In the Arena

Kristol: Obama Not A Muslim

Well, it’s good to learn that there are limits to Bill Kristol’s tactical skeevery. He clearly states here that Barack Obama is not a Muslim. No winks, no nods, no gratuitous McConnellesque “If he says he’s not, that’s okay with me.” But read the editorial all the way through and you get to this paragraph:

It’s similar with the Community Center Formerly Known as the Ground Zero Mosque. Today’s progressives are multiculturalists. They’re inclined to make grand claims about the positive merits of a multicultural, non-judgmental mosaic replacing our old, uniculturalist melting-pot view of America. But when political realities force them to retreat, as Obama has done in the mosque controversy, from a proud multiculturalism to a narrow defense of the right to the free exercise of religion and the right to build on private property, they’re in trouble. The free exercise of religion and respect for private property are not a promising agenda for progressives.

Say what? Is Kristol actually admitting that his crowd, including his aspirational hand-puppet Sarah Palin, have been arguing against the conservative themes of the “free exercise of religion and respect for private property?” Of course, the idea that the mosque debate can be simplified into a Manichean, liberal versus conservative, multiculturalist v. uniculturalist standoff is the sort of cheap campaign demagoguery that has become Kristol’s sole intellectual product. There are plenty of us who support both the mosque and melting pot uniculturalism (I’m certainly one of those). And I dare say that there are more than a few honorable conservatives who support the Islamic center because they believe in freedom of religion and private property (and more than a few not so honorable liberals and moderates who oppose the center for reasons of their own). This was never about multiculturalism, never about bilingualism or political correctness. It was always about one thing: the Constitution, a document that is proving to be inconvenient for populist wingnuts in many areas.

The cynical desecration of traditional conservative principles is a hallmark of the damage that people like Kristol have done to American political discourse and to a philosophical movement that, in its best, most sophisticated–and yes, ultimately, elitist–form, has plenty of value to contribute to our current policy discussions. Here are some conservative principles I admire: Foreign policy realism, budget discipline and a belief in (carefully regulated) markets as the best vehicles for delivering prosperity and even some forms of government services. The best conservatism has a healthy respect for complexity and a deep skepticism about the perfectability of human nature. Kristol’s superficial cant is somewhat different: it combines a deep addiction to oversimplification with an even deeper cynicism about the exploitability of human nature. This brand of radicalism–bellicose crusades abroad, riotous tax-cutting and cronyism at home and a mean-spirited nativist populism–has been a sad but witting perversion of  a valuable tradition.

The mosque controversy shows that many people who claim to lead the conservative movement do not believe in freedom of religion or private property; it also demonstrates that they are not conservatives, in any meaningful sense of the word, at all.

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  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)


    The cynical desecration of traditional conservative principles is a hallmark of the damage that people like Kristol have done to American political discourse and to a philosophical movement that, in its best, most sophisticated–and yes, ultimately, elitist–form, has plenty of value to contribute to our current policy discussions.

    .
    I agree. But let us not forget the intentional endeavors of many on the left to frame conservatism in simplistic terms that they can better combat, and incidentally, the failure of people like me and other paleoconservative-libertarians to adequately and vocally push back against such false narratives.

  • groenhagen2

    “If he says he’s not, that’s okay with me.”

    Can anyone point to where the man-child Obama himself has said he is not a Muslim?

    “The mosque controversy shows that many people who claim to lead the conservative movement do not believe in freedom of religion or private property.”

    Liberace is clearly engaging in projection here.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    Are you disputing that a vast many of the self-proclaimed conservative detractors of the community center are suggesting that “sensitivity” trumps religious freedom?

  • groenhagen2

    I’m with most Americans, and not just conservatives, who believe they have a right to build the Cordoba House, but that it is not the right thing to do. The Phelps clan has a right to protest military funerals, but few of us would argue that it is the right thing to do.

  • husein11

    While there are limits to Kristol’s tactical skeevery there are certainly no limits to Obama girl Joe’s skeevery.

  • shepherdwong

    …let us not forget the intentional endeavors of many on the left to frame conservatism in simplistic terms that they can better combat…
    .
    As if. Though I sure wish that liberals were as able to “frame conservatism” half as successfully as “conservatives” have framed liberalism “in simplistic terms that they can better combat.” I’m afraid that if the “conservative” brand is tattered, “conservatives” get to own that all by themselves. Remember, Kristol is supposed to be one of the sane and serious ones.

  • kevin

    Can anyone point to where the man-child Obama himself has said he is not a Muslim?
    .
    Sure. Here are 4.1 million examples.
    .
    http://www.google.com/search?q=obama+%22i+am+a+christian%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
    .
    Is that enough for you?
    .
    I ask this seriously — are you retarded? I mean, clinically diagnosed with some sort of severe mental illness? If so, I’ll stop responding to the profoundly idiotic things you say.

  • shepherdwong

    Good post, Joe. Although, at this point, the Muslim cultural center near ground zero is about more than the Constitution. It’s become a barometer of who we are as a people – literally, whether we’re capable of living up to the ideals expressed in that document.

  • grape_crush

    Invalid comparison, and a weak attempt to draw attention away from the thrust of Joe’s commentary.
    .
    You do realize that you’ve just proven Joe’s point, don’t you?
    .
    “This brand of radicalism–bellicose crusades abroad, riotous tax-cutting and cronyism at home and a mean-spirited nativist populism–has been a sad but witting perversion of a valuable tradition.”

  • apr2563

    Well, hooray! I am so glad the war mongering Kristol is here to tell us that Obama is not a muslim. That settles it then.
    As far as the community center, remember not long ago when so many people were so incensed by the Kelo decision by the Supreme Court and its interference in ownership of private property? The coat factory is private property and yet so many on the right feel a need to interfere on how it is used.
    Joe, after years of infighting among developers, 9/11 victim families, the city, and architects, can someone please tell us what is going to occupy the new trade center?

  • nflfoghorn

    “While there are limits to Kristol’s tactical skeevery there are certainly no limits to girlie man Huesin’s homophobic references.”
    .
    Fixed it for you.

  • apr2563

    grape..thanks. I can’t bring myself to respond to groenhagen2. Comapring building of the community center (not mosque, not on 9/11 site) to the Phelps crew is ludicrous.

  • nflfoghorn

    To answer your question, I had heard one reeeeeeally tall building.

  • apr2563

    OK nfloghorn, that is funny.
    To be clearer, I want to know what types of businesses, non-profits, etc are going to be in that reeeeeeeally tall building.

  • deconstructiva

    apr, I find the funny part to be conservatives against private property. I thought that was a core principle. What the hell’s “left” of their “values”? As for G-0 real estate, maybe patrick can share some insights; is he even working on deals there? (though he’s probably bound by confidentiality if so) Even more, whither patrick’s case against groenhagen and how it’s going?

  • pelhamite1

    The degeneration of conservatism from a set of powerful discipline-based precepts (if, perhaps, a tad harsh) to the vindictive, deeply cynical and, most of all, childish sentiments of the modern Republican party is sadly reflected in theis blog. Where we should be responding to the thoughtful points of Exiled at Home, it is hard not to be distracted by the bilge of goenhagen, husein, Rusty and the rest.

    Atr this point, would not George W. Bush (to say nothing about 41) be drummed out of the Republican party for being soft on Islam?

  • groenhagen2

    kevin:

    I realize you’re not that sharp (as demonstrated by your inability to read polls), but you didn’t provide an example of where the man-child himself has used the words, “I am not a Muslim.” He may have used those words at some time, but I have never seen them. (BTW, saying, “I am a Christian” is not the same as saying “I am not a Muslim.”)

    According to the New York Times, “As the son of the Muslim father, Senator Obama was born a Muslim under Muslim law as it is universally understood.”
    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/12/opinion/12luttwak.html?_r=3&pagewanted=print

  • groenhagen2

    grape_crush:

    “Invalid comparison, and a weak attempt to draw attention away from the thrust of Joe’s commentary.”

    It is a completely valid comparison, and the majority of Americans realize that it is valid. The only people who would call it invalid are the moonbats who are twisting themselves into pretzels trying to defend the incompetent Obama.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    Framing is a tactic employed across all political spectrums. I wasn’t signaling out the left by any means. And I accepted my responsibility for not better countering the relatively unnuanced perceptions of conservatism.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Two admirable conservative ideals, one of which is constitutionally mandated:
    .
    1) Freedom of religion.
    .
    2) Local government rather than State government when possible and state government rather than Federal government when possible. (ie: States rights).
    .
    But, if it is New York City when we, not supporting Republicans in the past ten years, get used as wingnut talking point it an opposition to religious freedom, that the State in Albany or Republican candidate from Buffalo (four hundred miles away) should use the State to stop this when locals find this acceptable.
    .
    Also, just as Unitarians and Branch Davidians are both Christian, Wahabbi and Suffis are both Muslim.
    .
    The Wahabbi are fundamentalist and the most radical of them were responsible for 9/11. The Sufis are famously the most laid back and the builders of the cultural center replacing two nearby Mosques and adding on fourteen floors for multi-cultural and multi-religious participation.
    .
    They are offering an olive branch stating that they have no ties to the sects of Islam who did the despicable actions and wingnuts who couldn’t find Ground Zero nor anything else in Manhattan without a GPS want to spit in their faces.
    .
    It is ironic that Liberals are defending what is traditionally conservative values and conservatives are taking an outrageous stance for no known reason.

  • nflfoghorn

    It IS taking way too long to put stories together.
    In all seriousness, I thought many businesss like Cantor Fitzgerald from the twin towers would be in the new tower. I don’t see much chance for smaller businesses occupying it.

  • Paul-no not that one

    Why am I supposed to care what Kristol thinks about BHO’s faith, again?

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “The only people who would call it invalid are the moonbats who are twisting themselves into pretzels trying to defend the incompetent Obama.”
    .
    If you weren’t severely brain damaged, you might know that nobody here changed their stance since Obama weighed in this. You, not surprisingly, are putting the carriage in front of the horse.
    .
    First, those most familiar with NYC, the constitution, the group lead by a Brooklyn born and raised Imam and their message supported the mosque.
    .
    Later Obama weighed in.
    .
    Those familiar with the situation influenced Obama’s opinion. Obama did not impact many people’s opinion.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    *singling…

  • shepherdwong

    Nevertheless, Republicans happen to be very practiced at framing almost everything things as something other than what they are, liberals are not. What mythical framing of “conservatism” from the left do you feel you’ve fail to adequately combat?

  • groenhagen2

    fatpat:

    “Also, just as Unitarians and Branch Davidians are both Christian, Wahabbi and Suffis are both Muslim.”

    That’s quite ignorant. Not all Unitarians are Christian. In fact, a small minority consider themselves Christians.

    In a 2001 survey, Unitarian Universalists in the United States were asked which provided term or set of terms best describe their beliefs. Many respondents chose more than one term to describe these beliefs. The top choices were:

    Humanist – 54%
    Agnostic – 33%
    Earth-centered – 31%
    Atheist – 18%
    Buddhist – 16.5%
    Christian – 13.1%
    Pagan – 13.1%

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Even more, whither patrick’s case against groenhagen and how it’s going?”
    .

    It’s been a painfully lean Summer to be frank, but, I can tell you that with the database I use regularly for property searches (Costar) I can tell you that finding any 100,000 square foot building for sale is difficult at any given moment since buildings can be held by investment groups for decades or even, in some cases, generations. If you find the right size building in the right neighborhood – forget being picky enough to get down to the perfect block – you should call yourself lucky.
    .
    Apparently the right wingers outside of NYC think that you can find a building at the right size for sale on every block.
    .
    The Sufi Muslim group wanted downtown at an affordable price.
    .
    Well, with almost every property leveraged, just like houses with first and second mortgages, many of these buildings are “underwater” (owe more than the building is worth). So, if that is the case, they would have to pay to sell the building at a big discount.
    .
    So, believe it or not, commercial sales have gone down, not up. Sellers can not cut prices and buyers can not get anything they would consider an adjusted good price.
    .
    Relative to downtown, fifteen floors is an average height building (maybe two or thee floors larger – but not huge).
    .
    Unless you are Muslim and want to pray for your own dead who were victims of 9/11 and looked for it while visiting Ground Zero, you wouldn’t know it was there.
    .
    If you are uninterested in Islam, you will not see the building by accident. It is, actually, closer to City Hall than Ground Zero and our mayor, who is Jewish, strongly appreciates the intent of the cultural center builders.

  • apr2563

    I am just wondering how many of the 1 World Trade Center occupants will be considered insensitive? I know there will be a China center that will have an exclusive area for business members only. Will Muslims be allowed to work their again? I know many died on 9/11 but will they now be persons non gratas? Will there be a religious sanctuary as part of the memorial at the site? Will it be open to all religious faiths? Jesus threw out the money changers. Will they be allowed into the new center? What is considered insensitive and/or sacraligeous?

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Fine!
    .
    Change that to Quakers.
    .
    If Branch Davidians blow up a building are you going to forbid a Quaker or, maybe, the Amish from building a church?

  • apr2563

    groenhagen2: I have to ask, do you consider yourself a Christian?

  • Ivy_B

    Frank Rich pointed out yesterday how all the fuss about the Park51 project or Burlington Coat Factory Community Center has damaged another of the conservatives center points –

    After 9/11, President Bush praised Islam as a religion of peace and asked for tolerance for Muslims not necessarily because he was a humanitarian or knew much about Islam but because national security demanded it. An America at war with Islam plays right into Al Qaeda’s recruitment spiel. This month’s incessant and indiscriminate orgy of Muslim-bashing is a national security disaster for that reason — Osama bin Laden’s “next video script has just written itself,” as the former F.B.I. terrorist interrogator Ali Soufan put it — but not just for that reason. America’s Muslim partners, those our troops are fighting and dying for, are collateral damage. If the cleric behind Park51 — a man who has participated in events with Condoleezza Rice and Karen Hughes, for heaven’s sake — is labeled a closet terrorist sympathizer and a Nazi by some of the loudest and most powerful conservative voices in America, which Muslims are not?

    Poor General Petraeus. Over the last week he has been ubiquitous in the major newspapers and on television as he pursues a publicity tour to pitch the war he’s inherited. But have you heard any buzz about what he had to say? Any debate? Any anything? No one was listening and no one cared. Everyone was too busy yelling about the mosque.

    It’s poignant, really. Even as America’s most venerable soldier returned from the front to valiantly assume the role of Willy Loman, the product he was selling was being discredited and discontinued by his own self-proclaimed allies at home.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/22/opinion/22rich.html?_r=1

  • grape_crush

    It is a completely valid comparison.
    .
    I must have missed your link showing the moderate Muslims involved with the Cordoba center were were also traveling around the country screaming, “USA is Satan” at the various Fourth of July and Veteran’s Day parades.
    .
    …and the majority of Americans…
    .
    If the majority of folks here in the comment section thought you were a hate-filled loony, would the right thing for us to do is take away your keyboard?
    .
    The only people who would call it invalid are the moonbats…
    .
    Again, thank you for proving Joe’s point.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Well, you can say “I am not as dumb as Groinhugger” an that does not mean that “I am not an idiot” since as dumb as Groinhugger is a very low bar, but, both Christianity and Islam are monotheistic (that means one god rather than many gods, Groney) and, therefore, one can not be both.
    .
    It is possible to brighter than you yet still be an idiot.

  • maverick2k9

    2 Questions:
    -
    Bill, How is that Project for the New American Century working out for ya?
    -
    Joe, why does this failed neo-con war-monger still get airtime?

  • cxyehonala

    President Obama is not a Muslim. He has betrayed the Muslim community again and again.

    Pesident Obama claims to support the building of the NY mosque, but changed his mind within 1 day when he ridiculed the Muslims for their stupidity and mocked them for their lack of wisdom for building the mosque. Is Polarizing Obama for or against the mosque?

    President Obama has repeatedly bowed and apologised to the Muslims for the war in Middle East. Yet he has sent more troops and bombers to kill more Muslim women, babies and children. The American liberals and media even conspire to award Polarizing Obama a Nobel Peace Prize for this killing spree, making President Obama the first and only Nobel Peace Prize winner to personally, directly, deliberately order the killing of innocent Muslim women, babies and children.Is Polarizing Obama for or against Islam ?

    As President Obama pretends to support the NY mosque, he ordered General Petraeus to announce that he is planning to prolong the Afghan war for more Muslim killing so that he would still be eligible for his second Nobel Peace Prize by hitting his killing quota for Muslim civilians. Worse, Polarizing Obama made the announcement during the Muslim holy month of Ramadan to deliberately spit at the Muslim community, just as he did last year when he also deliberately announced the troop increase for Afghanistan during the Muslim holy Ramadan period.

    President Obama and the Democrats are a bunch of despicable hypocrites and cowards, toying and abusing the feelings of Muslims for their selfish, short-sighted political gains.

  • hailtodavictors

    You were doing just fine patrick.

    Unitarian is not the same thing as Unitarian Universalism.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarianism

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism

    I spent an evening drinking beers with a Unitarian Universalist and she was happy to explain the difference to me.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “President Obama and the Democrats are a bunch of despicable hypocrites and cowards, toying and abusing the feelings of Muslims for their selfish, short-sighted political gains.”
    .
    I can’t take you seriously since any reasonable person would not call a war in Afghanistan or a war against Iraq a war against Muslims anymore than the European theater of WWII could be called a war of Episcopalians and Orthodox Christians against Catholics and Lutherans.
    .
    Italy with Germany (Catholic)
    France – controlled by Germany with most of it’s fighting forces on the German side (Catholic).
    Portugal, neutral (Catholic)
    Germany (Lutheran and Catholic)
    Sweden, neutral (Lutheran)
    Spain, neutral (Catholic)
    Ireland, neutral (Catholic)
    Greece, with allies (Orthodox Christian)
    Russia with allies (Orthodox Christian).
    .
    I will grant you that through chance and by choice during the colonial period of the 19th century and the post-Ottoman interwar period Muslim majority countries had gotten a raw deal as have almost every third world country, but, making a dispute between the US and one Muslim country is not a war against Muslims.
    .
    Afghanistan is one situation and Iraq is something we should have never started, but, it is not about Christian vs Muslim anymore than the European theater was anti-Catholic.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    Race relations, social integration, nativism, foreign policy, etc. etc. etc.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    And by “me” I am implying that bloc which ascribes to more paleoconservative principles and libertarianism. The general perspective of conservatism, at least on the progressive blogosphere, is one of warmongering neocons and backwater racists. These elements exist, to be sure. They are far too vocal and media is far too willing to give them both credibility and a platform. But, there is a large swath of of the conservative population that feels alienated by, obviously, the left, but also increasingly the political right. This leaves them in an unrepresented void, uncounted, unacknowledged, and disillusioned. We should speak out more, but sadly we do not.

  • newfreedomblog

    My heart bleeds for you at your dissapointment at our dear leader, Obama, cxyehonala.
    .
    I am sure it is disheartening to know someone, who at the very beginning of his Presidency went to Cairo to spew out words, just words………and make it seem like he was now a “friend” to Muslims around the world.
    .
    Unfortunately for you, he is not. The same that Obama is not a friend of his own people. The only thing Obama truly cares about is himself. He is one of the most narcisstic, egotistic Presidents this country has ever had to grace the halls of the grand White House.
    .
    Don’t feel alone, there are now well over 55% of Americans who have awakened from their drugged stupors to realize this joke of a man is now their President. We shall end his reign, beginning in 2010 his power will be cut by a 1000%. His agenda to destroy our great nation will end.
    .
    In 2012 you can bet, Obama bin Laden will scurry back into the hole he once came from. America will be restored once again.

  • rahonavis2

    Uh groenhagen 2 this is the full quote from your own source.
    “As the son of the Muslim father, Senator Obama was born a Muslim under Muslim law as it is universally understood. It makes no difference that, as Senator Obama has written, his father said he renounced his religion. Likewise, under Muslim law based on the Koran his mother’s Christian background is irrelevant.

    Of course, as most Americans understand it, Senator Obama is not a Muslim. He chose to become a Christian, and indeed has written convincingly to explain how he arrived at his choice and how important his Christian faith is to him.”

    The article is how may be seen as an apostate (someone who has left a particular religion) in the eyes of fundamentalist Muslim. So your proof that he is a Muslim is an article which states that he is a convert to Christianity. how important that faith is to him, and how by leaving the Muslim faith he was born into (like Judaism in reverse as being Jewish, at least according to some interpretations, is passed along the maternal line regardless of if you practice), which his father had renounced before Obama’s birth. The whole point of that article is as someone who abandoned the Muslim faith (even though he was never raised in it and never practiced it himself) Obama would be less likely to be well received by the Islamic world.

    So lets get this straight,he is raised in a secular household, later he converts to Christianity on his own, talks about how his faith influences him and has abandoned any ties to the faith of his paternal line (which were only there because his father was born a Muslim and thus any offspring his father had would be a technically Muslim, even after his father renounced his faith and despite the fact he never raised his children in accordance with the Muslim faith) makes him really a secret Islamist. Come on now man.

    Oh by the way according to Islam, everyone is born a Muslim
    “The Prophet Muhammad said, “No babe is born but upon Fitra (as a Muslim). It is his parents who make him a Jew or a Christian or a Polytheist.” (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6426)
    http://www.islam101.com/dawah/newBorn.htm

    So according to the strict interpretation of Islam, Obama, Sarah Palin, Benjamin Netanyahu, you, me, we are all born Muslims. Imagine that groenhagen, your a “secret Muslim too”.

  • newfreedomblog

    Calling bull-crap exactly what bull-crap is. Paleo-conservative / Libertarian? Give me a break.
    .
    You are nothing more than a Libertarian. Period. The only conservative ideal you have in your brain is to confront and oppose abortions. Couple that with a little protectionism of the Catholic Church and that wraps up your whole conservative idealism.
    .
    When you lie to yourself like you do Exiled, do you ever wonder if people honestly believes in your wacked out garbage?

  • nflfoghorn

    “Obama bin Laden [sic] will scurry back into the hole he once came from. America will be restored once again.”
    .
    So when, presumably, he gets sworn in AGAIN on 1/20/13 what will you say then? Surely you don’t advocate making the White House a hole, do you? And what’s this ‘restoration’ madness? Is it like ‘taking our country back’ or something? ‘Didn’t even know it was stolen! My gosh – shouldn’t we panic???

  • sacredh

    Exiled’s unflagging support of anything Israel wants to do makes him a conservative in my book.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    Ok, I’ll take the bait, Rusty. Explain to me where I have failed the conservative litmus test. As far as I know, the conservative political ideology speaks in no way to issues such as culture, so my heavily pro-Arab slant shouldn’t at all be an indictment. Nor does conservatism abandon any semblance of decency or humanity, so my opposition to American warmongering and Israeli crimes against humanity shouldn’t hint at any specific ideological slant on my part. Let’s see, what else do you generally take issue with? Universal health-care? Well, sure, limited government is a mainstay of conservative thought, however, conservatism does not object to a myriad of government services, so in this area, I believe the idea of society and government ensuring adequate access to medical services is compatible with conservatism. Feel free to add to this list…if you can. Just be sure to include a valid explanation. I’ll hear what you have to say on the matter, with the added caveat that the occasional deviation from ideological norms only suggests an ability to think practically for myself rather than seek to alter the landscape of reality to fit into my ideological outlook.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    Oh, sh*t. Thanks for pointing that out Sacred, I nearly forgot. Zionist through and through, I am ;)

  • kevin

    Exiled’s unflagging support of anything Israel wants to do makes him a conservative in my book.
    .
    I think you have him confused with someone else. His leanings on Middle East issues, if I’m remembering correctly, are pretty solidly anti-Israeli (or at least pro-Palestinian).

  • sacredh

    Exiled is every bit as liberal as he is Zionist.

  • kevin

    you didn’t provide an example of where the man-child himself has used the words, “I am not a Muslim.”
    .
    Since you seem to be too stupid to operate Google, fine, here is an example where the President of the United States used the phrase “I am not a Muslim.”
    .

    “First it is important to establish the facts. Here are the facts: I am not a Muslim and I never have been. I never attended a madrasa. I did not take my oath of office on a Koran. I am a committed Christian. I lived in Indonesia for four years as a child, where I attended secular schools. I took my oath of office on our family Bible.”

    .
    http://www.jnewswire.com/article/2355
    .
    Does that settle the issue in your mind, or would you like to move the goalposts one more time?
    .
    According to the New York Times, “As the son of the Muslim father, Senator Obama was born a Muslim under Muslim law as it is universally understood.”
    .
    No, that statement is not “according to the New York Times” anymore than your syphilitic ramblings on this blog are “according to Time magazine.” That’s an op-ed piece by a military historian — not exactly the most reliable source for the ins and outs of Islamic identity.
    .
    But keep flailing away. It’s adorable.

  • sacredh

    Chocolate oatmeal nobakes. Chocolate chip. Peanut butter. Gingersnaps.
    .
    Come over to the darkside. We have cookies.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    You were right the first time, Kevin. Anti-Israel sums my views up strikingly well. While I obviously feel for the Palestinian people, and strongly believe in their rights to self-determination and freedom from encroachment, I also believe them to be a people so culturally immersed in violence and hatred, though much of which is a product of their environment, that they are a people I fear have no future, no reasonable expectation of interacting with their neighbors. So, I wouldn’t necessarily say I am pro-Palestinian.

  • kevin

    Christ, Rusty, that was sad and pathetic even for you.
    .
    Anyone else picture Rusty as the political equivalent of Patton Oswalt’s character in “Big Fan”? Just a sad little shell of a man who writes up these master rants he’s so, so very proud of, and then trots off to write them on a blog or call up talk radio.

  • freeinpa

    “it’s good to learn that there are limits to Bill Kristol’s tactical skeevery.”

    JK If we could only find a limit to your stupidity it would be a full day

  • shepherdwong

    The general perspective of conservatism, at least on the progressive blogosphere, is one of warmongering neocons and backwater racists. These elements exist, to be sure. They are far too vocal and media is far too willing to give them both credibility and a platform.
    .
    I still think your complaint is with the policies and rhetoric that has been deployed by professional Republicans, not any false framing by the left. Basically, you and the rest of the rank-and-file have been played. But don’t blame us, were not trying to false-frame Republicans, we’re trying to warn you.

  • deconstructiva

    Come over to the darkside. We have cookies.
    We have biscuits too.
    .

    .
    “Just the biscuits then please, Polly.”

  • textee

    Leftist loon Joe Klein asserts: “Here are some conservative principles I admire: Foreign policy realism, budget discipline and a belief in (carefully regulated) markets as the best vehicles for delivering prosperity and even some forms of government services.”

    Translation: Here are some “conservative” (i.e., non-conservative) principles that Klein admires: Anti-American foreign policy predicated on the world’s most virulent America haters determing the actions of the United States (or what Klein calls “realism”), higher and more confiscatory taxes (or what Klein calls “budget discipline”) and socialism (or what Klein calls “carefully regulated” markets).

  • sacredh

    deconstructiva, I start a 5 day weekend Thursday morning. My wife’s a nightowl and doesn’t get up until noon. When I get home Thursday morning, I’m going to make Christmas cookies to surprise her. For our anniversary earlier this month I put up a Christmas tree, cranked the AC up and we watched Frosty the Snowman. It was 90 degrees outside.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    No one’s played me, I swore off the GOP as soon as the neocon coup d’etat. I’m far from a rank-and-file. Go ahead and bash the GOP all you want. My issue is very much with the Republican establishment, but it’s also with the media for giving a voice to the most extreme of “conservative” voices and with the progressive left for encouraging the nonsense. You know full well that conservative thought is a majority opinion in this country. Yet, you continue to dismiss conservatives as that lunatic fringe of 20%.

  • 3xfire3

    freeinpa,
    .
    Could not have said it better myself.,

  • sacredh

    Exiled, I know you’re not addressing me, but I would disagree. I think the majority is moderate and sick of both extremes.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    I’ll have to parse that a bit. Is that moderate or moderately-conservative? Is moderate, in and of itself, antithetical to conservatism? Again, let me clarify, we’re not using “conservative” as synonymous with “neocon, GOP extremism.” We’re using conservative as conservative, i.e. laize fare industry-regulation, limited governmental encroachment in day-to-day individuality, somewhat isolationist foreign policy, etc. etc. etc.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    At the very least, non-interventionism, not necessarily isolationism…

  • kija1

    The “terrorists” right to build a mosque, anywhere they want to build a mosque, is only subject to local ordinances. Sensitivity does not really count for s**t under the American constitution (the same one that Billy Crystal, and the other Neo-conderthals seem to be very big on).

    If you have any respect for the US constitution, you should go out there and support the constitutionally guaranteed right we have to the free exercise of religion.

    Please don’t bring up 911 or multiculturalism or any or that other bulls**t, that is being used to divide right, and left. They have a right to build a mosque, and your feeling about it don’t really matter.

  • michaelfury
  • shepherdwong

    “You know full well that conservative thought is a majority opinion in this country. Yet, you continue to dismiss conservatives as that lunatic fringe of 20%.”
    .
    Nonsense. Only around 40% of Americans even self-identify as “conservative”, which is only “conservative thought” in the sense that there often isn’t much thought involved. When you ask about specific policy issues, most Americans actually express liberal thinking. And, as your own description of “conservative” politics lays bare, the term is practically meaningless at this point, except to describe mindless, vitriolic opposition to Democrats and liberals.
    .
    I admit, I’m having a hard time separating the two-thirds of Republicans who think the President is a socialist, the 57 percent who believe he’s a Muslim and the 24 percent who say “he may be the Antichrist” from the “fringe” of the party.
    .
    http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/52602

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    Perhaps if you separated Republicans from conservatives, you’d better understand. You can’t list off poll (reliable?) numbers concerning radical elements of the GOP as proof of the radical elements of conservatism. Just as the Democratic Party hardly speaks for true liberals (it’s to the right), the GOP hardly speaks for true conservatives (it’s far to their right).

  • edismeiamhe

    I thought this was going to be about Kristol.

    Turns out its all about Joe Kline, and not about whether Obama is a card carrying, prayer rug praying, Muslim.

    Well, as Nixon would say, “Let me say this about that”..if Obama is not a Muslim…he’ll do, till the real thing comes along.

    He is certainly not a Christian with the usual belief conotations that label implies.

    Listen to his beliefs about Christ from a 2004 interview:

    “Jesus is an historical figure for me, and he’s also a bridge between God and man, in the Christian faith, and one that I think is powerful precisely because he serves as that means of us reaching something higher.

    And he’s also a wonderful teacher. I think it’s important for all of us, of whatever faith, to have teachers in the flesh and also teachers in history”

    The Son of God, Virgin Birth, crucified for sins, rose from the dead…none of these apparently register in Obama’s basic thoughts about Christ

    Isn’t it strange…his views of Christ fit perfectly with the Muslim beliefs about Christ…what an odd coincidence.

  • sacredh

    Exiled, I would say that moderate is a combination of both party’s views and a willingness to go with whichever party comes closest to the middle ground. I know many see that as centrist and it may very well be the case. I feel Obama ran at the center, got elected because of it and p!ssed off many of us liberals because we thought he’d run as the center and govern from the left when he got in. His heart may be liberal, but he’s not acting liberal.
    .
    I think it’s strange that he’s viewed as a socialist or a liberal. I feel that I’m a liberal and he’s not doing what I think a liberal would do. I also feel that the current republican party views him as a leftist simply because they’ve moved so far to the right that the middle looks left to them and the real left looks like commies.
    .
    I’m as guilty as many on the right in the labeling game. The Tea Party looks like rascist neo-Nazis to me.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    Sacred,
    I don’t disagree about Obama. He’s certainly not a far-left activist, though he has liberal tendencies to be sure. He’s a pragmatism above all else, in my opinion. Though he has a much more expansive view of the role of government than I am comfortable with, socialism doesn’t even register on my radar when I analyze his policies.
    .
    I know the polls may say otherwise, but I doubt as many people honestly think he is a ‘socialist’ as is reported. I think if those numbers are correct, it speaks more to a lack of understanding of political theory and a pervasive susceptibility to political marketing/framing, i.e. propaganda, than it suggests ubiquitous extremism on the right.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    You are, how shall I say, an idiot.

  • shepherdwong

    Perhaps if you separated Republicans from conservatives, you’d better understand.”
    .
    I understand well enough to know that there’s no reason separate Republicans from “conservatives”. Depending on what malfeasance Republicans are currently up to, “conservatives” may be loath to admit it but they’re reliable Republican voters, just as few self-identified liberals vote other than Democrat. Again, the problem is that professional Republicans destroyed the Republican brand through “conservative” policies of hostility to the civil rights of women, people of color and gays and regressive tax and regulatory policies, along with their arrogant and reckless foreign policy. There’s no need at all to blame the left.

  • sacredh

    Exiled, I don’t trust the polls either. The way the questions are asked, how they’re framed and even the order in which they’re asked can change the poll results and give a different picture than what people actually believe. It’s really hard for me to gauge the mood of people outside of the area I live in. It’s semi-rural, very religious and conservative. Obama barely won in my county in 2008 and I think McCain might have had a chance if Palin hadn’t been on the ticket. A woman on the ticket didn’t make the difference, a crazy woman was the topper. Even a few die hard conservatives I know didn’t vote at the top of the ticket because they thought she was a joke (if not damgerous). Palin did have her fans here, but she didn’t bring in any from the middle. The ones that liked her wanted her as President.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    Depending on what malfeasance Republicans are currently up to, “conservatives” may be loath to admit it but they’re reliable Republican voters, just as few self-identified liberals vote other than Democrat.
    .
    This is a valid point. Most voters will, however begrudgingly, ultimately take sides with the party that most identifies with their views, the lesser of two evils if you will. And, of course, the GOP is far more conservative than it is liberal. Yet, this does not suggest that it adequately represents conservatism. I, for one, no longer vote Republican, but rather candidates such as Bob Barr if I feel the urge to vote at all.
    .
    Again, the problem is that professional Republicans destroyed the Republican brand through “conservative” policies of hostility to the civil rights of women, people of color and gays and regressive tax and regulatory policies, along with their arrogant and reckless foreign policy.
    .
    I’d largely agree with this assessment so long as your use of quotation marks around the word ‘conservative’ suggests that you do not posit that these policies are conservative in nature.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    Rusty? Nothing?

  • chohkmah

    Yet another wonderfully verbose proof of Mr. Klein’s central point: the willful corruption of what were once quite honorable conservative principles…

    I’m waiting for:

    G.H.W. Bush – soft leftist with socialist/communist leanings (i.e. new taxes)

    Ronald Reagan – spineless leftist with ties to known communists, and a collaborator with a communist regime.

    George Washington – leftist terrorist, traitor, protocommunist

    Don’t disappoint me, Right Wing.

  • Ike Jakson

    Ditto

  • nflfoghorn

    ‘Guess that part BO described about Christ being his Lord and Savior went over your head. Not unlike most truth, BTW.

  • groenhagen2

    kevin the simpleton:

    “http://www.jnewswire.com/article/2355″

    Do you have a better source for this? How about ther New York Times, CNN, Fox News, or another news outlet based in the States. Apparently, you looked long and hard and could come up with just an obscure, foreign publication.

  • nflfoghorn

    Might I add it’s mighty funny for you guys to rip BO for his faith when Ronald the Raygun and his wife famously used psychics and Ouija boards to determine the future and rarely attended church themselves. Do you have to be old, conservative and Caucasian to have the “right” faith?

  • groenhagen2

    fatpat:


    First, those most familiar with NYC, the constitution, the group lead by a Brooklyn born and raised Imam and their message supported the mosque.”

    Sixty-four percent of New Yorkers oppose the WTC mosque.

  • nflfoghorn

    Loved him in “When Harry Met Sally” and “City Slickers.” Oh wait, what?

  • nflfoghorn

    It’s pretty ironic, apr, that people are making a mountain out of a mosque while knowing deep-down that the new tower will have to have space set aside for people of all faiths to worship. Even those dang Muslims, of which I have a brother who’s one. I hate his guts (not really ;) )

  • shepherdwong

    …as your use of quotation marks around the word ‘conservative’ suggests that you do not posit that these policies are conservative in nature.
    .
    You read me right. There is nothing conservative about what professional Republicans have been practicing in the name of “conservatism.”

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    I concur. But, yet, you just quipped awhile ago that you cannot separate Republicans from conservatives, so which is it? I have no qualms with anti-Republican diatribes, but I see nothing sinister about the conservative philosophy.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    Wrong!
    .
    That would be New York State which stretches almost five hundred miles North of Ground Zero.
    .
    “LOWER MANHATTAN — Manhattan voters support plans for mosque near Ground Zero, though residents of the outer boroughs are opposed, a new poll found.

    The Quinnipiac University poll, released Thursday morning, found that 46 percent of Manhattanites support the 13-story mosque and community center, called Cordoba House. Thirty-six percent of Manhattan voters oppose the proposal and 18 percent are undecided.”
    .
    http://dnainfo.com/20100701/manhattan/manhattanites-support-mosque-near-ground-zero-poll-finds
    .
    According to my poll, 98% of people who see you here in the Swamp think that you suffer from severe brain damage.

  • dbvanhorn

    the question is not one of freedom of religion, but rather the appropriateness of this particular mosque, it’s leaders, and their seeming lack of regard for the fact that members of their religion hated the ‘American’ way of life so much they conceived a plan to fly commercial airliners into buildings a mere few blocks away. No one denies their ‘right’ but we do question their sincerity….

  • ohiolibb

    What’s your point, scumball? We don’t put the constitution up for a popular vote in this country. Unless, of course, we’re republicans.

  • releggneh

    You prove that he isn’t !! He attends Ramadan but not the day of prayer. His given name is Barry Soetero but he goes by Barack Husein Obama. Don’ t sound Christian to me! He is sympathetic to all muslims. He goes to a christian college & covers up our god. He wants the terrorists tried in our civilian courts so they can get on the stand & bash america more than he has. He goes to Muslim countries, and apologizes, He sides with building a Mosque where the plane hit the building, but no memorial built for the ones we lost when we were attacked! I think i have more reasons to believe he is than you do to prove he’s not.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “No one denies their ‘right’ but we do question their sincerity.”
    .
    This is the same Brooklyn born and raised Imam who worked with the Bush administration.
    .
    I see no basis for questioning anybody except for those who know nothing about NYC but have a very strong opinion against it.
    .
    It is a question of this: a mellow branch of Islam lead by a Brooklyn born and raised Imam who met with the Bush Administration puts out an olive branch by replacing two smaller downtown Mosques by buying an unused fifteen story building not in sight of, not en route to Ground Zero using fourteen of those stories to be open to Christians and Jews in addition to Muslims as well as any other religion for interfaith dialog and right wingers are split between not defending the First Amendment and wishing the Federal government to stop it and other who think that it is a strange Trojan horse of some kind.
    .
    Why is does anybody who neither works nor lives in Manhattan care about this at all?

  • maverick2k9

    In response, a quote worth repeating:

    I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ – MK Gandhi

  • releggneh

    Have any of you people read up on the Imam that is in charge of getting this Mosque built>\? Do you know where the funding is coming from? He is over in the Middle East right now. Pelosi wants all the opposers investigated to who is financing the anti mosque commercials but no one is asking about the financing to get this built? What ever happened to what we believed in, 9 years ago? We will never forget! but yet, instead of building a memorial for the ones we lost, we will let muslims build a mosque where the plane hit the building! If this Imam is such a bridge builder, when he sees all the emotions that is involved, why wouldn’t he pick another location? He won’t even talk about it!! For the ones that lost loved ones. I am truly sorry, for what you are going through. As a 100 percent american, I WILL NEVER FORGET!!! you can call me a bigot,or whatever. But, this man is not for bridge building, he is trying to make this a shrine in our own country where the acknowledge killing thousands of our own!!! You people that support this mosque, have gotten weak. How many mosques have you heard about getting blown up? THis is a perfect excuse for them to do it again. I am telling you, you need to look at the Imam’s background!!

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Could not have said it better myself.,”
    .
    3X,
    .
    Thank you for not saying things for yourself and not adding onto the piles of muck in the Swamp.

  • http://erieangel.wordpress.com erieangel

    I was raised Catholic, though I left the Church before I was confirmed, and my views, beliefs are pretty much the same as what you quoted.
    .
    Virgin birth? That was an invention of the Roman Catholic Church as they were converting the European pagens.
    .
    Son of God? Aren’t we all children of God? If we are all the children of God then how can Jesus be the one and only son of God? Christians contradict themselves with that one.
    .
    Crucified for sin… I’ll give you that one. But it was Jesus’ own Jewish people who were directly responsible for his crucifixion. And that happened to have been a very popular form of capital punishment in those days.
    .
    Rose from the dead? Prove it. And not with some Bible story that says it happened. Give me verifiable proof that Jesus actually rose from the dead and it wasn’t his spirit they were all seeing.
    .
    Jesus was an historical figure and such an extraordinary teacher that an entire religion was built upon his life and teachings. To accept that much about him is not anti-Christian, its acceptance of a truth many Bible thumpers don’t even want to look at.
    .

  • stuartzechman

    I would have phrased this differently, but
    .
    Just as the Democratic Party hardly speaks for true liberals (it’s to the right), the GOP hardly speaks for true conservatives (it’s far to their right).
    .
    is very well put, neorationalist86.
    .
    Thanks for this interesting discussion, folks.

  • maverick2k9

    You sound like a raving lunatic.. Is that you, Osama?

  • stuartzechman

    Wow.

    No, that statement is not “according to the New York Times” anymore than your syphilitic ramblings on this blog are “according to Time magazine.” That’s an op-ed piece by a military historian — not exactly the most reliable source for the ins and outs of Islamic identity.
    .
    But keep flailing away. It’s adorable.

    Lovely.
    .
    Seriously, that’s just beautiful rhetoric, Kevin.
    .
    What a pleasure to read.

  • kevin

    I was trying to call out Colbert’s line about Glenn Beck, but it looks like the original was “the insane ramblings of a syphilitic brain.” My apologies.

  • ohiolibb

    My issue is very much with the Republican establishment
    -
    You and me both. And the problem isn’t as much with the media portraying the extreme fringe, it’s that the extreme fringe is now running the R party. There’s no way to cover politics without stepping in the RW scum.

  • kevin

    On a slightly related note, I highly recommend tonight’s episode of the Daily Show.
    .
    They had a clip of Dan Senor on “Fox and Friends” this morning, where the crew spent a great deal of time talking about the Kingdom Foundation in Saudi Arabia, claiming it was a force for funding terrorism and hinting darkly that it was behind the Burlington Coat Factory Community Center.
    .
    As Jon Stewart noted, the Kingdom Foundation’s leader — whom the F&F twits were careful never to name — is none other than Saudi Prince Al-Waleed bin Talal, who just so happens to be the largest stockholder in Fox News after the Murdoch family.
    .
    These idiots were engaging in a game of guilt by association in which the evil, evil, evil man behind the entire “Ground Zero mosque” conspiracy was … their own boss.
    .
    The Daily Show correspondents then engaged in a debate over whether Fox News was truly evil, or just simply very very stupid.
    .
    And the closing clip — Fox and Friends condeming Al-Waleed bin Talal as an evil terrorist mastermind, and a quick cut to Neil Cavuto interviewing him and calling him a wonderful philanthropist. Classic.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Wow. Every time I think I’ve encountered the most toxic personality imaginable on Swampland, someone comes along to prove me wrong.

  • kevin

    Is that you, Osama?
    .
    Let’s see … he’s trying to convince us that there’s a global conflict between America and all Muslims everywhere, so yeah, he sounds just like Osama.

  • stuartzechman

    Michael Crowley isn’t that bad.
    .
    Remember Jay Carney?

  • kevin

    Are you kidding me?
    .
    First, all the “I am a Christian” quotes weren’t good enough because he didn’t say “I am not a Muslim,” and now the “I am not a Muslim” quote is not good enough because it comes from a foreign paper?
    .
    Here’s the campaign website:
    http://my.barackobama.com/page/invite/christian
    .
    Here’s mailers they sent out:
    http://muse-musings.blogspot.com/2008/01/obama-omg-i-am-not-muslim.html
    .
    You said he’d never denied it. He has, in countless ways. Period.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    Shep,

    You do realize that this has been quite possibly the most civil discussion you and I have ever held, yes?

  • http://elvisberg.wordpress.com Elvis Elvisberg

    Hilarious, Stuart.
    -
    And let’s not forget Dick Armey…

  • michaelfury

    “Foreign policy realism”

    ————————————

    http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2009/05/11/the-gas-must-flow/

  • ejr1953

    I feel this issue is just another one of those that the “powers to be” have drummed up to create “tension” among Americans and keep us from paying attention to the workings of the folks who actually control things, the super-rich. They control the corporations, have engineered a system where we pay the taxes to support this wonderful country we live in, even more wonderful for them, as they pay hardly any taxes on their income. As long as they can manipulate the media into blowing these controversies way out of proportion, and can manipulate the politicians into thinking they’ll benefit from this “tension”, we’ll continue to see issues like this make it to the headlines.

  • kbanginmotown

    All: great thread!
    .
    re:“Just as the Democratic Party hardly speaks for true liberals (it’s to the right), the GOP hardly speaks for true conservatives (it’s far to their right).”
    .
    Need to take issue with this comment. I agree that the GOP may be a bit to the right of conservatives on *social* issues (or maybe not).
    .
    However, on *economic* issues, the GOP’s willingness to run budget deficits throughout the 2000′s puts it way out of step with both liberals and conservatives who want to pay (and not overpay) for responsible government.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “He wants the terrorists tried in our civilian courts so they can get on the stand & bash america more than he has.”
    .
    1) if you respect out country to much, why didn’t you use a capital A in America?
    .
    2) Find any time Obama bashed America?
    .
    3)Obviously Obama wants the terrorists to stand trial so that they can internationally make fools of themselves, have the entire world know that these are guilty people and despicable psychopaths who were given every chance to prove their innocence.
    .
    Instead you right wingers like hiding everything opening the door wide for the Muslim world to build conspiracy theories and to recruit more Al Qada members.
    .
    More US secrecy = more propaganda for Al Qada = more Al Qada members = more dead Americans = more right wingers elected to office.
    .
    I very strongly dislike it when Americans are slaughtered, but, as a Republican, since it means more victories for your party, I am sure, releggneh every time Americans get slaughtered you are dancing in the streets thinking of more Republican victories.

  • lbjack

    “Well, as Nixon would say, ‘Let me say this about that’”

    No, that’s a famous JFK-ism.

    If you you wanted to use Nixon rhetorically, then you might have said something like, “Hearing Obama say he’s not Muslim is like hearing Nixon say he’s not a crook.” Of course, Nixon really wasn’t a crook, and I believe Obama really isn’t a Muslim. Now, if the objection to Obama is that, Muslim or not, he gives aid and comfort to our enemies the Muslims, then your quip that “he’ll do until the real thing comes along” is on point.

    As to Obama’s not conforming to your particular orthodoxy about who is or isn’t a Christian, that’s as ridiculous as Obama et al. presuming to say what is or is not Islam (jihadis, for example) or to accept the “Religion of Peace” claim in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

    A religion is what it does, and worldwide terror is what lslam does. As one New Yorker said, “9/11 tells me as much about Islam as I need to know.” It’s been estimate that 7% of Muslims carry radical, jihadi views and support the terrorists at least morally. That’s around 80 million members of “one of the world’s great religions”. So the pious blatherings of Joe Klein about the Constitution are beside the point. This is not a feelgood exercise, a chance for the Joe Kleins and Michael Bloombergs and Obamas and the liberal blogosphere to parade their Constitutional virtue.

    Tolerance is the cheapest virtue, because it’s the virtue of doing nothing. It allows its claimants to show off their righteousness with having to do anything. Seven years after 9/11, we elect a president named Hussein. Nine years after 9/11 we permit a Muslim “center” to go up at the site of a monstrous atrocity committed by Muslims. What’s wrong with this picture? Those who wrap themselves in the Constitution to cloak their moral cowardice and sloth would say, “Nothing,” and, as a way of preening, label those who see a problem as bigots.

  • shepherdwong

    …you just quipped awhile ago that you cannot separate Republicans from conservatives…
    .
    It’s not up to me. If most self-proclaimed “conservatives” haven’t separate themselves from the radical extremism of Republicans – as you seem to have done – what am I to think?

  • southernbell49

    Joe, your type of “conservatism” never existed. What you describe is known as being a “Rockefella” Republican or perhaps an “Eisenhower” Republican.

    In other words, a moderate GOPer. While some of this breed continuted to exist after Reagan took office their members have sadly dwindled and now many are known as “Independents (Charlie Crist for example).

  • rdw56

    You left out highly profitable and influencial. It’s such a joy to conservatives to see how Fox gets under the liberal skin.

  • rdw56

    Pat,

    As a political issue this is a disaster for Obama, Liberals and the MSM. How cool is the irony of the preachers of tolerance relying solely on charges of racism and bigotry to make their point. What frauds. Rasmussen has 77% of likely voters oppose the GZM. Electorially that’s a disaster. You have Harry Reid and Howard Dean saying it s/b moved and Dick Durbin and Joe Klein calling them racists for saying so. That’s called a circular firing squad. Obama, the super communicator pours gasoline on a simmering fire causing a bonfire and humiliating his groupies in the MSM.

    This story has everything and it’s not going away. Joe Klein is enraged and baffled Fox keeps gaining viewers and influence while the MSM keeps losing them. Maybe it’s because Fox doesn’t call it’s viewers racists every time there’s a difference of opinion.

  • dankaduna

    Once again Joe gives us his distorted vision of the world as seen through the Klein bottle.

    Let me help you out here, Joe, and explain why
    the free exercise of religion and respect for private property are not a promising agenda for progressives.

    Progressives have a long history of being against religion and private property, and a proven track record of working actively to undermine these things.

    So to come out in favor of them now is not only simply not credible, it is laughable. It’s like a fox saying he loves chickens.

    This kind of spin just isn’t going to work in the mid-term elections.

    Joe and his liberal ilk are so far out of touch with reality and mainstream thought that it makes one wonder if they were even born and raised on the same planet as the rest of us.

  • abbydelabbey

    ejr1953, thank you! You have hit the nail on the head —

    Unfortunately most Americans seem oblivious….

  • avrwc2

    A Jew is a Jew is a Jew but Billy Kristol is not that. He’s a little ZioNazi and he’s simply saying what ZioNazis are supposed to say to further their cause.

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “As a political issue this is a disaster for Obama, Liberals and the MSM.”
    .
    So, you are telling me that voters in Florida, North Carolina, North Dakota, Oregon or even upstate New York (which spans over 400 miles North of Ground Zero) will vote for or against a congressman or senator based upon their opinion about the appropriateness of a building in Manhattan.
    .
    New Yorkers are infamous for acting as if there is no human life East of Queens or West of the Hudson River, but, in reality, this will have no impact on the midterm elections just as Terry Shavio, the feel-good case of the day in 2005 (I am right-to-life as well as anti-death penalty, but the woman had brain death years earlier and would never have a chance one in a trillion of being anything other than a vegetable).
    .
    By carefully choosing photos which belied her condition Republicans were sure that this would lead them in 2006 to the party of morality. Instead it lead to the electoral slaughter of the Republican Party.
    .
    Now, ignoring or distorting nearly all facts about this case, also out of congressional reach, Republicans are sure that they will lead this to election day.
    .
    No flipping way!

  • http://patricksartor.wordpress.com patricksartor

    “Progressives have a long history of being against religion and private property, and a proven track record of working actively to undermine these things.”
    .
    Wow, you are distorted!
    .
    Let me correct that for you:
    .
    “Progressives have a long history of being favoring a separation of church and state just like this and protecting private property from pollution and the like through environmental laws, and a proven track record of working actively to promote these things.”
    .
    Actually, I would say that this is a classic liberal issue: government is there to protect people from abuse by other individuals and not there abuse unpopular religions or attack those making unpopular speech.

  • http://dalehendon.wordpress.com dalehendon

    I’m not opposed to the Ground Zero mosque; I’m opposed to all mosques regardless of their location. I think Winston had it right when he wrote: “How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live…The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities…but the influence of the religion paralyzes the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa…and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome.” Sir Winston Churchill in The River War, Vol. II, pp. 248-50, London; Longman, Green & co., 1899
    I guess that makes me an Islamophobe; so be it. The imam Rauf wants to introduce Sharia law and make the U.S. “Sharia compliant” which is the “way” dictated by following the examples of the life of their prophet Mohamed. If you’ve ever read a politically incorrect history of Mohamed’s life you will know you don’t want to follow it. He was the one who “invented” burying women alive if they displeased him, or stoning them to death, and at one point told his son that Allah had spoken to him the night before and had decreed that he (Mohamed) should marry his son’s bride, not his son. And he did. Oh, and he killed a lot of people too.

    And look at how people live in countries that are “Sharia compliant”. And just to add a twist of irony, Islamic law does not separate church and state; quite the opposite. And they still call it one of the world’s “great religions”. No thanks!

  • http://dalehendon.wordpress.com dalehendon

    There is a YouTube video in which Obama talks about his Muslim heritage, how much it means to him, and his feelings and experiences as a child being educated in the Muslim system in Indonesia. He tells how much he appreciates the tenants of Islam and that he is a Muslim.

    His words not mine. Take a look for yourself.
    Youtube: Obama says he is a Muslim.
    What I find so pedestrian about all the blogs here is the continued political left and right banging each other with their trite and tried labels, standard rhetoric designed and developed to impeach the target of the “flaming”. Most people read what supports their position, most find comfort in seeing their perconceived notions supported by others. All this leads to a dictomy which makes one wonder what reality are most of you opposed to. Your realities seem constructed of hormones and hyperbole rather than intellect, honesty, or logic. A pox on all your houses much as we have a pox in our WH.

  • http://liberalspin.wordpress.com darkskinned

    When a WH spokesperson has to come out and “clarify” what a president’s religion is, you know you are in deep sh!t as an administration.

    Besides, Obama’s religion is not the biggest problem for the country, his policies are!

  • shepherdwong

    Paranoia disorders are notoriously hard to treat but, regardless, you should still seek professional help.

  • http://stan0301.wordpress.com stan0301

    You may have your choice–Obama is either a Muslim or a lier–All you need do is Google “Obama says he is a Muslim” and you will find MANY videos–you can watch his lips move–where he plainly and distinctly says he is a Muslim–Muslim?–Lier??? My personal take would be both–I mean the man doesn’t even know how old his father is. And just about daily we are presented with another HUGE hole in his history.

  • http://stan0301.wordpress.com stan0301

    It is no more inappropriate to be an Islamophobe now than to have been a Naziphobe during WW II–We are at war–it is a war they declared–Churchill always had a way with words.

  • shepherdwong

    …you will find MANY videos–you can watch his lips move–where he plainly and distinctly says he is a Muslim–Muslim?–Lier?
    .
    Liar.

  • http://markomd.wordpress.com markomd

    I consider it a rare event, but for once, Bill Kristol is acting like a mensch and speaking truth to power when he affirms that President Obama is not a Muslim.

    Thank you, sir. You may, given enough time, actually grow up!

  • russell247

    “The free exercise of religion and respect for private property are not a promising agenda for progressives”

    I read this to mean that Kristol thinks that this is not a great area for progressives, because (he believes) they don’t support these values, so to suddenly be waving this flag is not a promissing agenda for them.

    I don’t think you can find a single American that doesn’t support these rights, so trying to paint the progressives as some kind of psuedo commies just doesn’t work.

  • stewartiii

    NewsBusters| Joe Klein’s Latest Adventure in Missing the Point: Taking Bill Kristol Out of Context
    http://newsbusters.org/blogs/ken-shepherd/2010/08/24/joe-kleins-adventures-missing-point

  • http://lapapanzi.wordpress.com lapapanzi

    OLA

    OBAMA NOT MUSLIN———-IS A REPTILION

  • http://jimfromla.wordpress.com jimfromla

    I can’t understand why so many people want to respond to Exiled At Home. I do love the collapse of the right wing’s political party.

    But to blame it on the progressives? What a child. Can’t come to grips with the fact that all this “Muslim Distraction” is promoted on an hourly basis from Limbaugh, Hannity, Wilkow, Sullivan…..actually every single nationally syndicated right winger (not to mention Fox News….but I will :) . And it’s on tape! I love it.

  • http://jimfromla.wordpress.com jimfromla

    “Here are some conservative principles I admire: Foreign policy realism, budget discipline and a belief in (carefully regulated) markets as the best vehicles for delivering prosperity and even some forms of government services.”

    Um…excuse me but those are…well the foundation of the progressive politics of Thom Hartmann (as an example).

    Boy are the right winger in trouble in this country. They can’t even THINK of taking responsibility for the damage resulting from their policies.

  • http://dalehendon.wordpress.com dalehendon

    YouTube – Obama Admits He Is A Muslim.mht

    If you have any doubts about Obama being a Muslim
    check out the link above and hear what he has to say.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    Jim,
    Perhaps you should re-read what I wrote. I never said progressive are to blame for the collapse of the GOP. I said progressives are, in part, perfectly content to push a simplistic caricature of conservatism. I also placed much blame on neocon lunatics, for their association with conservatism, and paleo-conservatives such as myself for not pushing back as well as we should. But, as is often the case, you’ve confused partisanship with ideology, letting your lethargic brain intertwine the usage and meaning of “conservative” and “Republican.” Rather than take a few seconds to register what you read, you let your reflexive hostility take over, at which point you began to hurl invective at the me. Who’s the child again?

  • http://jimfromla.wordpress.com jimfromla

    And furthermore, the right wingers who claim to be separate from their Political Party refuse to acknowledge the Two Party System. All very Constitutional and such. They’re such bunk! These children refuse to take responsibility for the Right Wing Propaganda Machine. I could offer good advice on how to get past their morass, but why?

    I just love watching them all flop about with their simplistic, moronic self definitions from Limbaugh, Wilkow, Levine…etc.

  • Exiled_At_Home (formerly Neo)

    Are you honestly implying that everyone in America must choose a side? We are all either beholden to the Democrats or the Republicans? The Two-Party System, while of course constitutional, is a f*cking blight on this country, the cause of constant gridlock and polarization, extremism, and reflexive opposition to the ‘other.’ That you would adore such a flawed system is indication enough that your brain doesn’t function on a high enough level to warrant continued interaction on my part. Cheerio.

  • kimjc01

    Nicely put!

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