In the Arena

Mosque Bore

Over at the National Review, Clifford D. May takes the mainstream media, including Time, to task for rolling over for the “terrorists” on the Cordoba Center mosque in downtown Manhattan. He does cite our poll which had 46% of Americans thinking that Muslims were more likely than others religionists to act violently:

Goodness, why would anyone think that? Could it have something to do with the fact that there have been close to 16,000 terrorist attacks carried out in the name of Islam since 9/11? Just last month, Time had on its cover the photograph of an 18-year-old Afghan girl whose nose and ears were sliced off by members of the Taliban because she had violated Islamic religious law as they interpret it by “running away from her husband’s house.” The word “Taliban” means “the students.” Students of what? Engineering? Dentistry? No. Of Islam.

Now, to say that this is slipshod slander of more than 1.5 billion human beings (minus maybe 20,000 extremists) is almost beside the point. Although I do find it offensive that Mr. May has problems with Sufis–among the most peaceful religionists extant–the former Cat Stevens, the Green Movement protesters in Iran, the “liberated” people of Iraq, plus several close Muslim friends of mine who are–at least, it seems to me–far more civilized than any hater who would make this sort of statement.

It can be safely said that Mohammed, unlike Jesus and Moses, was a prophet who took up the sword and this may have had some influence on some of his more extreme followers (Moses, a wise delegator, asked God to take up the sword against his enemies). It could also be said that western colonial assumptions about Islamic inferiority may have had something to do with creating the ghastly anger that attends the outer precincts of Islam now. And it could also be said that Christianity, in its crusading phase, spilled an awful lot blood and behaved, in general, in a manner that might have caused its pacifist Jewish founder to become a Buddhist or Zoroastrian, or a Sufi.

But none of this matters. Nor does the occasional immoderate statements made by the Cordoba Center’s founder, who truly seems a person attempting to create an important interfaith dialogue…most of the time.

Why doesn’t it matter? Because the Cordoba controversy isn’t about Islam. It is about America. It is about whether or not we take the freedom of religion clause in our Constitution seriously. And that is all the dispute is about. Period. I find it hilarious that conservatives who insist on the purity of the Second Amendment are such relativists when it comes to the First. I find it appalling that neoconservative Jews, whose presence and historic success in this country is a consequence of the First Amendment, would deny full rights to Muslims…and that, in their mania, seem to think that it’s all right to defame so many innocent people. (By refusing to acknowledge the specific and benign humanity of most Palestinians, for example–a too-common practice among American Likudniks–they relinquish the right to be assumed civilized themselves.)

I am, admittedly, a bit radical on this subject: I think Ground Zero itself–not a building two blocks away–would be a terrific site for a mosque, as a demonstration of American freedom, one of the truly superior qualities our nation offers the world. But you don’t have to agree with me. You don’t even have to like Muslims. You may be concerned about the senstivities of  some of the families of some of the 9/11 victims; I certainly am; some of them are my neighbors.

You just have to like the Constitution. I love it.

Update: Greg Sargent took Krauthammer to task for similar assumptions about the nature of Islam recently in the Washington Post.

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  • southernbell49

    MSM outlets like CNN really should be hanging their heads in shame for allowing this anti-Islam nonsense to go on.

    The reason more Americans are think less of the Islam religion now than they did after 9/11 can be laid at the media’s door for giving bigots and cynical pols and pundits a soapbox on which to spread the hatred.

  • ath716

    Out of 1.5 billion muslims, you think there are 20,000 extremists? Are you only counting actual suicide bombers?

  • mycophile

    allow me to preemptively fix any of newfreedomblog’s, freinpa’s, earlj’s, and/or 2thirdsrocks’s responses to comment #1:
    .
    “I disagree”

  • mycophile

    nice statistics assumption check.
    .
    what would your guesses at those numbers be?

  • textee

    “Over at the National Review, ….”

    The magazine is called National Review. There ain’t no “the” there.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    You’ve written a lot about this subject but this time you finally nailed it.

    Ask one question and one question only. Do you believe in freedom?

    That is the only question that matters.
    All the rest is hand-waving.

  • deconstructiva

    You may be concerned about the senstivities (sic – typo, Joe) of some of the families of some of the 9/11 victims
    .
    …do families of 9/11 Muslim victims count too? (but I digress)
    .
    And what southernbell said. If the MSM had toned down the heat – even as far as NOT calling the place Ground Zero Mosque™, which it isn’t – maybe we’d be reading more swampposts about Palin, etc. instead of THAT place right now. The MSM literally should adopt kevin’s name Burlington Coat Factory Community Center™. It’s more accurate and less inflammatory.

  • mycophile

    a very important clarification, textee.
    .
    There is no “the” in “Walmart”, either. But a global free trade advocate who supports polluting other countries in order to produce tons of cheap plastic garbage might write “over next to the Walmart”

  • mycophile

    I, too, vote for the BCFCC nametag

  • http://derekg.wordpress.com/ Derek

    Those opposed to the separation of church and state are opposed to democracy itself. We must be careful to guard against the totalitarians who are now among, the enemies of freedom and private property and radical opponents of the constitution.

  • kathy

    Agreed, and well said.

    I’ve been thinking what an opportunity we all missed after 9/11, when we could have built a multi-faith multicultural center on the ground at the WTC

    And compromise is such a nice word, isn’t it? I’m really torqued by those who don’t seem to understand that “compromise” in this case means the mosque has to be moved somewhere else. I guess “compromise” means “we’ll let you have it at all.”

  • ath716

    According to this Pew poll (http://pewresearch.org/pubs/483/muslim-americans), 8% of American Muslims think suicide bombing against civilian targets to defend Islam is often/sometimes justified. 5% were willing to tell a pollster that they have a favorable view of Al Qaeda. So, I think you be safe in saying at least 100,000 in the United States alone.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    I had the uncomfortable misfortune of dining with Mr. May several years ago in DC. As an undergraduate fellow with Cliff May’s Foundation for the Defense of Democracies, myself and several other students were active in media relations on our respective campuses and we joined Cliff for dinner one evening to discuss our efforts. Suffice it to say, I didn’t speak much that evening. There really is no polite response that one can offer to those who see black as white, up as down, and right as wrong. The man is a seditious twit, all too eager to distort the truth and enter into a long-winded diatribes with all the gusto of a properly trained Zionist lackey. I’m shocked I was able to hold my meal down that night.

  • m0mentom0ri

    “There ain’t no “the” there.”
    .
    “Ain’t” isn’t a word.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Don’t hold back Neo, how do you really feel?

  • earljr1

    I just love liberal logic….just name it the “Burlington coat factory community center” and the problem goes away..brilliant!! You can dress up a pig, decon, but it is STILL a pig. What about the sentiments of 61% of Americans who think it is a lousy idea to build there? This administration makes a habit of ignoring the will of the American people, so why should they listen now? Could mid term elections have anything to do with it? The left wing mind set wishes to dictate terms and policy to the American public with NO concerns whatever, about how the public perceives their action. Guess what? NO MORE, your chicanery resonates loudly in our memory and we will show our displeasure, come November.

  • calapygian

    Joe,

    I knew you when I worked at Time Inc., and you’re going to have to edit your list of peaceful Sufis: I personally witnessed the former Cat Stevens, when he was a guest on the old David Susskind show, expressing the hope that he personally would have the chance to kill Salman Rushdie. This doesn’t detract from your larger point, but do some research before reflexively composing a list of Moslem good guys.

  • shepherdwong

    “I find it hilarious that conservatives who insist on the purity of the Second Amendment are such relativists when it comes to the First.”
    .
    No, the Second Amendment is about “well-regulated militias.” They’re pretty-much hypocrites and relativists all of the time.
    .
    I admire your stand on this issue, Joe Klein. Though I still say it’s about more than the Constitution, which is just a document after all, no matter how worthy. This is about who we are as a moral and ethical people.

  • ohiolibb

    What about the sentiments of 61% of Americans who think it is a lousy idea to build there?
    -
    What about the fact that 61% of America doesn’t live in NYC, and therefore doesn’t get to decide what gets built there? Or are popularity polls the only argument you have left?

  • shepherdwong

    Having heard and seen May, I though he was being quite restrained.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    Having heard and seen May, I though he was being quite restrained.
    .
    You thought that May’s commentary was restrained or you thought my observation of May was restrained? Or both? I’d go with both, as May has said repulsively worse and I could certainly match his level of vileness with a deeper analysis of the man.

  • shepherdwong

    I’m with you, Neo.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    That’s stranger than fiction…

  • diecash1

    Or are popularity polls the only argument you have left?

    That’s not even an argument; it’s plain stupidity. How many various groups would still be denied their rights if we governed by popular sentiment? Pure, unadulterated idiocy it is.

  • kevin

    How many various groups would still be denied their rights if we governed by popular sentiment?
    .
    A lot of groups would still be denied their rights, but earl doesn’t belong to any of them, I’d bet. Odds are he’s white, male, heterosexual, well-to-do, non-immigrant, and Protestant. (The religion is a guess. A lot of Jews and Catholics today don’t seem to realize that people of their faiths were the Muslim hordes of the 19th and early 20th centuries, so I suppose he could be something other than a WASP.)
    .
    In the eyes of earl — and all the other older white conservative guys who regularly post their Glenn Beck talking points of fear and rage on this site (rusty, freep, 3x, 2thirds, etc.) — none of those different minority groups really matter. In fact, getting away from a “majority rules” approach is what got all these liberals in power, right?

  • groenhagen2

    “You just have to like the Constitution. I love it.”

    Liberace and other limp-wristed liberals are still missing the boat on this issue. No one is arguing that Muslims do not have the right to build the Cordoba House of Hate so close to the WTC site. The question is is it the RIGHT thing to do? Most Americans, including the families of those murdered by Muslims on 9/11, do not believe it is.

    And Liberace’s love for the Constitution appears to be quite conditional.
    http://thedemocraticdaily.com/2009/08/18/joe-klein-on-guns-at-obama-events/

  • http://erieangel.wordpress.com erieangel

    @earl:
    .
    Just because a majority of Americans don’t want the community center at this site doesn’t mean they are right. A majority of Americans were against the Equal Rights Amendment, too. This issue is about nothing but the Constitution, which I’m beginning to think most republicans hate until they can use it for their own ends.

  • earljr1

    I am 37. kevin, so probably a lot younger than you. Age makes no difference when it comes to using common sense and THIS is precisely the point. Why choose this location if it evokes the anger and anguish it is causing? Is it deliberate? neither one of us has the answer to that question, but I do know the majority of Americans oppose this building site. From a standpoint of public relations, WHY would you force something on people and only create MORE anger and resentment. As stated, it simply makes NO sense. Democrats are already in trouble for refusing to listen to the American people and it appears you are inviting more animosity by tuning them out, yet again.

  • mycophile

    First. let me correct that for you:
    .
    “The question is, is it the correct thing to do?
    It is painfully obvious it’s not the “right” thing to do, although it should be.
    .
    Secondly, on your link, the judges overrule
    .
    There is no provable public safety argument in the case of the BCFCC

  • http://erieangel.wordpress.com erieangel

    The new argument I’ve been hearing is not “if building at the Burlington Coat Factory site is the right thing to do” but “where is the financing coming from”? The right wing is spread fear and hatred and the sooner reasonable people come to that realization, the sooner the community center will be built.
    .
    I was watching a news program while doing my paperwork at work this evening and one guy was asked how far away from ground zero is far enough. The guy refused to answer, instead continued spouting off about “where is the money coming from?”

    Note: Don’t ask me what program it was, because somebody else had turned the program on, I was just listening to the conversation while I wrote progress notes.

  • mycophile

    yeah, that’s all I want to know now, too. I could send ‘em my address and hope that some would find its way to my mailbox . . .

  • kevin

    Why choose this location if it evokes the anger and anguish it is causing?
    .
    Because this location is where they live.
    .
    These are American citizens who have lived in that neighborhood since the 1980s. And they have the right to worship God in their own neighborhood, rather than have to take an hour commute into Brooklyn or wherever, just because Newt Gingrich is making huffing noises about it at a press conference way down in Marietta.
    .
    Their neighbors support the building of the community center. Jews and Christians sit on its board, and the local zoning board voted 27-to-1 in favor of it. And of course their neighbors support it — what’s currently there is a boarded up Burlington Coat Factory, and what’s proposed is a community center with a pool, a gym, seminar rooms. What the nominally-Jewish 92nd St. Y did for the community on the Upper West Side, the nominally-Muslim Cordoba House would do for Lower Manhattan.
    .
    For all the blather about how this was an intentional provocation, let’s not forget that this was all fine — even Laura Ingraham gave it her blessing on Fox News in December, for God’s sake — until a bunch of politicians from hundreds of miles away stuck their noses into it, started spreading lies about it being “the Ground Zero Mosque,” and whipped gullible people into a frenzy about it.
    .
    Fox News is condemning the imam as a wild-eyed radical when he’s nothing of the sort. The Bush administration invited him to speak on America’s behalf for peace in the Middle East, and the family of Daniel Pearl had him give a moving speech at a memorial for the slain journalist. But Fox is going at it all the same, because it is Good For Their Team™. (They’ve gone so far as to condemn the imam for getting $300,000 in funding from a Saudi prince who just happens to own $2,500,000,000 in stock in Fox News.)
    .
    This is their neighborhood, period. They have the right to worship there. And you and I — and certainly not a bunch of politicians who don’t have the slightest thing to do with Manhattan except to come here to use it as a photo op — they have no business sticking their noses in here and putting these Americans’ constitutional rights up for a majority vote.
    .
    You can talk all you want about your feelings. I lost friends on 9/11, and frankly, the biggest insult to their memory is Newt Gingrich and Sarah Palin coming up here to turn that tragedy into an even greater one, by trampling on the Constitution in order to win a few more seats in the House. Pathetic.
    .
    Conservatives keep telling us that “the terrorists hate us for our freedoms.” Apparently, conservatives hate our freedoms too.

  • earljr1

    You seem absolutely certain they LIVE there, what makes you so sure? I understand there is an existing Mosque just a few blocks from this site, so is it worth the turmoil to add another? I think not and so do the majority of Americans. Liberals walk to a different drumbeat than most of us, so by all means, continue your mad dash off the cliff….you are only making the election an easier choice for moderate and conservative Americans. Even your hero, Harry Reid, understands the math, kevin, you apparently, do not.

  • perrywhite1

    Can we fan here? Because I am a fan of kevin at 5.8. Well spoken, sir.

  • mycophile

    and “ain’t no” is a double negative
    .
    is that the opposite of, or effectively the same as a double positive (as in “it depends on what the definition of is is”)?

  • sasquatch08

    Ok, I haven’t had a chance to post here recently because I’ve been extremely busy, but I’ve been waiting for this topic to come up.
    .
    Let me cut through the obvious mental retardation on both sides of this argument, so that both sides can scream “bigot”, “moron” or whatever other words you choose at me.
    .
    I don’t see why it is so effing hard to admit that building this a few blocks from Ground Zero might be a bad idea (as previously pointed out it’s not ACTUALLY at Ground Zero).
    .
    Clearly the people who wish to build this Mosque have the right to build it anywhere they can get a zoning permit issued by NYC. That’s not an issue, never has been, so pull your head out of your butt Kieth Olberman. The Constitution is designed to protect us from the “tyranny of the majority” as much as to protect us from the “tyranny of the minority”. What is at issue is if it’s “right” or “sensitive” to build at this location.
    .
    Personally I don’t give a damn about “sensitive”. This “sensitive” crap is why this country is a bunch of whips who cry about things that don’t even affect them and cling to the hope that a risk free society is possible (it’s not). That said however, it might be rather short sighted of the Muslims that wish to build near Ground Zero to do so.
    .
    I say this for a number of reasons, including but not limited to the following: Clearly there are a lot of people in the country who are against this Mosque being built at it’s proposed location, and not all of them are racists, bigots, rednecks or right wing nuts. Many I’m sure feel that it’s simply unnecessary to put it there for a variety of reasons. However, this still isn’t the point. The real point is that this could, and I hope it doesn’t, but could result in another tragedy in lower Manhattan.
    .
    There are a variety of people who would love to visit violence on this place for a variety of reasons. If it’s a peaceful place, truly engaged in outreach to American Christians and Jews and it’s location has been chosen to be a sort of statement that peace is possible no-matter-what it could become the target of Islamic-extremists i.e. terrorists. Who would be angered if it was even remotely successful or who might just fly off the handle due to it’s mission. Let’s not forget these lunatics kill aid workers who would help the terrorists themselves if given the chance because they believe in helping everyone.
    .
    On the other hand, no matter what this Mosque is it could, due solely to it’s location become the target of another nutcase like Tim McVeigh.
    .
    Personally, I believe they have these people have the right to do what they want and not have those rights trampled by the minority nor the majority. However, I do worry that building at this location, regardless what the reason behind it is, may be a fools errand that will only end in more bloodshed when some lunatic takes it upon him or herself to get their name in the papers around the world.
    .
    Build what you want where you want, I just hope some moron doesn’t blow it up/light it on fire/shoot it up/suicide bomb it.

  • Alex Vallas

    Add: Numerous “cop” and “investigative” themed TV serials always display an Arab or Muslim as the villian. Before our improved relations with Russia, the Russians were the ones. There is no question they play a role in the “anti” feelings of the viewing public.

  • http://derekg.wordpress.com/ Derek

    I think it is unfair of you to equate people with mental illness, through no fault of their own, to people who hate the constitution and are opposed to religious freedom and democracy.

  • kevin

    I understand they live there because I’ve seen it mentioned in several stories.
    .
    But you’re right, we probably need to have proof of residence for people to exercise their right to worship how they please. Maybe conservatives can couple this with their other big-tent issue and just force all non-white people in America to carry their papers with them everywhere.
    .
    That way, patriotically correct conservatives can tell if the Hispanic looking ones are allowed to work here and if the Muslim looking ones are allowed to pray here, too. And all the while you conservatives can keep lecturing the rest of us about how you’re the true defenders of freedom.

  • newfreedomblog

    There is also another unknown question which begs to be answered. What is the REAL reason for putting a mosque there?
    .
    And before my little liberal friends say, “it is a community center for muslims who live in the area”. Muslims do not live in this area. Just mainly taxi drivers who go home to Brooklyn after their shift is done. Store operators selling hotdogs, coffee and newspapers, who also go home to Brooklyn. Build it in Brooklyn and leave ground zero alone.
    .
    The reason is to build a conquerors mosque on another site they feel they have conquered. Period. That is why the original name was Cordoba House. That is why the Muslim Brotherhood is behind the financing of this project.

  • http://derekg.wordpress.com/ Derek

    This isn’t about the Muslims, it is about an attack on one of the foundational principles of the constitution. In other words, it is another form of attack on America. Some liberals might start wondering soon if Al Qaeda and the Republican Tea Party are working together.

  • diecash1

    Muslims do not live in this area

    You wouldn’t have evidence supporting this statement, would you? Of course not. You just want to mindlessly rant as per usual.
    ..
    According to this NYT article (link) two other mosques in the immediate area routinely turn people away for lack of space. This is the relevant passage

    Masjid Manhattan, on Warren Street, four blocks from ground zero, was founded in 1970. Masjid al-Farah, formerly on Mercer Street, moved to its present location on West Broadway, about 12 blocks from ground zero, in 1985. Both mosques — essentially one-room operations — routinely turn people away for lack of space.

    I realize in your small and twisted mind that this couldn’t possibly indicate that Muslims live there; they must be bussed in for worship, probably by ACORN or some other “liberal” operation.
    ..
    This is as much of a terrorist operation as Fox “News” is considering the same investor stands behind both operations but don’t let facts get in the way of your fevered imagination and incoherent ramblings.

  • earljr1

    The only incoherent rambling I hear, seems to be coming from YOU, diecash1. Your liberal sanctimony precludes utilizing “common sense” as a guideline here and therein, lies the problem. Why am I not surprised.

  • rdw56

    Derek, you really don’t want to connect the Tea Pary with Al Qaeda on a blog devoted to calling an opinion that Islam is more violent than other religions slanderous when it is not. Islam clearly IS more violent. Time didn’t pass on printing the famous cartoon of Mohammad because of their sensitivities to the feeling of muslims they did so out of fear of bring killed. They did column after column of piss christ and other insulls to Christianity so it’s clear it wasn’t sensitivity but fear driving that decision.

    Why libs want to trash the tea party as racists is nuts. They’re about fiscal policy and while you are busy trashing them they are growing and getting candidates elected.

    Time has been totally ineffective in diminishing the ground zero mosque controversity. If anything they made it worse.

  • rdw56

    Did you see that GDP report? 1.6% GDP growth is a train wreck. Obama is having a really bad summer.

  • mycophile

    it’s only a train wreck to a growth addict

  • mycophile

    What is the REAL reason for putting a mosque there?

    It doesn’t matter
    .
    The people who feel the project is “insensitive” to them will still feel that way even if the “real” reason for the project is the noblest of noble.
    .
    If the “real” reason includes nefarious intents, then watching for manifestations of such intent is in order, just as it is with any other suspected intents of that nature, everywhere, all the time.
    .
    And if you think that the Americans polled on this have a better idea of the validity of the claim of threat than do our law enforcement agencies, I’ll be surprised if you’ll dare to admit that. If it is a valid threat, don’t you think they are already watching it and will continue to do so?

  • diecash1

    Wow earl, that was impressive. I’ll make this short and in terms you can understand: You’re an ignorant douche. Why am I not surprised?

  • earljr1

    Oh my, diecash1 has his liberal feathers ruffled and his ONLY defense is to start hurling insults…what did I tell you? He is woefully lacking in manners AND good judgment. Again, no surprise here.

  • diecash1

    No ruffles here earl. I’m merely telling it like it is. You constantly utter the same inane bs all over these blogs and now you’re upset that I pointed it out. Instead of parroting your fellow small-minded brethren, why don’t you try contributing something of substance? I know, I know, it’s not really your style but give it a shot anyway.

  • pittsburghpoet

    Agreed.

  • tharwatfawzi

    All in the world pray now that President Obama will very soon publicly disclose to all Americans and to the world ,the names of the criminals who are ultimately responsible for , as well as the complete facts about , the crimes of 9/11 ,
    the two wars that followed in Iraq and Afghanistan – both citing 9/11 as the reason,
    the devastation that these wars have caused in these two countries ,
    the hundreds or thousands of Americans, Canadians and other NATO heroes killed or wounded ,
    the thousands or millions of Muslims and others who were killed, wounded ,displaced……in the world
    , the present daily killing of tens or hundreds of innocents in Iraq or Afghanistan to keep the US and NATO fully engaged , to claim that President Obama policies of disengagement are not working
    and the very serious economic problems that followed these wars in the USA and in the world.

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