Are One-Quarter of Americans Freakin’ Morons?

As I posted in response to your previous piece on the subject
(on my blog: http://www.adamjcopeland.com/2010/08/19/barack-obama-is-not-a-muslim-well-it-depends-who-you-ask/ ) I see three possibilities.

1. I live a too sheltered life and do not interact with the 1/4 to 1/5.

2. Perhaps the poll connects someone to allowing folks to voice racist thoughts in a more culturally approved way.

3. I disagree, however, that Obama’s religious affiliation does not matter. It matter very much to me.

For further explanations, see that piece:

http://www.adamjcopeland.com/2010/08/19/barack-obama-is-not-a-muslim-well-it-depends-who-you-ask/

Just for you Amy. Enjoy!!
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Either willfully ignorant, or bigoted, or both. Franklin Graham is in the “both” category.

Religion is not a genetic trait, nor an infection, as Graham seems to think.

To answer your question, Amy, yes – see above.

And what if he is muslim? Muslims, Arab and Persian Americans fought and died for this country. You are dishonoring their families with your attempt to paint Obama as unamerican.
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Here comes the typical right wing response, “I am not a racist, I just hate muslims, mexicans, and blacks.”
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Who cares what religion he is I personally would prefer a President who was completely non religious it is just incomprehensible to me that anyone today takes anything in any religious dogma as literal… seriously all sides of the big “R” affiliation are scary the prophets of yesterday are the paranoid schizophrenics of today John the Baptist would receive an SSI check today and absolutely no one would take him seriously.

Education in this country needs serious re-structuring

Willfully so. They revel in it. It is how they get attention.

http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2010/08/19/barack-obama-is-not-a-muslim/
Amy, I know this link to your column from just yesterday has already been posted to this thread. I am just wondering if you read what your own opinions.
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Yesterday you were stating since entering the White House Obama has been relatively silent about his faith. He doesn’ t attend services in DC.
You felt this led to the perception that he was not a practicing Christian and that allows his enemies to define his character. Then you opined that the White House should offset this perception by the President displaying his “real” Christian faith.
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Now you are saying he need not respond to the misperception. Which is it?
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When will you analyze the fact that Fox, talk radio, and Republican candidates have fostered this gruesome bigotry. Posted below is a link to documentation.
What is this all about? Bigotry. Obama is black, therefore an “other”. It is easy to manipulate the intolerant.

Yes, it is the practice bordering on child abuse of indoctrination.

http://mediamatters.org/research/201008200024
Here is some of the examples of the continual smear campaign to heighten hate and fear.
How long did the traditional enable the swift boat smear? This is worse.

If religious affiliation is genetic, I can only be happy I wasn’t born to the likes of the Grahams.

Point to anything I have said in posting a video that Obama is “unAmerican”.
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Oh heck, that’s right you can’t.
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Go away………..we need better liberal trolls.

Rusty, did you even watch this? Unless you count editing, nowhere does Obama admit he is a muslim. There’s even a disclaimer at the beginning of the video that admits that this video does not prove Obama is a muslim, or that he ever admitted he is a Muslim. Instead, you have a great of innuendo, paranoia, and general stupid.

“Are One-Quarter of Americans Freakin’ Morons?”

At the very least. The most disturbing thing is that this country has elevated the “freakin’ morons” into positions of power. Sarah rolls her eyes when a woman says she is a teacher. A TEACHER deserves to be held in ridicule? A person that educates our young is held in contempt? There is serious discussion that our President might be the anti-Christ? We live in sad times indeed.
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Ignorant is the new intelligent. Loud is the new thoughtful. Angry is the new considerate. Can’t make a logical argument? Turn beet red and yell a slogan. Defending rights is so yesterday. Limit people’s rights. Elite doesn’t mean you’ve worked your way to the top, it means we have to work to drag them down. Science is voodoo. We’re screwed.

It’s not a question of ‘faith,’ but rather a matter of patrilineality. BHO Sr. was a Muslim–a lapsed one (heavy drinker and whatnot), but a Muslim, nonetheless. Under Shari’a law, this makes Obama Jr. a Muslim. Obama may not believe that the Qur’an was the final revelation of God, instead professing faith in Christianity…which would make him an apostate–punishable by DEATH under Islamic law. From Obama’s perspective, I’m not sure which is the way to go.

As for Obama’s birthplace rumours, he got himself into this mess. Unlike any other President in recent history, Obama refuses to make public his records, from the oft-discussed ‘long-form’ (i.e., with physician’s signature) birth certificate, to his college and travel records. His campaign officials and even half-sister gave conflicting statements about which hospital he was born at. And on his trip to Africa, he conspicuously avoided his father’s birthplace, Kenya. For someone who has been quite candid about things like cocaine use, Obama’s secrecy on these issues is what’s fuelling talk of foreign birth.

Sorry can’t help myself:
Amy, here is a prime example of a “freakin moron”. Or, as we say on the left, “moran”.

“But it does mean that the White House and Obama’s allies don’t necessarily need to launch into a campaign to educate those poor deluded Americans who have somehow gotten the mistaken impression that the president is a follower of Islam instead of Christianity.”
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No, but they need a campaign to convince the roughly lucid portion of the public (oddly enough, that includes the Village Press) that around one quarter of the public – the present right-wing-following public – is batsh!t insane with indoctrinated hatred of Obama and all Democrats.

Excellent use of logic, apr2563.

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/08/fire_department_denies_florida_churchs_plans_to_burn_korans.php?ref=fpa

Another example of morans. Church wants to burn Korans. These are the same type of people who were reactionaries post WWII. McCarthyites, Birchers, Supporters of Segregation, and biggest sacriligeous exemplars: burners of rock and roll records!

1) So, 10% think that Obama’s a Muslim because they honestly think he’s a Muslim (and thus are idiots) and another 10-15% think Obama’s a Muslim because they think that calling him a Muslim villifies him because obviously “Islam is evil”. So I have to ask: how does this disprove that a quarter of Americans are idiots?
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2) 10% on each side are ideological puritan idiots who couldn’t be brought to work with the other side using water boarding – Time’s daily polls are fairly good proof of that. So even if we discount that 15% buffer, we still end up with 20% of Americans are idiots.

http://tpmlivewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/08/jon-stewart-is-fox-news-a-terrorist-command-center-video.php?ref=fpb
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“Fox Terrorist Command Center”
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It’s true. I saw it on TV.

By definition 49% are below average, unless average has a range, which it must because 49% can’t be above average, because I excluded those at 50% that is 1% and when I add them up 49 + 49+ 1 = 99%.
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Hmm………………………….
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Let me think!

“…we still end up with 20% of Americans are idiots.”
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I wouldn’t be so optimistic. Fully half the public are willing to tell a pollster that they believe the President to be a socialist and that the economic stimulus hurt the economy. Those are two counterfactual, counterintuitive right-wing propaganda messages that are easily disproved. You can argue about the reasons and the ratios but there’s no question that way more that one fifth of the public are deluded and wrong.

“Let me think!”
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I think. Therefore I am. I think.

This whole argument is comical being fueled by the MSM. It is a nice diversion from Obama’s tumbling ratings and an economy on the abyss of a double dip.

The media who took the guided tour of Obama’s candidacy are now starting to figure out who this guy really is. Hint: He is closer to what conservatives having been saying for a couple of years than what liberals wanted everyone to believe.

The debate will continue for one simple reason: Obama will say whatever he thinks will get him re-elected. He was born a Muslim, studied in a Muslin school, then “converted to Christianity” in the church of Rev. Wright. But he didn’t hear any of the hate and slurs from the Rev in the 20 yrs he sat in his pews. And now what church does he attend? Our lady of the Sand Trap as Obama spends his Sundays golfing.

Amy Sullivan:
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Are three-quarters of the national press corps freakin’ morons?

Was that a trick question?

Stuart: Do you think she’s answer?

Digby has a simpler answer.

http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2010/08/sociological-overthink-reason-why-right.html

@Amy,

While it is likely that he isn’t Muslim, it is surprising that you would state so emphatically that you know he is a Christian. You don’t know that, and neither does the public or the MSM.

…mix with a pinch of hyperbole, a smidgen of closed-mindedness and a dash of lunatic fringe. Agitate well. Serve cold under a rotten log.

Maybe, GatePost for brains, that’s cause Obama SAID SO HIMSELF THAT HE’S A CHRISTIAN. Beyond that, who the #%&@ are YOU to say that he’s NOT?????

..this proves that you’re in the one-quarter of the post title.

@ Amy,

I should also mention that you don’t know what Clinton has done on his forays around the world making deals with his friends.

Drugs aren’t likely part of his equation, but some his actions don’t fall under the definition of either “moral” or “principled.” The MSM won’t report on his shenanigans, but perhaps you could interview a couple of people close enough to have smelled the stench.

“that’s cause Obama SAID SO HIMSELF THAT HE’S A CHRISTIAN. Beyond that, who the #%&@ are YOU to say that he’s NOT?????”

So you are advocating taking every politician at his/her word. Or is it just selected ones of your choosing?

A much easier question to answer is “Are 100% of writers for Time freakin morons”? The easy answer is YES!!!!!!!

Unfortunately the term “Muslim” has become code for being un-American. The people who say Obama is Muslim are probably the same people who say he doesn’t like America, wasn’t actually born here and is a socialist. It’s becoming like the Red scare of the 1950s with people making wild accusations, “seeds” being passed and increasing hysteria.

Is Barrack really a closet Muslim…who would “Out” himself if it was convenient and would not cost him mega votes?

Well, as we say, “If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck…chances are…its a Duck.”

Barrack Hussein has taken every opportunity to side with the Muslims. In his writings he has stated that if things get dicey in the world he will side with the Muslims. He cancels the National Day of Prayer at the White House, but invites Muslim clerics to a dinner bash there to honor the annual Muslim religious Ramadan event.

The big “O” walks like, talks like, and always sides with the Muslims…therfore…???

Many people responding will not follow my link to Digby and since their mind is made up, likely won’t read this either, but…

Adam Serwer writes:

This sheds a bit of light on why Republicans express their disapproval of Obama by identifing him as a “Muslim,” and why conservative elites fan the perception. People don’t like Muslims very much, and if you can associate Obama with Muslims, people will like him less as well. It also reinforces what I said earlier, which is that Republicans don’t think constitutional rights apply to Muslims because they don’t see Muslims as American.

I’m sure that’s true. But I think it also misses the point. Serwer had it right yesterday when he said:

In a less politically correct time they probably would have used a different word.

They call him a Muslim — and are quite suddenly lashing out at “his people” almost a decade after 9/11— simply because they aren’t allowed to call him what they want to call him. Sure, they don’t think Muslims are American. They also don’t think liberals are American, blacks are American, Mexicans are America, gays are American, atheists are American or anyone else who doesn’t identify themselves explicitly with them are American. They are, you see, Real America. Everyone else is not.

I read Digby’s analysis prior to your having re-posted it here, and I have to say that I think that this take (see #17) is even simpler –and more precise– than Adam’s.

Um, Ed, you’ve contradicted yourself. Muslims pray.

“some people genuinely believed Jerry Falwell’s 1990s nonsense about Bill Clinton being involved in a cocaine-smuggling operation”

Some people believed Gary Webb’s “nonsense” too.

http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2008/10/21/coke-or-pepsi/

Nothing happened at Mena. Nothing. Ask Poppy Bush if you don’t believe me.

Rustfreep,
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You question everyone you hate.
We hate everything you question.
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Can’t you get off the hamster roll cage of your life for just once?

So if my dad’s from Liberia and I don’t visit there on my African journey, that makes people question whether I was born in America? I don’t get it. Or you.

Welcome to the club.

Good ones do it three times a day, too.

*sigh* Rusty, Rusty, Rusty…

Under Shari’a law, this makes Obama Jr. a Muslim
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This is the USA, I didn’t think we invoked Sharia law here. I thought this was something you guys were afraid of. Did I misunderstand?

Yes.

He cancels the National Day of Prayer at the White House
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No, he didn’t. He stopped Bush’s habit of making it a major political event and instead issued the National Day of Prayer proclamation and prayed privately with his family.
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And if you’re as good a Christian as he is, you’ll recognize that this is precisely how Jesus instructed us to pray — go re-read Matthew 6.

Only a quarter?

Sacred,
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In my adult life I always loved history (nothing too esoteric most of the time, the History Chanel and PBS are great) and to irreverently paraphrase Matthew 26:11 (and I had to use the internet to know where it came from) Morons you will always have with you.
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Less irreverently “What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again;there is nothing new under the sun.” Ecclesiastes 1:9-14
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Just as a study was done which showed that crime in the early 2000s was one third as high as it was in the 1980s but reporting of it was up three times as high making it seem as if crime had tripled instead of gone down to one third, I see a different change in these recent times: Morons today have their own TV Shows, their own Radio shows and their own cable station.
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I have no idea why Biblical passages popped into my head, but, I do swear to you that I am an unbeliever and not going to turn into a right wing (or even liberal – since there are some like Jimmy Carter) Evangelical or anything like that.
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I just can’t wait for the time when the 75% non-morons defeat morons in the next few election cycles.

“You question everyone you hate.
We hate everything you question”

The first sentence is strictly another baseless opinion by you and the second is what I live for. The left cannot stand to be called on their rampant stupidity

From the Patriot Post:

This week’s Alpha Jackass Award
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“Nine years after 9/11, the fight over the mosque near Ground Zero shows how obsessed we remain with an enemy than may no longer exist”.- Time Magazine

Congrats to another job well done!

“Under Shari’a law, this makes Obama Jr. a Muslim”
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I have been looking for a source to back this up, but, years ago some friends from Turkey (some Muslim some atheist/agnostic) like Jews, it is the mother’s religion which determines the religion of the child so that if Obama wanted to be Muslim he would have to convert to it even if he was raised by both parents so long as his mother had not converted by the time he was born (which she had not – she was never Muslim as his Caucasian grandmother never was.)

It just dawned on me, and this is probably the only time I’ll ever take this position, but despite our 25% lunacy rate, it could be worse: we could be Europe. Seriously. I love Europe, always have, always will. If it were feasible, I’d be living there already. But, let’s face it, as Noam Chomsky notes, “Europe has always actually been more racist than the U.S.” When you look at Europe’s reaction to Islam -some justified, most not- you see a pattern of hostility and isolation, be it Italy’s immigration camps, Switzerland’s prohibition of mosque minarets, or France’s burqa ban, and more recently deportation of the Roma. While it is troubling to see so many of our countrymen fall-back on nativist xenophobia, Know-Nothingism if you will, at least such sentiments are not comprising actual government policy in the US as they so often are throughout Europe. It could be worse. Case in point, from France’s leftist outfit Agoravox, “The mayor, instigated by an imam who is said to be ‘moderate,’ plans to build a mosque extremely close to ground zero, where stood the Twin Towers that Islamist fanaticism reduced to rubble. …You rub your eyes and read again. No, it is not a hallucination. … You look for the justification … but instead of understanding, you dive deeper into an impression of unreality.”

Stuart,
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Like I said in response to Sacred (late start today) I agree with your implication that the problem is that morons have microphones and cameras on them and go unquestioned today spreading misinformation like never before while the media remains silent.
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I definitely grasp your frustration.

Again, it’s a matter of the patrilineal nature of Islam: if your dad’s a Muslim, YOU are a Muslim (the matrilineal version of this appears in Judaism, where the mother’s religion determines her child’s Jewishness). If Obama decided to become a Christian–which I’m sure he did–he is now an Apostate. For renouncing his born religion, this makes him less than popular in the Islamic world.

As for the Kenyan issue, this stems from the fact that Kenya’s Parliamentary Hansard recorded praise for Obama, the “Kenyan-born” President, and all the embarrassing questions a visit would entail.

Actually the term “liberal” or the term “progressive” is synonymous with un-American

Freeinpa,
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Even thought almost everybody to the center or the left – combined about 75% of all Americans – would agree that much if not all GWB did as president did harm.
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Satan is the ultimate uber A-hole of the universe in the Christian world and defined as such.
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Nobody here believes or claims to believe that GWB worshiped Satan and intentionally smashed our economy and international reputation into the ground secretly serving Satan’s dream of causing pain and misery.
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If GWB says that he believes that he is doing the work of God, then no matter how much you disagree with what he says that God told him to do, few doubt that he did believe that he was doing the will of God.
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If Obama says that he is a Christian and not a Muslim, then he is a Christian and not a Muslim just as it is fair to say that GWB did not worship Satan.
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You question Obama because you falsely believe that Muslims are evil. I can find many reasons to say that many aspects of the Muslim religion (particularly the strictest ones) are backwards, but, I can, also, say that about many sects of Christianity, too. I would never say that Muslims are evil.
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So, when Obama speaks to sane people who consider his religion and, therefore, the theology of why Obama does what he believes is best for America and the world as unimportant as his shoe size, he has no motivation to lie.
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You just want to find something to hate about Obama and you hate Muslims, Mexicans, Democrats, Liberals…. a combined 98% of all humans and want to put Obama into an additional category you hate.
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Nobody can check the synapses of Obama’s or anybody else’s brains to figure out what they are thinking, but, Obama’s having gone to churches, prayer meetings and so on indicate that he is Christian.
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I have no idea what his shoe size is, but, if that were a means for you to say you hate Obama, you would question any answer he gives to that question, too.

“Actually the term “liberal” or the term “progressive” is synonymous with un-American”
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But only to the 25% who also fit the category “moron” think this.
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The rest of us would call the supports of Dan Quayle GWB and the third in the trilogy Sarah Palin anti-American.
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Whatever harm they have not yet done is just due to the fact that they haven’t all been powerful enough to do this harm, not for a lack of trying to do things which will harm America.

Last year, I wrote a piece which bears some relevance to the current issues surrounding the communtity-center and rising Islamophobia in the US. I would like to share this with the Swamp community, feedback is welcome. Forgive the British English, editorial mandate for the magazine I was writing for…

Swiss referendum prohibits construction of mosque minarets
December 7, 2009:
A referendum presented to Swiss voters on 29 November passed with 57 per cent of the votes, thus prohibiting further construction of Islamic minarets throughout Switzerland. The referendum was initiated by the Swiss People’s Party (SVP), which has a plurality of seats in the Swiss parliament. The lengthy campaign to attain the petition signatures necessary for a popular vote provoked debates across the nation of 7.6 million on the delicate nature of balancing tolerance of differing religions and traditions with the protection of Swiss culture. Yet, the principles that the referendum seemingly undermines are cornerstones of Swiss society, notably the country’s historical emphasis on cultural inclusion and religious freedom.

Though the backlash has been vocal, intemperance has been muted. The referendum, while controversial, is notable in that it represents an opportunity for broader cultural dialogue. The purported basis for the prohibition is the protection of Swiss culture, a standpoint that can resonate with most any culture, and in fact, is the same position taken by those opposed to the ban. Though there are varying interpretations of the implications of the ban for Switzerland’s image of tolerance and diversity, both proponents and opponents of the referendum espouse their commitment to Swiss culture, and to the protection of religious freedoms. Commonality in this regard can become the basis for further understanding of one another, both pragmatic concerns relating to the politicisation of Islam, and the injurious affectations by which the referendum was publicised. When the rhetoric surrounding the passionate debate subsides, there is likely to remain a heightened sense of cultural divergence, however, with the prospective hope of broader reconciliation based on a respect for both Swiss and Muslim culture.

Freeinpa,
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If you paid any attention to the news the past ten years you would learn one fact: American civilians are a tertiary target of Islamic Fundamentalist.
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Their primary targets are local governments in Muslim dominated countries (most of which are, authentically incredibly inept and/or corrupt) the secondary target are American forces located in that part of the world leaving American citizens living in America or other developed countries a tertiary target.
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That’s why our allies in Iraq get suicide bombers, our troops get IEDs and NYC gets some idiot who is so incompetent that he sets of fire crackers in his own SUV and barely even burns the interior of the car.

Living in Queens, the County with the largest percentage of Immigrants of any other county in the US (over 60% immigrants) I can tell that when immigrants come here, all people want to know is “How fast can you pour me a coffee?” or, “Can you work a cash register?”
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I do not know about more conservative parts of the US, but, if you can do the job well (usually very blue collar for new immigrants unless they have really good credentials from abroad like medical degree) we are very unconcerned about where people are from, where they pray or what they do so long as it is not illegal or involve blasting your stereo outside my door (it only happens a couple of times a year – it’s not too bad.)

Once again, I am nearly positive that that it is matriarchal, not Patriarchal for the Muslim religion.
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If so, “people of the book” – meaning Christians and Jews are not, if they are not born Muslim are not considered Apostate.
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Only non-Muslims who leave the other faiths (people of the book) to become Buddhists, Hindus (but I am not sure of Hindus) or Atheists are regarded as Apostate.
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BTW: as an atheist raised Catholic a Muslim would consider me Apostate.

Suffolk County myself. While it’s pretty much the same environment here, in terms of societal interactions, I still hear some outrageous commentary on the “Ground Zero Mosque.” It’s sad.

Interesting article Exiled. Our own controversy in New York highlights a similar problem. The community center intends to promote inter-faith understanding. Many people see it as an in-you-face act designed to rub our noses in the dirt. I look at it as an act of contrition meant to bring about understanding and inclusiveness. When you single a people out they don’t feel as if they are a part of the whole. Stopping the community center might be politically advantageous for a short term political gain, but it would be a mistake in the long term.

Sacred: You’ve got it!
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Agreed completely!

The Prophet Muhammad said, “No babe is born but upon Fitra (as a Muslim). It is his parents who make him a Jew or a Christian or a Polytheist.” (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6426)

Islam is the religion of all Prophets, Adam to Muhammad. Children are not born out of any sin, original, inherited or derived. They are born on the religion of their nature, i.e., Islam.
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According to Muhammad you are born a Muslim. How is that for you?

Thanks, Sacred. I, too, agree. However, that position is difficult to convey to people so readily willing to misinterpret ‘otherness.’ In this case, people simply cannot fathom that this “mosque” is anything other than a victory symbol from “our enemy.” In my interview with Ms Silvia Baer, the Assistant General Secretary of the Swiss People’s Party, she too continued to emphasize the intangible with concrete certainty. The minaret, she argued, is more than an architectural symbol of Islam, it is a symbol of Islamic fundamentalism and conquest, etc. etc. etc. How so, she refused to explain. Strange.

And if Jesus were walk the earth today, especially in the US, he’d be put in a straight jacket and locked up on the nearest mental ward.

Amy

For your extreme insolence in your headline question, pray read:

http://ikejakson.wordpress.com/2010/08/21/are-almost-half-of-american/

The birther thing and the Muslim thing are all of the same, trying to paint Obama as an ‘other’ that is acceptable to hate in public in place of the ‘other’ that is not acceptable to hate in public — that he’s black.
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Didn’t we go through a lot of this during the primaries when Hillary said outright on a radio interview that Obama could not win the working class white vote?

This church has the “right” to burn the Koran. But a Mosque or any other group would also have the “right” to burn a bunch of Bibles. But if that were to happen, the right wingers would be raging.

Well, he was baptized.

When you say ‘it looks like a duck’ do you mean how Obama is a little….dark? And that equals Muslim?

No? He only wrote two books that mentions everything about his background. Did you refuse to read them or chose not to believe them?
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If you do not want people to interact with you with insolence, try not to insult their intelligence.

Personally, I think the answer to Amy’s question would be that closer to half, perhaps as much of 2/3 of all Americans are morons. Too many people get caught up in “group think” instead of thinking for themselves.

“According to Muhammad you are born a Muslim. How is that for you?”
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Damn! I have a drink a dozen or so times a year, but, every morning I have a ham and cheese.
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But then, again, maybe I will swim in that pool at the Burlington Coat Factory Building. Why not? If we are all born Muslim according to Muslims, we should all have a swim.
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(If I understand correctly, all will be welcome to use the pool.)

I’d like to announce that I won’t be posting here anymore. I’m starting my own blog. I’d like to invite everyone to follow my musings. You can find my blog at time.com under the heading of swampland.
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I know it seems familiar. I’m just too f**king lazy to come up with something new. Besides, there’s already regular commenters there. Hope to see you soon.

Thanks so very much for this contribution, neorationalist86, it is very much worth the read.

Even ascial! Right now though he is trying to figure how to break the news to his buddies.

Say what?

I read your piece, Adam.
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I am not clear what you find important about religious affiliation. Is it that you want to know whether or not a President has the ability to distinguish religious ideation from reason?.

newfreedomblog~
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I watched each of the broadcasts excerpted in your posted video
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The video is a deliberately-deceitful sequence of edits out of context.
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Omitted, for instance, are Obama’s quotes from the Bible and the Tora, as part of his attempt to demonstrate the universality of certain themes
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If you made this video, shame on you.
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If you are just passing it on, send it back to where ever you got it, along with my comments, and be a lot more careful about taking anything from that same source as gospel. Not only does it make you look bad to keep posting this kind of thing, it makes you a tool of Satan

stu~

think: Ike Jackson and michaelfury

Thanks Exiled for sharing this article. It is interesting to read how European countries are dealing with their Islam population. Because of the breakup of their colonial interests, they have been dealing with the consequences of muslim immigration for sometime.
The European countries, as we know from history, have not been very good with assimilation.
My grandmother, who immigrated from the Austrian/Hungarian empire, used to warn us about the gypsies stealing babies. Not a lot of gypsies to be found in Central Washington where she lived. The French are now expelling gypsies from their country.
Ghettoizing people and emphasizing their “otherness” is never cultually positive.

sacred: That was too nuanced and subtle for me. Thanks mycophile for clearing things up.

Maybe if the members of the press weren’t spinning Obama’s story in order to give him cover for his “I was just sitting in a pew at Rev. Wright’s church for 20 years, I wasn’t, like, LISTENING to what he said, and you’re a bigot for thinking I would” pose, people wouldn’t be wondering about his background. (I know, it’s racist to even think about what religion the president of our country practices–or doesn’t–18 months and counting to find a church, how long to find a golf course?)

I agree we shouldn’t trust the rightwing to tell us about his background; we must turn to sources that aren’t connected to the demon FOX:

Obama’s mother, divorced from Obama’s father, married a man from Indonesia named Lolo Soetoro, and the family relocated to the country from 1967-71. At first, Obama attended the Catholic school, Fransiskus Assisis, where documents showed he enrolled as a Muslim, the religion of his stepfather. The document required that each student choose one of five state-sanctioned religions when registering _ Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Catholic or Protestant. Gibbs said he wasn’t sure why the document had Obama listed as a Muslim.

Source: That radical rightwing rag The Washington Post

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/24/AR2007012400371_pf.html

March 15, 2007|Paul Watson, Times Staff Writer
JAKARTA, INDONESIA — As a boy in Indonesia, Barack Obama crisscrossed the religious divide. At the local primary school, he prayed in thanks to a Catholic saint. In the neighborhood mosque, he bowed to Allah.

—(clip)—

“To be clear, Senator Obama has never been a Muslim, was not raised a Muslim, and is a committed Christian who attends the United Church of Christ in Chicago,” Gibbs’ Jan. 24 statement said. In a statement to The Times on Wednesday, the campaign offered slightly different wording, saying: “Obama has never been a practicing Muslim.” The statement added that as a child, Obama had spent time in the neighborhood’s Islamic center.

—(clip)—

His former Roman Catholic and Muslim teachers, along with two people who were identified by Obama’s grade-school teacher as childhood friends, say Obama was registered by his family as a Muslim at both of the schools he attended.

That registration meant that during the third and fourth grades, Obama learned about Islam for two hours each week in religion class.

—(clip)—

The childhood friends say Obama sometimes went to Friday prayers at the local mosque. “We prayed but not really seriously, just following actions done by older people in the mosque.

Neighborhood Muslims worshiped in a nearby house, which has since been replaced by a larger mosque. Sometimes, when the muezzin sounded the call to prayer, Lolo and Barry would walk to the makeshift mosque together, Adi said.

“His mother often went to the church, but Barry was Muslim. He went to the mosque,” Adi said. “I remember him wearing a sarong.”

—(clip)—

“At that time, Barry was also praying in a Catholic way, but Barry was Muslim,” Dharmawan said in Obama’s old classroom, where she still teaches 39 years later. “He was registered as a Muslim because his father, Lolo Soetoro, was Muslim.”

—(clip)—

Bugs have eaten Obama’s file in the school’s archive, said Vice Principal Hardi Priyono. But two of his teachers, former Vice Principal Tine Hahiyari and third-grade teacher Effendi, said they remember clearly that at this school too, he was registered as a Muslim, which determined what class he attended during weekly religion lessons.

Source: The radical conservative LA Times

http://articles.latimes.com/2007/mar/15/nation/na-obama15

Sacred, the time.com link doesn’t work, html tags failed.
(your reply was subtle and effective, FTW!)

Did TIME ask ‘Are Americans Really This Dumb?’ when 25% of Americans thought George W Bush was behind 9/11? No. TIME wanted people to be suspicious about Bush. TIME fanned the truther flames.

However, when this man who is registered as a muslim in school in Indonesia, who constantly criticizes Christians, who calls America a muslim nation, who constantly sides with muslims is considered a muslim by a sizeable chunk of the country TIME has to scream about how stupid everyone lese is?

TIME is nothing but a mouthpiece for Obama and the DNC.

TIME really should take a critical look at this man that America is turning their backs on. Investigate his past. Look at his associations with marxists and radicals. How about this: ASK FOR HIS COLLEGE TRANSCRIPTS.

Do the job you should have done in 2008! Instead of cheerleading for Obama and smearing every Republican you could try some actual journalism instead of that Goebbels crap you have been passing off as news for the last decade.

I think I have to comment on “allthingsinana” [comment 31.1] and to answer the questions raised.

My friend, I believe in reading “all sides” of a story and I have read both Obama’s books. In fact I have Dreams … at my elbow while I am at the keyboard. My copy is Canongate ISBN 978 1 84767 091 5 edition. Let us compare mine and yours to verify that we have the same editions.

In mine on page 115 [on the right hand side] the second paragraph from the top starts with and I quote:
“Maybe it really was that simple for him. I imagined my father sitting at his desk in Nairobi, a big man in Government, with clerks and secretaries bringing him papers to sign, …”

If you have the same edition, pray tell me where you find anything about his own personal Faith [page numbers and paragraphs as I have done above] and what you call “everything about his background.”

Maybe I should also ask whether you have read the history of Kenya, say just from 1900 onwards? If you have, do furnish me with anything about Obama Senior as “a big man in government” that you can locate.

I can’t believe the play this poll is generating. The way the media just slavishly wastes so many words defending their hero is kind of astounding.

I don’t care what he is. What he isn’t is abnormally “smart” or “intelligent”. He has kept his academic records hidden, A narcissist wouldn’t do that if they were impressive. He has shown that he cannot construct a coherent argument without a teleprompter. He has no political acumen when he wanders away from his handlers. Most of what he has tried has failed abysmally.

Yet we constantly hear how “smart” he is. Why don’t we have a poll of the percentage of people who actually believe that and they generate a lot of articles implying that those people are morons?

If you were paying attention, the comments were not about Obama, the administration or the policies but about how strange misinformation is being dispersed and accepted in our culture.
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“The way the media just slavishly wastes so many words defending their hero is kind of astounding.”
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About half of us, or many of us half the time are what the administration would call “the professional left”.
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When not being compared to the nightmares of the Dubbya years people here are very critical of Obama.
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“He has shown that he cannot construct a coherent argument without a teleprompter.”
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The right wing keeps on focusing on the teleprompter even though Obama himself writes a vast majority of the words written on the teleprompter and is well known for good off-the-cuff remarks since Democrats five years ago were critical of this:
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http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://cache1.asset-cache.net/xc/55971075.jpg%3Fv%3D1%26c%3DIWSAsset%26k%3D2%26d%3D77BFBA49EF878921F7C3FC3F69D929FDA5308DCD6DCB52313C2A91FC5EC886FFD65C6D7F6A0600CDF06BF04B24B4128C&imgrefurl=http://www.life.com/image/55971075&usg=__2ZM-svDNHdoxGH5KgGOL_c7sKj0=&h=594&w=525&sz=41&hl=en&start=0&zoom=0&tbnid=9rJVSPs7R-keOM:&tbnh=131&tbnw=116&prev=/images%3Fq%3DGeorge%2BBush%2Bear%2Bpeice%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26biw%3D1440%26bih%3D749%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=714&vpy=291&dur=1061&hovh=135&hovw=119&tx=75&ty=95&ei=8rpvTK78BcX6lwfS2LCdDQ&oei=8rpvTK78BcX6lwfS2LCdDQ&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=32&ved=1t:429,r:12,s:0
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Michael Steel, begging to find a reason to attack Obama in an identical way Democrats opposed Bush decided to hold Obama responsible for Afghanistan started seven years before his presidency since everybody remembers the Iraq War as a Bush-Cheney homicidal project to make sure that they won in 2004 as a “wartime president”.
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Look for “Obama is brilliant” or anything really praising Obama in the article or in the posts.
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You won’t find any.
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You must be thinking of Red State being the chorus of praise for everything Republican and just presume that we are a cheerleading squad, too.

Well I do not have my copies, they have been passed around my family and, only heaven knows where they might be. I have no need for them to be at my elbow, fixated at them, to nitpick each and every word as in your example. You do not read to learn; you read to twist things into your sick way of thinking. You live and, love to hate.
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Why should I read the history of Kenya? Perhaps you should try to read the history of the US and try to get some perspective on your thinking.

Dear Reader,
I wonder why we don’t hear from agnostics and atheists – there are a great number around too? Perhaps, we really don’t want to see the racial and religious thinking that is bubbling up from the depths within many humans! Yes, I wonder!
The Old Goat

I am an athiest.
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Sacredh also calls himself an atheist.
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I, definitely would not call myself a militant atheist nor an evangelical atheist.
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If you want to talk to a being I believe is not and has never been there to hear you, enjoy. It is encourages you to give big gifts and do great things for people, excellent, maybe pray some more. If it encourages you to knock on my door and share your deity with me, please stop praying – I might be watching a movie, working or something else and am uninterested. If it encourages you blow people, please, please, please, please stop praying right away!
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I dislike misinformation and, therefore, dislike how so many people are saying that the president has a different theology than he does.
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if it were important to people, I would dislike it, also, if there was misinformation about the president’s shoe size, too.
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Atheists without radical political philosophies are the least dangerous people you will ever find.
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(Communists were atheists and dangerous, but, Fascists were religious, got the blessing or at least tolerated by local religious leaders were far more dangerous and, therefore, more short lived.)

Hmmmmmmmmm
But it is NOT about Obama.
It is about Morons.
Morons, who think- the Earth is flat, reject Climate change and would not ever even listen any other opinion.
We should admit – close to quarter of population are Morons, easy manipulated by Faux news – donor of GOP and this is a problem we should deal with going further into future.
As of today these morons already are making a difference : today you could not consider palin as political figure without these morons -and media promotes this crazy woman 10 times more than any other politician; you could not have uncertified surgeon-candidate Paul without crowd of morons fighting for freedom of doing nothing, you could not have angry racists-trash baggers on our streets , fighting against tax, that were not raised, when all morons are in their crowd, and other morons bearing firearms, who never defending anybody with them, in our National Parks , where our kids feel being on military plaza.
And maybe some of those morons a teaching our children.
Right here, in this country, right now.
Morons are on offensive, but where we are?

How far would we allow them to go?

Why would 1 in 4 be so hard to believe? Not quite 2 in 4 feel he’s doing a good job. And YES those two ARE, (to use your verbiage) ‘freakin MORONS’

No – you are wrong about one fourth of the US being “freakin” morons.

The truth is… that 80% of all MSM “journalists” are “freakin” morons – with Time Magazine currently batting 100%.

Stop your liberal spin; Obama’s problem with appearing to be a Muslim is the simple fact that he favors Muslims – recall his Cairo speech where he said America is not a Christian nation? Recall, banning the term “Muslim terrorist”?

Recall how Obama instructed NASA to give “top priority to outreach to Muslims” – and then he killed the United States manned space programs in NASA?

If it walks like a duck, if it quacks like a duck… it certainly must be foul.

I don’t disagree that some users call him a Muslim as a pejorative. But there is another explanation that is more innocent. Many Americans would claim religion is something you’re “born into” rather than something you “choose”. In this sense, he was born by admission, into the Muslim faith. Religion and “race” also overlap to a small degree. Thus a Jew who practices Christianity would still be called a Jew by many, by virtue of bloodline, not faith.

Actually, a bit more than one quarter of Americans are “freakin morons”. According to RealClearPolitics, just over 40% of our countrymen still support the failed and feckless Obama.

If you want to strengthen the Southern border, you hate Hispanics; if you believe marriage is between a man and a woman, you are homophobic; if you want that Mosque moved, you hate all Muslims. Progressives/liberals cannot argue the merits of the issues, they just call people on the other side names. It’s like that old saw that attorneys use: if you have the law on your side, argue the law. If you have the facts on your side, argue the facts. If you have neither on your side, pound the table. Progressives/liberals are a bunch of table-pounders.

Uh….yes.

Personally, I don’t know what religion Obama is and I don’t care but it seems reasonable that the reason so many people wonder if he is a Muslim is because (1) He has been caught in so many lies (2) He appears to show a lot of deference to the religion of Islam with all his bowing, scraping and deference to Islamic people(3) He shows no deference at all to the Christian religion and (4) He often criticizes and ridicules Christian attitudes and behavior.

In answer to the title question, no – only 21% of Americans are freakin morons; at least according to Gallup.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/120857/Conservatives-Single-Largest-Ideological-Group.aspx

By the way, has anyone considered the stupidity of asking a polling question about another person’s faith? We might be able to identify what another person CLAIMS to be but there are lots of people attending church who are not really christians and I imagine the same holds true for other faiths. I know Obama attended a christian church here in Chicago but I have no crystal ball that tells me what is in his heart. I would have to answer that question with an “I don’t know” (just like 46% of Democrats)

“So let’s say something more like 10% of Americans are conspiracy-minded”

Regarding this “conspiracy theory”, it is actually closer to 84%, Ms. Sullivan:

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/index.cfm/fuseaction/viewItem/itemID/13469

Wonder why?

http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2009/04/11/the-rest-is-silence/

They don’t think this because they’re stupid and don’t know otherwise, they think Obama’s a Muslim because they sincerely believe he’s LYING about his faith.

I agree with your assessment. Our school system is much more concerned with pretending a student is succeeding and teaching down to the least capable student than making sure all students are literate in reading, writing, arithmetice and science.

That means they teach too much in the way of social studies. Therefore, most students are completely unprepared for the real world where real skills are needed to succeed.

It also means that students who have been told they are exceptional their entire lives when they may be only average or less have unrealistic expectations, selfishness and egos that are way too large.

It’s a recipe for failure.

No wonder so many people resort to drug use.

I don’t believe the polls. People are just so fed up with BO that they are dissing him. And actually, being a Muslim is a huge step up from the Jeremiah Wright church. And I realize that this comment shows some religious prejudice, but then I’m prejudiced against any politician that brings up any religion. Very offensive.

You think – they could think?
without any tool to think with.
And this is a major problem.

oh yeah, i want to be lectured by some liberal tool from time magazine. i really respond to being talked down to you, feckless pile of tripe. i don’t really care what religion obama is. i care that he’s a pathological liar, and an arrogant opportunist. you and your lemming friends in media can keep kissing his rear, but the rest of us are done with him, and you……

he is a pathological liar, so why would this issue necessarily be any different?

Good Grief!! Morons???

Another greatcolumn from Time.
What color is the sky inside the liberal bubble?
Soon to go the way of Newsweek.
If they were still relevant , I’d say good riddance. But I’m one of those who remember what these magazines stood for 50 years ago and have watched their slide into the progressive swamp.
SAD!

I wouldn’t say 1/4 are morons…it is more like 41%…

AP Poll:….41 percent of those surveyed approve of the president’s performance on the economy,

where did he?
and You caught him on it?
I am sorry – I certainly do not believe You.
Why should I ?
Because You said so?

That’s is exactly Republican’s argument – no fact, just say.
It is blah-blah-blah , sir
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Let me state upfront that my political affiliation would fall in line with most conservative Christians. That being said, it does surprise that we allow ourselves to be so easily manipulated by our fears. The reality of this discussion is the President, may profess to be a Christian, but in truth religion is just a stepping stone to achieve his political goals. As a creature of the left, he does not draw his strength from his personal beliefs, but uses his religion as a means to end. For us Christians..Wake up to the fear mongering. Politicians don’t care about your beliefs, they care about manipulating you for their desired outcome to advance their own agenda and their best tool FEAR. It’s time we focus on what matters, getting people back work, dealing with the tough issues we face in the country. And finally to the liberal, condensing, arrogant left…I don’t believe you had any problem when a poll was released about President Bush stating 10% of democrats believed he orchestrated a conspiracy to bring down the twin towers.. THERE are plenty of FREAKIN MORONS in both parties..We only see what we want to see..

I believe Amy has given Americans too much credit.

For a second, I thought this was an article about the 65 million Americans who voted for Obama. But then I realized it was just another article about how Bush, Palin and anybody else who doesn’t worship the petulant prince who prances with a teleprompter is stupid!

In the interview with George Stephanopoulos, did you not hear Barry X proclaim my muslim faith.

Also, the FM of Egypt has said Barry X has confided to him in meetings that he acknowledged he was in fact a muslim.

Is the fact of his religion important? It is if one does not care for that bs called sharia law.

If Barry X were not in fact muslim, it would still be difficult to distinguish that fact from the reality of his action and words.

Is Amy saying a voter may not take into consideration the religous faih of a politician for whom one is considering to vote?

Many of the reader postings to be seen here validate the judgment of Liberals made by Tony Kohler, “Liberals, as a group, are utterly wedded to doing what sounds good and/or feels good with no concern for what actually works. This is one of the reasons that they resort to ad hominem attacks on their opponents–they have absolutely no way to confront their opponents on issues, so they have to shut down opposition before the discussion gets to facts and figures.”

For Pete’s sake, Obama, a guy who lives by the manipulation of words & of people, admitted in plain English he’s a Muslim. Either he a professional wordsmith told the truth or he lied. There’s no third choice to understand what he said. So is he a Muslim, or is he a liar?

OK I will type this slowly so it won’t just go right by you. He lies about everything else….so why should this be an exception. I rest my case.

Truth be known, you in the media and the children in the liberal wing of the world are the “freakin’ morons” who can’t handle an opinion opposed to your own so you resort to childish name calling. The adults who would normally be your audience are leaving you in droves because you still lack maturity to prove yourselves worthy of taking seriously anymore.

Yes, Amy, 25% of Americans are frekin’ morons – the roughly 20 to 25% who call themselves liberal Democrats, most especially those who are in the mainstream media, which by the way, is rapidly going bankrupt.

R 1/4…Morons? Well,I find it VERY logical that a substantial % of respondents think he’s lying about his religion.

The reason: He’s told so many lies about so many things that it isn’t much of a stretch to think he’d lie about that as well. I personally don’t know and don’t care if he IS lying about his religion bcuz that can’t hurt the US one way or the other.

However, the other LIES HES TOLD ARE BANKRUPTING THE COUNTRY.

Finally, just about half the country is BELOW AVERAGE. So….

This notion that the public are morons for thinking Obama is a Muslim is arrogant on its face.
I don’t believe he’s Muslim but I understand a lot of people don’t spend their whole lives hanging on the every word of any politician.
They see that he has a Muslim name. They may have read that his father was Muslim or that he attended a Muslim school in Indonesia for a time. He’s quoted as saying the call to prayer is one of the most beautiful sounds on earth and he references in an interview with George Stephanopoulos “My Muslim faith” which he quickly corrects, at George’s prompting.
After all this, members of the smart set, like Amy Sullivan, are shocked, SHOCKED, I say, to read that some people might possibly think he’s a Muslim.
Where do these morons get such notions? Don’t these morons read the New York Times, which would explain all this?
Of course, none of those things makes him a Muslim. But it may explain how the casual observer could wrongly conclude that he is.
Now if someone claimed he was Mormon, then I’d conclude that person is indeed a moron because he’s never once been connected in any way to that faith.
Of course, if he were a Mormon, all the folks defending him and the mosque in the name of tolerance, would immediately demonstrate their own intolerance.

Glad to hear that the New York Times are finally considered Freaking Morons too. Their 2008 piece on Obama was posted on Drudge yesterday, and it clearly says that Obama is a muslim. He is a muslim because islam says he is. He is the son of a muslim, and therefore IS a muslim, regardless of the beliefs in his head. Of course this is ludicrous- like Nazi Germany calling someone a Jew if they had one Jewish grandparent. He doesn’t have to be a practicing muslim to be considered one by islamic law.
The probable reason that 24% of Americans believe Obama is a muslim is because he says he is not. He has a tremendous problem telling the truth. If he said that the Sun comes up in the East, I will bet that 25-50% of Americans begin to doubt that too.

Yeah–I’m sure 1/4 of Americans are freakin morons. Only in my opinion it is the 24% who still strongly support this horrible failure of a president.

Hilarious!! You gave me a laugh this morning…thanks!

No, 25% of Americans are not freaking idiots. 50% are. The 25% who decide to believe nothing and the other 25% who decide to believe everything. Nobody but Obama knows what is in his mind and heart. All of this anecdotal “evidence” leading one way or the other is just plain crap. For the love of God stop dividing the opinions of Obama’s faith, race, friends, ally’s, etc. into a right or left battle. Everything about him is what it is and cannot be created or altered by anyone, friend or foe. Judge him by the job he was elected to do and ask yourself, without political bias, is he doing it.

THERE are plenty of FREAKIN MORONS in both parties..We only see what we want to see.

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Too true

well put, papagrump
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as said by loysfour@53: “There are plenty of freakin morons in both parties..We only see what we want to see.”

Amy, Amy , Amy….You arrogant conceited writer. I have but ine question, when OB swapped colors in his twenties,pray tell what religion did he swap from??????

If he isn’t praying to Allah actively, he is so uber-senstive as to make the difference slight.

One more: He is clearly so unexperienced in the international world that he is making all of us believe he is islamic.

Your comment on the Mormon aspect is absolutely true. I am not a Mormon, but God help any qualified presidential candidate who is. Religious tolerance is never a sure thing with people or the American government. Islam must have a better public relations company working for them than some other religions.

Dear Ms. Sullivan,

It’s perfectly obvious that President Obama isn’t a practicing Muslim. He doesn’t attend Muslim services and he doesn’t observe Muslim ritual (e.g., prayer and ablutions five times a day).

On the other hand, he has refused to acknowledge that Islam is infested by terrorists who hate the United States and that most Islamic governments have little or no regard for basic human rights. Not only that, he has appeased the Islamic Republic of Iran by letting it accumulate enough uranium to produce two nuclear bombs, and he has pandered to Islamic Kingdom of Saudi Arabia by obsequiously bowing to its rigidly repressive monarch.

That doesn’t make the President a Muslim, but it may explain why so many people view him that way. Maybe it would clear the air if his current Christian pastor spoke up on his behalf.

John D, Hartigan
Chevy Chase, MD

problem is, the above description also fit George W Bush, and yet no one considered him to be a Muslim.

please define “us”
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I would like to know which community you are excluding me from.

My blog has been up for only a very short time and already somebody has posted a link to it. You’ll note that I’m posting threads for your enjoyment under various familar names. I think it’s going to catch on.

Kevin

Thank you for the lesson in bible study.

However, you might benefit by reading Matt 5:15-16.

Obama lost a big chance to allow the world to see that he believes in Christ and prays to Him. That same lost opportunity would have helped him shed the suspicion, because of his support of arab causes, that he is really a Muslim.

Further, if you read what I said more closely, you will note that I did not say that he cancelled the World Day of Prayer nationally, but “at the White House”. Big difference.

Some time, you might read what Obama really thinks about Christ. Heck…I’ll take the time and show you:

See if you can deduce his Christian belief from the following 2004 interview with him by Kathleen Falsani. Falsani is reportedly one of the most gifted interviewer’s on matters of Faith.

Does his consideration of the role of Jesus Christ include the fact that Christ was the literal son of God, born of a virgin, and who died on the cross for our sins? Or, is Christ merely a historical good man…a teacher that acts as a bridge?

FALSANI:
Who’s Jesus to you?

(He laughs nervously)

OBAMA:
Right.

Jesus is an historical figure for me, and he’s also a bridge between God and man, in the Christian faith, and one that I think is powerful precisely because he serves as that means of us reaching something higher.

And he’s also a wonderful teacher. I think it’s important for all of us, of whatever faith, to have teachers in the flesh and also teachers in history.

Well, you figure it out…

Amy, I believe the MORONS are the ones who were on JOURNOLIST and Lib writers such as yourselves who only serve to carry BO’s water, 24/7!

You nor anyone else can PROVE that BO is a christian.

People that don’t have proof on their side ALWAYS resort to name calling, ie writers, lawyers, Politicians etc!

Thanks to all for trying out my new blog site. I see that Drudge (or someone else) has linked to it. It’s also my twitter account. Facebook too.

Just ate dinner. Let u no how it turned out in 8 hrs.

“I am an athiest.
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Sacredh also calls himself an atheist.”
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There are several more on here. We’ve infested this site.
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and Theodore Rosak labeled me a “Gnostic”, in his book “Where the Wasteland Ends”
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and I don’t think it matters one miniscule iota what Obama’s view of spirituality is.
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I agree with all the posters who have said that what matters is how Obama acts — what he does.
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and I, like all the critical thinkers (that is different than “criticizing thinkers”) here, find a lot of what O does to be worthy of critique. But, to whatever extent others’ gods may have had to do with it, I thank them that we don’t have in that Oval Office chair any of the notorious Obama-bashers-no-matter-what on this site, because there is not one shred of doubt in my mind that we would now be in the midst of an unmitigated disaster the likes of which would make our current conundrums look like a cool summer breeze.

I don’t believe that Obama is a Muslim or a Christian. Islam teaches one to hate the Infidel (any non-Muslim), and Jesus taught us to love our enemies. I don’t see Obama hating anyone, and the only person he loves is himself. Barack Obama worships Barack Obama–period.

yea, it stood for ultra-”right” editorial spin of every “news” article, under penalty of being fired.

How do some threads become catnip for republicans who never would otherwise post a comment?
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JK attracts them but evidently this thread too.
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Just curious.

I know where this stuff comes from, it doesn’t matter
I also know know that on this site everything that is not in lockstep with so called “progressive” thinking seems to be shouted down as being “some people” or from Fox, or being a Republican or raciest and bigoted.
I have been blessed by my upbringing and God given intelligence to filter through the garbage and get to the truth of the matter.
The truth is it doesn’t matter what religion our President is but the perception does. And the perception is that he spends so much time trying to explain it he makes himself look suspicious to the part of the public that cares.

Just a guess, but I’d say that morons take offense at being called morons. They prefer the term “alternative thinkers”. Don’t forget, you’re dealing with folks that got their asses kicked in the last two elections and still think they’re the vast majority. There’s also the link factor.

From one greatgrandma to another: Please document your accusations.

So a great many Americans believe Obama is a Muslim, and the number is growing. The real question is why is this opinion is shifting?

What would I have answered if asked the “what religion is Obama?” poll question? That would have entirely depended on the precise wording of the question.

What is a Christian, or a Jew, or a Muslim? I have many atheist or agnostic friends who are culturally Christian or Jewish. Is a Jew who does not believe in God still a Jew? Is a Christian who does not believe in the divinity of Christ but still celebrates the Christian holidays still a Christian? Is a young man who spends his most formative years as a practicing Muslim, a Muslim? That depends on your definition of Christian, Jew or Muslim. How you define a word, specifically, is all important. A person can be an atheist and still, culturally, be a Christian or a Jew. That is because he has internalized the Judeo-Christian value system inherent in our Judeo-Christian society. Has Obama?

Most of us who have grown up in America are, culturally, Judeo-Christians. That is true even for those Americans who are atheist or agnostic. Whatever our particular religious beliefs, the Judeo-Christian value system has likely shaped our fundamental value system. It is the cultural milieu we are surrounded by.

That is not the cultural or religious milieu Obama bloomed in. During his most formative years Obama lived in the world’s largest Muslim nation, in an observant Muslim family, attending a Muslim school. His friends from his Muslim youth remember him as moderately observant Muslim youth. If that had been me, I would likely have become culturally Muslim, identifying myself with the Muslim identity. I suspect that Obama did just that. Does that make Obama a Muslim?

Viewed this way, Obama may well be, culturally, a Muslim. Is it unreasonable to ask: Did Obama internalize the Muslim culture and value system, if not the specific religious doctrines of that religion? Is he “one of us?” How are we to judge? Just because Obama says he’s Christian does that prove him a Christian? Just because Ms. Sullivan says he was “a secular agnostic by default who became a Christian” does that prove his moral compass points toward the Judeo-Christian pole rather than the Muslim pole of his formative years? I don’t thinks so! Recall that old joke: “How can you tell when a politician is lying? His lips are moving.”

Just because a politician says a thing is true doesn’t prove it to be a lie, it only proves it likely to be a lie. When it comes to identifying the beliefs of a politician, I prefer that old adage “actions speak louder than words.” For those Americans who say that, since the election, they have come to believe that Obama is a Muslim, I think they are saying that, since the election, Obama’s actions have convinced them that Obama is, at least culturally, a Muslim; that he is not one of us. As a classic modern media maven of (in)tolerance, Ms. Sullivan can only respond with mindless adoration and faith in her “savior” and with raving insults, hatred and bile towards his detractors. So much for keeping an open mind!

Who is to say if the suspicion that Obama has more in common, in his heart, with our enemies than with our foreign enemies is correct? On this issue the people are always right. Either the people accept and believe in a leader as “one of us” or he is, de facto, not “one of us.” We see him embraces our enemies and insult our allies. He spits on our values and embraces the values of those who despise us. More and more Obama’s actions prove to U.S.:

Obama is NOT one of U.S!

Uh, oh! The MORANS have arrived. Did you notice they usually swarm on the weekends. Somebody on another site jiggles their hive, removes the queen bee, and they swarm. They find their temporary hive here at Swampland. Still in a moronic frenzy.

As per usual, these automatons overwhelmingly employ homogenized group-speak and rhetorical arguments. Marching orders?

@Amy Sullivan

Don’t you think it’s far more likely that Obama himself has caused this misconception among 18% of Americans — given his incessant pandering to Muslims here and abroad? Who can forget his Cairo speech? Or his address to the Turkish Parliament. Or his subservient bow to the Saudi King. Or his ambiguous Ground Zero Mosque lecture and back peddle. Or his recent request for NASA Administrator Charlie Bolden to “find ways to reach out to dominantly Muslim countries.” That’s a right — NASA — our most indispensable emissary for improving Muslim/American relations. Maybe he can get the Fish and Wildlife Commission involved, too.

But seriously, I think the MAIN REASON for this misconception can be found in Obama’s own enigmatic words. A smattering are listed below:

“The teacher wrote to tell my mother that I made faces during Koranic studies.”

“Many other Americans have Muslims in their family or have lived in a Muslim majority country. I know because I am one of them.”

“My father came from a Kenyan family that includes generations of Muslims.”

“As a boy I spent several years in Indonesia and heard the call of the azaan at the break of dawn and at the fall of dusk.”

“I have known Islam on three continents before coming to the region where it was first revealed. That experience guides my conviction.”

“If you actually took the number of Muslims who are Americans, we’d be one of the largest Muslim countries in the world.”

And perhaps you remember what Obama once told George Stephanopoulous in a memorable ABC interview. Stephanopoulous said, “But the McCain camp has never suggested you have Muslim connections.” After a bit of dodging, Obama responded, “You’re absolutely right that John McCain has not talked about my Muslim faith.” Stephanopoulous immediately interrupted to suggest that Obama had meant to say his “Christian faith.” Obama instantly agreed and quickly moved on. But if they were in the middle of a discussion about Obama wrongly being perceived as a Muslim, why in the world would Obama mean to say that John McCain has not talked about his Christian faith? It just didn’t make sense. Then or now. And you wonder why 1 in 5 Americans are confused, Amy?

I think it’s fair to say that 18% of Americans don’t really pay as close attention to politics as you and I do, Amy. So when they hear snippets from some of the words Obama has spoken and/or some of the news stories I’ve listed above (and there are many more), it’s easy to see where the confusion comes from. And to prove my point, allow me to conclude by citing a far more revealing number from this same poll — 43% of Americans DO NOT KNOW whether Obama is Christian or Muslim. So the confusion is not just among people who don’t particularly like the president. It’s really rather widespread.

So please don’t blame conservatives, Amy. I know that’s your job. But it makes you look silly.

I’m guessing “link factor” is probably correct.
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Marching orders would follow from that.
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Only reasons I even looked at this thread was the number and Neo’s piece.

They’re slumming. They come to a centrist site (far left to them) and put the feed bag on. Lots of noise. Much gulping. Unintentional humor.
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Btw, thanks so much for visiting my new blog/twitter/Facebook site. I usually don’t make fun of the blogwhores, but the idea popped into my head and left me helpless to resist.

“One of us.” An interesting term. If I read your argument correctly, and I think I do, only those who have been shaped by a Judeo-Christian cultural upbringing can rightly be considered “one of us,” in other words, American. So, those millions of Americans who come from Eastern cultures or Arabic cultures are not American? Not “one of us?” What about those born here, but with parents from “other” cultures who instilled their heritage and values in their children? Not “one if us?” So, the American value system is simply one of religio-cultural identity? Never mind such lofty concepts as tolerance and freedom. Never mind the constitutional values that helped shape this nation as one of inclusion and multiculturalism. No, those are merely distractions from what it is to truly be an American. I got it. Thanks for clarifying.
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Just because a politician says a thing is true doesn’t prove it to be a lie, it only proves it likely to be a lie.
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And, also, thanks for this. Now I know that you can prove something to be likely. Here I was thinking you can only prove something to be, or not be. But there’s a more vague area of concrete certainty as well. You learn something new everyday.

We need more Neo’s on the other side. Unfortunately, I think the right doesn’t see much difference between a real old-school conservative and Code Pink now. Reagan wouldn’t stand a snowball’s chance in hell in the republican party now. He’d never make it out of the primaries.

So a Times blogger calls people morons because they think Obama might be Muslim after hearing that his birth and adopted fathers were both Muslim and that Obama attended a Muslim grade school. Who really cares either way – but it IS NOT such a big stretch to think he might at least be sympathetic to Islam.

I am much more concerned about the leftist reporters who down-played Obama’s adult religious life at Trinity Church – under the mentor-ship of the raving lunatic Reverend Wright.

We know that Obama was very close to this nut-case, but all of the leftist reporters (morons) who hate conservatives – and were willing to do anything to get Obama elected – chose to ignore and downplay the fact that Obama sat in the pews of an insane America hater for almost 20 years.

Reporters who are moronic ideologues are much more dangerous to this country than a few uninformed people who don’t follow the news very closely.

While I would never seek out Time, I routinely read RealClearPolitics, which provides a compilation of the best columns from the left and the right.

Unfortunately for the left, this type of nonsense is as good as it gets these days from their side. Sometimes I can drive right by the train wreck but some days I just have to stop and comment.

“I had spent two years in the Muslim school … in the Muslim school, the teacher wrote to tell my mother that I had made faces during Koranic studies.”

-Barack Obama in “Dreams From My Father”, Page 154

This fact was censored by the MSM and Wikipedia.

Obama, and his Leftist propaganda toadies like Time, now have such little credibility, the most folks can’t go wrong be believing the exact opposite of whatever they tell us.

When one constantly and consistently takes the side of our sworn enemy Islam and the Quran), what is a person to conclude about them Then take into account the evidence.
The radical left wing community organizer in chief may not be a practicing muslim, but he sure imitates one in other respects.

nibbly this pretty much sums it up. Obama is not an American in heart, spirit and loyalty. He doesn’t have our background. He doesn’t share our values. He certainly does not respect our Constitution and our form of govt.

http://online.wsj.com/article/NA_WSJ_PUB:SB10001424052748703302604575294231631318728.html

excerpt from article above WSJ:

“A great part of America now understands that this president’s sense of identification lies elsewhere, and is in profound ways unlike theirs. He is hard put to sound convincingly like the leader of the nation, because he is, at heart and by instinct, the voice mainly of his ideological class. He is the alien in the White House, a matter having nothing to do with delusions about his birthplace cherished by the demented fringe.”

“If you want to strengthen the Southern border, you hate Hispanics..”
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First, more people are being deported under Obama than under Bush. So, we do not have a president who is easy on immigration.
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http://www.deportationnation.org/2010/08/new-data-deportations-surge-under-obama/
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Second, few of the illegal immigrants come across that boarder.
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Third, the Bush fence project was a complete multi-billion dollar failure.
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http://www.federaltimes.com/article/20100420/IT04/4200310/
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So, correct that to: “If you want to have a feel-good but useless fence on the Southern border which could never protect you from anything significant in terms of immigration, you are unaware of reality.”
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“…if you believe marriage is between a man and a woman, you are homophobic..”
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No, “if you claim that same sex marriage will ruin the marriage between you and your wife, you are making absolutely no sense ..”
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“…if you want that Mosque moved, you hate all Muslims…”
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First, just like Branch Davidians are blow your ass up Christians and Unitarians are famously mellow Christians, the terrorists were a radical sect of Wahabi Muslims living in, mostly, Suadi Arabia and the Mosque is being built by Sufi Muslims almost all either born in America or long time US residents.
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Second, this is a building with fourteen floors of open to everybody of all religions and only one floor dedicated to prayer.
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Third, this is replacing two, small existing Mosques nearby which date back over 35 years.
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Fourth, people in that neighborhood are not against the building. The further away you live from Lower Manhattan, the more POed you are about it. The closer you are, the less worried you are.
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Another correction:
“…if you want that Mosque moved but have no idea where to move it, how far away it is from Ground Zero, that it is primarily not a Mosque but an Islamic equivalent to YMCA, you have no idea what you are talking about and are butting your nose into a city you know nothing about.”
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“If you want to have a feel-good but useless fence on the Southern border which could never protect you from anything significant in terms of immigration, you are unaware of reality; if you claim that same sex marriage will ruin the marriage between you and your wife, you are making absolutely no sense; if you want that Mosque moved but have no idea where to move it, how far away it is from Ground Zero, that it is primarily not a Mosque but an Islamic equivalent to YMCA, you have no idea what you are talking about and are butting your nose into a city you know nothing about.”
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When conservatives can’t win arguments, they distort everything and then try to create conspiracy theories about the president secretly having another religion and not siding with the best interest of our country.

Excellent Post! The preponderance of evidence clearly show that Obama would choose islam over any detractor or perceived enemy of islam.

http://www.dontpressoneforenglish.com/2010/08/obama-says-islam-has-always-been-part-of-america/

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2010/06/-obama-tells-egyptian-foreign-minister-i-am-a-muslim-stealth-coup-on-the-white-house.html

http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/4671708-his-book-muslim-obama-says-hes-on-the-side-of-muslims

Subhuman, if you know so much more than us, there is something called “facts” which win arguments.
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You have random anger and insults.
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This wins nothing yet is very annoying like a mosquito flying around your ear “bzbzbzbzbzbzbzbzbzbzbz Obama’s Muslim bzbzbzbzbzbzbzbzbzbzbzbzbz Death Panel! Death Panel! bzbzbzbzbzbzbzbzbzbzbzbz Marxist -Muslim anti-constitution bzbzbzbzbzbzbzbzbzbzbz 16,500 Armed IRS agents bzbzbzbzbzbzbz… SWAT!”
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If you have no actual point to make STFU!

Being moronic is about not understanding or learning facts.
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Only morons think that disagreement when seeing the same facts is inherently a reflection of intelligence.
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You, clearly, have shown us all that you are one of those morons.
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We’re getting close to one fifth or even one fourth morons on these last pages, representative of our country as a whole.

As usual, you far left anti-American radicals got it wrong. we conservatives don’t hate Obama or Democrats. We just don’t agree with their ideology and plan to “remake” America into some kind of Marxist fascist socialist neo communist “utopia”.
We have seen the damage and pain that Marxism, etc… has done to humans, families, societies economies, and countries. What more proof do we need?

“As a creature of the left, he does not draw his strength from his personal beliefs, but uses his religion as a means to end…”
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Hold on!
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First, Obama speaks little of his faith. Most can agree on this. So, he is not using whatever faith he has to his advantage.
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Second, are you saying that the most religious liberal president Jimmy Carter used his Born Again Faith to win a second term or even the reason he won his first term?
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Clearly Carter did not gain or, at least, did not gain enough from his faith to win re-election.
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Obviously building houses and many other, very obviously benevolent things over the past 30 years has not been a means to political power for Carter.
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So, on the right, the most in-your-face religious president George W Bush (far, far, far more religious than his Episcopalian father, Ronald Reagan or Bill Clinton – even though Clinton had the highest church attendance of those four presidents) did he use his religion to win office and re-election?
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Absolutely!
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So, “As a creature of the left, he does not use his religion as a means to end since he would be unlikely to gain from this, so, perhaps he draw his strength from his personal beliefs …”
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I don’t know for a fact that he gains strength from his faith, but I do know that only conservatives gain votes for professing religion in the US.
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Outside of that, I more agree with your than disagree with you.

“some days I just have to stop and comment.”
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And those comments are insults?
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Well thanks, I guess, for taking the time.

hopey~
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You bring up some excellent points.
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But no one “causes” another person’s thoughts. If 18% of Americans think Obama is Muslim after hearing and seeing what you described, then the “cause” of that would more correctly be the ways in which that 18% processed what they saw and heard.
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It could be said that Obama might have been able to get more people to understand him differently if he had done or said other things, but, correct or not, it would be the premise of the theme of this blog posting that the 18% in question lack the mental capacity to have done that (hence the use of the term moron.)

When and where was Obama baptized? I guess I am a moron to ask. Wonder why the brilliant journolist forget to cite that simple fact.

ricardo4max~
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Your comments never seem to make much sense to me. Take this one:

When one constantly and consistently takes the side of our sworn enemy Islam and the Quran

1) constantly? (as in, never talks about anything else?)
2) consistently? (as in never back-peddled?)
3) our? (see below)
4) sworn enemy? (a body of thought about how to live and a book it is written down in can be an “enemy”? And it can place its left hand on a stack of Bibles, raise its right hand, and repeat after you, or perhaps get it notarized?)
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Really?
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The one I am the most curious about is your use of the term “our”? “Our” is the possessive form of “We”. So it begs the question: Who do you mean by “we”?
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I would like to know which community you are trying to exclude me from.

Yes 25% of Americans are idiots – many more of them Democrats as we can see from this Rasmussen poll:

Democrats in America are evenly divided on the question of whether George W. Bush knew about the 9/11 terrorist attacks in advance. Thirty-five percent (35%) of Democrats believe he did know, 39% say he did not know, and 26% are not sure.
Republicans reject that view and, by a 7-to-1 margin, say the President did not know in advance about the attacks. Among those not affiliated with either major party, 18% believe the President knew and 57% take the opposite view.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/bush_administration/22_believe_bush_knew_about_9_11_attacks_in_advance

davetomphl~
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That you ask does not make you a moron, but that you do makes me see you as someone who cares about things which do not matter. Whether or not Obama was baptized has absolutely nothing to do with whether he is or is not a Christian. I was baptized, but I am certainly not a Christian, because, for many reasons, I do not believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God.

i agree- why is he so secretive??what doesn’t he want the american people to see?? sooner or later the truth will win out!!

33mac~
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you mistake party unity for intelligence. People do not describe what they see, they see what they can describe. If one can only describe an R as a patriot, then one will only see patriotism in an R president. Substitute D for R and the statement still stands.
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Note that no more than 12% of Republicans said they were not sure, yet 26% of Dems and maybe as much as 25% of Independents said they were not sure. Only “I’m not sure” is a defensible answer. Those that would say that they know either way are seeing what they can describe, and, among those type of people in this poll, far more are Republicans.

contrary to your suggestion, it is the rest of the three quarters I would say are morons. Barak Obama is a muslim at heart but a christian by name only.You belonged to where your heart is not where your mouth claimed. He has had many opportunuties to express his faith but always choose to do the opposite.He spent 20years in a Jeremiah Wright’s church which is nothing but a social outlet for marxist theologians who employed chriatian terms to confuse their followers.barak Obama went to that church for political relevance not for a spiritual discovery. He rode on their wagon to get a political footing and he has succeeded. How many times has he attended church services since he moved into the white house? He was too busy to attend the national day of prayer event but was eager to rush pass everybody to celeberate the muslim ramadan.I have just found out that the so called elite of this society are really the most ignorant and to worsen the situation, they are too pompous to understand why common sense Americans has since written them off in any serious dialog. The press has became Obama’s apologist and for so long has abandoned her responsibilities.The press and the entire liberal left have lost every objectivity and entergrity and often resort to emotional statements.Anybody who diagree with Barak Obama must be a racist. anybody who objects to building the ground zero mosque is islamofobia and so on.Whenever any christian clergy voices his opinion the whole press will rise in chorus to crucify him.If it happento be a clergy of another faith they will be stampeding theselve over who will mount the most conviencing apology for that clergy.Something is wrong when the whole national press has turn itself into an instrument of carrying the government’s propaganda and becames an arm by which those in the ruling class use to deceive the masses. Sorry America you are dying one step at a time and your children are not different than the Romans when their cities were being plundered.My heart bleeds for this great country as I watch the foolishness of its children.You have bought into the lies of satan and like the Lucifer you will certainly fall and the world will not mourn but laugh at you.Before I stop, I will let you read it from me that Barak Obama is the beginning of the fall of this great country. I am sorry the first black man. like me. to became the president of this great country is not the best thing that had happened.There are some great black leader but not president Barak obama.I will live to see the day a true American whow happened to be a black man or woman will rise and give this nation a true leadership and not empty words.

“He lies about everything else.’
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Let me type this slowly so you can read better: we are not talking about George W Bush who lied about cutting taxes stimulating the economy rather than stimulating the coffers of the Republican Party, who lied about deregulation being good for the economy rather than being quick money followed by a disaster, who lied to get us into a war in Iraq. It is about Obama who delivered more than half of his promises for four years in twenty months.
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Maybe GWB is a Gay Muslim:
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http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=bush%20with%20prince%20bandar&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&biw=1440&bih=749
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But this about Obama.
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Bush a year and a half after he collapsed the economy in 2007. Obama is the new guy.

“Are One-Quarter of Americans Freakin’ Morons?”
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Yes, and they’re really proud of their ignorance too. They frantically go from lie to lie hoping that something sticks. He wasn’t born here. He’s a socialist. He’s the anti-Christ. He’s taking your freedoms away. He’s instituting Death Panels to kill grandma. He hates America. He’s taking our guns away. Why is he hiding his Kenyan birth certificate? Why does Michelle hate America? Why did Michelle wear a red dress to a MOH ceremony?
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Here’s the solution. Dress up in funny costumes, get drunk, carry signs around. Turn beet red shouting about how a minority is the vast majority and then throw your political power behind mental giants like Palin, Bachman, Rand and Angle. Chase those damned moderates out of your party too. They don’t pass the purity test. America will jump right in behind you.

Registered Democrats alone – not to mention Democratic voters – are 72 million voters.
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Obama voters were 53% of the United States.
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With so many people voting for Democrats recently, are you sure that you are not the moron?

83

Registered Democrats alone – not to mention Democratic voters – are 72 million voters.
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Obama voters were 53% of the United States.
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With so many people voting for Democrats recently, are you sure that you are not the moron?

Read more: http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2010/08/20/are-one-quarter-of-americans-freakin-morons/comment-page-4/?replytocom=192591#respond#ixzz0xI0cXY6l

This is a reply to balou8900 at 59 where I reposted it.

Heroin addict (John Lee Hooker),
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Maybe when you were high on heroin you didn’t notice much, but let me update you.
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Financial reform: promised and delivered.
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Stimulus Package: Promised and delivered, but, too small to get the job done.
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Single Payer Health Care Reform: watered down to become a carbon copy of Bob Dole’s proposal after negotiating with Blue Dog yellow bellied Democrats and bent over backwards for just one Republic party vote which never arrived no matter what he did.
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What did he lie about?
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Nothing.
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Now, go do what the real John Lee Hooker did, get off of heroin and come back making sense.

patrick~ I caution against committing the same mathematical hyperbole as did the Reaganers in declaring a “mandate” for him. 53% is not a big majority.

Read more just right here and you find a huge number of Koranic versus which tell you about brotherly love in addition to the hateful ones made famous by terrorists as well as many very hateful Biblical passages in addition to the ones of brotherly love made famous by Christianity being the dominant faiths in America.
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It is the reader of these books who make the difference since both books are indecipherable if you are looking for actual instructions.

“And the perception is that he spends so much time trying to explain it he makes himself look suspicious to the part of the public that cares.”
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Bush was the one who said that his favorite political philosopher instead of Jefferson or Locke was Jesus Christ.
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As an atheist I am very aware of how much Bible thumping a politician does and I have hardly heard Obama say anything about religion and like it that way.

Let’s get this sucker to 200 posts. Somebody say something nice about Nancy Pelosi.

You are a freakin’ libtard moron. There is plenty to indicate the annointed one is a muslim and few facts that prove he isn’t. The Dems loose Congress Nov and we send the Muslim/Socialist/cluesles/smug/community organizer packing. Just hope he doesn’t do any damage that can’t be undone.

uh . . .uh. . . .uh . . .
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hmmm
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better fall back on Frank Zappa
mimicing the voice of Jerry Lewis:
“La, la la, nice lady . . .”

“Democrats in America are evenly divided on the question of whether George W. Bush knew about the 9/11 terrorist attacks in advance..”
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One is an issue of fact since all a human being can know about another person’s theology is what they tell you about it and their actions. Obama prays in a Christian Church and had since college and proclaimed himself Christian. This is fact.
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What could be known but is not known if Bush knew or suspected a terrorist attack and decided to do nothing.
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That is opinion about a conspiracy theory.
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Fact despite the fact that Republicans never gained a majority of New York, New Jersey or Connecticut from 9/11 but used the victims as a campaign platform can tell you that 9/11 is why Bush won a second term after loosing the popular vote (very well documented) to Gore in 2000. So, he gained.
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Did he know and ignore it?
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Unknown.
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Did he put his own interest ahead of national interest in his presidency?
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Yes, in starting the Iraq War based upon known doctored intelligence doubted by the rest of the world.
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I say that Bush did not know about 9/11 in advance because he was not bright enough to see that it was his only means to keeping the presidency and it was not enough to hold him over without the Iraq War in 2004.
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So, one is opinion and the other is about fact.
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There is a difference.

that’s funny, even though I do not believe in an omnipotent God, I yet still prayed that Bush and Cheney wouldn’t do any damage that could not be undone — but since it happened anyway, we’ll just have to conclude there is no such imaginary being, and instead hope that some of the things that Obama has done will begin to crack the doors of maniacal corporate power so that someday we will be bale to actually undo the damages they have wrought.

Clueless and smug is how Democrats described GWB for eight years.
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Failed business man three times, not successful community organizer who temporarily turned down a huge paycheck from any one of several major law firms is new.
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I respect people who temporarily turn down large paychecks to work on what they believe in. I do not respect somebody who runs three of his father;s businesses into the ground before getting involved in baseball.
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Liar is what Democrats said about Bush so that, even though Obama has not been caught in a lie, he gets called a liar by the right wing marching in lockstep together.
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Religious extremist is what Democrats called GWB.
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So, Republicans make the provably false claim that Obama is a Muslim (as if that is always or even usually a bad thing rather than as insignificant as his shoe size).

Well, add in a majority of both houses and a combination of people voting for Democrats and against Republicans (unlike how Reagan had Democrats in the house all eight years and dominating the Senate – if I am not mistaken – six years) and it is a combined mandate of preferring the general coalition of Democrats against the coalition of Conservative Protestant Christians, jingoists, the very wealthy and large corporations which make up the coalition known as Republicans.
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In Reagan’s case, his acting won.
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In Obama’s case either the umbrella of the Democratic coalition won or the umbrella of the Republican coalition lost.

Wait, schools “teach too much in the way of social studies”? As in too much history and geography?
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Yeah, boy, students sure don’t need to learn any of that crap.

hey, how ’bout this?
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For a centrist, she still has something left?

a good analysis
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but I still worry about promoting the idea that the “majority” is not fragile. This “mosque” BS shows how, moronic or not, the pollsters and those that will respond to their questions for a feeling of 15 seconds of relevance are more easily swayed by neurolinguistics than by conviction.

c’mon, sacred. this is 199

leave it to a freakin’ moronic libertard to shout “200!” in a crowded blog and then duck out the side door.
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Let a man step in to finish the job

and then step out back for a little sacredh

do uptight, (imaginarily-)free market, my-god-is-better-than-your-god blog commenters use puns and poke fun at one another, or only try to character-assassinate “others”?

If the Tea Baggers want to be taken seriously they’ll have to dress up like historical women characters. Adding a turban with plastic fruit stuck on it ala Carmen Miranda would be a good attention getter too. And carry a wand with a styrofoam ball painted silver on the end of it. Use lots of glitter. And don’t forget the tinsle because right wingers are fascinated by motion and shiny objects.

mycophile — you are a liberal. Of course you do not believe in Jesus. Obama was not baptized. If he was baptized he would denounce his Muslim faith. Obama will never denounce his Muslim faith. He could do it easily. Just get baptized Mr. President.

Not one person in my immediate family was baptized. I come from a long line of heathens. I did keep a Bible in my room when I was a teenager. I hollowed it out and kept my stash in it.

Barack! Don’t let a conservative baptize you. They’ll try to drown your ass in the name of their lord.

First of all, you insult my great-great-grandmother, who lived to be 106.5 in Corpus Christie, Texas, for the last 56 years of her life, outliving all her siblings, children, 5 men, 25 preachers, the Great Depression, and neighbors who fell victrims to hurricanes. She was a devout Southern Baptist, and a life-long Democrat and Party-line voter. She never forgave George W. Bush for never calling her on even one of her over-100 years birthdays, despite my yearly requests on her behalf. Jesus Christ was never more real to anyone, and she would have voted for Obama, had she lived to.
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Secondly, you missed the part where I reported I was baptised, and yet it does not make me a Christian.
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Thirdly, you apparently you do not have the benefit of having read my conversations with others on this site about my politics
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My baptism into politics was as a Young American for Freedom (the youth arm of the Republican Party) in John Birch Orange County, California, with Bob Hope, John Wayne, and Richard Nixon on our advisory board. Still think I’m a liberal?

I was laughing so hard after reading this that I almost didn’t see #88

I thought you were a moderate.

my 88.2 was, of course, directed at davetomphl@88

mycophile, a serious question. First the republican party got hijacked by the evangelicals and then by the Tea Baggers. Do you think they can ever (our lifetime)get back to what they were 30-40 years ago? By that I mean a serious party that represents limited goverment, fiscal responsibility and personal freedom? I remember liberal republicans in the house and senate. They’re all gone now.
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It seems to me that they run on some of those issues now, but it’s only lip service. Most of my friends are conservatives and they have moved so far to the right that I barely recognize them.

sacred, you must mean “moderator”

I know but I ate a bunch of miniature Reese Cups and I have a sugar buzz going. They affect my ability to use discretion.

Are 25% of Americans Freaking Morons?

It’s say closer to 53%.

http://www.howobamagotelected.com/media-malpractice-research.asp

The majority of Obama voters in 2008 couldn’t correctly identify which party ran Congress at the time. That’s a bit easier than knowing if a guy born to a muslim father, raised in a muslim country, with the middle name “Hussein” is muslim.

I for one, don’t care if he’s muslim or not. It’s the socialism he espouses that’s the problem.

I feel your pain
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I can’t help but notice that I have been watching it happen ever since Reagan made it OK again to vilify groups of people, pushed alcohol/fraternities/sororities as therapy against rising hippiedom, and, then, close on its heels came virtual-world-interaction beginning to replace real-world social interactions.
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It reminds me of two things. One was a teacher of German I had in high school in 1969. He said that if we were ever to travel the world, we would come back much more “liberal”.
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The other is what the Council on Economic Development wrote in 1962 in promotion of their Adaptive Management for Agriculture plan to move 2/3 of the rural population off of the farms and into the cites They wrote: “Break up village life, because village life, since it prevents impersonal relations, is an impediment to change” (the change they were advocating for)
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Read that carefully. It says that the only way that people will go along with being cogs in a system of machines, dependent on that system for food, is by living a life devoid of personal relations. I’d say they did a damn good job achieving their goal, and when the generation now cutting their eye teeth on virtual socializing get to be adults, it’s gonna be an irreversible trend.
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Whenever I talk to 14 year-olds about being careful what they post on social sites, they look at me like I am crazy. Dopamine rushes make worrying about Big Brother antithetical.
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OK, got a little afield, but it does funnel back to your question: Limited government, fiscal responsibility, and personal freedom do not jive with the matrix — not psychologically nor logistically.
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Not even legalizing cannabis will change it now.
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Only an implosion.

OT, but before the last election a good friend of mine bet me that Obama wouldn’t win. He was convinced that the country would not elect a black man. We made the bet when McCain had pulled ahead right after the republican convention. I was convinced that once the country found out more about Palin that they’d lose. The bet was that the loser would vote for the opposite party’s presidential candidate in 2012. The bet was his idea.
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He hates Obama. We talked about our bet a few days ago and he says he can’t vote for Obama in 2012. He wants out of the bet. I proposed two options. The first is that he gives me $500. He can afford it. The second is that he votes a straight democratic ticket in both 2010 and 2012 except for president. He offered me $250 (at first he offered $100) and I declined. I once lost a bet to him and donated $100 to a candidate I hate. I didn’t try to get out of the bet I lost. I feel my offer is reasonable.

haney1010~
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Either you have a different definition of “socialism” than I do, or else you mean that the brand of “socialism” that Bush/Cheney implemented was more to your liking.

I also feel there is no going back. Demographics are changing any chance that ever had of happeming. Whites will be a minority in 40 years or less. I feel the republican has one of two options. They can continue rightward or split. A great candidate for them could delay or even partially defuse the trend, but I don’t see anyone like that on their horizon.
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Interesting discussion but I have to head off to work now. It’s cooled down to 80 and it’s raining.

excuse my stereotyping, but your friend sure sounds like most “(imaginarliy-)free market” advocates these days – when Capitalists win, they keep the spoils, when they lose, society bails them out.
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Capitalism used to mean “your risk = your consequences”.
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He gambled, he lost, he pays. Or next time it’s cash up-front

While I am not one of those one-in-four (or five) who think Obama is a Muslim – I also am not one of those one-in-two who think him a Christian. The evidence does not support such a conclusion.

A man can talk about faith all he wants – but faith produces actions. The legislative agenda (not to mention past voting record) do not speak of a man who is following the Lord. You shall know them by their fruits.

http://bethsaidafigtree.wordpress.com/2010/08/20/barack-the-manchurian-muslim/

there is one other way — embrace truly collaborative community. It is the only way to put power into the hands of the general populace, as a collective body of individuals.
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Too much theory and real-life story-telling to explain it all here (and I have posted some long portions of it on previous threads.) Whatever Party champions and manifested that approach would take the country by storm. But, to do it, they would have to truly value diversity (and not simply create a coalition of separate interest groups via individual issues, as both Parties tend to do.)
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Right now, most Rs are afraid of true diversity, So it is ironic that truly valuing it is their only salvation. In a truly collaborative process, it would quickly be discovered that, as long as people feel accepted as equals in community, practically each and every one will advocate for personal freedom, considerate behavior, community safety, fiscal responsibility, clean environments, wholesome living, personal responsibility, caring for the less fortunate among them without the need for forced charity, local sustainable economies, etc. They would find those kinds of basic human desires were in a super-super-majority, with very few people trying to hide behind a group label and throw rocks at the others. They would find that, in the absence of a need to defend their group against attempts at one-upmanship and ostracizing by other groups, almost everybody would be on the same page that individuals who insist on continuing to act like jerks, and only such individuals, need to be removed by the cops, no matter what banner they wave.

Actually, President Obama is a Republican plant whose mission is to destroy the Democratic Party as a viable political alternative for the foreseeable future. NOBODY could screw up so badly, on so many fronts, without intending to do so. The Democrats need to repudiate the President and nominate somebody with some sense. Joe Biden, maybe.

Dare I say: “Thank God!”
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Reagan seemed like he OK taking the risk of bringing on Armageddon, and George W seemed OK with accelerating the coming of the End Times, as God’s right-hand man.
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I say let the Lord go Himself where she must. Humans have always gravely erred in believing what they were doing was “following” the Lord. He shall reveal Herself only when it is time to, and not before,

‘cept maybe Dan Quayle

The statement of the prophet :” Every child is born in Fitra”

Fitra does not mean muslim, Fitra is the original nature!.. which means every child is born in aboriginal state.[original state]..

It also means that every child is born in a clean slate and their parents turn them to be either jew,christian,muslim,atheist,polytheist etc.

It’s interesting that aboriginal socities that are not affiliated with any of the major organised religions have a concept of God.

haney~
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My hat’s off to you if you understand the arcane rules under which Congress operates, well enough to be able to tell who is running it at any given time. When just one Senator can block all forward motion on a bill, just because they want to, and can even do it anonymously, how the heck can it be said that anyone is running the show?

nice clarification

Of course Obama is not a Muslim! How silly are the 18%/24% o Americans who believe that!

Also, how many foolish Americans also believed this lie:

“No matter how we reform health care, we will keep this promise: If you like your doctor, you will be able to keep your doctor. Period. If you like your health care plan, you will be able to keep your health care plan. Period. No one will take it away. No matter what.”
-Barack Obama, one of dozens of times he repeated this lie in order to sell ObamaCare

“[W]e said from the start that it was going to be important for us to be consistent in saying to people if you can have your — if you want to keep the health insurance you got, you can keep it, that you’re not going to have anybody getting in between you and your doctor in your decision making. And I think that some of the provisions that got snuck in might have violated that pledge.”
-Barack Obama, in a candid moment, admitting that he is a serial liar, and that ObamaCare is a hoax

Remember, Obama is not a Muslim because he says so. And Gibbs says he prays every day … exactly five times.

Modern capitalist are cowards, Adam Smith must be turning in his grave.I hate the idea of socializing loses and privatizing profits.

I think every capitalist should read: The Theory of Moral Sentiments by Adam Smith, so that we can have morality of the market place.

Greed will destroy man and humanity is a witness to that.

According to Islamic theology, human beings are born with an innate knowledge of tawhid, which is encapsulated in the fitra along with intelligence, ihsan and all other attributes that embody what it is to be human. It is for this reason that some Muslims prefer to refer to those who embrace Islam as reverts rather than converts, as it is believed they are returning to a perceived pure state.

The perfect embodiment of fitra was Abraham and Muhammad.

Narrated Abu-Huraira:
Allah’s Apostle said, “No child is born except on Al-fitra and then his parents make him Jewish, Christian or Magian (Zoroastrian), as an animal produces a perfect young animal: do you see any part of its body amputated?”
– Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 23, Number 441
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Note it does say his parantes make the child Muslim. They believe that anyone else who embraces Islam is a revert, not a convert.
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You were born in Islam if you like it or not according to that religion.
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Just wondering when you are going to perform your terrorist acts.

Come now, paul – an article as ridiculous as this one is a virtual invitation for insults.

Its interesting to go directly to the Pew Research report that provided the data this article is based on.

Seems 10% of Dems (and the same percent of those who approve of Obama) think he is a Muslim. A majority of Democrats cannot say he is a Christian (41% say they don’t know and 10%, again, think he is Muslim). I find this of particular note because in March, this total was only 39% (32% don’t know and 7 % Muslim) – what would cause his supporters to change their minds on something (that this article implies) should be well established fact?

11% of those who say Obama is a Muslim say they learned of this through Obama’s own words and behavior. Maybe the real morons are those who cannot see how actions can be a more important factors in this type of decision than words.

Yes, all politicians lie, and do you know why? they can’t afford to be honest because of people like you!

Has it ever occurred to you that we judge people from what they say or do and not from what they carry in their hearts?

Only God knows what man[woman] carries in his heart, if you cant work out that simple rule then we are all doomed.

Let’s judge each from what is open and known and leave speculations to satan, intentions and thoughts are from the realm of the unseen, we have no access to them except from what is manifested.

Which actions or words of Obama make him muslim?

In response to your question, Amy: yes, one quarter of Americans are “freakin’ morons,” but it’s not the quarter that recognizes Obama’s Muslim faith. It is the quarter that continues to support this incompetent, bumbling, self-absorbed opportunist after his sorry performance during the first 38% of his presidency. The other 75% of us are not socialists, and have no desire to become one. We’re all counting the days to Nov 2, so we can at least de-fund this madness.

The exact question was “Before this past election, which political party controlled both houses of congress?” and if you did not know the answer to this you should be too ashamed to vote.

And I suspect the socialism in question is the kind that involves state control of the means of production such as the takeover of most of the US auto industry and – when Obamacare goes into effect – virtual control of an industry that represents a sixth of the economy. I don’t recall either of those prior to 2008.

Yes Zack, it’s my fault that Obama is a serial liar. Or is it George Bush’s fault? My, how evil are those fear-mongering Tea Partiers who said this:

“Don’t say the law will reduce costs and deficit.”

Well no, actually that was said by the Herndon Alliance in a highly confidential presentation for FamiliesUSA, who are huge supporters of ObamaCare.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0810/41271.html

I suppose “people like me” made Obama lie about this too.

Yes “all Presidents lie”. That is a logical fallacy known as “argumentum tu quo” (they all do it).

The genuinely stupid morons are people like Amy who actually believe anything Obama or his lap dog media says.

freedomfan@95~
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I have heard a quite a good rebuttal to your argument about Obama having lied about these things. But I cannot recall all its details right now, so I wonder if you would please say what about what you quoted are you claiming to be a lie, and if it is about not having one health plan taken away from one, who has had their health plans taken away by whom?
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freedomfan@95.2~
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1) Well, if Obama is a serial liar, there actually is an argument that could be constructed that could blame it on Bush — If Bush was, also, and in the process got away with do much mischief, the culture of the game changed to make it necessary to fight fire with fire.
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2) Not sure what you mean about the statement “Don’t say the law will reduce costs and deficit.”, but aren’t costs going up because they were going up anyway and are there not measures in place to slow that below where it was going to go?
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3) Perhaps I missed something, but I did not read the argument of zach702@95.1 that “all Presidents lie” to be argumentum tu quo(sic). I read it as saying that politicians lie because when they tell the truth they give ammunition to people to accuse them of having not told the truth before. zach702′s example of that would be Obama admitting he might have failed to keep a promise
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Your argument, however, does strike me, itlslef, as an attempted argumentum tu quoque. If Obama now admits he cannot keep a promise, he was not telling the truth every time he made the promise.
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However, it is constructed backwards and thus is an illegitimate logical fallacy argument. The legitimate form is to discredit a position by asserting the failure of its presenter to act consistently in accordance with that position. But you are not arguing that Obama’s admission now that his promise will not have been kept is not credible because he said the opposite before. — That would be tantamount to saying that Obama’s promises will be kept.

You are asserting that Obama is now lying so he must have always been lying.
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That ignores the possibility that he could either be telling the truth now and/or at all other times. If his promise will not be able to be kept, he is not now lying, because he is saying his promise may not be able to be kept. If he believed it when he said it before, he was not lying, Etc.

rrdrrd@96`
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Maybe there are people who misinterpret actions due to one particular prejudice or another.

As an actual socialist, I’m sorta disappointed with Obama. Not far enough to the left for my tastes, really.

As I said at the beginning of this thread:
Stupid, Stupid, Stupid!
Do those on the reactionary right not understand how stupid their reasoning is? No, because they only listen to thier own echo chamber.
Stupid, Stupid, Stupid!

You dont want honesty and tha’s why you get lied too, in life you get what you deserve.In this life if all you want to see is evil then evil you shall see.

And if you want to see good ……………

rrdrrd~
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thanks for the survey question clarity
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For the question “Before this past election, which political party controlled both houses of congress?”, do you know the choices given and the tally for them? I, for instance, if given a choice not to, would have answered neither “R” or “D”. Not because I didn’t know the by-party numbers of seats in each house, but because I know “control” is not strictly a function of party.
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Interesting take you have

if you did not know the answer to (which political party controlled both houses of Congress before the election) you should be too ashamed to vote.

You ignored my angle, but that’s OK. You seem to be of the opinion that making good decisions about which candidates would make the best office holders requires caring about partisan scorecards.
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I don’t share that opinion
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Regarding socialism, I always thought it included state ownership of the means of production, not just state control, although with unequal distribution of the productions. I think that what you are referring to is an extreme form of temporary regulation, combined with a chance to seize assets with which to pay a portion of the debt owed to society for economic hardships burdens society had to shoulder as a result of the regulatee’s actions.
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I question the characterization of “Obamacare” you gave, both in the use of that term and in degree of “control” that the federal government will have over the health care industry beyond the reasonable and prudent bounds of a Capitalism that is properly-regulated to curb its predatory incentives. But I could be wrong.
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And we agree about 2008. That was the year in which Bush ordered the federal government, and then asked Congress for and got permission to ordered the federal government to more, buy ownership positions in major financial institutions
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That’s what I meant by maybe that was a more palatable form of the kind of “socialism” you speak of. The kind that only owns financial companies.

well, looks like zach@95.4 just demonstrated that there can be at three interpretations of the same words, and only the author can know for sure. That’ll teach me not to comment on responses to posts whose authors have not yet responded to them.
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I still like what I saw in his argument.

I sometime wonder who is lying, the accused or the one accusing.

If they cannot be a honest debate and respect in a democracy, then it’s time to …..

I think the right and the left have both failed to be honest with the America people, as this condition continues the masses will suffer….while the minority from each side will be cheering for it’s on side.

I believe the public hold the key, if they dont grow-up then they will played by both side again and again…in the meantime the corporate beast will be busy looting booty and getting fatter and fatter.

easy, now. Don’t let ‘em get to ya’. That’s what they think of you.

Hey author, you’re the moron. The Pew poll says 18% think the president is a Muslim. You call that a quarter of Americans? Try not even a fifth.

As to the substance of your argument, can you really blame Americans for being confused about the president’s faith? Has he been photographed once going to Church on Sunday since he’s been president? Doubtful since he clearly prefers the golf course.

Perhaps maybe if the media didn’t slobber all over the president when he was campaigning for the job and instead did some real reporting on Reverend Wright and his sermons, Americans would be less confused about the faith the president practiced for twenty years while sitting in the pews at Trinity United.

Given 53% voted for Obama, that is the correct percentage of morons. However, giving people the benefit of the doubt, some might have been legitimately mislead into thinking this guy would be good for America. In this case, the correct percentage of morons would be those that vote for him in 2012 after seeing how ridiculously bad his policies and governing are.

By the way, to correct one of the many errors in the article, the sentence:
If anything, Obama was a secular agnostic by default who became a Christian once he reached adulthood and started thinking seriously about faith.

Should read
If anything, Obama was a secular agnostic by default who became a Christian once he reached adulthood and started thinking seriously about running for political office.

Is it possible that Obama became a Christian because he started thinking about a career in politics? Or, is that too cynical a thought?

You are correct mrharfro. That only equates to approximately 6.5 MILLION people. That is a sizeable group of people, yes?

My bet is on that one oldpossum2. He wouldn’t had a snowballs chance in hell of being elected President had he come out on day one and announced that he was a Muslim. Any lame brained idiot would know that one.

Could be – but not very likely among his supporters is it?

By the way, long post in reply to comments re socialism disappeared. Will rewrite later if it does not return from review limbo.

Mycophile

First, no I am not ignoring your “angle.” I am denigrating it as something so unsupportable and disingenuous that you ought to be as embarrassed as all those people who lacked knowledge of basic current events (as opposed to “partisan scorecards”) should have been in the last election. C’mon, if you are voting for change, you really have an obligation to know what constitutes the status quo. And your claim that you think holding majorities in both houses does not constitute control sounds like someone claiming they don’t know what a trigger on a gun does – I might believe it if you had lived in a vacuum your entire life and never seen or heard of a gun but I do not believe it of anyone who is a citizen of the USA.

As for the socialism issue, while I meant to type 2009 (rather than 2008) I will still take the bait. The devil is in the details and you seem to be unaware that Bush called for the acquisition of preferred stocks, warrants, and other vehicles that fixed the financial institutions’ balance sheets but come WITHOUT voting rights. In other words, control. Yeah, I was much more comfortable with that, as opposed to the micromanagement of the private sector that has been a hallmark of the Obama admin and the primary reason that unemployment remains so high and a double dip appears to be a high risk right now.

Finally, yes, you are wrong about Obama’s health care plan; it goes so far beyond mere regulation (mandating the creation of products never in existence before AND mandating that people buy them) that it is clearly controlling both the means of production and its distribution. Marx defined socialism as the transition from capitalism to communism, so it can be a little “gray” in its defintion but nothing Bush did comes close to the trajectory or speed of the Obama admin in moving towards policies have failed in the extreme with true communist countries and led to decades of low growth, low incomes, and high unemployment for decades in the halfway houses of socialism that dominate western europe.

Yes.

“Are One-Quarter of Americans Freakin’ Morons?”
-by Amy Sullivan of Time magazine

Funny thing is that Amy thinks that there is absolutely no evidence for anyone to believe that Obama could be a closet Muslim.

So Amy feels very intellectually superior to those “morons”. Yet “intellectual” Amy is quite willing to believe the ObamaCare will not add to the deficit or cause health premiums to rise. Who is the moron here, Amy?

“[I]f you actually took the number of Muslim Americans, we’d be one of the largest Muslim countries in the world.”
-Barack Hussein Obama, obviously delusional

A reputable survey by Pew puts the number of Muslims in the US at 1.8 million. This would make it the 48th biggest Muslim country, after Indonesia, Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Turkey, Egypt, Iran, Nigeria, China, Ethiopia, Algeria, Morocco, Afghanistan, Sudan, Iraq, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Uzbekistan, Yemen, Tanzania, Syria, Malaysia, Niger, Senegal, Ghana, Tunisia, Somalia, Guinea, Kenya, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Burkina Faso and Tajikistan, France, Libya, Jordan, Israel, Turkmenistan, Uganda, Kyrgyzstan, Mauritania, Germany, Kuwait, Oman, Eritrea, Lebanon and Serbia and Montenegro – and just above Britain, which would be the 50th.

Hey Amy, is your pal Barack a “Freakin Moron”?

“Obama is not an American in heart, spirit and loyalty.”
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That is an unsupported claim.
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He spent nearly all of his childhood and all of his adult life in the United States, was educated at two of the most elite colleges in the United States due to his own merit.
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He has never worked for a foreign government.
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He has, unlike Poppy and Dubbya Bush worked with or for Saudi Arabian companies.
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Being in elected office is serving one’s country because the pay is dramatically lower than that of any counterpart in the private sector.
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Senators earn $174,000 per year while CEOs of fortune 500 companies earn about 100 times as much.
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The president makes $400,000 – about half as much as a partner at a law large law firm.
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So, your allegation that he does not have his heart here is absurd but can not be proven one way or another unless we could read the synapses in his brain.
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Democrats had long alleged that GWB was looking for big, big money by selling out as much as he could to big business for a post presidential career getting retroactive bribes in the forms of speaking fees and the like.
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Now conservatives are dying to make the same claim about Obama.

“Yet “intellectual” Amy is quite willing to believe the ObamaCare will not add to the deficit or cause health premiums to rise. Who is the moron here, Amy?”
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Freedomfan,
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Did you notice in cities and towns large hoards of uninsured people wandering around dying of cancer, coughing from TB, etc, etc?
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No?
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Well, if they weren’t, was it magic which stopped the uninsured from coming down with such illnesses?
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Was it the power of prayer?
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Was it private charities?
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No, the uninsured got ill almost as often as the insured.
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Who paid for their care?
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Hospitals.
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Where did the hospitals get the money from?
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The hospitals would recover the money paying for the uninsured by charging the insured $10 for aspirin, $15 for a tooth brush, $25 for $5 bandages… etc, etc.
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The new insured will be paid for out of the pockets of private businesses instead of a tax increase, but, those newly insured will receive preventive care and be ill even less than they were and will not be financed in their care with $10 aspirin, etc, etc.
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So, the insured will have cheaper hospital visits and, therefore, premiums will go down.
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“Who is the moron here, Amy?”
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You are.
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Well, you had to ask, so, I thought somebody should answer you.

“This would make it the 48th biggest Muslim country.”
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If you follow that logic, are we the second largest, after Israel, Jewish country?
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Obviously one refers to a country as a “Jewish country”, a “Muslim Country” or a “Christian Country” either by self identification or meaning that it is either a majority or, at the very least, plurality Muslim.
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Are we, also, the fourth largest Catholic Country?
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No, we are a mixed country with a majority Protestant Christians and not by any reasonable measurement on the list of “Muslim Countries”.
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You’re playing dumb word games.
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1.8 Million isn’t even enough people to fill Queens or Brooklyn and nobody would say that Queens or Brooklyn is the entire United States.

You are the moron that this piece is talking about, you keep up reflecting back!!

Apparently PatrickSartor is what passes for an intellectual in Lib circles. He states equates savings by hospitals from covering the insured with reducing the federal deficit.

Uh no, Patrick. Hospital spending is not all financed by the taxpayers — not by a long shot.

Only a Lib could believe that you could insure 30 million more Americans, at a cost of 1 trillion dollars over 6 years, and not add to the federal deficit.

As for health insurance premiums, they are already skyrocketing.

Anyone, who believes in the goodness of ObamaCare or the integrity of Obama, is the moron.

@96.3~
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me@96.2: Maybe there are people who misinterpret actions due to one particular prejudice or another.
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you@96.3 not very likely among his supporters is it?
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I say it is not only likely, but unlikely not to be true. Darn few people have no prejudices.

What makes a muslim?

It is anyone who says, “There is no other object of worship[ilahi] except God[Allah] and Muhammad is his messenger.

If Obama doesn’t believe that then he ain’t a muslim wether his father is muslims or not!!

None of us know what is in heart, so peddling speculation as fact is deceiving ourselves.

rrdrrd@ 90.5~
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good clarifications, thank you
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1) My argument was not disengenuous, it was a device to open the door to making several points. One was that the pervertedly-named “fillibuster”, and/or the “individual block”, etc, are also “control” techniques which do not require one’s party being in the majority. What they require is the nerve to be a stick-in-the-mud.
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I knew what definition of “control” you were likely using, and that it was likely the same definition that the survey intended to be using, and it was the definition that the respondents would most likely use, and that those, then, that did not know the answer to that question by that definition were obviously ignorant of that statistic.
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You make several assumptions, one incorrect assumption being that everyone that voted for Obama was voting for “change”. For instance, I’ll bet some of them were voting against having a Republican, just like their motivation for voting for president has always been.
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But I find part of your underlying argument to be valid. That is, that more informed voters are potentially better voters. However, I submit that there are far more important things to be informed about as a voter than which political party has majorities in houses of Congress, and I submit that the ignorance of those other kinds of key facts among those who voted for McCain/Palin at least rivaled that kind of ignorance among those who voted for Obama/Biden.
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Your continued insistence on the importance of knowing which Party had majorities in each or both houses suggests that you ascribe to the notion that “change” requires that one party “control” congress. While that MAY be true, that is a sad statement on what has become of our government.
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Sorry to disappoint you, but I shall not be embarrassed that I object to feeding that paradigm. I vote for individuals, not political parties.
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2) You seem to have made it clear that you support the idea of carte-blanche, massive government funding of financial institutions. I hope you realize that is very anti-”Free”-Market Capitalism.
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That’s OK with me that you support the idea, but It would not be OK with me for you to call it what it is not.
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What is your view on how the government should protect the public from being taken unscrupulous advantage of by the financial institutions that they give such funding to? What measures did Bush put in place in that regard?
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3) The “double-dip” you refer to might be because of a coming collapse of the commercial real estate market, the mortgage insurance market, and the ongoing, insane, evolution of the creation of new “derivative” structures. It might be because banks have been refusing to lend their bail-out money to small businesses, instead parking it in Federal reserve banks, paying their execs ludicrous bonuses and otherwise hunkering down. What in the type of government involvement in private business that you are comfortable with would prevent that?
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4) I don’t like the Heath Care Reform as-is. I consider it Health Insurance Industry Care. However, if you consider health insurance to be a private enterprise in a great Capitalistic system (maybe you do not?), then I think you have to ask yourself why they insisted, from the git-go, on a deal with an individual mandate. My answer is that the captains of private business are not defenders of Capitalism — the system they want is one in which government is a means to achieve selective advantage in the marketplace, to provide a social safety-net in the event of massive failure in business, but for society to get as little of the profits of success in business as possible..

@ 96.3~

It appeared, and I replied to it @ 90.6

Is there anyone out there who actually believes that Barack Obama would ADMIT he’s a muslim? Knowing this is going to hit a nerve, I’m going to say it anyway. I don’t believe Obama is a Christian. And yes, I believe he would lie about it.

Oh and don’t tell me that he would never lie about it because he’s a Muslim (Gotcha!) and not allowed to lie. They do it all the time and are permitted to for the benefit of Islam.

See, http://crombouke.blogspot.com/2010/01/twelve-tactics-of-taqiyya.html.

Amy got over 500 posts on her last two threads. I’m impressed.

Reasonable response for the most part – a few clarifications – while I consider knowing the make up of the congress to be important, I do so not so much on the basis of its stand alone value as i do its status as an indication of overall interest in and understanding of current political issues. Someone who is under the mistaken belief that Republicans controlled both houses of congress (as, apparently, more than a third of Obama voters were) is clearly someone who is highly unlikely to understand any contemporary federal issue. (And the subsequent Wilson poll which queried both those who voted for McCain and those who voted for Obama clearly showed that the level of misinformed or underinformed voters was much higher on the left).

By the way, I do not assume all who voted for Obama did so on the basis of change – that would technically be a straw man on your part – but enough did that it is a significant factor in his victory. And, on another technicality, i believe that your admission that your answer about “control” was a device makes it disingenuous (“1. Not straightforward or candid;,… calculating”). No disrespect or malice intended – rhetoric ought to be calculated.

I also only said i was “more comfortable” with the Bush approach (socialism lite?) than the current approach.
Claiming I “support the idea of carte-blanche, massive government funding of financial institutions” would be straw man 2. I would have just taken the toxic assets off the market and let a bunch of the worst offenders fail (it worked in the S&L crisis)

Finally (only because of time constraints), I will say that i do not approve of the insurance companies’ stance on the mandate either but I understand their need to preserve the viablity of their companies in the face of a seriously bad set of legislative constraints on their businesses.

Taqiyya was practised by minority muslim sects[ shia's,ibadiya,ismailia and ahmadia] in majority sunni governance.[Sunni rule]

These sects were considered by majority[sunnis] as heretics and in order to survive they hid their belief system.

This practise was also practised by jews of Spain at the time of the inquisition after they were forced to convert to catholicism, while declaring their christian faith in public they actually stayed true to their jews faith in private[secret]

It is interesting to know that Shia’s consider majority muslim[sunni] to be non-belivers while sunni consider them to be heretics except their schoolars.

P.s Shia’s are the party of Ali[ Fourth Caliphate and his progeny]

rrdrrd@90.7~
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1) I will not argue with nor confirm the poll’s report, since I have not sufficient insight into its methods or analysis. However, to accept your inference that the D’s showed a greater level of ill-informed would require believing that they were also more ill-informed on other elements.
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2) My declaration that you held an assumption that everyone who voted for Obama did so on the basis of change was not intended to be a straw man. It was due to your comments that ”if you are voting for change, you really have an obligation to know what constitutes the status quo”, as it was this statement that immediately followed your opinion that voters ought to have ”knowledge of basic current events” Perhaps I misinterpreted you.
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Technically, who holds majorities in either or both houses was not a “current” event at the time of the election, but you seem too sincere for me to quibble with language. I think I know what you are trying to get at.
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3) After I “submit” ed my 90.6, I realized the truth of what you later responded with – that you had only written that you were “more comfortable” with the Bush approach (which was how I framed the original question of you concerning that.) My apologies for mischaracterizing that.
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4) You wrote:

I will say that i do not approve of the insurance companies’ stance on the mandate either but I understand their need to preserve the viablity of their companies in the face of a seriously bad set of legislative constraints on their businesses.

That could sound like you suggesting that the insurance companies only demanded a mandate after they saw what the final law was going to read. That would have meant that Obama had the final language already written to show their famous lobbyist on Day One. Please clarify.

also # 90.7
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I had to appreciate your clarification regarding the use of the term “disingenuous”.
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I did confuse the judgmental connotations the word is usually intended to carry, with its literal meaning.
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But I suspect you meant for some of that type of connotation to be conveyed when you first used it, and I picked up on it.
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I don’t have to be correct about that, though.
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My “control” argument served several purposes. The way it was constructed was, indeed, calculated to best achieve them all with the least words. One purpose it served that was not spelled out in its original presentation was the one it achieved when it got you to post in response to it so that this dialogues could ensue. As you have seen, nothing I wrote regarding the argument did I believe was false, nor, in my view, unimportant to the subject matter.

1) No disrespect intended but I truly believe that the political left is less well informed and less skilled at reasoning than the right to some significant degree. The Zogby/Wilson polls (and others) are only a part of it. One of the Dems most consistent voting blocs for decades has been those with no HS diploma and their votes have been enough to be the margin for several Dem victories in the past 50 years or so. On another level, take a look at John Haidt’s work on moral decision making. He does not make a value judgment on his work but he definitely makes a case that liberals make moral decisions using only 2 reference planes while conservatives factor in 5. It is a longer case than I care to make at this hour and it is not a blanket condemnation of the left ( there are many brilliant people on the left – if I ever find someone comparable to Moynihan to vote for, I’ll do so gladly) but I think a better education system in this country would generate fewer votes on the left. It is not a coincidence that a lot of people shift from left to right as they grow older and learn more.

2) Points 2 and 3 are well covered – thanks.

3) Regarding insurance companies, what they saw from the start was the same thing I saw from the start; a political perfect storm that would make their lives miserable (as well as everyone who runs a business or is in the healthcare field – my personal situation meets both criteria). The debate over healthcare reform did not start with this admin and the likely strategies and results were vaguely predictable once the election results were in. I did not think it would be as bad as it is (seems to be I should say – I am still trying to dig through it all) but I am sure that the insurance companies had people who did. They covered their butts by pushing for the result that would allow them the greatest chance to offset the inevitable losses by increasing the volume of coverage, especially among the relatively healthy population of younger people who currently opt out for a decade or so without coverage.

4) Regarding your final post, I repeat that calculation is not a bad thing – I just thought it was a little overplayed in this instance. I am confident of your sincerity.

I think you all seriously overestimate 18% of Americans, in particular that 18%. Muslim is just the new n-word. This poll gave them the opportunity to call him the n-word without being told that they can not say that. That is all that is going on.

Ricardo, it’s funny that you should say that, because I was thinking the same about you. That you are not American in heart, spirit, loyalty and also in IQ above a stick’s. I’m also suspicious of your foreign name — what kind of name is Ricardo anyway? Doesn’t sound American to me.
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Ricardo, I hope the INS is monitoring the boards under the Patriot Act, because I think the Cheneys might be interested in your immigration status.
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Mrs Sullivan.

I am shocked that ‘Time’ has sunk to the level it has as to let a ‘writer’ post an article labled “are one quarter of American……….”. You make you stand very obvious. The title and topic of your artical show just how much of a ‘freakin moron” you yourself are. People belive by what they see (sad as far as a faith is concerned), We see a ‘president’ supporting anything that will make him popular. We see a president who is concerned nothing about the American people but his image.

To Time magazine: I find it dissapointing that you would print such insulting and obiviously bias trash.

Going to church makes you a Christian just as much as sleeping in a garage makes you a car.

The United States of America was founded on Judeo-Christian beliefs. The colonist who left England did so because they were persecuted. Try to dig deep and recall some American History, you know, William Penn, the Quakers, Church of England vs Catholicism? America has and continues to give the freedom to worship to all. It does not change the fact that it was Christian men who fought and died in the Revolution to secure that. Where were all those Muslims then?
We, Christians, believe in the Holy Trinity Jehovah God, Jesus, son of God made flesh, and the Holy Spirit or Ghost; a Virgin birth, death, resurrection, transfiguration and a return of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. We are commanded to love our fellow man,YES even our enemies, to teach the way to eternal life, provide the rites of baptism and the Holy Sacraments. There is no commandment given by God that teaches us to pull a sword out and behead a non believer. We do not stone to death those who break the commandments. Jesus, upon seeing a group of men about to stone a woman for infidelity, told them that “he who is without sin, should throw the first stone.” Our laws are based on the Ten Commandments. Do you think their ideas of enforcement is acceptable?
There are now discussions of whether or not Muslims can bring charges of violation of church and states in their enforcement of Sharia Law! How many people who are commenting on sites such as this even know what acts are condemned under Sharia Law? Drinking and gambling are condemned. Homosexuals are sentenced to death, there are no Gay Rights, No Alcoholics or Gamblers Anonymous. Sex? Not if you are single. Affairs? Not if you want to live. The sentence? Stoning. Freedom of Speech? Not if you have any negative remarks against the practices of Muslim teachings! Theft? Cut off a hand. Commit assault, get ready for the same treatment. Unless of course you are a female sexual assault victim, then your family has to kill you because of the shame you bring on them. Well, that should cut down on the number of Rape Counseling Centers, and court cases to convict rapists and pedophiles (13 year old girls are murdered if raped, too, you know).
So, are Americans a bunch of freaking morons? NO. People like you are the freaking Morons. You want to be noticed, you want to be “a radical thinker” “politically correct; you think Obama, because he was too gutless to say the mosque should be built somewhere else, case closed, is a hero. Maybe we have it all wrong. The suicide bombers didn’t hate Americans, No, they just used those jets as a new form of demolition to clear the way for the mosque.

Why not try fighting for Christians instead of constantly trying to rob us of more of our fought and died for freedoms.

Calling us morons is a prime example of your bias and discrimination. Not to mention your own lack of religious tolerance for Christians, Catholics or Jewish faiths

Kayak,

You are the moron here!, this is called a blog and yes! all presidents are concerned about their image. why? because shallow electorate like you are only concerned about style.

In life you get what you deserve, our leadership both on the right and on the left are a mirror image of ourselves…the less substance we have the easier for them to manipulate us.

They lie to you because you buy it or that’s what you believe.This country is not based on facts or proof anymore…we all follow conjucture.

So if homosexuality is not a sin why then did God rain the city of Sodom and Gomorrah with fire and brimstone.Now dont tell me that being gay is not a sin in chrstianity :

“If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.”
(Leviticus 20:13)

Now Jesus raises the standard of sexual morality by saying….”You have heard that it was said,:27 ‘YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY’; 28 but I say to you, that everyone who looks on a woman to lust for her has committed adultery with her already in his heart” (Matthew 5:27-28)

Christians condeming muslims for their ‘sacred law’ is like the pot calling the kettle black!!

The separation of church and state was made in order for people of all faiths and no faith to be equal under the law and have freedom of religion.Some of our founding fathers were freemasonic who believed that religion was a tyranny over man…why? beacuse each group wanted to impose it’s own faith.

And yes Muslims were here too, they were brought as slaves from Senegal,Gambia,Ginue Bissau, Mauritania…so muslim slaves are part of the America story.

Life is too short to waste in disputations…cant’ we just wait and find out how God thinks of it.

The atheist believes when we die and it’s all over, as for the jews,christians and muslims…God will judge you, and that prerogative will be God’s alone in the next life.

Just chill everyone!!

The Freakin’ Morons in America are the people who continue to make excuses for Obama.

I suspect that at least 10% of Americans consider it funny to lie to pollsters.

The only Morons are the poeple who voted for Obama.

Below is only one reference on how it’s okay for Muslims to lie. Read the rest at: http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/toler/lying_sin.html

And of course there are many more examples and references on how it permissible for Muslims to lie as a simple google search will show.

‘Let not the believers take the disbelievers as ‘Awliyaa’ (supporters, helpers) instead of the believers, and whoever does that, will never be helped by Allaah in any way, except if you indeed fear a danger from them” [Q. 3:28].

The reason why I begin with a verse warning Muslims to refrain from taking non-Muslims as friends is to illustrate the mandate that Muslims are under which demands from them to associate with non-Muslims only for a very specific purpose, which is to lead the ‘infidel’ into the ‘House of Islam’, chattel slavery2, or death. Lying is not only permitted to achieve this goal, but encouraged3. The Muslim is in fact required to lie in order to change the host society into an Islamic nation and merge the old culture into one in which there is no religion but Allah’s [Q. 3:19]4.