Just How Damaging Was the Health Care Debate for Dems?

Two Gallup polls this week confirmed what’s become obvious – Democrats seem headed for an electoral bloodbath in this year’s congressional mid-term elections.

First, Gallup announced Republicans have the largest lead in the outfit’s history when voters are asked which party they prefer in the upcoming congressional elections. Then today, Gallup released a poll showing that voters believe Republicans handle terrorism, immigration, federal spending, the economy, Afghanistan, and jobs better than Democrats. (The Democrats are better on the environment, said those surveyed.)

The second Gallup poll also also showed that voters are evenly split on whether Republicans or Democrats would better handle health care. Democrats have historically been viewed as far more trustworthy on this issue, meaning this latest set of poll results feeds into an emerging conventional wisdom – that Democrats grossly underestimated the political damage of pushing through health care reform and that the issue is a primary reason Democrats are set up for big losses come November.

“…it’s pretty obvious that the Democrats’ electoral woes are directly tied to the passage of the health care bill,” says Jame Hamsher, founder of the progressive website Firedoglake.com.

Hamsher, who opposed the final legislation, points to polls she commissioned in swing districts showing the unpopularity of the health care bill and the individual mandate, in particular. She also cites an analysis by Jay Cost of Real Clear Politics that concludes:

It would be difficult for any strong partisan to admit that such an accomplishment was so deeply unpopular. Yet the polling is pretty unequivocal on the relationship between the Democrats’ fortunes and the health care bill. It was during the health care debate that the essential building block of the Democratic majority – Independent voters – began to crumble. It was evident in the generic ballot. It was evident in the President’s job approval numbers. It was evident in Virginia, New Jersey, and Massachusetts.

Reconstructing the Democrats’ meme, we can fairly say that the economy is a huge problem for the party. Of this, there can be no doubt. We can also say that the stalled recovery denied the Democrats a chance to win back the voters they lost over health care. But the process and passage of health care reform were crucial elements in the story. That’s when the party started losing the voters it needs to retain control of the government.

The latest monthly tracking poll from the Kaiser Family Foundation appears to provide evidence that Democrats are losing even more ground on health care, despite Administration predictions that the law would get more popular once people learned more about it. The August Kaiser poll, released this week, says support for the new health reform law is evenly split, just a month after its polls showed 50% supporting the law and just 35% opposing it.

Taken together, Hamsher and Cost’s analyses and the Kaiser result seem to suggest health care reform was a huge loser for Democrats that they’ll pay for in November. But it’s worth looking deeper into the Kaiser results.

Thirty-four percent of those surveyed said they would likely oppose a member of Congress if they voted for reform. But 31% said a vote for reform would make them likely to support a candidate. And 17% of Democrats surveyed – who are more likely to support the new law – said reform was the most important issue to them. Just 9% of Republicans 8% of independent said this. (Jobs and economy ranked #1 in the Kaiser survey and the latest Gallup poll.)

Numbers guru Nate Silver says it’s basically impossible to measure exactly how determinative any factor – health reform, the economy, the oil spill – has been in causing Democratic poll numbers to plummet.

So is, as Jane Hamsher suggests, health care directly related to the Democrats’ current woes? I think yes, but the answer may be a little more ephemeral than any survey result or poll can show. The debate over reform and ugly side of politics that was put on display – the backroom deals, the dishonest rhetoric – most definitely fed into voters’ anti-incumbent feelings. And the Democrats are in power now, with control of the White House and Congress. So the party itself can be seen as an incumbent, just as much as any one candidate. In addition, as Silver wrote in July, the push for health care came at the worst point possible in terms of the economy.

1. In October 2008, the Bush administration (with significant support from Democrats in Congress) passed a roughly $800 billion bailout bill, which it pitched as being necessary to avert a near-term economic catastrophe.

2. In February 2009, the Obama administration (with near-universal support from Democrats in Congress) passed a roughly $800 billion stimulus bill, which it pitched as being necessary to avert a near-term economic catastrophe.

3. Employment reports which came out between February 2009 and July 2009 showed the economy losing 3.7 million jobs, far worse than what most economists were anticipating: an economic catastrophe.

4. It was about at this point that the Democrats began their public push for another roughly $800 billion bill, this time in the form of health insurance reform, which they pitched as being necessary to avert a long-term economic catastrophe.

The combination of these four events was going to make it a tough slog for health care reform, to put it mildly. Even if (2) and (3) had occurred, but the bailout hadn’t, the Democrats probably would have been OK. But if two $800B bills would have been a coincidence in the public’s mind, the third one made for a pattern, and it was a pattern juxtaposed against the background of an economy which was getting worse rather than better.

Related Topics: gallup, Health Care, health reform, jane hamsher, jay cost, kaiser, nate silver, obama, poll, Uncategorized
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  • allthingsinaname

    There was no debate. There was the Press gleefully repeating the most outrages claims of the right. Period That sums up this post and the issue of debate.

  • Paul-no not that one

    Barely pass a poor bill and it costs at the polls? Crazy.
    .
    Or to put it another way.
    .
    “Thus Democrats will be forced into a corner by an incredible irony: The big solutions they have been proposing for health care reform, which the American people have significantly rejected, were not big enough.”

  • grape_crush

    Gallup announced Republicans have the largest lead in the outfit’s history
    .
    You may want to take that with a grain of salt.

  • allthingsinaname

    2288 Life and physical health are precious gifts entrusted to us by God. We must take reasonable care of them, taking into account the needs of others and the common good.
    .

    Concern for the health of its citizens requires that society help in the attainment of living-conditions that allow them to grow and reach maturity: food and clothing, housing, health care, basic education, employment, and social assistance.
    .
    http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a5.htm#2288

  • Ivy_B

    How many articles were there about death panels for example? How many times was that lie repeated on tv “news” programs? How many times was Chuck Grassley (who was supposed to be negotiating in good faith) shown to be a deceitful liar?

    How much time have the Democrats spent pointing out the very good things that will come from this as opposed to cowering under the bed?

    The press spent all the time since the election looking for controversy — facts, not so much.

    The thing I blame Obama for most is that he insisted that the other side would negotiate in good faith even after it was absolutely clear – a story about Mitch McConnell’s intent was in the NYTimes for Pete’s sake – that they would not. I hope he enjoys all the baseless investigations that are going to tie up the rest of his term because of it.

  • grape_crush

    And then there’s this, which doesn’t fit the ‘Dems are doomed’ narrative very well.

  • grape_crush
  • allthingsinaname

    It is hard to say when the polls open what will happen. One could hope that people will come their senses and, see what shallow, empty rhetoric the GOP has produced

  • square1

    In addition, as Silver wrote in July, the push for health care came at the worst point possible in terms of the economy.

    Kate Pickert is officially the Wanker of the Day.

    Earth to Pickert! People have been increasingly clamoring for HCR for about two decades. Why? Because their insurance continues to skyrocket and they are being bankrupted by either rising insurance premiums, uncovered medical expenses, or both.

    First, a properly drafted HCR plan would have addressed these concerns. There is no better time for lowering the health insurance and medical care costs of both companies and individuals than right now when people are being squeezed by the economy.

    Second, even if we accept that the HCR bill that passed did not significantly reduce private-sector costs, the HCR bill REDUCED THE DEFICIT. That is, the spending that was contained in the bill offset greater government spending that would have occurred anyway.

    To be clear, I don’t dispute the premise that the bill is unpopular. Although, once again, the press makes no effort to distinguish between its being unpopular because it did “too much” or “too little”.

    But the assertion that the bill came at a “bad time” vis-a-vis the economy is just completely at odds with the evidence.

  • charlieromeobravo

    It’s sad that the general public is so poorly informed. It’s especially sad that the Republican electorate is especially badly informed. Unless you’re a very close follower of the news and make an effort to get your information from a variety of sources. As that can be very time consuming, it’s very difficult to blame the public at large but it’s still very frustrating. If the public were better informed and they were able to separate fact from politically motivated, willful misinformation and the poll numbers wouldn’t look like they do right now.

  • edismeiamhe

    Was the Health Care debacle damaging to the Democrats…you bet.

    However, it gave the citizens a good first taste of the Socialist approach to dealing with the public.

    That is, actions are to be rammed through, by lying , cheating, stealing and conniving if necessary. After all, to the true Socialist, “The end justffies the means”.

    There was a saying in my line of work, Sewer Sanitation, “Don’t crap on the rungs of the ladder on the way up, you may have to slide through it on the way down”

    Now the poor old lefty libs, ably assisted by The Big “0″, and Harry and Nancy, having crapped all over the majority of Amercians, are going to have to slide through it at the polls in November.

    Tsk…tsk…tsk

    Since they will be out of work shortly, and With their obvious experience and natural inclinations, I could offer Harry and Nancy a position in the sewer,..probably even as high as Senior Sewage Suckers. I would reserve an even higher post for the Big “0″…Chief of Policy…he can camouflage crap so completely, it will almost sound edible..

  • nflfoghorn

    This is kinda like the polls about approval of Congress overall vs. the approval of you individual congressman. Overall approval is like 20% but most people like their incumbents. Keep in mind that only seven members have lost seats. The more things change….

  • allthingsinaname

    Good Government requires the good will of the people. I was looking for that in your post. I didn’t find it

  • freeinpa

    “Just How Damaging Was the Health Care Debate for Dems?”

    More accurately it should read “Just ow Damaging Was the Health Care Debate for Dems?”

    =
    The tiresome meme of it was communication, the public was misinformed by (pick your favorite Republican/Conservative target), they lied about everything is 100% unadulterated liberal crap. It’s intrusive, it doesn’t lower premiums, it doesn’t lower the deficit, it raises taxes and there are little gems buried in the bill that have no business being in a HC bill. Add for good measure more and more Dems admit they haven’t read the bill. Maybe the taxpayers can sue to get their money back for failure to do teir job.

  • tillkan

    Note how the rightwing calls the health care bill socialist even though it is nothing but a piece of Heritage Foundation/Republican crap.

  • groenhagen2

    “Even if (2) and (3) had occurred, but the bailout hadn’t, the Democrats probably would have been OK.”

    Only someone completely out of touch with reality would write the above. Most Americans opposed a government takeover of health care. That was also the case during the Clinton admin, when we didn’t have 1, 2, and 3.

  • uniquelychristianthinker

    If there is damage to the Democratic party, it was caused not by the Health Care Bill per se, but rather by the appearance that elected officials were not listening to or heeding the opinions of their constituency. HCR-related damage is really just a symptom of a larger problem within the party. While Democrats were once seen as the party-of-the-people, they are now often perceived as overly-educated, sheltered, pompous and idealistic to a harmful extreme. In some ways, the Republican party has a done a better job of positioning themselves as the party of the people by at least giving the appearance of caring about the opinions, concerns and desires of their constituencies.

  • http://milascurtains.wordpress.com milascurtains

    I am a little bit lost – what You are so admiring in GOP’s?
    Doing nothing?
    When You will do the same – You will be fired.

    So, what were You admired?

  • m0mentom0ri

    “There was a saying in my line of work, Sewer Sanitation”
    .
    So, you’re a government employee, or work for a private company paid for with government money, and you hate Socialism. Got it.
    .
    So, what are you going to do for living after they get rid of all this ‘Socialism’ and you can no longer suck at the government teat like some sort of hippy with your paid-for-by-the-government job?

  • gum0nshoe

    Sewer sanitation is a public works job. That means its paid for by collecting taxes (or borrowing and increasing a debt). You are an example of the “redistribution of wealth” and “socialism” that you appear to hate.
    .
    This is pretty much what the others above said, but said clearer. Jobs provided to anyone by the government are socialist institutions. Government itself is socialism on some level. Socialism is not evil in all forms of its existence.

  • nflfoghorn

    What lying, cheating, stealing, and conniving? If anything was done illegally in Congress, prove it. Oh right, you can’t.
    .
    .
    NEWS ITEM: Florida Supreme Court shoots down, inter alia*, Amendment 9:
    http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/elections/florida-supreme-court-keeps-three-amendments-from-ballot/1118760
    .
    *makes me sound all Buckley :)

  • allthingsinaname

    While there is a certain reality to the Party, it seems to me we are pushing parties over policy.
    .
    Perhaps if we talked issues more than party, more would be accomplished.

  • freeinpa

    Agreed, it’s a piece of crap. Let’s repeal it!

  • edismeiamhe

    Foggy,

    Ok, if you can’t come up with your own list, I’ll help out with examples:

    LYING:

    Obama said that Obama Care would not raise taxes.

    CHEATING:

    Harry and Nancy holding closed doow sessions to craft legislation with no observation or input from the Republicans.

    STEALING:

    Taking Billions of dollars out of Medicare which will force patients to increase their payments…in effect stealing their wealth in order to…you know…pass it around.

    By the way Foggy, how about a C note from your bank account for mine? As you know, redistribution of wealth is good for the psyche…the Big “0″ thinks.

  • tyrantking

    I voted Democrat last time around and I have to say that the Dems proved that they cannot govern and their ranks need to be thinned out. Had they had even an ounce of competence they would have drafted a bullet proof single payer bill and closed ranks. They had a 60 vote filibuster proof majority. They let the Repubs write the narrative and they’ll pay in November. The Dems are carrying a lot of dead weight. It is clear that many Dem Senators are more beholden to their corporate contributors than to their constituents or their country. Time to cut them loose.

  • sacredh

    Even though there’s obviously no point at all in voting In November, I think I’ll do it anyway. So the votes have all been counted before anyone has even cast one? We will probably lose the house but I still think we’ll keep the senate. There’s a silver lining at least for me if we do lose both the house in senate. If both flip I have to leave for month because of a bet. I’ll miss the gloating.

  • nflfoghorn

    Three strikes and no $100 for you.

  • gum0nshoe

    I’m not sure you could legitimately call it a debate. There weren’t two sides talking about healthcare, anyways. That makes it hard to debate.

    It also seemed to me that the question was phrased about “Republicans (or Democrats) in Congress when Congress has had a historically low approval rating. Republicans likely have positive numbers for having done, literally, nothing on the legislative front while saying everything that was done some how threatens the foundations of the country.

    Was it Andrew Jackson that spent 4 years undermining an opponent he lost too so that he could beat him in the next election. If you’ve got years to campaign, you can lie & practice receipt while the people in office doing things take the fall for any incident be it their own cause or not.

    So, no I don’t think the Healthcare debate hurt the Dems. I think the Republican stonewall and mudslinging hurt the Dems and I think enough Americans are party blind or oblivious to fall for it.

  • Paul-no not that one

    That “Reply to this comment” thingy is so tricky!

  • nflfoghorn

    …to be replaced by Repubs who do the same thing and then some? The hamster cage continues to spin.

  • Paul-no not that one

    Because the gloating would be over in a month?
    .
    I love your optimistic personality.

  • m0mentom0ri

    “This is pretty much what the others above said, but said clearer.”
    .
    And well said, Gummy.

  • gum0nshoe

    LYING:
    Obama said that Obama Care would not raise taxes.

    One, you should show where taxes were raised.
    .
    Two, I clearly recall him saying he would not raise taxes for anyone making less than 200,000 or 250,000 (not sure which). He clearly said he meant to raise taxes on the wealthy. If you take a historical look at tax rates for the wealthy, they are currently extremely low. In the fast they have been as high as 80% – 90%. Now they are somewhere in the 30% with lots of loopholes.

    CHEATING:
    Harry and Nancy holding closed doow sessions to craft legislation with no observation or input from the Republicans.

    The healthcare that was passed is actually very similar to Romney’s (A former Republican Governer) health care solution. What’s more, Republicans were included in the healthcare sessions. They weren’t excluded until they began to stonewall. When they became obstructionists, they blocked themselves out and choose to stop working for their constituents interests.

    STEALING:
    Taking Billions of dollars out of Medicare which will force patients to increase their payments…in effect stealing their wealth in order to…you know…pass it around.

    Medicare isn’t the recipients wealth. It’s already being redistributed by the Medicare program which gains the money from taxes or deficit spending. What’s more, the money that was reallocated was taken away from a very inefficient program that provided redundant services. Doing this ultimately doesn’t remove necessary care and makes the system more efficient.

  • sacredh

    What was I thinking? I should say I’ll miss the initial wave. If I do lose, I think I won’t even read the swamp for a month. I’ll give my concession speech (if McCain lets me) and just troll the rightwing websites as newfurrydog for awhile.

  • http://djtrudeau.wordpress.com djtrudeau

    Here’s the deal: the country is in rough shape and the Democrats are the party in power. The GOP can talk all day about what’s being done wrong without any solutions because they’re being used to vent anger and fear. This is very useful in winning elections. The Democrats have also done themselves no favors not because their legislation is killing off America but because they jump everytime someone says boo. You can’t put trust in a party that doesn’t show backbone.

    The Dems got elected under Bush for the same reason. I’d argue the anger was more legitimate that time but it’s not like the Democrats one because they had the big ideas. They did, however, get a President elected for that reason.

    So here we have a party in power that apologizes for itself while doing the things they’re supposed to believe in instead of showing a vision going forward and illustrating how what they’re doing fits that vision. It’s a perfect recipe for allowing fear-mongering windbags to take everything away.

    Just watch the public turn on the GOP when they actually get the job and have little to offer. It may be the best present Obama ever received.

  • http://djtrudeau.wordpress.com djtrudeau

    “it’s not like the Democrats one”
    How about won instead of one?

  • sacredh

    “Just watch the public turn on the GOP when they actually get the job and have little to offer. It may be the best present Obama ever received.”
    .
    I’ve been saying that for awhile. They’ll get in, try to make everything like it was under Bush and then wonder why Obama gets re-elected.

  • sacredh

    A second scenario is that they’ll get voted in in 2010, voted out in 2012 and come to the conclusion that they lost because they didn’t go far enough to the right. I can’t wait to see the costumes they come up with for whatever replaces the Tea Party. The Tea Party will be judged to have been too liberal and a second round of party purification will take place.

  • GivenUp

    I suspect that that may be slightly too good to be true, but it is certainly a heartwarming image.

  • freeinpa

    “LYING:
    “Obama said that Obama Care would not raise taxes.”
    =

    For folks who keep screaming “LIAR” at everybody they disagree with, the left sure lies a lot especially to themselves.
    =
    If you don’t have HC you pay tax/penalty (please give us your best obfuscation) of 2.5% of income or $695. I guess that won’t hit many people making $200,000. More like 20-30 yr olds making $30,000.
    =
    Small businesses with revenues less than $250,000 and don’t provide HC pay $750 tax per employee.
    =
    No pre-tax $ in an HSA, FSA or HRA can be used for OTC drugs. Guess who has these?
    =
    2011 cap of $2,500 in FSA, no current cap
    =
    Tanning tax (although Snooki probably makes more than she used to
    =
    Itemized tax returns move the medical expense deductions form 7.5%- 10%.
    =
    And in a temporary payoff to unions the Cadillac tax does not take affect until 2018 and includes a 40% tax above a certain limit.

    ===
    For all the left’s piety and condemnation of Fox, Palin, Limbaugh et al — you are no bettert

  • tyrantking

    For sure. The problem is Obama promised change and his party effed him over. I’ll still vote Dem this year, but only because I hate my Repub Reps. They’ll win anyway.

  • http://djtrudeau.wordpress.com djtrudeau

    I don’t know if the GOP can ever right their ship until a new generation comes in not based around fear of “the other.” Then maybe they can become the “party of business” again, as opposed to the king of the culture wars.

    It may take another generation for Democrats who aren’t still spooked by the Republican takeover of 1996. It seems like congressional Democrats have never quite gotten over that. Newt (before he was drummed out for ethical violations) is the architect of the current conservative brand. I would’ve thought the failure of the Bush years would be the event to end it but instead they’ve responded by going further over the top than ever.

    Though it may be worse now, the media has always followed the story they thought had the most pull. They’ve gotten even lazier because we’ve allowed them to. If the Democrats want to end this, they have to concentrate on changing the way the entire debate is framed (like Newt and company did). I don’t seem them having the guts to do it. When they get slapped around in November, they can either take it as a lesson to change it up or cower further into the hole.

  • groenhagen2

    You seem to have little confidence Gallup. If the GOP regains ontrol of the House and gains at least 7 seats in the Senate, will you pledge to never post here again?

  • apr2563

    The traditional media did a terrific job of focusing on the recess public forums and looping videos of “know nothing”, ginned up protests.
    .
    My nephew just called me this morning from Guernsey in the Channel Islands. He is a pilot for a private organization. He was recently in a motorcycle accident in Northern France and spent some time in a French hospital. He was overwhelmed by their kindness and that between the French system and his health insurance he had no financial worries. Now that he is home he has 13 weeks of paid sick leave.
    .
    The Dems pols, who controlled the debate, did little to explain what single payer would mean for them. Of course, many were too busy sell out to the insurance and pharmacy companies.

  • stuartzechman

    That’s a pretty reasonable point.

  • freeinpa

    Here is something to cheer you up when Dems lose both .

    “Heavy Drinkers Outlive Nondrinkers, Study Finds”

  • freeinpa

    The lesson is MOVE

  • gum0nshoe

    “Liar” was something I was quoting from edismeiamhe. I used the <blockquote> tag to show that they weren’t my words.

    See, highlighted in blue, used for quoting people

    I think you’ll find it useful, so you can stop using the ‘=’ sign.
    .
    Warning the following should look familiar:

    If you don’t have HC you pay tax/penalty (please give us your best obfuscation) of 2.5% of income or $695. I guess that won’t hit many people making $200,000. More like 20-30 yr olds making $30,000.

    .
    You have to pay a penalty. It isn’t a tax because its not designed to collect from everyone but force people to get insurance. If people do this, theoretically prices should go down. You’d need to understand the legislation to understand how that’s supposed to work, as well as understanding risk pools.
    .
    It is true that without a public option, this is a much riskier strategy for improving the cost of healthcare as participants have no where to go but a insurance firm. So, there is legitimate criticism to be made about this. It has little to do with taxes.

    Small businesses with revenues less than $250,000 and don’t provide HC pay $750 tax per employee.

    I think it gets more specific than that, but ideally they’d provide healthcare and build the cost of caring for their employees into their costs.

    No pre-tax $ in an HSA, FSA or HRA can be used for OTC drugs. Guess who has these?

    Most insurance plans don’t cover over the counter drugs. So I’m confused at this point. You generally have to pay taxes on things you buy. Its called sales tax and it isn’t new. That sales tax will be dependent on the state you’re in, not the federal government. As far as income tax, that’s not new, but then you couldn’t buy OTC drugs with insurance anyway.

    2011 cap of $2,500 in FSA, no current cap

    This looks like something used to stop tax dodgers. it doesn’t really implement a new tax.

    Tanning tax (although Snooki probably makes more than she used to

    Tanning is optional and has been linked to cancer. Taxing the practice should help offset the costs of tanning incurred when tanners get cancer.

    Itemized tax returns move the medical expense deductions form 7.5%- 10%.

    I’ll admit I don’t know what this means. I’m relatively young and haven’t had to worry about taxes all that long. Does this mean that people can deduct from taxes more money? That’s how it reads to me.

    And in a temporary payoff to unions the Cadillac tax does not take affect until 2018 and includes a 40% tax above a certain limit.

    I’m not sure what the point of this is. The tax is again optional since you should be able to decide what kind of healthcare you buy. But, I’m pretty sure this was a sticking point most people didn’t like. I’m almost willing to just say legislating these plans was probably a bad move.

  • shepherdwong

    While Democrats were once seen as the party-of-the-people, they are now often perceived as…
    .
    You left off pusillanimous, when faced with Republicans, industry, the press and just about anyone else.

  • shepherdwong

    “Heavy Drinkers Outlive Nondrinkers, Study Finds”
    .
    That’s supposed to be good news?!

  • grape_crush

    If the GOP regains ontrol of the House and gains at least 7 seats in the Senate, will you pledge to never post here again?
    .
    How ’bout you stop with the pissant blog games instead?
    .
    Cheers!

  • gum0nshoe

    I’m embarrassed by the typos above, so here’s a fixed version:

    I’m not sure you could legitimately call it a debate. There weren’t two sides talking about healthcare, anyways. That makes it hard to debate.

    It also seemed to me that the question was phrased about “Republicans (or Democrats) in Congress,” when Congress has had a historically low approval rating. Republicans likely have positive numbers for having done, literally, nothing on the legislative front while saying everything that was done some how threatens the foundations of the country.

    Was it Andrew Jackson that spent 4 years undermining an opponent he lost to, so that he could beat him in the next election? If you’ve years to campaign, you can lie & practice deceit, while the people in office doing things take the fall for any incident, be it by their own cause or not.

    So, no I don’t think the Healthcare debate hurt the Dems. I think the Republican stonewall and mudslinging hurt the Dems; I think enough Americans are blinded by party or oblivious to the workings of political organizations, that they easily fell for it.

  • husein11

    What a surprise. I liberal America hater raving about the French and denigrating the United States. That’s a first. Have you and your family ever considered leaving the United States? You would be much happier elsewhere.
    My question is who is “their”? nurses? doctors? Sarkozy?

  • pelhamite1

    With all due respect, Uniquely Christian Thinker, that is rubbish. Most everything the Democrats have done in this legislative seesion has been done with the working class in mind. They pushed through a Stimulus plan in order to give jobs to folks who had lost their jobs through no fault of their own. They got the auto companies back on their feet so that thousands of workers could keep their jobs. Several times over the last year, they have had to stare down the Republicans in order to provide much needed extensions to workers compensation and unemployment to keep thousands of working families from falling into the lowest levels of poverty. Most importantly, they took action against a health insurance structure that left millions of Americans incredibly vulnerable to disaster, and was causing our country to broke to boot. In each of these cases they were, by my lights, carrying forth the spirit of the Sermon on the Mount, and Christ’s teachings generally, to a much greater extent than the Republicans, who seem to care not a whit about the less fortunate.

    Is that “pompous”?? Is that “sheltered”?? Is demanding that our poorer citizens have the same rights as, say, their Canadian counterparts “overly ideological”?? Most specifically, what, exactly do you mean by “over educated”? What Democratic Senator or Representative do you accuse of having too many graduate degrees (I am going to assume, for now, that you consider graduation from college to be acceptable?)? Why is an uneducated approach better than an educated one?? Contrary to the Republican propoganda machine, the difference between the two parties is not that one is smart and the other not so (the last two Republican Presidents, after all, went to Yale) but that one party has at least a small measure of empathy and, dare I say it, wisdom, and the other party sneers at the very notion.

  • stuartzechman

    No, the lesson is that we’re –you too– getting ripped off.
    .
    They pay less, and get more.
    .
    We pay more, and get less.
    .
    It’s that simple.
    .
    I love America, and yet I’m perfectly capable of pointing out that I’m not getting a good deal in a system that isn’t working for people.
    .
    We don’t need the patriotism cops to show up bleating their red-white-n-blue whistles and waving flags with all of their might whenever somebody notices we’re getting mediocre performance for our money.
    .
    When you see a pothole in the road, or your local telephone monopoly seems to have overcharged you for the umpteenth time, the normal response isn’t to decide to either start singing the national anthem or packing for France, it’s to fix the f*cking problem.
    .
    It’s really un-American to yell “if you don’t like it, move!” at fellow citizens in a democracy.
    .
    If we don’t like it, we should change it, like the Founders intended.
    .
    What true American disagrees with that?

  • grape_crush

    With all due respect, Uniquely Christian Thinker, that is rubbish. Most everything the Democrats have done in this legislative seesion has been done with the working class in mind.
    .
    Not quite, but close enough.
    .
    If I can gently point out UCT’s use of the words “appearance” and “perceived”…and, yes, the fearmongers of the right-wing have controlled perception of Dem legislation better than Dems have.
    .
    They out-shouted ‘death panels’ over our ‘no disqualification for pre-existing conditions’…and the media, thinking that there was fire under the smokescreen, neglected to mention that all they found was hot air.
    .
    It’s insane how people will let their bias and fear overrule their common sense and vote against their own interests.

  • husein11

    Stu, first off she was writing about a French hospital and “their kindness.” I was wondering who the “their” is. If it needs to be changed then she should write who specifically was kind in comparison to the same people in the United States.
    Secondly, I didn’t yell for her to move. I was thinking of her best interests as she would be much happier living elsewhere. Now what true American disagrees with looking out for the happiness of fellow Americans?

  • shepherdwong

    What true American disagrees with that?
    .
    By definition, no one. But freeper’s loyalty belongs only to his right-wing tribe. And in freeper’s tribe, everyone else is “un-American.” Ironic, no?

  • http://erieangel.wordpress.com erieangel

    what gov’t. take over. I get my health insurance through Blue Cross/Blue Shield and will continue to do so even after HCR goes into affect. Are you saying BC/BS will be owned by the gov’t.?
    .
    This “gov’t. take over” crap is just that–crap. And an out and out lie just like “death panels”, “it’ll cost too much” ect. ect. What we ended up with is basically the republican plan that Clinton had rejected in the ’90s. So if its a horrible plan today, it was a horrible plan when the republicans tried to push it onto us back then.

  • freeinpa

    You have to pay a penalty. It isn’t a tax because its not designed to collect from everyone but force people to get insurance

    Seriously, this is a word game. If you you have to pay for something you don’t want its either extortion or a tax. Let’s not get cute with this.

    I think it gets more specific than that, but ideally they’d provide healthcare and build the cost of caring for their employees into their costs.

    So its a tax regardless of the ancillary stuff

    Most insurance plans don’t cover over the counter drugs.

    These are health savings plans in which you put pre-tax dollars in and use for a variety of medical expenses including OTC drugs. Many Drs. instead of prescription drugs will recommend OTC drugs like cough medicine or Mucinex. Now you can’t so in affect another tax. Spin anyway you like its an added cost– a tax.

    Tanning is optional and has been linked to cancer

    This could be your dumbest and weakest response. I didn’t when he said no taxes unless its something that optional. Linked to cancer. Should we tax things that cause disease? Maybe. How far do you want to go? Cigarettes, cigars, alcohol, Sunlight, outdoor jobs, drug use, homosexual trysts? The list could go on and the government nanny gets to pick and chose. That will be a great system.

    I’m not sure what the point of this is. The tax is again optional since you should be able to decide what kind of healthcare you buy

    It is not optional. If your employer has given you a good plan and you and the employer spit the cost you either pay a tax or drop your coverage. Its a tax.

    The left can spin the crap all you like but most folks see their costs going up, health care coverage going down and one lying President

  • freeinpa

    My blockquote needs work

  • earljr1

    From a health care professional’s perspective, I can tell you, unequivocally, the democrats have been seriously hurt by passing this disjointed, nonsensical bill! Virtually every patient we see, especially the seniors, are furious about its passage and with good reason. Not only are the patients angry, but physicians as well. We are fully cognizant of what this monstrosity can do to our existing infrastructure and I can assure you, most Americans are, as well. The democrats “victory” dance, will haunt them at the polls and well it should. This is outright fraud masquerading as benevolence, when the only beneficiary will be the insurance companies.

  • kbanginmotown

    Affirmative,
    freep.
    You
    sound
    like
    a
    robot
    when
    there
    is
    only
    one
    word
    per
    sentence.
    Don’t
    forget
    the
    ending
    slash-
    blockquote.
    Also,
    how
    did
    you
    keep
    getting
    the
    multiple
    indents?
    Over.

  • kbanginmotown

    I’ll take grape’s spin on UCT’s comment, with the operative words being “appearance” and “perceived”.
    .
    The Dems have done a respectable job, per pelhamite, but fail at selling / marketing their achievements.
    .
    And now, it’s not a matter of “if” HCR is damaging, but “how” damaging it is…
    .
    It’s a BFD, dammit!

  • gum0nshoe

    Blockquoting a

    blockquote

    indents multiple times.
    .
    To end a blockquote use:

    </blockquote>

  • maverick2k9

    Groan, If Republicans dont gain control of the senate, will you promise never to wear shorts again (Like those you wear on your facebook pic) ?
    -
    PS: Shorts make you look a lot worse than effeminate.

  • maverick2k9

    From a health care professional’s perspective………………
    …………………………………………………………………………….. …………….only beneficiary will be the insurance companies

    -
    Dr Earl, Notice how you used a lot of words, but didn’t even bother to refute what apr and stuart had to say about the care YOU, as an American health professional, provide.. i.e. YOU provide less bang for the buck when comparted to your French counterpart.

  • formerlyjames

    Of course the Dems will pay for trying to deliver universal health care. Every American is entitled to a right wing capitalistic death with no expectation of help from government or society. We need to take baby steps. Socialized burial would be cheaper and might go over with the right wing. Especially if we fund flying the Flag and subsidizing prayer by a holy man. The Dems need to abandon health care and look to death care to convert the vast ignorant right wing in our country. Then again, who knows what untruths they will grasp next. Death care might be fertile ground for more fantasies.

  • russpoter1

    Why .. of course .. 160,000,000 Americans are wrong, and you and OWEbama are right.

    Not. And Nov. 2, that INCOMPETENT FOOL is getting his comeuppenence.

    Medicare took eight years. You push people — they push back, hard.

    Thanks for proving that stupid (and pseudo-intellectualism) cannot be fixed.

  • russpoter1

    Of course .. 160,000,000 Americans are wrong, and you and OWEbama are right. Please wait while we bow down to you, Mr. God.

    Not. And Nov. 2, that INCOMPETENT FOOL is getting his comeuppenence.

    Medicare took eight years — OWEbama is above that, he thought. Well, you push people — they push back, and hard.

    Thanks for proving that stupid (and pseudo-intellectualism) cannot be fixed.

  • russpoter1

    Oh, yeah, E — Big Government, Big Business, Big Unions are no serious deal. If you like living in a MEDIOCRE world.

    Nov. 2, hurry up. As soon as the OweBama dupes are dumped, the job market will recover.

  • russpoter1

    LYING: Obama said that Obama Care would not raise taxes. YES — any taxes is a macro-economic drag on performance. And liberals — look up the words. It will help.

  • earljr1

    I will rate our health care as being second to NONE anywhere in the world! This is not a biased opinion and I base my statement on testimonials from visiting Doctor’s from countries all over the world. Our University plays host to them through frequently held conferences, well attended and they are in awe at what we can accomplish here. You frequently hear “we can only dream of having this ability”. As far as bang for the buck, look once again at your insurance companies for driving up the cost. THIS is the industry (along with pharmaceuticals) that should have been regulated. Ask the average American about their feelings toward quality of health care received and the doctor’s treating them and you will find we receive extremely high marks. Ask them also, while you are at it, about trust and you will find that we are the most respected and trusted professionals in the workplace…compare us to politicians and we win virtually 99% of the time and it was politicians(democrats) who are on the verge of destroying something they both trust AND like.

  • earljr1

    How sanctimonious can you get, formerlyjames? This is a liberal mish mash of a serious problem and another reason why democrats are in such big trouble.

  • Ike Jakson

    Nobody should need to worry about these polls.

    The President will have his teleprompter fixed and make a speech; to follow it up with landslide victories in mid-term and 2012.

  • Paul-no not that one

    And when Earl calls you sanctimonious that has to hurt.
    .
    He’s a doctor.
    .
    Just like Rusty.

  • mycophile

    I did not read apr and stu as saying that our doctors are ripping us off and/or providing insufficient health care
    .
    I read her as pointing out the systemic egregions and weaknesses of our health care system.
    .
    I believe earl claims to be a doctor, not a medical insurer

  • mycophile

    whoops, something odd with my browser refresh — didn’t see earl’s response made prior to mine.
    .
    Looks like earl didn’t get distracted by the personal slight. Thanks earl!
    .
    earl defends our health care system. It is a defense I have heard many doctors make. I do not have enough personal experience to know the truth, but I do have several long-time and close friends who are doctors, my grandfather made house calls until he died of his third heart attack, and one of my doc buddies if in the top 100 of ER docs in the nation, as well as a hospital administrator.
    .
    Through them, I have gotten the clear message of the inadequacies of our medical system. And most of those inadequacies are described in terms that sure sound to me are resultant of the selfish greed and power aspects that our brand of Capitalism seems to produce, if not exalt.
    .
    Of interesting note to me is that, as the depth of immersion, skill, and acclaim in the field of medicine increases in the above group of my friends and relatives, so does the observation that there are models of medicine elsewhere that do better at what we do not do well.
    .
    Don’t know what that all adds up to, but it’s probably worth thinking about.

  • uniquelychristianthinker

    @pelhamite1 – Sorry to have stirred such negative passions within you (though I am happy to see the passion). I will accept the defense that was offered me by grape_crush. Namely that I am speaking of Appearance and Perception, not reality (though this IS America , where perception becomes reality)
    .
    I don’t think I need to reiterate the ways in which the Stimulus, The Auto-bailout, HCR etcwere not perceived by average Americans as “helpful”.. this perception has been covered in depth for months upon months.

    Perhaps there could be some reclamation if any of these pieces of legislation were to be explained succinctly, clearly and with the emphasis on the benefit to the people. In the meantime, Personalities like Ms Palin, Mr Beck, Mr Huckabee. Ms Bachmann et al appear (again, APPEAR) to have cornered the market on the ability to relate to and care about the average American.

  • maverick2k9

    mycophile, I do understand that Earl claims to be a doctor, not a medical insurer
    -
    But, all he keeps saying is that he/his colleagues/his patients are all angry that Obama passed HCR – which makes a honest attempt at regulating Health insurance companies, NOT doctors, NOT nurses, NOT hospitals. Just health insurance companies
    -
    He also does not explain WHY they are angry – very low on specifics of the bill that does not concern him, but yet still makes him very angry.
    -
    In the end, all I can glean from his post is unexplained anger.

  • maverick2k9

    Yay!! Blogwhore Ike is blogwhore no more.
    -
    This calls for celebration – Until Mr Truther Fury comes along.

  • allthingsinaname

    “I will rate our health care as being second to NONE anywhere in the world”

    .
    For those who can afford it Earl, maybe.
    .
    But then again we are 33 in infant mortality, Cuba is 28th. Maybe we should blockade them and make them 34th?
    .
    Mighty fine job we are doing, keep it up earl and we will continue to decline.

  • allthingsinaname

    Ps earl I keep hearing about how we are #1 but, I can’t find anything that supports that. Perhaps you could give a link with some comparative stats to support that.
    .
    Are we #1 in breast augmentation? Tummy Tucks?, liposuction? Have to be # 1 in face lifts.

  • mycophile

    I agree that earl was a little short here on details of why his patients are angry.
    .
    I agree that is does appear that there is a lot of unexplained anger.
    .
    However, Earl did provide a reference to what the anger was about

    We are fully cognizant of what this monstrosity can do to our existing infrastructure and I can assure you, most Americans are, as well.

    I think earl elaborated on this in earlier comments on HCR, but I forget how specifically he did so.
    .
    I do not share earl’s doomsday feelings in this regard, nor do any of my physician friends, but perhaps the impacts will vary according to varying case-specific differences. Perhaps earl and his patients are plagued by having case-specific pictures that make them more at risk in that way. I can’t know.
    .
    I seem to recall, though, that earl also earlier reported that doctors and patients were angry about having choices of treatments for patients made for them via cost/benefit analyses done by government agents.
    .
    Of course, the way I understand it, none of those choices will be removed. Only the choice of who would have to pay for them will be (and perhaps how much they would pay?). And, it has been pointed out that such refusals to pay for medical services are already going on, except that, heretofore, It has been the private medical insurers themselves who have been making the choices. Therefore, the switch would be from those limits on pay for services being decided with motivations of private business to maximize their individual profits, or with the motivations of public servants to minimize public deficits.
    .
    But if earl still does not see it that way, that’s OK. Even if he does see it that way, though, I have an idea that he might still feel that the benefits of that will be outweighed by one particular detriment.
    .
    One that concerns me
    .
    Because, although I agree that

    HCR . . . makes a honest attempt at regulating Health insurance companies, NOT doctors, NOT nurses, NOT hospitals. Just health insurance companies

    I feel that it fell so short of doing that well, the aura surrounds it of

    fraud masquerading as benevolence . . . (to the people, when it will at least also immorally further benefit) the insurance companies (from both the pockets of individuals and small businesses, but even more so from the public trough).

    It is my wish that the types of improvements to the HCR legislation that can appropriately further tighten the reins on health insurance providers get made sooner than later.

  • sacredh

    I am also a sturgeon and all of my patents are furious.

  • apr2563

    Gee, I feel so marginalized when I am talked about as though I wasn’t here.
    .
    Telling someone to “love it or leave it” because they disagree with policy or appreciate another countries approach is so McCarthy 50s.
    .
    Stuart, thank you for pointing out that it is foolish to turn away from other perspectives.
    .
    Also, some need to stop being so sensitive. When pointing out that my nephew received kind treatment was not saying he would have not received kind treatment in Guernsey or his home state of Washington. Aren’t we allowed to recognize kindness now. Is the USA the only country that displays kindness.
    .
    You know, I might be happier if I was very wealthy and lived in a villa with George Clooney in the south of France. What has that to do with my love of my country?
    .
    My view, is the reactionary right spends a great deal of their time complaining about the state of the USA. I would never suggest they might be happier in a theocracy/dictatorship like Saudi Arabia.

  • apr2563

    see 21.6

  • apr2563

    Response misposted. Should be included in 22 thread.

  • lcky9

    Well lets see I have a lot of loyal Democratic friends.. ages range from 25 to 68 they all work and are having a really hard time first of all to being MANDATED to BUY something… HUMM.. they have talked to their doctors who are well rehearsed on what is coming (and guess what NOT ALL doctors are Republicans).. they noticed while they are getting a mandate Big Pharm is increasing their prices so guess Obamacare FORGOT to make sure they got medicine UNDER control.. (but than they would lose campaign contributions.) and tests by FOR PROFIT hospitals have gone up..but their DOCTORS are still charging the same price.. these friends are going to vote REPUBLICAN ALL THE WAY in NOVEMBER..and if not repealed they will pay the fine rather than buy insurance from the GOVERNMENT.. since they DON’T have insurance and make low wages or are retired but not old enough for Medicare.. one would THINK they would go down and apply for MEDICAID.. but they would rather NOT have insurance, since GOVERNMENT insurance would be the same as having none.. My guess is this law will bite the DEMS in the rear REALLY hard and all the spending with high unemployment will make it even worse..

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