The Obama Speech

Didn’t hear Obama read from the teleprompter. Did the anti-military, clueless dumb @ss give a shout-out to any of those U.S. Navy “corpse men”?

Now that Obama has satisfied his liberal base and pulled out of Iraq, what happens if it all falls apart?
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Is it a good idea to pull all the troops out, and they do not have as of yet a stable government formed yet? What happens when the insurgents, reorganize, and begin blowing things up again without our highly skilled and trained military men and women there to defend against it?
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How much does Obama lose in this senario? It is a very real possibility.

There are still 50,000 troops there, plus thousands of contractors. Obama was probably nervous tonight because he had to pretend it is over, when it isn’t. He must also feel a little guilty letting war criminals walk free at the same time he claims to believe in democracy and the rule of law.

“Is it a good idea to pull all the troops out, and they do not have as of yet a stable government formed yet?”
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Wait just a second!
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No stable government formed yet?
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I thought the surge “worked”!
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You must be mistaken, there probably is a free, unified, non-violent, highly stable Iraqi government standing with us in opposition to hegemonic Iran as we speak.
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The surge “worked,” didn’t it?
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Of course it did.

I wonder if Obama’s discomfort comes from constant dealing with his predecessor’s problems (like Iraq, recession) and “solutions” (like TARP). It’s always a b1tch to clean up someone else’s mess.
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BTW, Joe, have you bought a motorcycle for your upcoming road trip? Is your itinerary set thanks to commentariat emails or are you still looking?

Obama had to shine yet another one of the turds that Dubya left behind, and he did it with considerable graciousness and restraint, even praising Bush as a patriot who cared about our nation’s security when his utter recklessness in office suggests otherwise.
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It was a class act and an effort to heal the country, but I’m sure the Fox News propaganda machine has already found a way to twist the president’s praise of our active-duty soldiers and veterans into some new kind of lie.
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And sadly, textee, Rusty and the rest will be there, ready to lap it up no matter how ludicrous the lie, just like the good little pets they are.

I imagine his discomfort stemmed from the loss of lives. He didn’t start to look uncomfortable until he started talking about their sacrifice. And since made it known he didn’t believe in starting the war, knowing his government and ultimately he had responsibility for many lives lost is likely a huge burden.

I agree that it was an uncomfortable speech, possibly the worst he has given, understandably. Notes of class, the nod to Bush 2, who has been a better ex-President than President. But all in all, a speech better not given.

Oh I disagree. America may have its intellectually brain dead components. Obama may have been uncomfortable. But the speech was well crafted and important.
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While I will agree the substance of new policy was not there, I do not believe that speech was the time or place for such policy to be elaborated on.
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It was respectful of the troops and even what could be respected of former President George W. Bush. The beginning of the end of an 8 year conflict deserves a speech. The war was uncomfortable, the speech had every right to be as well.

At every turn, America’s men and women in uniform have served with courage and resolve. As Commander-in-Chief, I am proud of their service. Like all Americans, I am awed by their sacrifice, and by the sacrifices of their families.
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What more would you ask, Textee?

It was the speech by a man in trouble; talking from all sides of the mouth these past two years plus, the truth finally hit home. He just simply doesn’t fit the chair.

The man cannot give direction to the Nation because he has no direction of his own. He has been revealed for the opportunist Imposter that he has always been.

Rachel Maddow focused her post-speech analysis on Obama’s “kind words” about George W. Bush. You can watch that video here:
http://bit.ly/aP05sd

Rusty,
Not all the troops are out. 50,000 will remain there carrying out the very same regressive orders, only not labeled ‘combat operations.’ The casualties will still mount, maybe even at a higher than normal rate given the lack of personnel available to continue the job being required. So, this war goes on. You should be happy and pat the President on the back for once.

President Obama says in his “Operation Iraqi Freedom is Over” speech “Throughout our history, America has been willing to bear the burden of promoting liberty and human dignity overseas, understanding its link to our own liberty and security.”

How does our president square this comment with the fact that he continues to feed millions of U.S. tax dollars to the Karzai boys, Afghanistan President Hamid Karzai and his half-brother Ahmed Wali Karzai who in turn funnel our tax dollars into their bank accounts held in Dubai?

President Obama’s foreign policy continues to prop up Afghanistan President Karzai who rules with an iron fist one of the most corrupt governments in the world.

President Karzai sells top government positions to the highest bidder, he holds a monopoly on U.S. military contracts in his country and the average Afghan must pay bribes if he or she needs any government services.

President Obama’s promotion of liberty in Afghanistan does not promote human dignity. Instead, it only oppresses more Afghanis, mocks America’s values and makes the Taliban look like the good guys to the Middle East.

Operation Afghani freedom will occur when President Obama pulls our troops and tax dollars out of Afghanistan.

What happens when the insurgents, reorganize, and begin blowing things up again without our highly skilled and trained military men and women there to defend against it?
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We also don’t have to borrow money from the Chinese and increase the deficit (which apparently is a huge concern of right wing) to pay for the presence of “highly skilled and trained military men and women” in Iraq.
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Those same highly skilled and trained military men and women don’t get killed or maimed trying to defend against those attacks (which unfortunately does not seem to be a huge concern for the right wing).
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As for what happens for the Iraqis, well, that’s up to them.

Umm… the pullout schedule was negotiated by and agreed to by the Bush administration.

It occurred to me as I listened to the Afghanistan part of the speech that perhaps Obama should consider Kennedy’s solution with president Diem.

Another show of class: no (mention of) Dick.

Once the effects of the crack pipe have worn off, reality will still be here.

“Yet no one could doubt President Bush’s support for our troops, or his love of country and commitment to our security.”
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Yes we can.

How naieve.
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In politics, there will always be a certain level of hypocrisy because if you aren’t willing to compromise (including either ignore the existence of or take the blame for hypocrisy that you may not have caused yourself nor be in a situation to fix) then you won’t get anything done.
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This is true regardless of the politician and what wing he’s from.
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You’ve made some extremely bold claims with no proof, but you were born yesterday if you suspect his hands aren’t tied in that situation for a variety of reasons, assuming even half of that is true.

OT, but I had a great day at work today. I had the honor and privilege of locking through the LST-325. The LST-325 is a WWII ship that was involved in the D-Day landing at Normandy on June 6th 1945, Omaha Beach and Solerno. It’s on a tour to let Americans see an important piece of our history up close. I got to handle it’s lock lines, put my hands on a part of our heritage and talk with the crew.
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A picture is worth a 1000 words, but I can’t even imagine how many words it would take to do justice to the history that that ship has been a part of. I took dozens of photos from every angle. The ship still has it’s guns in place and original vehicles on the deck. Our parking lot was filled to capacity, cars lined the highway and people were packed on the riverbank to watch it go through. Everyone cheered when they started playing military music over their loudspeakers.
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A crew member gave me and the guy I’m working with a commemorative ball cap and a commemorative wooden coin. Each has a picture of the ship on them. I work with a retired 20 year Navy man and I put my cap in his locker with a thank you note for his service. He works daylight tomorrow so I think he’ll have a nice surpise. I’m keeping the coin.

Seconded. I don’t know why we keep having to pay lip service to that motherf@cker.

Now that Obama has satisfied his liberal base and pulled out of Iraq, what happens if it all falls apart?
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There will be car bombs, children set on fire, and people tortured to death with power tools?
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Oh, wait.

Again with the speechifying.
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Less talking, more problem solving, Obama.
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Although I guess when he’s got PR geniuses like Rahm, Gibbs and Simpson working for him, he has to occasionally speak for himself.

It is important to note that our troops have and will continue to do their best to serve honorably under near-impossible conditions.
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Unfortunately, our troops and contractors will remain for the foreseeable future– they can’t leave. Not after we have built a functional network of forward bases and a near-billion-dollar embassy in Baghdad. They are not the Iraqi’s, they are our’s- we will operate, maintain and defend them.. and use them.
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The administration, Pentagon and intelligence agencies knew there was no threat to US security, terror or otherwise, emanating from Iraq– by now, we should all understand this– yet we invaded.. why?
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The neocons made their case in Rebuilding America’s Defenses and Sec Def Rumsfeld laid it out clearly in The National Defense Strategy of the United States, he writes:
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To strengthen our capability for prompt global action and our flexibility to employ military forces where needed, we require the capacity to move swiftly into and through strategic pivot points and remote locations. The new global posture-using main operating bases (MOB), forward operating sites (FOS), and a diverse array of more austere cooperative security locations (CSL)- will support such needs. In addition, our prepositioned equipment and stocks overseas will be better configured and positioned for global employment. We will make better use of “reach back” capabilities for those functions that can be accomplished without deploying forward. (link)
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They planned for the Long War. Iraq has great geostrategic importance- in the middle of the Gulf region with easily navigable terrain, it provides an optimal base for U.S. land and air power. Afghanistan provides exterior bases and converging lines of operations.
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I can understand why President Obama will not say that this is why are at war. But I can’t understand why he is not acting to change it. Nor why intelligent writers, like Klein, have not grasped this.

You’re slipping, Ike. You forgot the “man-child” reference…

Thanks for sharing, sacred.
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Your D-Day reference reminded me of this image I found on reddit recently. Kinda puts things in perspective…
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http://i.imgur.com/0B7l8.jpg

Heard, did not see the speech this evening.
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It was not a victory speech, but in many ways, a “Mission Accomplished” speech – without the hoopla and with a few important caveats.
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It was time to turn the page: exhort the Iraqis, honor our brave soldiers who fought and fell, and re-route the $2B/wk that we’ve been spending in Iraq back to the US.

The Dog Ate My Exit Timeline

Joe Klein never criticizes Obama since he get’s his pay check from Ted Turner, another Liberal fool. Now that Iran has nuclear weapons, where do you think it wants to spread it tainted blood? Iraq. And yes, the Liberals did vote for this war too, not just Bush 2.

So, let’s recap on what bHo did
1. Ok’d the 911 mosque
2. OK’d Iran to fuel up its reactor
3. Allowed Iraq to be take over directly or indirectly by Iran
4. Allowed Israel to become a sitting duck
5. Allowed CEO’s to cash in on your hard own dollar.

I’m sure one of you is going to twist these facts around, like the non-American president in office.

Now that Iran has nuclear weapons
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I’m sorry, what?

turkey~ You’re gonna hear from more than one here. The proper challenge for you to have issued would have been for someone to untwist the “facts” as you presented them.
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Cliff asked you to please do that for one of the easy one, yourself.
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I’ll take the next. Ok’d the 911 mosque
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Correction: Pointed out to America that there was an inviolate, and, in his opinion, sacrosanct, Constitutional principle that prevented even the majority from disallowing the “mosk”.

Perhaps NewRusty would like to take a plane to Iraq and help out.
I will really be sick if the reactionaries on this site begin to hope for more mayhem in Iraq just for political motives.
Enough have been injured or killed in the feckless Bush/Cheney war. Iraqis, American soldiers and their allies have paid enough for a bogus war.

No stable government formed yet?

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LOL.. Stuart, I think you caught Rusty with his pants down.
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Having said that, I fully expect Rusty to either tuck tail and run away or give his usual “why dont you eat $hit” response.

All great answer, at least if you are a liberal they are. I guess you all do not know when you have been set up. Just as Joe Klein declined to answer, this was nothing more than appeasement for the leftist in America, the same as Bush II did his “Mission Accomplished” dance.
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This is Obama’s “Mission Accomplished my dear liberal wack-jobs”. He just forgot to say, “now I promised you that I would end the war in Iraq, you should like me again don’t you think?”
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Of course there will be more blood shed. More treasury spent. More lies to twist the truth. Instead of finishing the job once and for all setting up a government which is stable. The Democrats have yet again, CUT AND RUN. But, if that is all you know how to do, what possibly could we expect more?

Joe, Joe, my man…tsk…tsk, writing about the war and all, about the military, about their sacrifice, their service to Country, their dedication to something other than themselves. Must be hard, for you, writing about these subjects –your writing about these issues would tilt more toward fiction , since you know, you seemed to have spent your formative years, your time, avoiding all of the above.

No problem. Nothing to be ashamed of, but perhaps your writings would be a bit more nuanced if you did serve in the military , or been on a freedom ride, encountering a real “Bull Conner” instead of all the racists of your imagination–you know…had done something, anything for real , involving the touchstone issues of your generation. Nuance as you have pointed out is a good thing. Fiction in your craft-not so much.

I guess I’ll take the third most ridiculous one:
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OK’d Iran to fuel up its reactor
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Um, no.
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/25/AR2009092500289.html

I’m going to go way out on a limb here and predict Stuart will not get a straight answer to his question.

I’m going to go way out on a limb here and predict Stuart will not get a straight answer to his question.
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Well, not until Limbaugh and Beck come up with an answer for Rusty, of course.
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When you never think for yourself and simply regurgitate partisan talking points as you’re instructed, there’s always a little lag time. It’s why American communists were never good in debates — they always had to look back to Moscow to learn what the official party line was that day, and what themes they should push.
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Give Rusty a day or two, and I’m sure he’ll have his marching orders from Fox News, a.k.a. the Red Square for Red States.

“Following the departure of U.S. forces next year, responsibility for training Iraqi police to deal with insurgents is to be taken over by the State Department. The task will be carried out by contractors and is certain to result in a rapid increase in the presence of private security organizations. ..the U.S. troop drawdown will not end the involvement of external forces but will simply privatize it — ensuring a large foreign involvement for many years to come.”
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- link

Following C-span’s broadcast of the president’s speech last night, the majority of callers from all 3 parties….including Republicans, were in agreement with what the president had to say. The first 45 minutes of this morning’s Washington Journal again addressed his speech. The majority of Republicans not only agreed with the president’s decision, but an increasing number think this was a war we should never have entered into.

“For a very long period of time we’re going to be on the ground, even if it’s solely in support of its U.S. weapons systems,” said Ryan C. Crocker, who was the American ambassador in Baghdad until 2009 and helped to negotiate the agreement that tethers the two countries and mandates that all American troops leave Iraq by the end of 2011.
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Even as that deadline was negotiated, he said, a longer-lasting, though significantly smaller, presence of American forces had always been considered to be likely.
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- http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/11/world/middleeast/11iraq.html?_r=1
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That smaller presence, as noted above, will be made-up for by private contractors. While Crocker mentions only support for “weapons systems”, one can imagine that our many forward bases will get the same consideration.

“When asked what sort of U.S. military presence he expected in Iraq around 2014 or 2015 — well after Obama’s first term — (2nd in command in Iraq, General Ray) Odierno said, “I would like to see a . . . force probably around 30,000 or so, 35,000,” with many troops training Iraqi forces and others conducting combat operations..” (link)
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This apparent insubordination was never rebuked. One can assume the “Desert Ox” will get his wish..

why is everyone so ‘awed’ by the ‘sacrifice’ of the soldiers? what was this war even about? Americans went in to this ‘war’ under false pretenses and everyone is ‘awed’ by the fact that soldiers did their job which is to kill people…nice.

Shock & Awe

http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2010/04/07/payback/

I’m new to this blog. The intelligent debate by the posters here of the issues is refreshing.

Welcome to swampland. But just wait, we can unimpress just as easily.

I couldn’t fihure out why there were military vehicles on the deck. It wasn’t the kind of ship where the front dropped down. They would have had to use cranes to lift the jeeps off.

Are you for real? How nice…”went in to kill people..did their job”. Have you for a moment in your life done anything for the benefit of others…other than work in a nonprofit -administrating to some self-defined “good”. How bout a scout leader to the Boy Scouts (well they are homophobic)…how about participating in team sports (well they do keep score)…how about participating , even tithing in a church (are you out of your mind, get real) ..have you yourself confronted evil , on any scale, up close and personal like those shoulders. Yea evil. Did you freedom ride, did you, like Tom Hayden and the Chicago 7 confront the Viet Nam war… did you go to war and do your duty to Country, or if you disagreed with the policy, stood up and were a CO. Probably not. Never did put yourself on the line. My guess here, you are desk bound (no one building things, working with his hands , could come up with such a dumb statement….well I take that back, there is pottery) in a nice cozy non profit, or in some lovely liberal arts college… fighting, like a little bird, for ever more share of the pie,.

Welcome. Yes, the debate on occasions is genuine and intelligent. It can also be mind-numbingly dumb and crude.
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I find myself hoping you’re a conservative, since those of us who are moderates and liberals have so little opportunity to tussle over the issues with a conservative who will engage the debate respectfully and thoughtfully (yes, it does happen sometimes). But whatever you “are,” I’m glad you’ve made yourself known, and hope you jump into the fray.

mcal, you appear to be a one trick pony, who only writes in that Joe doesn’t have the right to comment on issues of the day since he doesn’t have the past experience to give him credibility. He didn’t serve, he didn’t march, he didn’t whatever.
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As always, you’re entitled to your opinion, foolish and trifling as it might be. But have you applied this same standard elsewhere? Did you disregard the statements of Bush, Cheney, Bolton and others when it came to the need for military action in the Middle East, giving their avoidance of service in combat?
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Do you apply this when listening to Rush or Beck or Hannity?
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Don’t worry, I won’t stick around for the answer. I think I already know.

Kevin, if they are demanding Obama praise Bush for the surge isn’t the answer, victory has been achieved? It seems to follow logically from the rage over Bush. It also begs the question as to why so many troops are still needed.

sacredh,
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The bow on World War II LSTs would split open left and right, and then the ramp inside would drop down to the beach. This allowed vehicles to be off-loaded without having to go over the side.
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A regular front-loading ramp, like what you saw on LCTs and LCMs in the war, would restrict an LST’s seaworthiness, so the engineers had to come up with a way that put a more traditional ship’s bow on the front.

Here’s what it looked liked when the bow is open:
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http://explorepahistory.com/images/ExplorePAHistory-a0j8m0-a_349.jpg
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Yes, I am that much of a history geek.

I’ll add my welcome to that of the others. The quality of the majority of the comments is what has kept me here from the beginning. I have learned so much, hope you find the same. And, have also had fun and laughs!

When you are Obama and you wake up to see Bush being more popular than yourself, how do you not just call it quits!

Maybe the country just doesn’t deserve the great leader it has

“What happens when the insurgents, reorganize, and begin blowing things up again without our highly skilled and trained military men and women there to defend against it?”
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Then it’ll be up to Iraq’s highly skilled and trained military men and women to keep their country safe.

I just wonder – does yesterday’s speech by Obama meets the requirements to be taken as the declaration of the end of the war in Iraq? Nobody seems to be saying the words “the end of the war” officialy.

There is one commonality to the reaction to President Obama’s speech that had little or nothing to do with the war in Iraq.

The “Birther-Muslimist-Conservanuts” who still think that all-things-Cheney/Rumsfeld are true hate everything Obama says and does because they are in denial as to their own gullibility and responsibility for the thousands of lives wasted by feeding Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld’s ego.

The basic rule of co-dependency is that an alcoholics (Beck) or drug addicts (Limbaugh) don’t know when they are lying, even when they are sober. Apparently the believers who watch the Flatulent News Network don’t know it either.

11charlie, thank you for the explanation and link. It was quite a sight. There were so many people that showed up that the county sheriff’s department had to send out cruisers to manage the traffic. The only part of the day that wasn’t good was the heat. It was in the mid 90′s here and people started coming 2 hours before the ship arrived. You could see the heat waves rising up off the concrete. I’ve been there for over 35 years so I’m used to it, but we had so many of the elderly visitors (including vets in uniform) that we were concerned for their health. After everyone had left I went over to police our parking area and found just one water bottle laying out. It was a great crowd.

When you are Obama and you wake up to see Bush being more popular than yourself, how do you not just call it quits!
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When Obama saw that Bush is more popular than he is — was that before or after he saw pigs flying across a green sky?

Welcome, db!

Wrongo, Gentile Virginia, I am still here, more than willing to address your point, and I can assure you, there are a few more tricks to the pony. Bush , Cheney , Clinton Limbaugh et al did not serve. Their lack of service is well known, and discounted by either a voting electorate, or ratings. Joe’s situation is not well known.

But Joe has one particular failing, that is too often ignored; his continual habit of questioning the motives of other people he disagrees with. No one can be right if they disagree with Joe; they are dumb, ignorant or lack perspective. This came to a despicable head in his attempt to demean Charles Krauthammer, and his lack of nuance, because he is wheelchair bound. Well what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. Would Joe see things differently if he were six inches taller? If he did not see the world as the “small man” he is , without all the attendant baggage of the word/syndrome . Would his writing and appearances be less confrontational, have less name calling, have , shall we say, more nuance. I tend to think so. How about you? I shall not wait for the reply.

It is not the end of the war. It is the end of “combat operations” and the start of “stability operations”.
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The withdrawal, which will reduce the number of American troops to 50,000 — from 112,000 earlier this year and close to 165,000 at the height of the surge — is a feat of logistics… It is also an exercise in semantics.
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What soldiers today would call combat operations — hunting insurgents, joint raids between Iraqi security forces and United States Special Forces to kill or arrest militants — will be called “stability operations.” Post-reduction, the United States military says the focus will be on advising and training Iraqi soldiers, providing security for civilian reconstruction teams and joint counterterrorism missions. (link)
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Nothing ended, it was given a more palatable name. We are still protecting our bases and clearing the way for private enterprise.

These are great points, pintortwo. We’re all shouting “hip hip hooray” because of a messaging change.

“Joe has one particular failing, that is too often ignored; his continual habit of questioning the motives of other people he disagrees with. No one can be right if they disagree with Joe; they are dumb, ignorant or lack perspective.”
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Being dumb, ignorant or lacking perspective aren’t “motives”. The need to defeat perceived enemies (usually liberals and/or Democrats) and follow their authoritarian leaders are typical motives of the right-wing base, which often causes them to appear dumb, ignorant or lacking perspective. BTW, you may have heard, Joe is a pundit. It’s his job to criticize public figures who say things that are dumb, ignorant or lack perspective. It’s easy pickin’s these days.

“In a questionable war, those sacrifices ramify and haunt the survivors–that is why the incidence of post-traumatic stress disorder is so high among Iraq veterans.”

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That’s a pretty broad statement Klein, and delivered with the typical arrogance of one who presumes to speak for all.

I’m no war hawk, and fear that the war in Iraq was a mistake, nevertheless, one has to acknowledge that the U.S. has not suffered further terrorist attacks on its own soil since the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq. Commentators like Klein—a title he apparently eschews for himself, yet freely bestows on others in his business—seems loathe to consider that the U.S. presence in those countries may have staved off further attacks in our own, a fact liberals overlook, as it might bely that Bush did something right.

Thirdly, Klein, and other liberals, prodigiously assert that the U.S. was unprepared for the war, in personnel and equipment, yet they conveniently neglect to point out that President Clinton closed 28 major military bases during his terms in office, in addition to the realignment and closure of many other smaller ones, and drastically reduced the number of enlisted military personnel, as well.

Klein is of the same ilk as other partisans on Fox News or MSNBC, and consistently relies on ad hominems and oversimplifications in order to make his point.

rocco:
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Hopefully, it has been the Dept of Homeland Security, FBI and CIA that have kept us safe these past 9 years.
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Invading foreign countries seems like a terribly inefficient way to keep ourselves safe; and, you can check in with the residents of Madrid and London as to the effectiveness as well.
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re: “seems loathe to consider that the U.S. presence in those countries may have staved off further attacks in our own, a fact liberals overlook…”
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That’s a pretty broad statement Klein rocco, and delivered with the typical arrogance of one who presumes to speak for all.

The reasons are obvious. It’s their professionalism, their bravery and their sacriface. Is that really complicated?

For conservatives I think there is an extra edge to touting the service of the soldiers is because they are so anti-elitist. If you want a contrast between two totally different species listen to those who serve and so many of those who’ve graduated from elite schools and went on to the soft life of politiical govt service. Listening to people like the Clintons or Obama’s talk about how hard they’ve had it compared to people who really have had it hard rankles sane people.

There is a reason why in poll after poll Americans by huge majorities support and respect the military while they detest Congress, academia and other elitists institutions. The gaps are 50%. 70% to 20% is a stunning 3.5 to 1. Senator Robert F byrd thought he was a great man spending other peoples money building monuments to himself in WV. I think he was a pig.

Or put another way: William F Buckley famously said. “I’d rather be governed by the 1st 300 names in the Boston Phone book than the Harvard faculty”. It’s a fabulous test if you want to find out if someone is liberal or conservative. The conservative will say 100% of the time without hesitation, go with the phone book.

Conservatives have very successfully made sure Americans understand what group represents the best among us. Few members of the Harvard faculty would agree but even fewer care what they think.

I’ll ask for an explanation on the last two.
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I’m totally last as to what you even mean by your last claim.

I watched the “speech” (I was torn between watching Obama or an infomerical for “Rossetta Stone,” but I went first with the speech).

His speech was weak…little “sound, no furry…and of little significance.” Is his teleprompter failing him?

I’m sure many on the left will praise Obama and his few words, but to me it was a little speech from a president that more and more Americans now recognize as nothing more than a little politician.

Thanks Cliff. IMO, it’s an on-going PR campaign to get US citizens to accept the indefinite occupation of foreign countries. We are in the early stages of the Long War:
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“The concept of the “Long War” is attributed to former CENTCOM Commander Gen. John Abizaid, speaking in 2004. Leading counterinsurgency theorist John Nagl, an Iraq combat veteran and now the head of the Center for a New American Security, writes that “there is a growing realization that the most likely conflicts of the next fifty years will be irregular warfare in an ‘Arc of Instability’ that encompasses much of the greater Middle East and parts of Africa and Central and South Asia.”
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In this perspective, Iraq is only an immediate front, with Afghanistan and Pakistan the expanding fronts, in a single larger war from the Middle East to South Asia. Instead of thinking of Iraq like Vietnam, a war that was definitively ended, it is better to think of Iraq as a setback, or better a stalemate, on a larger battlefield where victory or defeat are painfully hard to define over a timespan of five decades.”
(link)

“Commentators like Klein…seems loathe to consider that the U.S. presence in those countries may have staved off further attacks in our own, a fact liberals overlook, as it might bely that Bush did something right.”
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Maybe that’s because it’s completely idiotic. 1) troops in country A provide zero protection in country B, 2) troops occupying and killing tens of thousands of innocent people in country A create untold numbers of hardened enemies who would gladly harm country B and 3) fighting military wars in countries A and C drain resources and attention from strengthening security in country B and hunting down and killing terror cells that are the actual enemy – as opposed to the countries of Iraq and Afghanistan.
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More likely, we haven’t been successfully attacked again because al Qaeda doesn’t have the wherewithal to accomplish such an attack. It was a high-concept, low resource attack that caught us with George “bin’Laden determined to Strike US” Bush and Dick Cheney’s pants down. But hey, we’ve created so many new enemies because “Bush did something right,” I’m sure they’ll find a way eventually. Maybe we should attack someone else who is no threat to us (Iran?) just to make sure.

Ireed, this was a post on a cable channel seen by a small number of (I suppose) informed individuals. One can’t say it shows the impression of the nation as a whole — though one can always hope it’s representative.

@mcal:
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Just what the h311 is wrong with nonprofits and with the people who work for them? Most nonprofits do excellent work for people in need, people unable to care for themselves. And they do it without adequate finances, which in turn causes them to hire their staff at ridiculous salaries (ridiculous as in extremely low).
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It just so happens I could be making a lot more 3-4X as much as I make if I was in a for-company, but I believe in the necessity of my work, I beleive in giving everybody a helping hand, and I honestly enjoy my work. So I accept my pay of just over 20 grand, work with my group of boys who need help, and survive on what I have. I sacrifice travel and nice cars for the benefit of doing work that I love and the feeling of having given back to my community.

welcome db. Unlike several posters here, I don’t often say anything, I read and learn and comment only occasionally. Usually, by the time I’ve come online, several have already expressed what I want to say so I just don’t bother.

Principle VI

The crimes hereinafter set out are punishable as crimes under international law:

(a) Crimes against peace:
(i) Planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances;
(ii) Participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of any of the acts mentioned under (i).

http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2008/12/10/forgive-and-forgetforget/

Everyone seems to have forgotten that on the campaign trail, Obama eventually agreed that the troop surge had succeeded “beyond our wildest dreams.” Even McCain subsequently criticized Obama for refusing to acknowledge the surge’s success. There’s no need to continue to needle Obama for some kind of admission on this point–he’s already conceded the point.

By the way, any time our President announces the end of a war, it would be appropriate to cite some evidence indicating this is the right time to make peace. Declaring his campaign promise fulfilled is a good start. Pointing out that Saddam Hussein no longer threatens to invade his neighbors, no longer ladles cash rewards on the families of Palestinian suicide bombers and will never again use Iraqi agents to attempt to assassinate George H.W. Bush would be another. That Iraq no longer defies U.N. sanctions and no longer rapes, pillages, and massacres its own people would also be a sign that it’s time for us to go. A lot has changed for the better as a result of our involvement, and our President (and Joe Klein) should be ashamed not to mention it.

erie. You are right non-profits do some very good work. But as the gov of Indiana has recently stated the host can only stand so many parasites, before it too is put at risk. Non profits produce nothing, and do not provided anything which would help us compete in the global marketplace. Unfortunately they seem to exist to provide jobs for liberal arts majors who would otherwise be asking: “was that a tall latte, or a grande latte,” as compared to the high school grad who would like to know if “you want fries with that.”

Keep up the good work.But remember, this is about Joe Klein and how he avoided Viet Nam Service…at least that is how it all started. If he does not owe people like me an answer, he does to folks like you who do such an admirable job of carrying his water, and buy his magazine. Every time I go to buy TIME, seriously I get ill, nauseous even, in fact , just being on this website…time to go.

You’re saying he should’ve flown a jet onto an aircraft carrier to give the speech, right?

Regardless of what Obama and McCain said on the campaign trail, the surge accomplished nothing (other than convince Americans it was successful). Whether the lessening of violence was a result of the extra troops, the cease fire by al Sadr, ethnic cleansing that already took place, Iran’s mediation, 20 ft blast walls separating the combatants, bribing tribes not to fight, or outright manipulation of the numbers (see here), or any combination thereof, the surge did not achieve reconciliation among Iraqi sects. They currently have no government- they’ve been unable to form a parliament since March as the various sects are at each other’s throats.
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According to the Iraqis, July was the most violent month since March 08 (to follow) – this is sectarian war.
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Saddam was not a threat to invade his neighbors in ’03; one-third of his country was a no-fly zone. Bush Sr rendered him impotent.
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Despite the cessation of the despicable act of rewarding the families of “martyrs” that attack Israel, the Israeli/Palestinian conflict continues as it has for years.
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I am not impressed by a plot to assassinate GHW Bush, neither was Bush as he allowed Saddam to live and rule.
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Not sure how you can defy sanctions– but those sanctions are credited with killing 500K Iraqi children and are mentioned in al Qaeda’s fatwa against the US.
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Iraq “rapes, pillages, and massacres its own” at a higher rate than before we invaded.
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The only “result(s) of our involvement” seem to be switching one despot for another, the Shiites are winning the civil war.. and we now have forward bases.

to follow
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http://edition.presstv.ir/detail/136959.html

those sanctions are credited with killing 500K Iraqi children
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Lesley Stahl on U.S. sanctions against Iraq: We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that’s more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?
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Secretary of State Madeleine Albright: I think this is a very hard choice, but the price–we think the price is worth it.
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–60 Minutes (5/12/96)
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- link
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Makes you wonder about the long-term effects of our sanctions on Iran.

oops, this should be comment 27.3

You’re welcome, sacredh.

After watching the speech, I don’t agree with anything in it at all. In fact I feel that three minuets of my life has just been wasted.

Ok. So the war in Iraq is over but at what cost. Billions of dollars spent carelessly and thousands of U.S. Troops killed and even more wounded. And now with the pull out of the troops, There is no guarantee that the Iraq government will keep control and this only puts the American citizens left be hide at a higher risk.

Yes Bush started the war by sending in troops but he had the support of Congress and everyone else behind him. No one was going to have terrorists attack us and we not do anything about it.

What Obama has done as President has accomplished nothing, in fact only made things worst.

No wonder he is talking to Bush

welcome db~
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I’m one of the posters who has sometimes posted often and too often posted lengthily.
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Beware!
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Although a recent project here will probably spur my evolution into a different mode. Take heart.

and today’s threads do seem to be refreshingly low on the invectives and refreshingly high on stimulating dialogue.
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I think we’d all like to see more of that, even those of us who have participated in the invectiveness.
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I, too, hope you may be a “non-liberal”, and thus your appreciation of what you have read so far means you will help present “non-liberal” perspectives in similar fashion, thus helping keep the range of ideas broad, rich, and articulated in manners that can be easily “heard”.
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Maybe you will try keeping us in the dark as to your political ideology as long as you can, and simply opine on the merits of the issues. It would be interesting.

Newfreedom and Mycophile,

“Mycophile’s Comment
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“Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, after hearing the closing arguments of the attacking defense, I rest my case.”
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You’re Honor as Foreman of the Jury I am reporting that the Jury has reached a verdict in this very important case.
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Please go to post 42 and 42.1 in “Glenn Beck, Heretic to learn the verdict .

Apr,
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“I will really be sick if the reactionaries on this site begin to hope for more mayhem in Iraq just for political motives.
Enough have been injured or killed in the feckless Bush/Cheney war. Iraqis, American soldiers and their allies have paid enough for a bogus war.”
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What a Vicious, Biased, Un-Christian like thing to say.
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Your Hatred for people that have different views then yours eclipses All other commenters who post on this site.
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You must be a very unhappy person to have so much Hate in you.

I did not get to view the actual speech, but after reading over the main points, it seems like he is trying to gain back some popularity votes by saying troops are going to start pulling out of Iraq. Pulling out the troops was one of his main campaigning tools to let people know he was going to “change” the prior administrations problems. However, if he wants to focus on the economy and problems we are facing, pulling out of Iraq would probably not be the best decision at the moment. If he thinks our economy is bad now, it will only get worse as the war is funding a lot of our economy at the moment. Not to mention we would probably start bringing down the economy of Iraq and several surrounding areas.