Latest Column

Hey Swamplanders—
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How ’bout a good, old-fashioned “No Feeding Thursday” for old time’s sake? Whaddaya say?

Rather than pick a group of people to come up with solutions perhaps we could have the people decide who should be in that group.
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Maybe two groups, one determined by population and one less democratic, maybe a couple per state.
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Have them accountable to the people.

Perhaps it’s time to turn that process upside down.

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We shall Joe Klein. It is called November 2nd, election day. Once we throw out all the bums in Congress who have pilfered our treasury, passed insane legislation benefiting the special interest groups of the liberals, then once again tranquility will reign across the land.
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Despite the elitist liberals thought that most Americans are as I will quote you Joe Klein, “STUPID”, Americans have common sense. The know it makes economic sense if you spend more than you make, you will soon go bankrupt. We know socialism and all its various forms also fail miserably.
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We know when our freedom and liberty is under attack. We know when a so-called “mandate” is unconstitutional.
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We know when Freedom of Religion is used to build a mosque near and at the center of the most recent attack is simply not the right thing to do, not based on the Freedom of Religion to do so, which of course they have, but the insensitivity of doing it is merely a slap in the face to most all Americans.
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We know when our media as you represent are nothing more than shills for Obama’s White House, Nancy Pelosi’s House and Harry Reid’s Senate. We understand your bias, and you are next to be scorned and removed for not doing your job.
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We know when Congress is totally out of touch, and we know then to go to the polls to vote them out of office. You are witnessing history. Americans are not longer asleep. They have awoken, and they are PI$$ED!!

I think we need to expand the House of Representatives to about three or four times its present membership so that Reps would have smaller, less money-required-to-run districts, and we should have each Rep work out of an office in his/her home district all year (with perhaps two non-voting months in Washingtom to start the year and get organized, and thereafter they would collaborate on legislation electronically and then vote on it electronically from “home”). That way the people would have better access to their elected officials, and accountability would be increased as local media could better cover each Rep daily. It would also be harder for special interests to influence such a dispersed House.

“People are tired of the elites telling them what to do,” says Fishkin. Perhaps it’s time to turn that process upside down.”

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“They took it from the top to the bottom. We’re gonna take it from the bottom to the top!”

- Dan Wallace

http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2010/07/10/we-have-heard-reports/

Here’s a thought. How about, once a day, you state your views

1. as positive principles rather than opposition to someone else’s;

2. without calling anyone names that you wouldn’t (I hope) call a guest in your home;

3. while acknowledging the possibility that those who disagree with you might be intelligent citizens of goodwill and good intentions who hold their beliefs honestly.

How about it?

Newfreedomblog, where were you pissing when George W. Bush and his cronies were spending this nation into bankruptcy by mismanaging wars and giving tax breaks to the rich? I know the answer: On the rest of us! Your sudden rage against deficit spending and incompetance in the White House seems more scatalogical than urinary to me.

I’d be very interested in his employment projections over the next 3 or 3 quarters if the Republican Tea Party “economic plan” is implemented, once they take back the nation.

Because the budget is some insanely long thing that covers hundreds of thousands of different issues and some insane number of trillions of dollars for a process that may not actually be scalable. If people are more intelligent in smaller groups, would 500 people be too many? Would 500 be enough to be reasonably representative of the needs of the populace? How do you reasonably pick a representative sample – do you use Senate or House concept or a mix of both? As the process gets more and more experienced, how do lobbyists and corruption set in or do they?
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But all of that is irrelevant to the point that, while this is a reasonably inventive idea that might work, it is a relatively new idea that’s generally been tested at a civic level. I doubt there are many people in Washington including bureaucrats who’ve spent decades working on these budgets who truly know more than 10% of what’s in the budget.
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It’s an interesting idea that I’d love to see tried in cities and possibly move up to county or state levels to see how they do. But that doesn’t mean that this should be the plan of President Obama – maybe a successor 20 years from now, but not yet.

That didn’t last long….

This sounds like a great idea. Selecting people that have not been elected to office and won’t lose their job for making tough decisions might get the country moving to a rational direction.

I am really tired of all the name calling.

Joe…Joe…Joe…

The people have spoken…time and time again. However, Obama and company, in their infinite wisdom, saw fit to ignore them continually. Witness the ram-through of Obama Care regardless of marches, meetings, signs, and banners.

To the elitist, like Mr. Obama, the man in the street, or Joe 6-Pack, is a dumb clod, incapable of discerning what is right for him and this country. Except, of course, when they voted him into office.

Hmmm…then again, maybe he is right! They don’t know what is best for them.

I love this idea, Joe. Cynics will of course object that 500 people randomly picked from our population will be too stupid, lazy and ill-informed to make good decisions but I think, as with the vast majority of juries convened in this country, that if you give people access to the information they need, a voice and a way to express civic responsibility that they will rise to the occasion.

It would also be a nice way to interject the concerns of ordinary people into the debate. Everyone on the deficit panel is wealthier than average. Some are very, very wealthy. These people have no idea what having Social Security increases tied to prices rather than wages will do to the purchasing power of a family with average means. They have no worries about how hard it will be to keep working until you’re 70 and perhaps beyond. The perspective of people living as most Americans do is vital to this.

I’d love to see such panels convened, not just on this issue but on many others. I’m sure somebody will show up here lecturing you about what you already know: “We’re a Republic!” But this doesn’t threaten that in the least. The Republic’s representatives can certainly use an age-old and time tested way of at least trying to figure out what the people’s priorities are and once those are ascertained, those same representatives could at least give those priorities a vote without shenanigans.

Great column.

“If people think their voice actually matters, they’ll do the hard work, really study their briefing books, ask the experts smart questions and then make tough decisions. When they hear the experts disagreeing, they’re forced to think for themselves. About 70% change their minds in the process.”
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You know, I’ve seen people who argue that we should give the legislature, not the courts, final say over the meaning of the Constitution make that exact same argument.
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A thought-provoking argument. Lord knows our political discourse could use some improving…

Sure Joe…let the people decide, like California, then nullification sets in from the unelected, undemocratic, courts. Great Idea. How about a Republic, separation of powers, pretty much like our founders intended. Maybe even what you learned from that American Culture major of yours.

Which brings us back to a favorite topic of mine: what prominent opinion makers of today…those of my generation …were doing back in their formative years. This arguably was the most selfish generation in history. But not for all. Some people put it on the line, others under the bed…keeping their options open. The guys who finessed it seem to have come out the end more than OK.

Anyway, does anyone know how tall Joe is? The word is that 5 foot was the cut off for Nam. Less than 5 foot is seriously short. Is that Joe? Is that how he avoided the draft? We are now getting into Garden Gnome range. Which could explain a thing or two about his views. Seriously, if you were witness to the passing parade from a small perch in the garden, you’d be pretty much a “politics of victimization” guy yourself.

Newfreedom and Mycophile,

“Mycophile’s Comment
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“Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, after hearing the closing arguments of the attacking defense, I rest my case.”
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You’re Honor as Foreman of the Jury I am reporting that the Jury has reached a verdict in this very important case.
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Please go to post 42 and 42.1 in “Glenn Beck, Heretic to learn the verdict .

College deferment? Didn’t have his number called? Why should anyone have to explain themselves to you, anyway? Why is whether or not people were drafted during the Viet Nam war “your favorite topic?” Get over it. The nation has moved on and we’ll never have another immoral draft again.

I like the idea of asking people to make decisions who are not self-selected. It’s the self-selection process that brings people to the table who have fervent views on one side or the other.

In parts of New England we still have citizen deliberations on issues before deciding them, at town meetings. Some are still all-day affairs where you have to listen to your long-winded neighbors, but as a consequence pov’s do get changed.

It strikes me that juries are the closest thing we have to the process you’re describing. Works pretty well most of the time.

As an aside, I’m glad TIME online now publishes the illustration with your column. Sometimes the illustration puts a slant on your column or even emphasizes a point of view that isn’t apparent from a text reading, and I’m surprised when I catch the same column in a dead tree edition.

It strikes me that Alan Simpson has done the Democrats a great favor by discrediting his position with such bald insults to various groups – the latest being the suggestion that Vietnam vets “aren’t helping this country” because they want to include coverage for some more illnesses under the agent orange provisions. Nasty vets, wanting to get money that should be going to billionaires tax cuts.

Sad face…

Count me in. I took the next couple of days off from work (use or lose vacation time) and will be going to the Canfield County Fair so I won’t be around. The only thing I’ll be feeding is my face.

Well we could just throw out the Constitution and start over. Say turn it over to some bureaucrat to determine who, what and, how many of each serve. Then we would have just the right amount of old folks, young folks, middle age folks, black folks, red folks, yellow folks, brown folks, white folks, Catholic folks, Lutheran folks, Atheist folks, etc. Not only that but, by age, social standing, economic standing in each group.
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The we could argue about who get’s the 4/5ths of something left over.
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Then we could break up into City States, form our own Military, build walls around our cities, make sure the farmers are taxed in produce, say 75% of what they grow for the City. We could appoint a Land Baron, name some serfs.
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Oh goody, goody, goody, I can hardly wait.

Oooh, oooh, Paul, I get it! And we could call these two groups: Crooks and Liars! No, wait. House and Senate. Well, maybe crooks and liars is more accurate….

Once the kleroterion is formed, they should take turns being an “executive Officer of the Week”. Of course, all executive decisions need to be ratified by a 2/3s majority in the case of external affairs, or a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs….

Tsk…Tskk…an opinion from the younger “progressive..liberal..caring generation” , which is now basking in their glory… doing so well and all. Joe’s age is such that once he graduated he could no longer get a deferment, nor did he go to graduate school with an automatic deferment (medicine, dentistry, or divinity}. The number system came well after this potential exposure. So the progressive shrug : “yea dude, whatever” doesn’t quite work.
You and your ilk, would no doubt be screaming to the high heavens if Glenn Beck were of that generation, and his history unknown. So , there you have it: what’s the deal Joe? Even this guy, lips dripping with the Kool Aid, deserves an answer

As to ones obsessions, well that is perhaps mine. Does Joe owe me an explanation–yea I think he does.
He is a posturer–Implying more knowledge, more information…if you will, more experience. What exactly is that experience–on this point, so fundamental to the EXPERIENCE of his generation.

As to your obsessions. Ohhh I suppose, filling out forms, applications and the like, all to increase your share of the Government pie. Am I right?

If that was only true

This post wasn’t a problem because it was oppositional, or even because falls back on talking points for its base.
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The problem with the response I’m replying to is that it is entirely off topic. Klein’s article was in many ways critical of the President’s handling of a particular issue. More particularly it was critical of the process used in Washington to get things done.
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This has little to do with the election in November, and is only tangentially related to what came out of healthcare. This latest column was about the structure that policy is formed in, not the results of our current structure or of future elections.
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Perhaps posts from a user like this should just be deleted. They are off topic, they don’t deal with content, and they derail the discussion. I was a moderator at http://www.newgrounds.com for well over a year (You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy), but even there going off topic this far was cause enough to have a post deleted, and possibly get a vacation.

erg, logging in whiped the fact that I was replying newfreedomblog….
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Apologies

Joe,

A sublime idea. Thank you for putting it out there.

Strikes me as an idea that could unite many partisans, on either side.

The challenge of course is replacing pluto-terion with klero-terion (and avoiding klepto-terion).

Regards.

How about we remove special interest money out of the system and that no politician can join a lobbying company for a set amount of years? What’s killing our political system isn’t enough peoples involvement; it’s how money shapes legislation and how your average voter is only good come election and ignored pretty much between elections.

You think GOP listens to the p!ssed off masses? Name one single idea other then no or repeal that they’re offering? People are mad because they’re scared. The economy isn’t rebounding as quickly as their internet speed and the idea of sacrifizes doesn’t sit well with the instant gratification population.

What’s killing us isn’t too liberal ideas or too consevatives ideas; it’s how the ideas doesn’t matter when our political system is flooded by money that perverts our governments role.

I laugh every time some rightie talk about socialism because what we have today isn’t socialism; it’s corporatism – our private market is drowned by powerful corporate interest that is slowly choking the life out of small and medium businesses. When you look at the facts taxes are low and most places offer incentives and tax breaks to get companies to invest but as long as we have a political system that allow slarge corporations to move their profits abroad while using our infrastructure to sell cheaply made cr@p from China or other trade nations, there’s very little mom and pop shops can do to compete.

There’s absolutely nothing that our political system have vested in changing that dynamics as long as we get all emotional about something is idiotic as socialism. What we have is corporate wellfare and every single bill today stinks of it.

That’s why our political system sucks – not because people don’t have more to say about it, but because our politicans can take ‘bribes’ all day long without giving regular citizens one single thought.

/rant off

Abolish the Senate and revoke the personhood of corporations.

So you served, I take it?

No , of course not, I was under the bed. Am I right about the obsession with forms?

“I was a moderator at….”

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First I would like to invite you to go back to where ever it was you came from to do some more “moderating”
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Then I would like to ask one simple question. When did it become a rule anywhere in the swamp that any comment had to conform to what YOU believe is the essence of one of Joe Klein’s stupid posts?
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Once you consider that question, perhaps you can moderate yourself and ask Joe Klein’s new “committee” how exactly any of the swamp rules should or should not be interpreted. That way once the collective which has been assembled amoung non-elected representatives can choose what should be and what should not be good swamp behavior or comments.
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How’s that for a reply for “This latest column was about the structure that policy is formed in, not the results of our current structure or of future elections.”?????
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Nope. Not big enough to warrant a bailout. Were I to lose my job I would definitely avail myself of the government services offered to me while I tried to find another but surely you see that’s fair, right? For the timebeing I pay my taxes to help fund such unemployment insurance benefits, meager though they are.

If you did serve I was just going to say that I admire your bravery even though I disagree with the policy that put it into action but, whatever.

That was pretty on topic for a person who willfully ignores points made my others all the time.
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You are a horrible community member because you fail to discuss every day you post.

It seems to me that If newfreedomblog has a blog named newfreedom blog to proper thing to due would be to link to Joe’s story at newfreedom blog and then pontificate to his hearts content on his own blog, NO? I think any regular reader of this blog is aware or newfreedomblogs opinions. Why should we have to listen to the same lame talking points over and over again, all off topic and available all over the web.

revoke the person hood of corporations.

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We can only do that to people.

Classy reply. Listen you and I have different opinions but to some extent this whole thing is a lot like professional wrestling , and we are each playing our roles.. albeit for no reward. I did not serve, and to some extent have felt a certain amount of guilt since then. People who stood up , one way or another, are to my mind real heros. They risked something, a lot of something. Joe and I , are not in that category. Yet we have both done well. For your generation, it is hard to grasp how important this time was for ours. I can assure you, Joe did not forget how he got out of it. He knows, and I think it would be informative for us all to know. The reason? The same reason, albeit on a much smaller scale, it is important when one reads and evaluates my obnoxious posts.

Joe Klein perked my attention with “Primary Colors”. Why would he lie? Particularly with something so integral to his profession–his integrity. Then recently he has upped the ante. Demeaning Charles Krauthammer for his paraplegic status..a conservative could not have survived , let alone thrive. I have never seen any apology or remorse from Klein for any of this. If you have , I would like to know. He took an almost visceral responsibility for the Obama administration’s success, and almost pathological hatred for a competitor: all things regarding Rupert Murdoch, Fox etc. His appearances got to be more and more confrontational — lots of name calling, demeaning etc. Look at his stint with Beck last week end on Matthews’ show.

Which got me thinking. If he blows-off his integrity this easy now, for heavens sake, how did he handle the seminal event of his generation. I’ve a feeling, not so pretty, and with no guilt at all.

“…revoke the personhood of corporations.”

All centrist solutions start by ignoring the actual problem.

Well, MCal, I think we just have very different perspectives about this and you’re right, it comes from our experiences. But I’m glad that our discussion took this friendly turn. All the best to you. I’m now convinced that even when we disagree you mean well and that counts for a lot. All the best to you and have a great long weekend.

Get over who served in Vietnam. As I stated in another post, I knew those who served honorably in Vietnam and those who honorably chose not to. It was a terrible choice for anyone.

Simpson is replacing McCain as the “get off my lawn” guy. He was always outspoken in the Senate but he has reached a new level of perhaps dementia.

http://news.yahoo.com/comics/non-sequitur
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Here is a perfect illustration hippooath of what you are saying. Lobbyist access rules.

“What’s killing us isn’t too liberal ideas or too consevatives ideas; it’s how the ideas doesn’t matter when our political system is flooded by money that perverts our governments role.”
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Well said.

Here’s a thought. How about, once a day, you state your views

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Perhaps if I stated my dislilke of most of Joe Klein’s articles and posts to the swamp in the form of questions you would not seem to think they are all negative.
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Positive statements are indeed generally good from the start, however, in Joe Klein’s world unless he is met with the negative feedback he will never post anything positive to the counter-argument.
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Perhaps when you have been in the swamp for a little while, you may come to appreciate this.
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The anger which currently prevails in near record numbers across this country of ours is expressed in negative terminology. I don’t think it is going to go away anytime soon, even if you rephrase your comments to be more positive rather than negative in tone.
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And to answer danielatlanta’s question, the answer would be no. I had not as of that time grabbed my A$$ and jerked it out of the grasp of my couch. Now I am disengaged from the couch, and engage in what is happening to our great country. I hope to be forever vigiliant no matter who the individual is that holds the office of the White House as President, and those in control of Congress from this point forward. I am truly sorry I missed the opportunity to have read what you wrote about Bush II at the time. Perhaps you have saved some of your comments or links to the sites where you were engaged.

You are too young to say “get over it”, and there is nothing new to your current post. How about: “Joe, this jerk wants to know what you did in the formative years of your life…tell him that the lying only came recently…tell him that the name calling and intolerance of others is only a recent passing fad..tell him Joe…from all of us that support you, and dare say love you,and buy your magazine, and look forward to seeing you on shows no one else is watching..and buy your books that are continually selling less and less copies..and those who wait for you on your silly little road trip…and get all squilly when you make fun of Glenn Beck… and that no you aren’t suffering from some media equivalent of Napoleonic syndrome like he says, and that the Garden Gnome thing is out and out rude…tell him so that we will never have to see his crummy posts on YOUR blog sites ever again.” Yea, that pretty much does it.

mcal: I am 69 years old. I sat around many a dinner table in the 60s while young men decided how they would handle the draft. All were conflicted, all were good people. Some served. Some were injured. Some died. Some protested. Some went to Canada. Some became conscientious objectors. Some took care of the wounded. Some, like Cheney and Limbaugh, and Bush used subtrifuge to avoid service.
Not quite as defensible. But, it was a complex time. I truely wish my friends who died for that war had found a way out. I wish our government hadn’t taken us into a immoral war and then learned nothing and took us into Iraq.
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I am sure many young people understand the futility of Vietnam and Iraq and have a right to speak out about it. After all, it is the young who most often die in the service of our wars.

“The People” have never spoken in one voice.
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that is, when has even a super majority voted for the same Presidential ticket? Or how often has that happened for any federal office?
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What we have is a “winner-take-all” system, wherein “winners” claim “mandates” even if they were elected by 20% of the electorate.

i won’t belabor this thread with an essay on the subject, but my own experiences with “consensus”, “majority rule”, “conflict resolution”, “collaborative problem solving” ,etc., have convinced me that Fiskin’s approach is based on very sound principles. It is quite similar to a proposal I once made for how to run a produce grower’s marketing cooperative (instead of me, the most experienced marketer, doing do.) It is very easy for me to believe it is a very good and practical idea — a way to effectively have participatory democracy in a nation so large.
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Our system was designed for a far smaller, far less complex, society. It long ago exceeded its bounds of efficiency.

newfreedomblog, I posted thousands of comments online about George W. Bush, starting in 1999, when I saw then that he was an empty suit. I had a letter to the editor printed in USA Today on inauguration day 2001 bemoaning the Bush presidency. I don’t know if any of the online stuff I posted about Bush is extant, but I have a long 30-year record of opposing the Reagan, Bush I, Clinton (for his moral lapses and lack of effort for the environment and energy) presidencies, and most of all the incredibly inept presidency of GWB and his cronies. And, for the most part, time has proven me correct in my assessments.

Yer foolin’ yerself! We’re living in a dictatorship. A self-perpetuatin’ autocracy in which the workin’ classes . . .

Nice , thoughtful post… and you seemed to have a more “younger sprit” to your posts.. which is why I assumed a more tender age. You are totally correct about Bush, Cheney et al, but don’t be so partisan to forget Clinton. “Complications” occurred on both sides of the political spectrum . I will give you other ones: how about David Stockman…he went to divinity school…. like old Dave wanted to be a preacher. But so did Al
Gore–until he figured it would be politically wise , and safe to go as Army Press. I’m sure there was no manipulation by Dad here-the Sr Sen from Tenn. Like John Fogerty said in his consummate anti Viet-Nam “Favorite Son”. “I ain’t no favorite son…I ain’t no senator’s son.” Thats Al : hero to the left. Then how about John Engler, ex Republican gov of Michigan. He ate himself out of Viet Nam. While John McCain was getting his teeth kicked in, Engler was eating Ring-Dings so he could fatten up , and not pass the physical.

But that is my point: those who finessed often did well…even Me. The opinion makers, like Joe, should be open about how they themselves handled the situation. They write about war, expound on the political realities that bring about war, and weigh-in on the policy makers who make those decisions. If he were writing about science, religion, any number of things, it wouldn’t mean diddly.

mcal4402: My husband had a deferment because he was married and had 2 kids. If he hadn’t been, he had a doctor family friend who would have testified to a “football knee”.
There were many Dems who managed to avoid the war and brave ones like John Kerry who participated.
My point is that no one needs to apologize for their service during the war except those that took us to Vietnam and now, those that took us to Iraq.

how about we just “fix” the Senate by requiring that legislative bills deal with only one issue at a time, and do away with all the arcane rules that pervert bringing things to a vote?

Allow everyone to vote on every issue before the nation. No such thing as home rule then. Could extend that to criminal trials too. No need for the House, the Senate, or the President. Just make sure that one person has one vote for each and every issue nationwide. Then, things will be right.

The legal concept of a corporation as a person seems odd at first. However, it is necessary. Many people do not like the concept. A certain inequity is involved but that is the nature of life in general.

necessary?
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How so?
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Necessary for what or whom?
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not me.