
.
Can you see, given that there were many, many intelligence experts worldwide who saw it as extremely improbable that Husein had WMD but your insistence that Bush could not have known this makes me consider you a partisan ideologue? While, finding many, many imperfections with Obama, I do not feel or act the same way towards Obama as you do Bush.
.
I think it is safe to say that you have blinders on. If there is a second stimulus package large enough to bring our economy back to where it was during the Clinton years, you would still find some way of not crediting stimulus, Obama, Democrats or Liberals, but find some other way to maintain your very conservative ideology.
.
If the media loves Obama so much, why is that whenever you put his name into WordPress both Barack and Obama come up as misspellings while George, Walker and Bush do not come up as misspelling?

Patrick,
.
Last Reply on this subject.
.
“Can you see, given that there were many, many intelligence experts worldwide who saw it as extremely improbable that Husein had WMD but your insistence that Bush could not have known this makes me consider you a partisan ideologue? While, finding many, many imperfections with Obama, I do not feel or act the same way towards Obama as you do Bush.”
.
“I think it is safe to say that you have blinders on. If there is a second stimulus package large enough to bring our economy back to where it was during the Clinton years, you would still find some way of not crediting stimulus, Obama, Democrats or Liberals, but find some other way to maintain your very conservative ideology.”
.
Even Saddam’s Top Generals believed he had a WMD program still active.
After Saddams capture he was asked why he didn’t let inspectors inspect all his sites to prove that he didn’t have a WMD program. He told them he wanted to give the impression he did have WMD as a deterrent against Iran.
.
Patrick what you fail to realize is that Bush and his advisors did believe that Saddam had a WMD program. It was their Perception and opinion based on the data that they had. So did most members of congress and most of the world leaders who had seen the same data.
.
You are a Partisan-Ideologue in that you can not accept the possibility that Bush did not lie and honestly believed the information he had proved that Saddam had a WMD program.
.
The difference between you and me and most Liberals and me is that I may strongly disagree with the policies of Obama but I do not hate him or attack him personally.
.
The Left shows so much hate towards Bush that they can’t just disagree with his policies, they must demonize him personally and can not accept the possibility that he truly believed that Saddam had WMD.
.
The difference is between my open mind and your closed mind.

“Poll: Americans Favor Bush’s Impeachment If He Lied about Iraq
Submitted by davidswanson on Tue, 2005-10-11 16:46

For Immediate Release: October 11, 2005

Poll: Americans Favor Bush’s Impeachment If He Lied about Iraq

By a margin of 50% to 44%, Americans want Congress to consider impeaching President Bush if he lied about the war in Iraq, according to a new poll commissioned by AfterDowningStreet.org, a grassroots coalition that supports a Congressional investigation of President Bush’s decision to invade Iraq in 2003.

The poll was conducted by Ipsos Public Affairs, the highly-regarded non-partisan polling company. The poll interviewed 1,001 U.S. adults on October 6-9.

The poll found that 50% agreed with the statement:

“If President Bush did not tell the truth about his reasons for going to war with Iraq, Congress should consider holding him accountable by impeaching him.”

44% disagreed, and 6% said they didn’t know or declined to answer. The poll has a +/- 3.1% margin of error.

Among those who felt strongly either way, 39% strongly agreed, while 30% strongly disagreed.

“The results of this poll are truly astonishing,” said AfterDowningStreet.org co-founder Bob Fertik. “Bush’s record-low approval ratings tell just half of the story, which is how much Americans oppose Bush’s policies on Iraq and other issues. But this poll tells the other half of the story – that a solid plurality of Americans want Congress to consider removing Bush from the White House.”"
.
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/3528
.
Since 2005, opinions of Bush have gone down, not up. This poll is not of just those who believe that he lied, but, that he should have faced impeachment for it.
.
“After Saddams capture he was asked why he didn’t let inspectors inspect all his sites to prove that he didn’t have a WMD program. He told them he wanted to give the impression he did have WMD as a deterrent against Iran.”
.
There’s your misinformation: Husein did allow inspectors into Iraq. He threw them out and then let them back in and, when Bush was pounding his fist threatening war and not offering to drop the sanctions, he threw them out again.
.
“So did most members of congress…”
.
True.
.
“… and most of the world leaders who had seen the same data…”
.
False.
.
We had almost no backing by anybody who had seen the reports from other countries intelligence service.
.
“The Left shows so much hate towards Bush that they can’t just disagree with his policies, they must demonize him personally and can not accept the possibility that he truly believed that Saddam had WMD.”
.
You have it backward and refer to over half of all Americans (half believed he should have been impeached – more than half believed that he was disingenuous). Because Bush lied so much, the majority of Americans began to hate him.
.
Clinton never accidentally attacked the wrong country. Bush Sr, not loved but not hated, never attacked the wrong country. Reagan didn’t. Carter didn’t…. No president ever before attacked the wrong country.
.
This is why Bush is hated!
.
You refuse to deal with this yet toss out things about Obama which, clearly, are untrue. The difference is between my open mind and your closed mind so closed that you do not see that Bush was disingenuous about why we went to Iraq (to win the 2004 election as a “wartime president” and give out more goodies to Haliburton, Blackwater and other cronies).

Patrick,
.
“You have it backward and refer to over half of all Americans (half believed he should have been impeached – more than half believed that he was disingenuous). Because Bush lied so much, the majority of Americans began to hate him.
.
Clinton never accidentally attacked the wrong country. Bush Sr, not loved but not hated, never attacked the wrong country. Reagan didn’t. Carter didn’t…. No president ever before attacked the wrong country.
.
This is why Bush is hated!”
.
Patrick your mind is so closed that you couldn’t tell the truth if your life depended on it.
.
I never referred to half of Americans about anything and your polls means nothing today.
.
It is not the American Public that hates Bush. It is a majority of Hateful Liberals that hate him. Liberals = Hate.
.
The American public does not hate Bush. Real Americans are not Haters like you. The may disagree with Bush’s policies but they do not hate him.
.
At the current rate of decline in Obama’s job approval ratings and the favorable ratings for Bush on the increase, we may soon see Bush with a higher favorable rating then Osama.
.
You need to grow up and get rid of all your hate. It’s a very immature trait.

“Liberals = Hate.”
.
Liberal causes:
.
Abolition of slavery. Hate of slave owners or respect for other human beings?
.
Respect.
.
End of child labor. Hate for business owners or respect for children?
.
Respect.
.
Mandatory Worker’s compensation insurance for workers and 40 hour workweek hatred for business owners and investors or respect for workers?
.
Respect.
.
Anti-trust laws. Respect for consumers, small business owner and and investors and workers or hatred of monopolies?
.
Respect.
.
Protection of worker’s rights to organize. Hatred of business owners and investors or respect for workers to join together and collectively have a greater say.
.
Respect.
.
Creation of economic safety net for unemployed and disabled, Hatred of tax payers or respect for the unemployed, elderly and ill?
.
Respect.
.
Support worker safety regulations and OSHA. Hatred of business owners and investors or respect for workers?
.
Respect.
.
Support of Environmental Protection and the EPA. Hatred for polluting sectors of the economy it’s investors and owners or respect for those who will suffer from unclean air and water encroaching on their property and into their lives?
.
Respect.
.
Support of Civil Rights. Hatred for Southern Whites or respect for all people?
.
Respect.
.
Opposition to Vietnam War for independence even though the independent government was communist. Hatred of Capitalism or respect for the lives of our draftees and the rights of the Vietnamese to independence?
.
Respect.
.
Opposition deregulation of financial industry. Hatred for finance or respect for investors?
.
Respect.
.
Opposition to Iraq War when facts do not clearly lead in that direction. Hatred for Bush or Respect for the lives of our servicemen and women as well as the lives of Iraqi civilians.
.
Respect.
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Liberals = Respect for others.
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Conservative = fear of others.
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Slave owners and conservatives feared life without their slaves and if the slaves would seek revenge.
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Conservative business owners feared that if they couldn’t hire children that wages would become unimaginably high hiring adults only.
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Conservative business owners feared that employees would all fake injuries to collect worker’s compensation rather than work.
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Investors in monopolies and conservatives feared that competition would raise prices or allow wages to become too high.
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Conservative business owners feared that allowing unions the right to negotiate that workers would ask for impossibly high salaries and drive all businesses under.
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Conservatives feared all people would stop seeking work and fake poor health for welfare.
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Conservative business owners and investors feared that workplace safety would be crippling in expense driving all businesses into closing.
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Conservative business owners and investors feared that EPA would not allow any emissions at all from industry or shut down some industries completely.
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Conservatives believed that communism was a practical economic system which would cause uprisings everywhere and a death to market based economies.
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Conservatives in financial services feared that regulators were shutting down profitable opportunities in the name of investor protections.
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Conservatives feared Arabian people and Muslim majority countries.
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Liberal = bravery and respect.
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Conservative = fear of others and cowardice sometimes turning into violence and preventable war.

3X,
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You approach the majority of the people here (just like a majority of Americans, but somewhat more progressive here) saying “I know you are!”
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I approach you and ask questions as I did Freeinpa, Earl, Rusty and two thrids and ask “who are you?”
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Each and every response I get from conservatives has to do with fear. There is fear of government regulation. There is fear of worker takeovers of businesses. Their is fear of healthy people faking illnesses to get welfare pennies. There is fear of baseless lawsuits. There is fear of Mexicans overwhelming our culture. There is a fear of Muslims taking control of parts of the country.
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Then I think of my worldview. It isn’t exciting like yours.It’s not an action adventure movie with Mexicans, Muslims, communists and government agencies attacking me. It’s more like a PBS documentary.
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I need some coffee. Life can get boring when you have nothing to be concerned about besides how to increase your income. (And nobody is out to get me.)

Patrick,
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You live in a dream world that has no bases in reality.
Must be NYC. The rest of the country has different views.
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“You live in a dream world that has no bases in reality.”
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Well, that is a disturbing statement to say about anybody.
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“Must be NYC. The rest of the country has different views.”
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I spent eighteen years in a very Republican dominated NYC suburb and fifteen years in Boston and five years in NYC and meet people who are originally from all around the United States and all around the world who now reside in NYC.
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Finding a persons religion, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish or Muslim completely insignificant in terms of figuring out anything about their personality and/or character may be a reason that Muslims and Mexicans are not even vaguely frightening to me.
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As for GWB – those stats were taken nationwide, not just liberal parts of the United States.
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I get my ideas about Bush from sources like this:
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“On Sept. 18, 2002, CIA director George Tenet briefed President Bush in the Oval Office on top-secret intelligence that Saddam Hussein did not have weapons of mass destruction, according to two former senior CIA officers. Bush dismissed as worthless this information from the Iraqi foreign minister, a member of Saddam’s inner circle, although it turned out to be accurate in every detail. Tenet never brought it up again.”
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http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/61793/cia_told_bush_there_were_no_wmd_in_iraq_in_2002/
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Using Gallop polls, as well”
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“The 71% saying Bush should get blamed was a modest decline from the 80% who felt that way about a year ago, in July 2009.

What about President Obama?

In the July 2009 poll, a third, 32%, said he should shoulder a great deal or moderate amount of the blame. That percentage has risen — no surprise, given that he’s been in office for 20 months. Now almost half, 48%, do. But 51% say he’s dealing with problems he inherited, not created, saying he deserves not much or none of the responsibility for economic problems that include high unemployment and a faltering housing market.

There was, predictably, a yawning partisan divide on the question. Republicans by 4-1, 44%-10%, were more likely to give Obama a great deal of the blame than Bush. Democrats by more than 20-1 targeted Bush: They said the former president bore a great deal of the blame; just 3% said that of the current one.”
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http://content.usatoday.com/communities/theoval/post/2010/09/poll-george-w-bush-obama-economy/1
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“August 20, 2010
In U.S., Slim Majority Says Iraq War Will Be Judged a Failure
Most doubt that Iraqi forces can maintain order in Iraq
by Jeffrey M. Jones

PRINCETON, NJ — More Americans believe history will judge the Iraq war as a failure (53%) rather than a success (42%). These views have varied little over the past few years even as Americans have become more positive in their assessments of how the war is going.”
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3X,
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In the United States, excluding my support for the Downtown Islamic Center – which people who live in Manhattan (where I work) not as much as Queens (where I live and work from home) do support – I am amongst the majority on my opinion of GWB as a complete failure, somebody who made a totally irresponsible error or lie by getting our country into an illegal war of aggression and that he was a complete failure as a president.
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I believe the term “dream world” is a little harsh, but, I believe that your small town in Northwestern Ohio and your circle of friends there and in other parts of the Northern Midwest are atypical of America in general.
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I will say that I am more patient than average with Obama and am prone to believing that GWB is typical of modern Republicans rather than an aberration, but, you have to stop claiming that you are in the center nor are even aware where the political center of this country is.

You live in a dream world that has no bases in reality. Must be NYC. The rest of the country has different views. – 3xfire3
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3x, Is that it? So now NYC is no longer part of your Sarah Palin’s Real America™?
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Oh..does that include Ground Zero as well?

Patrick,
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Congratulations you are the best Googler I know.
Maybe someday as you gain more experience you will have knowledge other than what you find on the internet.
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Remember everything you find on the internet is not necessarily provable fact. Much is someone’s opinion. You need to take that information and combine it with, that what you know to be true from life experiences, to actually discover real truth.
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“Congratulations you are the best Googler I know….Remember everything you find on the internet is not necessarily provable fact.”
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Although Freeinpa would call this bragging, I don’t call it bragging at all, I use Google for work constantly.
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When I cold call a CEO, I get the information about the company, usually the CEO’s name somewhere online (company websites are, obviously, the very best source).
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The accuracy rate is astonishingly high.
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For facts on controversial issues, you must choose the source carefully. Some are far more accurate than others.
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Gallup is one of the best.
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It is clear that those who are going to vote Republican this November, well over half of them are not supporters of Bush and hope for the Republicans to be far, far different than what GWB did.
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GWB has about 25% support.
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To get more than 50% of the vote, you will need more than 25% who do not like Bush but will vote Republican.
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Hence, if the Republicans repeat themselves, they will have to kiss their jobs goodbye in 2012 and will be handing Obama a re-election victory on a silver platter.
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Sure, I would love a 2012 victory for Democrats and Obama. But, I wish that to be based by 2010 through 2012 to be a strong economic recovery and popular legislation going through, not people voting against two years of being crippled by partisan infighting.